TS Aligner and similar set-up gauges
Thomas Bunetta
It works as advertised, I'd buy it again.
Tom
Aaron J. Lemchen <al...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:369127AC...@u.washington.edu...
Mel Meer
but I set up my saw with an inexpensive dial
gague ($20 from JC Whitney). Clamps to my
mitre gague and gives accuracy to a fraction
of a thousanth of an inch.
Measure to a tooth in the front, and the same
tooth in the rear.
The gague can be used for many other things.
Even this simple set-up seems like overkill
for setting up woodworking machines.
Mel
Paul Mc Cann
rayh...@aol.com says...
> >Subject: TS Aligner and similar set-up gauges
> >From: "Aaron J. Lemchen" <al...@u.washington.edu>
>
> >Does anyone in this newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up
> >gauges such as Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc. If you do, please inform
> >of your experiences with these items.
> >
>
> People shouldn't be allowed to turn on a new TS unless it's been first checked
> out with a TS-Aligner Jr.
Gee and I've been using a lathe for turning on all these years
--
Paul Mc Cann
Ed Bennett
>
> Does anyone in this newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up
> gauges such as Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc. If you do, please inform
> of your experiences with these items.
Hi Aaron,
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about the TS-Aligner
products. You're also welcome to visit my web site:
You'll find lots of info there including literature and user's manuals.
Thanks,
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
Paul Mc Cann
snip>
> Aaron J. Lemchen wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone in this newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up
> > gauges such as Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc. If you do, please inform
> > of your experiences with these items.
> >
>
saw with a sliding table is with a large off cut of ply or whatever.
Rip one edge keeping the ply tight to the mitre gauge, rotate the piece
90 degrees clock wise and rip again. Do this on all four sides then rip
about a 2 inch wide strip off the first edge. (Keep the material tight to
the mitre gauge at all times)
Cut this 2 inch strip in half, rotate one piece and keeping the two
pieces flat together set them on edge on a flat surface. Any discrepancy
will show as a difference in height on one end. Remember,when calculating
a correction, the inaccuracy has been multiplied by four --
Paul Mc Cann
Ed Bennett
shops. Some shops even buy material specifically for test cuts like
this. It can help in squaring up a sliding table or miter gauge but
that's all. It doesn't address angles any other adjustments. And, it
doesn't help in setting up any other machines. It's pretty expensive to
go cutting up a bunch of plywood every time you need to see if your
miter gauge or sliding table is square. Do this three or four times and
you've paid for a TS-Aligner Jr. If you had the TS-Aligner Jr. you could
check this adjustment as often as you want, which for me is every time I
use the miter gauge or sliding table. And, you could use it on lots of
other adjustments and machines.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
Randy Hubbard
Netiquette allow a company to not only discuss it's products in an
appropriate thread, but they also allow the company to contribute to the
group (as Ed often does) and to refer folks to their website for more
details on related products. I suspect there would be less spam and less
hostility in newsgroups if everyone would take a peak at the rules of
netiquette.
Now when "tools99" or similar spams every related newsgroup multiple times
per day, for a week, then you have a VERY legitimate case of spam that
should not be tolerated past the first posting.
Randy
RayHobbes wrote in message <19990114070856...@ng01.aol.com>...
>As much as I love your TS-Aligner (which as you already know, I own) and as
>much as I agree with your statement below, I don't think that you should be
>using the forum for promoting your products.
>
>>Subject: Re: TS Aligner and similar set-up gauges
>>From: Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com>
Roger Blake
RayHobbes wrote in message <19990114070856...@ng01.aol.com>...
>As much as I love your TS-Aligner (which as you already know, I own) and as
>much as I agree with your statement below, I don't think that you should be
>using the forum for promoting your products.
>
Give me a break. This guy contributes all the time to the group and would
probably make the same post even if there was no financial interest in him
doing so. How many times do you complain when some guy posts the tool list
he is selling day after day?
-roger, (who does not own one and does not see any need to but likes check
the accuracy using actual wood cuts similar to methods described in posts
above)
Ed Bennett
>
> As much as I love your TS-Aligner (which as you already know, I own) and as
> much as I agree with your statement below, I don't think that you should be
> using the forum for promoting your products.
Reply to email and usenet:
Hi Ray,
It's always a difficult situation for a manufacturer to get involved in
a newsgroup that relates to his products. Typically, you're damned if
you do and damned if you don't. Is it right to allow an uninformed
opinions or ignorant comments to dictate what people think of my
products? Or, it is right to answer their questions authoritatively and
debunk myths and legends about my products and woodworking in general?
I've seen several products and whole companies get completely slandered
by careless and ignorant rants from some pretty clueless individuals
who, even when proven wrong, refused to recant. It's a shame when this
happens and no authoritative voice is available to set the record
straight. I don't want this happening to me or my products. So, I'm
willing to suffer the occasional accusation from someone thinking that
answering a question or addressing an issue is inappropriate or
constitutes "spam".
Take this thread for example. I didn't start it. It's subject
specifically names my products. The original poster wanted
authoritative information about my products ("Does anyone in this
newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up gauges such as
Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc."). I happen to have lots of experience
on this topic, more than anybody else I know of. When I answered, I
simply informed the poster (and the group) that I was available to
answer any questions. Then Paul McCann answered to describe a technique
which allegedly (by implication) eliminates the need for my products.
So, I have a choice. I can let people believe that TS-Aligner is only
good for squaring up your miter gauge or sliding table and that a few
cuts on a piece of plywood is the "simplest way" to align a saw and make
all adjustments. Or I can de-bunk the misleading information and let
people know that the implication is false and from an uninformed
source. I chose the latter.
Yes, I'm a bit biased when I discuss my own products in the newsgroup.
But, I don't hide the fact that they are my products. I don't feel any
obligation to give "equal time" to competitive products. The
manufacturers are just as free to represent their products as I am to
represent mine. In a way, I have somewhat of a special obligation to
this group. I owe the whole concept of TS-Aligner Jr. to
rec.woodworking because it was originally conceived by it's members (the
concept of an affordable alignment jig, not the design). I don't post
daily or even weekly promotional messages. I don't post hundreds of
duplicate messages to completely unrelated newsgroups. I don't send
spam email to every participant in rec.woodworking. I simply contribute
when and where I can, and I provide an authoritative voice to answer
questions and issues about woodworking and my products. It's not "spam"
or any other form of usenet abuse.
Let me invite you to read an interesting article in another newsgroup.
Go to news.admin.misc and read "Advertising on Usenet: How To Do It, How
Not To Do It". I follow it's recommendations pretty closely. If you
can't find the article on your news server I'll email it to you.
Thanks,
Jeff LaCoss
> >> To date simplest way I've found to set up a table saw mitre gauge or a
> >> saw with a sliding table is with a large off cut of ply or whatever.
I don't remember who sent me this idea, but it worked pretty well... it's
sorta the "Poor Man's TS Aligner."
1) Get a piece of wood that barely fits into the miter gauge slot on your
TS. I found just about any piece of 3/4" oak from HD works for me - I
have to thump it a few times with a mallet, but the point is, it's in there
TIGHT - no slop allowed. This is your reference surface or "fence."
2) Get another piece of wood that is flat on 1 side to slide smoothly
against piece 1) and has about 1/2" clearance to the blade. It matters
not one whit whether this piece is square, as long as the SAME SIDE
ALWAYS touches the fence.
3) Screw a 1" BRASS wood screw into piece 2). Use a steel screw at
the peril of chipping a tooth.
4) Mark ONE tooth on the blade of your choice.
5) Slide the block so that the screw BARELY touches (or barely
clears) the marked tooth when the tooth is just clear of the table
at the near end of the zero-clearance slot.
6) Rotate the blade and slide the block of wood so the screw barely
touches (or barely clears) the screw when the tooth is just clear of
the table at the far end of the zero-clearance slot.
Does the marked tooth on the blade BARELY touch (or clear) the screw?
- If yes, the blade is parallel to the miter slot. You are done. Go to 10).
- If no, the blade is not parallel, and the trunnion must be aligned. Go to 7).
7) Back the screw out of the block of wood by 1/4 turn, or 1/2 the gap,
whichever is less.
8) Loosen the trunnion bolts so they are finger-tight and shift the
trunnion/arbor assembly with some form of main force (a mallet or a
2x4 OR a mallet AND a 2x4). Make sure you are shifting it so the gap
between the screw and the blade will get smaller!
9) Repeat steps 5-7.
10) Tighten the trunnion bolts so they are just past finger tight. Check
the gap again: the trunnion may shift as the bolts are snugged down.
If the trunnion didn't shift, tighten the bolts down to the recommended
torque setting and check the gap again.
The human eye can resolve very small gaps, particularly if you have
a back-lit piece of paper below the blade for illumination. If you make
sure you're not pressing against the side of the blade, you can easily
bring the blade into 1- or 1.5-mil tolerance, which is about as flat as a
blade will get. (For this alignment method, it doesn't matter if the blade
is flat, as long as you don't push against it - you can easily flex it by
0.010 or 0.015, which you can't see.)
While the TS Aligner is probably very good for aligning table saws,
it costs somewhat more than a couple of pieces of wood and a brass
screw.
Jeff
Dave Bugg
response to Ray's concerns.
I think it is very appropriate to hear from an equipment manufacturer when
there is an accusation, question or concern vocalized about their product.
I recall a not-so-distant thread in which a vitriolic and unwarranted attack
on Jesada occurred. The author of that original post made a rant that was a
wild-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth fusillade of fulminating crap which bordered
on slander (IMHO). That's what tertiary syphilis will do to the brain. I
really wished that we could have had the opportunity to hear from Mr.
Venditto; but I can understand the reluctance of a company president to step
into the dreck and mudge that is left in the wake of some snot-nosed spittle
spewer. That's assuming Carlo even was aware of the rant.
By the same token, I'd love to get a CEO who produces some of the real crap
that's out there into this newsgroup and give him/her some muck and dredge
to chew on!
IMO, I'm glad to hear from the Ed Bennetts who care enough about their
products to give us the answers to our concerns. It is an exceedingly rare
thing to be able to communicate with the person on whose desk the buck
stops. Thanks Ed.
*********
Ed Bennett wrote in message <369EE20D...@primenet.com>...
Kevin Singleton
Dave Bugg wrote in message <77mtau$d5h$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>...
>Ed, I for one appreciate your postings and agree with what you have said in
>response to Ray's concerns.
>
open forum, such as this, to educate the consumer and respond to concerns
about their products or services.
Kevin
Al Taylor
>Give me a break. This guy contributes all the time to the group and would
>probably make the same post even if there was no financial interest in him
>doing so. How many times do you complain when some guy posts the tool list
>he is selling day after day?
He's just doing what he's been programmed to to Roger.
Al
xyzj...@primary.net
Ed Bennett=Class Act.
Thank you, sir.
Jeffrey
remove xyz to reply
Randy Hubbard
only more accurate, and easier to use, it's a big time saver. If you're
happy with your procedure fine, but for those who's time is of value I think
the TS Aligner is a very useful tool.
Randy
Jeff LaCoss wrote in message <369EAFD1...@isi.edu>...
Paul Mc Cann
> Yes, I've seen this method used in professional shops, not much in home
> shops. Some shops even buy material specifically for test cuts like
> this. It can help in squaring up a sliding table or miter gauge but
> that's all. It doesn't address angles any other adjustments. And, it
> doesn't help in setting up any other machines. It's pretty expensive to
> go cutting up a bunch of plywood every time you need to see if your
> miter gauge or sliding table is square. Do this three or four times and
> you've paid for a TS-Aligner Jr. If you had the TS-Aligner Jr. you could
> check this adjustment as often as you want, which for me is every time I
> use the miter gauge or sliding table. And, you could use it on lots of
> other adjustments and machines.
>
>
Ed,
I wouldn't dream of arguing with you and one day real soon now I'm gonna
get one of your tools, but the facts are, in the small commercial shop we
have ( I also have a home workshop), off-cuts of sheet material are 2 a
penny.
We also get a lot of what our supplier calls "Cover" sheets f.o.c. (i.e.)
Sheet material, be it 6mm or 12mm ply or plain 15mm chipboard or
whatever, that has been damaged in someway that makes it un saleable.
(It's one of my personal favourite sources of free material for my own
use) What happens is the guys delivering sheet goods to us do so on a
flat bed truck and they generally cover it with one of these "cover"
sheets for protection. After they've made their drop, and if we're the
last drop in the run, they're always glad to get rid of the cover sheet.
(An 8 x 4 of 15mm chipboard flying off a flat bed truck does not make a
pretty sight)
I know you obliged me with your explanation of using one of your devices
to square up a fence on a sliding table I'm afraid I remain a bit un-
convinced.
Perhaps there's someone out there using a TS Aligner in a commercial
environment to true up the fence on a sliding table capable of taking an
8 x 6 sheet of material who could help convince me.
--
Paul Mc Cann
Paul Mc Cann
> snip
> Then Paul McCann answered to describe a technique
> which allegedly (by implication) eliminates the need for my products.
Whoa! Whoa! I had absolutely no intention of impugning your product.
I know full well that your TS Aligner does a lot more than just square up
the mitre gauge as I've many times studied the details of it in various
catalogues and on you web site .
I think you're being a little bit touchy here. I was only passing on a
technique I had just recently observed a technician use to check the back
fence on a sliding table saw.
I thought it was simple, quick and accurate enough to be used in a
commercial environment, and as such thought it might be of interest to
other people in the group.
You were helpful enough to reply to two e-mail enquiries I sent you but I
regret have not fully convinced me that your TS Aligner would function as
effectively on an 8 x 6 sliding table as it will only take a measurement
from the movement of the table as it passes the saw blade (A max of say
10" on a 12" blade.) The method I saw used used a piece of board about
6ft square so any error was magnified over a 72" length. It further
appealed to me as I could envisage a table saw operator check very
quickly if the saw was cutting true. To be honest I could not envisage
handing your TS Aligner to quite a few of the table saw operators I've
had the pleasure to know.
> So, I have a choice. I can let people believe that TS-Aligner is only
> good for squaring up your miter gauge or sliding table and that a few
> cuts on a piece of plywood is the "simplest way" to align a saw and make
> all adjustments.
Aw come on Ed. I never made any such claims. I think I specifically
mentioned mitre gauge or sliding table set up.
> Or I can de-bunk the misleading information and let
> people know that the implication is false and from an uninformed
> source. I chose the latter.
Seems to me you're setting up Aunt Sallys so you can knock them down. I
think you (mis)read a lot into my post that wasn't there.
--
Paul Mc Cann
Craig Patchett
news:19990114070856...@ng01.aol.com...
>As much as I love your TS-Aligner (which as you already know, I own) and as
>much as I agree with your statement below, I don't think that you should be
>using the forum for promoting your products.
C'mon Ray, the poor guy's defending his product, not promoting it.
Craig
******************************************
Craig Patchett <cr...@patchett.com>
The CGI/Perl Cookbook: http://cgi-perl.com
love \luv\ (v): See John 3:16
Ed Bennett
the rub" methods. Essentially, you've got to be pretty good at
subjectivly determining if the "barely touches" or "barely clears" at
one end of the blade is the same at the other end of the blade. Some
people are pretty good at this. I'm not. I get very frustrated knowing
that even minor pressure on the blade will cause it to flex and change
the "feel of the rub" and hence my subjective measure of alignment.
Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer to just look at the needle on the dial
indicator and read exactly how much misalignment there is and watch it
change as I make the adjustment. I also like to watch it change as I
tighten the bolts so that I can compensate for the shift as it happens.
No subjective guess work here. No endless checking and re-checking. No
exhausting hours of "feel the rub" frustration.
Also, as with the previous method (cutting up a piece of plywood), this
technique only addresses ONE aspect of alignment on ONE machine. You
can't set blade tilt using this method. You can't set your miter
gauge. Nor can you set the knives in your jointer using this
technique. And how about your drill press, shaper, and all the other
machines in your shop? I don't think so. All you can do is align your
blade to the miter slot (and if you're willing to scratch up your fence
with the end of that screw, you could probably get that aligned too).
Finally, a "Poor Man's TS-Aligner" it is not. A dial indicator on a
stick is a "Poor Man's TS-Aligner". This is just another variation of
the traditional "feel the rub" trial and error technique. If you value
your time at all, then you quickly realize that a TS-Aligner Jr. will
cost a whole lot less than "a couple of pieces of wood and a brass
screw."
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
Kevin Neelley
slot) miter gauge. I use the dial indicator for remounting bowls back on my
lathe when they go flying. There's no faster way to perform these two tasks
than with a dial indicator. Get one. They're not expensive.
Kevin
Ed Bennett wrote in message <36A41E42...@primenet.com>...
Kevin Neelley
Ed Bennett
>In article <369EE20D...@primenet.com>, e...@primenet.com says...
>> snip
>
>> Then Paul McCann answered to describe a technique
>> which allegedly (by implication) eliminates the need for my products.
>
> Whoa! Whoa! I had absolutely no intention of impugning your product.
Well Paul, I'm sorry I took it that way but I can't see how I could have
taken it any other way. The original poster did not ask about
techniques for aligning a saw. He didn't mention anything at all about
sliding tables or miter gauges. He asked about my products and other
products like mine. You did not reply with information about "TS
Aligner and similar set-up gauges". You replied with a procedure that:
A. ...was specificly limited to aligning only one
function of one machine.
B. ...did not require "TS Aligner and similar
set-up gauges" (which is the topic of the
thread).
>I know full well that your TS Aligner does a lot more than just square
up
>the mitre gauge as I've many times studied the details of it in various
>catalogues and on you web site .
>
>I think you're being a little bit touchy here. I was only passing on a
>technique I had just recently observed a technician use to check the
back
>fence on a sliding table saw.
Well, perhaps I am being a bit touchy here. But, before you conclude
that I just flew off the handle, consider the following: If someone at
your workplace were to ask about your performance on the job, and the
response outlined a plan for doing the work without you, then how would
you feel?
>I thought it was simple, quick and accurate enough to be used in a
>commercial environment, and as such thought it might be of interest to
>other people in the group.
And, as I replied, I've seen it used in a commercial environment.
Altendorf service technicians actually recommend this procedure. But,
your answer addressed a question that wasn't asked. You answered the
question: "Is there a quick and easy technique for squaring up a sliding
table or miter gauge that doesn't involve a TS-Aligner or other set-up
gauge?"
>You were helpful enough to reply to two e-mail enquiries I sent you but
I
>regret have not fully convinced me that your TS Aligner would function
as
>effectively on an 8 x 6 sliding table as it will only take a
measurement
>from the movement of the table as it passes the saw blade (A max of say
>10" on a 12" blade.) The method I saw used used a piece of board about
>6ft square so any error was magnified over a 72" length. It further
>appealed to me as I could envisage a table saw operator check very
>quickly if the saw was cutting true.
Well, I can see that you completely misunderstand the TS-Aligner
products, how they work, and what they do. Who said that the TS-Aligner
"...will only take a measurement from the movement of the table as it
passes the saw blade (A max of say 10" on a 12" blade.)"? I use an 18"
precision square when I align my sliding table and I measure the error
in thousandths of an inch. In the time it takes your table saw operator
to make one cut on your plywood, I've already measured the error and
squared up my sliding table to within +/-0.001" over over that 18"
length. And, I didn't waste a piece of plywood doing it. Did you
download a copy of the user's guide from my web site and read the
section on squaring up a miter gauge or sliding table? It would seem
that you didn't. Perhaps you would do better to understand something
before being critical of it. What you describe (measuring the surface
of the blade from the movement of the sliding table) is a procedure to
align the blade, not the sliding table.
>To be honest I could not envisage
>handing your TS Aligner to quite a few of the table saw operators I've
>had the pleasure to know.
I actually have handed a TS-Aligner to scores of table saw operators and
once they understand how it works they swear by it.
>> So, I have a choice. I can let people believe that TS-Aligner is
only
>> good for squaring up your miter gauge or sliding table and that a few
>> cuts on a piece of plywood is the "simplest way" to align a saw and
make
>> all adjustments.
>
>
> Aw come on Ed. I never made any such claims. I think I specifically
>mentioned mitre gauge or sliding table set up.
Again, the answer you offered did not address the question that was
asked. The original poster did not ask for any alignment procedures.
He did not ask for a procedure for squaring up miter gauges and sliding
tables. He wanted feedback on my products and other similar products.
Think about my example
"Does anybody have any experience working
with Paul McCann?"
"Well, the quickest and simplest way to get
the floor swept is to do it yourself."
Can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't feel the least bit defensive
if you were party to such a discussion? Don't you feel as if the answer
implies things that have nothing to do with the question? Do you just
sweep floors? Can anybody do a better job by doing it themselves? I'd
say that the answer is misleading, the implications are false, and the
source is likely uninformed about your work performance and duties. Get
the picture?
>> Or I can de-bunk the misleading information and let
>> people know that the implication is false and from an uninformed
>> source. I chose the latter.
>
>
>Seems to me you're setting up Aunt Sallys so you can knock them down. I
>think you (mis)read a lot into my post that wasn't there.
If it wasn't intended, then why the conclusion in this message "...but I
regret [you] have not fully convinced me that your TS Aligner would
function as effectively [as the plywood method] on an 8 x 6 sliding
table..."? And why are you eager to say "To be honest I could not
envisage handing your TS Aligner to quite a few of the table saw
operators I've had the pleasure to know." So, what was your intention?
Were you just looking to share a technique that you thought people might
be interested in? Really?
You admit that you think this technique of cutting up plywood is better
than using a TS-Aligner. You can't imagine most table saw operators
using a TS-Aligner. And, the place you choose to share this interesting
technique just happens to be a thread devoted to TS-Aligner. But, you
"had absolutely no intention of impugning" TS-Aligner. It never occured
to you that this message of yours could imply anything negative about
TS-Aligner. You think that I've mis-read your intentions? I think not.
Douglas Rhodes
I have one of these TS Aligners and love it.
Aligns your tablesaw faster and more accurately than the cut, scrape, listen
method that I used to use. Besides using it to aligning my TS, I use it to
setup my shaper fences to be perfectly parallel to the miter slot and exactly
the distance I want.
Even the TS fence can be moved exactly the distance you need from a previous
position.
Another very satisfied customer......
John Siegel
it has one BIG advantage for me. As one with nowhere near 20-20 vision,
it is much easier to read a dial indicator and follow small changes than
to gauge a small gap visually. A satisfied customer.
John
> Ed Bennett
> e...@primenet.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner
>
> Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
>
Ed Bennett
gonna
>get one of your tools,
I appreciate your sudden vote of confidance!
>but the facts are, in the small commercial shop we
>have ( I also have a home workshop), off-cuts of sheet material are 2 a
>penny.
I would guess that you're saying in this statement that you have lots of
scrap and it isn't worth anything. So, you're saying that you don't
have any problem finding materials and time for doing test cuts. Fine,
if the owner of your small commercial shop doesn't mind spending his
profit on such things then that's his business. I find very few shops
anymore that can afford to do this.
>We also get a lot of what our supplier calls "Cover" sheets f.o.c.
(i.e.)
>Sheet material, be it 6mm or 12mm ply or plain 15mm chipboard or
>whatever, that has been damaged in someway that makes it un saleable.
>(It's one of my personal favourite sources of free material for my own
>use) What happens is the guys delivering sheet goods to us do so on a
>flat bed truck and they generally cover it with one of these "cover"
>sheets for protection. After they've made their drop, and if we're the
>last drop in the run, they're always glad to get rid of the cover
sheet.
>(An 8 x 4 of 15mm chipboard flying off a flat bed truck does not make a
>pretty sight)
Well, that's great for your shop. I've never had anybody drop off a
free "cover sheet" at my shop. I suspect that most of the members of
this group don't have access to free sheets either. If they did, I
doubt that they would be eager to use it for test cuts.
>I know you obliged me with your explanation of using one of your
devices
>to square up a fence on a sliding table I'm afraid I remain a bit un-
>convinced.
Actually, as I remember, you wanted to know how a panel saw could be
aligned since it didn't have a miter slot. I'd have to look back at the
messages to see. I recall describing how the blade would be aligned,
using the travel of the sliding table as your reference (instead of the
miter slot). In any case, your statement here is quite confusing to me.
Above you say that you are ready to buy a TS-Aligner "one day real
soon". Here you say that you remain unconvinced.
>Perhaps there's someone out there using a TS Aligner in a commercial
>environment to true up the fence on a sliding table capable of taking
an
>8 x 6 sheet of material who could help convince me.
The lack of response here should help you realize that there just aren't
a lot of industrial woodworkers that frequent this group. I've seen a
few come and go but most folks here are hobbyists. For the most part, I
suspect that they wouldn't want to be using free sheet goods for test
cuts. Most of them probably don't have sliding tables or even saws that
could accommodate a sliding table for 8x6 sheets. Perhaps you could
call one of several furniture factories in N. Carolina and get this sort
of feedback. Yes, they use TS-Aligners to set up their panel saws.
I have a sliding table on my Unisaw that can accommodate 4x8 sheets.
Mostly we use this saw to do precision cutting of aluminum. Alignment
is absolutely critical when cutting such high density materials. You
can't afford to have a kickback send an 80 lb piece of metal in your
general direction. You also don't want to waste any time or materials
doing test cuts because the costs are much higher in the metalworking
arena than they are in a woodworking shop. Using the TS-Aligner, we
very easily do work to within a few thousandths of straight and square
with absolutely no test cuts. Cabinet work? Yes, I've used this saw to
cut quite a bit of sheet goods for cabinets and other furniture. Still
accurate to within thousandths of an inch. Still no test cuts.
Paul Mc Cann
I'm breaking one of my fundamental rules of commenting in news groups
which is, when I get down to discussing the thread with only one guy I
stop, because it usually has no relevance to other users of the group at
this stage, but you are one touchy, touchy individual.
If I thought you had enough savvy to be devious enough, I'd say you're
just using this manufactured argument as a method of promoting your
product by keeping the discussion alive, but I think its just a case of
the real unpleasant person poking through
If you, Mr Ed Bennet, believe, or are trying to make me believe that
all messages on a news group confine themselves strictly to the
header, you're living in La La land. In the majority of cases the header
is merely a launching point for a discussion. All I was attempting to do
was share a tip I had just picked up. I made no comment about your
product at all in my initial posting. I believed the tip I was offering
was of obvious relevance.
You really are an arrogant individual. You jump to the conclusion that
the thread is devoted solely to you product and any comments about
anything else are to be taken as a personal insult.
And whats with the gross exaggeration "In the time a panel saw operator
has made one cut you've already :-
Gone to the cupboard and taken out the box with your toy in it.
Opened the box and lovingly removed your toy
Set the toy up on the sliding table and presumably performed basic
calibrations.
Taken a measurement
Calculated the adjustment necessary . (Let me see now, is it 0.001
of a twist on the adjuster for each .001 error or maybe its
0.0015)
In a pigs ear you have.
Let me tell you, any panel saw operator worth his salt has picked up an
off-cut and made the requisite four cuts in less than one minute. No way
is faffing around with a dial gauge going to compete with
that.(Incidentally we are talking off-cuts here, freebies. Any way, they
are not a total waste. There would be sufficient left over to be of use
if one wanted it. And it doesn't have to be ply or mdf or particle board,
masonite would function equally well.
One of your compatriots pointed out to me via e mail that he regarded
rec.woodworking as really an enthusiast's group , and not professional
wood workers forum.
I think he hit the nail on the head. Your version of an alignment jig
is really a tool junkies diddle-i-dums, something for the boys to play
with to while away the time. I can think of none of the many many
furniture factories I am familiar with who would even dream of handing a
dial gauge and a couple of pieces of aluminum to their saw operators and
telling them to use them to set up their saw. They would be laughed out
of their shop.
So chill out Mr toy maker.
Here's one guy who'll never be a customer now thanks to your arrogant
display of bad temper.
Paul Mc Cann
Unknown
<al...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Does anyone in this newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up
>gauges such as Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc. If you do, please inform
>of your experiences with these items.
Aaron:
I bought a Ts-Aligner Jr. about a year ago and now I couldn't
imagine not having one! Simple and very accurate are the words that
come to mind. Being that the unit has 3 bearings on the base that
allow for travel within the miter slot was what first caught my eye.
Anything that doesn't provide for this type of movement is of little
use to me especially on a table saw. It is very easy to use once you
learn to relax and pay attention to what is going on with the
indicator.
Being that it measures in increments of .001 of an inch it is
actually more accurate than what the average woodworking job
requires, let face it, humidity can change things more than that much.
However this degree of accuracy is exactly what I require just to keep
my mind at ease about things like kickback, material finish and blade
wear. I mostly use it for setup before rough sawing aluminum, I use
that term VERY lightly being that there isn't anything rough about a
cut made after such accurate setup.
I also feel it important to mention that the tool is only as good as
the machine it is used on. There are a great many machines out there
that are, for lack of a better term, "junk" and those simply cannot
adjust enough to take advantage of the accuracy of a dial indicator.
The Ts-Aligner is nothing more than a well designed base that an
indicator mounts on. Do keep in mind that the bearings I mentioned
above can be removed so that the base can be clamped just about
anywhere your imagination feels the need to put it.
All in all my impression is that the tool is very stable, accurate
and above all, quick and easy. Well worth its modest price!
Happy Woodworking!
Chris
Ed Bennett
>
> In article <783bee$h8...@hpbs1500.boi.hp.com>, e...@primenet.com says...
>
> I'm breaking one of my fundamental rules of commenting in news groups
> which is, when I get down to discussing the thread with only one guy I
> stop, because it usually has no relevance to other users of the group at
> this stage, but you are one touchy, touchy individual.
I suppose I am a bit touchy when people say things about my products
that aren't true and pretend to know what they are talking about.
> If I thought you had enough savvy to be devious enough, I'd say you're
> just using this manufactured argument as a method of promoting your
> product by keeping the discussion alive, but I think its just a case of
> the real unpleasant person poking through
"Manufactured argument"? "Unpleasant person"?
> If you, Mr Ed Bennet, believe, or are trying to make me believe that
> all messages on a news group confine themselves strictly to the
> header, you're living in La La land. In the majority of cases the header
> is merely a launching point for a discussion. All I was attempting to do
> was share a tip I had just picked up. I made no comment about your
> product at all in my initial posting. I believed the tip I was offering
> was of obvious relevance.
It's a matter of netiquette. I am no stranger to Usenet and I know that
discussions do go astray. Sometimes they gradually drift off topic and
sometimes a person posts a completely off-topic reply. It's considered
bad netiquette to post completely off topic replies. The guy was asking
about particular tools, not particular techniques. Since you still
pretend to "not get it", I'll give you yet another example. Suppose a
person posts a message asking people's opinions of various biscuit
joiners and a reply comes back saying "I think the best way to join two
pieces of wood is the mortise and tennon." Would you insist that this
person isn't offering an alternative to biscuit joinery? Isn't he
implying an opinion about using a biscuit joiner?
> You really are an arrogant individual. You jump to the conclusion that
> the thread is devoted solely to you product and any comments about
> anything else are to be taken as a personal insult.
Arrogant? I thought my first reply to your blatantly off topic message
was pretty darn forgiving. The title given to this thread by the
original poster pretty much defines it's topic. I don't think it's
arrogant to assume that he was interested in hearing what people had to
say about my products. It could be considered a bit arrogant to assume
that he didn't want to hear about my products but wanted someone to tell
him how to align a sliding table. The fact is that we don't even know
if he owns a sliding table!
> And whats with the gross exaggeration "In the time a panel saw operator
> has made one cut you've already :-
>
> Gone to the cupboard and taken out the box with your toy in it.
>
> Opened the box and lovingly removed your toy
>
> Set the toy up on the sliding table and presumably performed basic
> calibrations.
>
> Taken a measurement
>
> Calculated the adjustment necessary . (Let me see now, is it 0.001
> of a twist on the adjuster for each .001 error or maybe its
> 0.0015)
>
> In a pigs ear you have.
I think "false and uninformed" still characterizes what you have to say
about my products. You don't seem to realize that I'm watching the dial
indicator as I make the adjustment. I don't have to calculate
anything. I just adjust the fence until it's square with the travel of
the table. Want me to send you a video showing you how quickly it's
done? While I'm sliding the table forward I'm not making the first of
four cuts to be followed an evaluation of the error, I'm measuring the
error directly. It's simpler, faster, and more accurate than your
method and it doesn't waste any materials (no matter how insignificant
you claim them to be).
> Let me tell you, any panel saw operator worth his salt has picked up an
> off-cut and made the requisite four cuts in less than one minute. No way
> is faffing around with a dial gauge going to compete with
> that.(Incidentally we are talking off-cuts here, freebies. Any way, they
> are not a total waste. There would be sufficient left over to be of use
> if one wanted it. And it doesn't have to be ply or mdf or particle board,
> masonite would function equally well.
So now it's just an off-cut? When you started this thing it was
described as a "large off cut of ply or whatever". When you needed to
justify accuracy, it became "a piece of board about 6ft square so any
error was magnified over a 72" length". Now, when waste is a
consideration it's become meaningless scrap, "we are talking off-cuts
here, freebies".
You malign my products, calling them "toys" and "diddle-i-dums". You
malign me saying that I'm "arrogant" and calling me "Mr. toy maker".
You malign my customers, calling them "tool junkies". And, you accuse
me of being a bit touchy when I don't like it. I'm sorry you feel so
put out! How am I supposed to act? Do you really prefer to buy
products from companies that have no pride in what they do and consider
their products to be worthless "toys" for "tool junkies"? Are you
saying that you'd have more respect for me if I had not challenged your
false, uninformed criticisms? Geez! And you have the gall to say that
I'm arrogant!
> One of your compatriots pointed out to me via e mail that he regarded
> rec.woodworking as really an enthusiast's group , and not professional
> wood workers forum.
You didn't pick this up from reading the endless "Norm", "Robin's Butt",
and the eternal "Which table saw for under $200" threads? I guess you
were uninformed again.
> I think he hit the nail on the head. Your version of an alignment jig
> is really a tool junkies diddle-i-dums, something for the boys to play
> with to while away the time. I can think of none of the many many
> furniture factories I am familiar with who would even dream of handing a
> dial gauge and a couple of pieces of aluminum to their saw operators and
> telling them to use them to set up their saw. They would be laughed out
> of their shop.
Well, the factories have purchased these "diddle-i-dums" from me
(through distributors) so I assume they use them. Especially when they
call to ask questions and get help. Perhaps you have trouble imagining
this because you are equally uninformed about the woodworking industry.
It's not full of a bunch of super droolers, and knuckle draggers. Do
you read the trade rags? Ever thumb through FDM? Cabinet Maker? CWB?
How about Woodshop News! Do you see that most industrial machinery is
coming equipped with digital readouts and micrometer adjustments? Did
you know that even Sauder (yes, one of the largest manufacturers of low
cost knock-down furniture) has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars
in process quality control equipment like coordinate measurement
systems? They don't fool around with trial and error setup techniques.
YOU might think that they do but they don't. They plan their work flow
to minimize waste and streamline productivity. They don't keep scrap
and cutoffs around for test cuts. Need some more prestigious examples?
How about Lane, Lexington, Universal, Keller, Kincaid, Moser,
Thomasville, American Drew, Broyhill, Hammary and many others. Their
production floors are loaded with computers and precision measurement
equipment. "Tool junkie diddle-i-dums"? BALDERDASH!
> So chill out Mr toy maker.
>
> Here's one guy who'll never be a customer now thanks to your arrogant
> display of bad temper.
Arrogant display of bad temper? All I did was to point out all the
misinformation and inconsistencies with what you have said. Instead of
admitting what you know is true (that you really are misinformed about
my products), you launch into this rampage of name calling trying to
discredit what I say without addressing my points. Personally, I'm
pretty sure that something is amiss when a person must resort to ad
hominem arguments like this.
I hate to think that my direct and frank manner would chase off
potential customers. But that's nothing compared to how I hate letting
some false and uninformed statements about my products go unanswered.
You call it arrogance if you want, I'll continue to de-bunk false and
uninformed statements.
Paul Mc Cann
> Paul Mc Cann wrote:
> >
> > In article <783bee$h8...@hpbs1500.boi.hp.com>, e...@primenet.com says...
> >
> > I'm breaking one of my fundamental rules of commenting in news groups
> > which is, when I get down to discussing the thread with only one guy I
> > stop, because it usually has no relevance to other users of the group at
> > this stage, but you are one touchy, touchy individual.
>
> I suppose I am a bit touchy when people say things about my products
> that aren't true and pretend to know what they are talking about.
You know you really read what you want to. My initial post made no
reference to your toys
> > If I thought you had enough savvy to be devious enough, I'd say you're
> > just using this manufactured argument as a method of promoting your
> > product by keeping the discussion alive, but I think its just a case of
> > the real unpleasant person poking through
>
> "Manufactured argument"? "Unpleasant person"?
Well as I said, if I thought you had enough savvy............you
obviously don't
>
> > If you, Mr Ed Bennet, believe, or are trying to make me believe that
> > all messages on a news group confine themselves strictly to the
> > header, you're living in La La land. In the majority of cases the header
> > is merely a launching point for a discussion. All I was attempting to do
> > was share a tip I had just picked up. I made no comment about your
> > product at all in my initial posting. I believed the tip I was offering
> > was of obvious relevance.
>
> It's a matter of netiquette. I am no stranger to Usenet and I know that
> discussions do go astray. Sometimes they gradually drift off topic and
> sometimes a person posts a completely off-topic reply. It's considered
> bad netiquette to post completely off topic replies. The guy was asking
> about particular tools, not particular techniques. Since you still
> pretend to "not get it", I'll give you yet another example. Suppose a
> person posts a message asking people's opinions of various biscuit
> joiners and a reply comes back saying "I think the best way to join two
> pieces of wood is the mortise and tennon." Would you insist that this
> person isn't offering an alternative to biscuit joinery? Isn't he
> implying an opinion about using a biscuit joiner?
I've deliberately replied to this rant in the manner you always use.
(i.e.) Nothing snipped. You would appear the one to be short in the
netiquette department.
>
> > You really are an arrogant individual. You jump to the conclusion that
> > the thread is devoted solely to you product and any comments about
> > anything else are to be taken as a personal insult.
>
> Arrogant? I thought my first reply to your blatantly off topic message
> was pretty darn forgiving. The title given to this thread by the
> original poster pretty much defines it's topic. I don't think it's
> arrogant to assume that he was interested in hearing what people had to
> say about my products. It could be considered a bit arrogant to assume
> that he didn't want to hear about my products but wanted someone to tell
> him how to align a sliding table. The fact is that we don't even know
> if he owns a sliding table!
The guy was making an enquiry about setting up gauges. I was offering him
a tip on how to set up his mitre gauge. Plain and simple. I made no
reference to your toy whatsoever. You came on all guns firing, taking
insult and umbrage where none was intended or given. As I said earlier, I
think you did us all a favour. Now we know what type of a person you
really are.
I saw no postings or rants from manufacturers of " similar gauges"
> And whats with the gross exaggeration "In the time a panel saw operator
> has made one cut you've already :-
>
> Gone to the cupboard and taken out the box with your toy in it.
>
> Opened the box and lovingly removed your toy
>
> Set the toy up on the sliding table and presumably performed basic
> calibrations.
>
> Taken a measurement
>
> Calculated the adjustment necessary . (Let me see now, is it 0.001
> of a twist on the adjuster for each .001 error or maybe its
> 0.0015)
>
> In a pigs ear you have.
> I think "false and uninformed" still characterizes what you have to say
> about my products. You don't seem to realize that I'm watching the dial
> indicator as I make the adjustment. I don't have to calculate
> anything. I just adjust the fence until it's square with the travel of
> the table. Want me to send you a video showing you how quickly it's
> done? While I'm sliding the table forward I'm not making the first of
> four cuts to be followed an evaluation of the error, I'm measuring the
> error directly. It's simpler, faster, and more accurate than your
> method and it doesn't waste any materials (no matter how insignificant
> you claim them to be).
No, what I'd like is a video of you doing ALL of the above quicker than a
panel saw operator can make one cut which was what you claimed and which
is what I called a gross exaggeration.
> Let me tell you, any panel saw operator worth his salt has picked up an
> off-cut and made the requisite four cuts in less than one minute. No way
> is faffing around with a dial gauge going to compete with
> that.(Incidentally we are talking off-cuts here, freebies. Any way, they
> are not a total waste. There would be sufficient left over to be of use
> if one wanted it. And it doesn't have to be ply or mdf or particle board,
> masonite would function equally well.
> So now it's just an off-cut? When you started this thing it was
> described as a "large off cut of ply or whatever". When you needed to
> justify accuracy, it became "a piece of board about 6ft square so any
> error was magnified over a 72" length". Now, when waste is a
> consideration it's become meaningless scrap, "we are talking off-cuts
> here, freebies".
Maybe part of your problem is you don't engage gear before reaching for
the keyboard. I started of calling it an off cut and I'm still calling it
an off cut.
> You malign my products, calling them "toys" and "diddle-i-dums". You
> malign me saying that I'm "arrogant" and calling me "Mr. toy maker".
> You malign my customers, calling them "tool junkies". And, you accuse
> me of being a bit touchy when I don't like it.
Sunshine, read my original post, to which you replied in such a boorish
fashion. You are the one who immediately jumped to the conclusion that I
was maligning your product.
> I'm sorry you feel soput out! How am I supposed to act? Do you really
> prefer to buy products from companies that have no pride in what they do
> and consider > their products to be worthless "toys" for "tool junkies"?
> Are you saying that you'd have more respect for me if I had not challenged
> your false, uninformed criticisms? Geez! And you have the gall to say that
> I'm arrogant!
Gawd I hate trying to have a reasoned debate with people who insist in
trailing red herrings and indulging in non-sequiturs.
You still haven't got it. ALL of this stems from YOUR reply to my initial
innocuous hint on setting up a mitre gauge.
> One of your compatriots pointed out to me via e mail that he regarded
> rec.woodworking as really an enthusiast's group , and not professional
> wood workers forum.
> You didn't pick this up from reading the endless "Norm", "Robin's Butt",
> and the eternal "Which table saw for under $200" threads? I guess you
> were uninformed again.
Regrettably I have a business to run and don't have the time, nor
inclination to read all the postings to this group. If you read them all
you must be one sad individual.
> I think he hit the nail on the head. Your version of an alignment jig
> is really a tool junkies diddle-i-dums, something for the boys to play
> with to while away the time. I can think of none of the many many
> furniture factories I am familiar with who would even dream of handing a
> dial gauge and a couple of pieces of aluminum to their saw operators and
> telling them to use them to set up their saw. They would be laughed out
> of their shop.
> Well, the factories have purchased these "diddle-i-dums" from me
> (through distributors) so I assume they use them. Especially when they
> call to ask questions and get help.
Well now we're down to making assumptions and an interesting one at that
in relation to a comment one of your customers made to me about having
bought one and used it once. It has been gathering dust ever since.
Techno-over-kill he called it.
Interesting that this is the first time in this debate that you've told
us about people having to ring up for help.
> Perhaps you have trouble imagining
> this because you are equally uninformed about the woodworking industry.
> It's not full of a bunch of super droolers, and knuckle draggers. Do
> you read the trade rags? Ever thumb through FDM? Cabinet Maker? CWB?
> How about Woodshop News! Do you see that most industrial machinery is
> coming equipped with digital readouts and micrometer adjustments? Did
> you know that even Sauder (yes, one of the largest manufacturers of low
> cost knock-down furniture) has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars
> in process quality control equipment like coordinate measurement
> systems? They don't fool around with trial and error setup techniques.
> YOU might think that they do but they don't. They plan their work flow
> to minimize waste and streamline productivity. They don't keep scrap
> and cutoffs around for test cuts. Need some more prestigious examples?
> How about Lane, Lexington, Universal, Keller, Kincaid, Moser,
> Thomasville, American Drew, Broyhill, Hammary and many others. Their
> production floors are loaded with computers and precision measurement
> equipment. "Tool junkie diddle-i-dums"? BALDERDASH!
What has any of this tirade to do with Ed Bennets toy. Do any of the
above people use it to set up their mitre gauges, planers or drill
presses? (Excuse me while I snigger at the very thought of it )
I thought I had made it clear I own a furniture manufacturing facility.
I've been in the business for longer than I care to remember. While I
again don't have the time or the inclination to read all of the trade
press I do read a share of it.
It is precisely from this view point that I am now commenting on your
toy.
As I initially said, I also have a small home workshop (where
incidentally I have a small sliding table saw, so they can't be all that
unusual in the hobbyist environment ) so I am able to view your toy from
both directions. As a hobbyist, who can afford the time and money for a
little self indulgence and the odd bit of junk, and also as someone who
in the commercial world who has to justify every minute of the working
day and every penny spent.
As the former, a hobbyist, I was more than happy to contemplate buying
one of your toys the next time I was in Garret Wades, but as the latter I
never really believed it was something that could justify its existence
in the REAL world. This was the reason I e-mailed you some time back. And
as I explained, your explanation to me at that time did nothing to
convince me otherwise.
You keep telling me I don't understand how your toy works. Well, if true,
that can't be my fault. I read one of your long turgid posts a long time
ago re your toy. I visited your web site and down loaded whatever info
was available. I've read descriptions of it in various catalogues. I read
the original review a long time in F.W If none of this has given me an
inkling of how it works..............well I'm not the one promoting it.
Fact is I know well how your toy works.
You have still to rise to my original challenge.
You have just taken the opportunity to berate me as you drag red herrings
all over the place
> So chill out Mr toy maker.
>
> Here's one guy who'll never be a customer now thanks to your arrogant
> display of bad temper.
> Arrogant display of bad temper? All I did was to point out all the
> misinformation and inconsistencies with what you have said. Instead of
> admitting what you know is true (that you really are misinformed about
> my products), you launch into this rampage of name calling trying to
> discredit what I say without addressing my points. Personally, I'm
> pretty sure that something is amiss when a person must resort to ad
> hominem arguments like this.
Funny you should say you think something is amiss. This is exactly what I
had been thinking. Poor old Ed, maybe times are bad for him......sales
slacking off.............all that expensive machinery installed to
increase productivity has to be paid for......etc.etc
> I hate to think that my direct and frank manner would chase off
> potential customers. But that's nothing compared to how I hate letting
> some false and uninformed statements about my products go unanswered.
> You call it arrogance if you want, I'll continue to de-bunk false and
> uninformed statements.
Well from where I sit it was your plain boorish ill-manners that DID, not
would, put off a potential customer.
Yep I'll still call it arrogance, and bad manners, and bad customer
relations, and an inability to read and understand what has been written.
At the very least, and to be more charitable than you deserve, you suffer
from bad communication skill.
You not only lost the battle, you lost the war.
--
Paul Mc Cann
An ex potential customer put off by bad manners
ben...@my-dejanews.com
>... My initial post made no reference to your toys
Oh goodie. Someone regurgitating recent Usenet history - my favorite pasttime.
How can I pass this up? ;^)
Paul's wrong about his post not making reference to TS-Aligner, as you'll soon
see.
> ...
> The guy was making an enquiry about setting up gauges. I was offering him
> a tip on how to set up his mitre gauge.
Wrong. The original inquiry was not about "setting up gauges," such as a
"mitre gauge." It was about "set-up gauges," such as "TS-Aligner." While the
wording difference is subtle, the difference in kind of "gauge" is large. Got
it now?
Since he mentions it more than once, here's Paul's original reply:
: In article <369257...@kbp.com>, m...@kbp.com says...
: snip>
: >
: > Aaron J. Lemchen wrote:
: > >
: > > Does anyone in this newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up
: > > gauges such as Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc. If you do, please inform
: > > of your experiences with these items.
: > >
: >
: To date simplest way I've found to set up a table saw mitre gauge or a
: saw with a sliding table is with a large off cut of ply or whatever.
:
: Rip one edge keeping the ply tight to the mitre gauge, rotate the piece
: 90 degrees clock wise and rip again. Do this on all four sides then rip
: about a 2 inch wide strip off the first edge. (Keep the material tight to
: the mitre gauge at all times)
:
: Cut this 2 inch strip in half, rotate one piece and keeping the two
: pieces flat together set them on edge on a flat surface. Any discrepancy
: will show as a difference in height on one end. Remember,when calculating
: a correction, the inaccuracy has been multiplied by four --
> Plain and simple. I made no reference to your toy whatsoever.
As you can see, Paul requoted the original reference to the TS-Aligner. The
thread had "TS-Aligner" in the title. In my book, those constitue references.
> You came on all guns firing, taking insult and umbrage where none was
> intended or given.
No, Ed responded quite well, I thought. Here it is:
] Yes, I've seen this method used in professional shops, not much in home
] shops. Some shops even buy material specifically for test cuts like
] this. It can help in squaring up a sliding table or miter gauge but
] that's all. It doesn't address angles any other adjustments. And, it
] doesn't help in setting up any other machines. It's pretty expensive to
] go cutting up a bunch of plywood every time you need to see if your
] miter gauge or sliding table is square. Do this three or four times and
] you've paid for a TS-Aligner Jr. If you had the TS-Aligner Jr. you could
] check this adjustment as often as you want, which for me is every time I
] use the miter gauge or sliding table. And, you could use it on lots of
] other adjustments and machines.
No insult nor umbrage. He agrees that it's a valid technique for its limited
application.
>...
> > So now it's just an off-cut? When you started this thing it was
> > described as a "large off cut of ply or whatever". When you needed to
> > justify accuracy, it became "a piece of board about 6ft square so any
> > error was magnified over a 72" length". ...
>
> Maybe part of your problem is you don't engage gear before reaching for
> the keyboard. I started of calling it an off cut and I'm still calling it
> an off cut.
Yeah, there's nothing like a 72" x 72" off-cut. That's "real world."
> Sunshine, read my original post, to which you replied in such a boorish
> fashion. You are the one who immediately jumped to the conclusion that I
> was maligning your product.
No, he replied quite thoughtfully, saying that your procedure would work for
its limited application. See above.
> You keep telling me I don't understand how your toy works. Well, if true,
> that can't be my fault.
Coming from someone who wasn't able to discern the difference between setting
up a gauge and a set-up gauge, I think we're able to decide for ourselves
who's fault it is that you don't understand how the TS-Aligner works.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ed Bennett
> Wrong. The original inquiry was not about "setting up gauges," such as a
> "mitre gauge." It was about "set-up gauges," such as "TS-Aligner." While the
> wording difference is subtle, the difference in kind of "gauge" is large. Got
> it now?
Holy Cow! I missed this completely. Thanks for pointing it out
Bennett. So this is why Paul has had so much trouble in this thread.
He completely misunderstood the entire topic. Perhaps he did not
"engage gear before reaching for the keyboard". I suppose I would owe
him an apology if he hadn't proceeded to do exactly what I accused him
of (launching into these malicious attacks on my products). He even
changed the title of the thread! Would this be considered "a case of
the real unpleasant person poking through"? I think so!
Paul Mc Cann
> ben...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Wrong. The original inquiry was not about "setting up gauges," such as a
> > "mitre gauge." It was about "set-up gauges," such as "TS-Aligner." While the
> > wording difference is subtle, the difference in kind of "gauge" is large. Got
> > it now?
>
> Holy Cow! I missed this completely. Thanks for pointing it out
> Bennett. So this is why Paul has had so much trouble in this thread.
> He completely misunderstood the entire topic. Perhaps he did not
> "engage gear before reaching for the keyboard". I suppose I would owe
> him an apology if he hadn't proceeded to do exactly what I accused him
> of (launching into these malicious attacks on my products). He even
> the real unpleasant person poking through"? I think so!
>
> Ed Bennett
> e...@primenet.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner
>
> Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
>
using a possible troll to promote his own product.
On this basis I refused to continue using the product name.
--
Paul Mc Cann
Paul Mc Cann
This is my last word on this subject (honest).
I'm afraid from where I stand not only did Ed Bennet not get to the game,
he never even got the tickets.
For a manufacturer/seller of a product to indulge himself in the manner
he has done so, does neither him nor his product any good whatsoever. Its
akin to a store owner having a humdinger of a row with a customer in
front of a store full of customers. Regardless of who is right its a
situation where the owner cannot win. Any victory for him , if there can
be such a thing, is bound to be pyrrhic.
By the law of averages he has annoyed as many people as I have by
our indulging in hectoring rhetoric.
We both of course are convinced we alone are right.
But the fact is Paul Mc Cann is nobody to anyone in this group, so what
they feel about me is irrelevant, whereas Mr Bennet has to make his
living from the very people who read this group and what they feel and
think about him should be important to him.
So while he may have scored a few points I would hazard a guess he had
lost much more than he has gained.
--
Paul Mc Cann
Paul Mc Cann
says...
> tp...@iol.ie (Paul Mc Cann) wrote:
> >... My initial post made no reference to your toys
>
> Oh goodie. Someone regurgitating recent Usenet history - my favorite pasttime.
> How can I pass this up? ;^)
>
> Paul's wrong about his post not making reference to TS-Aligner, as you'll soon
> see.
You're still determined to misread. As you conclusively prove below MY
posting (i.e.) My contribution to the subject, made absolutely no
reference to your namesake's toy.
>
> > ...
> > The guy was making an enquiry about setting up gauges. I was offering him
> > a tip on how to set up his mitre gauge.
>
> Wrong. The original inquiry was not about "setting up gauges," such as a
> "mitre gauge." It was about "set-up gauges," such as "TS-Aligner." While the
> wording difference is subtle, the difference in kind of "gauge" is large. Got
> it now?
Are you sitting comfortably children ?
Todays lesson is a simple one of reading and understanding the English
language.
Ready ?
Bennets toy is a set-up gauge which is used for setting up things.
Got that ?
Two or more of them can be referred to as either "set up gauges" or
"setting up gauges" .
O/K down the back there ? Sure hope you Bennets were paying attention
today.
An intelligent reading of what I said makes this obvious. Your
interpretation of it equally obviously shows you are just scrabbling
around in an attempt to make cheap jibes.
Please make some attempt to read what is being written instead of trying
to be smart.
As I've said before my intention was to contribute a tip I had recently
learned. I did not malign the toy in this initial innocent addition .
> Since he mentions it more than once, here's Paul's original reply:
>
> : In article <369257...@kbp.com>, m...@kbp.com says...
> : snip>
> : >
> : > Aaron J. Lemchen wrote:
> : > >
> : > > Does anyone in this newsgroup have any experience with dedicated set-up
> : > > gauges such as Master-Gauge, TS Aligner, etc. If you do, please inform
> : > > of your experiences with these items.
> : > >
> : >
> : To date simplest way I've found to set up a table saw mitre gauge or a
> : saw with a sliding table is with a large off cut of ply or whatever.
> :
> : Rip one edge keeping the ply tight to the mitre gauge, rotate the piece
> : 90 degrees clock wise and rip again. Do this on all four sides then rip
> : about a 2 inch wide strip off the first edge. (Keep the material tight to
> : the mitre gauge at all times)
> :
> : Cut this 2 inch strip in half, rotate one piece and keeping the two
> : pieces flat together set them on edge on a flat surface. Any discrepancy
> : will show as a difference in height on one end. Remember,when calculating
> : a correction, the inaccuracy has been multiplied by four --
>
>
> > Plain and simple. I made no reference to your toy whatsoever.
>
> As you can see, Paul requoted the original reference to the TS-Aligner. The
> thread had "TS-Aligner" in the title. In my book, those constitue references.
Thats because you're either as thick as a 2 x 4 or you, like your
namesake, are determined to misread what I wrote. Far from proving your
point this disproves your point
Very large snip .
I've no intention of regurgitating previous postings. Only a moron
labours under the impression that discussions are static and never move
forward, and only a moron would indulge in this oh-so-boring newsgroup
technique of selectively re-quoting from previus postings in the fond
belief none of us is capable of re-reading the originals and spotting the
parts that didn't suit your argument and which you have of course
omitted.
But then your initial comments said it all about you.
Sad that you get your kicks from surfing Deja News, some of us have real
lives to live.
Paul Mc Cann
Duke of URLs
>No, this is the case of a suspicious b*****d suspecting that someone was
>using a possible troll to promote his own product.
At the risk of becoming wedged between the Bennet(t)s in this thing
I've never known Ed to take this tact and he is a long standing
contributor to the group. Would be strange if all of a sudden he
needed to be whacked with the Marketing 101 Klown HammerŽ.
By the way, I hope you'll pardon my moronic snipping of the original
message. Besides, it's on DejaNews and I prefer the more readable
less bandwidth wasting look.
Keith Bohn
mat...@st.james.net
wrote:
>changed the title of the thread! Would this be considered "a case of
>the real unpleasant person poking through"? I think so!
...and this is pleasant?
I took a peek at the site. The products match the personality:
overinflated and useless. The products will appeal to anyone dumb
enough to buy a micrometer at a grossly overinflated price to check
accuracy for cutting wood. You can cut metal to a fine degree of
accuracy when toolmaking, but to expect to cut wood to that same
degree is ludicrous. The material itself defies such accuracy. You
can set your blade for less than $10 and a bit of skill (Yes, that
part is a necessary requirement for fine woodworking.) These products
are for nerds who haven't a clue, and who want everything done for
them with no effort on their part, and have no real understanding of
the material with which they are working.
BTW the photographs are not that informative. There is no clear
indication of how the tool works, except to imply *extreme* accuracy
(not needed) due to the presence of a micro-gauge. ..nonsense. Anyone
paying the several hundred dollar price for this would better waste
their money at Lee Valley. At least there you can return the yuppie
junk you might have bought by mistake.
Fine woodworking is an art.
John.
Ed Bennett
> No, this is the case of a suspicious b*****d suspecting that someone was
> using a possible troll to promote his own product.
>
> On this basis I refused to continue using the product name.
Gee, and I thought that you had already concluded definitively that I
was not "savvy" enough to do such a thing ("Well as I said, if I thought
you had enough savvy............you obviously don't"). And you said
this *AFTER* you decided to change the subject of the thread. Care to
explain? I think that my first response to this thread ("I'd be happy
to answer any questions you have...") pretty clearly indicates that I
had no intention of "manufacturing" a long drawn out flame war to
promote my products.
You've as much as admitted to having a pre-supposed bias against my
products even before your first response in this thread ("...I never
really believed it was something that could justify its existence in the
REAL world."). You've amply demonstrated that you can't (or don't want
to) understand how my products work. It's clear to me that you've now
dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of without admitting the
truth. And, it would seem that you have an aversion to doing that. The
deeper you get, the more ridiculous you look. You're not making me or
my products look bad, you're just making yourself look like an idiot.
Say whatever you want to, it makes no difference to me because your
credibility is now worthless. I'm done with this and if you had any
sense at all, you'd be done with it too.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Randy Hubbard
As an outside observer, and a regular participant in this NG, I must differ
on your conclusions on this thread about the TS-Aligner Jr.
My take is that your original response seemed to imply that the tool Ed
Bennet sells is of marginal value and that your scrap cut-off was of equal
value and possibly faster than using the TS-Aligner Jr. I couldn't find any
logical info. in your post to substantiate that position other than your own
personal experience.
Then as the thread continued with Ed posting information about his product
that would lend credibility to its accuracy and ease of use, and comparing
the method you originally offered, you appeared to turn this thread into a
personal attack. (This is MY impression of the thread, you may not agree).
Now you somehow conclude that Ed has hurt his company and/or product
reputation by supplying details on his product and discussing the
limitations of your method of alignment with a cut-off. Personally I feel Ed
has remained professional thru the entire thread and has not made any
personal slurs as you have. From what you posted you are a Biz person too,
so I'm surprised you would resort to personal attacks on a person with a
legitimate opposing view providing additonal product information.
I'm sorry to see this thread turn into a personal attack as often happens
when people disagree, but it's my opinion that you were the only one to make
the personal attacks when faced with facts on the TS-Aligner Jr. and
shortcomings of what you believe is an equally acceptable calibration
technique.
Having worked in automotive, metal fab and woodworking for many years, it's
my not so humble opinion that using quality calibration equipment is
extremely important. The TS-Aligner Jr. appears to be a very cost effective
tool for proper accurate alignment of a table saw, and perhaps other tools.
Some folks in woodworking would suggest that a 1/64" is adequate accuracy,
but many times it is not depending on the quality of work you produce and
the size of the materials you are machining. Certainly a 1/64" misalignment
on a tablesaw blade is going to produce unacceptable variation in thickness
on a 4' or 8' cut. You may *get by* with a 1/64" of an inch on a 6" cut but
you may spend a lot of time *compensating* for what appears to be a small
error.
In conclusion I don't think this thread was about promoting Ed's product,
nor do I believe it was about "scoring points". I think it originally asked
specifically about experiences with the TS-Aligner Jr. and deteriorated to a
personal attack because you are not convinced that the TS-Aligner-Jr. has
sufficient merit to pay $100 for it.
I'm sure there are some people who fail to comprehend the importance of
accurate tool set-up and conclude that their work is "acceptable" quality.
There are also people who will go spend $100 on a pair of Nike or Reebok
shoes every 2-3 months but discount the need for precision alignment tools.
These decisions are all based on one's belief and value system. Some people
value quality tools and workmanship, while others value quantity, excess and
or mediocrity. Different values and beliefs lead to a lot of problems,
especially in online discussions. Until people realize the true reason for
their disagreements there will always be unfounded personal attacks and
heated debate which serves no useful value, IMNHO.
Hopefully things will improve in this and other NG's when people take a
little time to appreciate other peoples perspectives may be valid if based
on facts and not just emotion. This would go a long ways toward improving
the quality of posts and eliminate a lot of wasted energy and bandwidth.
Randy
Paul Mc Cann wrote in message ...
>
>
>
Spokeshave
> It's clear to me that you've now dug yourself into a hole
> you can't get out of without admitting the truth.
Don't worry Ed,
It's usually after night falls that the coyote will start gnaing on his leg to
free himself
--
John A. Gunterman... Horse shoeing for cash only.
Visit the New Apprentice Neanderthal Page at:
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/A_N.HTM
John D
I'm new to the group so I won't take sides on this
topic but the one thing I agree with Paul on is
the fact that if you don't stop arguing on this
thread you may win the battle but lose the war.
You said your piece for all to read and he said
his, do you really think there is anything to gain
by you continuing to post to this thread? I wish
you both the best.
--
John D
Remember...always go WITH the grain.
Ed Bennett
>
> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:44:32 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >changed the title of the thread! Would this be considered "a case of
> >the real unpleasant person poking through"? I think so!
>
> ...and this is pleasant?
No, as a matter of fact it's not. Sometimes people need to have their
own words thrown back in their face in order to see that what they are
saying isn't consistent. Unfortunately, in this case even that doesn't
work.
> I took a peek at the site. The products match the personality:
> overinflated and useless. The products will appeal to anyone dumb
> enough to buy a micrometer at a grossly overinflated price to check
> accuracy for cutting wood.
Apart from the personal attack (thanks for your kind words), and the
attack on my customers (it's not a "micrometer", it's a dial indicator),
it's not uncommon for people to think that TS-Aligner Jr. is
overpriced. If you take the time to compare it's price with that of
competitive products (A-Line-It, MasterGage, etc.) you'll see that it
costs about $40 less and delivers much more functionality.
Still, the question persists, is $100 too much to pay for such a
device? Well, start by dividing that retail price in half. That's what
it sells to the catalog resellers for, $50.00 (actually $49.97 since the
MSRP is $99.95). That $50 needs to pay for all the materials (aluminum,
bearings, dial indicator, hardware, 44 pg manual, etc.), machining (most
shops cost this at $50/hr or more), anodizing, assembly, calibration,
packing materials, and overhead (costs that keep the doors open like
utilities, property taxes, mortgage, lease payments, insurance, etc.).
Let's not forget marketing, my 1/8 page ad in AW costs almost $1800 per
issue, and I send out many thousands of literature packages free of
charge, an average of about 10 for every unit sold. Whatever is left
over becomes profit. It amounts to less than $10 per unit.
Still think $100 is a "grossly over inflated price" for TS-Aligner Jr.?
Well then, go and see what price you can get one made for! I doubt you
can find a bona fide machine shop anywhere in the US that will do it for
under $200. Even at that they would probably lose money because it
would only allow four hours worth of labor and not account for any
materials.
People who assume that TS-Aligner Jr. is overpriced are simply
uninformed about actual costs of manufacturing. They don't understand
the product or what it takes to make it. This is not something you can
do in your spare time using a drill press, a file, and a hack saw. If
you don't have a milling machine with digital readout then you don't
have a snowball's chance in hell. The pricing of TS-Aligner Jr. is the
result of intensive cost controls. Nobody has copied it because nobody
else can figure out how to do it profitably. Why don't I just charge
more (like the other products)? First of all, I think that $100 is the
right price point (based on market research). Secondly, I'm a
woodworker too and I can't stand the thought of soaking fellow
woodworkers with "over inflated" pricing. ;-)
> You can cut metal to a fine degree of
> accuracy when toolmaking, but to expect to cut wood to that same
> degree is ludicrous. The material itself defies such accuracy. You
> can set your blade for less than $10 and a bit of skill (Yes, that
> part is a necessary requirement for fine woodworking.)
Nobody has ever said that the goal of these products is to machine wood
to within thousandths of an inch. They are designed to help you align
and adjust your machines quickly and accurately without any trial and
error (like test cuts). I'll be the first to admit that TS-Aligner Jr.
does nothing that you can't do without it. However, don't confuse fine
woodworking skills with fiddling around with your machines, doing test
cuts and other trial and error activities. The $10 solution will likely
cost you a few hours of testing, checking, adjusting, re-testing, etc.
It will probably only work for one specific adjustment. TS-Aligner Jr.
will help you do the same adjustment in less than five minutes and you
won't need to check or test it because you will know that it is right.
You can spend the rest of the time doing woodworking and enhancing your
skills.
> These products
> are for nerds who haven't a clue, and who want everything done for
> them with no effort on their part, and have no real understanding of
> the material with which they are working.
Not at all. These products are for people who want to work with wood
and create beautiful things. But, they don't want to spend all their
time goofing around with test cuts, trial and error, and custom fitting
each and every joint. These things aren't the hallmark of fine
woodworking. Fine woodworking is joints with no gaps. Surfaces that
are flat, square, and smooth. Parts that fit together perfectly.
Designs that are pleasing to the eye. And, most of all, fine
woodworking brings satisfaction and admiration from your work - not
frustration and headache from trial and error.
As for an understanding of the material (wood itself), this has nothing
whatsoever to do with the use of TS-Aligner. TS-Aligner is for setting
up machinery, not cutting wood.
> BTW the photographs are not that informative. There is no clear
> indication of how the tool works, except to imply *extreme* accuracy
> (not needed) due to the presence of a micro-gauge. ..nonsense. Anyone
> paying the several hundred dollar price for this would better waste
> their money at Lee Valley. At least there you can return the yuppie
> junk you might have bought by mistake.
Given the limited nature of my web site (5 MB), I chose to use
attractive rather than descriptive photos. However, I also included a
complete PDF copy of the manual so that you could read all 44 pages and
understand everything about how TS-Aligner Jr. works and what it does.
I want people to know exactly what the product does and how it works
before they buy. I don't want someone to buy it and then discover that
they don't need it.
Obviously you have a dim view of Lee Valley. While their prices might
not be the absolute lowest in the industry, they are considered by many
to be one of the best catalog resellers for woodworking hobbyists. My
resellers also take product back. In fact, Hartville has a *LIFETIME*
guarantee and promises to match any price within 90 days of purchase.
Finally, it doesn't sell for several hundred dollars. It sells for
slightly less than $100.
> Fine woodworking is an art.
Yes, fine woodworking is the art of creating beautiful things from
wood. It is not the art of test cuts. It is not the art of trial and
error. It is not the art of tuning machines. It is not the art of
avoiding certain designs or operations because it's difficult to achieve
precise fit and finish. It is not dictated by your tools or methods.
It is determined by the quality of your work, not the process you used
to accomplish it. It's the results, both in what you produce and in
what it does for your personal life.
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> > Paul wrote:
> > > ...
> > > The guy was making an enquiry about setting up gauges. I was offering him
> > > a tip on how to set up his mitre gauge.
> >
> > "mitre gauge." It was about "set-up gauges," such as "TS-Aligner." While
> > the wording difference is subtle, the difference in kind of "gauge" is
> > large. Got it now?
> Bennets toy is a set-up gauge which is used for setting up things.
> Got that ?
> "setting up gauges" .
>...
That's **EXACTLY** my point, Paul. The original question was about "set-up
gauges." You responded about setting up miter gauges. A miter gauge is NOT a
set-up gauge.
> As I've said before my intention was to contribute a tip I had recently
> learned. I did not malign the toy in this initial innocent addition .
> {big snip}
> I've no intention of regurgitating previous postings.
I think the juxtaposition this snip makes speaks volumes. On one hand, Paul
wishes to argue the past. On the other hand, Paul wishes to forget the past.
> ...and only a moron would indulge in this oh-so-boring newsgroup
> technique of selectively re-quoting from previus postings...
The only selective requoting is the Orwellian rewrite going on in your head. I
took great pains to requote the ENTIRE first two replies in this thread.
> Sad that you get your kicks from surfing Deja News, some of us have real
> lives to live.
From the high quantity of low quality posts from you, it appears you would
know as much about real lives as you do about aligning tablesaws.
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> he never even got the tickets.
The players on the field don't *need* tickets to get in. ;^)
> By the law of averages he has annoyed as many people as I have by
> our indulging in hectoring rhetoric.
And such is the reason why many in the business stay off Usenet. In a forum
such as this, the drive-by shooting of a long time contributor can create
mayhem. Ed is one of the few who successfully walk the commerical Usenet
tightrope, supplying informative posts on a variety of subjects.
> But the fact is Paul Mc Cann is nobody to anyone in this group, so what
> they feel about me is irrelevant, whereas Mr Bennet has to make his
> living from the very people who read this group and what they feel and
> think about him should be important to him.
Yeah, the drive-by shooter knows he'll be dead before he's 25 anyway, so he
figures he's got nothing to lose. Drive-by shooters keep many decent people
off the streets, just as your kind chase many decent businesspeople off of
Usenet.
> So while he may have scored a few points I would hazard a guess he had
> lost much more than he has gained.
A good community rallies around those who have been maliciously attacked
without provocation. At least, that's what I tried to do.
Lou Fernandez
Paul Mc Cann <tp...@iol.ie> wrote:
<long discussion deleted>
>Well from where I sit it was your plain boorish ill-manners that DID, not
>would, put off a potential customer.
>
>Yep I'll still call it arrogance, and bad manners, and bad customer
>relations, and an inability to read and understand what has been written.
>
>At the very least, and to be more charitable than you deserve, you suffer
>from bad communication skill.
>
>You not only lost the battle, you lost the war.
Um, Paul,
To have lost the war, a majority of the readers of rec.woodworking would
have to feel the same way about Ed Bennett and his products that you do.
Don't flatter yourself and your rhetorical skills.
Many of us feel Ed provides both valuable products and valuable advice.
I think you are losing both the battle and the war and you should quit
now.
...Lou
--
Louis F. Fernandez Sequent Computer Systems
lfern...@sequent.com Beaverton, OR 97006-6063
Duke of URLs
>A good community rallies around those who have been maliciously attacked
>without provocation. At least, that's what I tried to do.
So true, so true...
Keith Bohn
P.S. Hey Ed, put me down in the "still wants a TS-Aligner" column.
Michael J. Miller
Put me in the "I have one and its darn well worth it" column. Mr. Bennett's
presence on the newsgroup adds value. Hope this little war doesn't hurt him
at all. Wish him well.
- Michael Miller
Rick Fox
Duke of URLs <b...@execpc.com> wrote in article
<78k40f$t...@newsops.execpc.com>...
> After toasting Paul (TS-mAligner) Mc Cann, Bennett wrote:
> >A good community rallies around those who have been maliciously
attacked
> >without provocation. At least, that's what I tried to do.
>
> So true, so true...
>
> Keith Bohn
>
> P.S. Hey Ed, put me down in the "still wants a TS-Aligner"
column.
>
Add me to the list, as soon as I get a tablesaw/fence worthy of
it...
Also Ed, I admire your professional demeanor and restraint.
For those who think that fine tools are overpriced, remember the
words of Uncle Versey...
"No, it *doesn't* cost to much - You just can't afford it!"
Rick.
Unknown
>On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:44:32 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>changed the title of the thread! Would this be considered "a case of
>>the real unpleasant person poking through"? I think so!
>
>...and this is pleasant?
>
>I took a peek at the site. The products match the personality:
>overinflated and useless. The products will appeal to anyone dumb
>enough to buy a micrometer at a grossly overinflated price to check
>accuracy for cutting wood. You can cut metal to a fine degree of
>accuracy when toolmaking, but to expect to cut wood to that same
>degree is ludicrous. The material itself defies such accuracy. You
>can set your blade for less than $10 and a bit of skill (Yes, that
>part is a necessary requirement for fine woodworking.) These products
>are for nerds who haven't a clue, and who want everything done for
>them with no effort on their part, and have no real understanding of
>the material with which they are working.
>
>BTW the photographs are not that informative. There is no clear
>indication of how the tool works, except to imply *extreme* accuracy
>(not needed) due to the presence of a micro-gauge. ..nonsense. Anyone
>paying the several hundred dollar price for this would better waste
>their money at Lee Valley. At least there you can return the yuppie
>junk you might have bought by mistake.
>
>Fine woodworking is an art.
>
>John.
>
John:
There is a substancial differance between yuppie junk and something
of good value and design. It appears that you are perhaps confused
about what this tool actually provides for. It saddens me how quickly
you are to attack the manufacturer personally as well as his product
without a clue as to how it even works.
Perfect material finish, less strain on motors, reduced blade wear
and greatly decreased chances of kickback are merely byproducts
of having a perfectly tuned machine. I think everyone here knows full
well that it would be a waste of time crafting something from wood
dealing in thousandths of an inch.
This tool deals with machinery NOT material! Meanwhile maybe you
should contemplate the differance between a micrometer and a dial
indicator whilst inhaling the smoke boiling up from your blade that's
probably many thousandths out from your fence and miter slot.
Remember John, it really is ok to ask questions when one doesn't
understand how something works. Getting medieval on someone out of
pure ignorance merely shows how big of a moron you are......
You mention that fine woodworking requires skill, you're 100%
correct. Fine machine setup however, requires the proper tools and
for me Ts-Aligner is definately one of them.......Chris
JB
Why don't we ever hear about the TS-Aligner Senior? And if there's no
TS-Aligner Senior, why isn't it just called the TS-Aligner? Most tool people
usually want the big-daddy-more-power version of something (argh, argh,
argh) rather than the little baby version anyway.
JB
Ed Bennett
There is a TS-Aligner Sr., it's the original TS-Aligner. It's really
designed (and priced) for industrial use. This group (being primarily
focused on home-shop and amateur woodworking) tends to be a little too
price sensitive for the Sr. People readily claim that the $99.95 Jr. is
overpriced so I think the nearly $300 Sr. would likely set them off all
the more.
Those that are interested in the "big-daddy-more-power" version can see
it on my web site as well! There are plenty of very serious amateurs
that own one.