notebook share button
William Stein
I implementing the feature in the notebook before where it lists all
users when you click on "Share". I thought this was nice, since you
could chose the ones you want. There are now 6598 users at
sagenb.org, which makes the share button nearly useless. Are people
OK with us changing "share" so it doesn't list any other usernames?
It would of course be an easy one-line patch.
William
--
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
Jason Grout
> Hi,
>
> I implementing the feature in the notebook before where it lists all
> users when you click on "Share". I thought this was nice, since you
> could chose the ones you want. There are now 6598 users at
> sagenb.org, which makes the share button nearly useless. Are people
> OK with us changing "share" so it doesn't list any other usernames?
> It would of course be an easy one-line patch.
Could you make the box use tab-completion on the username?
Jason
Maurizio
implementing folders in SAGE notebook?
I would really appreciate, since the number of my notebooks is growing
fast, and I'm wondering how you guys are managing it, maybe the
feature it's already there and I don't know about it.
Thanks
Maurizio
William Stein
>
> I know this is not being polite from me, but would you also consider
> implementing folders in SAGE notebook?
>
> I would really appreciate, since the number of my notebooks is growing
> fast, and I'm wondering how you guys are managing it, maybe the
> feature it's already there and I don't know about it.
>
Thanks for the feature request. That feature is *not* there, and yes,
we definitely need to implement it.
Would you be OK with labels instead of folders? I.e., you could
attach any number of labels to each worksheet, and easily see a list
of all worksheets with a given label? I personally find labels more
flexible than folders (since a worksheet can have multiple labels),
and I think they're also easier to implement.
-- William
Jason Grout
I know Mike Hansen was working on labels/tags at one point. Mike?
-Jason
Maurizio
Well, I find that labels are SO beautiful and powerful, especially
something like the way gmail let us use them. I agree that probably a
label system, incorporated with an efficient search method (or
filtering) would probably be even better to use and (maybe) easier to
implement than folders.
Thank you very much!!
By the way, kudos for the good job, and congratulations for the Sun
article, you are certainly deserving to gain popularity!
PS: I still encourage you to improve engineering features ;)
On 19 Mar, 22:19, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
William Stein
>
> You are so kind in asking me this!
>
> Well, I find that labels are SO beautiful and powerful, especially
> something like the way gmail let us use them. I agree that probably a
> label system, incorporated with an efficient search method (or
> filtering) would probably be even better to use and (maybe) easier to
> implement than folders.
My plan would be to implement labels in say exactly the same way as
gmail, so that we don't have to do any user-interface design. I.e.,
we would have colors, and menus just like gmails for labels. Of
course the underlying code to implement this would be all new.
I'm not personally going to do this anytime soon, since other things
are higher priorities for me right now: (1) finishing our Brandt
Modules implementation, (2) porting Sage to Windows.
>
> Thank you very much!!
>
> By the way, kudos for the good job, and congratulations for the Sun
> article, you are certainly deserving to gain popularity!
>
> PS: I still encourage you to improve engineering features ;)
Definitely. In response, I encourage you to keep asking for them. :-)
Minh Nguyen
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Maurizio <maurizio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> PS: I still encourage you to improve engineering features ;)
Just to prevent misunderstanding on my part, is it possible for you to
give an (incomplete) list of engineering features you have in mind, or
engineering features you think should be improved?
For example, with a Sage terminal session as opposed to a notebook
session, I personally think some terminal output should be displayed
with various colours. Such colour output is a nice and easy way of
distinguishing different types of output. Say, the "sage: " prompt can
coloured using one colour, error and traceback messages can be
coloured using another colour, etc. What I have in mind is something
like what one would get with a Pari/GP terminal session. Here is such
a coloured session under Windows, in case you want a visual:
http://mvngu.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/windows-session.png
I recently had a meeting with a maths educator who is very interested
in using Sage for undergraduate maths and cryptography. The above
coloured output issue is one of his feature requests.
--
Regards
Minh Van Nguyen
William Stein
Have you tried editing
$HOME/.sage/ipython/ipythonrc
? It has numerous color options, which are off by default since it is
not possible to tell if the user's terminal has a white or black
background, and any choice of colors looks like crap if you guess
wrong about the background color.
That said, with the latest verison of ipython in Sage, tracebacks at
startup get colored some horrible super-light grey, so I can't read
them on my machine without highlighting them.
William
Minh Nguyen
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:23 PM, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>> I recently had a meeting with a maths educator who is very interested
>> in using Sage for undergraduate maths and cryptography. The above
>> coloured output issue is one of his feature requests.
>
> Have you tried editing
>
> $HOME/.sage/ipython/ipythonrc
>
> ? It has numerous color options, which are off by default since it is
> not possible to tell if the user's terminal has a white or black
> background, and any choice of colors looks like crap if you guess
> wrong about the background color.
>
> That said, with the latest verison of ipython in Sage, tracebacks at
> startup get colored some horrible super-light grey, so I can't read
> them on my machine without highlighting them.
I must say, "Thank you very, very much for the tip!" I have absolutely
no idea about that. I'll look into it sometime in the near future and
get back to the said maths educator on the colour issue.
Maurizio
From my point of view, I was talking about enhancing the engineer
oriented SAGE functions.
My personal list is continuously growing as long as I use SAGE (it's
just 4 months now...not that much).
For example, my first concern was how to produce nice and useful Bode
plots. I could figure out how to do that with matplotlib (even though
I would have appreciated something like a semilogx or loglog plot
function, please forgive me but I have used Matlab for sooooo long!).
Then I didn't like the inability to zoom and pan within those plots.
And so, mostly thanks to Kenny's help, I was able to have Bode plots
in FLOT, which allows me some beautiful online interaction (I mostly
use the notebook).
Then, I went through the integration issues, and Laplace and Fourier
transform. In SAGE there is no support for delta functions, step
functions, and all those important features for powerful symbolic
representation in these transform domains.
Then, I recalled how useful was unit of measurements management with
Mathcad, and now I'm trying to deal with it.
So, up to now, my wishlist is:
- better Laplace, Fourier, Zeta, any other transform management
(especially in symbolic)
- unit of measurement integration
- extensible comparison between different implementations of all those
features in the different packages (better to do the limit/integral/
anything else with maxima, or with sympy, or with sympycore, or with
pynac???)
- NEW: labels in the notebook :) colors would be VERY nice as well!
I hope you don't ban me, but I can tell you I will come with many more
requests soon... I'm afraid to be to annoying, but I really enjoy this
stuff! Many thanks!
Regards
Maurizio
Minh Nguyen
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Maurizio <maurizio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I hope I didn't get misunderstood :)
>
> From my point of view, I was talking about enhancing the engineer
> oriented SAGE functions.
OK, I thought you meant the *software* engineering part of Sage
itself, as opposed to say the features that are useful for an
engineer. Thank you very much for clarifying this issue, and your
growing wish list is certainly very welcome. Keep them coming!
> My personal list is continuously growing as long as I use SAGE (it's
> just 4 months now...not that much).
>
> For example, my first concern was how to produce nice and useful Bode
> plots. I could figure out how to do that with matplotlib (even though
> I would have appreciated something like a semilogx or loglog plot
> function, please forgive me but I have used Matlab for sooooo long!).
> Then I didn't like the inability to zoom and pan within those plots.
> And so, mostly thanks to Kenny's help, I was able to have Bode plots
> in FLOT, which allows me some beautiful online interaction (I mostly
> use the notebook).
With regards to Bode plot, do you mean something like the following?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bode_plot
> Then, I went through the integration issues, and Laplace and Fourier
> transform. In SAGE there is no support for delta functions, step
> functions, and all those important features for powerful symbolic
> representation in these transform domains.
>
> Then, I recalled how useful was unit of measurements management with
> Mathcad, and now I'm trying to deal with it.
>
> So, up to now, my wishlist is:
> - better Laplace, Fourier, Zeta, any other transform management
> (especially in symbolic)
> - unit of measurement integration
> - extensible comparison between different implementations of all those
> features in the different packages (better to do the limit/integral/
> anything else with maxima, or with sympy, or with sympycore, or with
> pynac???)
> - NEW: labels in the notebook :) colors would be VERY nice as well!
>
> I hope you don't ban me,
No offense taken.
Keep the feature requests coming. It's one way of knowing what's
missing in Sage. I personally think that developers of maths software
should be attuned to their users.
> but I can tell you I will come with many more
> requests soon... I'm afraid to be to annoying, but I really enjoy this
> stuff! Many thanks!
--
Regards
Minh Van Nguyen
kcrisman
for something else, and lo and behold I found the feature of a
complete list VERY useful, e.g. to share something with precisely the
students enrolled in class X and not have to look at a list of all
their names and type in guesses at their usernames...
So I would add that at least for a smaller server, it would be useful
to have the option to show all of them, perhaps with a warning that
the list will be very long (Blackboard does something like this,
though as typical not in a user-friendly way, only 30 at a time).
One might also want to consider that some users of a Sage server might
NOT want to be listed under 'Share', so perhaps that could be
configurable. And the admin should be able to configure who is
allowed to choose that privacy option (i.e. not students in class
Y).
Basically I'll just request that Sage becomes a fully-featured social
networking software with a built-in math engine and be done with
it :) But I am serious about the "list all" feature being quite
useful in certain circumstances.
- kcrisman
kcrisman
> - better Laplace, Fourier, Zeta, any other transform management
> (especially in symbolic)
> - unit of measurement integration
> - extensible comparison between different implementations of all those
> features in the different packages (better to do the limit/integral/
> anything else with maxima, or with sympy, or with sympycore, or with
> pynac???)
> - NEW: labels in the notebook :) colors would be VERY nice as well!
colleagues that unless Sage (or Octave or any other OSS) had drivers
to connect to measurement hardware in his labs, he didn't see the
point of trying to use Sage, because vendors supply/sell drivers
hooking Matlab to the type of equipment he uses, and he wasn't about
to write a driver.
I don't really know whether this is true or not (that is, that it's
too annoying to get data into Sage directly from things) and I don't
even know exactly what sort of measurement device he was talking
about, but this seems very plausible, as well as something the current
developer network is not going to be able to solve any time soon.
Food for thought, at least, esp. since a large piece of the current
college calculus market is pre-engineers (see David Bressoud's recent
articles in the Notices and FOCUS, e.g.) and those are the future
users of Sage or any other similar program.
- kcrisman
Jason Grout
I have found it very useful too. How about a link to a javascript popup
window listing all the users? That way, it's there if you want, but it
won't need to be displayed or computed most of the time.
I also still think tab-completion would be nice :).
Jason
Florent Hivert
> Have you tried editing
>
> $HOME/.sage/ipython/ipythonrc
>
> ? It has numerous color options, which are off by default since it is
> not possible to tell if the user's terminal has a white or black
> background, and any choice of colors looks like crap if you guess
> wrong about the background color.
This coloring feature is very cool. I activated it right after reading your
e-mail... Until I launch emacs... Then I realize that emacs will not recognize
anything - and in particular the prompt - anymore. Is it possible to
deactivate to feature dynamically from sage itself, for example when we issue
the import sage_emacs as emacs ?
Cheers,
Florent
Nick Alexander
>> in using Sage for undergraduate maths and cryptography. The above
>> coloured output issue is one of his feature requests.
>
> Have you tried editing
>
> $HOME/.sage/ipython/ipythonrc
Or customizing the font-lock-mode of inferior-sage-mode? I don't care
for this at all, but if you know what you want and can describe it
with regular expressions it is easy.
Nick
Nick Alexander
I have partway done this in my tree, ie it will wait for a prompt,
detect colors, and issue a %colors NoColor command. Whenever I post a
new spkg it will be there, but it's not a priority.
But in general this is not the way to go: parsing ANSI and associated
color commands in emacs is supported but slow, according to a few
blogs I have read. Why not customize font-lock-mode declarations for
inferior-sage-mode? Much better.
Nick
Florent Hivert
> > This coloring feature is very cool. I activated it right after
> > reading your
> > e-mail... Until I launch emacs... Then I realize that emacs will not
> > recognize
> > anything - and in particular the prompt - anymore. Is it possible to
> > deactivate to feature dynamically from sage itself, for example when
> > we issue
> > the import sage_emacs as emacs ?
> I have partway done this in my tree, ie it will wait for a prompt,
> detect colors, and issue a %colors NoColor command. Whenever I post a
> new spkg it will be there, but it's not a priority.
Thanks for your quick answer. I didn't imagine that ipython/sage accept during
the session a "%colors NoColor" so that I didn't even try it. Otherwise I
would not have sent my email. This was just what I was asking. I'm deeply
sorry for my stupidity... I should think twice before sending an e-mail.
> But in general this is not the way to go: parsing ANSI and associated
> color commands in emacs is supported but slow, according to a few
> blogs I have read. Why not customize font-lock-mode declarations for
> inferior-sage-mode? Much better.
Sure. I've already done this.
Cheers,
Florent
Maurizio
you got the Bode plot I was talking about. Please, try to compare it
to our demo (we talked about that in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_frm/thread/221ebcb20940d8dc/94e1551399325c5c?lnk=gst&q=bode+plot#94e1551399325c5c):
The demo is at this notebook: http://www.sagenb.org/pub/285/
Even though this has just a minor percentage of the whole lot of
possibility there, I'm still quite happy about that, I really hope you
guys have a look at that.
I hope your patience stays always this high, as you can see, I'm not
giving up so easily ;)
Maurizio
Maurizio
I honestly think that SAGE's user target should be slightly different
from that one. I mean, picking data from hardware drivers is just a
matter of companies agreement and capability to crunches large
quantities of data.
In this software, on the contrary, I see a powerful symbolic calculus
capability, which is not that easy to find! I see a big number of
design engineers out there, whose interest is system modeling, system
design, system analysis, and I don't see any capability to accomplish
this without any powerful symbolic or analytical system (unless you
just prefer to do thousands of simulations...).
Moreover, it's very important to deal with interfacing the analysis
results to data arrays of reasonable size. In this way, the engineer
is enabled to verify and match the analysis versus some simulation or
experimental results, without necessarily needing to physically
connect the measurement hardware to the pc. Most of the time, a couple
of waveforms is more than enough!
I have been able to take some advantage of MAXIMA in the past, but the
reality is that SAGE has some added value in this field:
1) nice and powerful data and analysis representation (I LOVE the
notebook)
2) easy sharing within a network (I LOVE the notebook)
3) easy interfacing with additional external packages
4) easy interfacing to numerical packages (like numpy)
Do you see why I do like SAGE? And I do see a LOT of potential for the
engineering world!! But I think we need some effort to further develop
that... hopefully I'll push for that :)
Regards
Maurizio
Let me throw this stone, it's just something that pops into my mind
now: do you know what simulink is? That is a unique feature of MatLab
(actually it's a toolbox), which has been pathetically replicated by
somebody, but with no results in my opinion. To the best of my
knowledge, I actually see SAGE as a viable platform to possibly work
on something like that, even though we are MILES away to have the
chance to do that. Before, we should use this brick to build all the
necessary engineering walls, because we really need a comfortable
building first, to think about such an additional package...
My point is that we have a chance here, for something useful not only
to mathematician, but also to a whole world of people, long awaiting
for something to free them from the boring and expensive chain of
Matlab and Mathcad and Mathematica...
My 2 cents
On 20 Mar, 02:02, kcrisman <kcris...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So, up to now, my wishlist is:
> > - better Laplace, Fourier, Zeta, any other transform management
> > (especially in symbolic)
> > - unit of measurement integration
> > - extensible comparison between different implementations of all those
> > features in the different packages (better to do the limit/integral/
> > anything else with maxima, or with sympy, or with sympycore, or with
> > pynac???)
> > - NEW: labels in the notebook :) colors would be VERY nice as well!
>
> Just to add fuel to the fire, I was told point-blank by one of my
> colleagues that unless Sage (or Octave or any other OSS) haddrivers
Jason Grout
> Let me throw this stone, it's just something that pops into my mind
> now: do you know what simulink is? That is a unique feature of MatLab
> (actually it's a toolbox), which has been pathetically replicated by
> somebody, but with no results in my opinion. To the best of my
> knowledge, I actually see SAGE as a viable platform to possibly work
> on something like that, even though we are MILES away to have the
> chance to do that. Before, we should use this brick to build all the
> necessary engineering walls, because we really need a comfortable
> building first, to think about such an additional package...
> My point is that we have a chance here, for something useful not only
> to mathematician, but also to a whole world of people, long awaiting
> for something to free them from the boring and expensive chain of
> Matlab and Mathcad and Mathematica...
>
> My 2 cents
>
We've had some threads on Simulink (and the scilab version of simulink)
before. You're right; we don't have sufficient framework for it right
now. It's certainly come up before, and I'm sure it will again. I'm
not sure anyone has very much experience with it, though.
There have been some attempts at some similar functionality in python.
It would be interesting for someone that is familiar with simulink (and
the audience simulink addresses) to comment on what is available in
python or what is available, maybe in C, that could be wrapped by Sage.
You also might find it interesting to search the archives for Simulink.
Jason
Jaap Spies
PyLab_Works is a free and open source replacement for LabView + MatLab, written in pure Python. PyLab_Works is a visual design package, much easier to learn and
to extend than LabView. PyLab_Works also supports a MatLab-like environment for doing scientific and engineering calculations but with a much better general
programming environment (thanks to Python + Scipy) than MatLab. Even kids can use it!
See: http://code.google.com/p/pylab-works/
Jaap
Maurizio
Honestly, that wasn't really my main point. I just wanted to point out
that SAGE has the capabilities to become a powerful tool to be
actually used by engineers during their job, rather than being a very
beautiful toy.
So, in my opinion I would prefer to get those improvements I was
talking about in the previous posts
Regards
Maurizio
Maurizio
stuff like that.
On 20 Mar, 01:35, Maurizio <maurizio.gran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, up to now, my wishlist is:
> - better Laplace, Fourier, Zeta, any othertransformmanagement
> (especially in symbolic)
> - unit of measurement integration
> - extensible comparison between different implementations of all those
> features in the different packages (better to do the limit/integral/
> anything else with maxima, or with sympy, or with sympycore, or with
> pynac???)
> - NEW: labels in the notebook :) colors would be VERY nice as well!
>
DiracDelta function in SymPy:
http://code.google.com/p/sympy/issues/detail?id=672&can=1&q=diracdelta
I know there is a lot of development undergoing pynac right now, so I
would like Burcin et al. to deeply consider the implementation of this
function (and Heaviside() and others needed) to speed up and make
easier to deal with Fourier / Laplace (and any other) transform
(series).
Of course, I would really like to already have those functionalities
already available in SymPy (I really go for Ondrej's really physics
related approach to symbolics), but the basis are already there. I'm
also hoping that SAGE's symbolics is considering this as a MUST :)
This can be very useful now IMHO, even because integration is not yet
assessed, so there is still room for design related thinking.
Best regards
Maurizio
Ondrej Certik
I cced sage devel too.
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Maurizio <maurizio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On 31 Mar, 01:39, Ondrej Certik <ond...@certik.cz> wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Maurizio <maurizio.gran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I know some of you guys are related to SAGE development.
>>
>> > I think it was polite behavior to forward this post I made in SAGE
>> > group to your list as well.
>>
>> > Thank you very much for the great work!
>>
>> Thanks for forwarding it. I read the Sage list, but I missed this post. :)
>>
>> It's probably more Sage related --- with SymPy, we really want all the
>> features that you mentioned, but we want it in a way that is easily
>> extensible and hackable. Otherwise you can just use what is in maxima
>> for example.
>>
>
> what do you mean with this? I would really like to understand the
> differences underlying the current SAGE's symbolic approach with
> respect to yours. I think that for the moment I will stick with SymPy,
The main stress in Sage, as I understand it, is speed (and
robustness), e.g. the only reason for changing from Maxima is that it
is slow, otherwise it would be fine.
While in sympy it is really important for me to be able to hack on the
code and fix it. So I want it in python/cython.
The pynac based symbolics are pretty good though --- it builds quickly
and one can call any python classes from within C++. This is something
I was not aware of couple years ago, e.g. when I tried to wrap ginac,
I used swig, and that's not the way.
so pynac is fast and robust (ginac is pretty well tested after so many
years). However, if i wanted to do something more advanced, be it
integration, or limits, I would be stuck again with ginac, as it can't
do it. I looked at the series expansion and I would have to fix it
(improve it) a lot to be able to handle limits. So imho what is the
most usable from ginac is the bare symbolics, e.g. expanding stuff
like (x+y)**1000, (it can contain sin(x) etc) and imho this is what
will be used in Sage (at least I understood it that way half a year
ago), everything else will be done in Python/Cython (Burcin, William,
please correct me, if I am wrong).
So I think both approaches are doable (e.g. be it pynac, or speeding
up sympy using cython etc), it only depends how many people will get
excited about it and work really hard to make it happen.
> it being the only package with a reasonable support to transforms and
> staff like that. The problem with Maxima is that, apart for not having
> found any function related to this (maybe it's there in maxima/share,
> but I don't know whether it's well tested), I found rather complicated
> to interact with maxima from SAGE, when issues are not plain simple
> and straightforward (even "Assume()" is not always easy to use from
> SAGE, imho). Do you have suggestions?
I think so too it is too complicated if one wants to extend it. That's
why sage will switch to pynac soon.
>
>> In my experience, for the more complicated integrals like for fourier
>> transforms etc, it really helps if one has a good assumptions system
>> working. In fact, it's a must, so we are working on as much as we can.
>>
>> Ondrej
>
> Which is the difficulty level for this staff? I don't know how SymPy
> is currently developed, but what is the roadmap for this staff? I am
Our roadmap is here:
http://wiki.sympy.org/wiki/Plan_for_SymPy_1.0
> wondering if implementing a Fourier transform in Symbolics is just
> writing down the well known formula and hope for the integrating
> engine to perform the best :)
Yes, the integration engine needs to be able to do the integrals,
that's it. But in my experience you always want to tweak it a bit, fix
it so that it does the job for the physical problem that you want to
solve.
So if you have Maurizio some ideas how to make the Sage community and
SymPy community work more together, I am interested. I know that
William wrote pynac with the idea so that we can rebase sympy on top
of that, if it proves really superior to anything else. For that we
need to refactor our assumptions system first, which we are working
on. Ideally it could work on top of any core (e.g. sympycore as well),
that'd be really awesome.
Ondrej