Carnivory in hippos
nickname
carnivorous, it's not surprising that hippos on occasion eat meat
especially during drought conditions.
Lee Olsen
I planned on going swimming today (part of following my primal-
littoral instincts), but after seeing that link,
I changed my mind.
Rich Travsky
Those things poop mountains too, I hear...
nickname
The hippo ate the carcass on dry land. He left some for any thirsty &
hungry kudu chasers. ;)
Lee Olsen
But the hippo apparently caught it in the water:
"Field biologist Joseph P. Dudley, formerly at Hwange National Park in
Zimbabwe, observed a male hippo killing an impala ram that had swum
through a pond to evade a wild dog."
I'll take my chances with the wild dog and the kudu, thank you, but
feel free to swim with the hippo if you like.
nickname
Swim? Our well armed inland ancestors didn't swim with hippos, they
were inside their dugouts, something that looks like a floating log to
hippos, crocs, cats, etc. Lots of people still use them, cause they're
so effective for transit in the wild.
Lee Olsen
Sorry, but I forgot, what was the approximate date for the first use
of dugouts?
nickname
What was the approximate date for the first butted hand axe/adze?
What was the approximate date for the first use of fire to make a
dugout?
Perhaps sometime during Aechulean (sp).
I'd expect it required a long learning curve to perfect the design.
Gallery forests and mangrove forests tend to drop trees into rivers.
Many species of trees hollow out from the inside.
Lee Olsen
http://www.didyouknow.cd/animals/hippo.htm
"Nearly all of the famous African explorers and hunters - Livingstone,
Stanley, Burton, Selous, Speke, DuChaillu - had boating mishaps with
hippos. All considered the hippo to be a wantonly malicious beast.
Spencer Tyron, a hunter, was killed while hunting near the shores of
Lake Rukwa, Tanzania. A bull hippo turned over the dugout canoe from
which Tyron was shooting, and bit off his head and shoulders."
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1458532,00.html
"Cape Town - A Cape bridegroom is in counselling after watching
helplessly as a hippopotamus killed his bride in the Okavango Delta
while the couple were on honeymoon in Botswana.
Bruce Simpson, 30, and his wife, Janice, 32, were travelling with a
guide in a canoe on Tuesday when the hippo overturned their boat.
After the hippo tipped the three out of the boat, Simpson watched
helplessly as it closed its jaws on his wife's chest, biting her
through her heart and lung, killing her instantly."
> Lots of people still use them, cause they're
> so effective for transit in the wild.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
nickname
Hippo steak anyone? Shish kabob? Relevance to ancient Homo?
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1458532,00...
> "Cape Town - A Cape bridegroom is in counselling after watching
> helplessly as a hippopotamus killed his bride in the Okavango Delta
> while the couple were on honeymoon in Botswana.
> Bruce Simpson, 30, and his wife, Janice, 32, were travelling with a
> guide in a canoe on Tuesday when the hippo overturned their boat.
> After the hippo tipped the three out of the boat, Simpson watched
> helplessly as it closed its jaws on his wife's chest, biting her
> through her heart and lung, killing her instantly."
>
> > Lots of people still use them, cause they're
> > so effective for transit in the wild.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
Holleewood is back I see, cherry picking again. Pass the popcorn.
Livingstone and friends: Did any of them construct their boats
themselves? Did any of them grow up with hippos in their local
environment? Any resemblance to behavior by Homo erectus? No?
Big shock!
Does simply chipping a hand axe qualify anyone to be a Homo erectus? I
don't think so. Those folks knew their natural environment intimately,
the ones that didn't didn't, didn't reproduce. They didn't use guides
or porters like citified folks do.
Our ancestors were NOT in the non-tidal Okavango delta, which has no
entrance from the sea. Any hominoids there certainly would not have
evolved into humans.
Lee Olsen
Around 1.5 mya, plus or minus something. Proto-bifaces about 1.7 mya
or so.
> What was the approximate date for the first use of fire to make a
> dugout?
Although fire is a nice time saver, it is not really required to make
a dugout, so not much need to worry
about fire.
> Perhaps sometime during Aechulean (sp).
>
What did Homo e (or his ancestors) do inland, on the savanna, for the
intervening million years or so before hand axes were invented and
presumably dugouts were built?
> I'd expect it required a long learning curve to perfect the design.
Yes, about as long as part of the Holocene.
>
> Gallery forests and mangrove forests tend to drop trees into rivers.
So, given the lack of high tech butted-axes to build dugouts during
the Oldowan phase, just exactly how did all
the sites get inland without dugouts?
> Many species of trees hollow out from the inside.
So, how many of today's dugouts are made from rotten logs?
Lee Olsen
Dugouts don't protect you from hippos, now or then.
> http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1458532,00...
>
> > "Cape Town - A Cape bridegroom is in counselling after watching
> > helplessly as a hippopotamus killed his bride in the Okavango Delta
> > while the couple were on honeymoon in Botswana.
> > Bruce Simpson, 30, and his wife, Janice, 32, were travelling with a
> > guide in a canoe on Tuesday when the hippo overturned their boat.
> > After the hippo tipped the three out of the boat, Simpson watched
> > helplessly as it closed its jaws on his wife's chest, biting her
> > through her heart and lung, killing her instantly."
>
> > > Lots of people still use them, cause they're
> > > so effective for transit in the wild.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> Holleewood is back I see, cherry picking again. Pass the popcorn.
Imagination is back I see, please pass the counter-evidence, I'm
getting a little
tired trying to digest brainless lip-service with no butter.
>
> Livingstone and friends: Did any of them construct their boats
> themselves?
Since they had steel tech and Homo e didn't, why would whether or not
making it themselves be an argument?
The famous Canadian explorer David Thompson did, I don't see what the
problem would be why they couldn't have if they had wanted.
>Did any of them grow up with hippos in their local
> environment?
Good point. When Lewis and Clark asked the NAs who lived in the "local
environment" about the huge bears rumored to be out west, the "locals"
advised L&C to stay well away from them. So, of course, they didn't
take the advice and nearly got themselves killed. The only difference
between L&C and Tyron was luck.
> Any resemblance to behavior by Homo erectus?
So, in your opinion, a hippo could not bite off the head of Homo e,
presumably because he was a better sailor?
> No?
Yes, Lewis and Clark learned the hard way to stay well away from
grizzly bears, I imagine Homo e found out to stay well
away from hippos also.
> Big shock!
Yes, big critters have big teeth.
>
> Does simply chipping a hand axe qualify anyone to be a Homo erectus?
Does simply chipping a hand axe qualify anyone to be a dugout builder?
> I
> don't think so. Those folks knew their natural environment intimately,
> the ones that didn't didn't, didn't reproduce. They didn't use guides
> or porters like citified folks do.
I'm beginning to see your logic now, if you don't make dugouts you
can't reproduce.
>
> Our ancestors were NOT in the non-tidal Okavango delta, which has no
> entrance from the sea. Any hominoids there certainly would not have
> evolved into humans.
And?
nickname
That fits with the transition from nonbutted core (for butchering
flakes/blades) to butted hand axe (wood craft), and is after Homo
switched from part-time arborealist biped to non-arborealist biped
(except coconuts).
> > What was the approximate date for the first use of fire to make a
> > dugout?
>
> Although fire is a nice time saver, it is not really required to make
> a dugout, so not much need to worry
> about fire.
>
> > Perhaps sometime during Aechulean (sp).
>
> What did Homo e (or his ancestors) do inland, on the savanna, for the
> intervening million years or so before hand axes were invented and
> presumably dugouts were built?
[del] dig wells on fortified hilltops and chase kudus? [/del]
seems unlikely to me...
The first hand axes were just discarded cores, later ones were used
for chiseling/gouging materials, but probably not for cutting meat.
The Morocco whale carcass fossil with stone tools, were those butted
hand axes? Those axes may have been used to craft whaling dugout
boats, if whales got trapped while birthing in lagoons there. In Baja
Calif. whales accumulate in a few lagoons during birthing, much easier
to kill or scavenge them from boats, lagoons have smaller waves so
small dugouts would be safer there than on open seas. Yes, this
requires imagination, since I don't recall the details etc...
> > I'd expect it required a long learning curve to perfect the design.
>
> Yes, about as long as part of the Holocene.
>
> > Gallery forests and mangrove forests tend to drop trees into rivers.
>
> So, given the lack of high tech butted-axes to build dugouts during
> the Oldowan phase, just exactly how did all
> the sites get inland without dugouts?
AFAIK, hominids used simple stone tools (as chimps still do), non-Homo
kin were moving upstream along gallery forests, becoming more and more
arboreal due to natural selection. Meanwhile Homo was on the coasts
slowly improving their aquatic/tool technology.
> > Many species of trees hollow out from the inside.
>
> So, how many of today's dugouts are made from rotten logs?
I've no idea, since most are made with modern metal tools and fire
afaik.
Larry Caldwell
pale...@hotmail.com (Lee Olsen) says...
> Sorry, but I forgot, what was the approximate date for the first use
> of dugouts?
The first Australians had to cross substantial open water to colonize
the new land. We don't know what they used for the task, but dugouts
are a good guess. 55,000 years BP.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Lee Olsen
> flakes/blades) to butted hand axe (wood craft),
1) Cite your source for any evidence that butted hand axes were used
for "(wood craft)"
during the Pleistocene.
2) Cite any source where hand axes have been used to make a dugout
experimentally.
Pleistocene handaxes are no better suited for building dugouts than
they are for doing brain surgery.
>and is after Homo
> switched from part-time arborealist biped to non-arborealist biped
Cite your source for this.
> (except coconuts).
>
> > > What was the approximate date for the first use of fire to make a
> > > dugout?
>
> > Although fire is a nice time saver, it is not really required to make
> > a dugout, so not much need to worry
> > about fire.
>
> > > Perhaps sometime during Aechulean (sp).
>
> > What did Homo e (or his ancestors) do inland, on the savanna, for the
> > intervening million years or so before hand axes were invented and
> > presumably dugouts were built?
>
> [del] dig wells on fortified hilltops and chase kudus? [/del]
Cite your source for wells on fortified hilltops.
As I said, you don't read very well or the other possibility is you
imagined it from thin air.
> seems unlikely to me...
Since you can't read, I'm not surprised.
>
> The first hand axes were just discarded cores,
The first bifaces/hand axes were were deliberately shaped (Jones
1994). Further,
secondary-trimming flakes are far too small on some handaxes to be of
any value for use.
More flakes can be obtained fron an amorphous core
(such as those from Gona a million years before) than a deliberately
shaped hand axe of the same size.
These two observations prove purpose. This, however, doesn't preclude
the use of some of the larger flakes
made during manufacture of a biface/hand axe being used for tools
also.
> later ones were used
> for chiseling/gouging materials, but probably not for cutting meat.
This statement falls right in there with the classic: "Chimps do NOT
have the capacity to dig."
Peter Jones, a master flintknapper, cut up 5 elephants, a zebra and a
goat:
"The main conclusion reached was that large, generally bifacially
flaked tools are more efficient
than small, plain flakes for most butchery tasks (Jones 1980:153,
1994)."
For use-wear tests on flint hand axes, see Keeley 1977 and Keeley and
Newcomer 1977.
Same result, butchery wear at the tip, not the butt end of the axes
they tested.
>
> The Morocco whale carcass fossil
As I said above, you don't seem to read very well. That's Angola....
> with stone tools, were those butted
> hand axes?
http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/whale.html
"Olduvaian choppers and flakes."
Like I said, you don't read very well.
>Those axes may have been used to craft whaling dugout
> boats, if whales got trapped while birthing in lagoons there. In Baja
> Calif. whales accumulate in a few lagoons during birthing, much easier
> to kill or scavenge them from boats, lagoons have smaller waves so
> small dugouts would be safer there than on open seas. Yes, this
> requires imagination, since I don't recall the details etc...
All I've seen on this whale are secondary reports. One is going to
have to look at the site report
to see just exactly what these tools looked like/size and how many
they have.
But for the time being, you don't make dugouts with Oldowan choppers
or flakes. So much for your
imagination.
>
> > > I'd expect it required a long learning curve to perfect the design.
>
> > Yes, about as long as part of the Holocene.
>
> > > Gallery forests and mangrove forests tend to drop trees into rivers.
>
> > So, given the lack of high tech butted-axes to build dugouts during
> > the Oldowan phase, just exactly how did all
> > the sites get inland without dugouts?
>
> AFAIK, hominids used simple stone tools (as chimps still do),
Chimps do not use simple stone tools in the wild. You are as
illiterate as Verhaegin.
You need to look up the definition of "tool" in a good dictionary.
Since you don't read very well, only Homo has been proven to make core
"stone" tools.
In captivity, chimps can be taught to make a flake, but there is no
evidence they have ever done this in the
wild. Chimps can *not* be taught the basics of conchoidal fracture,
something that was completely
understood at Gona 2.6 mya by Homo.
There is no such thing as a "simple" stone tool when comparing what
chimps can make and what
presumably early Homo made. Lithic tools are not made by anyone but
Homo until demonstrated otherwise.
> non-Homo
> kin were moving upstream along gallery forests, becoming more and more
> arboreal due to natural selection.
Cite your source.
> Meanwhile Homo was on the coasts
> slowly improving their aquatic/tool technology.
based on the same DD mentality that determined that "Olduvaian
choppers" were used to make dugouts at the Angola whale site.
>
> > > Many species of trees hollow out from the inside.
>
> > So, how many of today's dugouts are made from rotten logs?
>
> I've no idea, since most are made with modern metal tools and fire
> afaik.
So why did you mention "Many species of trees hollow out from the
inside"
if you don't know if they were used for dugouts or not?