Re: Design for my garage shop
Bill
Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the current
thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some of the
suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even learning a bit
about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v line is powered by
two 120v lines! : )
I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used by
an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside and
put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former, the
latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough. Haven't
done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a few days ago.
I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on one
side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The side
which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation, other
electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about "messing"
with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.
My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?
BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6. Plugs
in the ceiling would be convenient..
Thanks for listening,
Bill
Bill wrote:
> At my site linked to below is a almost-to-scale model (pdf and
> SketchUp) of the 20' by 20' garage
> shop I am trying to assemble, as viewed from the omitted garage door.
> Ignore the water purification system in the corner ; )
> The workbench design and tools are mostly accurate only to size.
> The BS has a mobile base (not shown), the TS will get one too.
> Besides for the 240V outlet on the one wall, there is 120V outlet on
> each wall (I think
> I should check and see whether they are wired on one circuit).
You need more outlets. The more the better but at least 3 per wall IMO - I
hate cords strung everywhere. At least two circuits, more better.
The TS in the center is good but you need power for it. As I said, I hate
cords strung everywhere so the outlet for my TS is in the ceiling. There
are both 240v and 120v. Yes, a cord hangs down but at least it isn't always
getting stepped on.
Be sure you have at least eight feet in front of and behind the TS.
You'll undoubtedly be adding bench top tools which implies more benches.
When I build same I incorporate electrical outlets into them so that other
tools or adjacent benches will have conveniently placed outlets.
You need an area to store stuff...sheet goods, lumber, work in progress,
etc.
--
dadiOH
Delbert Freeman
Not having seen your shop, I don't see why you would have any problems.
You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ( But then so can/does 120V. If you are old
enough, you remember when all plugs only had two prongs.) While your
"could" split a 120V line off your 240V, I would not do it. You
mentioned you had 120V inside the shop, just run it to your current 240V
box (having run the 240v line, of course). You can do this by merely
tying another length of Romex cable to your existing outlet and running
it to the outside box, replacing the 240v socket, which you have already
moved inside, and weatherproof cover plate with ones for a 120v socket
and "bingo!"
As for your lighting - the more the better, I would definitely upgrade to
6, or maybe even 8 4' fixtures.
You mentioned "Code." That depends on where your live. Here in Alabama,
such mods are very common WITHOUT an inspection. However, for those of
you who live in more governmentally restrictive and union influenced
states, check with your local woodworkers for their advice. (Going to
the local government will invariably give you a "YES" answer, whereas
your woodworking buddies will tell you the truth. ;-) )
For what its worth.
Deb
dpb
...
> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...
To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
or no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
associated ground, _no_ neutral.
Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need
four) utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the
120V (components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is
tied directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a
"neutral". Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground,
not neutral and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.
To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
"phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
power.
--
Bill
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?
I've done a bit of reading, so I'm not as naive as I was a week ago, but I
was surprised to learn:
"240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
> leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
> the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
> difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
> (being AC) measures 120V to a neutral.
I have also learned about 3-phase power and the correspondance to induction
motors so this makes sense to
me in that context--expecially in that the hot lines to coils in the motor
will be hooked up in parallel rather than in series as in 120v
(that is the most sophisticated statement I can make about this matter at
this point and I offer it only as an indication of my level of preparedness
which is weak due to limited experience. I expect I can do this project if
I proceed cautiously).
I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.
Thank you,
Bill
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message
news:hnipk0$694$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
dpb
> Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
installing
> "4-wire" outlets if I'm planning to purchase new 220v tools from
> Delta or Grizzly, correct?
Not for "ordinary" 240V outlets, no. The four-wire connection is for
things like appliances that have both 240V and 120V loads that _used_ to
share the grounding conductor for the 120V neutral. A power saw, etc.,
that is just a 240V motor load doesn't have any use for the 120V and so
doesn't need anything other than the usual 3-wire 240V.
Used to be stuff like drill presses, etc., had a 120V accessory light
that was powered by one side of the 240V in a similar fashion but it
seems based on some other postings here that they've quit doing that in
one of two ways -- either no more courtesy light or it requires a 240V bulb.
OBTW, this is for US 120V/240V obviously, the UK and others run 240V as
does the US 120V w/ a single hot/neutral and don't have 120V routinely
(which is why ordinary US appliances are of essentially no value over
there, of course... :) ).
...
> I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
> lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
> wiring at the BORGs.
...
I better let somebody else recommend recent books rather than guess --
I'm so much an old fogey the most recent thing I have dates to the 80s
maybe at the latest and may well be 20 yrs older than that, even, I'm
not sure... :)
I know most of the biggest new restrictions in the NEC simply by word of
mouth; I also tend to ignore most of them here on the farm and in the
shop figuring if it's been good enough for 50 years or so it couldn't
have been _too_ bad... :) That, of course, isn't to be taken as a
recommendation against following Code in new work...
--
Swingman
> Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
> "4-wire" outlets if I'm
> planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?
Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one
from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
for safety and code compliance.
The "four wire" cables/installations you mentioned are used for 220/240v
appliances (like stoves and dryers) that are also equipped with timers,
lights, etc, and that operate on 120v.
That said, there might be the ocassional woodworking tool that requires
120v also for lights and/or speed control circuits, etc ... so do your
homework before attempting to wire.
If you have one of these 4 wire circuits and don't need the extra wire,
then simply use the two hots wires, usually black and red (which
can/should be verified at the c'bkr) and the ground wire; and put a wire
nut/tape on the end of the neutral/white wire in the receptacle.
NOTE: some 220/240v circuits use "2 wire w/ground".
In this case the white, neutral, wire can be used as one of the two
necessary hot wires but it must be clearly marked on both ends, at the
c'bkr and the receptacle (generally with a wrap of black tape), so that
those coming after you know it is indeed being used as as a "hot" wire.
> I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
> lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
> wiring at the BORGs.
Most of those are well worth the price paid for a DIY'er. Don't confuse
yourself with learning about 3 phase power unless you have a need; take
your time, understand and think about what you're doing and don't do it
until you do ... it is not a bad idea for a home/shop owner to turn off
the power to the ENTIRE structure when doing electrical work (and if you
can lock up the service panel so that only you have access while doing
the work, so much the better).
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>
>Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
>back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the current
>thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some of the
>suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even learning a bit
>about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v line is powered by
>two 120v lines! : )
It isn't. A 120V line is half of a 240V line. ;-)
>I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used by
>an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside and
>put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former, the
>latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough. Haven't
>done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a few days ago.
If there are four wires here, you can simply put a subpanel in its place and
wire 120 or 240 circuits out of it. You will be limited to the current
supported by the wire size.
>I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on one
>side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The side
>which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation, other
>electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about "messing"
>with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.
>
>My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
>Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?
If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?
>BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6. Plugs
>in the ceiling would be convenient..
Fluorescent?
Bob AZ
> >> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. �Unlike
> >> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
> >> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...
>
> > To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little or
> > no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associated
> > ground, _no_ neutral.
Bill
Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.
So please get some more learning.
Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.
Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.
If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.
Bob AZ
Bill
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Mt2dnZCljoIOwQDW...@giganews.com...
> On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
>> installing
>> "4-wire" outlets if I'm
>> planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?
>
> Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
> total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
>
> The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one from
> each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
> wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
> and code compliance.
Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?
BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
on the outside
was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
welding.
My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
for. My thought was to
put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
wall that would support
other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
later if desired.
Additionally, I'd add another 120v line for the same wall (outlets about 4
feet apart) and provide another
120v line for use by the workbench (tools).
Currently, my garage lights and outlets share a line with with the kitchen
outlets, and it is nice that a pair of
garage lights come on with the flip of a switch from the kitchen. I may add
another line for the
ceiling which would support 4 florescent lights and for whatever tool might
be convenient to plug in there.
So, that would proivde me with a total of 3 120v lines and 2 240v lines for
tools and would leave me with 3 empty slots in my junction box. Some person
dedicated two 120v lines to power 2 separate bedroom ceiling fans (seems
like a waste). Powering them from other existing circuits is probably not
worth the bother since I don't know how to easily do it. Powering them
together with one circuit may be worth considering, if necessary! If
nothing else, it would give me something to do in my free time after I
finish grinding and epoxying the floor. ; )
SWMBO is ready to see furniture being made! ; ) She doesn't see this as
all being part of the process.
Every time I come back here I think this through a little further..I'm going
to print this out so I don't forget! ; )
Thanks,
Bill
Bill
"Bob AZ" <rwats...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a8f12aed-6573-43cc...@l12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> >> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines.
> >> ?Unlike
> >> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
> >> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...
>
> > To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
> > or
> > no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
> > associated
> > ground, _no_ neutral.
I'm sorry MS-Outlook6 does such a poor job of formatting my reply. I typed
after
the dashes.
Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.
So please get some more learning.
Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.
-------------
I just went and looked at it with a flashlight--125v, 30-Amps, "for
Travel-trailer
use only". The plug shape made me think it was 220...
Maybe the line would be suitable for a dedicated DC. I need to learn more
about that outlet.
Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.
----
Yes, I know little more than that I have a 3 year old (due to hail damage)
200 amp service
and a 220 with 50 amp breakers, which was used for welding (which I assume
suggests
a certain level of integrity).
If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.
---
Bob, I had not thought of adding a subpanel. I will need to learn more
about the implications of that.
Thank you for your reply. -Bil.
Bob AZ
dpb
> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Mt2dnZCljoIOwQDW...@giganews.com...
>> Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
>> total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
>>
>
>
>> The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one from
>> each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
>> wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
>> and code compliance.
>
> Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?
_NO!!!_
That's what I said earlier and Swing just reiterated -- the ground for a
240V-only motor/appliance/heater/whatever is _purely_ a safety ground.
Remove it and the operation of the device will be totally unaffected.
The only purpose it serves is to ground the case in the event of a fault
that would somehow otherwise energize it.
The circuit is completed between the two legs -- remember, this is AC
and my description of the way in which the voltages are generated as
being tapped from different points on the transformer so one leg is
positive while the other is negative (at the peaks, since the driving
voltage is a sine wave they're both varying continuously but always with
this same 180-degree lag of one relative to the other). Owing to that,
one is always positive with respect to the other (except at the instant
of crossing, of course, and w/ a varying amplitude that is in RMS terms
the 240V) and the current flows from the higher to the lower thru the
device, the direction and magnitude at any time depending on that
varying potential and the load characteristics. Hence the ground in the
240V-only case never sees any current flow at all and can be dispensed
with except for the safety reasons.
The difference is in the split-voltage 120/240V case where there's a
device of both voltages on three-wire service. Then, since the 120V
device _does_ have to have a return, the ground conductor also serves
that role. As noted earlier, that is what the NEC has now outlawed
requiring 4-conductor service to keep the 120V neutral and the safety
ground separate to serve their individual functions.
>
>
> BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
> and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
> on the outside
> was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
> welding.
>
> My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
> for. My thought was to
> put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
> wall that would support
> other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
> would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
> with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
> later if desired.
...
The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric
heat). The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a
circuit protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious
reasons if you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break
despite my previous comments :) ) ).
I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be
a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use
(Code is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any
given size breaker),
b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
subcircuit
--
dpb
> Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
> here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
> pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
> complex than what has been mentioned here.
But those details are of absolutely no concern for the subject. The
level of detail that explains what he has at his panel is more than
adequate for now...
--
Bill
> Bill wrote:
>> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:Mt2dnZCljoIOwQDW...@giganews.com...
> ...
>
>>> Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
>>> total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one
>>> from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
>>> ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
>>> for safety and code compliance.
>>
>> Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?
>
>
> _NO!!!_
>
Okay, I got it now! I think we only studied DC circuits in electronics
class in H.S. ; )
I didn't realize the elevated-sophistication of 240v power compared to
120v...
> The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
> have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric heat).
> The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a circuit
> protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious reasons if
> you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break despite my
> previous comments :) ) ).
>
> I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
> would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be
>
> a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use (Code
> is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any given size
> breaker),
>
> b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
> w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
> subcircuit
>
I like option (b) if I can power the subpanel with the 50 amp line. Thank
you for pointing
out the issue beween the 240V outlets and the 50A power line. I'll take a
really close
look at what type of outlet is on it now (and I'm not sure if welders use a
special 50A outlet or not).
Thank you for your help!
Bill
Bill
>>My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
>>Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?
>
> If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?
It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.
>
>>BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
>>Plugs
>>in the ceiling would be convenient..
>
> Fluorescent?
Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!
--Bill
Bill
> The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
> have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric heat).
> The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a circuit
> protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious reasons if
> you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break despite my
> previous comments :) ) ).
>
> I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
> would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be
>
> a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use (Code
> is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any given size
> breaker),
>
> b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
> w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
> subcircuit
dbp,
Following up on your hints, I came to learn that a service outlet offering
240v
50A service is different than one offering 20A or even 15A service (although
the 20A outlet, 6-20 is compatible with 6-15). The Grizzly G-0690 TS I am
considering has a 6-20 plug (NEMA 6-20P). ; )
What a day.
Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from
the main panel? I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.
Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and
20A
120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? As you
mentioned earlier,
I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold in terms of actual usage.
Thank you for the lesson!
Bill
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>
>>>My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
>>>Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?
>>
>> If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?
>
>It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.
That is pretty low, but I wouldn't mess with it unless you have to move/rewire
it for some other reason.
>>>BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
>>>Plugs
>>>in the ceiling would be convenient..
>>
>> Fluorescent?
>
>Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!
:-)
Nonny
Let's just say that I have a bit of experience as an electrician
wiring homes in the 60's, as a builder and as a woodworker.
However, I can also screw up and am not ashamed to admit it.
When I wired my own shop, I pulled in a 60a line to a load center
in my shop from my main household breaker box. I then got a
6-circuit little load center box and connected it up without much
thought. The box had 3 breakouts on the left and 3 breakouts on
the right. It was only when I began installing some tools that it
hit me like a ton of rocks: that's just 2 normal DP breakers and
2 SP breakers. In my own case, it was a simple task to pull out
the little box and substitute in a 12 circuit box with 6 knockouts
on each side. The little box became a load center on one of the
attics.
--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?
Lew Hodgett
"Nonny" wrote:
> When I wired my own shop, I pulled in a 60a line to a load center in
> my shop from my main household breaker box. I then got a 6-circuit
> little load center box and connected it up without much thought.
> The box had 3 breakouts on the left and 3 breakouts on the right.
> It was only when I began installing some tools that it hit me like a
> ton of rocks: that's just 2 normal DP breakers and 2 SP breakers.
> In my own case, it was a simple task to pull out the little box and
> substitute in a 12 circuit box with 6 knockouts on each side. The
> little box became a load center on one of the attics.
-----------------------------------------
Lowest cost, highest flexibility as follows:
125A MLO (Main Lug Only) 12/24 (12-1" poles/24;1/2" poles)
Load Center equipped with a 2P-60A Main c'bkr kit, neutral bar,
and insulated ground bar.
The above has enough capacity for almost any shop including
a fairly good sized commercial shop.
Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
If you are going to work on a tool, padlock the disconnect switch
in the OFF position with a padlock that has only ONE KEY,
which is in your pocket.
The above is a standard industrial safety practice.
Simple, neat, and low cost.
Lew
Bill
"Nonny" <some...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:kwjnn.18682$ND2....@newsfe05.iad...
> Just as a FWIW, let me admit to a minor boondoggle I did long ago. Let's
> just say that I have a bit of experience as an electrician wiring homes in
> the 60's, as a builder and as a woodworker. However, I can also screw up
> and am not ashamed to admit it.
>
> When I wired my own shop, I pulled in a 60a line to a load center in my
> shop from my main household breaker box. I then got a 6-circuit little
> load center box and connected it up without much thought. The box had 3
> breakouts on the left and 3 breakouts on the right. It was only when I
> began installing some tools that it hit me like a ton of rocks: that's
> with 6 knockouts on each side. The little box became a load center on one
> of the attics.
>
> --
> Nonny
> When we talk to God, we're praying,
> but when God talks to us,
> we're schizophrenic.
> What's the deal?
>
Nonny, Thank you for saving me from learning that lesson the hard way!
Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is interested:
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm
Bill
Bill
dpb
...
> Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from
> the main panel? I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.
That's cool...
> Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and
> 20A 120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? As you
> mentioned earlier, I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold
> in terms of actual usage.
No, that's what subpanels are for -- just size it for the number of
circuits of the type you want/need and make it's service breaker the
same or smaller than the feed. If it's close enough, you can (I think)
get by w/o the local breaker/disconnect but it's certainly more
convenient and I'd likely not scrimp...
Good luck, it ain't rocket science; most of the Code is simply
formalizing what is common sense; it just takes somebody to point out
what that commonsense is for the first time and NEC is the standard.
The self-help books are pretty good in general at separating the code
legalese and turning that into what actually needs doing...
--
keit...@gmail.com
> Bill wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from
> > the main panel? I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.
>
> That's cool...
>
> > Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and
> > 20A 120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? As you
> > mentioned earlier, I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold
> > in terms of actual usage.
>
> No, that's what subpanels are for -- just size it for the number of
> circuits of the type you want/need and make it's service breaker the
> same or smaller than the feed. If it's close enough, you can (I think)
> get by w/o the local breaker/disconnect but it's certainly more
> convenient and I'd likely not scrimp...
If they're in different locations I believe you're required to have a
local disconnect. This can easily be accomplished by inserting a
breaker, rated for the wire between the sub and main panels, into the
panel and feeding it "backwards" (the electrons don't know the
difference). This breaker should be marked clearly as the disconnect.
> Good luck, it ain't rocket science; most of the Code is simply
> formalizing what is common sense; it just takes somebody to point out
> what that commonsense is for the first time and NEC is the standard.
> The self-help books are pretty good in general at separating the code
> legalese and turning that into what actually needs doing...
Yup.
Swingman
> Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is interested:
>
> http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm
Do what Lew said ...
I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!
If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
"insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
from the breaker box and installed therein).
Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
attention to what Lew said!
Got the point yet?
If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said! :)
Robatoy
I think he should do what Lew said to do.
Lee Michaels
"Robatoy" <counte...@gmail.com> wrote
==================
Does that include the installation of the epoxy workstation?
Robatoy
<leemichaels*nadasp...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <counterfit...@gmail.com> wrote
.
.
.
.
.
.
you are mean......*smirk*
Swingman
> I think he should do what Lew said to do.
Y'all go ahead and laugh, now! :)
I don't think it is apparent to the average person just how much
experience and knowledge is behind that information, particularly with
regard to the sub panel choice/type.
Trial and error on this issue can cost the neophyte beaucoup $$ ...
--
Hoosierpopi
a) Try running 12/3 or to all you outlets, isolating the top from
the bottom and adding a switch to the bottom outlets if not to top and
bottom. This will allow you to leave those wall transformers plugged
in 24/7, but turn off power to them when you leave the shop.
b) Duplex outlets in the ceiling can serve ideally for the four
foot fluorescent "shop lamps" sold at Lowes, HD, etc for about $9. And
you can do the switched approach on these as well in case you have a
need for a DROP CORD approach to a tool - assuming your shop would not
be usable with the lights off e.g. nto enough window area to let in
sufficient daylight for working.
2. The wall on the house side might prove a treasure trove of points
to secure power, telephone line, cable TV, water, sewer access. Is the
floor of the shop even with that of the house/kitchen? Hey, how about
a shop sink/eyewash station replete with drain?
Bill
> On 3/15/2010 11:00 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
>> I think he should do what Lew said to do.
>
> Y'all go ahead and laugh, now! :)
>
> I don't think it is apparent to the average person just how much
> experience and knowledge is behind that information, particularly with
> regard to the sub panel choice/type.
>
> Trial and error on this issue can cost the neophyte beaucoup $$ ...
>
Okay, Okay, I WILL DO as Lew suggested--and gladly too! : ) : )
He wrote:
Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not
as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be
powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?
Thank you,
Bill
Bill
Hoosierpopi wrote:
> 1. Never enough outlets.
>
> a) Try running 12/3 or to all you outlets, isolating the top from
> the bottom and adding a switch to the bottom outlets if not to top and
> bottom. This will allow you to leave those wall transformers plugged
> in 24/7, but turn off power to them when you leave the shop.
For extra measure of safety?
>
> b) Duplex outlets in the ceiling can serve ideally for the four
> foot fluorescent "shop lamps" sold at Lowes, HD, etc for about $9. And
> you can do the switched approach on these as well in case you have a
> need for a DROP CORD approach to a tool - assuming your shop would not
> be usable with the lights off e.g. nto enough window area to let in
> sufficient daylight for working.
Yes, I like this idea. Switches here make good sense. I'd use more
overhead-lights except that electric garage door opens right to the
ceiling and the pull-down "stairway to the attic" blocks another good
location for a light fixture.
>
> 2. The wall on the house side might prove a treasure trove of points
> to secure power, telephone line, cable TV, water, sewer access. Is the
> floor of the shop even with that of the house/kitchen? Hey, how about
> a shop sink/eyewash station replete with drain?
>
You are right. It's a shame not to have (more than 1) outlet on that
wall. The opposing wall I can tear down, and no one will care. The
kitchen wall is sure to be full of insulation--and if it's insulated
like the attic, it will be "full of fluff/lint" that looks like it came
out of a vacuum cleaner. What do you think of the idea of cutting
a 8" opening most of the length of the wallboard to install several
electric boxes, and then replacing it?
I'd like to add outlets outside the garage too... As long as I'm making
a mess, I may as well make it a big one! ; )
Thanks,
Bill
Bill
"Lew Hodgett" <sails...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4b9dcbd4$0$12490$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> Lowest cost, highest flexibility as follows:
>
> 125A MLO (Main Lug Only) 12/24 (12-1" poles/24;1/2" poles)
> Load Center equipped with a 2P-60A Main c'bkr kit, neutral bar,
> and insulated ground bar.
>
> The above has enough capacity for almost any shop including
> a fairly good sized commercial shop.
>
> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
>
> If you are going to work on a tool, padlock the disconnect switch
> in the OFF position with a padlock that has only ONE KEY,
> which is in your pocket.
>
> The above is a standard industrial safety practice.
>
> Simple, neat, and low cost.
>
> Lew
Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:
Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably have.
Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such as "12
spaces, 24 circuits".
If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24 circuits
would be to use 1 Hot
and a 1 Common for every circuit. Is it typical for someone put two such
circuits under a single breaker--probably
not in a shop environment, huh? Even "lighting" seem too important to mess
around with.
So you use 2 spaces for a 2P-30A branch For Each 240v stationary tool in the
load center. So with four 240v tools
one is basically left with room for 4 or 8 120v lines. This raises the
question: Which is better--two circuits with 1 outlet each from 1 breaker or
one circuit with 2 outlets on one breaker? I think the former--for the
same reason Lew only wants one 240v tool on each line. This creates a new
question for me: in what sense does a 15A breaker support two different
circuits? Specifically, does
it only support the sum of the amperages of the two circuits?
I try to learn Something New everyday. Today was certainly no exception!
: )
Got to hit the hay for tomorrow's another day!
Bill
Mike Marlow
>
> Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:
>
> Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
> it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably
> have.
> Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such
> as "12 spaces, 24 circuits".
> If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24
> circuits would be to use 1 Hot
> and a 1 Common for every circuit.
In 120v circuits you would always use one Hot and one Neutral, plus a ground
for every circuit, so if what you are trying to say is that you can only get
24 circuits by wiring only for 120v, then you would be correct. You get 24
branch circuits by using mini breakers instead of full size breakers.
Mini's will give you two breakers in the space of one. Each half of a mini
gets wired the same way as a full sized breaker - a hot wire to the breaker
and the neutral and ground to the respective buss bar(s).
> Is it typical for someone put two
> such circuits under a single breaker--probably
> not in a shop environment, huh? Even "lighting" seem too important
> to mess around with.
A branch circuit is the outlets/devices that are controlled by a breaker.
That circuit can run to multiple outlets, multiple devices, or it can be
dedicated to just one outlet or device. With that in mind, you don't want
to run multiple branch circuits off of one breaker. You calculate the load
that a given circuit will potentially exhibit to the breaker, and determine
how many outlets/devices to string off that breaker. Lighting is fairly
straight forward since you pretty much know the load of every light - you
know the wattage of the lights you'll be using. Outlets are less straight
forward because the many types of things one may plug into an outlet make
for an undefined load. People generally stick with some common techniques
such as 8 outlets (or less depending on preference) per branch circuit in a
shop type environment. There's no real science behind that though.
>
> So you use 2 spaces for a 2P-30A branch For Each 240v stationary tool
> in the load center. So with four 240v tools
> one is basically left with room for 4 or 8 120v lines.
Correct.
> This
> raises the question: Which is better--two circuits with 1 outlet each
> from 1 breaker or one circuit with 2 outlets on one breaker?
It is best to think about how you will be using the area. It really serves
no purpose to install dedicated outlets all around your shop. It's not
likely that you will be using tools simultaneously such that you need 20A at
each outlet. You'd be better off wiring branch circuits of 4-8 outlets per
circuit. However - you cannot run multiple branch circuits from one
breaker. So - think about your expected usage and then wire in branch
circuits accordingly. My guess is you'll find that wiring 4-8 outlets per
branch circuit works out just fine.
> I
> think the former--for the same reason Lew only wants one 240v tool on
> each line. This creates a new question for me: in what sense does a
> 15A breaker support two different circuits? Specifically, does
> it only support the sum of the amperages of the two circuits?
It does not.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Swingman
> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
>
>
> Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not
> as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be
> powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?
You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
each machine in your home shop.
Is your shop in a garage?
dpb
> On 3/15/2010 3:04 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
>> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
>>
>>
>> Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not
>> as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be
>> powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?
>
> You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
> each machine in your home shop.
And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...
For a home, casual-use workshop as I gather this is, one or perhaps two
30A 240V circuits will be enough w/ outlets judiciously placed for the
major equipment you now have and some consideration given to what you
think you may want to add in the foreseeable future. You, as an
individual can never be using more than one at a time so, other than the
one tool, the only other loads active simultaneously will be the
potential DC and maybe a compressor.
Circuits for electric heat, etc., should, of course, be separate.
The "non fused disconnect" at each tool is, in ordinary terms, the plug
on the end of the power cord.
--
Swingman
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:
>>
>> Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
>> it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably
>> have.
>> Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such
>> as "12 spaces, 24 circuits".
>> If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24
>> circuits would be to use 1 Hot
>> and a 1 Common for every circuit.
>
> In 120v circuits you would always use one Hot and one Neutral, plus a ground
> for every circuit, so if what you are trying to say is that you can only get
> 24 circuits by wiring only for 120v, then you would be correct. You get 24
> branch circuits by using mini breakers instead of full size breakers.
> Mini's will give you two breakers in the space of one. Each half of a mini
> gets wired the same way as a full sized breaker - a hot wire to the breaker
> and the neutral and ground to the respective buss bar(s).
Mike is spot on as usual.
There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:
When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.
Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head. :)
Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you
put it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You
can do this visually.
On new houses I've even had licensed electricians do this (hopefully
accidentally) on more than one occasion. It is a PITA to be called on a
Thanksgiving morning when everything but the oven on a dual fuel stove
works. DAMHIKT
Dave In Texas
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:q9SdnY2_h-sMEALW...@giganews.com...
> You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to
> each machine in your home shop.
When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs the
dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor (neither of
which ever runs congruently). How often do you run more than one device at
a time?
Additionally, I ran four 120v circuits, two for power tools with
each wall having a mix of both circuits and a single circuit each for the
freezer and a "beer box."
Dave in Houston
Swingman
> And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
> production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
> a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...
There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.
At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.
Robatoy
Proper beer boxes are 550-V 3-phase, no?
Dave In Texas
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:PImdnY014LyxCQLW...@giganews.com...
> There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
> which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:
>
> When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
> 220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
> ... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.
>
> Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head. :)
>
> Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you put
> it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You can do
> this visually.
And, I've got three-phase! Which I've never been able to utilize . . .
except once - by stupidity.
12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp single pole
into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe how bright a 15
watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the only casualty.
Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made Sunday house calls.
And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.
Dave in Houston
dpb
> On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>
>> And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
>> production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
>> a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...
>
> There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
> circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
> "dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.
>
> At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
> have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
> once were.
That _is_ one of the later NEC items I do tend to ignore in
non-wet/indoor locations like a shop...probably the most common one , in
fact. :)
Bill should, of course, follow local Code requirements (disclaimer :) )
--
Bill
> 12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
> circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp single
> pole into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe how
> bright a 15 watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the only
> casualty. Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made Sunday
> house calls. And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.
>
> Dave in Houston
That reminds me of when, in my wee years, I made a "single-bulb x-mas
light bulb tester". 110v is just too much for one of those little
guys... Of course, it worked. ; )
Bill
Bill
In case I was too subtle, the bulbs that don't blow up in your face are
bad! : )
>
> Bill
Bill
Having recently purchased my home, I think it is the case that our local
code (central IN) requires GFCI on outlets within a short distance of a
sink/bath except older homes may be grandfathered out of this
requirement. However, needless to say, I am not an expert.
Bill
eclipsme
> Swingman wrote:
>
> And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
> production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
> a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...
>
> For a home, casual-use workshop as I gather this is, one or perhaps two
> 30A 240V circuits will be enough w/ outlets judiciously placed for the
> major equipment you now have and some consideration given to what you
> think you may want to add in the foreseeable future. You, as an
> individual can never be using more than one at a time
just a small caveat to this statement, as I had to consider this in my
shop. Both a given power tool, perhaps the table saw, and the dust
collection system will probably be on the same time. Be sure to add both
loads together to make sure a circuit is large enough. Oh, and don't
forget that your air compressor will more than likely kick on at this
inopportune time as well.
Harvey
Mike Marlow
> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:q9SdnY2_h-sMEALW...@giganews.com...
>
>> You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated
>> circuit to each machine in your home shop.
>
> When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs
> the dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor
> (neither of which ever runs congruently). How often do you run more
> than one device at a time?
The compressor is the one I'd consider being hardwired by itself. There are
a lot of times when I'm using another tool while the compressor is running.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load
> center which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini
> breakers:
>
> When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
> 220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot
> leg ... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool
> whatsoever.
<snip>
-----------------------------------------
Only if you try to cut corners.
A 2P c'bkr has a built in key that prohibits installing the c'bkr in
an improper location.
OTOH, if you try to cut corners by installing a pair of 1P c'bkrs with
a handle tie, it is definitely possible to incorrectly install the
c'bkrs and get only 120V.
Another problem is that you lose the common internal trip feature
found in a proper 2P c'bkr.
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
problem load without affecting other loads.
A definite safety and flexibility advantage for minimal cost.
Lew
dpb
Uhhh, _excuse_ me??? The part you so judiciously snipped continued...
"so, other than the one tool, the only other loads active simultaneously
will be the potential DC and maybe a compressor."
For 30A/240V, 10A each will be in the neighborhood of 3hp FLA motors. I
submit for the home shop dude just getting going as is OP he'll have far
more than enough...
If'en he's going w/ 5hp PM and an Oneida central DC, well ok but I don't
get that feeling here, do you???
--
Swingman
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>
>> There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load
>> center which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini
>> breakers:
>>
>> When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
>> 220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot
>> leg ... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool
>> whatsoever.
> <snip>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Only if you try to cut corners.
>
> A 2P c'bkr has a built in key that prohibits installing the c'bkr in
> an improper location.
Not necessarily with all brands ... I'm looking at a box of NEW GE 2p's
from HD that will fit in any two slots in a 12/24 panel.
Absolutely no doubt about it ...
Swingman
Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected
circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough, find
most woodworking "shops" these days. :)
Bill
<snip>
> I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
> less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
> only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
> problem load without affecting other loads.
>
...
> Lew
When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
plug it into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking
about using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
Bill
Bill
> Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected
> circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough, find
> most woodworking "shops" these days. :)
>
iwires post from "mike_holts" forum, copied and pasted below
(it makes interesting reading...). --Bill
I will post the code rule for GFCIs in basements below but the short
version is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles must have GFCI protection.
You have a few options.
1)Install a 2 pole 120/240 GFCI breaker at the panel and protect both
the 120 and 240 outlets.
2)Use a standard 2 pole breaker at the panel go to your 240 outlets
first then install a GFCI outlet at the first two (each leg of the 3
wire cable) 120 receptacles and protect all receptacles down line with
those GFCIs
3)Use a standard two pole breaker at the panel and go in any order with
the 120 and 240 outlets but install a GFCI outlet at each 120 volt location.
IMO keep the 240 outlets on a separate breaker, by the time you jump
through hoops to do this you will have spent as much as running a 2 wire
home run for the 240 outlets.
Here is the code rule.
210.8(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in
the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(5)Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished
basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended
as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two
appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in
normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is
cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed
fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have
ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Swingman
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
>> less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
>> only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
>> problem load without affecting other loads.
>>
> ...
>> Lew
>
>
>
> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
This is a different issue than Lew's quote above.
I could have read his replied to post wrong, but it looks like Lew
"assumed" that I was talking about using two single poles c'bkrs in
place of a single two pole circuit breaker; and likewise when he was
assuming that you can't insert a 2 pole circuit breaker into any two
slots in any panel designed for using half height c'bkrs.
... if it is what it reads like, he is wrong in both assumptions. If
not, then I apologize in advance for reading it wrong.
> I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
> with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
> plug it into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking
> about using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
> outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.
keit...@gmail.com
A 240V circuit is simply two 120V circuits on opposite sides of the
transformer. Nothing is further than 120V from ground.
Swingman
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected
>> circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough,
>> find most woodworking "shops" these days. :)
>>
>
> iwires post from "mike_holts" forum, copied and pasted below
> (it makes interesting reading...). --Bill
>
>
>
> I will post the code rule for GFCIs in basements below but the short
> version is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles must have GFCI protection.
I trust you are not interpreting that to mean that ALL 15 and 20 amp 120
volt receptacles must have GFCI protection?
BTW, what's a "basement"? :)
Bill
> On 3/16/2010 3:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>> I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
>>> less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
>>> only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
>>> problem load without affecting other loads.
>>>
>> ...
>>> Lew
>>
>>
>>
>> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
>> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
>> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
>
> This is a different issue than Lew's quote above.
yes, I know, but I thought it was related and I was curious about the
value of additional switches.
> Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
> all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
> be doing your own electrical work.
Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...
Bill
Swingman
> Swingman wrote:
>> Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
>> all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
>> be doing your own electrical work.
>
> Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
> mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...
Only 120v use, but I carry one of these in the toolkit in my truck at
all times ... and in my pocket during electrical inspections in houses
I'm building. Mostly to insure that circuits are live and wired
correctly, but also to verify to an inspector that a circuit is indeed
GFCI protected (you don't always know where the GFCI receptacle upstream
is located)
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtmodelID=3941
Lee Michaels
"Bill" wrote
>
> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
>
problem is pretty straightforward.
> I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
> 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
> into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
> using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
> outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
>
Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in gold.
They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.
When I moved into my present house, an idiot friend of the previous owner
assured me the dryer outlet was OK. It wasn't wired up when we first looked
at it. I told my wife I was going to check it out, but she did not think it
was important. She started the dryer and quickly became alarmed. I don't
really recall exactly what happened but my honey assured me that the bad
outlet was doing something mean to her dryer and she wanted it fixed RIGHT
NOW!
I checked it out with my multimeter and referenced an electrical book I had.
Sure enough, it was wired incorrectly. They just stuck the wires in there
in a random order. I corrected that problem by measuring across the various
wires until I found the right combination. Then I wired the outlet
appropriately. The dryer worked fine.
But it didn't stop there. The facuets to the washer leaked. So I had to
replace them. I found the best quality faucets out there and put them in.
They have worked fine since. I don't know where they found those junk
faucets that was on there before.
Cuz when you move into a new house, the missus wants her things fixed first.
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> Not necessarily with all brands ... I'm looking at a box of NEW GE
> 2p's from HD that will fit in any two slots in a 12/24 panel.
>
> Absolutely no doubt about it ...
----------------------------------
Go back and check those GE c'bkrs again.
If they fit, they have made a MAJOR design since I was involved with
them.
Makes no difference whether they are 2P full size or 2P half size
c'bkr modules, they both have a common internal trip and a mechanical
interlock to prevent insertion into an incorrect location.
BTW, should see the words "common internal trip" molded into the case
of a 2P device.
Lew
Lew Hodgett
incorrectly in GE load centers.
Can't swear as to whether the interlock works with non GE manufactured
load centers.
Lew
-----------------------------------------
"Lew Hodgett" <sails...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4ba01708$0$13663$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
Swingman
I'm not at the shop right now but I already know that I'm absolutely
certain about this ... did it personally when I installed the sub-panel
in the old shop; and have had it happen two other times in new houses in
contractor installed panels; there is no doubt whatsoever about that.
My shop has a GE panel, not sure about the other two.
Doing remodels I've had to chase down compatible c'bkr too many times to
know that all of them are not created equal and aren't interchangeable
from panel to panel for the most part ... how long has it been since
you've been "involved with them"?
Bill
Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not for use
with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".
So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of the
device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly grounded, then it
must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is one of those things I need
to read up on...
Thank you,
Bill
Bill
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4ba0094e$0$24368$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
> "Bill" wrote
>>
>> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
>> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
>> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
>>
> If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
> problem is pretty straightforward.
>
>> I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
>> 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
>> into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
>> using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
>> outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
>>
> Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in
> gold. They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.
I have a Radio Shack "8-Range Multitester " (bought new in 1979) : AC/DC
Voltage .... 15V, 150V, 1000V
This is the same thing you are talking about, right?
Bill
Lee Michaels
"Bill" <Bill_...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> I have a Radio Shack "8-Range Multitester " (bought new in 1979) : AC/DC
> Voltage .... 15V, 150V, 1000V
> This is the same thing you are talking about, right?
>
just fine. I went to electronics school long time ago and used the old
vacuum tube models. Those things were heavy and hot. But digital
electronics have made these things available to everybody for a modest cost.
Swingman
> "Swingman"<k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:17idnS2XSLv_ZwLW...@giganews.com...
>> On 3/16/2010 4:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>> Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
>>>> all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
>>>> be doing your own electrical work.
>>>
>>> Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
>>> mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...
>>
>> Only 120v use, but I carry one of these in the toolkit in my truck at all
>> times ... and in my pocket during electrical inspections in houses I'm
>> building. Mostly to insure that circuits are live and wired correctly, but
>> also to verify to an inspector that a circuit is indeed GFCI protected
>> (you don't always know where the GFCI receptacle upstream is located)
>>
>> http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtmodelID=3941
>>
>
>
> Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not for use
> with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".
Sorry, I grabbed the wrong link. This is the one I have:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-2000&CAWELAID=220252111
And a cheaper one that does the same thing:
http://inspectusa.com/receptaclegfci-circuit-tester-110vac-ectgfik-with-indicators-p-123.html
The GFCI outlet/receptacle itself (it has its own, built-in test circuit).
The other one is used to test that same built-in test circuit in the
GFCI receptacle, but FROM those receptacles which are on the
"downstream" side (those coming off the "load" terminals on the GFCI
receptacle).
> So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
> downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
> is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of the
> device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly grounded, then it
> must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is one of those things I need
> to read up on...
You can use a GFCI receptacle in an outlet by itself, or use it as the
first one inline in a circuit (power in connected to the "line"
terminals; power out connected to the "Load" terminals) to protect the
other receptacles "downstream" of it.
Read up on it ....
Swingman
That'll work ... just make sure you set it higher than the expected
voltage your are attempting to test.
Mike Marlow
>
> Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not
> for use with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".
> So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
> downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
> is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of
> the device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly
> grounded, then it must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is
> one of those things I need to read up on...
>
You need to run that question past again Bill - it makes no sense as
written. I'll take a stab at what I think you might be asking. Your
outlets (devices) are always "directly" grounded - even if ground fault
protected. GFCI's simply separate the neutral from the ground at the device
so they can monitor leakage. The device is however, still very much
grounded, and all downstream outlets are grounded in the usual manner, which
is to say that they are installed just like any other outlet which is not
ground fault protected.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Bill
"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:9ce7b$4ba0410f$6215aa16$30...@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> You need to run that question past again Bill - it makes no sense as
> written.
Sorry about that.
I'll take a stab at what I think you might be asking. Your
> outlets (devices) are always "directly" grounded - even if ground fault
> protected. GFCI's simply separate the neutral from the ground at the
> device so they can monitor leakage. The device is however, still very
> much grounded, and all downstream outlets are grounded in the usual
> manner, which is to say that they are installed just like any other outlet
> which is not ground fault protected.
Thank you! Between you and Swingman, you helped me understand
that a lot better. So the GFCI at one outlet is able to monitor the
"leakage" downstream...
Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the "one
hand
in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.
Bill
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> mmarlo...@windstream.net
>
Bill
"Bill" <Bill_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hnph0...@news7.newsguy.com...
> Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
> How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
> a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
> "one hand
> in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.
>
> Bill
I just took the back of the meter off and check and the meter has an 850k
resister behind the 1000v input socket.
Wikipedia say P (watts) = V^2 / R where V is the voltage and R is the
resistance (in Ohms). BTW, Wikipedia seems
like a great place to do additonal reading on the matter....
Does that mean that for 240v, my meter is absorbing 240^2 / 850k = .0678
Watts (of "heat"), or
is this even close (in an RMS sense)?
Bill
Lee Michaels
"Bill" wrote
>
> Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
> How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
> a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
> "one hand
> in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.
>
handle the load as long as it is set for the proper voltage. The important
thing is to just touch what you need tested with the test leads. You don't
use your fingers or other parts of your anatomy. You use the test device in
exactly the way it was intended to be used.
One old techie trick is to place one lead on one wire (or whatever) and
slowly move the other lead in very deliberately. This is to make sure you
don't touch anything other than the lead to the wires. Remember, people
don't get zapped from using the equipment properly. It usually happens when
they brush up against something while being a little too casual with how
they move their hands.
It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and more
serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due caution when
working with the higher voltages.
But you are not going to get shocked by using the test equipment peoperly.
It is when you subsitute body parts for the test leads is when you get into
trouble. And have some kind of reference material handy so you know what the
voltage needs to be from one point to another. It it all tests out OK, your
machines will be happy.
Bill
>
> "Bill" wrote
>>
>> Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my
>> tester.
>> How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
>> a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
>> "one hand
>> in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.
>>
> You apparently have a 1000 volt tester. It has the internal circuitry to
> handle the load as long as it is set for the proper voltage. The important
> thing is to just touch what you need tested with the test leads. You don't
> use your fingers or other parts of your anatomy. You use the test device
> in exactly the way it was intended to be used.
Thank you for the safety reminders--I take them seriously.
I can't believe that they sell this equiptment to just anyone that walks in
off
the street---doesn't SawStop make a voltimeter??? ; )
Bill
Bill
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4ba05033$0$24371$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
> out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
> more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
> caution when working with the higher voltages.
No wonder I'm a GALOOT... : )
Bill
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> My shop has a GE panel, not sure about the other two.
>
> Doing remodels I've had to chase down compatible c'bkr too many
> times to know that all of them are not created equal and aren't
> interchangeable from panel to panel for the most part ... how long
> has it been since you've been "involved with them"?
-----------------------------------------
End of '82.
The GECPDD (G E Circuit Protective Devices Department) made a big deal
out of the fact that their c'bkrs COULD NOT be incorrectly installed
in their load centers.
Molded case circuit breakers are a very mature business.
Even plug-in GFI c'bkrs have been around since the '70s
About the only product additions or improvements have been an increase
in interrupt ratings for the resi market.
If you take a look at a 2P GE Bkr, you should see about a 3/32 dia pin
that runs between the two cases.
You should be able to see it in the crack between the cases.
It is the mechanical interlock to prevent incorrect installation.
Just for grins, if you get a chance, open up your shop panel and see
if you can move a 2P device ONE space up or down and see if you can
install it.
Nother option.
Next time you buy a GE load center, try to incorrectly install a 2P
c'bkr while it is still on the bench before installation on the job.
Lew
Bill
I copied & pasted below from:
http://www.handymanclub.com/Projects/Project.aspx?id=20483
(We've given The HandyMan Club a bad rap here--but they had a decent
article).
I quote:
"When determining where to install a subpanel, be sure to follow the
National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. In front of the subpanel, you’ll
need free working space that’s 36 in. deep and at least as wide as the
subpanel (or 30 in. wide — whichever is greater). The space above the panel
must be completely open to the structural ceiling (no shelving, etc.), and
the space below must be open to the floor (no lawnmowers, trash cans,
workbenches, etc.)."
Am I to understand from this that if a subpanel is mounted flush on a wall,
that nothing is to be place in FRONT of it (ever)? It comes down to where
it is written: "the space below must be open to the floor"---does that refer
to the space directly below the subpanel or include the 36" in front of it
mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I'd have what--a fire violation?
This may conflict with one of our "valuable space axioms" that Roy, IIRC,
mentioned before.
Just Curious,
Bill
Swingman
> "Swingman" wrote:
> Just for grins, if you get a chance, open up your shop panel and see
> if you can move a 2P device ONE space up or down and see if you can
> install it.
Of course you can, Lew ... that's what I've been saying the whole time.
Took less than 10 seconds to find this "trouble shooting" tale for the
EXACT problem I was warning Bill to watch out for with some panels that
take half height c'brks:
Things have changed in 18 years ... not all for the good.
Swingman
> space. This allows a two pole breaker to hit a single phase.
Swingman
> I copied& pasted below from:
> http://www.handymanclub.com/Projects/Project.aspx?id=20483
> (We've given The HandyMan Club a bad rap here--but they had a decent
> article).
>
> I quote:
> "When determining where to install a subpanel, be sure to follow the
> National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. In front of the subpanel, you’ll
> need free working space that’s 36 in. deep and at least as wide as the
> subpanel (or 30 in. wide — whichever is greater). The space above the panel
> must be completely open to the structural ceiling (no shelving, etc.), and
> the space below must be open to the floor (no lawnmowers, trash cans,
> workbenches, etc.)."
>
>
> Am I to understand from this that if a subpanel is mounted flush on a wall,
> that nothing is to be place in FRONT of it (ever)? It comes down to where
> it is written: "the space below must be open to the floor"---does that refer
> to the space directly below the subpanel or include the 36" in front of it
> mentioned earlier. Otherwise, I'd have what--a fire violation?
It's a 10-4 that you would have an "electrical code violation",
That said, when the inspector leaves most home owners go ahead and make
a clothes closet out of that "machine room" .... if you now what I mean. :)
Lew Hodgett
>
> Of course you can, Lew ... that's what I've been saying the whole
> time.
>
> Took less than 10 seconds to find this "trouble shooting" tale for
> the EXACT problem I was warning Bill to watch out for with some
> panels that take half height c'brks:
Went back and did a little homework on the GE.com site.
Molded case, thermal/magnetic, plug in c'bkrs are still using the same
catalog number nomenclature they were for at least the last 40 years
as follows:
=======================
THQP*##
H = 10,000A interrupt capacity
P = 1/2" module
* = Number of poles (1,2 or 3)
## = Amp rating
=======================
THQL*##
H = 10,000A interrupt capacity
L = 1" module
* = Number of poles (1,2 or 3)
## = Amp rating
=======================
The catalog numbering system for Load Centers is also the same as it
was 40 years ago.
You couldn't incorrectly install a GE c'bkr in a GE load center back
then and the fact the that same catalog numbers are still being used
today tells me nothing has changed.
If there was a change, there would be new catalog numbers.
This has been an old wife's tale for as far back as I can remember,
but you simply can not incorrectly a GE c'bkr in a GE load center.
BTW, it's been 28 years since I've looked at this stuff, not 18, but
hey, time flies when you are having fun.<G>
Lew
Lew Hodgett
"Mike M" wrote:
> GE makes whats called a peanut breaker where two breakers fit in a
> 1"
> space. This allows a two pole breaker to hit a single phase.
That would be a THQP c'bkr which is fully rated.
It DOES NOT allow a THQP2## c'bkr to be incorrectly installed in a GE
load center.
Lew
Swingman
I've got a lot of respect for your electrical knowledge, but you do need
to try this before you continue on with this contention ... as you said
yourself, Lew ... it's been 28 years and things change.
Swingman
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:36:47 -0500, Swingman<k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
>> circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
>> "dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.
>>
>> At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
>> have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
>> once were.
>
> You may be spot on this. I only do commercial industrial so I'm not
> right up on residential but I believe all garage circuits require gfi.
> There are exceptions for appliances and dedicated circuits. May be a
> drawback garage shops, but I think most repair shops are now required
> to have gfi circuits.
We are required in most municipalities where I build to have GFI
protection on all "wet area" receptacles ... this includes bathroom,
utility rooms with sinks, kitchens, garages, sun rooms with drains, and
all exterior receptacles.
We are also required to have AFCI protection on all dwelling bedroom
circuits.
On the latter, I've had homeowners who are selling a home I built when
AFCI wasn't required, or even available, and during the sale process
failed a buyer's third party inspection because lack of AFCI protection,
I've gone back and had the electrical contractor install them at our
cost ... seems like good business, and a prudent thing to do in this
litigious society.
keit...@gmail.com
wrote:
> "Bill" wrote
>
> > When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
> > was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
> > go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
>
> If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
> problem is pretty straightforward.
>
> > I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
> > 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
> > into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
> > using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
> > outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
>
> Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in gold.
> They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.
>
> assured me the dryer outlet was OK. It wasn't wired up when we first looked
> at it. I told my wife I was going to check it out, but she did not think it
> was important. She started the dryer and quickly became alarmed. I don't
> really recall exactly what happened but my honey assured me that the bad
> outlet was doing something mean to her dryer and she wanted it fixed RIGHT
> NOW!
>
> I checked it out with my multimeter and referenced an electrical book I had.
> Sure enough, it was wired incorrectly. They just stuck the wires in there
> in a random order. I corrected that problem by measuring across the various
> wires until I found the right combination. Then I wired the outlet
> appropriately. The dryer worked fine.
Many years ago, my MIL was complaining about getting zapped off the
dryer. Thinking I was smart (an EE student, at the time) I grounded
the case of the dryer to the cold water pipe. That took out a 60A
fuse. Oh, my! I took the dryer apart, then the wall outlet. All was
fine there, but the entrance panel had the red and white wires
swapped. They had been living in the house for six months with the
case of the dryer sitting at 120V! The dryer was running off the
other 120V leg. After, she said that things were drying a *lot*
faster.
> But it didn't stop there. The facuets to the washer leaked. So I had to
> replace them. I found the best quality faucets out there and put them in.
> They have worked fine since. I don't know where they found those junk
> faucets that was on there before.
Contractor specials, no doubt. The same place they found the $.39
outlets.
> Cuz when you move into a new house, the missus wants her things fixed first.
Yup. We bought a new house. I don't know why I thought things would
be different.
Larry Jaques
<Bill_...@comcast.net> scrawled the following:
I don't have the energy for that any more. I've become a
Normanderthal, but I won't give up my ryoba or azebiki or my
Satanleys.
RE: the subject, I -prefer- getting zapped or zinged by 240. It has
enough voltage to throw you off it if need be. When you touch 240, you
KNOW you've been zapped, bygolly. BTW, none of my zaps has been more
than a few milliseconds, and usually through nitrile gloves when
working on a hot circuit. I haven't done any 240V arc welding since
that little power sypply testing incident in Engineering, when I blew
the 50A circuit with my screwdriver. That's one blinding flash, lemme
tell ya. No, I wasn't blushing, it was sunburn. That's my story and
I'm stickin' to it.
--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin
keit...@gmail.com
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:36 -0400, the infamous "Bill"
>
>
>
> >"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadasp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:4ba05033$0$24371$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> >> It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
> >> take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
> >> out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and
> >> more serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due
> >> caution when working with the higher voltages.
>
> >No wonder I'm a GALOOT... : )
>
> I don't have the energy for that any more. I've become a
> Normanderthal, but I won't give up my ryoba or azebiki or my
> Satanleys.
>
> RE: the subject, I -prefer- getting zapped or zinged by 240. It has
> enough voltage to throw you off it if need be. When you touch 240, you
> KNOW you've been zapped, bygolly. BTW, none of my zaps has been more
> than a few milliseconds, and usually through nitrile gloves when
> working on a hot circuit. I haven't done any 240V arc welding since
> that little power sypply testing incident in Engineering, when I blew
> the 50A circuit with my screwdriver. That's one blinding flash, lemme
> tell ya. No, I wasn't blushing, it was sunburn. That's my story and
> I'm stickin' to it.
>
> --
> No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
> --Lily Tomlin
Unless you're *really* clever, there is no difference between a zap
off 240V and 120V (in the US). It takes work to get across both
"hots" in a 240V circuit. Don't do that!
Larry Jaques
"keit...@gmail.com" <keit...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
Y'mean I should quit testing for 240 voltage with my tongue? Oh.
OK.
keit...@gmail.com
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:14:18 -0700 (PDT), the infamous
to tell the difference. ;-)
Lew Hodgett
> I've got a lot of respect for your electrical knowledge, but you do
> need to try this before you continue on with this contention ... as
> you said yourself, Lew ... it's been 28 years and things change.
----------------------------------------------
Ya made me do it.
Got up off my dead and dying and found a Lowes in the hood that
stocked GE load centers and c'bkrs.
Home Depot around here does not stock GE load centers.
Grabbed a TLM1212 load center(125 MLO, 12-1 or 24-12") on a bench
along with a THQP220 c'bkr.(2P-20A, 1" wide module).
No way can the mechanical interlock system be defeated to allow a
THQP220 to be fully seated in an incorrect position of a TLM1212,
short of using a 4# drill hammer to coax things along which in the
process creates a pile of junk.
Just for funzies, got a Murray/Seimens out and tried a THQP220.
Forget it.
A THQL c'bkr MAY fit a Murray, but a THQP definitely will not
I will grant you that it may appear that a THQP may be installed
incorrectly, however, it WILL NOT fully seat to make correct contact,
thus it is an incomplete installation.
Being able to only install a THQP2## correctly in a GE load center was
a sales feature 40 years ago, and still is today.
Don't know what hardware you have, but something isn't Kosher.
Lew
Swingman
Sorry you wasted your time by arbitrarily deciding to settle on a
dubious experiment with _one_ panel on a shelf at Lowes to prove your point.
But that's what it was, a waste of time.
Read the following, which CLEARLY addresses my point, _without question_.
Note the first paragraph, which states EXACTLY what I've been saying
(and which you have erroneously taken exception to).
Carefully note the SOLUTION to the problem, which again CLEARLY supports
my previous statements in that regard.
Once again, Lew, and despite your contention, this is NOT an uncommon
occurrence:
It'll be interesting to see if you can find a way to continue to argue
an untenable position ...
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> Sorry you wasted your time by arbitrarily deciding to settle on a
> dubious experiment with _one_ panel on a shelf at Lowes to prove
> your point.
>
> But that's what it was, a waste of time.
>
> Read the following, which CLEARLY addresses my point, _without
> question_.
>
> Note the first paragraph, which states EXACTLY what I've been saying
> (and which you have erroneously taken exception to).
>
> Carefully note the SOLUTION to the problem, which again CLEARLY
> supports my previous statements in that regard.
>
> Once again, Lew, and despite your contention, this is NOT an
> uncommon occurrence:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ygfgzpg
>
> It'll be interesting to see if you can find a way to continue to
> argue an untenable position ...
--------------------------------------------
Don't have a problem with a test sample size of one for a product that
hasn't had a design change in over 40 years.
I basically don't have a problem with what is basically anecdotal the
evidence stated in the article; however, none of it applies to the GE
product line.
The article comes down on the side of not trying to use a pair of 1
pole c'bkrs and a handle tie for a 240V application since it can
squarely bite you in the ass.
Part of the prevention of incorrect c'bkr location has to do with how
the c'bkr contacts the bus.
A THQL (1") utilizes a horizontal bus connection while the THQP (1/2")
utilizes a vertical bus connection which eliminates most non GE panels
from accepting THQP c'bkrs.
As I said earlier, ya can't get there from here.
Lew
Swingman
>> A 2P c'bkr has a built in key that prohibits installing the c'bkr in
>> an improper location.
> I basically don't have a problem with what is basically anecdotal the
> evidence stated in the article; however, none of it applies to the GE
> product line.
You've gone from a blanket statement that it can't be done, to a blanket
statement that it can't be done with a specific brand.
Like I said before, Lew - I have nothing but respect for your knowledge
and experience with electrical matters, but I've personally experienced,
firsthand, that neither of your contentions are entirely correct.
Looks like we'll have to leave it at that ...
Swingman
> Sorry you wasted your time by arbitrarily deciding to settle on a
> dubious experiment with _one_ panel on a shelf at Lowes to prove your
> point.
Lew ... I want to apologize to you for the "tone" in this post and the
direction it's been taking. I regretted the escalation the second I hit
the send button.
Though I have to disagree on this particular issue, I've nothing but the
utmost respect for your knowledge and experience.
mea culpa ...
BTW, this does NOT apply to politics! <g,d & r> :)
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> Lew ... I want to apologize to you for the "tone" in this post and
> the direction it's been taking. I regretted the escalation the
> second I hit the send button.
>
> Though I have to disagree on this particular issue, I've nothing but
> the utmost respect for your knowledge and experience.
>
> mea culpa ...
>
> BTW, this does NOT apply to politics! <g,d & r> :)
----------------------------------------
Accepted as given.
NBD, I chalk it up to your "Big Bad Wolf" mode.
Sometimes you huff and you puff...........
Lew
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> You've gone from a blanket statement that it can't be done, to a
> blanket statement that it can't be done with a specific brand.
----------------------------
My comments were always based on GE product.
Other than GE, how many manufacturers of half size c'bkrs are there?
BTW, Square D is a stand alone since they are unique unto themselves.
Lew
Swingman
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Lew ... I want to apologize to you for the "tone" in this post and
>> the direction it's been taking. I regretted the escalation the
>> second I hit the send button.
>>
>> Though I have to disagree on this particular issue, I've nothing but
>> the utmost respect for your knowledge and experience.
>>
>> mea culpa ...
>>
> ----------------------------------------
> Accepted as given.
>
> NBD, I chalk it up to your "Big Bad Wolf" mode.
>
> Sometimes you huff and you puff...........
LOL ... I know a certain blond that would agree with you without
reservation. :)
Bill
> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
"Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."
This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?
I really feel I am close to knowing everything I will need to wire a
subpanel, some minor but important details concerning wire size, etc., I
can easily look up (I will err on the side of safety).
Meeting all code requirements raises the bar higher. For instance, I
haven't investigated whether one's conduit is expected to covered by
wallboard. Someone suggested that panels and subpanels are supposed to
have a front/backing board for instance (to cover/protect some of the
wiring).
I wish to note that I appreciate the kind, thoughtful and useful help
that I have received here. Learning how to do new things (or even old
things, like constructing a wooden plane) seems to raise my
happiness-quotient. : )
Bill
Swingman
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
>> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
>
> I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
> "Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
> non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."
>
> This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
> have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?
IME, don't even bother with 15 amp circuits, except maybe for lights.
In many locales today at least 12 ga wire is required throughout, and it
is simply too easy to use 12 ga and go with 20 amp c'brks for your 120v
tools.
Not really enough of a cost savings for the ultimate flexibility benefit.
Bill
> On 3/18/2010 11:57 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
>>> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
>>
>> I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
>> "Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
>> non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."
>>
>> This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
>> have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?
>
> IME, don't even bother with 15 amp circuits, except maybe for lights.
>
> In many locales today at least 12 ga wire is required throughout, and it
> is simply too easy to use 12 ga and go with 20 amp c'brks for your 120v
> tools.
That's exactly what I was planning to do--I'm prudently choosing safety
over (false!) economy. I expect that such decisions will nullify such
factors such as a temperature of 10 degrees in the winter and 95
degrees in the summer... But, by all means, please stop me if I expect
something wrongly! :)
BTW, the IM for the 15A saw I was looking at suggests putting the saw on
a 20A circuit.
Bill