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Re: Jason and the Whales
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Jason
Apr 18, 2012, 4:01:15 PM4/18/12
to
In article <dfritzin-49446F...@news.eternal-september.org>,
David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <Jason-17041...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > In article <dfritzin-D229E8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Jason-17041...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-16041...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread the true word,
> > and to
> > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them any better
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > Stalin?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people mentioned
above
> > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In other words,
> > > > they were
> > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people they
> > murdered was
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> > > >
> > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the USA--they did
> > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> > >
> > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in the Bible were
> > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only condoned
> > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that god, you
> > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on two cities
> > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct wars.
>
> The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, which
> would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japanese.
> Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent the
> Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
>
> What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <Jason-17041...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > In article <dfritzin-D229E8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Jason-17041...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-16041...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfri...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread the true word,
> > and to
> > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them any better
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > Stalin?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people mentioned
above
> > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In other words,
> > > > they were
> > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people they
> > murdered was
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> > > >
> > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the USA--they did
> > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> > >
> > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in the Bible were
> > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only condoned
> > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that god, you
> > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on two cities
> > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct wars.
>
> The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, which
> would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japanese.
> Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent the
> Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
>
> What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
Wombat
Apr 19, 2012, 3:48:53 AM4/19/12
to
On Apr 18, 10:01 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. Was Tokyo a war
target?
> In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. Was Tokyo a war
target?
linuxgal
Apr 19, 2012, 7:02:56 AM4/19/12
to
Wombat wrote:
>
> IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. Was Tokyo a war
> target?
Civilian areas have been war targets since Sherman's march from Atlanta
>
> IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. Was Tokyo a war
> target?
to Savannah.
Wombat
Apr 19, 2012, 7:50:22 AM4/19/12
to
David Fritzinger
Apr 19, 2012, 9:44:45 AM4/19/12
to
In article
<Jason-18041...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
That doesn't change what I said, does it? Fact is, the Allies had been
bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing cities
whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Western
civilians in territories they captured. The point is that modern warfare
is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. The other
point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hundreds of
thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
Do I agree with the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons? I really don't
know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise would most
likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the Japanese
authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful.
<Jason-18041...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing cities
whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Western
civilians in territories they captured. The point is that modern warfare
is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. The other
point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hundreds of
thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
Do I agree with the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons? I really don't
know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise would most
likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the Japanese
authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful.
harry k
Apr 19, 2012, 11:22:47 AM4/19/12
to
vengance.
Harry K
Devils Advocaat
Apr 19, 2012, 12:15:46 PM4/19/12
to
>
> Harry K
Jason
Apr 19, 2012, 3:44:05 PM4/19/12
to
In article
<aa9042e8-d886-4f5e...@j3g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 1:02=A0pm, linuxgal <linux...@cleanposts.com> wrote:
> > Wombat wrote:
> >
> > > IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> > > real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. =A0Was Tokyo a war
<aa9042e8-d886-4f5e...@j3g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 1:02=A0pm, linuxgal <linux...@cleanposts.com> wrote:
> > Wombat wrote:
> >
> > > IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> > > target?
> >
> > Civilian areas have been war targets since Sherman's march from Atlanta
> > to Savannah.
>
> Long before that.
You are both correct.
> >
> > Civilian areas have been war targets since Sherman's march from Atlanta
> > to Savannah.
>
> Long before that.
Jason
Apr 19, 2012, 3:46:12 PM4/19/12
to
In article <dfritzin-D61A74...@news.eternal-september.org>,
I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after the
first nuke was dropped.
several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after the
first nuke was dropped.
Wombat
Apr 19, 2012, 3:53:47 PM4/19/12
to
> <aa9042e8-d886-4f5e-afc8-bc62bff7d...@j3g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
Of course we are. Remember not everyone is as pig ignorant as you.
Wombat
Apr 19, 2012, 4:00:14 PM4/19/12
to
On Apr 19, 9:46 pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
left. American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
less and less oil making it to Japan. Without oil what was left of
the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
the war. Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. The Americans were
planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. Several more years?
Learn some history.
> In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
>
> > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article
>
> <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
>
> > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article
>
> > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
left. American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
less and less oil making it to Japan. Without oil what was left of
the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
the war. Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. The Americans were
planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. Several more years?
Learn some history.
Jason
Apr 19, 2012, 5:10:53 PM4/19/12
to
In article
<1b1a3398-45a2-49f4...@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 18, 10:01=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> > > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.c=
> om>,
> > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september=
> ord,
> > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them any b=
> etter
> > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people mentione=
> d
> > above
> > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In other =
> were
> > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only con=
> doned
> > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that god, =
should have been fire bombed.
<1b1a3398-45a2-49f4...@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 18, 10:01=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> > > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.c=
> om>,
> > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org>,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread the true w=
> >
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > [snip]
> ord,
> > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them any b=
> etter
> > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people mentione=
> d
> > above
> > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In other =
> words,
> > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people they
> > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain that.
> >
> > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the USA--th=
> > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people they
> > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain that.
> >
> > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> ey did
> > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in the Bible=
> > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> were
> > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only con=
> doned
> > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that god, =
> you
> > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on two cit=
> > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> ies
> > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, which
> > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japanese.
> > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent the
> > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
>
> IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. Was Tokyo a war
> target?
I don't so--there may have been some war related facilities in Tokyo. They
> > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, which
> > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japanese.
> > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent the
> > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
>
> IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. Was Tokyo a war
> target?
should have been fire bombed.
Jason
Apr 19, 2012, 5:11:25 PM4/19/12
to
In article <0sadnXQPYdL7bBLS...@giganews.com>, linuxgal
That is correct. It was common in those days to target cities.
Jason
Apr 19, 2012, 5:21:23 PM4/19/12
to
In article
<8c8a86ed-32b4-49df...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 9:46=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september=
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.or=
> ny
> > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people ment=
> ioned
> > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In ot=
> her
> > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people th=
> cities
> > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct w=
> ars.
> >
> > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, whic=
> h
> > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japan=
> ese.
> > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent =
<8c8a86ed-32b4-49df...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 9:46=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> >,
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org>,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> >
> > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com=
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> >
> > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > =A0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.or=
> g>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread the
> > true word,
> > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them a=
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread the
> > true word,
> > > > > > and to
> ny
> > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people ment=
> ioned
> > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In ot=
> her
> > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people th=
> ey
> > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain that=
> > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> >
> .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the USA=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> --they
> > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in the B=
> > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> ible
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only
> > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that
> > god, you
> > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on two=
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only
> > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that
> > god, you
> > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> cities
> > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct w=
> ars.
> >
> > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, whic=
> h
> > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japan=
> ese.
> > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent =
> the
> > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > That doesn't change what I said, does it? Fact is, the Allies had been
> > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing cities
> > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Western
> > > civilians in territories they captured. The point is that modern warfar=
> > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > That doesn't change what I said, does it? Fact is, the Allies had been
> > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing cities
> > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Western
> e
> > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. The other
> > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hundreds of
> > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> > > Do I agree with the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons? I really don'=
> > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. The other
> > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hundreds of
> > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> t
> > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise would most
> > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the Japanese
> > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful.
> >
> > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
> > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
> > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after the
> > first nuke was dropped.
>
> By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> left. American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
> less and less oil making it to Japan. Without oil what was left of
> the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
> the war. Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. The Americans were
> planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. Several more years?
> Learn some history.
I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a fact.
> > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise would most
> > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the Japanese
> > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful.
> >
> > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
> > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
> > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after the
> > first nuke was dropped.
>
> By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> left. American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
> less and less oil making it to Japan. Without oil what was left of
> the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
> the war. Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. The Americans were
> planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. Several more years?
> Learn some history.
David Fritzinger
Apr 19, 2012, 7:11:11 PM4/19/12
to
have been similar to invading Okinawa, only with many more people
sitting on the ground. While the Japanese might have surrendered,
everything I have read (which is quite a bit) says they were not at all
willing to surrender. The only reason the war did end is that the
Emperor saw the destruction the A-bombs caused and overruled the
military authorities.
linuxgal
Apr 19, 2012, 10:23:05 PM4/19/12
to
harry k
Apr 19, 2012, 11:58:31 PM4/19/12
to
> <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
It is a fact that you are talking out your ass again.
Harry K.
Harry K.
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 1:21:05 AM4/20/12
to
> <1b1a3398-45a2-49f4-8f56-aa5adab12...@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
Given that even the B-29 with its vaunted bombsight couldn't bomb
accurately at night (or at low level) how were they to do that?
accurately at night (or at low level) how were they to do that?
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 1:30:02 AM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 1:11 am, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
wrote:
> In article
> <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
You are probably correct. However, without much in the way of
supplies, how long could the inhabitants have held back the invaders
with napalm, HE and firebombs raining down on them? Pitchforks and
banzai charges only go so far. When more A-bombs became available
(December, I think) would they have been used?
wrote:
> In article
> <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
supplies, how long could the inhabitants have held back the invaders
with napalm, HE and firebombs raining down on them? Pitchforks and
banzai charges only go so far. When more A-bombs became available
(December, I think) would they have been used?
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 1:34:43 AM4/20/12
to
> <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
No oil, with the Americans landed in force? I think not, Moriarty.
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 1:34:27 AM4/20/12
to
Jason
Apr 20, 2012, 3:11:26 AM4/20/12
to
In article
<bad1a10d-d062-4c24...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 11:21=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > On Apr 19, 9:46=3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.or=
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest=
> .com=3D
> > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> r.or=3D
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread th=
> em a=3D
> > > ny
> > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people =
> ment=3D
> > > ioned
> > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. I=
> n ot=3D
> > > her
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any peopl=
> e th=3D
> > > ey
> > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandme=
> nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain =
> that=3D
> USA=3D
> he B=3D
> > > ible
> > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not =
> only
> > > > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in th=
> two=3D
> > > =A0cities
> > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically corre=
> ct w=3D
> > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, =
> whic=3D
> > > h
> > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and J=
> apan=3D
> > > ese.
> > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prev=
> ent =3D
> een
> > > > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing cit=
> rfar=3D
> > > e
> > > > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. The ot=
> her
> > > > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hundred=
> don'=3D
> > > t
> > > > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise would mo=
> st
> > > > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the Japa=
> > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =A0Without oil what was left of
> > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =A0The Americans were
> > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =A0Several more years?
> > > Learn some history.
> >
> > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a fact=
first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
another city in Japan before they would surrender.
That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
large city was nuked.
<bad1a10d-d062-4c24...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 11:21=A0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> >,
> >
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> > > >,
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-september.or=
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest=
> .com=3D
> > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> r.or=3D
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread th=
> e
> > > > true word,
> > > > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes th=
> > > > true word,
> > > > > > > > and to
> em a=3D
> > > ny
> > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people =
> ment=3D
> > > ioned
> > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. I=
> n ot=3D
> > > her
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any peopl=
> e th=3D
> > > ey
> > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandme=
> nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain =
> that=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> USA=3D
> > > --they
> > > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in t=
> > > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> he B=3D
> > > ible
> > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not =
> only
> > > > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in th=
> at
> > > > god, you
> > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on=
> > > > god, you
> > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> two=3D
> > > =A0cities
> > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically corre=
> ct w=3D
> > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, =
> whic=3D
> > > h
> > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and J=
> apan=3D
> > > ese.
> > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prev=
> ent =3D
> > > the
> > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > > > That doesn't change what I said, does it? Fact is, the Allies had b=
> > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> een
> > > > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing cit=
> ies
> > > > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Western
> > > > > civilians in territories they captured. The point is that modern wa=
> > > > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Western
> rfar=3D
> > > e
> > > > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. The ot=
> her
> > > > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hundred=
> s of
> > > > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> > > > > Do I agree with the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons? I really =
> > > > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> don'=3D
> > > t
> > > > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise would mo=
> st
> > > > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the Japa=
> nese
> > > > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful.
> >
> > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
> > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
> > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after=
> > > > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful.
> >
> > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
> > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
> the
> > > > first nuke was dropped.
> >
> > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > left. =A0American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
> > > > first nuke was dropped.
> >
> > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =A0Without oil what was left of
> > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
> > > the war. =A0Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =A0The Americans were
> > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =A0Several more years?
> > > Learn some history.
> >
> > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a fact=
> .
>
> No oil, with the Americans landed in force? I think not, Moriarty.
The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
>
> No oil, with the Americans landed in force? I think not, Moriarty.
first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
another city in Japan before they would surrender.
That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
large city was nuked.
Jason
Apr 20, 2012, 3:14:46 AM4/20/12
to
In article
<194041d1-696d-4172...@i18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,
Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > <1b1a3398-45a2-49f4-8f56-aa5adab12...@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Womba=
> t
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > On Apr 18, 10:01=3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> > > > > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwe=
> st.c=3D
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.or=
> ue w=3D
> > > ord,
> > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them a=
> ny b=3D
> > > etter
> > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people ment=
> ione=3D
> > > d
> > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In ot=
> her =3D
> > > words,
> > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people th=
> --th=3D
> ible=3D
> > > =A0were
> > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only=
> con=3D
> > > doned
> > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that g=
> od, =3D
> cit=3D
> > > ies
> > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct w=
> ars.
> >
> > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, whic=
> h
> > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japan=
> ese.
> > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent =
> > > target?
> >
> > I don't so--there may have been some war related facilities in Tokyo. The=
<194041d1-696d-4172...@i18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,
Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > <1b1a3398-45a2-49f4-8f56-aa5adab12...@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Womba=
> t
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > On Apr 18, 10:01=3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september.org=
> >,
> >
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > =3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> > > > > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwe=
> st.c=3D
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org>,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com=
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.or=
> g>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread the tr=
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > [snip]
> ue w=3D
> > > ord,
> > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes them a=
> ny b=3D
> > > etter
> > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people ment=
> ione=3D
> > > d
> > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. In ot=
> her =3D
> > > words,
> > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any people th=
> ey
> > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain that=
> > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandment.
> >
> .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the USA=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> --th=3D
> > > ey did
> > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in the B=
> > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> ible=3D
> > > =A0were
> > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not only=
> con=3D
> > > doned
> > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in that g=
> od, =3D
> > > you
> > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on two=
> > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> cit=3D
> > > ies
> > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically correct w=
> ars.
> >
> > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, whic=
> h
> > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and Japan=
> ese.
> > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prevent =
> the
> > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> > > real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. =A0Was Tokyo a war
> > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up more
> > > target?
> >
> > I don't so--there may have been some war related facilities in Tokyo. The=
> y
> > should have been fire bombed.
>
> Given that even the B-29 with its vaunted bombsight couldn't bomb
> accurately at night (or at low level) how were they to do that?
The planes that carried the nukes were not shot out of the sky.
> > should have been fire bombed.
>
> Given that even the B-29 with its vaunted bombsight couldn't bomb
> accurately at night (or at low level) how were they to do that?
Jason
Apr 20, 2012, 3:15:45 AM4/20/12
to
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 5:51:08 AM4/20/12
to
> <194041d1-696d-4172-b66e-a10013a27...@i18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,
What does that have to do with the 21 Bomber Command aircraft bombing
from low level at night?
The atom bombs were dropped from over 30,000 ft, well above most
defences.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
"About an hour before the bombing, Japanese early warning radar
detected the approach of some American aircraft headed for the
southern part of Japan. An alert was given and radio broadcasting
stopped in many cities, among them Hiroshima. At nearly 08:00, the
radar operator in Hiroshima determined that the number of planes
coming in was very small—probably not more than three—and the air raid
alert was lifted. To conserve fuel and aircraft, the Japanese had
decided not to intercept small formations. The normal radio broadcast
warning was given to the people that it might be advisable to go to
air-raid shelters if B-29s were actually sighted. However a
reconnaissance mission was assumed because at 07:31 the first B29 to
fly over Hiroshima at 32,000 feet (9,800 m) had been the weather
observation aircraft Straight Flush that sent a morse code message to
the Enola Gay indicating that the weather was good over the primary
target."
This information is easily available yet you keep making assertions
which are wrong. Why is that?
from low level at night?
The atom bombs were dropped from over 30,000 ft, well above most
defences.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
"About an hour before the bombing, Japanese early warning radar
detected the approach of some American aircraft headed for the
southern part of Japan. An alert was given and radio broadcasting
stopped in many cities, among them Hiroshima. At nearly 08:00, the
radar operator in Hiroshima determined that the number of planes
coming in was very small—probably not more than three—and the air raid
alert was lifted. To conserve fuel and aircraft, the Japanese had
decided not to intercept small formations. The normal radio broadcast
warning was given to the people that it might be advisable to go to
air-raid shelters if B-29s were actually sighted. However a
reconnaissance mission was assumed because at 07:31 the first B29 to
fly over Hiroshima at 32,000 feet (9,800 m) had been the weather
observation aircraft Straight Flush that sent a morse code message to
the Enola Gay indicating that the weather was good over the primary
target."
This information is easily available yet you keep making assertions
which are wrong. Why is that?
David Fritzinger
Apr 20, 2012, 9:21:47 AM4/20/12
to
In article
<bad1a10d-d062-4c24...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-september.o
Sorry, but I still have to disagree with you. You can do an awful lot
with suicide attacks, etc.
<bad1a10d-d062-4c24...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
with suicide attacks, etc.
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 9:33:59 AM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 3:21 pm, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
wrote:
> In article
> <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Again, you are almost certainly right. Perhaps I should shut up now.
However, when more A-bombs became available would they have been used?
I understood more would have been available from December 1945
onwards. Under this alternate time line, how many more would have
convinced the Japanese to call it a day?
wrote:
> In article
> <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
However, when more A-bombs became available would they have been used?
I understood more would have been available from December 1945
onwards. Under this alternate time line, how many more would have
convinced the Japanese to call it a day?
David Fritzinger
Apr 20, 2012, 9:41:51 AM4/20/12
to
In article
<64030aca-9e2b-4ec3...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwes
I suspect, but don't know, of course, that we wouldn't have used A-bombs
once we had soldiers on Japanese soil.
Of course, I am also the first to admit that the motive for dropping the
A-bombs on Japan had other motives as well, such as trying to keep the
SU out of the Asian war (it didn't work, and the Soviets seized much of
Mongolia) and to make a statement to them of our power. That didn't work
either, since the Soviets developed an A-bomb within 4 or 5 years.
<64030aca-9e2b-4ec3...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
once we had soldiers on Japanese soil.
Of course, I am also the first to admit that the motive for dropping the
A-bombs on Japan had other motives as well, such as trying to keep the
SU out of the Asian war (it didn't work, and the Soviets seized much of
Mongolia) and to make a statement to them of our power. That didn't work
either, since the Soviets developed an A-bomb within 4 or 5 years.
harry k
Apr 20, 2012, 11:14:20 AM4/20/12
to
> <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Who do you meand by "they"? The military powers didn't want to admit
they were beaten but I'll bet they were the only ones.
Harry K
they were beaten but I'll bet they were the only ones.
Harry K
harry k
Apr 20, 2012, 11:16:39 AM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 6:41 am, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
wrote:
> In article
> <64030aca-9e2b-4ec3-a6b4-b2f7ab3a8...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Yep, and the Russians still possess the southern half of Sakhalin
which was Japanese before the war.
Harry K
wrote:
> In article
> <64030aca-9e2b-4ec3-a6b4-b2f7ab3a8...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
which was Japanese before the war.
Harry K
harry k
Apr 20, 2012, 11:17:18 AM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 12:15 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> In article <dfritzin-8C0131.19111119042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
You might try it once in a while.
Harry K
> In article <dfritzin-8C0131.19111119042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Harry K
David Fritzinger
Apr 20, 2012, 11:33:28 AM4/20/12
to
In article
<23e140bc-da6d-4ca6...@h10g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
government throughout the war. It was only the plea by the emperor (who
was considered god-like) and, I believe, the promise by the Allies that
the emperor could remain, that brought about the surrender, even after
two A-bombs were dropped on Japanese cities (not to mention the
wholesale destruction of other Japanese cities by firebombing. IIRC,
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were two of the few
Japanese cities that hadn't been hit hard by conventional bombing).
<23e140bc-da6d-4ca6...@h10g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
harry k <turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 12:11 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
[snip]
> On Apr 20, 12:11 am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > > > left. =A0American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there
> > > > > was
> > > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =A0Without oil what was left of
> > > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days
> > > > > of
> > > > > the war. =A0Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> > > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =A0The Americans were
> > > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =A0Several more years?
> > > > > Learn some history.
> >
> > > > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a
> > > > fact=
> > > .
> >
> > > No oil, with the Americans landed in force? I think not, Moriarty.
> >
> > The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
> > first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
> > surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
> > another city in Japan before they would surrender.
> >
> > That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
> > large city was nuked.
>
> Who do you meand by "they"? The military powers didn't want to admit
> they were beaten but I'll bet they were the only ones.
>
> Harry K
Problem was that the Military had a really strong hold on the Japanese
> > > > > left. =A0American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there
> > > > > was
> > > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =A0Without oil what was left of
> > > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days
> > > > > of
> > > > > the war. =A0Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> > > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =A0The Americans were
> > > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =A0Several more years?
> > > > > Learn some history.
> >
> > > > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a
> > > > fact=
> > > .
> >
> > > No oil, with the Americans landed in force? I think not, Moriarty.
> >
> > The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
> > first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
> > surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
> > another city in Japan before they would surrender.
> >
> > That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
> > large city was nuked.
>
> Who do you meand by "they"? The military powers didn't want to admit
> they were beaten but I'll bet they were the only ones.
>
> Harry K
government throughout the war. It was only the plea by the emperor (who
was considered god-like) and, I believe, the promise by the Allies that
the emperor could remain, that brought about the surrender, even after
two A-bombs were dropped on Japanese cities (not to mention the
wholesale destruction of other Japanese cities by firebombing. IIRC,
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were two of the few
Japanese cities that hadn't been hit hard by conventional bombing).
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 12:15:33 PM4/20/12
to
Wombat
Apr 20, 2012, 12:18:58 PM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 5:17 pm, harry k <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
(with thanks to Casablanca)
snip
>
> > > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
> > > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
> > > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after the
> > > > > first nuke was dropped.
>
> > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > > left. American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
> > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. Without oil what was left of
> > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
> > > > the war. Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. The Americans were
> > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. Several more years?
> > > > Learn some history.
>
> > > I've got to disagree with you here. Invading Japan would most likely
> > > have been similar to invading Okinawa, only with many more people
> > > sitting on the ground. While the Japanese might have surrendered,
> > > everything I have read (which is quite a bit) says they were not at all
> > > willing to surrender. The only reason the war did end is that the
> > > Emperor saw the destruction the A-bombs caused and overruled the
> > > military authorities.
>
> > Thanks for being honest.
>
> You might try it once in a while.
>
> Harry K
Jason isn't honest? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked!
> > > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at least
> > > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear that
> > > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender after the
> > > > > first nuke was dropped.
>
> > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > > left. American submarines selectively targeted tankers so there was
> > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. Without oil what was left of
> > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days of
> > > > the war. Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel for
> > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. The Americans were
> > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. Several more years?
> > > > Learn some history.
>
> > > I've got to disagree with you here. Invading Japan would most likely
> > > have been similar to invading Okinawa, only with many more people
> > > sitting on the ground. While the Japanese might have surrendered,
> > > everything I have read (which is quite a bit) says they were not at all
> > > willing to surrender. The only reason the war did end is that the
> > > Emperor saw the destruction the A-bombs caused and overruled the
> > > military authorities.
>
> > Thanks for being honest.
>
> You might try it once in a while.
>
> Harry K
(with thanks to Casablanca)
Devils Advocaat
Apr 20, 2012, 1:28:47 PM4/20/12
to
> <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Tell me something Jason, do you think it was an American only decision
to drop the atomic (not nuclear) bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
to drop the atomic (not nuclear) bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
harry k
Apr 20, 2012, 11:48:51 PM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 8:33 am, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
wrote:
> In article
> <23e140bc-da6d-4ca6-bddf-382534dec...@h10g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
The cities on the target list had been declared off limits for bombing
for a long time primary - saving them for the A-bomb. I believe it
was Nagasaki that was a secondary, primary was obscured by clouds and
one of themission directives was tht the A-bomb had to be dropped
under visual conditions.
Harry K
wrote:
> In article
> <23e140bc-da6d-4ca6-bddf-382534dec...@h10g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
for a long time primary - saving them for the A-bomb. I believe it
was Nagasaki that was a secondary, primary was obscured by clouds and
one of themission directives was tht the A-bomb had to be dropped
under visual conditions.
Harry K
harry k
Apr 20, 2012, 11:52:52 PM4/20/12
to
On Apr 20, 9:15 am, Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 5:16 pm, harry k <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 20, 6:41 am, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
<snip>
> On Apr 20, 5:16 pm, harry k <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 20, 6:41 am, David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > I suspect, but don't know, of course, that we wouldn't have used A-bombs
> > > once we had soldiers on Japanese soil.
>
> > > Of course, I am also the first to admit that the motive for dropping the
> > > A-bombs on Japan had other motives as well, such as trying to keep the
> > > SU out of the Asian war (it didn't work, and the Soviets seized much of
> > > Mongolia) and to make a statement to them of our power. That didn't work
> > > either, since the Soviets developed an A-bomb within 4 or 5 years.
>
> > Yep, and the Russians still possess the southern half of Sakhalin
> > which was Japanese before the war.
>
> > Harry K
>
> Don't forget the Kurile Islands.
Russian Air Defense (radar and fighter activity) in that area.
Harry K
harry k
Apr 20, 2012, 11:55:10 PM4/20/12
to
Harry K
Jason
Apr 21, 2012, 2:56:36 AM4/21/12
to
In article
<dc1bc03c-efee-462d...@f5g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 9:14=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <194041d1-696d-4172-b66e-a10013a27...@i18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > <1b1a3398-45a2-49f4-8f56-aa5adab12...@p6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, W=
> omba=3D
> > > t
> >
> > > > <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > On Apr 18, 10:01=3D3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september=
> > > > > > > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-p=
> acwe=3D
> > > st.c=3D3D
> > > > > om>,
> > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-s=
> epte=3D
> > > mber=3D3D
> .com=3D
> > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread th=
> e tr=3D
> > > ue w=3D3D
> > > > > ord,
> > > > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes th=
> em a=3D
> > > ny b=3D3D
> > > > > etter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people =
> ment=3D
> > > ione=3D3D
> > > > > d
> > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. I=
> n ot=3D
> > > her =3D3D
> > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any peopl=
> e th=3D
> > > ey
> > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandme=
> nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain =
> that=3D
> USA=3D
> > > --th=3D3D
> he B=3D
> > > ible=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0were
> > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not =
> only=3D
> > > =A0con=3D3D
> > > > > doned
> > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in th=
> at g=3D
> > > od, =3D3D
> two=3D
> > > =A0cit=3D3D
> > > > > ies
> > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically corre=
> ct w=3D
> > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, =
> whic=3D
> > > h
> > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and J=
> apan=3D
> > > ese.
> > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prev=
> ent =3D
> re
> > > > > real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. =3DA0Was Tokyo a w=
> ar
> > > > > target?
> >
> > > > I don't so--there may have been some war related facilities in Tokyo.=
> The=3D
<dc1bc03c-efee-462d...@f5g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>, Wombat
<tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 9:14=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <194041d1-696d-4172-b66e-a10013a27...@i18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> omba=3D
> > > t
> >
> > > > <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > On Apr 18, 10:01=3D3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> > > >,
> >
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > >,
> >
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org=3D3D
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > > > > > > > In article <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-p=
> acwe=3D
> > > st.c=3D3D
> > > > > om>,
> > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-s=
> epte=3D
> > > mber=3D3D
> > > > > .org>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pacwest=
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> .com=3D
> > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> r.or=3D
> > > g>,
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> r.or=3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to spread th=
> e tr=3D
> > > ue w=3D3D
> > > > > ord,
> > > > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What makes th=
> em a=3D
> > > ny b=3D3D
> > > > > etter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the people =
> ment=3D
> > > ione=3D3D
> > > > > d
> > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to do. I=
> n ot=3D
> > > her =3D3D
> > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any peopl=
> e th=3D
> > > ey
> > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a commandme=
> nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Explain =
> that=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike the=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> USA=3D
> > > --th=3D3D
> > > > > ey did
> > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed in t=
> > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> he B=3D
> > > ible=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0were
> > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God not =
> only=3D
> > > =A0con=3D3D
> > > > > doned
> > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe in th=
> at g=3D
> > > od, =3D3D
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nukes on=
> > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> two=3D
> > > =A0cit=3D3D
> > > > > ies
> > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically corre=
> ct w=3D
> > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Japan, =
> whic=3D
> > > h
> > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American and J=
> apan=3D
> > > ese.
> > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to prev=
> ent =3D
> > > the
> > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > > > IIRC, the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people and burned up mo=
> > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> re
> > > > > real estate that the two nuclear bombs combined. =3DA0Was Tokyo a w=
> ar
> > > > > target?
> >
> > > > I don't so--there may have been some war related facilities in Tokyo.=
> The=3D
> > > y
> > > > should have been fire bombed.
> >
> > > Given that even the B-29 with its vaunted bombsight couldn't bomb
> > > accurately at night (or at low level) how were they to do that?
> >
> > The planes that carried the nukes were not shot out of the sky.
>
> What does that have to do with the 21 Bomber Command aircraft bombing
> from low level at night?
> The atom bombs were dropped from over 30,000 ft, well above most
> defences.
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
>
> "About an hour before the bombing, Japanese early warning radar
> detected the approach of some American aircraft headed for the
> southern part of Japan. An alert was given and radio broadcasting
> stopped in many cities, among them Hiroshima. At nearly 08:00, the
> radar operator in Hiroshima determined that the number of planes
> coming in was very small=97probably not more than three=97and the air raid
> > > > should have been fire bombed.
> >
> > > Given that even the B-29 with its vaunted bombsight couldn't bomb
> > > accurately at night (or at low level) how were they to do that?
> >
> > The planes that carried the nukes were not shot out of the sky.
>
> What does that have to do with the 21 Bomber Command aircraft bombing
> from low level at night?
> The atom bombs were dropped from over 30,000 ft, well above most
> defences.
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
>
> "About an hour before the bombing, Japanese early warning radar
> detected the approach of some American aircraft headed for the
> southern part of Japan. An alert was given and radio broadcasting
> stopped in many cities, among them Hiroshima. At nearly 08:00, the
> radar operator in Hiroshima determined that the number of planes
> alert was lifted. To conserve fuel and aircraft, the Japanese had
> decided not to intercept small formations. The normal radio broadcast
> warning was given to the people that it might be advisable to go to
> air-raid shelters if B-29s were actually sighted. However a
> reconnaissance mission was assumed because at 07:31 the first B29 to
> fly over Hiroshima at 32,000 feet (9,800 m) had been the weather
> observation aircraft Straight Flush that sent a morse code message to
> the Enola Gay indicating that the weather was good over the primary
> target."
>
> This information is easily available yet you keep making assertions
> which are wrong. Why is that?
thanks
> decided not to intercept small formations. The normal radio broadcast
> warning was given to the people that it might be advisable to go to
> air-raid shelters if B-29s were actually sighted. However a
> reconnaissance mission was assumed because at 07:31 the first B29 to
> fly over Hiroshima at 32,000 feet (9,800 m) had been the weather
> observation aircraft Straight Flush that sent a morse code message to
> the Enola Gay indicating that the weather was good over the primary
> target."
>
> This information is easily available yet you keep making assertions
> which are wrong. Why is that?
Jason
Apr 21, 2012, 2:57:39 AM4/21/12
to
In article <dfritzin-9B4FA0...@news.eternal-september.org>,
OK--why did Japan not surrender after the first nuke was dropped?
Jason
Apr 21, 2012, 3:01:19 AM4/21/12
to
k <turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 12:11=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september=
> > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org=3D3D
> >,
> > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-s=
> epte=3D
> > > mber=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pac=
> west=3D
> > > .com=3D3D
> embe=3D
> > > r.or=3D3D
> > > > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com=
> > wr=3D
> > > ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to sprea=
> d th=3D
> s th=3D
> > > em a=3D3D
> > > > > ny
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the peo=
> ple =3D
> > > ment=3D3D
> > > > > ioned
> > > > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to d=
> o. I=3D
> > > n ot=3D3D
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any p=
> eopl=3D
> > > e th=3D3D
> > > > > ey
> > > > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a comma=
> ndme=3D
> > > nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Expl=
> ain =3D
> > > that=3D3D
> the=3D
> > > =A0USA=3D3D
> in t=3D
> > > he B=3D3D
> > > > > ible
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God =
> not =3D
> > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe i=
> n th=3D
> s on=3D
> > > =A0two=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0cities
> > > > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically c=
> orre=3D
> > > ct w=3D3D
> > > > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Jap=
> an, =3D
> > > whic=3D3D
> > > > > h
> > > > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American a=
> nd J=3D
> > > apan=3D3D
> > > > > ese.
> > > > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to =
> prev=3D
> > > ent =3D3D
> ad b=3D
> > > een
> > > > > > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing=
> cit=3D
> > > ies
> > > > > > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Weste=
> rn
> > > > > > > civilians in territories they captured. The point is that moder=
> n wa=3D
> > > rfar=3D3D
> > > > > e
> > > > > > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. Th=
> e ot=3D
> > > her
> > > > > > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hun=
> dred=3D
> lly =3D
> > > don'=3D3D
> > > > > t
> > > > > > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise woul=
> d mo=3D
> > > st
> > > > > > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the =
> Japa=3D
> > > nese
> > > > > > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful=
> .
> >
> > > > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at l=
> east
> > > > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear =
> that
> > > > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender a=
> fter=3D
> > > =A0the
> e was
> > > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =3DA0Without oil what was lef=
> t of
> > > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days=
> of
> > > > > the war. =3DA0Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel=
> for
> > > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =3DA0The Americans were
> > > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =3DA0Several more ye=
> ars?
> > > > > Learn some history.
> >
> > > > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a =
> fact=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > No oil, with the Americans landed in force? =A0I think not, Moriarty.
> On Apr 20, 12:11=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > On Apr 19, 11:21=3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > On Apr 19, 9:46=3D3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> > > >,
> >
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > >,
> >
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org=3D3D
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com=
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> >,
> > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-s=
> epte=3D
> > > mber=3D3D
> > > > > .org>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > > > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > > > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> r.or=3D
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pac=
> west=3D
> > > .com=3D3D
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-sept=
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> embe=3D
> > > r.or=3D3D
> > > > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com=
> > wr=3D
> > > ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to sprea=
> d th=3D
> > > e
> > > > > > true word,
> > > > > > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What make=
> > > > > > true word,
> > > > > > > > > > and to
> s th=3D
> > > em a=3D3D
> > > > > ny
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the peo=
> ple =3D
> > > ment=3D3D
> > > > > ioned
> > > > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to d=
> o. I=3D
> > > n ot=3D3D
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any p=
> eopl=3D
> > > e th=3D3D
> > > > > ey
> > > > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a comma=
> ndme=3D
> > > nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Expl=
> ain =3D
> > > that=3D3D
> > > > > .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> the=3D
> > > =A0USA=3D3D
> > > > > --they
> > > > > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed =
> > > > > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> in t=3D
> > > he B=3D3D
> > > > > ible
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God =
> not =3D
> > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe i=
> n th=3D
> > > at
> > > > > > god, you
> > > > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nuke=
> > > > > > god, you
> > > > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> s on=3D
> > > =A0two=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0cities
> > > > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically c=
> orre=3D
> > > ct w=3D3D
> > > > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Jap=
> an, =3D
> > > whic=3D3D
> > > > > h
> > > > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American a=
> nd J=3D
> > > apan=3D3D
> > > > > ese.
> > > > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to =
> prev=3D
> > > ent =3D3D
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > > > > > That doesn't change what I said, does it? Fact is, the Allies h=
> > > > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> ad b=3D
> > > een
> > > > > > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing=
> cit=3D
> > > ies
> > > > > > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Weste=
> rn
> > > > > > > civilians in territories they captured. The point is that moder=
> n wa=3D
> > > rfar=3D3D
> > > > > e
> > > > > > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. Th=
> e ot=3D
> > > her
> > > > > > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hun=
> dred=3D
> > > s of
> > > > > > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> > > > > > > Do I agree with the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons? I rea=
> > > > > > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> lly =3D
> > > don'=3D3D
> > > > > t
> > > > > > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise woul=
> d mo=3D
> > > st
> > > > > > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the =
> Japa=3D
> > > nese
> > > > > > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful=
> .
> >
> > > > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at l=
> east
> > > > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear =
> that
> > > > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender a=
> fter=3D
> > > =A0the
> > > > > > first nuke was dropped.
> >
> > > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > > > left. =3DA0American submarines selectively targeted tankers so ther=
> >
> > > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> e was
> > > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =3DA0Without oil what was lef=
> t of
> > > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days=
> of
> > > > > the war. =3DA0Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel=
> for
> > > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =3DA0The Americans were
> > > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =3DA0Several more ye=
> ars?
> > > > > Learn some history.
> >
> > > > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a =
> fact=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > No oil, with the Americans landed in force? =A0I think not, Moriarty.
> >
> > The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
> > first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
> > surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
> > another city in Japan before they would surrender.
> >
> > That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
> > large city was nuked.
>
> Who do you meand by "they"? The military powers didn't want to admit
> they were beaten but I'll bet they were the only ones.
>
> Harry K
Perhaps--but they made the decisions to go forward with the war.
> > The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
> > first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
> > surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
> > another city in Japan before they would surrender.
> >
> > That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
> > large city was nuked.
>
> Who do you meand by "they"? The military powers didn't want to admit
> they were beaten but I'll bet they were the only ones.
>
> Harry K
Jason
Apr 21, 2012, 3:02:33 AM4/21/12
to
In article
<de82c08f-f1f4-4cd9...@dc2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 8:11=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to sprea=
> d th=3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the peo=
> ple =3D
> > > ment=3D3D
> > > > > ioned
> > > > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any p=
> eopl=3D
> > > e th=3D3D
> > > > > ey
> > > > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a comma=
> ndme=3D
> > > nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Expl=
> ain =3D
> > > that=3D3D
> the=3D
> > > =A0USA=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God =
> not =3D
> > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe i=
> n th=3D
> orre=3D
> > > ct w=3D3D
> > > > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Jap=
> an, =3D
> > > whic=3D3D
> > > > > h
> > > > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American a=
> nd J=3D
> > > apan=3D3D
> > > > > ese.
> > > > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to =
> prev=3D
> > > ent =3D3D
> ad b=3D
> > > een
> > > > > > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing=
> cit=3D
> > > ies
> > > > > > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Weste=
> rn
> > > > > > > civilians in territories they captured. The point is that moder=
> n wa=3D
> > > rfar=3D3D
> > > > > e
> > > > > > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. Th=
> e ot=3D
> > > her
> > > > > > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hun=
> dred=3D
> > > > > > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise woul=
> d mo=3D
> > > st
> > > > > > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the =
> Japa=3D
> > > nese
> > > > > > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful=
> .
> >
> > > > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at l=
> east
> > > > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear =
> that
> > > > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender a=
> fter=3D
> > > =A0the
> e was
> for
> > > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =3DA0The Americans were
> > > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =3DA0Several more ye=
> ars?
> > > > > Learn some history.
> >
> > > > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a =
> fact=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > No oil, with the Americans landed in force? =A0I think not, Moriarty.
<de82c08f-f1f4-4cd9...@dc2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 8:11=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <bad1a10d-d062-4c24-9391-0f83afe89...@m31g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > On Apr 19, 11:21=3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > On Apr 19, 9:46=3D3DA0pm, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <8c8a86ed-32b4-49df-980a-a523e4cf0...@ca2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > Wombat <tri...@multiweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D61A74.09444519042...@news.eternal-september=
> .org=3D
> > > >,
> >
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > >,
> >
> > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <Jason-1804121301160...@67-150-123-126.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org=3D3D
> > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-49446F.10225818042...@news.eternal-septe=
> mber=3D
> > > .org=3D3D
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > <Jason-1704122332200...@67-150-122-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com=
> >,
> > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-s=
> epte=3D
> > > mber=3D3D
> >,
> > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > In article <dfritzin-D229E8.19201417042...@news.eternal-s=
> epte=3D
> > > mber=3D3D
> > > > > .org>,
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > > > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > In article
> >
> > > > > > <Jason-1704121533030...@66-53-218-41.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-3A17B9.09173317042...@news.eternal-septembe=
> r.or=3D
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com> wr=
> ote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pac=
> west=3D
> > > .com=3D3D
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-sept=
> embe=3D
> > > r.or=3D3D
> > > > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com=
> > wr=3D
> > > ote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <Jason-1604121828080...@66-53-212-147.lsan.mdsg-pac=
> west=3D
> > > .com=3D3D
> > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D3DA0Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <dfritzin-B472C8.14463416042...@news.eternal-sept=
> embe=3D
> > > r.or=3D3D
> > > > > g>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Fritzinger <dfrit...@nospamtome.hotmail.com=
> > wr=3D
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These people believed they were acting to sprea=
> d th=3D
> > > e
> > > > > > true word,
> > > > > > > > > > and to
> > > > > > true word,
> > > > > > > > > > and to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > get people to join the "true church". What make=
> s th=3D
> > > em a=3D3D
> > > > > ny
> s th=3D
> > > em a=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no evidence to indicate that the peo=
> ple =3D
> > > ment=3D3D
> > > > > ioned
> > > > > > > > above
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (eg
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spanish) were doing what God wanted them to d=
> o. I=3D
> > > n ot=3D3D
> > > > > her
> o. I=3D
> > > n ot=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > > > they were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in line with God's will. That means any p=
> eopl=3D
> > > e th=3D3D
> > > > > ey
> > > > > > > > > > murdered was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sin---and as a result in violation of a comma=
> ndme=3D
> > > nt.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, God told the Jews to commit genocide. Expl=
> ain =3D
> > > that=3D3D
> > > > > .
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It was the way wars were fought in those days--unlike=
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were assigned to kill evil people.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Women and children? Surely you jest.
> >
> the=3D
> > > =A0USA=3D3D
> > > > > --they
> > > > > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > > > not fight politically correct wars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > No, Jason. You are wrong as usual. The killings listed =
> in t=3D
> > > he B=3D3D
> > > > > ible
> in t=3D
> > > he B=3D3D
> > > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > nothing less than war crimes. Yet, your version of God =
> not =3D
> > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > condoned
> > > > > > > > > > > them, he told the Jews to commit them. If you believe i=
> n th=3D
> > > at
> > > > > > god, you
> > > > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > god, you
> > > > > > > > > > > are worshipping a monster.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Those wars were very much like the days that we drop nuke=
> s on=3D
> > > =A0two=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0cities
> > > > > > > > > > in Japan. In those days, they did not fight politically c=
> s on=3D
> > > =A0two=3D3D
> > > > > =3DA0cities
> orre=3D
> > > ct w=3D3D
> > > > > ars.
> >
> > > > > > > > > The atomic bombs were dropped to prevent an invasion of Jap=
> an, =3D
> > > whic=3D3D
> > > > > h
> > > > > > > > > would most likely have cost far more lives, both American a=
> nd J=3D
> > > apan=3D3D
> > > > > ese.
> > > > > > > > > Of course, there was also a geopolitical reason, namely to =
> prev=3D
> > > ent =3D3D
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> > > > > > > That doesn't change what I said, does it? Fact is, the Allies h=
> > > > > > > > > Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan.
> >
> > > > > > > > > What exactly is a "politically correct war"?
> >
> > > > > > > > The nukes were dropped on cities--not on war targets.
> >
> ad b=3D
> > > een
> > > > > > > bombing cities during most of the war. The Germans were bombing=
> cit=3D
> > > ies
> > > > > > > whenever they got the chance. The Japanese were brutal to Weste=
> rn
> > > > > > > civilians in territories they captured. The point is that moder=
> n wa=3D
> > > rfar=3D3D
> > > > > e
> > > > > > > is far more brutal to non-combatants than it was previously. Th=
> e ot=3D
> > > her
> > > > > > > point is that the atomic bombing of Japan most likely saved hun=
> dred=3D
> > > s of
> > > > > > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> > > > > > > thousands of lives, both American and Japanese.
> >
> > > > > > > Do I agree with the bombing of Japan with atomic weapons? I rea=
> lly =3D
> > > don'=3D3D
> > > > > t
> lly =3D
> > > don'=3D3D
> > > > > > > know. It certainly ended the war far sooner than otherwise woul=
> d mo=3D
> > > st
> > > > > > > likely have happened. However, there was always the chance the =
> Japa=3D
> > > nese
> > > > > > > authorities would finally admit defeat, though that is doubtful=
> .
> >
> > > > > > I agree with you. However, the war would have clearly lasted at l=
> east
> > > > > > several more years if we had not dropped those nukes. It's clear =
> that
> > > > > > Japan wanted the war to continue. They would not even surrender a=
> fter=3D
> > > =A0the
> > > > > > first nuke was dropped.
> >
> > > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> > > > > left. =3DA0American submarines selectively targeted tankers so ther=
> >
> > > > > By the summer of 1945 the Japanese merchant marine had few ships
> e was
> > > > > less and less oil making it to Japan. =3DA0Without oil what was lef=
> t of
> > > > > the IJN was immobile in port, where many were sunk in the last days=
> of
> > > > > the war. =3DA0Eventually, there would have been no high octane fuel=
> of
> for
> > > > > aircraft to try to stem the heavy bombing. =3DA0The Americans were
> > > > > planning to invade the homeland later in 1945. =3DA0Several more ye=
> ars?
> > > > > Learn some history.
> >
> > > > I have--the war would have clearly lasted several more years. It's a =
> fact=3D
> > > .
> >
> > > No oil, with the Americans landed in force? =A0I think not, Moriarty.
> >
> > The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
> > first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
> > surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
> > another city in Japan before they would surrender.
> >
> > That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
> > large city was nuked.
>
> Tell me something Jason, do you think it was an American only decision
> to drop the atomic (not nuclear) bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
I don't know. It's my guess that we consulted with our allies.
> > The proof that I am correct is what happened after America dropped the
> > first nuclear bomb on a large city in Japan. We give them a chance to
> > surrender but they refused to surrender. We had to drop another bomb on
> > another city in Japan before they would surrender.
> >
> > That's proof that they were not interested in surrendering--even after a
> > large city was nuked.
>
> Tell me something Jason, do you think it was an American only decision
> to drop the atomic (not nuclear) bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Devils Advocaat
Apr 21, 2012, 5:06:44 AM4/21/12
to
> <de82c08f-f1f4-4cd9-a931-7bbba77b1...@dc2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Well for once your guess is almost right.
David Fritzinger
Apr 21, 2012, 6:34:55 AM4/21/12
to
In article
<Jason-20041...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
Why are you arguing with me? I am agreeing with you that we needed the
two A-bombs to be dropped before Japan would surrender.
<Jason-20041...@67-150-121-168.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
two A-bombs to be dropped before Japan would surrender.
David Fritzinger
Apr 21, 2012, 6:47:31 AM4/21/12
to
In article
<9b56aa1c-1d65-4641...@t2g2000pbg.googlegroups.com>,
Yeah, I seem to remember you are correct about that.
<9b56aa1c-1d65-4641...@t2g2000pbg.googlegroups.com>,
JTEM
Apr 29, 2012, 12:51:37 AM4/29/12
to
Sick fuck, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Nobody was there. There are no witnesses, no photographs
> > and (strangely) not even written accounts. You're focusing in
> > like a laser beam on the speculation and not facts.
> So if nobody was there, what are the facts?
You're telling me that you have no idea how to discern facts
from speculation.
I know. I've always known you were incapable of this. You're
fucked up.
> JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Nobody was there. There are no witnesses, no photographs
> > and (strangely) not even written accounts. You're focusing in
> > like a laser beam on the speculation and not facts.
> So if nobody was there, what are the facts?
You're telling me that you have no idea how to discern facts
from speculation.
I know. I've always known you were incapable of this. You're
fucked up.
Lee Olsen
Apr 29, 2012, 8:39:26 AM4/29/12
to
Science 16 March 2012:
Vol. 335 no. 6074 pp. 1289-1290
News & Analysis
Archaeology
Critics Assail Notion That Europeans Settled Americas
Michael Balter
Summary
Citing similarities in the shape and manufacture of stone tools
found
on both sides of the Atlantic, a pair of archaeologists argues that
at
least 20,000 years ago, at the height of the last ice age, people of
the Solutrean culture of France and Spain made their way by foot and
by boat along the edge of Atlantic ice sheets. Eventually, they
reached the East Coast of North America, and so were the first to
people the New World. This flies in the face of strong evidence,
particularly from genetics, that points to Asian origins for the
first
Americans. So some researchers are outraged by the notion that the
Solutrean hypothesis—which has been a decidedly minority view for
decades—is still taken seriously.
Vol. 335 no. 6074 pp. 1289-1290
News & Analysis
Archaeology
Critics Assail Notion That Europeans Settled Americas
Michael Balter
Summary
Citing similarities in the shape and manufacture of stone tools
found
on both sides of the Atlantic, a pair of archaeologists argues that
at
least 20,000 years ago, at the height of the last ice age, people of
the Solutrean culture of France and Spain made their way by foot and
by boat along the edge of Atlantic ice sheets. Eventually, they
reached the East Coast of North America, and so were the first to
people the New World. This flies in the face of strong evidence,
particularly from genetics, that points to Asian origins for the
first
Americans. So some researchers are outraged by the notion that the
Solutrean hypothesis—which has been a decidedly minority view for
decades—is still taken seriously.
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