Anyone feel like clarifying?
adelevet
ripplepay FAQ on "Why my account balance keeps changing?" -- how again
are they determined?
Also: ripple has probably been slow to pick up pace because it relies
on personal trust in an economic culture that rests on interactions
between strangers. Is it correct that ripple relies on third party
developers to come up with ways of how people may actually use ripple
(i.e. creating a marketplace that builds on the ripple concept)?
Ryan Fugger
>
> I couldn't find anything on exchange rates besides the comment in the
> ripplepay FAQ on "Why my account balance keeps changing?" -- how again
> are they determined?
>
Exchange rates are downloaded from oanda.com daily.
> Also: ripple has probably been slow to pick up pace because it relies
> on personal trust in an economic culture that rests on interactions
> between strangers. Is it correct that ripple relies on third party
> developers to come up with ways of how people may actually use ripple
> (i.e. creating a marketplace that builds on the ripple concept)?
Well, if someone did build a Ripple marketplace, that would be great.
Thomas is looking into it at the moment. Originally I felt that if a
whole community of people joined Ripplepay, they could just use
craigslist or something, and make sure they put that they accept
ripple in their ad, so people could search for it based on that
keyword.
The server I'm working on will expose the raw payment-routing
functionality and allow third-party developers to use that for
whatever they want, be it interpersonal payments (like Ripplepay),
payments between complementary currencies, tracking business debts, or
interbank payments. Of course, you can only pay entities that have
registered on a Ripple server, which is the real challenge: getting
people signed up. I'm always interested in hearing new ideas...
Ryan
Alexis Delevett
on the exchange rates just after I posted my question,
so sorry for the unnecessary footwork...
Unfortunately I am absolutely short on ideas and only
see how it can never work (I'm sure that's just me). I
posted a link on YC to see whether I can get the smart
people involved.
--- Ryan Fugger <rfu...@gmail.com> escribió:
____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/
adelevet
can go on anyway: How are assets dealt with in ripple, i.e. is there
account-internal accounting apart from the network-based credit line?
This question came up after visiting buxfer, where assets are
obviously at the center of my purchasing power. Put another way, how
is the money in my bank today represented in the ripple network of
tomorrow? Would my paycheck be a creditline offered by my employer?
On Mar 28, 11:03 pm, Alexis Delevett <adele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you for the quick response -- I found the post
> on the exchange rates just after I posted my question,
> so sorry for the unnecessary footwork...
>
> Unfortunately I am absolutely short on ideas and only
> see how it can never work (I'm sure that's just me). I
> posted a link on YC to see whether I can get the smart
> people involved.
>
Ryan Fugger
>
> I realize I haven't exactly been a bright light so far, but maybe I
> can go on anyway: How are assets dealt with in ripple, i.e. is there
> account-internal accounting apart from the network-based credit line?
> This question came up after visiting buxfer, where assets are
> obviously at the center of my purchasing power. Put another way, how
> is the money in my bank today represented in the ripple network of
> tomorrow? Would my paycheck be a creditline offered by my employer?
>
In the Ripple network of tomorrow, obligations from your Ripple
connections would be analogous to money in your bank today. You might
connect to any or all of friends, family, employers, community
currencies, corporations, cooperatives, credit unions, and yes, banks.
If your bank participated in Ripple, you could use Ripple without
having to do anything, just by making transfers through your bank. Of
course, you might find it cheaper or otherwise preferable to store
some or all of your "money" with other connections.
Your paycheck would be paid on a creditline with your employer only if
your employer offered you a creditline, you accepted it, and there was
available credit for your employer to pay you on that day. Otherwise,
they would pay your salary using ordinary Ripple payments, and it
would wind up as obligations on one of your other Ripple accounts.
Ryan
Thomas Hartman
Assuming you both are using ripple: yes. Anything that's an
account-receivable would be a credit line. Or, put another way, would
represent an *increase* in an existing credit line.
So one conceivable scenario in the glorious ripple future would be,
when you sign an employment agreement, you also link on ripple -- say,
giving each other 200 in credit. Or maybe you're not interested in
reciprocal linking, and you just accept your next paycheck in ripple
credit, and don't extend your employer any credit in the opposite
direction.
Two weeks later when the funds actually settle -- maybe direct deposit
into your bank account -- the ripple credit would disappears.
The confusing thing is that your employer might choose to extend
"ripple" credit to you beyond he owes you according to the contract.
Say he owes you $200 for two weeks of work, and then decides to extend
an additional $100 in credit just because he thinks you're a solid
person.
By GAAP, I think your accounting system should then reflect this by
saying that you have $200 in accounts receivable. The additional $100
in ripple credit should be in a different account -- maybe call it
"ripple credit line from employer" or something. This is analogous to
credit you have from a credit card. You definitely don't want to go
around mixing these two numbers if you want sane accounting.
thomas.
> > ˇCapacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
Ryan Fugger
> > Would my paycheck be a creditline offered by my employer?
>
>
> Assuming you both are using ripple: yes. Anything that's an
> account-receivable would be a credit line. Or, put another way, would
> represent an *increase* in an existing credit line.
>
> So one conceivable scenario in the glorious ripple future would be,
> when you sign an employment agreement, you also link on ripple -- say,
> giving each other 200 in credit. Or maybe you're not interested in
> reciprocal linking, and you just accept your next paycheck in ripple
> credit, and don't extend your employer any credit in the opposite
> direction.
>
> Two weeks later when the funds actually settle -- maybe direct deposit
> into your bank account -- the ripple credit would disappears.
This is misleading. Your employer would just pay you through Ripple
instead of writing a check or doing a direct deposit to your bank
account today. The paycheck value would end up in one or more of your
Ripple accounts. If you happened to have an account directly with
your employer, that would be the obvious place for it to end up, since
it's the shortest payment path between you and your employer.
>
> The confusing thing is that your employer might choose to extend
> "ripple" credit to you beyond he owes you according to the contract.
>
> Say he owes you $200 for two weeks of work, and then decides to extend
> an additional $100 in credit just because he thinks you're a solid
> person.
>
> By GAAP, I think your accounting system should then reflect this by
> saying that you have $200 in accounts receivable. The additional $100
> in ripple credit should be in a different account -- maybe call it
> "ripple credit line from employer" or something. This is analogous to
> credit you have from a credit card. You definitely don't want to go
> around mixing these two numbers if you want sane accounting.
Doing things this way would be silly and confusing for most people,
myself included. I don't keep track of personal "accounts
receivable". I just know that I should be paid by my employer, and
that it will go into one of my accounts when it's been paid. Now,
that means into one of my bank accounts. In the Ripple world, that
means into one of my Ripple accounts. That's all.
Ryan
Alexis Delevett
the creditline network and actually recognizes the
balance of past transactions -- which seems to be what
it does, right?
That would mean that if I had regular payments coming
in, e.g. because I was running a business and accepted
ripple as form of payment, I wouldn't have to rely on
friends extending me credit all the time to do my own
purchases. The only thing that would stop me from
doing this would the be that as of now I couldn't
really translate ripple funds into anything I need --
which however is solely a function of who participates
ripple community.
Let me know if this is correct, if you can.
Thank you already for the continued clarification
(maybe I should be the one to come up with the
presentation for Knud since I have gotten so much
first hand instruction -- I would be completely unable
to relate to the technical aspects possibly of
interest to a LUG however).
Alexis
--- Ryan Fugger <rfu...@gmail.com> escribió:
> On 3/29/08, Thomas Hartman
=== message truncated ===
____________________________________________________________________________________
ĄCapacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
Ryan Fugger
>
> I didn't realize that ripple accounting went beyond
> the creditline network and actually recognizes the
> balance of past transactions -- which seems to be what
> it does, right?
I'm not sure what you mean. Ripple accounting only recognizes
transactions in the Ripple network. You can use Ripple payments to
acknowledge a balance of past transactions if you want, but there's no
magic here. It only knows what it gets fed ;)
>
> That would mean that if I had regular payments coming
> in, e.g. because I was running a business and accepted
> ripple as form of payment, I wouldn't have to rely on
> friends extending me credit all the time to do my own
> purchases. The only thing that would stop me from
> doing this would the be that as of now I couldn't
> really translate ripple funds into anything I need --
> which however is solely a function of who participates
> ripple community.
Yes, that's right. To me this is where Ripple can really eclipse the
existing monetary system. When a business allows payment after
delivery of goods, it is extending credit, and that credit can be
incorporated into the Ripple network. Instead of sending an invoice,
it can register the debt on Ripple (with the permission of the buyer,
of course), and then use that as money right away by making payments
through the buyer into the greater network, instead of having to wait
for the buyer to pay up, or take out a bank loan at interest with the
invoice as collateral. Instead of competing for credits issued by the
scorekeeping authority (ie, the bank) backed by credits granted by us
to the authority, we just use credits that we all grant each other,
straightaway, and cut out the authority altogether. It ought to be
cheaper that way.
Ryan
Alexis Delevett
missing something important:
What I meant with 'recognizing the balance of past
transactions' was that I could be selling, selling,
selling (or otherwise generating ripple accounted
income, e.g. receiving my paycheck) and this would be
available for me to spend without me having to rely on
the ripple network -- i.e. once I have received
payments I do not need credit in order to pay my
bills.
Am I not getting it?
--- Ryan Fugger <rfu...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
Chris Wagner
> (maybe I should be the one to come up with the
> presentation for Knud since I have gotten so much
> first hand instruction -- I would be completely unable
> to relate to the technical aspects possibly of
> interest to a LUG however).
What if we made this interesting. If you make a decent presentation and/or
flyer, I'm willing to "pay" you -- oh, let's say, 0.1 silver ounces
via Ripple. Anyone else willing to give Alexis a little compensation for
that effort?
This would be for your service, of course, not the actual content.
I'm not a big fan of copyright. ;)
...Then we could continue to improve, as a community, the presentation and
whatever other content we come up with.
Chris
Chris Wagner
> Instead of competing for credits issued by the
> scorekeeping authority (ie, the bank) backed by credits granted by us
> to the authority, we just use credits that we all grant each other,
> straightaway, and cut out the authority altogether. It ought to be
> cheaper that way.
Would it not be a good idea to encourage people to use stable
"currencies" or "units of measure" for their Ripple transactions? Then
the benefits would be two-fold, in comparison to your average fiat
currency, as our unit of measurement wouldn't get distorted when, for
example, The Federal Reserve prints more money.
I suppose measurements in terms of silver or gold would be an ideal
place to start, but even those units are vulnerable to minor
fluctuations not determined by the market place as a whole (but by the
miners).
Actually, when I first began to read about Ripple, I assumed it would be
using its own, custom unit (e.g., "the Ripple"). I was actually a
little disappointed to see that it allowed transactions to be measured
in, e.g., U.S. Dollars. It would be interesting to see how a custom
unit would gradually evolve toward a certain value.
Regards,
Chris
Alexis Delevett
(*blush*) at
http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=d8v85k8_33fvfrzc59
I'm not necessarily interested in compensation except
for experimental purposes -- I think I have a
ripplepay account under adel...@yahoo.com. Maybe
there's someone with a technical understanding out
there who wants to add to the presentation project and
I would be happy to reroute the payments, of course
:-)
--- Chris Wagner <christophe...@gmail.com>
escribió:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Thomas Hartman
I'd just take the good karma and run :)
Thomas Hartman
I would try to come up with examples where ripple could plausibly be
used, and is being used, and not talk too much about the philosophy of
what is money. I realize it's a bit of a paradox -- if you can't get
them reflecting on the nature of money, why would they use something
like ripple in the first place? But that's my bias.
Current uses that I know of: some guy is using it it to help kids
trade marbles. (ryan told me.)
And some people are using it as a sort of open source alternative to billmonk.
Future uses? *Plausible* future uses?
This is where things get interesting.
Thomas Hartman
No such thing. The most you can shoot for, I guess, is *more* stable
currencies. And everybody has their own opinion on how to achieve
that.
There are even monetary philosophies that promote currencies that
explicitly decay in wealth over time -- to incentivize people to spend
and not hoard. (There's a name for this, I forget.)
So really I think the best you can do is promote *diversity* against
*centralization.*
More currencies is good, in a free market -- the good ones will get more users.
Hopefully stability will emerge somewhere out of the mix.
But I wouldn't worry too much about promoting any one specific
currency at this stage -- except of course for particular communities
that have an agenda, like community currencies, or goldbugs, or what
have you. But there won't be one single agenda everyone can agree on.
Chris Wagner
Thomas Hartman
http://www.kitco.com/charts/rhodium.html
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 4:43 PM, Chris Wagner
Chris Wagner
"stable currency" (perhaps I'm using the term incorrectly, but) I mean a
currency that is not distorted arbitrarily. Well, I guess we could
argue on that point, too, but I wouldn't consider value changes coming
about from natural fluctuations in the market, to be arbitrary.
Yes, more currencies is probably the way to go. Or at least the option
of them.
I suppose Ripple shouldn't get into the currency unit argument, and
should do what it does best. I will certainly push for people to use
currencies (in credit/debt measurements and in physical use) that aren't
centrally controlled, though. :)
Chris Wagner
I'm sure there's room for both kinds of presentations, but I would
definitely go with the more-general money theory intro, if for instance,
I were going to give an introduction to my friends.
The truth is, most people just haven't stepped back and asked, "what
makes the banks (or credit card companies) so special?".
Chris
Knud Soerensen
> Would it not be a good idea to encourage people to use stable
> "currencies" or "units of measure" for their Ripple transactions? Then
> the benefits would be two-fold, in comparison to your average fiat
> currency, as our unit of measurement wouldn't get distorted when, for
> example, The Federal Reserve prints more money.
>
> I suppose measurements in terms of silver or gold would be an ideal
> place to start, but even those units are vulnerable to minor
> fluctuations not determined by the market place as a whole (but by the
> miners).
>
Well, I think time is the ideal place to start,
because time is the most concrete unit of measure for work we have.
Also the same measurement of time is used all over the world.
Knud
Corey
I don't think it's any different from other currencies, maybe even worse because it's too much hassle to pin the value of someone's time. Whereas we all know what the value of the dollar, euro, pound, etc are instantly and you can use them for anything, not just payment for relatively simple work.
It's probably best to work as closely as we can with the existing system in order to minimize confusion, at this point anyway.
// Corey
Knud Soerensen
> The problem I have with that is everyone's time is valued differently.
> One person can do better yard work faster than someone else for example.
>
If I can make some yard work in 2 hours, and someone else can make the
work in 1 hour.
Then we can make a deal that he does the work for 1.5 hour in payment.
The payment will typical be between what I save and he uses.
> I don't think it's any different from other currencies, maybe even
> worse because it's too much hassle to pin the value of someone's time.
> Whereas we all know what the value of the dollar, euro, pound, etc are
> instantly and you can use them for anything, not just payment for
> relatively simple work.
The only reason that it is easy to pin the value in dollar, euro etc. is
because everyone uses them, if time was used instead it would be much
easier.
Try to guess what a pound of potatoes is worth in a city in Africa and
in a city in Florida?
If time was used I would bet that it would be around the same amount.
>
> It's probably best to work as closely as we can with the existing
> system in order to minimize confusion, at this point anyway.
>
> // Corey
>
Maybe, but people should be free to trade in time if they feel like it.
Knud
Chris Wagner
> Try to guess what a pound of potatoes is worth in a city in Africa and
> in a city in Florida?
>
> If time was used I would bet that it would be around the same amount.
This is a problem of not using a common currency... (Using the same
currency has pros and cons, but that's aside the point). It's a
problem of trying to get people to buy into a common system. If we all
used gold as money, then potatoes would be approximately the same price
in Africa as in Florida; if we all used U.S. Dollars, the same would be
true.
> > It's probably best to work as closely as we can with the existing
> > system in order to minimize confusion, at this point anyway.
> >
> > // Corey
> >
>
> Maybe, but people should be free to trade in time if they feel like it.
Yes, people should be free to do whatever they want, barring harming
someone else or his property. But now we're getting way off-topic!
Sorry!
Chris Wagner
demand. Like Corey says, everyone's time is valued differently.
As an example of why this won't work: If I were to get paid the same
amount of money no matter what job I have, then I wouldn't work as a
programmer; I'd opt for a much easier job, like being a security guard,
or anything that allows me to just spend half of my "work time" reading
a book, for instance. So, there'd be no incentive for people to spend
their paid-for hours doing anything "hard". Even though I may *like* to
program, I would opt to satisfy my desire for programming in my free
time.
I'm sorry for posting about the unit-of-measure/currency thing. Let's
try to draw this to a close before the topic gets unwieldy. We don't
want to overwhelm people with too much email from this "rippleusers"
mailing list, and cause them to leave (right?).
Chris
Knud Soerensen
> On Sat, 2008-03-29 at 23:41 +0100, Knud Soerensen wrote:
>
>> Try to guess what a pound of potatoes is worth in a city in Africa and
>> in a city in Florida?
>>
>> If time was used I would bet that it would be around the same amount.
>>
>
> This is a problem of not using a common currency... (Using the same
> currency has pros and cons, but that's aside the point). It's a
> problem of trying to get people to buy into a common system. If we all
> used gold as money, then potatoes would be approximately the same price
> in Africa as in Florida; if we all used U.S. Dollars, the same would be
> true.
>
>
The supply and demand for goods and supply and demand for the currency.
So, a place with lesser gold would be more expensive.
But both supply of time and demand for common goods scales with the
number of people, so we have fewer free variables and we get a simpler
system.
Knud
>
>
Knud Soerensen
> Exactly -- you can't use time because that breaks the law of supply and
> demand. Like Corey says, everyone's time is valued differently.
>
>
I know that time banking systems use the formula that 1 hour work= 1
hour pay, and with that it is true that supply and demand breaks down
and trading goods becomes difficult.
But that is not the type of system I am talking about here.
The price for goods and service is still priced by supply and demand,
but the supply and demand of the currency (time) scale with the number
of people.
> As an example of why this won't work: If I were to get paid the same
> amount of money no matter what job I have, then I wouldn't work as a
> programmer; I'd opt for a much easier job, like being a security guard,
> or anything that allows me to just spend half of my "work time" reading
> a book, for instance. So, there'd be no incentive for people to spend
> their paid-for hours doing anything "hard". Even though I may *like* to
> program, I would opt to satisfy my desire for programming in my free
> time.
>
>
This situation don't apply to the type of system I am talking about.
> I'm sorry for posting about the unit-of-measure/currency thing. Let's
> try to draw this to a close before the topic gets unwieldy. We don't
> want to overwhelm people with too much email from this "rippleusers"
> mailing list, and cause them to leave (right?).
>
> Chris
If we are going revolutionize the currency system,
this discussion is very relevant and rippleusers is very low traffic as
it is so i don't think that it is a problem.
Knud
Chris Wagner
The system that you describe seems to simply recycle a word. That is,
you're proposing assigning the words that we use for time measurements
to the currency unit.
If the currency unit of time has no relation to the amount of time
worked -- i.e., if someone can receive "1 hour of pay" for doing 1.5
hours of work -- then how is the currency related to time, other than by
name (e.g., "hour")?
Thomas Hartman
pegged to time. Ithaca HOURS comes to mind.
I think the currency issue will be clearer when (if!) there are more
real users transacting in these types of systems.
Knud Soerensen
> Knud,
>
> The system that you describe seems to simply recycle a word. That is,
> you're proposing assigning the words that we use for time measurements
> to the currency unit.
>
> If the currency unit of time has no relation to the amount of time
> worked -- i.e., if someone can receive "1 hour of pay" for doing 1.5
> hours of work -- then how is the currency related to time, other than by
> name (e.g., "hour")?
>
not the other way around :-) That would be a bad deal or a really fun job.
When using time as a currency it is really hard to devalue the currency
as it happens with the dollar.
So, the base for making the deal is always the same
and inflation is eliminated.
The idea with time is a currency is very helpful in LETSystems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Exchange_Trading_Systems
LETSystems is community credit systems where everyone
have unlimited credit in theory, but the balance on your account
is visible to everybody in the community.
Some LETS use ordinary currency as currency
but here it can be a problem with inflated prices
due to the unlimited credit.
And it here it can be a advantages to use time as a currency.
Knud
Jevgenij Solovjov
idea. So, thanks Alexis and everybody else doing that.
After taking a look at the work in progress, I would like to make a
"commonsense" comment about the ultimate form of the presentation. So:
when the contents of the slides is decided, and before showing it to
public, it would be great to make it more "presentee-friendly".
To be more specific, the targeted audience will not like to read much.
It rather would like seeing certain pictures, or bulleted lists, with
5-, at most 10-word attached statements, combined with pleasant colour
scheme (I like the current background :) ).
Thanks once again,
Jevgenij