Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
7 views
Skip to first unread message
Gopalakrishnan
Aug 27, 2011, 11:15:08 PM8/27/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
My take on the so called 'resolution' and Anna deciding to end his fast based on it. The following text is what I have posted it on my facebook wall as well.
Oh no, in the end, this Fast turned out to be a damp squib. Whose victory was this yesterday? Was it Anna Hazare's? Or was it People's? Or was it the Democracy? No, not any of the above. It was a comprehensive victory for the politicians of India once again.
Why I am saying this? Because, I don't know what the people of India got out of yesterday's resolution by both the houses of Parliament. But I can say that Anna didn't achieve anything what he set out to do when he started the Fast. If this 'resolution' or the terms in that resolution is what Anna wanted, he could have got that easily long before, without any kind of fasting or even agitation.
Imagine this:
- Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted his Jan Lokpal bill to be passed; Govt said NO.
- We all know that as of yesterday, the Jan Lokpal bill has not been passed, but Anna has called of his Fast.
-
Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted a definite timeline to the passage of the bill; Govt said NO.
- Yesterday's resolution does not talk about any timeline and nobody knows when the standing committee will send their revised draft to Parliament for their acceptance.
-
Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Parliament not to route the bill to standing committee but discuss and pass it in toto; Govt said NO.
- Yesterday's resolution said that all inputs (including the ones from NCPRI, Loksatta) will be going to standing committee.
-
Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include PM; Govt said NO.
- Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about PM being included in the Lokpal bill.
-
Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include the Judiciary; Govt said NO.
- Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about Judiciary being included in the Lokpal bill.
-
Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted to have Lower bureaucracy included; Govt said there should be a separate mechanism and this can't be under the Lokpal.
- Yesterday's resolution has put this rider saying that there has to be an alternate mecahnism.
So, in the end, what did Anna's Fast achieve? To me, Nothing. Some can argue that it has bought corruption in forefront. Well, corruption has always been forefront in our country - and that is why we are able to see it everyday. Nothing is going to get changed in the govt departments from tomorrow - we are still going to pay bribes to the RTO, Registration department, etc. The govt simply played on the people's emotions of Anna's health, dragging its feet in the name of discussions and then forced Anna's aides to accept a resolution that is as stupid and ridiculous as its version of Lokpal bill.
I feel that Anna has just fooled himself or by his aides and more importantly, he made all those who were with him at the Ramlila Maidan fools too. He didn't do any justice to the "actual" expectations of the people who were ready to do anything he said or will say. They (including me, though I was not at Ramlila Maidan) thought we would make these politicians do some concrete work on the Lokpal bill, if not on corruption. But that did not happen.
Anna may be smiling, we may be smiling but people like MMS, Pranab, Sibal, Chidambaram will all be having a blast and laughing rolling down the floor. If not today, it will dawn upon us either tomorrow or the day after, that Anna came, Anna saw and there he went empty handed.
Warm Regards,
N.T.GOPALAKRISHNAN
______________
"Egg forced open from outside kills a life; But an egg that opens itself from inside results in a new life - Be Yourself"
Omplas Chennai
Aug 28, 2011, 2:13:38 AM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Dear Gopalakrishnan Sir,
While acknowledging the fact that your mail has been nicely drafted, I feel that the contents are drawn in haste. The contents are very discouraging in nature and give a very sad feeling which should not emerge with any one.
The fact may be that, not 100% of Mr. Anna's initial objectives are conceded in the parliament yesterday. But,it is too early to
comment that they have lost them all. They can be achieved in the days to come.
In my opinion there were so many very good things achieved by Mr. Anna's fasting which would NOT have happened otherwise. Pl. read through......
1. A national level platform has been established by Mr. Anna and his team which brings a CONNECT to so many like-minded people to show their unity towards in rising against the biggest social evil called CORRUPTION. Was there anything like this before? All of us were merely crying in isolation and getting peeved by this evil and only
helplessly watching this spread across all levels and only becoming victims of it. But now, through this platform we have an opportunity to voice.
May be, more things can be brought to the attention of the people in future (as the team Anna always talk about more agenda, such as good and effective electoral system which will ensure only clean people going to parliament and so on).
2. Undoubtedly Mr. Anna has created a spark with everyone, especially the youngsters who are the FUTURE of India, against this social evil. I am sure many would have realised some moral strength to resist bribing to some extent rather than succumbing to
it.
3. I am sure everyone would agree with me that it is not going to be as simple as in the past for the corrupt politicians to make money. As Mr. Arun Jaitley said " Bar of accountability" is likely to be established.
4. It is very clearly established that the parliament, from now on, can not show a nonchalant attitude ALWAYS as it used to be. (for fasts, stirs and agitations started by individuals as in the past)
5. While watching the whole scenario (from the media, videos, news, etc.), we have understood who is good & who is bad. Who is talking sense and who is not. Could there be a better opportunity about learning about our ministers or our political parties before?
6. The fact that Mr. Anna has brought lakhs of people together brings us so much optimism in us that there is a light coming up. We just can not rule out more people coming out with good ideals in the days to come.We surely get a feeling that the reformation process has begun.
Sir,
A true leader is the one who finds a win-win solution to self, team and the connected parties. While the goals or ideals can be utopian the process of achieving them (Or going anywhere near them!) can only be through consensus. This is not a easy one in a country like India (anywhere for that matter!). It means gives and takes necessarily within the ambit of negotiation. What to give and what to take is purely a matter of judgement, given the ground realities.
So if ideals are not achieved (as the result of consensus) it does not mean that having such ideals is stupid or foolish.
For example, in a family buying a new house is may be an objective or a choice for all the family members. But, the members of the family may differ in the choice of location, size of the house, comfort levels, facilities, methods of loan, etc. Ultimately a consensus is arrived (with so much of difficulties!!) from the given affordability and other conditions among the members. The decision is accepted happily with some compromises. Only then they enjoy living in there. From this, we can not say that the objective of buying an ideal house has not been achieved because of compromises and hence the whole objective is a foolish one.
If getting a consensus is so much difficult in a small family, can it happen in a day at national level (with so much of democratic
freedom to everyone and accommodating everyone)?.
Surely, everyone will accept with me that there are many milestones to be crossed in reaching the destination. Anna and his team has crossed the first milestone. We must remember that the journey has just begun (I don't think FIGHT for corruption was in forefront before as you have mentioned in your mail. We were only watching corruption everywhere as victims) Mr. Anna himself has told that it is a partial victory.
We must unconditionally support their journey and render our help in every possible way rather than criticizing that Anna has become foolish and made every one foolish. Let us
not disseminate negative energy by telling everyone nothing has been achieved from Anna's fast and the politicians are going the celebrate this with laughing rolling down the floor.
With best regards,
Baloo
From: Gopalakrishnan <ntgopala...@gmail.com>
To: sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011 8:45 AM
Subject: [sadgoshthi] Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
--
http://yogicselfmastery.blogspot.com/
You received this message because you are subscribed
to the "Sadgoshthi" Google Group.
This is a Group created for the purpose of
free sharing of matters of quality social cultural,
religious, spiritual interest, among the members.
To post to this group, send email
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sadgoshthi+...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.co.in/group/sadgoshthi?hl=en-GB
http://yogicselfmastery.blogspot.com/
You received this message because you are subscribed
to the "Sadgoshthi" Google Group.
This is a Group created for the purpose of
free sharing of matters of quality social cultural,
religious, spiritual interest, among the members.
To post to this group, send email
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sadgoshthi+...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.co.in/group/sadgoshthi?hl=en-GB
Gopalakrishnan
Aug 28, 2011, 2:45:37 AM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Dear Sir,
I understand your mail. Whatever you have said will utmost will cause a regime change and not more than that. The current agitation would have bought more people against Congress, so probably they are not going to win upcoming state elections in Delhi and UP; and if this anti-corruption thing can hold fort for another 2.5 years, it may result in Congress not coming to power at Centre too.
But my point is that the way this current agitation has ended, it has not done anything to change the system - the purpose which Anna himself said he wanted to achieve. I am not talking about the system of mental change by each of us, where we refuse to pay bribe. But I am talking about the system which would have resulted in more checks and balances of people in power (or in authority) when they take bribes. That system would not have abolished corruption, but at least it would have made those people think twice about "rightfully" asking for bribe.
As per your mail, you are saying that Anna has bought the issue of corruption to the forefront and that is precisely what I had mentioned in my earlier email. I am from TN and didnt the people of TN knew about DMK's corruption? Was it not in our minds? All we did was to just change the regime by bringing AIADMK to power. In the current system, I can only punish somebody by deciding not to elect him again, but I can prevent the other person to do the same thing for the next 5 years.
Warm Regards,
N.T.GOPALAKRISHNAN
______________
"Egg forced open from outside kills a life; But an egg that opens itself from inside results in a new life - Be Yourself"
praveen
Aug 28, 2011, 8:52:29 AM8/28/11
to Sadgoshthi
Mr Gopalkrishnan,
I keep hearing the same cynical views as yours among the many Indians.
Let us be pragmatic to visualize what this movement has brought forth.
1)As Justice Hegde said in his speech,it is a stepping stone towards
the
bigger agenda of fight against corruption.If Anna's team had not
pushed
the movement to livewire,nothing would have happened.If it had taken
42 years
for the bill so for,in next 42 years also there would have been no
progress believe me.
2)The voice of middle class
Till so for,nobody had witnessed the growing middle class and what
they can do to the country
whether it was TV debates or public debates,we were used to see
monotonous high class
so called intellectuals who beamed the same ideas time and again and
nothing came forward
from those talks.Here in the movement,for the first time,the middle
class had an opportunity to
come out in open and express what they want.Team anna gave that
opportunity
3)Discipline in parliamentary debate
If you had watched the proceedings yesterday,I am sure you would have
been careful in
dubbing the effect.For the first time in the history of India,you
could see politiicans talking
with concern(whether they mean or not is different aspect).
In essence,I saw lot of positives from this movement and there is now
a light at the end of the tunnel
to look forward than the stereotyped cynical views of many''it will
never happen in India''.
Watch out the space,more might come in the years to come.A resurgant
India will happen
even according to puranic forecasts
> *"Egg forced open from outside kills a life; But an egg that opens itself
> from inside results in a new life - Be Yourself"*
> > *May be, more things can be brought to the attention of the people in
> > *
> > *
> > * 2. Undoubtedly Mr. Anna has created a spark with everyone, especially
> > *
> > *
> > * 3. I am sure everyone would agree with me that it is not going to be as
> > *
> > *
> > * 4. It is very clearly established that the parliament, from now on, can
> > *
> > *
> > * 5. While watching the whole scenario (from the media, videos, news,
> > *
> > *
> > * 6. The fact that Mr. Anna has brought lakhs of people together brings us
> > *We must unconditionally support their journey and render our help in
> > *
> > *
> > *With best regards,*
> > *Baloo*
>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Gopalakrishnan <ntgopalakrish...@gmail.com>
> > *To:* sadgo...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Sunday, 28 August 2011 8:45 AM
> > *Subject:* [sadgoshthi] Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted his Jan Lokpal bill to be
> > passed; Govt said NO.
> > - We all know that as of yesterday, the Jan Lokpal bill has not been
> > Govt said NO.
> > - Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about PM being included
> > in the Lokpal bill.
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include the
> > Judiciary; Govt said NO.
> > - Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about Judiciary being
>
> read more »
I keep hearing the same cynical views as yours among the many Indians.
Let us be pragmatic to visualize what this movement has brought forth.
1)As Justice Hegde said in his speech,it is a stepping stone towards
the
bigger agenda of fight against corruption.If Anna's team had not
pushed
the movement to livewire,nothing would have happened.If it had taken
42 years
for the bill so for,in next 42 years also there would have been no
progress believe me.
2)The voice of middle class
Till so for,nobody had witnessed the growing middle class and what
they can do to the country
whether it was TV debates or public debates,we were used to see
monotonous high class
so called intellectuals who beamed the same ideas time and again and
nothing came forward
from those talks.Here in the movement,for the first time,the middle
class had an opportunity to
come out in open and express what they want.Team anna gave that
opportunity
3)Discipline in parliamentary debate
If you had watched the proceedings yesterday,I am sure you would have
been careful in
dubbing the effect.For the first time in the history of India,you
could see politiicans talking
with concern(whether they mean or not is different aspect).
In essence,I saw lot of positives from this movement and there is now
a light at the end of the tunnel
to look forward than the stereotyped cynical views of many''it will
never happen in India''.
Watch out the space,more might come in the years to come.A resurgant
India will happen
even according to puranic forecasts
> from inside results in a new life - Be Yourself"*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Omplas Chennai <omp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dear Gopalakrishnan Sir,
>
> > While acknowledging the fact that your mail has been nicely drafted, I feel
> > that the contents are drawn in haste. The contents are very discouraging in
> > nature and give a very sad feeling which should not emerge with any one.
>
> > The fact may be that, not 100% of Mr. Anna's initial objectives are
> > conceded in the parliament yesterday. But,it is too early to comment that
> > they have lost them all. They can be achieved in the days to come.
>
> > In my opinion there were so many very good things achieved by Mr. Anna's
> > fasting which would NOT have happened otherwise. Pl. read through......
>
> > * 1. A national level platform has been established by Mr. Anna and his
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Omplas Chennai <omp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dear Gopalakrishnan Sir,
>
> > While acknowledging the fact that your mail has been nicely drafted, I feel
> > that the contents are drawn in haste. The contents are very discouraging in
> > nature and give a very sad feeling which should not emerge with any one.
>
> > The fact may be that, not 100% of Mr. Anna's initial objectives are
> > conceded in the parliament yesterday. But,it is too early to comment that
> > they have lost them all. They can be achieved in the days to come.
>
> > In my opinion there were so many very good things achieved by Mr. Anna's
> > fasting which would NOT have happened otherwise. Pl. read through......
>
> > team which brings a CONNECT to so many like-minded people to show their
> > unity towards in rising against the biggest social evil called CORRUPTION.
> > Was there anything like this before? All of us were merely crying in
> > isolation and getting peeved by this evil and only helplessly watching this
> > spread across all levels and only becoming victims of it. But now, through
> > this platform we have an opportunity to voice.*
> > unity towards in rising against the biggest social evil called CORRUPTION.
> > Was there anything like this before? All of us were merely crying in
> > isolation and getting peeved by this evil and only helplessly watching this
> > spread across all levels and only becoming victims of it. But now, through
> > *May be, more things can be brought to the attention of the people in
> > future (as the team Anna always talk about more agenda, such as good and
> > effective electoral system which will ensure only clean people going to
> > parliament and so on).*
> > effective electoral system which will ensure only clean people going to
> > *
> > *
> > * 2. Undoubtedly Mr. Anna has created a spark with everyone, especially
> > the youngsters who are the FUTURE of India, against this social evil. I am
> > sure many would have realised some moral strength to resist bribing to some
> > extent rather than succumbing to it.*
> > sure many would have realised some moral strength to resist bribing to some
> > *
> > *
> > * 3. I am sure everyone would agree with me that it is not going to be as
> > simple as in the past for the corrupt politicians to make money. As Mr. Arun
> > Jaitley said " Bar of accountability" is likely to be established.*
> > *
> > *
> > * 4. It is very clearly established that the parliament, from now on, can
> > not show a nonchalant attitude ALWAYS as it used to be. (for fasts, stirs
> > and agitations started by individuals as in the past)*
> > *
> > *
> > * 5. While watching the whole scenario (from the media, videos, news,
> > etc.), we have understood who is good & who is bad. Who is talking sense
> > and who is not. Could there be a better opportunity about learning about our
> > ministers or our political parties before? *
> > and who is not. Could there be a better opportunity about learning about our
> > *
> > *
> > * 6. The fact that Mr. Anna has brought lakhs of people together brings us
> > so much optimism in us that there is a light coming up. We just can not rule
> > out more people coming out with good ideals in the days to come.We surely
> > get a feeling that the reformation process has begun.*
> > out more people coming out with good ideals in the days to come.We surely
> > every possible way rather than criticizing that Anna has become foolish and
> > made every one foolish. Let us not disseminate negative energy by telling
> > everyone nothing has been achieved from Anna's fast and the politicians are
> > going the celebrate this with laughing rolling down the floor. *
> > made every one foolish. Let us not disseminate negative energy by telling
> > everyone nothing has been achieved from Anna's fast and the politicians are
> > *
> > *
> > *With best regards,*
> > *Baloo*
>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Gopalakrishnan <ntgopalakrish...@gmail.com>
> > *To:* sadgo...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Sunday, 28 August 2011 8:45 AM
> > *Subject:* [sadgoshthi] Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
>
> > My take on the so called 'resolution' and Anna deciding to end his fast
> > based on it. The following text is what I have posted it on my facebook wall
> > as well.
>
> > Oh no, in the end, this Fast turned out to be a damp squib. Whose victory
> > was this yesterday? Was it Anna Hazare's? Or was it People's? Or was it the
> > Democracy? No, not any of the above. It was a comprehensive victory for the
> > politicians of India once again.
>
> > Why I am saying this? Because, I don't know what the people of India got
> > out of yesterday's resolution by both the houses of Parliament. But I can
> > say that Anna didn't achieve anything what he set out to do when he started
> > the Fast. If this 'resolution' or the terms in that resolution is what Anna
> > wanted, he could have got that easily long before, without any kind of
> > fasting or even agitation.
>
> > *Imagine this:*
> > My take on the so called 'resolution' and Anna deciding to end his fast
> > based on it. The following text is what I have posted it on my facebook wall
> > as well.
>
> > Oh no, in the end, this Fast turned out to be a damp squib. Whose victory
> > was this yesterday? Was it Anna Hazare's? Or was it People's? Or was it the
> > Democracy? No, not any of the above. It was a comprehensive victory for the
> > politicians of India once again.
>
> > Why I am saying this? Because, I don't know what the people of India got
> > out of yesterday's resolution by both the houses of Parliament. But I can
> > say that Anna didn't achieve anything what he set out to do when he started
> > the Fast. If this 'resolution' or the terms in that resolution is what Anna
> > wanted, he could have got that easily long before, without any kind of
> > fasting or even agitation.
>
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted his Jan Lokpal bill to be
> > passed; Govt said NO.
> > - We all know that as of yesterday, the Jan Lokpal bill has not been
> > passed, but Anna has called of his Fast.
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted a definite timeline to the
>
> > passage of the bill; Govt said NO.
> > - Yesterday's resolution does not talk about any timeline and nobody
> > knows when the standing committee will send their revised draft to
> > Parliament for their acceptance.
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Parliament not to route the
> > Parliament for their acceptance.
>
> > bill to standing committee but discuss and pass it in toto; Govt said NO.
> > - Yesterday's resolution said that all inputs (including the ones from
> > NCPRI, Loksatta) will be going to standing committee.
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include PM;
>
> > Govt said NO.
> > - Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about PM being included
> > in the Lokpal bill.
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include the
> > Judiciary; Govt said NO.
> > - Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about Judiciary being
> > included in the Lokpal bill.
>
> > - Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted to have Lower bureaucracy
>
> > included; Govt said there should be a separate mechanism and this can't be
> > under the Lokpal.
> > - Yesterday's resolution has put this rider saying that there has to be
> > under the Lokpal.
> > an alternate mecahnism.
>
> > So, in the end, what did Anna's Fast achieve? To me, Nothing. Some can
> > argue that it has bought corruption in forefront. Well, corruption has
> > always been forefront in our country - and that is why we are able to see it
> > everyday. Nothing is going to get changed in the govt departments from
> > tomorrow - we are still going to pay bribes to the RTO, Registration
> > department, etc. The govt simply played on the people's emotions of Anna's
> > health, dragging its feet in the name of discussions and then forced Anna's
> > aides to accept a resolution that is as stupid and ridiculous as its version
> > of Lokpal bill.
>
> > I feel that Anna has just fooled himself or by his
>
> ...
>
> > So, in the end, what did Anna's Fast achieve? To me, Nothing. Some can
> > argue that it has bought corruption in forefront. Well, corruption has
> > always been forefront in our country - and that is why we are able to see it
> > everyday. Nothing is going to get changed in the govt departments from
> > tomorrow - we are still going to pay bribes to the RTO, Registration
> > department, etc. The govt simply played on the people's emotions of Anna's
> > health, dragging its feet in the name of discussions and then forced Anna's
> > aides to accept a resolution that is as stupid and ridiculous as its version
> > of Lokpal bill.
>
> > I feel that Anna has just fooled himself or by his
>
>
> read more »
Guruprasad K N
Aug 28, 2011, 8:56:56 AM8/28/11
to Sadgoshthi
Dear Gopalakrishnan Sir,
I too felt the same way as you felt when I read the newspapers first
thing in the morning. When I thought deeply about it, I think it was
after all not that bad mainly because Anna's Jan Lokpal Bill has
certain impractical stuff in it. It has been drafted with idealism in
mind and not about how it can be executed. The main things Anna
achieved are:
1. Promoted an awakening amongst Indians about ill effects of
corruption. We had a chalta-hai attitude about it and were more than
willing to tolerate it. I for one, paid bribes even though I felt bad
about it and almost always was kicking myself after doing so at my
helplessness. I read in newspaper etc that even those folks who took
bribes as well as traders who did not pay taxes, etc supported him and
really felt bad about their past actions and want to correct
themselves. Even if 1% of them do so, it is a great win
2. Anna more than got what he wanted. Everything in India is like
vegetable-shopping. Bargaining is a done thing. Anna started at Rs.100
and came down to Rs.50 which was reasonable. He forced Sibals and
Chidus to eat humble pie in public, these 2 were displaying arrogance
of the worst kind, forced Manmohan to send pragmatic and practical
Pranab and others to talk to Anna and co, and get a political solution
rather than talk like lawyers whose main interest in in prolonging the
case for their petty needs rather than help their pliants. Anna and
his people realized the short comings of their own draft and conceded
to it
3. Getting the Parliament to acknowledge his demands and debate and
work out something is itself a significant achievement. Moreover,
options of "restarting this movement" is still open if Parliament
[read crooked politicos] find a way to subvert this movement.
4. Aruna Roy and others started the RTI movement long back and today
we have an RTI act. It was not as powerful as what Aruna wanted, but
see the effects of RTI Act today. Yeddyurappa's govt fell because of
it [all his black ways were obtained and exposed through RTIs], there
is a 10% improvement in transparency and 2g/3g scams came about
because it was effectively used by Dr. Swamy. He used the same to get
more info on Sonia and her family too to bring out inconvenient facts.
This too is likely to go the same way.
By definition all politicians are crooks [BJP is no different, its
state Govt did not appoint Lokayukta for 7 full years!!] and will do
anything to cover their acts. This satyagraha has forced them to think
and do something they would have avoided for their lives. Lastly we
dont want Anna to be a one point agenda man. We have now realized he
can have an electrifying effect on the people and we [Kejriwal, Bedi,
etc] should "use" [wrong term but right intention] him for bringing in
other political reforms. The man fasting and damaging his health is no
good for us, we need him atleast till next Lok Sabha elections as I
feel that is the threshold of cleansing the system. He has put the
Cong Govt on the mat, and he can get few more things done for us. I
sound like one who wants to exploit Anna brand, but I dont necessarily
feel bad about it. We are a nation who will demand Bharat Ratna for a
Sachin Tendulkar but will never demand a Bharat Ratna for Anna
Hazare!!
Thanks
Guru
On Aug 28, 11:13 am, Omplas Chennai <omp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Gopalakrishnan Sir,
>
> While acknowledging the fact that your mail has been nicely drafted, I feel that the contents are drawn in haste. The contents are very discouraging in nature and give a very sad feeling which should not emerge with any one.
>
> The fact may be that, not 100% of Mr. Anna's initial objectives are conceded in the parliament yesterday. But,it is too early to comment that they have lost them all. They can be achieved in the days to come.
>
> In my opinion there were so many very good things achieved by Mr. Anna's fasting which would NOT have happened otherwise. Pl. read through......
>
> 1. A national level platform has been established by Mr. Anna and his team which brings a CONNECT to so many like-minded people to show their unity towards in rising against the biggest social evil called CORRUPTION. Was there anything like this before? All of us were merely crying in isolation and getting peeved by this evil and only helplessly watching this spread across all levels and only becoming victims of it. But now, through this platform we have an opportunity to voice.
> May be, more things can be brought to the attention of the people in future (as the team Anna always talk about more agenda, such as good and effective electoral system which will ensure only clean people going to parliament and so on).
>
> 2. Undoubtedly Mr. Anna has created a spark with everyone, especially the youngsters who are the FUTURE of India, against this social evil. I am sure many would have realised some moral strength to resist bribing to some extent rather than succumbing to it.
>
> 3. I am sure everyone would agree with me that it is not going to be as simple as in the past for the corrupt politicians to make money. As Mr. Arun Jaitley said " Bar of accountability" is likely to be established.
>
> 4. It is very clearly established that the parliament, from now on, can not show a nonchalant attitude ALWAYS as it used to be. (for fasts, stirs and agitations started by individuals as in the past)
>
> 5. While watching the whole scenario (from the media, videos, news, etc.), we have understood who is good & who is bad. Who is talking sense and who is not. Could there be a better opportunity about learning about our ministers or our political parties before?
>
> 6. The fact that Mr. Anna has brought lakhs of people together brings us so much optimism in us that there is a light coming up. We just can not rule out more people coming out with good ideals in the days to come.We surely get a feeling that the reformation process has begun.
>
> Sir,
>
> A true leader is the one who finds a win-win solution to self, team and the connected parties. While the goals or ideals can be utopian the process of achieving them (Or going anywhere near them!) can only be through consensus. This is not a easy one in a country like India (anywhere for that matter!). It means gives and takes necessarily within the ambit of negotiation. What to give and what to take is purely a matter of judgement, given the ground realities.
>
> So if ideals are not achieved (as the result of consensus) it does not mean that having such ideals is stupid or foolish.
>
> For example, in a family buying a new house is may be an objective or a choice for all the family members. But, the members of the family may differ in the choice of location, size of the house, comfort levels, facilities, methods of loan, etc. Ultimately a consensus is arrived (with so much of difficulties!!) from the given affordability and other conditions among the members. The decision is accepted happily with some compromises. Only then they enjoy living in there. From this, we can not say that the objective of buying an ideal house has not been achieved because of compromises and hence the whole objective is a foolish one.
>
> If getting a consensus is so much difficult in a small family, can it happen in a day at national level (with so much of democratic freedom to everyone and accommodating everyone)?.
>
> Surely, everyone will accept with me that there are many milestones to be crossed in reaching the destination. Anna and his team has crossed the first milestone. We must remember that the journey has just begun (I don't think FIGHT for corruption was in forefront before as you have mentioned in your mail. We were only watching corruption everywhere as victims) Mr. Anna himself has told that it is a partial victory.
>
> We must unconditionally support their journey and render our help in every possible way rather than criticizing that Anna has become foolish and made every one foolish. Let us not disseminate negative energy by telling everyone nothing has been achieved from Anna's fast and the politicians are going the celebrate this with laughing rolling down the floor.
>
> With best regards,
> Baloo
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gopalakrishnan <ntgopalakrish...@gmail.com>
>
> * We all know that as of yesterday, the Jan Lokpal bill has not been passed, but Anna has called of his Fast.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted a definite timeline to the passage of the bill; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution does not talk about any timeline and nobody knows when the standing committee will send their revised draft to Parliament for their acceptance.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Parliament not to route the bill to standing committee but discuss and pass it in toto; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution said that all inputs (including the ones from NCPRI, Loksatta) will be going to standing committee.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include PM; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about PM being included in the Lokpal bill.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include the Judiciary; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about Judiciary being included in the Lokpal bill.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted to have Lower bureaucracy included; Govt said there should be a separate mechanism and this can't be under the Lokpal.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution has put this rider saying that there has to be an alternate mecahnism.
I too felt the same way as you felt when I read the newspapers first
thing in the morning. When I thought deeply about it, I think it was
after all not that bad mainly because Anna's Jan Lokpal Bill has
certain impractical stuff in it. It has been drafted with idealism in
mind and not about how it can be executed. The main things Anna
achieved are:
1. Promoted an awakening amongst Indians about ill effects of
corruption. We had a chalta-hai attitude about it and were more than
willing to tolerate it. I for one, paid bribes even though I felt bad
about it and almost always was kicking myself after doing so at my
helplessness. I read in newspaper etc that even those folks who took
bribes as well as traders who did not pay taxes, etc supported him and
really felt bad about their past actions and want to correct
themselves. Even if 1% of them do so, it is a great win
2. Anna more than got what he wanted. Everything in India is like
vegetable-shopping. Bargaining is a done thing. Anna started at Rs.100
and came down to Rs.50 which was reasonable. He forced Sibals and
Chidus to eat humble pie in public, these 2 were displaying arrogance
of the worst kind, forced Manmohan to send pragmatic and practical
Pranab and others to talk to Anna and co, and get a political solution
rather than talk like lawyers whose main interest in in prolonging the
case for their petty needs rather than help their pliants. Anna and
his people realized the short comings of their own draft and conceded
to it
3. Getting the Parliament to acknowledge his demands and debate and
work out something is itself a significant achievement. Moreover,
options of "restarting this movement" is still open if Parliament
[read crooked politicos] find a way to subvert this movement.
4. Aruna Roy and others started the RTI movement long back and today
we have an RTI act. It was not as powerful as what Aruna wanted, but
see the effects of RTI Act today. Yeddyurappa's govt fell because of
it [all his black ways were obtained and exposed through RTIs], there
is a 10% improvement in transparency and 2g/3g scams came about
because it was effectively used by Dr. Swamy. He used the same to get
more info on Sonia and her family too to bring out inconvenient facts.
This too is likely to go the same way.
By definition all politicians are crooks [BJP is no different, its
state Govt did not appoint Lokayukta for 7 full years!!] and will do
anything to cover their acts. This satyagraha has forced them to think
and do something they would have avoided for their lives. Lastly we
dont want Anna to be a one point agenda man. We have now realized he
can have an electrifying effect on the people and we [Kejriwal, Bedi,
etc] should "use" [wrong term but right intention] him for bringing in
other political reforms. The man fasting and damaging his health is no
good for us, we need him atleast till next Lok Sabha elections as I
feel that is the threshold of cleansing the system. He has put the
Cong Govt on the mat, and he can get few more things done for us. I
sound like one who wants to exploit Anna brand, but I dont necessarily
feel bad about it. We are a nation who will demand Bharat Ratna for a
Sachin Tendulkar but will never demand a Bharat Ratna for Anna
Hazare!!
Thanks
Guru
On Aug 28, 11:13 am, Omplas Chennai <omp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Gopalakrishnan Sir,
>
> While acknowledging the fact that your mail has been nicely drafted, I feel that the contents are drawn in haste. The contents are very discouraging in nature and give a very sad feeling which should not emerge with any one.
>
> The fact may be that, not 100% of Mr. Anna's initial objectives are conceded in the parliament yesterday. But,it is too early to comment that they have lost them all. They can be achieved in the days to come.
>
> In my opinion there were so many very good things achieved by Mr. Anna's fasting which would NOT have happened otherwise. Pl. read through......
>
> 1. A national level platform has been established by Mr. Anna and his team which brings a CONNECT to so many like-minded people to show their unity towards in rising against the biggest social evil called CORRUPTION. Was there anything like this before? All of us were merely crying in isolation and getting peeved by this evil and only helplessly watching this spread across all levels and only becoming victims of it. But now, through this platform we have an opportunity to voice.
> May be, more things can be brought to the attention of the people in future (as the team Anna always talk about more agenda, such as good and effective electoral system which will ensure only clean people going to parliament and so on).
>
> 2. Undoubtedly Mr. Anna has created a spark with everyone, especially the youngsters who are the FUTURE of India, against this social evil. I am sure many would have realised some moral strength to resist bribing to some extent rather than succumbing to it.
>
> 3. I am sure everyone would agree with me that it is not going to be as simple as in the past for the corrupt politicians to make money. As Mr. Arun Jaitley said " Bar of accountability" is likely to be established.
>
> 4. It is very clearly established that the parliament, from now on, can not show a nonchalant attitude ALWAYS as it used to be. (for fasts, stirs and agitations started by individuals as in the past)
>
> 5. While watching the whole scenario (from the media, videos, news, etc.), we have understood who is good & who is bad. Who is talking sense and who is not. Could there be a better opportunity about learning about our ministers or our political parties before?
>
> 6. The fact that Mr. Anna has brought lakhs of people together brings us so much optimism in us that there is a light coming up. We just can not rule out more people coming out with good ideals in the days to come.We surely get a feeling that the reformation process has begun.
>
> Sir,
>
> A true leader is the one who finds a win-win solution to self, team and the connected parties. While the goals or ideals can be utopian the process of achieving them (Or going anywhere near them!) can only be through consensus. This is not a easy one in a country like India (anywhere for that matter!). It means gives and takes necessarily within the ambit of negotiation. What to give and what to take is purely a matter of judgement, given the ground realities.
>
> So if ideals are not achieved (as the result of consensus) it does not mean that having such ideals is stupid or foolish.
>
> For example, in a family buying a new house is may be an objective or a choice for all the family members. But, the members of the family may differ in the choice of location, size of the house, comfort levels, facilities, methods of loan, etc. Ultimately a consensus is arrived (with so much of difficulties!!) from the given affordability and other conditions among the members. The decision is accepted happily with some compromises. Only then they enjoy living in there. From this, we can not say that the objective of buying an ideal house has not been achieved because of compromises and hence the whole objective is a foolish one.
>
> If getting a consensus is so much difficult in a small family, can it happen in a day at national level (with so much of democratic freedom to everyone and accommodating everyone)?.
>
> Surely, everyone will accept with me that there are many milestones to be crossed in reaching the destination. Anna and his team has crossed the first milestone. We must remember that the journey has just begun (I don't think FIGHT for corruption was in forefront before as you have mentioned in your mail. We were only watching corruption everywhere as victims) Mr. Anna himself has told that it is a partial victory.
>
> We must unconditionally support their journey and render our help in every possible way rather than criticizing that Anna has become foolish and made every one foolish. Let us not disseminate negative energy by telling everyone nothing has been achieved from Anna's fast and the politicians are going the celebrate this with laughing rolling down the floor.
>
> With best regards,
> Baloo
>
> ________________________________
> To: sadgo...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011 8:45 AM
> Subject: [sadgoshthi] Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
>
> My take on the so called 'resolution' and Anna deciding to end his fast based on it. The following text is what I have posted it on my facebook wall as well.
>
>
> Oh no, in the end, this Fast turned out to be a damp squib. Whose victory was this yesterday? Was it Anna Hazare's? Or was it People's? Or was it the Democracy? No, not any of the above. It was a comprehensive victory for the politicians of India once again.
>
> Why I am saying this? Because, I don't know what the people of India got out of yesterday's resolution by both the houses of Parliament. But I can say that Anna didn't achieve anything what he set out to do when he started the Fast. If this 'resolution' or the terms in that resolution is what Anna wanted, he could have got that easily long before, without any kind of fasting or even agitation.
>
> Imagine this:
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted his Jan Lokpal bill to be passed; Govt said NO.
> Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011 8:45 AM
> Subject: [sadgoshthi] Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
>
> My take on the so called 'resolution' and Anna deciding to end his fast based on it. The following text is what I have posted it on my facebook wall as well.
>
>
> Oh no, in the end, this Fast turned out to be a damp squib. Whose victory was this yesterday? Was it Anna Hazare's? Or was it People's? Or was it the Democracy? No, not any of the above. It was a comprehensive victory for the politicians of India once again.
>
> Why I am saying this? Because, I don't know what the people of India got out of yesterday's resolution by both the houses of Parliament. But I can say that Anna didn't achieve anything what he set out to do when he started the Fast. If this 'resolution' or the terms in that resolution is what Anna wanted, he could have got that easily long before, without any kind of fasting or even agitation.
>
> Imagine this:
>
>
> * We all know that as of yesterday, the Jan Lokpal bill has not been passed, but Anna has called of his Fast.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted a definite timeline to the passage of the bill; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution does not talk about any timeline and nobody knows when the standing committee will send their revised draft to Parliament for their acceptance.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Parliament not to route the bill to standing committee but discuss and pass it in toto; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution said that all inputs (including the ones from NCPRI, Loksatta) will be going to standing committee.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include PM; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about PM being included in the Lokpal bill.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted the Lokpal bill to include the Judiciary; Govt said NO.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution is completely silent about Judiciary being included in the Lokpal bill.
>
> * Before starting the Fast, Anna wanted to have Lower bureaucracy included; Govt said there should be a separate mechanism and this can't be under the Lokpal.
>
> * Yesterday's resolution has put this rider saying that there has to be an alternate mecahnism.
>
> So, in the end, what did Anna's Fast achieve? To me, Nothing. Some can argue that it has bought corruption in forefront. Well, corruption has always been forefront in our country - and that is why we are able to see it everyday. Nothing is going to get changed in the govt departments from tomorrow - we are still going to pay bribes to the RTO, Registration department, etc. The govt simply played on the people's emotions of Anna's health, dragging its feet in the name of discussions and then forced Anna's aides to accept a resolution that is as stupid and ridiculous as its version of Lokpal bill.
>
> I feel that Anna has just fooled himself or by his aides and more importantly, he made all those who were with him at the Ramlila Maidan fools too. He didn't do any justice to the "actual" expectations of the people who were ready to do anything he said or will say. They (including me, though I was not at Ramlila Maidan) thought we would make these politicians do some concrete work on the Lokpal bill, if not on corruption. But that did not happen.
>
> Anna may be smiling, we may be smiling but people like MMS, Pranab, Sibal, Chidambaram will all be having a blast and laughing rolling down the floor. If not today, it will dawn upon us either tomorrow or the day after, that Anna came, Anna saw and there he went empty handed.
>
> Warm Regards,
> N.T.GOPALAKRISHNAN
> ______________
>
> "Egg forced open from outside kills a life; But an egg that opens itself from inside results in a new life - Be Yourself"
>
> --http://yogicselfmastery.blogspot.com/
> So, in the end, what did Anna's Fast achieve? To me, Nothing. Some can argue that it has bought corruption in forefront. Well, corruption has always been forefront in our country - and that is why we are able to see it everyday. Nothing is going to get changed in the govt departments from tomorrow - we are still going to pay bribes to the RTO, Registration department, etc. The govt simply played on the people's emotions of Anna's health, dragging its feet in the name of discussions and then forced Anna's aides to accept a resolution that is as stupid and ridiculous as its version of Lokpal bill.
>
> I feel that Anna has just fooled himself or by his aides and more importantly, he made all those who were with him at the Ramlila Maidan fools too. He didn't do any justice to the "actual" expectations of the people who were ready to do anything he said or will say. They (including me, though I was not at Ramlila Maidan) thought we would make these politicians do some concrete work on the Lokpal bill, if not on corruption. But that did not happen.
>
> Anna may be smiling, we may be smiling but people like MMS, Pranab, Sibal, Chidambaram will all be having a blast and laughing rolling down the floor. If not today, it will dawn upon us either tomorrow or the day after, that Anna came, Anna saw and there he went empty handed.
>
> Warm Regards,
> N.T.GOPALAKRISHNAN
> ______________
>
> "Egg forced open from outside kills a life; But an egg that opens itself from inside results in a new life - Be Yourself"
>
Srinivasan MS
Aug 28, 2011, 10:29:00 AM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
"karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadachana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango ’stv akarmani"
ma te sango ’stv akarmani"
(Bhagwat Gita: Chapter Two verse 47)
"Sri Krishna said: You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing
your duty."
Respected NTG
I have been following the thread from you as well as of mr baloo.and others.
As a arm chair critic or the movement having raised so much hope that you will not accept any thing else but enacting and passing the bill of anti corruption. Your expectation was as if anna is a alladins lamp and he will do wonders overnight.
As an ex. nonpolitical trade union leader of a govt organisation I know the mentality of govt. and how the political parties try to keep these organization under their sleeve and use them as a tool for their nefarious purposes.
The politician tease and torment you to surrender them meekly.
Well you must have read the story of bakasura in mahabharat and how bheema conquered him.
Coming to the points raised by you I am very little fry to counter argue your points, but still like to you to ponder on the following points.
· What was anna hazare political or political status prior to start of national movement against curruption.
· What was his assets except one ngo organization and hand full of dedicated intelligent supporters. Known as team anna
· Entacting a bill known as lokpal bill , commonly known as anti curreption law within in constitutional law of Article 14 in The Constitution Of India 1949 - 14. Equality before law The State shall not deny to any person equality before the law or the equal protection of the laws within the territory of India Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth. With a exception of judiciary all indian come in the purview including prime minister.
· When he started the movement h was not having the support of fourth estate viz four pillars of democracy are Legislature, Executive, Judiciary and Press. Media holds important constructive part outside the government system and therefore also known as the fourth estate.
· By sheer will power and hand full of dedicated worker staking his life, he fought battle of nerves for awakening the people at the same time made the mountain to bow down to masses.
· Anna hazare has taken a herculian task of awakening the masses In a gandhian ahimsa way and put a shriganesh in the highest forumn of the country.
· It has enhanced the sagging image of democracy in the eyes of value.
· How the anna team has worked out its way has been given in my another mail the link is
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main50.asp?filename=Ne030911coverstory3.asp
Mr baloo has attempted to explain the things.
The parliament may enact any number of law, will be ineffective unless until we actively rigorously adopt it in our day to day life. Anna hazare is only beacons light and we have to follow.
In tamil nadu both dmk and aidmk party are two sides of the same coin. The people are not united to bring any change. Even highly intelligent owner of press media cho ramswami could not make any dent in TN. Have you not noticed that in recent national debate both the parties were silent spectator.
It is not the people at the helm of affairs but the man at grass root level to make any movement success full.
I was anticipating the turn coat attitude of congress apprehending the political milage that BJP will get, but sushma swaraji and arun jaitly has forced the issue of resolution showing that national interest is above the party interest.
Now you carefully read the contents of vox populi prevails caricature the moment resolution was approved in the parliament.
LET US PUT OUR SELF IN THEIR POSITION AND RETHINK THE WHOLE ISSUE AFRESH.
At the time of posting this one I have received post from our vetern
S/S Praveen and Guru Prasad who makes the whole issue crystal clear
Cnu.pne
Anna Hazare has aroused a national fervour against corruptions in public life. The common people of India are aghast with corruption and now at last have found a platform and a leader to express their anger and loathing loudly and clearly. Team Anna has drafted a bill, terming Janlokpal bill claimed to have plugged the lacunae of the government’s draft lokpal bill. Many people accept Team Anna’s reasons to include judiciaries, bureaucrats of all levels, elected members and even the Prime Minister under the ambit of lokpal but many also points out that corporate and news sectors shall also be brought under the lokpal jurisdiction. The Government and Team Anna are yet to come to conscientious on lokpal bill . Anna Hazare is on fast to press for enacting of lokpal bill with modifications as suggested by his “team”.
However common people who actually are instrumental in making this mass movement to such an enormous dimension are not aware of the nitty-gritty of how the government will deal with corruptions or the parliamentary process of enacting the lokpal bill. The reason of their participation with team Anna's crusade is corruption has become unbearable to them and they want it to be stopped immediately.
Print and electronic medias are actively associated in Anna Hazare movement against corruption. Times News and other channel are openly organizing mass movement against the UPA government for team Anna’s “janlokpal bill”. TOI and other dailies are also taking active part in moulding public opinion against the UPA government in this respect.
It is said that the four pillars of democracy are Legislature, Executive, Judiciary and Press. Media holds important constructive part outside the government system and therefore also known as the fourth estate.
நல்லதுசெய் நல்லதே நடக்கும்
जन सेवा इश्वर सेवा
cnu.pne
Ck.ashokumar
Aug 28, 2011, 10:52:00 AM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com, Sadgoshthi
Dear praveen I appreciate & endorse ur views. Definitely the change is coming for good.Anna
Has relived Gandhi & electrified the nation particularly the youth
Sent from my iPad Cka
Ck.ashokumar
Aug 28, 2011, 11:05:27 AM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com, sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Dear gopalakrishnan u r entitled to ve ur views. I strongly condemn ur words on Anna
Sent from my iPad Cka
Ck.ashokumar
Aug 28, 2011, 11:38:48 AM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com, sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Well said omplas! Shortly we see the election in up & Delhi ? Con men r shit scared of Anna
Sent from my iPad Cka
Omplas Chennai
Aug 28, 2011, 12:11:43 PM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Ashok. This is Baloo. Omplas Systems is my company name.
I don't know we are up for an election... but surely a great mass movement. A revolutionary one that is going to change many short comings of our constitution. This is a dire need for our country.
With regards,
Baloo
From: Ck.ashokumar <cka...@gmail.com>
To: "sadgo...@googlegroups.com" <sadgo...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "sadgo...@googlegroups.com" <sadgo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [sadgoshthi] Sorry, Mr. Anna, but you just have fooled yourself
Omplas Chennai
Aug 28, 2011, 12:31:55 PM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Dear All
Given below are the links for the various details & activities about Mr. Anna and his team.
This site is run by them. Those who have not visited this site can do it now.
My honest appeal to every one is to become a volunteer (through the second link) and strengthen his hands. This is the need of the time.
We can contribute to this noble
cause in our own way.
Best regds.,
Baloo
From: Omplas Chennai <omp...@yahoo.com>
To: "sadgo...@googlegroups.com" <sadgo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011 9:41 PM
Dr D Bharadwaj
Aug 28, 2011, 11:54:14 PM8/28/11
to sadgo...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the links Baloo.
Dr. D. Bharadwaj
dr.d.bh...@gmail.com
Yes each one of us must strengthen the hands of such souls.
శ్రీరమణార్పణమస్తు
dr.d.bh...@gmail.com
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages