Fwd: [haiku-development] non-linux devroom at FOSDEM ?

[scott mc]

Possible meetup of Non-Linux OSes at the next FOSDEM, perhaps pass
this one to any devs from your projects that might be attending
FOSDEM.
-scottmc

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: François Revol <re...@free.fr>
Date: Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Subject: [haiku-development] non-linux devroom at FOSDEM ?
To: haiku-de...@freelists.org

Hi,
I tried to organize this already last year but we couldn't get one,
maybe this year it could work...
it seems actually FOSDEM orgs have thought about merging all distro
devrooms in a pool of "distro" devrooms, which should free up some
slots...

http://fosdem.org/2010/distrominiconf

Maybe either we can have a separate extra room for us, or take one of
the 3 reserved for distros...

this would allow us to talk about topics specific to non-linux OSes,
like drivers...
I'd also like to discuss interop on things like xattrs.

Scott, would you forward to the Rosetta mailing list ?

I'll try to contact AROS and ReactOS...

the deadline is nov 22.

François.

[Arun Thomas]

scott mc wrote:
> Possible meetup of Non-Linux OSes at the next FOSDEM, perhaps pass
> this one to any devs from your projects that might be attending
> FOSDEM.
> -scottmc
>
>
>

MINIX would definitely be interested in such a session.

Best,
Arun

[Joel Sherrill]

My travel budget is USD0 which is really close to EU0. :)

We are interested and I am trying to find a core RTEMS developer in Europe to
attend.

--joel

> Best,
> Arun
>

[Thomas Doerfler]

Hi,

I will try to attend the FOSDEM. I am not yet sure whether my schedule
allows it but things look good up to now.

I am looking forward to meeting other Rosetta-OS people. :-)

wkr,
Thomas.

Joel Sherrill schrieb:

--
--------------------------------------------
Embedded Brains GmbH
Thomas Doerfler Obere Lagerstr. 30
D-82178 Puchheim Germany
email: Thomas....@embedded-brains.de
Phone: +49-89-18908079-2
Fax: +49-89-18908079-9

[mmu_man]

Hi there !

> I will try to attend the FOSDEM. I am not yet sure whether my schedule
> allows it but things look good up to now.
>
> I am looking forward to meeting other Rosetta-OS people. :-)
>

Me too...

If you want to participate in a non-linux devroom make sure you fill
the form:
http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_developer_rooms
quoting you would like to be part of a "non-linux" devroom, either as
part of the distro ones or separately.
If enough non-linux projects request a devroom maybe we'll get one...

Here is what I filled, you should probably reuse the name:
---
* devroom name: Alt-OS (Anything-but-Linux-disTro Operating System)

* devroom description:

Talks and workshops about alternative (non Linux based) opensource
operating systems, in the purpose of sharing experience on application
ports, common driver development and design differences.

Possible talks include :
- POSIX & *nix compatibility coverage of alternative OSes (example
from Haiku...)
- *nix app porting tricks (autoconf, ...)
- OSSv4 port considerations
- status of the NetSurf port to Haiku

Possible workshops include :
- porting a command line application to Haiku
- porting a FreeBSD network driver to Haiku
- native hello world GUI application on Haiku


* devroom related URLs:
http://www.haiku-os.org/
http://groups.google.com/group/rosetta-os?pli=1
http://opensound.com/
http://netsurf-browser.org/

* comments/remarks:
It could either be done as part of the distro miniconf, or as a
separate room. We would actually welcome discussions with distro
projects too, on subjects like package management for example.

Possible projects interested in joining in:
RTEMS http://www.rtems.com/
Minix http://www.minix3.org/
AROS http://aros.org/
ReactOS http://www.reactos.org/fr/index.html
Syllable http://web.syllable.org/pages/index.html
Other participants in the Rosetta OS (discussion group about non-linux
FOSS OSes) http://groups.google.com/group/rosetta-os?pli=1

---

I'd suggest you also fill the form to show the orga how much demand
there is for it.
We'll get an answer by 2009-11-29.

You can also ask for a booth:
http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_stands
I just sent the Haiku request.

The general call for participation:
http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_participation

François.

[mmu_man]

> The general call for participation:http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_participation

Btw; deadline is 22nd, so hurry up!

François.

[Arun Thomas]

mmu_man wrote:
>> The general call for participation:http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_participation
>>
>
> Btw; deadline is 22nd, so hurry up!
>
>
>

Ok, I just sent in a request.

Arun

[antrik]

Hi,

I was pointend do this by mmu_man, who was so thoughtful as to mention
it on the #hurd IRC channel. Indeed the Hurd is another non-Linux
group interested in driver reuse -- and we usually have at least some
people attending FOSDEM...

On Nov 20, 7:32 pm, mmu_man <rev...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you want to participate in a non-linux devroom make sure you fill
> the form:http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_developer_rooms
> quoting you would like to be part of a "non-linux" devroom, either as
> part of the distro ones or separately.
> If enough non-linux projects request a devroom maybe we'll get one...

I don't think this is related to distros in any way -- the only thing
we have in common with the distro rooms is that it would be another
room shared by several organisations. And I'm not even sure it's the
same situation... I wonder, would this room be really just a shared
room for various OS projects doing their individual talks; or rather
focusing on actual exchange between the individual projects?

In the latter case, is it really necessary that each interested
subproject registers seperately? I would have thought that a single
request in the name of all participants would suffice...

> Here is what I filled, you should probably reuse the name:
> ---
> * devroom name: Alt-OS (Anything-but-Linux-disTro Operating System)

"Anything but Linux" has a negative undertone which I do not quite
like :-)

> * devroom description:
>
> Talks and workshops about alternative (non Linux based) opensource
> operating systems, in the purpose of sharing experience on application
> ports, common driver development and design differences.

Another nitpick: we do not conisider us an "opensource operating
system" -- we do free software :-)

There is a reason why the conference is called *F*OSDEM...

> Possible projects interested in joining in:
> RTEMShttp://www.rtems.com/
> Minixhttp://www.minix3.org/
> AROShttp://aros.org/
> ReactOShttp://www.reactos.org/fr/index.html
> Syllablehttp://web.syllable.org/pages/index.html

This list misses out several projects listed on the original mentor
summit session that started all this -- is this on purpose?...

BTW, there is another group that's missing here IMHO: the various L4
projects. The Dresden group with their DDE stuff in particular: they
created their own layer for reusing unmodified drivers from other
systems.

http://wiki.tudos.org/DDE/DDEKit

Originally they used Linux, but they also created a FreeBSD variant.
The design seems quite interesting: AIUI, they have the actual DDEs,
which integrate individual subsystems from the other kernels,
presenting a common interface to system-specific functionality; and
the DDEKit component, which implements the functionality for L4. From
the sound of it, it might be possible to reuse the DDEs on other
systems than L4, by writing different DDEKits.

The Hurd so far uses a private glue layer that runs (ancient) Linux
drivers in Mach. According to the thesis report, it originally used
unmodfied drivers -- though it seems that someone updating it later on
was less careful, as there are a few modifications to the Linux
drivers used nowadays...

In either case, we are interested in replacing the ancient drivers by
something newer of course -- ideally, running in user space. Presently
we have a former GSoC student evaluating the possibility of running
foreign drivers in user space on Mach -- either using the L4 DDE
stuff, or our own glue layer again, if DDE turns out unsuitable.

While we used Linux drivers so far (they have the advantage of much
more manpower), we consider switching to BSD as well -- these are
supposed to have more stable interfaces; and also the licensing is
more liberal. (While the Hurd is als GPL, we would like to switch to
GPLv3 -- so GPLv2 only Linux code is problematic...)

In view of these things, exchange with other groups reusing drivers
definitely makes sense :-)

-antrik-

[mmu_man]

> > If you want to participate in a non-linux devroom make sure you fill
> > the form:http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_developer_rooms
> > quoting you would like to be part of a "non-linux" devroom, either as

Hi,

> I don't think this is related to distros in any way -- the only thing
> we have in common with the distro rooms is that it would be another
> room shared by several organisations. And I'm not even sure it's the

Well no, it depends on projects. Hurd is about creating a kernel for
the GNU operating system, however projects like AROS, ReactOS and
Haiku are full-blown OSes that are interested in things that most
distros also have to deal with, since those OSes are basically their
own distribution of themselves, so they are interested into package
management for ex.

> same situation... I wonder, would this room be really just a shared
> room for various OS projects doing their individual talks; or rather
> focusing on actual exchange between the individual projects?

The idea was to have projects talk about subjects that could be useful
to others, but it should be possible to have some talks about other
subjects, given the rare opportunity for those usually small projects.

> In the latter case, is it really necessary that each interested
> subproject registers seperately? I would have thought that a single
> request in the name of all participants would suffice...

I suggested multiple registration to show the orgs that many projects
were interested in joining in, and so raise their awareness and our
chances of getting a room.

> "Anything but Linux" has a negative undertone which I do not quite
> like :-)

Yeah I don't like it either, it was just for the same of getting an
acronym.

> > Talks and workshops about alternative (non Linux based) opensource
> > operating systems, in the purpose of sharing experience on application
> > ports, common driver development and design differences.
>
> Another nitpick: we do not conisider us an "opensource operating
> system" -- we do free software :-)
>
> There is a reason why the conference is called *F*OSDEM...

I know the difference, though remember FOSDEM is definitely not about
political stuff, and as RMS said, opensource is a technical
description, freesoftware is an ethical and political one :p

> This list misses out several projects listed on the original mentor
> summit session that started all this -- is this on purpose?...

No, I actually don't remember seeing this list in the first place, I
wasn't at the summit.

> BTW, there is another group that's missing here IMHO: the various L4
> projects. The Dresden group with their DDE stuff in particular: they
> created their own layer for reusing unmodified drivers from other
> systems.

Interesting, feel free to forward the proposition.

> In either case, we are interested in replacing the ancient drivers by
> something newer of course -- ideally, running in user space. Presently
> we have a former GSoC student evaluating the possibility of running
> foreign drivers in user space on Mach -- either using the L4 DDE
> stuff, or our own glue layer again, if DDE turns out unsuitable.

You might also want to check OpenSound, there is someone starting a
Minix port, in userland too.

François.

[olafBud...@gmx.net]

Hi,

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 02:24:42PM -0800, mmu_man wrote:

> > > If you want to participate in a non-linux devroom make sure you
> > > fill the form:http://fosdem.org/2010/call_for_developer_rooms
> > > quoting you would like to be part of a "non-linux" devroom, either
> > > as
>

> > I don't think this is related to distros in any way -- the only
> > thing we have in common with the distro rooms is that it would be
> > another room shared by several organisations. And I'm not even sure
> > it's the
>
> Well no, it depends on projects. Hurd is about creating a kernel for
> the GNU operating system, however projects like AROS, ReactOS and
> Haiku are full-blown OSes that are interested in things that most
> distros also have to deal with, since those OSes are basically their
> own distribution of themselves, so they are interested into package
> management for ex.

Well, if exchange with GNU/Linux distributions is your aim, then
probably there is little point in an *extra* room for other systems...

> > I wonder, would this room be really just a shared room for various
> > OS projects doing their individual talks; or rather focusing on
> > actual exchange between the individual projects?
>
> The idea was to have projects talk about subjects that could be useful
> to others, but it should be possible to have some talks about other
> subjects, given the rare opportunity for those usually small projects.

I see.

> > "Anything but Linux" has a negative undertone which I do not quite
> > like :-)
>
> Yeah I don't like it either, it was just for the same of getting an
> acronym.

You mean backronym :-)

> > > Talks and workshops about alternative (non Linux based) opensource
> > > operating systems, in the purpose of sharing experience on
> > > application ports, common driver development and design
> > > differences.
> >
> > Another nitpick: we do not conisider us an "opensource operating
> > system" -- we do free software :-)
> >
> > There is a reason why the conference is called *F*OSDEM...
>
> I know the difference, though remember FOSDEM is definitely not about
> political stuff, and as RMS said, opensource is a technical
> description, freesoftware is an ethical and political one :p

Right -- and we refuse to use a term that renounces the reason why our
movement exists in the first place :-)

I do not mean no start a holy war here; but my point is that the name of
the conference explicitely caters to both confessions, and so should do
the topic of the devroom...

> > This list misses out several projects listed on the original mentor
> > summit session that started all this -- is this on purpose?...
>
> No, I actually don't remember seeing this list in the first place, I
> wasn't at the summit.

I see. The list is prominent on
http://gsoc-wiki.osuosl.org/index.php/Non-Linux_OS_Meetup

> > BTW, there is another group that's missing here IMHO: the various L4
> > projects. The Dresden group with their DDE stuff in particular: they
> > created their own layer for reusing unmodified drivers from other
> > systems.
>
> Interesting, feel free to forward the proposition.

OK.

> > In either case, we are interested in replacing the ancient drivers
> > by something newer of course -- ideally, running in user space.
> > Presently we have a former GSoC student evaluating the possibility
> > of running foreign drivers in user space on Mach -- either using the
> > L4 DDE stuff, or our own glue layer again, if DDE turns out
> > unsuitable.
>
> You might also want to check OpenSound, there is someone starting a
> Minix port, in userland too.

Well, there is nothing new about running drivers in user space on top of
Minix, or microkernels in general; so I wouldn't expect any new
revelations there...

(Actually there isn't even anything new about runnig unmodified Linux or
BSD drivers on top of a microkernel, as that's what the L4 DDE is
already doing -- the new thing for us is doing this on top of Mach...
OTOH, I mentioned DDE, as while not new, I think it's pretty similar to
what people are interested in here -- cooperation seems desirable.
Perhaps I should have started a new thread, though.)

-antrik-

[mmu_man]

> Well, if exchange with GNU/Linux distributions is your aim, then
> probably there is little point in an *extra* room for other systems...

As I said, both.

> > > > Talks and workshops about alternative (non Linux based) opensource
> > > > operating systems, in the purpose of sharing experience on
> > > > application ports, common driver development and design
> > > > differences.
>
> > > Another nitpick: we do not conisider us an "opensource operating
> > > system" -- we do free software :-)
>
> > > There is a reason why the conference is called *F*OSDEM...
>
> > I know the difference, though remember FOSDEM is definitely not about
> > political stuff, and as RMS said, opensource is a technical
> > description, freesoftware is an ethical and political one :p
>
> Right -- and we refuse to use a term that renounces the reason why our
> movement exists in the first place :-)

And they refuse to engage in political wars too :p

>
> I do not mean no start a holy war here; but my point is that the name of
> the conference explicitely caters to both confessions, and so should do
> the topic of the devroom...

Yes we can work it out now, the room has been accepted.

> > You might also want to check OpenSound, there is someone starting a
> > Minix port, in userland too.
>
> Well, there is nothing new about running drivers in user space on top of
> Minix, or microkernels in general; so I wouldn't expect any new
> revelations there...

I was more talking about getting hint about a port to a similar
architecture to go faster.

François.

[olafBud...@gmx.net]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 04:55:43PM -0800, mmu_man wrote:

> > > > Another nitpick: we do not conisider us an "opensource operating
> > > > system" -- we do free software :-)

[...]

> > I do not mean no start a holy war here; but my point is that the
> > name of the conference explicitely caters to both confessions, and
> > so should do the topic of the devroom...
>
> Yes we can work it out now, the room has been accepted.

Great :-)

-antrik-

[mmu_man]

> > > I do not mean no start a holy war here; but my point is that the
> > > name of the conference explicitely caters to both confessions, and
> > > so should do the topic of the devroom...
>
> > Yes we can work it out now, the room has been accepted.
>
> Great :-)

So, any idea for a better acronym ?

François.

[mmu_man]

> So, any idea for a better acronym ?

Possibilities :

Alternative
Atypical

Linux (bad)
Libre


Technology
disTro (bad)
Traditional

...

François.

[mmu_man]

Btw, I started writing a call for participation on the Haiku wiki:
http://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/FOSDEM2010AltOSDevroomCallForParticipationDraft

Comments welcome.

I shall post it tomorrow on this list and the Haiku website at least.

[olafBud...@gmx.net]

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 09:20:20AM -0800, mmu_man wrote:

> > So, any idea for a better acronym ?

[...]

Well, do we really need such a backronym? Can't we just call it the
non-Linux devroom? :-)

-antrik-

[mmu_man]

>
> Well, do we really need such a backronym? Can't we just call it the
> non-Linux devroom? :-)

How about we just don't define it or leave it as a short for
Alternative ? ;)
I'd rather do the rest than debate on the name :p

Ok let's say the call is final :
http://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/FOSDEM2010AltOSDevroomCallForParticipationDraft

I'll send here as a new post.

Can someone copy it to the website or the wiki maybe ?
(you can get the wiki syntax source at the bottom of the page)

[olafBud...@gmx.net]

Hi,

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 03:25:45PM -0800, mmu_man wrote:

> > Well, do we really need such a backronym? Can't we just call it the
> > non-Linux devroom? :-)
>
> How about we just don't define it or leave it as a short for
> Alternative ? ;)

Right, just what I was thinking :-)

> Ok let's say the call is final :
> http://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/FOSDEM2010AltOSDevroomCallForParticipationDraft

Whow, that's nice :-)

-antrik-