Discussion on talk-suggestions
rarepleasures
Theres plenty known on Rails already I feel. I'd rather hear about
Sinatra, Ramize etc
Murray Steele
actually know enough about all these other frameworks? I think,
probably not, however there is some time until Ruby Manor. Anthony,
maybe you could use this time to find out enough about 3 or 4 other
ruby web frameworks to present a roundup on them?
Muz
2008/9/16 rarepleasures <em...@acgreen.co.uk>:
Pratik
frameworks - They are all pretty much the same shit but in different
packages, and with stupidly minor differences made just to look cooler
in the rat race.
I'd love to see a fair comparison between frameworks in other
languages and typical ruby frameworks ( Rails/Whatever ). I've seen
just one django/rails comparison till date. None between
seaside/rails. I think there is plenty we can/should learn from the
framework world outside ruby.
Instead of doing a "Merb vs Rails" talk, it'd be rather interesting if
we get some django guys and do a "django v/s rails".
--
Cheers!
- Pratik
http://m.onkey.org
Tom Ward
>
> Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of hearing about "alternative" Ruby
> frameworks - They are all pretty much the same shit but in different
> packages, and with stupidly minor differences made just to look cooler
> in the rat race.
>
> I'd love to see a fair comparison between frameworks in other
> languages and typical ruby frameworks ( Rails/Whatever ). I've seen
> just one django/rails comparison till date. None between
> seaside/rails. I think there is plenty we can/should learn from the
> framework world outside ruby.
>
> Instead of doing a "Merb vs Rails" talk, it'd be rather interesting if
> we get some django guys and do a "django v/s rails".
One the one hand, I'm 100% behind what Pratik says. I've not found
anything particularly novel in any of the other ruby frameworks. I
like the fact that there's more than just rails (IMO the best thing
Merb has done is reinvigorate Rails development), but for an
interesting talk we'd need to look much further than just ruby
frameworks. Maybe that would fall outside the scope of Ruby Manor?
Tom
Matt Wynne
>
> Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of hearing about "alternative" Ruby
> frameworks - They are all pretty much the same shit but in different
> packages, and with stupidly minor differences made just to look cooler
> in the rat race.
Please tell me there's something better than ActiveRecord out there!
Coming from C# / NHibernate and being a TDD-aholic, AR is driving me
insane.
I'd like to see a comparison of ORMs for ruby - that would float my
boat.
cheers,
Matt
----
http://blog.mattwynne.net
http://songkick.com
In case you wondered: The opinions expressed in this email are my own
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any former, current or
future employers of mine.
Martin Sadler
Here are a few bods in the UK who have Rails and Django experience:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Aworkingwithrails.com+United%2BKingdom+Django
Volunteers? :)
James Adam
>
> Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of hearing about "alternative" Ruby
> frameworks - They are all pretty much the same shit but in different
> packages, and with stupidly minor differences made just to look cooler
> in the rat race.
While you might be right, this is just an assertion, an a
controversial one at that! Maybe you could give a talk: "why there's
no point looking at other web frameworks beyond rails", to convince
everyone else? I'm quite serious.
> I'd love to see a fair comparison between frameworks in other
> languages and typical ruby frameworks ( Rails/Whatever ). I've seen
> just one django/rails comparison till date. None between
> seaside/rails. I think there is plenty we can/should learn from the
> framework world outside ruby
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
I think your last point is the most interesting: I do wonder why you
are sure there's no innovation in other Ruby frameworks, but I'd
always be keen for someone to point out useful insights and techniques
from *any* source that I can use in my own code.
I'm far less interested in a Rails vs. Django talk, because I'm not
coming to Ruby Manor to choose a new web framework. I love Ruby, so
hearing 'Django/Seaside/Erlyweb is better at XYZ' isn't terribly
helpful unless there's also discussion about how we can bring those
benefits to a Ruby tool.
Hope that makes sense; it's not that i hate other languages, I'm just
keen to hear about Ruby.
James
Anthony Green
other frameworks to make it worth a talk but I've never bothered to
investigate any of the others so Pratik may well be right. I saw yehuda
katz's brief introduction to Merb at Rails Conf and that left me wanting to
know more about Merb - they were asserting they had a different
philosophical approach
So
+1
On James comments
Pratik
> While you might be right, this is just an assertion, an a
> controversial one at that! Maybe you could give a talk: "why there's
> no point looking at other web frameworks beyond rails", to convince
> everyone else? I'm quite serious.
I've never given a single talk, ever. So while it's easier to write an
email, talk in person, I'm *really* scared of presenting to a large
audience. Apart from that, I'm not 100% sure if I'll be in London
during November. And also, I wouldn't say that there's "NO" point in
looking at other frameworks. I use Sinatra quite a bit and love it.
Same for custom Rack handlers.
> I think your last point is the most interesting: I do wonder why you
> are sure there's no innovation in other Ruby frameworks, but I'd
> always be keen for someone to point out useful insights and techniques
> from *any* source that I can use in my own code.
>
When I say there is no innovation, I am really talking about the
public facing interface of these frameworks ( Rails/Merb/Ramaze ) and
not how they do things under the hood. And if you have a quick glance
at http://ramaze.net/features and http://merbivore.com/features.html -
I think it's quite apparent that while they all may have minor
differences, there is nothing ground breaking going on there, if
compared to Rails.
> I'm far less interested in a Rails vs. Django talk, because I'm not
> coming to Ruby Manor to choose a new web framework. I love Ruby, so
> hearing 'Django/Seaside/Erlyweb is better at XYZ' isn't terribly
> helpful unless there's also discussion about how we can bring those
> benefits to a Ruby tool.
Of course. As I said in the first email "I think there is plenty we
can/should learn from the framework world outside ruby.". Probably, I
should have put more emphasis on that. I want to hear more about
comparisons and innovations in other language frameworks *only and
only* to bring the benefits to the ruby world.
I should also state that my idea is inspire by these two talks from DjangoCon :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fipFKyW2FA4&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk
( worth watching )
> Hope that makes sense; it's not that i hate other languages, I'm just
> keen to hear about Ruby.
Well, I'm more interested in hearing things I don't know about. It's
very likely that most of the people doing Merb/Ramaze, are also doing
Rails. And most of the people doing Rails, have played with Merb etc.
And this makes me very skeptical that I'll find out anything new from
attending a Merb v/s Rails talk.
> James
Matt Wynne
> very likely that most of the people doing Merb/Ramaze, are also doing
> Rails. And most of the people doing Rails, have played with Merb etc.
> And this makes me very skeptical that I'll find out anything new from
> attending a Merb v/s Rails talk.
As someone who's only worked with rails so far, I'd love to know what
life is like on the outside.
Roland Swingler
the OP suggested. Framework roundups can be ok, but you tend not to
learn very much about any of them. What I would be interested in is
more along the lines of "steps you would need to go through to build
your own framework". Not because you'd necessarily want to do this
(aside from the learning experience) but more because it is too easy
to treat rails / merb / sinatra etc. as a magic box that provides you
with the ability to put stuff on the web, without really considering
what is going on under the covers. So a talk picking out interesting
bits from a variety of frameworks (including rails) as to how various
core things (such as routing etc.) are implemented might be
enlightening.
Roland
On Sep 16, 8:42 pm, Matt Wynne <m...@mattwynne.net> wrote:
> > Well, I'm more interested in hearing things I don't know about. It's
> > very likely that most of the people doing Merb/Ramaze, are also doing
> > Rails. And most of the people doing Rails, have played with Merb etc.
> > And this makes me very skeptical that I'll find out anything new from
> > attending a Merb v/s Rails talk.
>
> As someone who's only worked with rails so far, I'd love to know what
> life is like on the outside.
>
> cheers,
> Matt
James Cox
love to see a talk where someone took snippets of code from various
sources and explained why they really like them. think of this like an
anti or opposite to a wtf code snippet talk.
Murray Steele
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:37 PM, James Adam <ja...@lazyatom.com> wrote:
>
>> While you might be right, this is just an assertion, an a
>> controversial one at that! Maybe you could give a talk: "why there's
>> no point looking at other web frameworks beyond rails", to convince
>> everyone else? I'm quite serious.
>
> I've never given a single talk, ever. So while it's easier to write an
> email, talk in person, I'm *really* scared of presenting to a large
> audience. Apart from that, I'm not 100% sure if I'll be in London
> during November.
Maybe you could work with someone else to prepare a talk and have them
give it? Ben Griffiths has already suggested this sort of
collaborative effort (albeit for different reasons) and I think it's a
great way for people to participate if they don't think they'll be
able to give a talk for whatever reason.
In your case it sounds like Tom is in agreement with you about wanting
to look to frameworks written in other languages, so maybe the two of
you could work on something covering that angle together? Or, if you
think there is some merit to James' suggestion about "why there's no
point..." it sounds like you've already put in a lot of the up-front
effort to evaluate the existing ruby web frameworks so you could pass
on your knowledge about them to someone else and create a talk around
that?
Muz
inou...@googlemail.com
I am not that interested in "feature comparison" as you can easily
find that by googling.
I am more interested in knowing how internal of Merb differ from Rails
and how to hack around.
When I had to do some debug on Rails, it's painful to follow through
the framework, because of too much magic (especially when you want to
do something against Rails "Opinionated" features". Since Merb is
claiming to be "Hacker's framework", would be worth switching if I can
find easy way to find the structure of the framework and
tweak&extend.
When I played with Merb, I often hit problems because the sample codes
on the web are out of date and won't work against the merb gems I just
installed. To fix the problem, it would help a lot if I have better
understanding of the internal of the framework.
Lastly, doing source code comparison of 2 similar frameworks will be
interesting just for the sake of code reading.
I know very little about Merb and had never done presentation, but
happy to help preparing slides or doing further research if someone is
up for giving this talk.
Makoto
On Sep 17, 11:32 pm, "Murray Steele" <murray.ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/9/16 Pratik <pratikn...@gmail.com>:
rarepleasures
presentations at Confreaks from this years conferences. There are a
couple on Merb and an overall comparison of the two. This way the
talks at Ruby Manor can dig a little deeper into the internals with
everyone able to follow wahts going on.
Tony
jag
friends for a year, hitting the usa next year; wouldn't mind a little
coverage ;-)
all the best,
John.