Templates and Complex Entries
BradM
addressing template issues in this forum.
As I mentioned in my reply below, I was not creating a template, but
addressing issues that are not handled by existing templates -
specifically, multiple location entries. I suggest that the problem is
not easily handled by a single template and that many of the current
multiple location RocWiki entries (except the ones I fixed) are not
particularly "professional". I would suggest that regular contributors
use the existing template and some written guidance on multiple
location entries is advised. Our more advanced editors can cleanup the
entries with more advanced table entries that are customized to the
specifics of the entry. Some of the templates entries need only appear
once, others need to be tablulated. Some entries differ in having
hours, location specific web pages, accessiblilty, etc, Not easily
amenable to a single template, but anyone with a good idea for
reasonable and useful "standardization" should make a proposal.
For the moment, and in the meantime, I propose that template standards
should never trump cleanup of cluttered and confusing results - or
creative application of the wiki's available technology to make
RocWiki look good and have a more user-friendly content. I plan to
continue cleaning up poorly organized or appearing extended entries
and will happily convert them to a finalized STANDARD if, and
whenever, one appears.
If you have issues with my position, I suggest you look at one of the
changed entries listed below and then go back and compare it to some
previous revision to see the marked difference the changes make.
Brad Mandell
Webster, NY
---------MESSAGES-----
2009-04-09 23:04:47 Brad—with Starvin' Marvin's you've introduced a
*whole new business template*. While I think it's interesting and
plausible, this kind of wholesale change should have community input—
it's a bit more complicated then the standard template. I'm concerned
about keeping the template easy-to-use for the novice user/ Would you
mind holding off on more like this until it is discussed at a meeting
AND in the google group please? The April Contributor's meeting is
4/26 at 4pm at Jay's Diner —PeteB
My Response to Pete:
2009-04-10 11:21:02 Sorry Pete, I was not proposing a new
"Template", just trying to creatively cleanup messes with non-standard
business entries that have multiple locations. There is no template to
cover this case and different folks have tried a number of options for
dealing with the problem based on the "standard" business template.
Listings include: multiple instances of the template, one for each
location; putting lists of entries under each header entry; combining
some headers (Location/Phone) and making lists under them; plus
assorted combinations. There are a variety of complications and issues
with the multiple location businesses and I suspect they will have to
be dealt with more on a case by case basis. If anyone likes my
solution I am happy to see them use the techniques to cleanup other
less-than-friendly RocWiki entries.
You will also see variations on the techniques on Pizza Hut, Lowe's,
and Home Depot
Sorry I am not able to make it to the Contributors meetings - seems
they always happen when I am out of town or otherwise engaged.
—BradMandell
References:
http://rockwiki.org/Users/PeteB
http://rockwiki.org/Users/BradMandell
http://rockwiki.org/Starvin_Marvin's
http://rockwiki.org/Pizza_Hut
http://rockwiki.org/Lowe's
http://rockwiki.org//Home_Depot
BradM
mulitple entries - gave me a chance to give you the link to the
previous revisions
References:
http://rocwiki.org/Users/PeteB
http://rocwiki.org/Users/BradMandell
http://rocwiki.org/Starvin_Marvin's - http://rocwiki.org/Starvin%27_Marvin%27s?action=recall&version=13
http://rocwiki.org/Pizza_Hut - http://rocwiki.org/Pizza_Hut?action=recall&version=22
http://rocwiki.org/Lowe's - new entry I created
http://rocwiki.org//Home_Depot - http://rocwiki.org/Home_Depot?action=recall&version=5
Ryan Tucker
businesses very well, and my attempts to find a good way to do it
haven't looked very nice. This looks nice.
It's probably a pain in the ass because of how tables are handled, but
divining this out into a "Multi-Location Business Template" would
probably be good for future use. I'm not sure it'd get used all that
often, since a lot of slow-growing businesses will have RocWiki pages
before a second location, but you never know...
The other three pages look fine, but the Starvin Marvin's page looks a
little awkward to me. I think the variety of hours there is making my
head spin a bit. :-) It's a tough edge case, for sure. I'm not sure
how to improve it, but I figure I can't be all sunshine and rainbows.
-rt
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> For options, view full headers. See also http://groups.google.com/group/rochesterwiki
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Ryan Tucker <rtu...@gmail.com>
BradM
messy case of hours. I did the table in the same order as they appear
in the current template with days in rows as opposed to table form of
the rest of the data where I put the locations in the rows. . I
experimented with the days as column headers and locations in the
rows, but it seemed even more confusing. I put the Marvin's hours that
way on the talk page so folks can see it.
Here are some of the table compactness and display issues I was trying
to address:
A. Size of Location display entry - Location entry often is one of the
longest of the Headers:
1. Make an Address column and use the second parameter in the Address
Macro and include only the street part (many times this helps with the
Rochester, Webster, Fairport etc zipcodes not corresponding to the
location (Henrietta, Gates, Chili, Greece, Irondequoit; Penfield,
Perinton, etc
2. Use abrv for Rd, St, Blvd, Ave, W. E. N. S, etc (checking them
directly in Google helps) The
3. Addition of Location.column with town, plaza, or most useful
locator - this now appears quite often after the address in current
Location entries Also we are getting more and more location info such
as Strip malls, etc.
NOTE: the actual address with city, zip etc appears when you click on
the entry in the RocWiki Map
B. Logos - many national chain entries have logos on their pages -
there is a problem you can see documented in Wikipedia with respect to
use of these logos. The simplest way of dealing with potential issues
is to present it in a small enough size to support the position that
it is a THUMBNAIL and falls under fair-use. Most of these logos are
recognizable as small as 100-150. The most likely issue that could
arise for RocWiki would be a series of derogatory comments on a
national company's page bringing company attention to the entry and
using the use of the logo to be disruptive to RocWiki.
C Graphic Interfering with header tables: Putting the logo into a
header table also avoids problems with display presentation on smaller
browser windows (or smaller devices). A lot of RocWiki pages with
Images at right at top of page have display issues. The image will
jump ahead of the table when you reduce the width of the browser
window. I think Alexander (or someone) recently mentioned the problem
with Monroe County Town pages. I fixed all of those by redoing the
tables on those pages with a small reduction in the map size and
including the map in the top table.
More later
Ryan Tucker
> Thanks Ryan, I appreciate the positive feedback. I understand the
> messy case of hours. I did the table in the same order as they appear
> in the current template with days in rows as opposed to table form of
> the rest of the data where I put the locations in the rows. . I
> experimented with the days as column headers and locations in the
> rows, but it seemed even more confusing. I put the Marvin's hours that
> way on the talk page so folks can see it.
Hmm. I do like having the hours on the RocWiki page, but yeah, it's a
bit of a drag when they vary by location. I'd almost say it might be
worth it to put the intersection of all the hours in the header and then
put a footnote to note the differences, e.g.:
"""
Monday-Thursday: 10am to 9pm[1]
Friday: 10am to 11pm[2]
[1] Irondequoit & Webster open until 11pm Monday-Thursday
[2] Irondequoit & Webster open until midnight Friday
"""
But that still is cluttered and disorganized.
Eh, it's fine. :-)
> Here are some of the table compactness and display issues I was trying
> to address:
>
> A. Size of Location display entry - Location entry often is one of the
> longest of the Headers:
> 1. Make an Address column and use the second parameter in the Address
> Macro and include only the street part (many times this helps with the
> Rochester, Webster, Fairport etc zipcodes not corresponding to the
> location (Henrietta, Gates, Chili, Greece, Irondequoit; Penfield,
> Perinton, etc
> 2. Use abrv for Rd, St, Blvd, Ave, W. E. N. S, etc (checking them
> directly in Google helps) The
> 3. Addition of Location.column with town, plaza, or most useful
> locator - this now appears quite often after the address in current
> Location entries Also we are getting more and more location info such
> as Strip malls, etc.
> NOTE: the actual address with city, zip etc appears when you click on
> the entry in the RocWiki Map
That's what the second parameter is for, you betcha. As long as the
full address is in the address tag somewhere, it'll get properly
geocoded and that's what counts.
Would anyone object if the Bus icon on the Address macro were to go
away? Since that was added, Google has added RGRTA routing to their
directions service, so it's relatively moot at this point. Just
wondering if anyone actually uses it/prefers it.
> B. Logos - many national chain entries have logos on their pages -
> there is a problem you can see documented in Wikipedia with respect to
> use of these logos. The simplest way of dealing with potential issues
> is to present it in a small enough size to support the position that
> it is a THUMBNAIL and falls under fair-use. Most of these logos are
> recognizable as small as 100-150. The most likely issue that could
> arise for RocWiki would be a series of derogatory comments on a
> national company's page bringing company attention to the entry and
> using the use of the logo to be disruptive to RocWiki.
Personally, I do consider the use of logos in this case to be acceptable
under fair use. Wikipedia appears to think the same way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pizza_Hut_logo.svg
If a company were to specifically ask for their logo to be removed, I
don't think we'd say no. (I believe we have the right to use the logo
in these sorts of situations, but the RocWiki Legal Defense Fund has
three pennies, a nickel, a significant layer of dust, and a spider.)
> C Graphic Interfering with header tables: Putting the logo into a
> header table also avoids problems with display presentation on smaller
> browser windows (or smaller devices). A lot of RocWiki pages with
> Images at right at top of page have display issues. The image will
> jump ahead of the table when you reduce the width of the browser
> window. I think Alexander (or someone) recently mentioned the problem
> with Monroe County Town pages. I fixed all of those by redoing the
> tables on those pages with a small reduction in the map size and
> including the map in the top table.
Cool. I haven't had a chance to look in awhile, but the town pages do
look really nice.
I do a bunch of lab reports in Word these days, and I've come to the
conclusion that most document rendering engines have absolutely no idea
what "put the oscilloscope capture in the upper right corner of the page
and make it look nice" means. Tables and manual page breaks are saving
my sanity. Donald Knuth was right. -rt
--
Ryan Tucker <rtu...@gmail.com>
BradM
> away? Since that was added, Google has added RGRTA routing to their
> directions service, so it's relatively moot at this point. Just
> wondering if anyone actually uses it/prefers it.
icon :>})
Sometime we should talk about Google API stuff and see if there is a
way to open the Google page with the context info or the same info in
the Map context.
> Personally, I do consider the use of logos in this case to be acceptable
> under fair use. Wikipedia appears to think the same way:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pizza_Hut_logo.svg
>
> If a company were to specifically ask for their logo to be removed, I
> don't think we'd say no. (I believe we have the right to use the logo
> in these sorts of situations, but the RocWiki Legal Defense Fund has
> three pennies, a nickel, a significant layer of dust, and a spider.)
>
and making it a small image is less commercial and one more leg up for
the Defense Fund.
>
> Cool. I haven't had a chance to look in awhile, but the town pages do
> look really nice.
>
> I do a bunch of lab reports in Word these days, and I've come to the
> conclusion that most document rendering engines have absolutely no idea
> what "put the oscilloscope capture in the upper right corner of the page
> and make it look nice" means. Tables and manual page breaks are saving
> my sanity. Donald Knuth was right. -rt
issues with file sizes and image resolution doing documentation with
Word - my sympathies.
Donald was one of my professors at Stanford, learned ALGOL from him,
and a great "fundamentals" guy.
>
> --
> Ryan Tucker <rtuc...@gmail.com>
>
> signature.asc
> < 1KViewDownload
Pete B
Ryan Tucker
> Sometime we should talk about Google API stuff and see if there is a
> way to open the Google page with the context info or the same info in
> the Map context.
I think there may well be. There was a brief push to redo the Address
stuff in Sycamore many months back, but I think it's essentially fizzled
out at this point. Barring unforeseen circumstances (e.g. a job),
hopefully I'll have a chance to poke at this over the summer.
There have been some thoughts about migrating to another Wiki engine, as
well. Ideas have trickled in very slowly, but if anyone has any
suggestions or examples of other non-RocWiki Wikis with cool features
they like, fire away. Especially looking for awesome geodata handling.
> Word has its own ideas of tables and images as well - have had real
> issues with file sizes and image resolution doing documentation with
> Word - my sympathies.
I'm getting better. It's all in the tables, and not being shy with the
page breaks. Having to actually use the mouse to Paste Special is
really getting to me, though... ctrl-V does NOT do what I want.
On Friday mornings, a few of us hole up in an electronics lab and work
on lab reports; one of these days, I'm going to whip up a batch of Swear
Word Bingo cards.
> Donald was one of my professors at Stanford, learned ALGOL from him,
> and a great "fundamentals" guy.
I know LaTeX and flipped through TAOCP once or twice. That's as close
as I get. -rt
--
Ryan Tucker <rtu...@gmail.com>