Wowza, Red5 relationship?
jez
today, and it feels a lot like Red5 (the Windows startup wrapper exe,
the conf directory, the notion of applications, etc.) Was Wowza
originally a fork of Red5, or is it total coincidence that they feel
so similar?
Best regards,
Jeremy Morton (Jez)
Sebastian Wagner
when you look deeper you will encounter that they also use apache mina
as their basic engine. You can read that when you read the log or
exceptions that are thrown.
I don't know if that is an indicator that they got inspired by red5.
Maybe Apache Mina is just a great project and way to start.
Sebastian
2010/3/11 jez <jez...@gmail.com>:
--
Sebastian Wagner
http://www.webbase-design.de
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
http://www.laszlo-forum.de
seba....@gmail.com
Dominick Accattato
Octavian Naicu
With all due respect, Red5 is far behind in documentation, support, features. The only great thing about Red5 is that its 1) free and 2) open source (which means I can easily find the revision where a bug was introduced).
Wowza is closer to FMIS than it is to Red5 and has some useful additions: there are native classes for AMF data, there is a different way of handling net streams, the shared objets are xml files with the data encrypted, the way instances work is closer to FMIS, the main server side functions (onAppStart) and folder structure are also closer to FMIS. There are also a lof of licenses available including a hosted-on-Amazon-EC2-version which beats the hell out of FMIS pricing.
Wowza was started by 2 former Adobe employees.
Andy Shaules
Dominick Accattato
jez
think it time for me to go the way of Wowza, because I need to be able
to stream to the iPhone. They have really pulled out the stops to
implement Apple's HTTP Live Streaming. Maybe Red5 should one day
consider expanding beyond RTMP... until then, I'm going to be porting
my app over to Wowza, I think. I just find the similarities between
Wowza and Red5 uncanny. If it isn't a fork of Red5, it sure as hell
was inspired by it.
Best regards,
Jeremy Morton (Jez)
On Mar 12, 7:47 pm, Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that ease of use is definitely in the eye of the beholder here.
> You've failed to mention all the great things provided by Red5 like step
> through debugging, using an OOP language, Red5Plugin, the new plugin
> architecture (I can probably go on and on here). In addition, Red5 has been
> a first on a number of features. We existed before Wowza. We had initial
> Xuggle support. We have proven AS3 support at a few conferences (still in
> incubation). We had proven Terracotta could be integrated (although lacking
> now). We had AMF3 support before FMS. If you want support, ask us over at
> Infrared5. While we haven't quite gotten the message right with Red5, we are
> working on it. I'm not knocking any other server as I also develop on FMS,
> but I would say that Red5 is easiest (again, I speak for myself).
>
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Octavian Naicu <naicuoctav...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Actually I've developed apps for FMIS, Red5 and Wowza and the easiest to
> > work with is FMIS followed closely by Wowza.
>
> > With all due respect, Red5 is far behind in documentation, support,
> > features. The only great thing about Red5 is that its 1) free and 2) open
> > source (which means I can easily find the revision where a bug was
> > introduced).
>
> > Wowza is closer to FMIS than it is to Red5 and has some useful additions:
> > there are native classes for AMF data, there is a different way of handling
> > net streams, the shared objets are xml files with the data encrypted, the
> > way instances work is closer to FMIS, the main server side functions
> > (onAppStart) and folder structure are also closer to FMIS. There are also a
> > lof of licenses available including a hosted-on-Amazon-EC2-version which
> > beats the hell out of FMIS pricing.
>
> > Wowza was started by 2 former Adobe employees.
>
> > 2010/3/11 Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com>
>
> > I was told that Wowza used to be written in c++. Not sure though. I would
> >> hope it was inspired as that would show the impact Red5 has had on the list
> >> of servers out there. There are a few others that were inspired by Red5 as
> >> well. That said, we have never received any acknowledgment from their team.
> >> As always, Red5 rox!
>
> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wag...@gmail.com
> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> yeah there are a lot of similarities.
>
> >>> when you look deeper you will encounter that they also use apache mina
> >>> as their basic engine. You can read that when you read the log or
> >>> exceptions that are thrown.
>
> >>> I don't know if that is an indicator that they got inspired by red5.
> >>> Maybe Apache Mina is just a great project and way to start.
>
> >>> Sebastian
>
> >>> 2010/3/11 jez <jez9...@gmail.com>:
> >>> > Just out of interest here: I installed a developer edition of Wowza 2
> >>> > today, and it feels a lot like Red5 (the Windows startup wrapper exe,
> >>> > the conf directory, the notion of applications, etc.) Was Wowza
> >>> > originally a fork of Red5, or is it total coincidence that they feel
> >>> > so similar?
>
> >>> > Best regards,
> >>> > Jeremy Morton (Jez)
>
> >>> --
> >>> Sebastian Wagner
> >>>http://www.webbase-design.de
> >>>http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
> >>>http://www.laszlo-forum.de
> >>> seba.wag...@gmail.com
Ignacio Lopez
Dominick, do you think you can comment on the short and mid term red5 roadmap?
I am not asking about specific dates for releases or detailed lists of
features, just a best guess on things that the red5 core devs are
focusing right now.
Thanks very much
2010/3/12, Dominick Accattato <dacca...@gmail.com>:
Dominick Accattato
Tiago Jacobs
Community, open source means that you can:
-> Modify the code
-> Pay someone to modify the code
Everyone wins... Stop crying that "that opensource software dont have the feature X" and start supporting that features....
tom
coz they dont know that it works like that (or can) - if open source needs marketing/
regs tom
tom
jez
already have Apple's HTTP Live Streaming implemented. We simply don't
have the time to wait for you guys to implement that (even if we did,
could you do it for less than $1000, the cost of a Wowza licence?)
Idealogically, I'd rather get the feature into Red5, but
realistically, Wowza is the better choice. Maybe Infrared5 should
implement stuff in Red5 pre-emptively. Copy Wowza's feature set, for
a start.
Best regards,
Jeremy Morton (Jez)
On Mar 13, 10:54 pm, Tiago Jacobs <ti...@imdt.com.br> wrote:
> I dont understand why people pays for Wowza license instead of asking us
> (iMDT / infrared5 / any other company that offer red5 support) to
> develop a special feature on red5.... If each people pay something for
> red5, we would be able to put more time on that and make a much better
> red5....
>
> Community, open source means that you can:
> -> Modify the code
> -> Pay someone to modify the code
>
> Everyone wins... Stop crying that "that opensource software dont have
> the feature X" and start supporting that features....
>
> On 3/12/2010 6:53 PM, Dominick Accattato wrote:
>
> > Thanks Ignacio. I did a roadmap a long time ago. I'll get on top of
> > that for the community. Thanks again for the support!
>
> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Ignacio Lopez
> > <ignacio.lo...@gmail.com <mailto:ignacio.lo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > Red5 rocks!
> > Dominick, do you think you can comment on the short and mid term
> > red5 roadmap?
> > I am not asking about specific dates for releases or detailed lists of
> > features, just a best guess on things that the red5 core devs are
> > focusing right now.
>
> > Thanks very much
>
> > 2010/3/12, Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:daccatt...@gmail.com>>:
> > > I think that ease of use is definitely in the eye of the
> > beholder here.
> > > You've failed to mention all the great things provided by Red5
> > like step
> > > through debugging, using an OOP language, Red5Plugin, the new plugin
> > > architecture (I can probably go on and on here). In addition,
> > Red5 has been
> > > a first on a number of features. We existed before Wowza. We had
> > initial
> > > Xuggle support. We have proven AS3 support at a few conferences
> > (still in
> > > incubation). We had proven Terracotta could be integrated
> > (although lacking
> > > now). We had AMF3 support before FMS. If you want support, ask
> > us over at
> > > Infrared5. While we haven't quite gotten the message right with
> > Red5, we are
> > > working on it. I'm not knocking any other server as I also
> > develop on FMS,
> > > but I would say that Red5 is easiest (again, I speak for myself).
>
> > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Octavian Naicu
> > > <naicuoctav...@gmail.com <mailto:naicuoctav...@gmail.com>>wrote:
>
> > >> Actually I've developed apps for FMIS, Red5 and Wowza and the
> > easiest to
> > >> work with is FMIS followed closely by Wowza.
>
> > >> With all due respect, Red5 is far behind in documentation, support,
> > >> features. The only great thing about Red5 is that its 1) free
> > and 2) open
> > >> source (which means I can easily find the revision where a bug was
> > >> introduced).
>
> > >> Wowza is closer to FMIS than it is to Red5 and has some useful
> > additions:
> > >> there are native classes for AMF data, there is a different way of
> > >> handling
> > >> net streams, the shared objets are xml files with the data
> > encrypted, the
> > >> way instances work is closer to FMIS, the main server side
> > functions
> > >> (onAppStart) and folder structure are also closer to FMIS.
> > There are also
> > >> a
> > >> lof of licenses available including a
> > hosted-on-Amazon-EC2-version which
> > >> beats the hell out of FMIS pricing.
>
> > >> Wowza was started by 2 former Adobe employees.
>
> > >> 2010/3/11 Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:daccatt...@gmail.com>>
>
> > >> I was told that Wowza used to be written in c++. Not sure
> > though. I would
> > >>> hope it was inspired as that would show the impact Red5 has
> > had on the
> > >>> list
> > >>> of servers out there. There are a few others that were
> > inspired by Red5
> > >>> as
> > >>> well. That said, we have never received any acknowledgment
> > from their
> > >>> team.
> > >>> As always, Red5 rox!
>
> > >>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sebastian Wagner
> > <seba.wag...@gmail.com <mailto:seba.wag...@gmail.com>
> > >>> > wrote:
>
> > >>>> yeah there are a lot of similarities.
>
> > >>>> when you look deeper you will encounter that they also use
> > apache mina
> > >>>> as their basic engine. You can read that when you read the log or
> > >>>> exceptions that are thrown.
>
> > >>>> I don't know if that is an indicator that they got inspired
> > by red5.
> > >>>> Maybe Apache Mina is just a great project and way to start.
>
> > >>>> Sebastian
>
> > >>>> 2010/3/11 jez <jez9...@gmail.com <mailto:jez9...@gmail.com>>:
> > >>>> > Just out of interest here: I installed a developer edition
> > of Wowza 2
> > >>>> > today, and it feels a lot like Red5 (the Windows startup
> > wrapper exe,
> > >>>> > the conf directory, the notion of applications, etc.) Was
> > Wowza
> > >>>> > originally a fork of Red5, or is it total coincidence that
> > they feel
> > >>>> > so similar?
>
> > >>>> > Best regards,
> > >>>> > Jeremy Morton (Jez)
>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Sebastian Wagner
> > >>>>http://www.webbase-design.de
> > >>>>http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
> > >>>>http://www.laszlo-forum.de
> > >>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com <mailto:seba.wag...@gmail.com>
Jake Hilton
Jake
Tiago Jacobs
Its sad to read messages like this, considering that the whole red5 is pre-emptively...
Lets take these messages as improvement tips.
Tiago
Tiago Jacobs
We will be adding a commercial support links on red5 site.
Tiago
SeTyR
(live, vod , with scrubbing ) + live publishing compatible with ..
say .. wirecast ? (or any other legal alternative to fme ..) ; Maybe
the real ones interrested can group together and scaff the amount
"needed"
Hope i won't be thrown again for pointing out vital "small problems".
I don't mind paying for extra stuff, especially in an open source
environement (some on this group already got money from me, and it
worked great) but there has been issues lately that don't incentive
red5 's use in the integrators/installators/ambassadors/early-or-less-
adopters community .. too much risks, too much unsolved small problems
adding up making it more and more unrelayable, at least
psycologically)
Try to settle all the problems down first, freeze devlopment of new
stuff and have the actuals fonctionalities nailed and 100% errorfree
People will then start advertising it again for sure (and i'll be the
first one)
Thx again for reading
On Mar 15, 5:51 am, Tiago Jacobs <ti...@imdt.com.br> wrote:
> Good point...
> We will be adding a commercial support links on red5 site.
>
> Tiago
>
> Em 3/13/2010 8:14 PM, tom escreveu:
>
>
>
> > coz they dont know that it works like that (or can) - if open source
> > needs marketing/
>
> > regs tom
>
> > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Tiago Jacobs <ti...@imdt.com.br
> > <mailto:ti...@imdt.com.br>> wrote:
>
> > I dont understand why people pays for Wowza license instead of
> > asking us (iMDT / infrared5 / any other company that offer red5
> > support) to develop a special feature on red5.... If each people
> > pay something for red5, we would be able to put more time on that
> > and make a much better red5....
>
> > Community, open source means that you can:
> > -> Modify the code
> > -> Pay someone to modify the code
>
> > Everyone wins... Stop crying that "that opensource software dont
> > have the feature X" and start supporting that features....
>
> > On 3/12/2010 6:53 PM, Dominick Accattato wrote:
> >> Thanks Ignacio. I did a roadmap a long time ago. I'll get on top
> >> of that for the community. Thanks again for the support!
>
> >> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Ignacio Lopez
> >> <ignacio.lo...@gmail.com <mailto:ignacio.lo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >> Red5 rocks!
> >> Dominick, do you think you can comment on the short and mid
> >> term red5 roadmap?
> >> I am not asking about specific dates for releases or detailed
> >> lists of
> >> features, just a best guess on things that the red5 core devs are
> >> focusing right now.
>
> >> Thanks very much
>
> >> 2010/3/12, Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:daccatt...@gmail.com>>:
> >> > I think that ease of use is definitely in the eye of the
> >> beholder here.
> >> > You've failed to mention all the great things provided by
> >> Red5 like step
> >> > through debugging, using an OOP language, Red5Plugin, the
> >> new plugin
> >> > architecture (I can probably go on and on here). In
> >> addition, Red5 has been
> >> > a first on a number of features. We existed before Wowza.
> >> We had initial
> >> > Xuggle support. We have proven AS3 support at a few
> >> conferences (still in
> >> > incubation). We had proven Terracotta could be integrated
> >> (although lacking
> >> > now). We had AMF3 support before FMS. If you want support,
> >> ask us over at
> >> > Infrared5. While we haven't quite gotten the message right
> >> with Red5, we are
> >> > working on it. I'm not knocking any other server as I also
> >> develop on FMS,
> >> > but I would say that Red5 is easiest (again, I speak for
> >> myself).
>
> >> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Octavian Naicu
> >> > <naicuoctav...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:naicuoctav...@gmail.com>>wrote:
> >> >> 2010/3/11 Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:daccatt...@gmail.com>>
>
> >> >> I was told that Wowza used to be written in c++. Not sure
> >> though. I would
> >> >>> hope it was inspired as that would show the impact Red5
> >> has had on the
> >> >>> list
> >> >>> of servers out there. There are a few others that were
> >> inspired by Red5
> >> >>> as
> >> >>> well. That said, we have never received any
> >> acknowledgment from their
> >> >>> team.
> >> >>> As always, Red5 rox!
>
> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sebastian Wagner
> >> <seba.wag...@gmail.com <mailto:seba.wag...@gmail.com>
> >> >>> > wrote:
>
> >> >>>> yeah there are a lot of similarities.
>
> >> >>>> when you look deeper you will encounter that they also
> >> use apache mina
> >> >>>> as their basic engine. You can read that when you read
> >> the log or
> >> >>>> exceptions that are thrown.
>
> >> >>>> I don't know if that is an indicator that they got
> >> inspired by red5.
> >> >>>> Maybe Apache Mina is just a great project and way to start.
>
> >> >>>> Sebastian
>
> >> >>>> 2010/3/11 jez <jez9...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:jez9...@gmail.com>>:
> >> >>>> > Just out of interest here: I installed a developer
> >> edition of Wowza 2
> >> >>>> > today, and it feels a lot like Red5 (the Windows
> >> startup wrapper exe,
> >> >>>> > the conf directory, the notion of applications, etc.)
> >> Was Wowza
> >> >>>> > originally a fork of Red5, or is it total coincidence
> >> that they feel
> >> >>>> > so similar?
>
> >> >>>> > Best regards,
> >> >>>> > Jeremy Morton (Jez)
>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> Sebastian Wagner
> >> >>>>http://www.webbase-design.de
> >> >>>>http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
> >> >>>>http://www.laszlo-forum.de
> >> >>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com <mailto:seba.wag...@gmail.com>
Dominic Williams
ddprasad
regular users would like to have the features that he is mentioning.
We should appreciate Red5 for the work they are doing. It may be
possible that WOWZA & FMS have better/extra features but they come
after paying a price (good amount). Compared to those items, what Red5
is offering is more for no price at all. What more, the source is
open, do it what ever you like. It is upto the users.
We should not blame developers or try to demoralize the product for
what it delivers.
Thanx.
On Mar 15, 3:02 pm, Dominic Williams <dwilli...@system7.co.uk> wrote:
> IMHO Red5 offers broadly similar functionality, and can be extended just as
> easily - or perhaps more easily in more complex projects, because you have
> access to the source - but where it really falls down is the lack of
> documentation. The project is quite impenetrable and a lot of people just
> balk at trying to get to grips with it.
>
> The main problem with the documentation is that it is not well structured
> enough for people to easily find what they are looking for, and the good
> stuff is mixed up with the bad stuff.
>
> Personally, I would scrap the existing Red5 site and restart with something
> more focused. A great example of how to promote an open source project is
> offered by the Cassandra database which I have been working with a lot
> recently (http://cassandra.apache.org/). Within a Red5 site like that, I
> would reorganize supporting documentation channel as follows:
>
> The first chapter "Getting Started" (and when I say "chapter", I really mean
> section within this channel) should start with walkthroughs showing how to
> get the system up and running quickly, for example like Dominik Accattato's
> videoshttp://www.youtube.com/user/dominickaccattato
>
> The next chapter should consist of a comprehensive set of tutorial examples,
> each accompanied by a downloadable project that can be used as the start of
> a new project.
>
> The next chapter should cover different areas in more detail, such as scopes
> etc, which will assist people develop the projects they forked off the
> tutorials. This information can be pulled from the existing reference
> material but should also contain links to high quality offsite articles.
>
> i.e. Getting Started -- New Project Template -- Detailed Development Info
>
> By presenting these 3 simple steps well Red5 could start to fly.
>
> On 12 March 2010 17:59, Octavian Naicu <naicuoctav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually I've developed apps for FMIS, Red5 and Wowza and the easiest to
> > work with is FMIS followed closely by Wowza.
>
> > With all due respect, Red5 is far behind in documentation, support,
> > features. The only great thing about Red5 is that its 1) free and 2) open
> > source (which means I can easily find the revision where a bug was
> > introduced).
>
> > Wowza is closer to FMIS than it is to Red5 and has some useful additions:
> > there are native classes for AMF data, there is a different way of handling
> > net streams, the shared objets are xml files with the data encrypted, the
> > way instances work is closer to FMIS, the main server side functions
> > (onAppStart) and folder structure are also closer to FMIS. There are also a
> > lof of licenses available including a hosted-on-Amazon-EC2-version which
> > beats the hell out of FMIS pricing.
>
> > Wowza was started by 2 former Adobe employees.
>
> > 2010/3/11 Dominick Accattato <daccatt...@gmail.com>
>
> >> I was told that Wowza used to be written in c++. Not sure though. I would
> >> hope it was inspired as that would show the impact Red5 has had on the list
> >> of servers out there. There are a few others that were inspired by Red5 as
> >> well. That said, we have never received any acknowledgment from their team.
> >> As always, Red5 rox!
>
> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wag...@gmail.com
> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> yeah there are a lot of similarities.
>
> >>> when you look deeper you will encounter that they also use apache mina
> >>> as their basic engine. You can read that when you read the log or
> >>> exceptions that are thrown.
>
> >>> I don't know if that is an indicator that they got inspired by red5.
> >>> Maybe Apache Mina is just a great project and way to start.
>
> >>> Sebastian
>
> >>> 2010/3/11 jez <jez9...@gmail.com>:
> >>> > Just out of interest here: I installed a developer edition of Wowza 2
> >>> > today, and it feels a lot like Red5 (the Windows startup wrapper exe,
> >>> > the conf directory, the notion of applications, etc.) Was Wowza
> >>> > originally a fork of Red5, or is it total coincidence that they feel
> >>> > so similar?
>
> >>> > Best regards,
> >>> > Jeremy Morton (Jez)
>
> >>> --
> >>> Sebastian Wagner
> >>>http://www.webbase-design.de
> >>>http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
> >>>http://www.laszlo-forum.de
> >>> seba.wag...@gmail.com
Ignacio Lopez
get a rock solid 1.0 version would be a good idea.
There are a lot of features with breaking changes from one version to
another....
Maybe thats what the team is doing but I can t tell for sure....i
tried to look at trac to see if i could see the roadmap there but i am
not sure how active or accurate it is.
2010/3/15, ddprasad <ddpr...@gmail.com>:
Sebastian Wagner
Red5 Consultant and Certified Red5 Companies.
That should be listed on the Red5 Page as *Certified Red5 Partner*. If
that is successful you can start in dividing that into Platin, Gold,
Silver Status Partners
It seems to be a way of developing an Open Source project without the
need for a *enterprise* version. The Red5 Partner Network then hires
and pays Red5 Developers or they give some kind of compensation by
every Job they get through the Partner Network.
The benefit for partners is:
1) Normally you only give partner status to 2-3 persons per region, so
those people have kind of *No 1* Status in their region.
2) They have exclusive access and contact to trigger devs to fix
critical Issues and in that way a advantage beyond non-partners
The benefit for the Core Team:
1) Well of course they get at least some compensation
2) A Partner Network basically is a Business Network, so their natural
interest is bringing marketing and growth also outside of the *geek -
world* where actually Red5 is quite well known now.
The benefit for the hole Community is:
1) Established Support Team available, proof that Bugs and Issues can be solved
2) Proof that Bugs and Issues will be solved also for future version
as the Partners will sign Support contracts about 1,2,3 years with
their customers and therefore will have to guarantee that it will work
and Bugs are fixed within a akzeptable time
Sebastian
2010/3/15 Ignacio Lopez <ignaci...@gmail.com>:
Gavriloaie Eugen-Andrei
I think people should give the developers a break. This is an open source project and (as far as I understood) there is a payed support for it too. So, why don't you put your money to a good use?
Does anybody from the guys "giving advices" knows how hard is to maintain such a project?
Do they know how disappointing is to see people bragging about "Hey wowza is better!?" on this mailing list!?
Do you have any idea how much damage and how much good stuff are you doing by "giving advices"?
Are you absolutely sure that the developers didn't knew about the bugs in red5? I'm sure that a decent bug report/feature request will suffice, rather than providing comparisons between other servers.
Bottom line... pointing out flaws is excellent. Saying that xxxx server is better than this one, is not ok. Why are you here if you consider that!?
red5 team, don't listen to them. Do your job as usual because you are doing great. I was supporting red5 for at least 4 years (at least morally), and I'm pretty sure that other servers (that I don't want to mention) were "borrowing" code without a single sincere "thank you note".
OPEN SOURCE PROJECTS == PEOPLE
Keep the people happy, and you have quality!
Cheers,
Andrei
jez
Red5 devs have given us with Red5. I was just explaining why,
unfortunately, I'm forced to go with Wowza now, and suggesting
something that might help Red5.
Best regards,
Jeremy Morton (Jez)
On Mar 15, 12:06 pm, Gavriloaie Eugen-Andrei <crtmpser...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello list,
>
> I think people should give the developers a break. This is an open source project and (as far as I understood) there is a payed support for it too. So, why don't you put your money to a good use?
>
> Does anybody from the guys "giving advices" knows how hard is to maintain such a project?
> Do they know how disappointing is to see people bragging about "Hey wowza is better!?" on this mailing list!?
> Do you have any idea how much damage and how much good stuff are you doing by "giving advices"?
> Are you absolutely sure that the developers didn't knew about the bugs in red5? I'm sure that a decent bug report/feature request will suffice, rather than providing comparisons between other servers.
>
> Bottom line... pointing out flaws is excellent. Saying that xxxx server is better than this one, is not ok. Why are you here if you consider that!?
>
> red5 team, don't listen to them. Do your job as usual because you are doing great. I was supporting red5 for at least 4 years (at least morally), and I'm pretty sure that other servers (that I don't want to mention) were "borrowing" code without a single sincere "thank you note".
>
> OPEN SOURCE PROJECTS == PEOPLE
>
> Keep the people happy, and you have quality!
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
> On Mar 15, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Ignacio Lopez wrote:
>
> > I agree that maybe freezing features and nailing 95 % of the issues to
> > get a rock solid 1.0 version would be a good idea.
> > There are a lot of features with breaking changes from one version to
> > another....
> > Maybe thats what the team is doing but I can t tell for sure....i
> > tried to look at trac to see if i could see the roadmap there but i am
> > not sure how active or accurate it is.
>
> > 2010/3/15, ddprasad <ddpra...@gmail.com>:
SeTyR
i told Tiago in a mail i sent him this morning
I've been supporting Red5 for 2.5 years now, nearly three.. and
develloping a worldwide certified partner network is the way to go
imo (after a freeze/moratory on the actual main bugs (live,
scrubing ..) :)
> 2010/3/15 Ignacio Lopez <ignacio.lo...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
> > I agree that maybe freezing features and nailing 95 % of the issues to
> > get a rock solid 1.0 version would be a good idea.
> > There are a lot of features with breaking changes from one version to
> > another....
> > Maybe thats what the team is doing but I can t tell for sure....i
> > tried to look at trac to see if i could see the roadmap there but i am
> > not sure how active or accurate it is.
>
> > 2010/3/15, ddprasad <ddpra...@gmail.com>:
Andy Shaules
service did exist? =p
jez
- Jez
Andy Shaules
Thomas
red5 apps, and a lot of questions to this ML were unanswered which was
frustrating.
After porting the apps to Wowza, I had no glitches, and every single
question I asked on their forums was answered within 20 minutes.
Moreover I had problems in Red5 in restarting the server and the
famous "address not available", which is terribly painful, and the
"too long handshake" which I never see in Wowza.
The bug about custom methods not being triggered anymore remotely that
appearead somewhere in 0.9 was the "coup de grâce".
I was wasting some substantial amount of time because of these little
troubles, and it was costing me more than the $1000 asked for Wowza.
Actually I prefer Red5's documentation... once you know where to find it.
And I also think that Wowza was largely inspired by Red5 due to some
coincidences, they simply took it to the next level.
I remember in 2006 when people used to take down Wowza, because they
would refuse to pay for it when Red5 was available for free, and look
where they are now.
Cheers,
ngocdaothanh
> today, and it feels a lot like Red5 (the Windows startup wrapper exe,
> the conf directory, the notion of applications, etc.) Was Wowza
> originally a fork of Red5, or is it total coincidence that they feel
> so similar?
I think this is a big FEATURE of Wowza, to steal users from Red5.
Knowing your competitors is always a must. Red5 has another
competitor:
http://erlyvideo.org/
Ignacio Lopez
2010/3/12, Dominick Accattato <dacca...@gmail.com>:
rightfoot
>I dont understand why people pays for Wowza license instead of asking us
>(iMDT / infrared5 / any other company that offer red5 support) to
>develop a special feature on red5.... If each people pay something for
>red5, we would be able to put more time on that and make a much better
That's an interesting thought which for some reason, we never considered
either.
I'm on these forums because I'm trying to figure out why I need wowza over
red5 and for many reasons, haven't been able to figure that out. So here is
a copy of what I posted on wowza earlier.
---
How to decide? wowza or red5?
The site to be integrated with will be joomla. There are a few solutions
which use either wowza or red5.
I've read comparisons that say wowza is more stable but on the other hand, I
can't say I've ever suffered performance problems using rh products which I
wasn't able to solve.
My requirements include chat in text and video, video conferencing, and I
have a few live video channels which need to be streamed in real time.
The economy dictates that I be very careful with our dollars but I also want
to make sure we don't suffer problems. I cannot seem to find enough reasons
to spend a grand on wowza right off the bat if red5 can do the same things.
There also seem to be a lot of other servers out there.
Since I'm new to this whole platform of using a media server, I'm not
exactly sure what I'm looking for other than the above so how can I make
these decisions?
Thanks for any input you can offer.
---
So the main requirements are integration into joomla since those are the CMS
that we are using. There are several addons which we have been looking at
such as;
http://avchat.net/ or http://www.videowhisper.com/ for examples. Both have
what we need, text, video chat, one has a roulette thing which would be
perfect for our social/leisure side but we also have a more professional
side as well.
Based on your input, is this something that could be done for the cost of
wowza or less?
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31243180.html
Sent from the Red5 - Interest/Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Mondain
rightfoot
After spending time with red5, I can see that newbies aren't welcome. You
either need to be heavy into development to give them something or they
could care less about you wanting to use the product.
Been around the block long enough to know almost instantly how things will
go with certain projects, that's my take on this one. Off to spend my money
on wowza I guess.
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31277610.html
Trevor Burton
It would also show that Red5 constantly invites people to contribute their time and effort to the project and consistently very very few people respond
People are very happy to take something for free and then complain when it doesn't give them exactly what they want.
It sounds to me like Wowza is a much better fit for you than Red5 as Red5 does indeed need a level of investment of time and energy.
None of the core team have time to devote to setting up for paid support, Wowza have paid support, so that's great
Red5 has been around for years, despite being difficult to use, i'd be interested to know which open source projects you contribute your time and energy to and how they're going?
T
Andy Shaules
The red5 world is not interested in teaching people what java is, or why
there is a folder called 'WEB-INF'
Neither is wowza, but they will take your money and charge you for the
lessons.
Andy
Dominick Accattato
Dominick Accattato
rightfoot
I don't think it's a shame, it's basically what the welcome feels like in the
list. The fact alone that no one wants to move to modern forums shows that
no one is interested in new blood, that the preferred feeling is to keep it
complicated and accessible only to those who will contribute back in ways
that the others can take advantage of. In other words, not interested in
users, only devs who give us something back.
Seen it countless times, can smell it upon arrival and the few days alone
already spent with red5 tells the entire story. Of course, now everyone will
come out of the woodwork telling me how wrong I am and that's fine, you can
do that but the history of the posts from the majority of others on the net
clearly show I'm not alone in thinking this. The difference is, I took the
time to investigate and to find out for myself, not wanting to make
decisions based on what I read alone.
Not worth the time or effort. I see no problem with paying wowza for their
invested time and everything they put out for this project including a hell
of a lot of documentation.
I quickly do not get the sense that many in the list care to help others
even for money. From what I can tell, the thinking is, keep it complicated
so that the small group of people who know this well can keep it for
themselves. After all, the more people that know it, the less billing hours
that will come right. That's my take on it, right or wrong, been through all
of the BS arguments countless times to care.
Anyhow, silly to argue let alone reply to me when those on this project
should really be talking to each other about this and the projects future.
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31279592.html
Andy Shaules
far more than you need.
Wowza is the better choice for you. Just like JWPlayer or Flow will also be
your client of choice. Nothing wrong with that.
But dont come to the car lot looking to drive away in a full-featured gas
guzzler without a drivers license. When we say red5 is easy to use and
setup, as well as program clients to connect, it is, BUT without java tool
kit, flash tool kit, or the ambition to get them on your own, we cant help
you.
Yes red5 is great for what you need. It has a steering wheel and gear
shifter, and paint job.
I think you need a full consultant session to get a handle on what is under
the hood, or spend some time with basic java tutorials. I went from knowing
jack-shit about java to being fully booked as a java conusltant.
We know its a hard server to set up without java knowledge, and maybe you
only read posts from java people who say it's easy. My first day with red5
was worse than this...
----- Original Message -----
From: "rightfoot" <for...@logicore.net>
To: <red5in...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Red5] Wowza, Red5 relationship?
>
John Grden
As for the one comment about keeping Red5 proprietary and difficult, that's nonsense. Yes, it's complex, but non of us has time to be that crafty, nor does any of us have a desire to be that way. Simply put - we don't have the time and resources to do the documentation that wowza has - that's why they charge money. If you like what they have, then please don't feel that you need to come over here and harp on us. To be upset with us for not fitting your level of help and support - given that you're saving thousands of dollars - is hardly fair and responsible.
There's plenty of information out there on Red5, there are companies devoted to supporting Red5 solutions and applications (infrared5.com for one) and any of them are more than happy to help you out on the same level that Wowza is - just without the licensing fees for the server :)
John
Chris Allen
rightfoot
>I'm not here to argue your points - but I am going to point out that *you*
>are the common thread throughout your experiences with these other projects
>that exude the same "behavior" you perceive. While we are forced to
Yes, you're right, I'm the only one coming across like this right now but
then, I'm also the only one posting about this right now. I bet if I posted
the same question in other project forums that many would chime in and it
would get ugly. I just happen to be telling it like it is and I do apologize
for having gone down this road. I guess I could simply walk away and not
defend my actions but then there's really no feedback is there.
>it'd be foolish for you to ignore your role in the relationship. So while
we
>constantly strive to become better, maybe you should consider how you can
>better approach projects in general?
Of course it would but part of that role is also to give feedback and that's
what I've done. Of course I would become the outcast and that's fine.
Sometimes, you just have to tell it like it is. Instead of arguing with me
and my view on how things 'appear' to me, maybe there should be a thread
started amongst red5 users to see if some things need to change. Maybe they
do.
I love redhat, I've pushed open source and Linux since the early 90's and
continue to do so. I move anyone and everything I possibly can to Linux.
Even if I cannot contribute by being proficient at red5 or any other
project, just having a good basic understanding is all I need to sell people
on moving their stuff to open source and getting them to buy into support.
It frustrates me to no end when people say you need to learn it, it's
complicated. Sorry, can't be a pro at everything I touch but if I can get a
base on it, then I can pass that knowledge on and others will become
involved and possibly even contribute thanks to my originally selling them
on it.
>As for the one comment about keeping Red5 proprietary and difficult, that's
>nonsense. Yes, it's complex, but non of us has time to be that crafty, nor
Call it that if you will but I've seen it countless times. Maybe that's not
the case but it happens a lot. Folks love to keep things complicated so that
the bucks flow to fewer people Come on, you can't tell me that doesn't
happen. What's crafty about not helping people who need more help than
others? It's simple economics. Spend your time helping those who will help
you back. Problem is, that closes the door on plenty of other opportunities.
>Simply put - we don't have the time and resources to do the documentation
>that wowza has - that's why they charge money.
I read several threads where folks wanted to try getting a handle on
documentation. There are always people out there willing to do that sort of
thing.
Heck, I can even imagine someone coming to the project, asking for help,
getting it and in return maybe asking their wife the technical writer to
help pull documentation together. But I guess that starts by not scaring
away all the newbies with 'it's complicated'.
>If you like what they have, then please don't feel that you need to come
>over here and harp on us. To be upset with us for not fitting your level
>of help and support - given that you're saving thousands of dollars -
>is hardly fair and responsible.
What I like is that they don't say 'it's complicated', they say we'll help
you the whole way in what ever way possible, right off the bat. Sure they
are asking for a grand but as I said in this thread, I'd have been happy to
spend some, if not all of that money here, on someone who is with red5
because I would prefer using this project over an encrypted source one. I'm
far from upset, I'm just sad that what I read about red5 ended up
manifesting itself just as I read.
>There's plenty of information out there on Red5, there are companies
devoted
>to supporting Red5 solutions and applications (infrared5.com for one) and
>any of them are more than happy to help you out on the same level that
Wowza
>is - just without the licensing fees for the server :)
Well John, I just want to reiterate that I do apologize for coming across as
anything but honest and offering my input, thoughts on how things felt for
me. It's not an accusation to anyone, it's just my impression. I usually
give projects a chance regardless of what I read and I did. The fact that
I'm walking away with certain feelings about red5 should not be held against
me personally. I could have simply walked away then agreed with bunches of
people in other forums but instead, took the time to explain myself here.
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31280975.html
Chris Allen
If you could point me to the other project forums where people are complaining about the same thing as you, that would be extremely helpful.
Once again thanks and best of luck with your project; I hope it goes well for you.
-Chris
rightfoot
You're making a lot of assumptions but that's ok, maybe a fully open source
project is too deep for me at this moment. Mind you, I've taken on plenty of
other RH projects that sounded like they might be but with the help of it's
users, was able to get by just fine. My first project was setting up a GFS
cluster using fibre channel hardware. Never touched that stuff before and
haven't stopped using it since.
No, I didn't have any problem building a red5 server or getting eclipse
going so that I was ready to tackle my first application. The problems were
related to going from there, in terms of finding information, getting
information, etc.
I then joined the list where I quickly felt like I went back in time. My
first post was asking for help in finding information, asking why there
aren't any forums and immediately saw the bigger picture, which leads us to
this :).
No big deal, I probably should use wowza and maybe when we become more
familiar with such servers, we'll find our way back to red5.
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31281307.html
rightfoot
>If you could point me to the other project forums where people are
complaining
>about the same thing as you, that would be extremely helpful.
It's pretty easy to find it, even in this very thread, not by me.
But to do something more positive, next current thread I come across, I'll
post the url here and maybe some would enjoy having say in the comments. Of
course, there isn't much argument to be made until things actually change.
Like I suggested, maybe it's time you all started your own inside thread
looking for answers. Maybe this is all that it's been about, I just happened
to be the messenger I guess.
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31281345.html
Dominick Accattato
rightfoot
We built both a bbb and om server to check out. We like the fact that bbs
came with a CMS plugin and hope to see the same in OM. Interesting projects
which in turn lead me down the path of media servers.
>work with Red5 and several alternative open source Media Servers have
>benefited from the work that Red5 has done in regards to protocol
>development.
Yes, it does appear that red5 was the lead on many levels which is why it
should lead some more hehe.
For example, wowza has no intention of adding something like Adobe's RTMFP
but it's badly needed in order to save bandwidth various things that could
instead be direct p2p.
>I'll reiterate what Paul said earlier in the thread. We love
>the community and our best years are still to come!
I don't doubt that at all.
I honestly believe that a good start would be fresh new forums which attract
a younger crowd. If the folks used to lists don't want to change, that's
fine but don't hurt red5's chances of attracting new blood, ideas, needs...
opportunities. On another project I'm on, many of the people didn't want to
move from the list but because so many wanted forums, they found a way to
have both. Now when things are posted in the list, they are automatically
posted in the forums. Maybe that's what red5 needs?
And of course next would be documentation. I hate using the other guys name
over and over but one thing that makes them look good is all of the cool
docs. Lots of examples on how to set up various apps and examples on the
server itself. It would be cool to see red5 docs on specific things. How to
stream a live video feed. How to re-stream something, how to stream to a
mobile, what ever, one doc at a time.
I think the future is p2p on many levels, I'd love to use red5 for a voip
application I have. Why use switched when you don't have to and why use your
bandwidth when you don't have to.
I'd love to contribute but I'm not a dev. I am only an end user who doesn't
have the luxury of time to become a professional at every technology that he
touches. But, as an end user, I believe I still am able to often offer
useful input, ideas, even brain teasear's that often turn into brand new
ideas for things to come.
Anyhow, gotta do drink some beer, been a long long day.
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Wowza%2C-Red5-relationship--tp27865996p31281844.html
Fred Dixon
> have proved that our server is capable of building platforms on.
source project would not exist without red5.
We started BigBlueButton over four years ago with the goal of enabling
universities and colleges to offer remote students a high quality
learning experience. In the early days, our prototypes were all in
HTML, they were not great, and we were going nowhere fast. A few
months after the project started, Richard Alam, BigBlueButton's
architect, made the decision to build upon red5.
We've never looked back.
Building upon red5 enabled us to focus our limited resources on
creating end-user functionality and solving real world problems for
distance education. Without red5, we would have spent months building
the underlying server, we would have been very late to market, and we
would have exhausted our resources long before any cared about our
project.
BigBlueButton exists because we got a ladder, climbed up, and stood on
the shoulders of Chris, Dominick, Paul, Dan, Art, Tiago, and the many
other developers who contributed to red5.
Regards,... Fred
--
http://bigbluebutton.org/
Chris Allen
Sent from my iPhone
Josh
software in the world including commercial ones. Each has its own
advantage and disadvantage.
For the opensource projects, you have two options : 1.) you spend less
time pay more money through supporting companies or 2.) spend your
time learning to become a supporting company yourself
For commercial projects,you have Just one option : 1.) you spend less
time,pay more money + spend time learning depending on the project.
But,I think the folks who make these opensource projects are doing a
great job. You're creating jobs and opportunities for so many people
and companies. These opportunities never existed before you invented
this project. New companies and new job opportunities are always
springing up due to your work.
Thank you so much Fred,Chris, Dominick, Paul, Dan, Art and Tiago! You
people are certainly the heroes and your work will never loose its
value. Keep up the great work. Thanks again.
On Mar 31, 7:42 am, Chris Allen <mrchrisal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the kind words Paul! We need to get that kind of statement on the website in a testimonials section.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
Walter Tak
Yes Charly of Wowza is doing a great job answering a lot of questions, but his answers will be commercially short ; if you don't understand what he wrote, because he has limited time and cannot answer all questions of 'free' users, then you are stuck as well.
And they suddenly you realize that most users of Wowza have this commercial approach and only want to have their own answers answered. Why would a commercial Wowza developer answer your complex questions if he can sell the answer for 100usd an hour ? Think about that. I've seen so many FMS developers lift a tip of a possible answer on the Adobe forums and write in their signature ; "contact me for commercial FMS support". There have been countless threads on this list about ideas in Red5. 99% of them have not that commercial short message-style. The Red5 list is more like a chat, more relaxed, but some people will shout RTFM! because well .. if you don't RTFM then this product is way to complicated for you to grasp. Little chance that you will master Wowza , or FMS without any Reading of The Friendly Manual.
My 2 cents,
Walter
Dominick Accattato
D-Durga-Prasad
Jr Technical Staff,
Computer Science Engineering Department.,
Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur, INDIA
Contact:
ddpr...@iitkgp.ac.in,ddpr...@cse.iitkgp.ernet.in, ddpr...@gmail.com
Mobile: +91 9474756471
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts!!
Chris Allen
Dominick Accattato
Fred Dixon
Dominick Accattato
sledjama
developers for their time putting together this great server.
I have compared all but somehow, i see there is a GREAT future for
red5, why? it's free and open
how i wish i am good enough to contribute to the development.