> 1) There's no reason implicit in bitcoin that impedes the electric co.
> to accept bitcoin.

> 2) You're assuming that mining is super-profitable when this is not
> the case. It is a very competitive market and many miners actually
> incur in losses.

> 3) The energy spend is necessary to warranty the security of the
> system. Mining gold also expends resources. The current monetary
> system is many many times more expensive in concept of central bank
> experts and shared signoriage to bankers. The costs of the basic
> interest for society (which freicoin is supposed to eliminate) is
> tremendous. Every monetary system must have an associated cost. Even
> p2p Ripple (which I think will be the cheapest of them all) has costs.
> Of course, LETS systems can be cheaper, I was referring only to those
> which can scale globally.

> On 6/25/12, Black Dragon <psgrepj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If someone pays the electricity bill, he uses classical currency,  it
> makes
> > bitcoin implicitly depend on that currency. In addition financial
> > opportunities of payers are unequal. It seems that coins miner can make
> > very little personal efforts to mine coins, much less then supplier of
> > real-world good or service. Seems these circumstances will just bring
> > financial power redistribution w/o any social justice.
> > Also it looks very inefficient to spend energy for coins mining instead
> of
> > food production, for example...
> > Are my assumptions correct?

> > Regards, Dmitry.

> > On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 11:40 PM, Jorge Timón
> > <timon.elvi...@gmail.com>wrote:

> >> Thank you for the clarification.

> >> The issuance mechanism will be somewhat changed. With freicoin miners
> >> will be rewarded with new money for the service they provide (secure
> >> the network) perpetually. Since money is destroyed through demurrage,
> >> when the quantity created with each block equals the reward for
> >> miners, the total supply will converge to a fixed quantity.
> >> With bitcoin, the reward for miners stops (to limit the supply) and
> >> the security of the network will rely exclusively in transaction fees.
> >> Bitcoin is actually deflationary rather than having a fixed supply
> >> like freicoin, because the lost coins are never recycled.

> >> It seems that you find the issuance mechanism unfair, but miners have
> >> to pay their electricity bills, buy and maintain their hardware, etc.
> >> They're taking risks when entering that open mining market and they
> >> deserve to be compensated.
> >> Anyone can mine if he wants to, but I don't think it's profitable for
> >> most users of the currency.
> >> The non miners get their coins by providing something of value (goods
> >> and services, other monies) to someone who has them.

> >> On 6/23/12, Black <psgrepj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Saying 'atomization' I meant 'lack of abilities to act together in a
> >> > complex manner'.  There are no 'creative' places where anybody can
> >> > come,
> >> > say 'hey, I want to build a house (create a spaceship, etc...). Who
> are
> >> > with me?' and expect to find confederates.

> >> > ZE has both centralized currency and mutual credits subsystems.
> >> > Centralized internal currency allows user to take the credit according
> >> > its reputation (i.e. maximal credit value for user depends on user's
> >> > reputation). When user makes a payment for other user, then the
> payment
> >> > is 'timestamped' and it's effective value is decreased over the time.
> >> > The last circumstance affects user's total balance.
> >> > The mutual credit subsystem was added later as the complementary way
> to
> >> > allow mutual offset in the collaboration.
> >> > Let me know if you need other details.

> >> > Concerning the Bitcoin - ah ok see. Do you plan to leave the Bitcoin's
> >> > emission mechanism unchanged (and thus not depending on amount of
> >> > invested labour or user's reputation)?

> >> > On 06/23/2012 04:42 PM, Jorge Timón wrote:
> >> >> I'm not sure I've gotten your point about "atomization of society".
> >> >> Anyway, it's interesting that ZE has a currency with demurrage.
> >> >> I'm curious. It is based on mutual credit or is cash?
> >> >> The monetary base is fixed or elastic? If it is elastic, who controls
> >> its
> >> >> issue?

> >> >> When I implement freicoin I won't start from scratch, I will part
> from
> >> >> bitcoin's code. Demurrage is not specially difficult to implement,
> but
> >> >> all the cryptography stuff within bitcoin is, so I prefer to reuse
> >> >> that.

> >> >> On 6/23/12, Black<psgrepj...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> >>> Ok thanks for the references.
> >> >>> I've taken a look but my English is not excellent so it's a bit hard
> >> for
> >> >>> me to read long texts:)
> >> >>> As far I understood the key point of the Gesell's money is the
> >> >>> reducing
> >> >>> of the money value over the time. I agree that it could help to make
> >> >>> economic more healthy, but also I believe that there is an other big
> >> >>> problem. This is the problem of 'atomization' of the modern society.
> >> The
> >> >>> workplace is only 'real' socialization environment for many people
> >> where
> >> >>> they could act together. Many people spend they lives for absolutely
> >> >>> useless activity just because they receiving a money for that. But
> in
> >> >>> the same time they cannot make better their living environments or
> >> solve
> >> >>> the crime problems in their districts. Instead they delegate these
> >> tasks
> >> >>> for the government. But too often such delegation does not bring the
> >> >>> desired results. I live in Russia and I know there are countries
> >> >>> exists
> >> >>> where government works better but even in these countries I suppose
> >> >>> people have problems with the delegation of the social tasks to the
> >> >>> governments and other commercial companies.
> >> >>> I think that people rarely use self-organization to to solve their
> >> >>> problems because there are no information environment providing them
> >> >>> with the reliable partners and there are no tools that allow to
> >> simplify
> >> >>> organization of the cooperation structures on-the-fly. That why I'm
> >> >>> working on ZeroExchange.
> >> >>> By the way - ZE has already implemented monetary system with the
> >> >>> demurrage. So maybe you could adapt it for your purposes or add a
> new
> >> >>> money mechanics. It can be easier then write everything from the
> >> >>> scratch.
> >> >>> What do you think?

> >> >>> On 06/21/2012 09:26 PM, Jorge Timón wrote:
> >> >>>> No. Sorry, for now it's all scattered around various forums,
> >> >>>> freicoin's, bitcoin's and a little bit on the mises institute forum
> >> >>>> too.
> >> >>>> Basically is bitcoin with demurrage. Unlike Gesell's proposal,
> >> >>>> freicoin will have a fixed monetary based (bitcoin is really
> >> >>>> deflationary through lost wallets).
> >> >>>> If you don't know Silvio Gesell's proposal I highly recommend you
> >> >>>> his
> >> >>>> main
> >> >>>> book:

> >> >>>> http://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/
> >> >>>> http://archive.org/details/TheNaturalEconomicOrder

> >> >>>> You can skip the first two parts on land if you want to focus on
> >> money.
> >> >>>> Feel free to ask me anything about freicoin, bitcoin, Gesell's
> >> >>>> freigeld or how I relate his theory on interest with mutual credit
> >> >>>> (Ripple, LETS...).
> >> >>>> I'm glad you're interested.

> >> >>>> On 6/21/12, Black<_del...@mail.ru>   wrote:
> >> >>>>> Ok thanks for the answer!

> >> >>>>> Is there any recommended documents related to the freicoin I could
> >> >>>>> explore? Just professional interest. And who knows - maybe I'll be
> >> >>>>> able
> >> >>>>> to contribute some time...

> >> >>>>> On 06/21/2012 05:08 PM, Jorge Timón wrote:
> >> >>>>>> The idea sounds interesting.
> >> >>>>>> But although I use Java, I don't have the time to help right now.
> >> And
> >> >>>>>> when I get it, I plan to help with the ripple p2p implementation
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>> implement my more-than-a-year-old proposal for cash: freicoin.
> >> >>>>>> Sorry, maybe later.

> >> >>>>>> On 6/20/12, Black<psgrepj...@gmail.com>    wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> Hi everyone.

> >> >>>>>>> I had no chance to examine the group's previous conversations in
> >> >>>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>> so sorry if I violate any obvious agreements or say something
> >> >>>>>>> stupid.
> >> >>>>>>> Please correct me in that case.

> >> >>>>>>> I've integrated the simple Ripple case with the ZeroExchange
> >> >>>>>>> (zeroexchange.sourceforge.net) collective projects management
> >> >>>>>>> system.
> >> >>>>>>> The key feature of that system is a mechanism for organising of
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> collaboration networks with distribution of formalised
> >> >>>>>>> obligations
> >> >>>>>>> between members. Such networks are called the 'contracts'. When
> >> >>>>>>> obligation in the contract is fulfilled, the quality of
> >> >>>>>>> obligation
> >> >>>>>>> performance is evaluated and that evaluation affects the
> >> >>>>>>> reputation
> >> >>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>> the performer. Each obligation in the contract can be priced by
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> performer, that makes possible to use the mutual offset between
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> contract's members. So here is the point of the Ripple
> >> >>>>>>> integration:
> >> >>>>>>> those who invested a less then average value can establish a
> debt
> >> >>>>>>> relations with those who invested greater.
> >> >>>>>>> I appeal to the Java programmers in the ripple community (if
> any)
> >> to
> >> >>>>>>> join the development. I'm sure that  concepts of the collective
> >> >>>>>>> contracts and mutual offsets are complementary to each others
> and
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>> considerable potential for the development.
> >> >>>>>>> Please provide me with your thoughts on this.

> >> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >> >>>>>>> Dmitry.

> >> >>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> >> >>>>>>> Google
> >> >>>>>>> Groups
> >> >>>>>>> "Ripple Project" group.
> >> >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
> >> >>>>>>> rippleusers@googlegroups.com.
> >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> >>>>>>> rippleusers+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
> >> >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/rippleusers?hl=en.

> >> --
> >> Jorge Timón

> --
> Jorge Timón