Which chisels are best?
John Bonadies
lot of are Freud and Marples. I`d be interested in advise on which brand
is best, or if there are other brands I should consider.
Thanks
John Bonadies
Peter Sibbald
The best chisels i have ever used are Robert Sorby. I have carving
and turning chisels made by Sorby and both are excellent. They are
nicely balanced, easy to sharpen and hold an edge. I have used
several other makes and none compare. That does not mean there are
no other good makes, just that i have not used them. However,
Sorby easily eclipses Marples, Stanley and some of the German
ones i have used.
peter sib...@qucis.queensu.ca
John Bonadies
sib...@qucis.queensu.ca writes:
>peter sib...@qucis.queensu.ca
Peter,
How much do Sorby chisels cost? Who carries them?
Peter Sibbald
there are north american places that carry Sorby chisels however,
i have their "main address" which can probably tell you where your
closest supplier resides:
Robert Sorby, Athol Road, Sheffield S8 0PA, England.
phone: 0114 2554231
fax: 0114 2500675
peter sibbald
mf...@wizvax.net
>From: sib...@qucis.queensu.ca (Peter Sibbald)
>Subject: Re: Which chisels are best?
>Date: 10 May 1995 01:30:52 GMT
>peter sibbald
Woodcraft carries them, as does Garrett Wade. I bought mine from woodcraft,
since they were slightly cheaper. I like them alot.
Bennett Leeds
> The best chisels i have ever used are Robert Sorby.
I own two Sorby chisels, a 5/16" mortise chisel and a 3/8" corner chisel.
I use both, but don't find them to be particularly great chisels in terms
of edge holding ability. I suspect they're softer than they should be.
They're quite easy to sharpen and do get to that Scary Sharp (tm) stage.
With an 8000 grit waterstone the surfaces come out like mirrors. But, they
don't hold an edge as well as the Bahco and Japanese chisels I have.
I was sharpening some chisels last night, and found that during the
honing process, the Sorby steel "felt" just like a Stanley "Professional"
chisel I also honed. That's not too bad - I use my Stanley's when I don't
really care and I'm always surprised at how well they do (but, I'm expecting
less to begin with). Both felt very different from the Japanese chisels I
was also honing (the Japanese chisels required more time and effort).
I've heard that some people complain that their Japanese chisels are too
brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
I realize my statements are not scientific, and I have no facts to back
them up. They're just some subjective opinions I've formed from using them.
I'd be interested in any explanations or contrary experiences.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@mv.us.adobe.com
Joel Gringorten
: I've heard that some people complain that their Japanese chisels are too
: brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
I've posted this previously a long time ago, but it's worth repeating.
Most Japanese chisels I've seen have their bevels ground at too
shallow an angle. This may be due to the fact that in Japan they
tend you use softer woods; I dunno. Increasing the bevel angle
made a huge difference on a Japanese mortising chisel I own for
use in hardwoods. It was self destructing at the original factory
angle. After regrinding with just 5 more degrees of angle, it
became incredibly more durable.
-joel
Kevin Miller
:I own two Sorby chisels, a 5/16" mortise chisel and a 3/8" corner chisel.
:I use both, but don't find them to be particularly great chisels in terms
:of edge holding ability. I suspect they're softer than they should be.
:They're quite easy to sharpen and do get to that Scary Sharp (tm) stage.
:With an 8000 grit waterstone the surfaces come out like mirrors. But, they
:don't hold an edge as well as the Bahco and Japanese chisels I have.
Bennett, two questions:
I've got a fair smattering of the usual ww catalogs but have never seen (or
is it noticed?) Bahco chisels. Can you point us to some, and how do they
compare $ wise?
OK, I lied, three questions:
What is your preferred honing method? I haven't yet decided between
water stones, diamond stones, a mix of both, etc. Any pearls of wisdom
would be interesting to read.
Kevin
Bennett Leeds
> I've got a fair smattering of the usual ww catalogs but have never seen (or
> is it noticed?) Bahco chisels. Can you point us to some, and how do they
> compare $ wise?
Either they're not being made anymore or they're not being imported into
the US anymore. Garrett Wade, Woodline, and Whole Earth Access used to sell
them. They were moderately priced, but I picked up my half dozen or so
real cheap as the above mentioned places sold out their stock some years ago.
If you have a Garrett Wade catalog from, say, 5 years ago there's a brief
description and a picture. They're Swedish, and supposedly the design was
the result of some ergonomic studies. GW points out that they're similar
to Japanese chisels - I'm not so sure about that, especially since the
Bahco's don't used laminated steel and the backs aren't hollow, but maybe
they're talking more about the stout blades and handle configuration.
> OK, I lied, three questions:
> What is your preferred honing method? I haven't yet decided between
> water stones, diamond stones, a mix of both, etc. Any pearls of wisdom
> would be interesting to read.
I have no pearls of wisdom, being a neophyte sharpener myself even after
a few years. I like waterstones much more than oilstones - the coarser
stones feel more aggressive and the finer stones are a finer grit. BTW,
don't be fooled into believing that using a waterstone is somehow cleaner
than using an oilstone - the steel and stone particles that end up in the
water will stain almost anything permanently. Waterstones do wear quickly
but are easily flattened, so this isn't a concern, IMHO.
I use guides on my tools (I have the Veritas and some no-name thing) whenever
possible. You can always tell when I'm sharpening tools since the hair on
the backs of my hands ends up shaved in weird patterns from testing edges. ;^)
I've read a lot of raves about Mr. Lee's new Sharpening book. I took a brief
glance through it in a store and it does seem quite comprehensive, yet it
didn't address the issues I was concerned about. Some microscopic pictures
of edges produced by different stones showed that an 8000 grit waterstone was
best except for an 8000 grit edge that was then stropped. However, there
was no discussion nor illustrations of the technique of stropping, nor did
I find any information on waterstone selection or care. I decided to pass.
I'd love to hear from other people on sharpening.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@mv.us.adobe.com
Paul Gillespie
>
>I've heard that some people complain that their Japanese chisels are too
>brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
>
What type of work do you do with your Japanese chisels? (Paring,
chopping, opening paint cans :-) ) I've heard that the Japanese
chisels are prone to chipping if you use them for chopping operations
in hard wood. (Chopping implies hitting the chisels with a mallet.)
Has this been your experience?
I'm looking into getting another set of chisels to augment the Marples
Blue Chips I already have. I use these to do everything from chopping
dovetails and mortises to final fitting of a joint. (No paint cans.)
I use mostly white oak and cherry in my work. They have performed
well. My only complaint is that I believe they should hold an edge
longer. As I have nothing to compare them to, this is just a feeling.
To try and put a quantitative value on it, if I chopped a mortise
2"x2"x1", I would have to sharpen the chisel. What's the net's
experience? Is this unreasonable? Would a set of Japanese chisels
help? Thanks.
Paul Gillespie
The above opinions are mine. For a small licensing fee, they could be
yours too.
Jim Nelson
some recently at WoodCraft Supply, here in Detritus ( oops, Detroit ), I
went through their entire stock with a square and a straight edge, just to
select registered, and paring, chisels which were, you guessed it, straight
and square in cross section. Some of them were absolutely crooked - and
I guess my advice is to buy in person, be picky, even if it means paying
the local sales tax penalty. And if some of the ones you want don't
measure up, maybe you'll have to wait for their stock to turn over, or find
another supplier.
-regards, jgn
JTWad
The set I got from Garrett Wade a few years ago varied from true to really
rough on the backs, and the 1/2" gets chewed up after cutting only one or
two dovetails in oak.
I'd take the trouble to go after older chisels in reasonable shape:
Stanley #720s or 750s, Buck, or prewar English Sheffield names (including
old Sorbys). Sets are hard to come by in the older ones, but who needs
sets? The wood won't know if your 5/8" and 3/4" are by different makers!
Just my experience--yours may be different.
John Wadsworth
Dave Burnard
mah...@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com wrote:
> In <1995May10.2...@adobe.com>, ben...@mv.us.adobe.com(Bennett
Leeds) writes:
> >
> >I've heard that some people complain that their Japanese chisels are too
> >brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
> >
>
> What type of work do you do with your Japanese chisels? (Paring,
> chopping, opening paint cans :-) ) I've heard that the Japanese
> chisels are prone to chipping if you use them for chopping operations
> in hard wood. (Chopping implies hitting the chisels with a mallet.)
> Has this been your experience?
>
> 2"x2"x1", I would have to sharpen the chisel. What's the net's
> experience? Is this unreasonable? Would a set of Japanese chisels
> help? Thanks.
>
> Paul Gillespie
>
Paul
Bennett (above) was attempting to refute the bum rap that has wrongly
been associated with Japanese chisels here is the US. I first read it
in FWW several years ago, but it had come from somewhere else...
Anyway, it is BS.
I have chopped many mortices with several brands of Japanese chisels in
all kinds of wood, ranging from cedars, firs, hard maples, soft maples,
cherry, oaks, mahogany, and many tropicals. I've never chipped a chisel
while chopping, even through knots... Japanese chisels won't chip unless
you buy crappy ones, or you try to use them as prybars to lever out chips
you really haven't even cut off yet.
The latter is a mistake that many people will make with any type of chisel.
On a softer steel, the edge will just crumple, but on a harder steel you
might actually take a chip out. Either one won't be very sharp afterwards.
I think the last time I chipped one of my chisels was four or so years ago,
nicked a 1/16" off one corner when cleaning out a large mortice in rock
maple. I got greedy and twisted the chisel in hopes of prying off a chip
on the corner of the mortice. :>o I've cut many a mortice since then without
incident.
About your 2x2x1" mortice. Depends on the wood. In oaks, maples, cherrys,
or mahogany you could probably do a few before resharpening. In tropicals
with lots of silicates you'd be resharpening pretty often. Sharpening is
easy for me (by hand - no jigs to adjust etc.) so I don't mind sharpening
a bit more to have a sharper chisel thats cuts cleaner and faster.
If you really plan to chop lots of mortices, don't be cheap when you buy
your chisels. Marples Blue Chips are really only an entry level "serious"
chisel. Have a look at Sorby's, Spahnsagge (sp? - a german make), or at
some of Patrick's hand-me-down beauties. And have a look at Japanese
chisels while your at it, I swear by them, but they're not for everybody.
Cheers,
DaveB
Mike DeLong
> Maybe he thought stropping was so elementary, so as to describe it would
> have been akin to a personal hygiene manual explaining the nuances of wiping
> a booger off your finger onto your pant leg (the same general stroking motion,
> works best on a new, stiff pair of jeans)?? ;^)
>
> O'Deen
>
> Just say Apologies for bathroom humor so early in the week :-).
>
>
Damn! I needed that today ;^)
Thanks O'Deen
Mike
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mike DeLong Voice: (214) 768-2802 |
| Director of Endowment Management Fax: (214) 768-3786 |
| Southern Methodist University Internet: mde...@sun.cis.smu.edu |
| 6425 Boaz Lane Suite 202B |
| Dallas, TX 75275-0193 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Patrick Olguin
[chisel stuff deleted]
>I've read a lot of raves about Mr. Lee's new Sharpening book. I took a brief
>glance through it in a store and it does seem quite comprehensive, yet it
>didn't address the issues I was concerned about. Some microscopic pictures
>of edges produced by different stones showed that an 8000 grit waterstone was
>best except for an 8000 grit edge that was then stropped. However, there
>was no discussion nor illustrations of the technique of stropping, nor did
>I find any information on waterstone selection or care. I decided to pass.
>
>I'd love to hear from other people on sharpening.
As one of the ravers of Lee's "Complete Guide to Sharpening", I spew:
I can't cite the chapter/page number, but I saw/read a good deal on this...
I think. I've been reading so many books lately, I may have them mixed up.
Mr. Law discussed how to make/use a softwood strop, which I did make/use.
Jeepers, Mr. Wilson, did that work nicely!!! I was able to put a mirror
finish on my little Marples gouges, something that was difficult-to-
impossible to do with my water stones (probably my own ineptitude).
Touching-up an edge was as easy as taking a couple of swipes on my wood
strop, and then it was back to carving.
Making the strop was easy. I dug a piece of douglas fir (pine probably would
have been better: tighter grain, softer wood) out of the scrap heap,
and hacked out some grooves with my dull chisels. The nice thing is, the
strop you're gouging out will perfectly match the tool it's supposed to
sharpen. Then, I "colored-in" the gouges, using my Veritas green compound
as sort of a big crayon. Then, I just started uh, er, stropping. The best
description I can give is that instead of a felt wheel turning, while I
held the tool at the perfect angle, I just took a swipe along the honing
gouge, keeping the tool at the desired angle. That's almost all there
is to it. You also have to hone the inside of the gouge. That's easy.
I just flipped each gouge over, and rounded off an edge of the wood scrap.
Then, I was able to hone the inside too. The nice thing about using
a soft wood, is that by exerting a little pressure, you can press the
wood into the exact shape of the profile of your tool.
I found that my initial wood-hones were a little rough, seeing as they
had been cut with dull gouges. After two or three iterations, I had
perfect, reusable softwood strops, which are now proudly hanging up
in the garage.
It's amazing how much metal is removed using this technique, so take it
easy. If you've got a lot of chisels/gouges, I'd recommend using separate
stropping boards, and marking which is which.
This tip, of making a home-made strop was practically worth the price
of admission of Lee's book.
I'll have to bring the book in, and see if there are any other illustrative
instructions on stropping. I'm pretty sure he mentioned that it's easier
to strop from the back side of your grinder/buffer. That is, you want the
wheel spinning away from you. I suppose buffing with a felt wheel counts as
stropping, doesn't it?
Patrick Olguin
You're very kind.
You know, I'd be more proud of my stuff, if I could honestly say I
planned any of it. I'm making this sh*t up as I go. :-)
Have a great day,
Pat
M21...@mwvm.mitre.org
>> >brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
>> >
our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
True Mortising chisels are different than regular chisels. They are
designed to be used to pry our chips. Indeed, not as a prybar, but with
more force than would be appropriate to apply to a paring chisel. The
desing of a fine antique English mortice chisel differs in several ways.
The blade is sharpened at about 35 degrees to leave a safety margin against
chipping. The body of the chisel is very thick, with a pronounced taper, and
the steel is laid on the top of the body in a very thin strip. These chisels
are far superior to anything available today, and you don't need to betray
your country to own one. I have a few for sale now. They are priced at
$40 each post paid, in various sizes. All are ninteenth century, but are in
good working condition.
Bennett Leeds
> >> >I've heard that some people complain that their Japanese chisels are too
> >> >brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
> >> >
> I pains me to hear people openly brag about owning Japanese products, when
> our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
It pains me to hear people openly selling antique tools when our country
is trying to get its manufacturing sector back on its feet. Employ an American
and buy a *new* US made chisel.
;^) - until somebody like Ron Hock comes out with a line of chisels as good
as his line of plane blades.
> True Mortising chisels are different than regular chisels. They are
> designed to be used to pry our chips. Indeed, not as a prybar, but with
> more force than would be appropriate to apply to a paring chisel.
I'm no Japanese tool expert, but I believe that the Japanese use a second
type of chisel, with right angle at the cutting edge, to clean up the bottoms
of mortises without having to resort to prying. I've also heard that this
second chisel is usually used for Shoji, where they want as deep a mortise
as possible for strength, but can't make it a through mortise for aesthetic
reasons. This second chisel enables a proficient shoji maker to make mortises
where the bottom is paper thin.
> The body of the chisel is very thick, with a pronounced taper, and
> the steel is laid on the top of the body in a very thin strip.
I assume you mean that the steel is laminated. If so, your description,
from the thickness to the taper to the laminated construction apply equally
well to Japanese mortising chisels (old and new).
> These chisels
> are far superior to anything available today, and you don't need to betray
> your country to own one.
Like the memory chips in the computer you typed that nonsense on weren't
made in Japan? You should follow your own advice - don't buy a new computer,
buy my old Apple II, that last "insanely great" all US made computer. ;^)
> I have a few for sale now.
Ah, now your motivations become clearer. We should buy an old tool from you
to put money in a middleman's pocket rather than buy a hand made Japanese
chisel and put money in a true craftsmen's (some would call them artists)
pocket.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@mv.us.adobe.com
PS: I've really got nothing against buying antique tools, but Mr. M21605's
attempted guilt trip sales pitch ticked me off.
Chuck
also cost a hell of a lot. Is the price difference worth it in terms of
quality?
Dave Burnard
> >> >I've heard that some people complain that their Japanese chisels are too
> >> >brittle for use in US hardwoods. I've not found that to be the case.
> >> >
> I pains me to hear people openly brag about owning Japanese products, when
> our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
> True Mortising chisels are different than regular chisels. They are
> designed to be used to pry our chips. Indeed, not as a prybar, but with
> more force than would be appropriate to apply to a paring chisel. The
> desing of a fine antique English mortice chisel differs in several ways.
> The blade is sharpened at about 35 degrees to leave a safety margin against
> chipping. The body of the chisel is very thick, with a pronounced taper, and
> the steel is laid on the top of the body in a very thin strip. These chisels
> are far superior to anything available today, and you don't need to betray
> your country to own one. I have a few for sale now. They are priced at
> $40 each post paid, in various sizes. All are ninteenth century, but are in
> good working condition.
No doubt, antique English mortice chisels are wonderful.
However, I hope the unnamed poster forgot to include a few smileys with
his signature line here... If its just flame bait, you can do better. If
its neither of the above, then get a grip.
Equating our horrible trade imbalance with me buying *handmade* chisels is
completely out to lunch. Most of my chisels are made by one man and his
wife.
I pay no middlemen except the shipping company and my local tool merchant.
We need to talk cars and electronics if we want to even make a dent.
By the way, I have a very nice set of *true* morticing chisels. They are
Japanese, from the maker above, same bevel angle, same taper, same
laminated steel, suitable for prying etc. Have you ever seen one in the
flesh? (Well,
not literally IN the flesh...I have and it hurt...but I digress.)
I do agree that if one is going to spend his/her days chopping mortices,
then they may be happier and more productive using morticing chisels.
I use mine. But for dovetails, paring, trimming endgrain, and all the
general uses that chisels have you'll want something else. If I could only
afford one
type of chisel, I would still pick the so called generic "cabinet makers" style,
and add a paring chisel or two as I could afford it.
DaveB
"Proud to be an American"
(despite the fact that we can't make a good chisel anymore)
Raymond E. Miller
>when
>our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
Our trade imbalance is largly from the importation of OIL. While we do
run a deficet with Japan, we also have surpluses with many other
countrys. I don't see how we can expect to balance trade evenly with
each individual country but an overall balance should be possible, if we
can moderate our oil consumption.
Back to woodworking and wood burning stoves>
Ray Miller
Michael D. Sullivan
>M21...@mwvm.mitre.org writes
>> I pains me to hear people openly brag about owning Japanese products, when
>> our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
>> These chisels
>> are far superior to anything available today, and you don't need to betray
>> your country to own one.
So buying Japanese is betraying your country, but buying English isn't?
I might buy M21605's [Lee's?] argument if he was urging the purchase of
Buck Bros. chisels, but Sorby ain't from the U-S-A!
>Like the memory chips in the computer you typed that nonsense on weren't
>made in Japan? You should follow your own advice - don't buy a new computer,
Actually, lots of memory chips are from the USA. Micron (in Idaho) is
highly cost-competitive with the Koreans and Taiwanese; more so than the
Japanese in some cases. And Micron also sells computers; guess whose
chips those computers have inside? Micron also sells chips to Dell and
other US computermakers. The Ron Hock of chips?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Michael D. Sullivan | INTERNET E-MAIL TO: m...@access.digex.net |
| Bethesda, Md., USA | also avog...@well.com, 74160...@compuserve.com |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
D. Van Ess
bit and baulk at paying $15 for a good chisel. This chisel is going to
last forever. Your grandchildren with use it (true, they will probably open
paint cans with it) I have a set of nice Japanese chisels I bought about
10 years ago. I still have them. Any money I might have saved buying
cheaper ones would have long ago blown less perenment.
If it helps buy them one at a time. That way it's only pocket money.
Dave Van Ess
Ed Bennett
: I pains me to hear people openly brag about owning Japanese products, when
: our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
<snip>
* Diversion alert *
Excuse me?
The trade imbalance with the Japanese is a symptom, not a cause of our
bankruptcy. Americans wishing to purchase superior products naturally
shun the poor quality union made garbage in favor of what the Japanese
are offering. That's called the free market system. It means that
companies eventually will pay for screwing their customers. And, as it
has been the case, when the major industries in a nation screw their
customers, the whole nation has to pay.
--
----------
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Inventor of TS-Aligner
(Not an advertisement, just a fact)
Allen D Vogl
Give me a break.
High tariffs on American products going into Japan create the trade
imbalance. It has nothing to do with quality. Individual Japanese
products may or may not be better than a similar product from another
country. It doesn't matter. The imbalance is due to Japan's restrictive
trade practices.
--
adv
adv...@iastate.edu
Ralph Sprang
>
> High tariffs on American products going into Japan create the trade
> imbalance. It has nothing to do with quality. Individual Japanese products
> may or may not be better than a similar product from another country. It
> doesn't matter. The imbalance is due to Japan's restrictive trade
> practices.
>
In the future, you may wish to investigate a bit before making broad incorrect
statements.
Tariffs are a big part of the problem - but it's US tariffs on Japanese
products. If quality is not an issue, why is the American consumer buying
Japanese made mini vans instead of US made, even though the import tariff on a
minivan is $3500 to $5000 PER VAN? The reason, of course, is that even with
this "fine" added in, the price is comparable to US products and the quality
is superior.
Why are US made radar detectors outselling imported radar detectors of all
varieties? Because that companies products are the top of the line, and price
competitive.
Fundamentally, people buy the highest quality they can at the price point they
can afford. The import tariffs are the governments way of trying to give US
companies a 'free lunch', but it only forestalls the inevitable failure of the
US companies if they don't adapt to the changing world marketplace.
Ralph Sprang
> selling them at a loss in order to force the competition into bankruptcy.
> Then, once the competition is defunct, they raise their prices to pay off
> the loans required to keep their companies solvent.
>
> They've done this on the portable computer LCD screen market and the memory
> chip market. That's why few, if any, of these products are made in the USA
> by American companies.
>
US companies also engage in "dumping". Following allegations that Japanese
seminconductor companies were dumping, laws were passed to prohibit dumping by
Japanese companies, but permit it by American companies. The government
effectively dictates the minimum price Japanese companies can charge for
semiconductors in the US. These prices are set artificially high, to give US
companies a 'free lunch'. Yet US companies still buy the japanese
semiconductors - because get the quality, customer support, and delivery they
need.
> The Japanese, when they have played by some semi-fair rules, have forced us
> to improve, specifically in the auto arena. Our domestic cars are as good
> as what they sell. Before they kicked our asses, our cars really _sucked_.
> Like the '72 Vega, for instance.
I wish that were true.; Although US auto quality has improved dramatically,
independent studies and surveys confirm it is still not comparable to imports.
Of course, then there is the question of 'what is a US made car'? Is a Ford
built entirely in Korea more "US made" than a Honda built entirely in the US?
By commerce department definitions (70% of value of car added in country of
origin), there are approximately 4 domestic brand cars that are 'US made', and
the majority of Japanese brands are 'US made'.
Guthrie378
exceptional quality. Record and Crown are two of my very favourite
tool-makers for just about every hand tool except, for obvious reasons,
japanese saws.
jdg
Allen D Vogl
>Allen D Vogl (adv...@iastate.edu) wrote:
>
>: Give me a break.
>
>: High tariffs on American products going into Japan create the trade
>: imbalance. It has nothing to do with quality. Individual Japanese
>: products may or may not be better than a similar product from another
>: country. It doesn't matter. The imbalance is due to Japan's restrictive
>: trade practices.
>
>
>To follow your reasoning a bit further, the Japanese government, seeking
>to produce a trade imbalance specifically with the United States, imposed
>high tariffs on all imported goods. This move had nothing to do with
>artifically protecting their own industries from the rest of the world's
>goods. And, Americans didn't have to purchase these Japanese goods in
>order to create the trade imbalance because these tariffs were there to
>do it all by themselves.
>
>Hey, FYI: The Japanese don't have a free market system. They are very
>heavily government controlled. Some would suggest that our markets
>should also be restrictive. I just happen to disagree. I don't think
>that American industry has what it takes to produce world class products
>without world class competition. We're just too greedy.
>
>--
>----------
>Ed Bennett
>e...@primenet.com
>Inventor of TS-Aligner
>(Not an advertisement, just a fact)
>
My point was, specific products aside, that there would not be a large
trade imbalance with the Japanese if it were not for the restrictive
practices of the Japanese government. We could just about wipe out the
trade imbalance if the Japanese would allow our agricultural product
into their country without the high tariffs currently in place. FYI,
Japan has placed high tariffs on agricultural product to protect their
ag industry. They also have high tariffs on U.S autos.
The fact is, they do protect their industries.The Japanese also have
a long history of dumping product in this country at low prices to
stifle American industry. My original point was, the trade imbalance is
the result of restictive Japanese trade practices, and not due to individual
product quality. Your right about one thing, American do not have to
purchase Japanese products, unfortunitly, the Japanese are not even
given the option when it comes to American products.
Sorry, this is not a woodworking subject any more.
--
adv
adv...@iastate.edu
Allen D Vogl
Ralph Sprang <wdtu...@TSO.CIN.IX.NET> wrote:
> > Give me a break.
> >
> > High tariffs on American products going into Japan create the trade
> > imbalance. It has nothing to do with quality. Individual Japanese products
> > may or may not be better than a similar product from another country. It
> > doesn't matter. The imbalance is due to Japan's restrictive trade
> > practices.
> >
>
>statements.
>
>Tariffs are a big part of the problem - but it's US tariffs on Japanese
>products. If quality is not an issue, why is the American consumer buying
>Japanese made mini vans instead of US made, even though the import tariff on a
>minivan is $3500 to $5000 PER VAN? The reason, of course, is that even with
>this "fine" added in, the price is comparable to US products and the quality
>is superior.
>
>Why are US made radar detectors outselling imported radar detectors of all
>varieties? Because that companies products are the top of the line, and price
>competitive.
>
>Fundamentally, people buy the highest quality they can at the price point they
>can afford. The import tariffs are the governments way of trying to give US
>companies a 'free lunch', but it only forestalls the inevitable failure of the
>US companies if they don't adapt to the changing world marketplace.
First off, Japanese mini vans are junk (free country, personal opinion).
Second, I stand by my original statement, Japanese trade practices create
the imbalance.
--
adv
adv...@iastate.edu
Loren Zachary
>Path: news.iastate.edu!advogl
>From: adv...@iastate.edu (Allen D Vogl)
>Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>Subject: Re: Which chisels are best?
>Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:51:36 GMT
>Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA
>Lines: 38
>Message-ID: <3qn8ho$b...@news.iastate.edu>
>References: <1995060209...@hTSO01.Cin.IX.net>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: pv0c03.vincent.iastate.edu
>--
>adv
>adv...@iastate.edu
I thought this was a woodworking newsgroup. Please try to keep to the subject.
Ed Bennett
: Give me a break.
: High tariffs on American products going into Japan create the trade
: imbalance. It has nothing to do with quality. Individual Japanese
: products may or may not be better than a similar product from another
: country. It doesn't matter. The imbalance is due to Japan's restrictive
: trade practices.
OK, here's a break:
to...@merlin.cobb.ziff.com
> M21...@mwvm.mitre.org wrote:
> : I pains me to hear people openly brag about owning Japanese products, when
> : our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
>
> <snip>
>
> * Diversion alert *
>
> Excuse me?
>
> The trade imbalance with the Japanese is a symptom, not a cause of our
> bankruptcy. Americans wishing to purchase superior products naturally
> shun the poor quality union made garbage in favor of what the Japanese
> are offering. That's called the free market system. It means that
> companies eventually will pay for screwing their customers. And, as it
> has been the case, when the major industries in a nation screw their
> customers, the whole nation has to pay.
Generally true, but the Japanese are notorious for dumping goods -
that is, selling them at a loss in order to force the competition
into bankruptcy. Then, once the competition is defunct, they raise
their prices to pay off the loans required to keep their companies
solvent.
They've done this on the portable computer LCD screen market and the
memory chip market. That's why few, if any, of these products are
made in the USA by American companies.
The Japanese, when they have played by some semi-fair rules, have
forced us to improve, specifically in the auto arena. Our domestic
cars are as good as what they sell. Before they kicked our asses,
our cars really _sucked_. Like the '72 Vega, for instance.
--
** to...@merlin.cobb.ziff.com | (502) 493-3401 | All opinions my own **
Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself /
Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself /
You say I've been spending my money on other women /
You've been taking money from someone else.
_Before You Accuse Me_, E. McDaniel
Ed Bennett
: "Japanese" doesn't always mean best! I find English tools to be of
: jdg
That's absolutely correct. We americans have allowed our expertise to slide
in lots of areas, giving the rest of the world a chance to sell into our
markets. I think the Japan bashing was a UAW/Auto industry invention
because the Japanese cars compete directly with their market (low to
mid range cars). There's many European cars that exceed the highest
quality American cars but since they're all on the high end, nobody
really cares that much.
Consider this: If there were no Japanese tariffs, and the Japanese really
wanted the American goods, do you still think that they could ever
purchase enough products to balance the trade? You're crazy if you do.
There just aren't enough people over there to purchase in the same
volumes as Americans do. Each Japanese citizen would have to own
something like four American cars. Consider this: if the American GNP
was anywhere near what the Japanese GNP is, then the world would be
flooded with American products.
Bruce Haugen
everything deleted for no particular reason other than it's got nothing to
do with anything.
>--
>----------
>Ed Bennett
Having recently participated in a public debate that had less to do with
woodworking than this one, I feel only slightly hypocritical when I say to
all participants in this thread:
TAKE IT TO E-MAIL.
Thank you.
Bruce Haugen
David Elliston
>"Japanese" doesn't always mean best! I find English tools to be of
>exceptional quality. Record and Crown are two of my very favourite
>tool-makers for just about every hand tool except, for obvious reasons,
>japanese saws.
Bravo!! But also Robert Sorby, Stanley (UK), and Henry Taylor!!
d...@dnsns.navy.gov.au
Canberra ACT Australia
Ralph Sprang
> on American products going into Japan create the trade > > imbalance. It
> has nothing to do with quality. Individual Japanese products > > may or may
> not be better than a similar product from another country. It > > doesn't
> matter. The imbalance is due to Japan's restrictive trade > > practices. >
> incorrect >statements. > >Tariffs are a big part of the problem - but it's
> US tariffs on Japanese >products. If quality is not an issue, why is the
> American consumer buying >Japanese made mini vans instead of US made, even
> though the import tariff on a >minivan is $3500 to $5000 PER VAN? The
> reason, of course, is that even with >this "fine" added in, the price is
> comparable to US products and the quality >is superior. > >Why are US made
> radar detectors outselling imported radar detectors of all >varieties?
> Because that companies products are the top of the line, and price
> >competitive. > >Fundamentally, people buy the highest quality they can at
> the price point they >can afford. The import tariffs are the governments
> way of trying to give US >companies a 'free lunch', but it only forestalls
> the inevitable failure of the >US companies if they don't adapt to the
> changing world marketplace.
>
> First off, Japanese mini vans are junk (free country, personal opinion).
>
> Second, I stand by my original statement, Japanese trade practices create
> the imbalance.
>
mind".
I won't trouble you with the facts anymore.
Nick Janow
> I find English tools to be of exceptional quality. Record and Crown are
> two of my very favourite tool-makers for just about every hand tool
> except, for obvious reasons, japanese saws.
I agree with "exceptional" for British steel tools: "exceptionally bad!"
After trying several British tools, I came to the conclusion that there was
no point in even trying them; they were guaranteed to be useless. The edge
of a Marples "high quality Sheffield steel" mortise chisel crumbled after
one blow in relatively soft wood, and instead of a square cross-section, it
was an asymmetric quadrilateral. A precision square wasn't square. There
were several other tools of similarly bad quality.
I ended up buying Japanese tools. Except for a dozuki saw with uneven set,
I've been very happy with the quality.
--
Guthrie378
you wonder why they were so cheap?
Mark. Gooley
(I assume that Goldenberg is a French company that Stanley ate a while
back) firmer and mortise chisels. They sharpen well for me, and I've yet
to have one chip. I've chopped mortises and trimmed tenons in such woods
as purpleheart and Osage-orange with them, and so far the handles (birch?)
have withstood quite a few good whacks with wooden mallets.
There's a company in Boston selling them relatively cheap (forget who --
might be the one formerly known as M. P. White that recently changed the
name of at least its mail-order division), and I think that the Stanley
"Tool Traditions" catalog has them for not much more (along with tools
ranging from pretty good to absolute dreck).
Mark.
goo...@netcom.com
mf...@wizvax.net
>Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 06:52:28 -0400
>From: Ralph Sprang <wdtu...@TSO.CIN.IX.NET>
>Subject: Re: Which chisels are best?
> > Generally true, but the Japanese are notorious for dumping goods - that is,
> > selling them at a loss in order to force the competition into bankruptcy.
> > Then, once the competition is defunct, they raise their prices to pay off
> > the loans required to keep their companies solvent.
> >
> > They've done this on the portable computer LCD screen market and the memory
> > chip market. That's why few, if any, of these products are made in the USA
> > by American companies.
> >
>US companies also engage in "dumping". Following allegations that Japanese
>seminconductor companies were dumping, laws were passed to prohibit dumping by
>Japanese companies, but permit it by American companies. The government
>effectively dictates the minimum price Japanese companies can charge for
>semiconductors in the US. These prices are set artificially high, to give US
>companies a 'free lunch'. Yet US companies still buy the japanese
>semiconductors - because get the quality, customer support, and delivery they
>need.
> > The Japanese, when they have played by some semi-fair rules, have forced us
> > to improve, specifically in the auto arena. Our domestic cars are as good
> > as what they sell. Before they kicked our asses, our cars really _sucked_.
> > Like the '72 Vega, for instance.
>I wish that were true.; Although US auto quality has improved dramatically,
>independent studies and surveys confirm it is still not comparable to imports.
>Of course, then there is the question of 'what is a US made car'? Is a Ford
>built entirely in Korea more "US made" than a Honda built entirely in the US?
>By commerce department definitions (70% of value of car added in country of
>origin), there are approximately 4 domestic brand cars that are 'US made', and
>the majority of Japanese brands are 'US made'.
I feel like I'm on alt.governmt.economics or something....
Andy Dingley
guthr...@aol.com "Guthrie378" writes:
> "Japanese" doesn't always mean best! I find English tools to be of
> exceptional quality.
Re Japanese chisels, I don't think "quality" comes into it so much as
"style". My Japanese chisels cost a fortune, but I'm sure they're not
particularly good quality ones by the standards of such things. What they do
have is a completely different approach to the design; they're shorter (thus
stiffer) and much harder (more likely to chip) than my English chisels.
They're great for fine cabinet making, lousy for carrying in the general
hacking about toolbag.
If a local manufacturer made "Japanese style" chisels, and made them as well
as the Japanese ones, then I'd consider buying them. Otherwise you're trying
to compare apples and ornages - I'd no more buy English chisels instead of
Japanese, just because of their origin, than I'd eat roast beef when I really
wanted sushi.
Don't knock specialist Japanese chisels as damaging to the indigenous
product. Rather look to make sure that your own product is worth buying
(which I'll grant, it usually is) and complain about the nasty imports that
only sell on price.
> Record and Crown are two of my very favourite tool-makers
Crown ? Never heard of them. Is that a US brandname for a UK maker I would
recognise.
Record tools, like Stanley some years ago, have gone terribly downhill on
quality. Some are still well made, like the clamps & vices, but their current
planes are shocking. Over 30 years old and you're talking, but modern stuff
I'd want to handle before I bought it.
"Tools from Sheffield" seems to be a good brand for quality at a reasonable
price. Axminster sell them, and they offer a range of sensibly made stuff
like beech stocked squares. You get all the accuracy of a well-made rosewood
square, but aren't paying for what is now a very expensive wood that doesn't
really add much to the utility of the finished product.
--
Andy Dingley din...@codesmth.demon.co.uk
Have you hugged your Nerd today ?
Mikepsun
international trade, keep an eye out at flea markets for old W.T. Butcher
cast steel chisels. They can be a pain to clean up, but they work down to
a lovely honed edge as good as any on my fancy carving knives, stay that
way for months and take lots of abuse. I've never paid more than a buck
for one. . .
Mike Phillips
Editor, The Sun
Bremerton, WA, US
David Elliston
>The Marpes trade name is a cheaper variety of Record tools. . . . Didn't
>you wonder why they were so cheap?
That is simply not so. Record has used the Marples name for a number
of series in chisels from the cheaper consumer chisels to the top of
the line. Marples has a long and distinguished history of chisel etc
manufacture. They have fallen victim to the ill informed who belive
that the Blue Chip is representative of all Marples chisels.
d...@dnsns.navy.gov.au
Canberra ACT Australia
EyeandI
posts half a dozen concern wood, the rest, international trade and
netiquette, now i've been sucked into the vortex myself. I love my
Japanese chisels but they were pricy at $20 to $30 apiece for middle
quality steel. I do have one English chisel a Footprint from Sheffield
that seems to rival the Japanese for quality, I've been told that the
Japanese primarily work softwood, typically pine or Cypress and that this
impacts chisel design, perhaps the angle of the bevel could be changed to
compensate for that? My Stanleys are my "at risk" chisels, i.e. bottom
of the tool bag first nicked, my Japanese tools are all spared edge
damaging assignments.
Steve Cobb
writes:
|> My Stanleys are my "at risk" chisels, i.e. bottom
|> of the tool bag first nicked, my Japanese tools are all spared edge
|> damaging assignments.
I have to add that when I worked as a 'professional' in the field
(well, we were doing hack work, but I did make a living as
a cabinetmaker), we had a set of Stanleys, about vintage 1970, that
really got used a lot - for everything from use to abuse. And they
really stood up well to all that. I think any of the 'fine' chisels
we had (which were reserved for almost no use at all) would have
stood up to half of what we used the Stanleys for.
Can't speak to the current crop of Stanleys, though. And I don't
think any of those plastic handles are comfortable at all.
Sfc
Paul Grun
|> In article <3qgth2$1...@news4.primenet.com>, e...@primenet.com (Ed Bennett) writes:
|> > M21...@mwvm.mitre.org wrote:
|> > : I pains me to hear people openly brag about owning Japanese products, when
|> > : our country is being bankrupted by a trade imbalance with Japan.
|> >
|> > <snip>
|> >
|> > * Diversion alert *
|> >
|> > Excuse me?
|> >
|> > The trade imbalance with the Japanese is a symptom, not a cause of our
|> > bankruptcy.
|>
|> Generally true, but the Japanese are notorious for dumping goods -
|>
TWWWWWEEEEET! (sound of a referee's whistle)
Gentlemen: Is it possible that this discussion, which bears not even a
tangential relation to "Which chisels are best?" has strayed far enough
from woodworking that we can give it a merciful burial?
If not, how about taking it to e-mail or even better,
alt.soc.politics.tariffs.chisels.trade.imbalance.not.even.close.to.woodworking
--
Paul Grun paul...@mentorg.com Mentor Graphics Corp. (503) 685-4855
Goes to show, you don't ever know...