Mac application licensing question
Ivan Andrus
Therefore, I have created a version of Sage.app which I am happy
enough with to share with people. I have added instructions on the
wiki at http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageMacApplication and would like to
add a pre-packaged version so that it is very simple for users to
download a working application.
The problem that I worry about though, is that Fluid is not open
sourced. It creates a Mac OS X application (a directory structure
really) which I modify to fit the needs of sage (e.g. including sage
in the application). Can anyone comment on the legality of
distributing a closed source application (or at least the output of
one) along with a GPL'ed one? Will I run into problems from the GPL
side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
so hopefully that won't be an issue...
Also what are the possibilities of getting an "official" Mac
application? Either Platypus or Fluid based (or both) would probably
be okay with me, though I think they both need some work before they
are fully satisfactory.
Comments and suggestions of any kind are more than welcome. As soon
as I am comfortable distributing it, I will package up a version and
put it on the wiki.
-Ivan
William Stein
>
> Fluid has been updated fixing the largest (in my mind) bug.
> Therefore, I have created a version of Sage.app which I am happy
> enough with to share with people. I have added instructions on the
> wiki at http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageMacApplication and would like to
> add a pre-packaged version so that it is very simple for users to
> download a working application.
>
> The problem that I worry about though, is that Fluid is not open
> sourced. It creates a Mac OS X application (a directory structure
> really) which I modify to fit the needs of sage (e.g. including sage
> in the application). Can anyone comment on the legality of
> distributing a closed source application (or at least the output of
> one) along with a GPL'ed one?
Just for clarification, you're only talking about distributiong the OUTPUT of
a non-GPL'd program? You're not distributing the program itself at all but
just the output of the program, right?
> Will I run into problems from the GPL
> side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
> so hopefully that won't be an issue...
You can't distribute gpl'd and non-gpl'd compiled code together
as a single application. I can't tell yet whether you're even doing
that.
>
> Also what are the possibilities of getting an "official" Mac
> application? Either Platypus or Fluid based (or both) would probably
> be okay with me, though I think they both need some work before they
> are fully satisfactory.
>
> Comments and suggestions of any kind are more than welcome. As soon
> as I am comfortable distributing it, I will package up a version and
> put it on the wiki.
I bet this is going to be fine. It's like using an MSI installer to distribute
firefox on windows or something. Can you find *any* precedents, i.e.,
examples of GPL'd program distributed using Fluid?
Screen shots?
-- William
Ivan Andrus
> OUTPUT of
> a non-GPL'd program? You're not distributing the program itself at
> all but
> just the output of the program, right?
Correct. I guess it's confusing since the output of said program _is_
a program.
>> Will I run into problems from the GPL
>> side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
>> so hopefully that won't be an issue...
>
> You can't distribute gpl'd and non-gpl'd compiled code together
> as a single application. I can't tell yet whether you're even doing
> that.
I can't either. What is meant by "application"? I would like the
experience for the user to be 100% seamless. Does that mean that it's
an application? What I really want to do is include an entire sage
distribution in Sage.app so that you can dowload it, drag it to
Applications, launch it, and go. I don't want the user to have to
compile things, etc. That would mean a Mac application that at some
point was compiled (though not by me) and was handed to me by a closed-
source application together with a compiled version of sage which is
GPL.
What is meant by compiled code? Anything other than text? I guess
I'll have to read the GPL again (it's been several years). Ugh. If
only I could live my life without licensing worries...
> I bet this is going to be fine. It's like using an MSI installer to
> distribute
> firefox on windows or something. Can you find *any* precedents,
> i.e.,
> examples of GPL'd program distributed using Fluid?
I haven't. For most cases it's probably easier to tell them to
download Fluid since all you have to do is type in a URL. As far as I
know, I am the only one who has really hacked Fluid to do something it
was never intended to do (be a vehicle for another application).
-Ivan
David Joyner
>
> Fluid has been updated fixing the largest (in my mind) bug.
> Therefore, I have created a version of Sage.app which I am happy
> enough with to share with people. I have added instructions on the
> wiki at http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageMacApplication and would like to
> add a pre-packaged version so that it is very simple for users to
> download a working application.
>
> The problem that I worry about though, is that Fluid is not open
> sourced. It creates a Mac OS X application (a directory structure
> really) which I modify to fit the needs of sage (e.g. including sage
> in the application). Can anyone comment on the legality of
> distributing a closed source application (or at least the output of
> one) along with a GPL'ed one? Will I run into problems from the GPL
> side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
> so hopefully that won't be an issue...
William is correct - the copyright on a program does not apply to its output,
if that is the question you are asking. At least I've read that is
true in the US.
(Understanding copyright law, 4th ed,, by Leaffer) I'm not sure about
other countries.
William Stein
>
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 2:04 AM, Ivan Andrus <gv...@macmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> > Fluid has been updated fixing the largest (in my mind) bug.
> > Therefore, I have created a version of Sage.app which I am happy
> > enough with to share with people. I have added instructions on the
> > wiki at http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageMacApplication and would like to
> > add a pre-packaged version so that it is very simple for users to
> > download a working application.
> >
> > The problem that I worry about though, is that Fluid is not open
> > sourced. It creates a Mac OS X application (a directory structure
> > really) which I modify to fit the needs of sage (e.g. including sage
> > in the application). Can anyone comment on the legality of
> > distributing a closed source application (or at least the output of
> > one) along with a GPL'ed one? Will I run into problems from the GPL
> > side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
> > so hopefully that won't be an issue...
>
> William is correct - the copyright on a program does not apply to its output,
> if that is the question you are asking. At least I've read that is
> true in the US.
> (Understanding copyright law, 4th ed,, by Leaffer) I'm not sure about
> other countries.
I didn't make that claim. I just asked the original poster to clarify
his question.
I could write a program, e.g., tar, that has "output" that is GPL'd, i.e.,
sage-2.10.2.tar
is such an output.
William
David Joyner
You could but that is not what I said I said that the same copyright protection
which applies to a program does not apply to its output. You could use
winzip pro (which I assume for the same of discussion is closed source
but creates tarballs) to create sage-2.10.3.tar and the tarball would
still be GPL'd.
That is because the copyright protection which applies to winzip pro does
not apply to its output.
>
> William
>
>
>
> >
>
William Stein
>
> > Just for clarification, you're only talking about distributiong the
> > OUTPUT of
> > a non-GPL'd program? You're not distributing the program itself at
> > all but
> > just the output of the program, right?
>
> Correct. I guess it's confusing since the output of said program _is_
> a program.
>
>
> >> Will I run into problems from the GPL
> >> side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
> >> so hopefully that won't be an issue...
> >
> > You can't distribute gpl'd and non-gpl'd compiled code together
> > as a single application. I can't tell yet whether you're even doing
> > that.
>
> I can't either. What is meant by "application"? I would like the
> experience for the user to be 100% seamless. Does that mean that it's
> an application? What I really want to do is include an entire sage
> distribution in Sage.app so that you can dowload it, drag it to
> Applications, launch it, and go. I don't want the user to have to
> compile things, etc. That would mean a Mac application that at some
> point was compiled (though not by me) and was handed to me by a closed-
> source application together with a compiled version of sage which is
> GPL.
>
The following might be acceptable.
(1) The user downloads a Fluid app.
(2) The user downloads a separate sage-2.10.2.dmg (say).
(3) When Fluid app runs it asks for the location of the sage dmg, extracts it
"into itself", and uses that.
Then the combination of Fluid with Sage only happens after the user installs
the programs, so it doesn't violate the GPL in letter. Also sage-2.10.2.dmg
also works by itself, and decoupling Fluid and sage-*dmg will make it so
people can easily upgrade sage without you having to make a new sage+fluid
application. Is this possible?
William Stein
>
> Fluid has been updated fixing the largest (in my mind) bug.
> Therefore, I have created a version of Sage.app which I am happy
> enough with to share with people. I have added instructions on the
> wiki at http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageMacApplication and would like to
> add a pre-packaged version so that it is very simple for users to
> download a working application.
Could you post a version somewhere so I can try it out?
>
> The problem that I worry about though, is that Fluid is not open
> sourced. It creates a Mac OS X application (a directory structure
> really) which I modify to fit the needs of sage (e.g. including sage
> in the application). Can anyone comment on the legality of
> distributing a closed source application (or at least the output of
> one) along with a GPL'ed one? Will I run into problems from the GPL
> side of things? I recently asked about permission on the Fluid side,
> so hopefully that won't be an issue...
>
> Also what are the possibilities of getting an "official" Mac
> application? Either Platypus or Fluid based (or both) would probably
> be okay with me, though I think they both need some work before they
> are fully satisfactory.
>
> Comments and suggestions of any kind are more than welcome. As soon
> as I am comfortable distributing it, I will package up a version and
> put it on the wiki.
>
> -Ivan
>
> >
>
--
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
Ivan Andrus
> The following might be acceptable.
>
> (1) The user downloads a Fluid app.
>
> (2) The user downloads a separate sage-2.10.2.dmg (say).
>
> (3) When Fluid app runs it asks for the location of the sage dmg,
> extracts it
> "into itself", and uses that.
>
> Then the combination of Fluid with Sage only happens after the user
> installs
> the programs, so it doesn't violate the GPL in letter. Also
> sage-2.10.2.dmg
> also works by itself, and decoupling Fluid and sage-*dmg will make
> it so
> people can easily upgrade sage without you having to make a new sage
> +fluid
> application. Is this possible?
That would be possible (isn't anything) but would be much different
than now, since it would require some sort of user interface to be
written to do that. I think at that point I may as well start from
scratch with a brand new application. That's probably the best thing
anyway, but I'm not sure that I am up to it at the moment. I can't
even seem to find time to get this working.
> Could you post a version somewhere so I can try it out?
I have also uploaded
http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageMacApplication?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Sage-fluid.zip
which does not include a copy of sage. It does contain a script that
I use to combine the sage fluid-app and the sage distribution. All
you have to do is put a sage directory (as off of a .dmg from
sagemath.org) in the same folder and run make-sage-app.sh. This is
not how I would like to distribute it ideally, but on the other hand,
it may be better than what we have right now.
I don't think the fact that I include the "source code" for the Fluid-
derived app (i.e. the fact that I typed http://localhost:8000/ into a
dialog) will satisfy RMS's raging zombies of freedom. I do have a
completely packaged version and would like to distribute it, but think
that it's probably not legal to do so. I would really rather not get
in any trouble.
If anyone wants
I am also looking into adding a browser to Platypus. I think that may
be a superior solution, but it will undoubtedly be more work.
On a slightly different note, does it count as distributing it if I
only give it to a friend? In other words does distributing mean
giving it to anyone, or just making it public? Surely, it must mean
the latter?
-Ivan Andrus
David Joyner
from http://fluidapp.com/
the zip file. There is a subdirectory for licenses but the fluid
license isn't in it only
the (BSD-like) licenses for the components.
BTW, it appears to be Leopard only and the website says is similar to
Mozilla's prism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Prism,
which is open source and cross platform. Have you tried creating
something similar
with prism?
gv...@macmail.com
> from http://fluidapp.com/ the zip file. There is a subdirectory for
> licenses but the fluid license isn't in it only the (BSD-like) licenses for
> the components.
Actually the README.txt is probably as close as you will get. I don't
know where the license is. There may not even be one. For some reason
that never bothered me until now. :-(
> BTW, it appears to be Leopard only and the website says is similar to
> Mozilla's prism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Prism,
> which is open source and cross platform. Have you tried creating something
> similar with prism?
Yes, it is Leopard only. I couldn't get Prism to work at all, but maybe I
should try again. I would rather (for selfish reasons) have a Webkit
browser than Gecko-based one. Of course, I can always use whatever I want
at home...
The further I get into this the less I think Fluid is going to work. That
is slightly saddening since I think it's a rather nice application. I'll
keep looking for other alternatives though.
-Ivan
--
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