May I register sage-notebook [et al.] on Gmane?

[Keshav Kini]

Hi,

The Google Groups interface is really terrible IMHO (especially since it doesn't allow you to write plain text emails anymore), so I've been looking into using a newsreader to access sage-devel. Gmane_ is a website which archives public mailing lists, especially those related to free software. Besides a web interface, it also provides an NNTP server, so you can use a news client to read the list. sage-devel, happily, is already archived there, and so are sage-support and a couple other Sage-related mailing lists, but sage-notebook is not. How would people feel about me registering it? What about other sage-related lists like sage-release, sage-flame, sage-windows, etc.?

CCing sage-devel so more people will see this.

.. _Gmane: http://gmane.org/

-Keshav

----
Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net !

[kcrisman]

On Feb 4, 4:51 pm, Keshav Kini <keshav.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The Google Groups interface is really terrible IMHO (especially since it
> doesn't allow you to write plain text emails anymore), so I've been looking

It doesn't? I think that's what I'm doing right now... using
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-notebook

[Keshav Kini]

Right, I'm referring to the "new" Web 2.0 -ish UI at http://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sage-notebook/ . I think it's opt-in, so you might not be seeing it by default, but unfortunately I seem to have opted in at some point. Maybe there's a way to opt out, but I suspect that much like with the recent Gmail overhaul, Google is going to drag us kicking and screaming into this UI too :) Besides not supporting plaintext emails, it's also really buggy (possibly because it's still in development, but still) and interfaces badly with Firefox extensions such as Pentadactyl_ because it uses weird editable <div>s or something for the input boxes instead of the standard <input type="textarea">.

.. _Pentadactyl: http://dactyl.sourceforge.net/pentadactyl

[Jason]

I have no problem with moving away from Google groups.

[William Stein]

On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Jason <jason.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no problem with moving away from Google groups.

Is that even what Kini was suggesting? Is he suggesting deleting the
sage-notebook google group and creating a new group to replace it at
GMAME?

I *do* have a problem with that suggestion.

-- William

--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

[Harald Schilly]

On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 20:07, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is that even what Kini was suggesting?

no, it's the same as for sage-devel.
e.g. here you can read his posting (currently at the top):
http://www.mail-archive.com/sage-...@googlegroups.com/

h

[William Stein]

Then big +1

> h

[Keshav Kini]

I've submitted sage-notebook for archival. Gmane does not
automatically know how to search the currently existing Google
archives of this group, though, so only new posts will be archived,
unless someone can provide an .mbox file containing old messages. Does
anyone have or can anyone prepare such an .mbox file, preferably going
back to the founding of this group? See http://gmane.org/import.php
for more info. I think it would be desirable to do this as a form of
backup (see below).

Some corrections:

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 03:03, Jason <jason.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no problem with moving away from Google groups.

Definitely not suggesting that, though I wouldn't have a problem with
that either, if the maintainers decide to do that. I was surprised to
find that John Resig proclaimed back in 2009 that `Google Groups is
dead`_. I don't know how much trouble we have with spam. I don't see
much if any, but maybe that's just because the group maintainers are
very watchful. More concerning is the lack of support for Google
Groups from the Data Liberation Front at Google. If our group gets
shut down for whatever reason, do we have a backup of all messages?
How can we get a backup?

.. _Google Groups is dead: http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 03:07, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is that even what Kini was suggesting? Is he suggesting deleting the
> sage-notebook google group and creating a new group to replace it at
> GMAME?

No, that's not what I'm suggesting. BTW I'm Keshav and the archive
service is Gmane :)

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 03:12, Harald Schilly <harald....@gmail.com> wrote:
> e.g. here you can read his posting (currently at the top):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/sage-...@googlegroups.com/

The Mail Archive is a different service from Gmane. Gmane has nicer
features, such as allowing nntp access, and it has a cooler web
frontend: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mathematics.sage.devel . I
submitted sage-notebook to The Mail Archive as well, though (there's
an option to do so on the Gmane submission page).

[William Stein]

On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Keshav Kini <kesha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 03:03, Jason <jason.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have no problem with moving away from Google groups.
>
> Definitely not suggesting that, though I wouldn't have a problem with
> that either, if the maintainers decide to do that. I was surprised to
> find that John Resig proclaimed back in 2009 that `Google Groups is
> dead`_.

I think they were a pain back for a while in 2009. They were being
neglected by Google and getting attacked by spammers.

> I don't know how much trouble we have with spam. I don't see
> much if any, but maybe that's just because the group maintainers are
> very watchful.

Google groups makes it reasonable easy to deal with spam, IMHO,
especially given that people have to answer a question to join the
groups, and it is easy to ban people as well.

> More concerning is the lack of support for Google
> Groups from the Data Liberation Front at Google. If our group gets
> shut down for whatever reason, do we have a backup of all messages?
> How can we get a backup?

I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, and I have all my email in
Thunderbird's mbox's on my laptop. So there's that. But having a
Gmane copy of all the messages is of course much better. We should
always set that up for all sage-related groups.

>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 03:12, Harald Schilly <harald....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> e.g. here you can read his posting (currently at the top):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/sage-...@googlegroups.com/
>
> The Mail Archive is a different service from Gmane. Gmane has nicer
> features, such as allowing nntp access, and it has a cooler web
> frontend: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mathematics.sage.devel . I
> submitted sage-notebook to The Mail Archive as well, though (there's
> an option to do so on the Gmane submission page).
>
> -Keshav
>
> ----
> Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net !

--

[Keshav Kini]

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:33, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  More concerning is the lack of support for Google
>> Groups from the Data Liberation Front at Google. If our group gets
>> shut down for whatever reason, do we have a backup of all messages?
>> How can we get a backup?
>
> I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, and I have all my email in
> Thunderbird's mbox's on my laptop.  So there's that.  But having a
> Gmane copy of all the messages is of course much better.  We should
> always set that up for all sage-related groups.

OK, that's excellent news. I will register on Gmane all the lists
mentioned on the `Information for Developers`_ page on sagemath.org.
Once they are all set up and listening for new messages, perhaps I can
ask you to extract from your personal Thunderbox mbox and compile mbox
files for each of them to submit to Gmane as backlogs?

Thanks!

-Keshav

.. _Information for Developers: http://sagemath.org/development.html

[Keshav Kini]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 14:25, Keshav Kini <kesha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thunderbox

Er. Thunderbird.

-Keshav

[Keshav Kini]

I have received an email from Gmane telling me that it has applied for a subscription to the sage-notebook list, and sage-notebook will appear on Gmane as soon as the first message from the list is received by its server.

Could someone check the subscription requests and see if this has worked?

-Keshav

----
Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net !

[Dima Pasechnik]

ping, Gmane! Come LIVE!

(/me then makes a ritual virtual sacrifice of a black chicken on his keyboard)

[Keshav Kini]

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 15:23, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ping, Gmane! Come LIVE!
> (/me then makes a ritual virtual sacrifice of a black chicken on his
> keyboard)

Unfortunately I think the problem is just that nobody has approved
Gmane's subscription to the google group, so sending a ping message
will not help...

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Thursday, 8 March 2012 17:03:12 UTC+8, Keshav Kini wrote:

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 15:23, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ping, Gmane! Come LIVE!
> (/me then makes a ritual virtual sacrifice of a black chicken on his
> keyboard)

Unfortunately I think the problem is just that nobody has approved
Gmane's subscription to the google group, so sending a ping message
will not help...

who is to blame here? 

[Harald Schilly]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 17:31, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> who is to blame here?

I'm one of the admins, but there wasn't an email to approve. Maybe one
of the other admins ths deleted it? Do you know the email?

H

[Keshav Kini]

Nope. I was not CC'd this email, unfortunately...

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tuesday, 13 March 2012 01:28:52 UTC+8, Keshav Kini wrote:

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 00:37, Harald Schilly  wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 17:31, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> who is to blame here?
>
> I'm one of the admins, but there wasn't an email to approve. Maybe one
> of the other admins ths deleted it? Do you know the email?

Nope. I was not CC'd this email, unfortunately...

Search the corresponding Gmail Bin?

Reapply at gmane?

Even better if Harald does this, as then the request to join won't get lost...

[Keshav Kini]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:56, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Search the corresponding Gmail Bin?
> Reapply at gmane?
> Even better if Harald does this, as then the request to join won't get
> lost...

I sent a mail to gmane.discuss: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/14722

[Keshav Kini]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Keshav Kini <kesha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I sent a mail to gmane.discuss: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/14722

I sent another mail to gmane.discuss, and this time it was answered.
Admins of this group, please check the subscription backlog! Is there
anything there?

-Keshav

[Harald Schilly]

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 5:47:25 AM UTC+2, Keshav Kini wrote:

Admins of this group, please check the subscription backlog! Is there
anything there?

Well, it doesn't look like it is. requests are either granted immediately or deleted. It would be much better if they tell you their email address. Then we can add it directly.

H

[Keshav Kini]

OK, it looks like sage-notebook is fully registered to Gmane now. Thanks to whoever did whatever caused this :)

-Keshav