TS-Aligner jr.
oldman
I set up everything as per the instructions, I was never totally satified
with the blade alignment. being new to woodworking I started lurking here
and read as many post's as I could.After grumbling for the last few weeks I
ordered the ts-aligner jr. It arrived in two days and I checked my saw which
was out of alignment by about .015 inches. after ten minutes my saw is now
aligned to within .002 inches and the cuts are perfect. If I never use the
aligner again it was worth the price just for this one time as the alignment
has been a sore in my side for too long. Ps I'm sure i will use it often.
Thank you to all who recomended it. and thank you Mr Bennett.
mitch
Mitch
Stephen Dalfollo-Daley
15% discount and should have it in a few days....i have
had the same urking 1/32-1/64" misalignment and hope to
clear it up...i am also looking forward to check and
aligning my other tools so that they are right on....
is a perfect cut too much to ask for??
stephen
Larry Root
socket size, get up, find the right one, and break them loose! Either I'm stuck
in 1st gear or you're really running in overdrive. :-)
Respectfully,
Larry
Brian Leeland
results outstanding. In addition, the methodologies and general attitude
conveyed by the documentation are going to be useful in many different ways. I
append my thanks.
John Chapple
>
> i just ordered one through hartville tool using their
> 15% discount and should have it in a few days....i have
> had the same urking 1/32-1/64" misalignment and hope to
> clear it up...i am also looking forward to check and
> aligning my other tools so that they are right on....
>
> is a perfect cut too much to ask for??
Not IMHO.
Cheers
John
>
> stephen
>
> oldman wrote:
> >
> > I purchased a delta contractors saw about a year ago, although I thought
> > I set up everything as per the instructions, I was never totally satified
> > with the blade alignment. being new to woodworking I started lurking here
> > and read as many post's as I could.After grumbling for the last few weeks I
> > ordered the ts-aligner jr. It arrived in two days and I checked my saw which
> > was out of alignment by about .015 inches. after ten minutes my saw is now
> > aligned to within .002 inches and the cuts are perfect. If I never use the
> > aligner again it was worth the price just for this one time as the alignment
> > has been a sore in my side for too long. Ps I'm sure i will use it often.
> > Thank you to all who recomended it. and thank you Mr Bennett.
--
Please remove the text between and including the asterisks in my email
address to reply. This measure was necessary to control unsolicited and
unwanted email generated by robots or other automatons. Thank you for
your cooperation.
Pete
18" 's. They sell for under $50 in Tool Crib of the North and are advertised
to be within 10/1000". Ireally like mine. Save your money and don't put all
your eggs in one basket.
John Chapple wrote in message <7e4c1b$j3u$4...@bigdog.easynet.ca>...
Woodchipz
What did we ever do before HoytieToytie tools?? Oldtimers, i.e. those who
practiced woodworking over 6.9 years ago, (artibrary figure not supported by
any particular statistics, and is the opinion of the author only) even used
pencil marks to align their tablesaws. It's easy to align something without a
digital readout,etc. to within woodworking tolerances, if you have even a
LITTLE savy! the difference between .002" and .015" can even be "felt"
besides measured.
>
Complete instructions for "using a pencil" came with my 1974 Craftsman table
saw. And, the blade WAS aligned perfectly to the miter slot!..The fence was a
piece of crap, but that's another matter!!
>
Perhaps as "Man" evolves and leaves behind his "Neanderthal" instincts, he is
less the better for it all. Another 6.9 years, we'll have to have a DRO to
tell us if we are "hungry" or "horny"!!!
Woodchipz
the Riddles
I know this oldtimer lined his cabinet saw up , the only time it EVER needed
it (I had to take the top off once) with a block of wood clamped to the
miter guage, and the feeler guage I used to use to set the points on my car
(some improvements are warranted). Do you remember the old delta (rockwell)
planers had instructions how to make a block of wood to set the chipbreaker,
head and pressure bar! wonder if I could find it, make some, and sell them
for about $100 ea. :)
J Pagona
believe I did a good job on mine without a TS aligner as well. I measured as
accurately as I could off of the miter guage slot with a steel ruler. Then I
made test cuts and adjusted the fence one way or the other in very minor
increments until I got the best possible cut. Is the fence exactly parallel to
the miter guage slot or .001546" leaning away? I don't know. I jsut know I
get excellent quality cuts from my saw.
Jay Pagona
remove the "key to e mail me.
Duke of URLs
>Oh Lord Give me Strength!!
Hoo boy! Here we go again.
It may be time to suggest a split like maybe
rec.woodworking.igottabeefagainstusingatsaligner?
Keith Bohn
Glenn D
enough to use good sense and save money for the important stuff.
J Pagona
>Hoo boy! Here we go again.
>
>It may be time to suggest a split like maybe
>rec.woodworking.igottabeefagainstusingatsaligner?
>
I don't have any beef against using a TS Aligner. However, if I can get my saw
aligned without it, that's $100.00 of my somewhat limited budget that can be
spent elsewhere. Actually, I think it would be a GREAT idea if some tool
suppliers and/or lumber yards rented them out. Say charge $15.00 for 2 days.
I'll bet there are plenty of folks like me who would like to use one, but don't
find it practical to place high on the list of priority purchases. Not only
will the tool rental generate income, but the customer will make additional
trips to the store to rent the TS Aligner and to return it. I find it hard to
go to one of those places without buying something, so extra trips means extra
sales.
Until my tool budget increases or the cost of owning or using a TS Aligner
decreases, I guess I'll just get by without it. BTW, the 3" piece of birch I
ripped today didn't think I need it either.
Glenn Rathke
a dial indicator for about $23.00. Now I can use it for other things than
just for my saw.
Glenn Rathke
J Pagona <jpa...@aol.comkey> wrote in message
news:19990403195719...@ng67.aol.com...
Gerry Glauser
measurement tools that survived in my shop are a feeler gauge and a wooden
rule. All the rest can be either made or done without. On the other hand,
the working definition of "little savy" is those things that you remember
without having to think about them, after the first time. Of course, you've
got to get past that first time, first:-)
So, why'd I buy a dial indicator? Well, the whole thing was under 30 bucks,
and it let me align my jointer knives in about 1/5 the time it used to take.
And if I need a 32 degree bevel on the TS, I could set that up without
hoytie toytie stuff, but a $25 set of precision angle blocks would make it
much faster, so some day I'll probably move into the modern world and order
them.
Of course, Woodchipz, that does bring a thought to mind here--how many
people still know how to set an arbitrary angle without any hoytie-toytie?
--Gerry Glauser
On 3 Apr 1999 20:11:27 GMT, wood...@aol.com (Woodchipz) wrote:
>Oh Lord Give me Strength!!
Gerry Glauser
a benchtop, to a contractors saw, then to a cabinet saw, they can all cut
boards. It's a question of time, convenience and accuracy. Same thing as
between the TS Aligner Jr. and Sr. models. Whichever item satisfies your
needs and budget, that's what you should get. There's simply no "have to
have" or "you really don't need" generalizatons that you can apply in most
cases.
The only other issue is if a product is properly designed and manufactured
to perform its advertised job, and there the TS Aligner gets higher marks
than most.
--Gerry Glauser
Glenn Rathke
have when you
have the extra money.
Glenn Rathke
Gerry Glauser <ggla...@netway.com> wrote in message
news:370cf598...@oldnews.mdc.net...
Ed Bennett
1. Tablesaw
2. Router
3. Bandsaw
4. Planer
5. Jointer
6. Drill press
7. Sander
7. Biscuit joiner
8. Handplane
9. Chisel
10. Handsaw
Did they do work of any less quality? No, they just spent a lot more time
doing it. As I've said many times before, and will continue to say:
TS-Aligner doesn't do anything that you can't do without it.
And, I can say this with authority because I designed it and manufacture it.
It's just like sawing wood without a tablesaw, or flattening a board without a
planer. You just spend more time (and effort) doing the same thing. I'm
quite sure that with enough time, patience, and skill, there are people that
can duplicate the accuracy that TS-Aligner can help you achieve in minutes.
TS-Aligner just makes it much easier and faster. For me, and others like me,
spending $100 on a TS-Aligner Jr. means saving huge amounts of time and
materials avoiding test cuts and other trial and error methods. And, contrary
to what you say, it doesn't have "digital readout" or digital anything.
There's a condescending tone in your message implying that people who use such
tools to save time, wood, and frustration are somehow less of a woodworker. I
happen to find this attitude just a little offensive. It's no different than
someone saying that a person who uses a tablesaw is less "savvy" than someone
who doesn't. Or, someone who uses a calculator is less "savvy" than someone
who uses a slide rule. In my opinion, it's a stupid and narrow minded
judgement.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
Woodchipz wrote in message <19990403151127...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
Ed Bennett
that change obsoletes methods and "skills" that they've spent years learning
and refining. The biggest "beef against using a TS-Aligner" isn't the
accuracy of the results obtained and it isn't the quality of the product
itself. It's frustration from seeing tasks reduced to trivial simplicity that
normally take a lot of time, effort, and "skill". The frustration is
expressed as "I can do that without spending $100 on a TS-Aligner". And, the
statement is perfectly valid. However, so are the following statements:
"I can saw a board without spending hundreds of dollars on a tablesaw."
"I can joint an edge without spending hundreds of dollars on a jointer."
"I can dimension a board without spending hundreds of dollars on a planer."
"I can calculate square roots without a calculator."
"I can travel anywhere witnout spending thousands on a car."
"I don't need a high speed modem to read rec.woodworking."
The TS-Aligner, and other tools like it trivialize what they think are hard
earned skills. And, some find this to be personally threatening.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
Duke of URLs wrote in message <7e65ta$a...@newsops.execpc.com>...
>Woodchipz wrote:
>>Oh Lord Give me Strength!!
>
>Hoo boy! Here we go again.
>
>It may be time to suggest a split like maybe
>rec.woodworking.igottabeefagainstusingatsaligner?
>
>Keith Bohn
George Nazarko
my 34-410, it came with a QC card listing its specs and the inspector name.
I set it to mine, have checked it twice a year during lube and polish time
since then, and just kept pushing wood through it. Now Ed, I'm sure that
your device is really nice, but twice a year for maybe 15 minutes ain't
about to get this kid to drop a hundred bucks when I still trim tenons with
a chisel instead of a rabbet plane. If I'm a Luddite in your eyes for that,
so be it.
Ed Bennett wrote in message <7e8gcg$hjo$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
Arthur M. Schneiderman
Please do not misinterpret the following comments, since I have a great deal
of respect for both you and your product, but I do think your parental pride
is showing when you put the TS-Aligner in the same class of technological
breakthroughs as power vs. hand tools.
First let me point out that greater than 99.9% of all woodworkers (that's my
wild guess) do not use the TS-Aligner or its equivalent and do just fine
aligning their power tools by whatever neander method they choose. If that
were not the case, these precision alignment tools would penetrate the
market very quickly. In fact, my guess (again) is that they appeal only to
a subset of woodworkers who others in this group have branded as
"anal-retentive". Unfortunately, that includes me since I have an Align-It
system. I must admit though (as an admitted charter member of Normite
WoodWorkers Anonymous) that after an initial flurry of aligning every tool
in my shop to half a gnat's-ass, it has been collecting dust, since nothing
has shown any signs of loosing this initial alignment.
The issue still remains: what are the alignment requirements for tools used
in the normal woodworking shop. I'm unaware of any definitive study that
shows the likelihood of kickback, the quality of cut or the rate of blade
wear as a function the angle between the blade and the fence on a table saw.
Until we have these data for different woods, moisture content, depth of
cut, etc..., we can only rely on our individual experiences and gut feel.
That's why we can have endless debates over methods...which to me are the
woodworking equivalent of the number of fairies that can fit on the head of
a pin.
Until these types of data show that the simple manual methods are incapable
of achieving the required alignment, the preponderance of experiential
evidence suggests that they can produce safe and good quality woodworking
results without the need for instruments such as the Align-It or TS-Aligner.
--
Regards,
-- Art --
Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:7e8eo8$haj$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> Ed Bennett
> e...@primenet.com
> Home of the TS-Aligner
>
> Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
>
>
> Woodchipz wrote in message
<19990403151127...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
> >Oh Lord Give me Strength!!
Ed Bennett
and align your saw twice per year. So, are these the only times that you need
to make sure the blade is square? Are these the only times that you use the
blade tilt to cut angles? Are these the only times that you need to know if
the miter gauge is square. Do you ever use your miter gauge to cut angles?
How about drilling straight, perpendicular holes on your drill press? Do you
ever change the blades on your jointer? Do you ever need to set the fence
square or to an angle on your jointer? Do you have a router table? A
bandsaw? A mitersaw?
What I'm saying is that TS-Aligner does a lot more than just align your blade
and fence to the miter slot. It's a general purpose alignment/setup tool for
use on all your woodworking machines.
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
Visit my web site: http://www.primenet.com/~ejb
George Nazarko <@mail.tds.net> wrote in message <7e8lbg$e...@news2.tds.net>...
Ed Bennett
>Ed:
>
>Please do not misinterpret the following comments, since I have a great deal
>of respect for both you and your product, but I do think your parental pride
>is showing when you put the TS-Aligner in the same class of technological
>breakthroughs as power vs. hand tools.
Perhpas I didn't make my point very clear. "Woodchipz" said: "What did we
ever do before HoytieToytie tools??". I read that statement, and the rest of
the message to mean that he felt that there was no particular need for the
TS-Aligner products. So, as an example, I mentioned a bunch of other tools
(power and hand tools) that are not absolutely necessary either. People got
by without them for centuries before they were invented. I was not trying to
compare the invention of the TS-Aligner with the invention of the tablesaw.
>First let me point out that greater than 99.9% of all woodworkers (that's my
>wild guess) do not use the TS-Aligner or its equivalent and do just fine
>aligning their power tools by whatever neander method they choose. If that
>were not the case, these precision alignment tools would penetrate the
>market very quickly.
If you find a single mail order catalog without jigs for setting up machines,
let me know! Jigs for setting angles are particularly popular and there's a
plethera of junky gizmos that sell by the thousands to people looking for some
way to make the task easier. Some of them are quite a hoot and demand prices
far beyond TS-Aligner!
>In fact, my guess (again) is that they appeal only to
>a subset of woodworkers who others in this group have branded as
>"anal-retentive".
While I'm sure that there are some "anal-retentive" people out there who just
like to align machines, I think that a lot of people are just plain sick and
tired of wasting time and wood doing test cuts until they get the right
settings. Not everyone is making furniture destined for the living room, but
those of us that are would like our joints to be tight. And, we don't want to
fuss around on each and every one of them to achieve these results. And, I
don't know if people think it's "anal-retentive" or not, but for me, wood
putty is anathema!
>Unfortunately, that includes me since I have an Align-It
>system. I must admit though (as an admitted charter member of Normite
>WoodWorkers Anonymous) that after an initial flurry of aligning every tool
>in my shop to half a gnat's-ass, it has been collecting dust, since nothing
>has shown any signs of loosing this initial alignment.
I can understand your frustration. Unfortunately, the A-Line-It does little
more than basic alignment on just a couple of machines. And, it has no
ability to measure or set angles. There have been several other jigs with
similiar shortcomings. Being a woodworker myself makes it difficult for me to
play the "charge more and deliver less" game.
>The issue still remains: what are the alignment requirements for tools used
>in the normal woodworking shop. I'm unaware of any definitive study that
>shows the likelihood of kickback, the quality of cut or the rate of blade
>wear as a function the angle between the blade and the fence on a table saw.
There have been a number of studies, I've read some in the trade rags. I've
also performed some limited testing myself. The results depend heavily on the
blade being used, the wood being cut, and the desired results. Using a
Forrest WW II on a Unisaw, the quality of the cut in cherry noticably suffers
at about 0.005" misalignment. Between 0.010" and 0.015" you'll start to see
burning. Beyond 0.020" and you start to risk binding and kickback.
>Until we have these data for different woods, moisture content, depth of
>cut, etc..., we can only rely on our individual experiences and gut feel.
>That's why we can have endless debates over methods...which to me are the
>woodworking equivalent of the number of fairies that can fit on the head of
>a pin.
To be sure, there are a lot of variables. However, the above guidelines seem
to me to be pretty universal. Yes, not everyone agrees, but I think it's a
bit more practical than "the number of fairies that can fit on the head of a
pin". There is science to this, it's not purely subjective.
>Until these types of data show that the simple manual methods are incapable
>of achieving the required alignment, the preponderance of experiential
>evidence suggests that they can produce safe and good quality woodworking
>results without the need for instruments such as the Align-It or TS-Aligner.
The simple manual methods are very capable of achieving the required
alignment. If you bothered to read my message at all, then you realize that
this is exactly what I said. "TS-Aligner doesn't do anything that you can't
do without it." It just helps you do it faster and more accurately. Is this
of any value? Ask yourself, why buy a tablesaw when a handsaw can be used to
achieve the same results. Then you'll know why people would want to buy a
TS-Aligner.
Ed Bennett
>
>I don't think it's so much a resistance to change Ed. I think you got
>it right in the other post when you said, "There's a condescending
>tone in your message implying that people who use such tools to
>save time, wood, and frustration are somehow less of a woodworker".
Well, I think they feel as if there is some virtue in laboring over each and
every joint with lots of trial and error and lots of handwork. I think it's a
"self worth" kind of thing. They tell themselves "I am the great woodworker
that slaved away for months with great skill and knowledge making sure that
each and every joint was perfect." When the same results come from using a
quick and easy method, they feel as if they have been cheated so the only
thing left to do is criticize.
>I was also a little amused that someone suggested popping $50 for the
>Paragauge which in my limited experience seems to be a one trick pony.
>I'd rather apply crow bar to wallet and go the extra and have a tool
>that multi tasks. I dunno, maybe I'm a lesser woodworker.
I suppose that if you have a really low quality fence that never locks
parallel to the blade, and the scale can never be made to read accurately,
then Paragauge can be a real handy device. $50 is a bit much though. And
10/1000" is a fancy way to say 1/100", an order of magnitude less accurate
than a dial indicator jig. I think it also boasts "space age polymer" and
"aircraft aluminum" construction!
Duke of URLs
>I think what happens, Keith, is people tend to resist change.
I don't think it's so much a resistance to change Ed. I think you got
it right in the other post when you said, "There's a condescending
tone in your message implying that people who use such tools to
save time, wood, and frustration are somehow less of a woodworker".
I was also a little amused that someone suggested popping $50 for the
Paragauge which in my limited experience seems to be a one trick pony.
I'd rather apply crow bar to wallet and go the extra and have a tool
that multi tasks. I dunno, maybe I'm a lesser woodworker.
Keith Bohn
Gerry Glauser
tools, as Ed included both in the same list. Actually, I took his point as
somewhat different, and his emphasis is more on time needed to set up the
tool.
Also, your 99.9% fine is perhaps a little ambiguous. There's nothing wrong
with beauty in the eye of the beholder, except trying to measure it. There
was once a thread from a guy who used a standard framing square to set up
everything on a TS. It worked fine and quickly for him, and produced joints
that satisfied him, so that's fine. However, how many of that 99.9% you
mention would be satisfied with that?
Now, when you bring up the alignment requirements question, you're only
talking about kickback, blade wear and such. What about having things fit
together well? I agree that a simple alignment tool would just gather dust
most of the time, but what if I need a precise angle or distance increment?
No, not all projects need all precision. Yes, many can be done quite well
with only hand tools. However, many different people build many different
types of projects, and have many different definitions of beauty. Some will,
and some will not include the TS-Aligner, and I think we can accomodate
both.
--Gerry Glauser
On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:38:23 -0400, "Arthur M. Schneiderman"
<a...@schneiderman.com> wrote:
>Ed:
>
>Please do not misinterpret the following comments, since I have a great deal
>of respect for both you and your product, but I do think your parental pride
>is showing when you put the TS-Aligner in the same class of technological
>breakthroughs as power vs. hand tools.
>
>First let me point out that greater than 99.9% of all woodworkers (that's my
>wild guess) do not use the TS-Aligner or its equivalent and do just fine
>aligning their power tools by whatever neander method they choose. If that
>were not the case, these precision alignment tools would penetrate the
>market very quickly. In fact, my guess (again) is that they appeal only to
>a subset of woodworkers who others in this group have branded as
>"anal-retentive". Unfortunately, that includes me since I have an Align-It
>system. I must admit though (as an admitted charter member of Normite
>WoodWorkers Anonymous) that after an initial flurry of aligning every tool
>in my shop to half a gnat's-ass, it has been collecting dust, since nothing
>has shown any signs of loosing this initial alignment.
>
>The issue still remains: what are the alignment requirements for tools used
>in the normal woodworking shop. I'm unaware of any definitive study that
>shows the likelihood of kickback, the quality of cut or the rate of blade
>wear as a function the angle between the blade and the fence on a table saw.
>Until we have these data for different woods, moisture content, depth of
>cut, etc..., we can only rely on our individual experiences and gut feel.
>That's why we can have endless debates over methods...which to me are the
>woodworking equivalent of the number of fairies that can fit on the head of
>a pin.
>
jen...@buffnet.net
<a...@schneiderman.com> wrote:
>Ed:
>
>Please do not misinterpret the following comments, since I have a great deal
>of respect for both you and your product, but I do think your parental pride
>is showing when you put the TS-Aligner in the same class of technological
>breakthroughs as power vs. hand tools.
>
>First let me point out that greater than 99.9% of all woodworkers (that's my
>wild guess) do not use the TS-Aligner or its equivalent and do just fine
>aligning their power tools by whatever neander method they choose.
Neander methods to align power tools?
Go forth and blaspheme no more! ;-)
Ed
IB
CharlieDIY
>"There's a condescending
>>tone in your message implying that people who use such tools to
>>save time, wood, and frustration are somehow less of a woodworker".
>
>
>Well, I think they feel as if there is some virtue in laboring over each and
>every joint with lots of trial and error and lots of handwork. I think it's
>a
>"self worth" kind of thing. They tell themselves "I am the great woodworker
>that slaved away for months with great skill and knowledge making sure that
>each and every joint was perfect." When the same results come from using a
>quick and easy method, they feel as if they have been cheated so the only
>thing left to do is criticize.
>
Ah well. It does seem that when my next royalty check (very small) comes in,
it will be my duty to get hold of a TSAligner Jr., and try said tool in every
position I can think of to the JTAS-10 that is coming Wednesday, the Milwaukee
slide compound and whatever else I can think of around my shop.
Then do an article, short or long as needs determine, for some magazine on the
the unit's qualities.
Should be fun. Is it worth $100? Could I buy lots of wood for $100? I'd
guess, from hearsay mostly, that my first question is answered in the
affirmative. My second deserves a "Hell, yes," because Bedford County, VA is
the site of at least 11 small sawmills where I can get rough, green oak and
poplar for about $.50 a board foot, and, sometimes, walnut and cherry, for
under a buck.
So what.
Saving lots of time on saw set-up is handy regardless. And I'll be setting up
several saws for an article later this year, as well as the JTAS-10, so----I've
watched and listened. Now, I'll check it out, early in May. Let's hope my
editor agrees or I pay for it myself (sounds worthwhile to me anyway).
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Arthur M. Schneiderman
> Art- I didn't quite catch that class comparison between power and hand
> tools, as Ed included both in the same list. Actually, I took his point as
> somewhat different, and his emphasis is more on time needed to set up the
> tool.
>
Sorry Gerry, I made a leap. There are very few things in woodworking that
can be done with a power tool but can't be done with hand tools. The big
difference is required skill and time.
> Also, your 99.9% fine is perhaps a little ambiguous. There's nothing wrong
> with beauty in the eye of the beholder, except trying to measure it. There
> was once a thread from a guy who used a standard framing square to set up
> everything on a TS. It worked fine and quickly for him, and produced
joints
> that satisfied him, so that's fine. However, how many of that 99.9% you
> mention would be satisfied with that?
>
If there was a lot of dissatisfaction with joint fit, I'd expect to see many
more threads on the subject.
> Now, when you bring up the alignment requirements question, you're only
> talking about kickback, blade wear and such. What about having things fit
> together well? I agree that a simple alignment tool would just gather
dust
> most of the time, but what if I need a precise angle or distance
increment?
> No, not all projects need all precision. Yes, many can be done quite well
> with only hand tools. However, many different people build many different
> types of projects, and have many different definitions of beauty. Some
will,
> and some will not include the TS-Aligner, and I think we can accomodate
> both.
>
> --Gerry Glauser
>
Gerry, I think you're confusing alignment with metrology. I slightly
misaligned tool can still produce accurate, precise, reproducible, and
unbiased results. Those characteristic depend more on the tool design than
on it's alignment. The primary effects of misalignment are kickback, poor
cut quality and increased blade wear.
-- Art --
Vermind
>saw
>aligned without it, that's $100.00 of my somewhat limited budget that can be
>spent elsewhere
Limited Budget!?! See, dar's yer problem right there. You need a job that
pays more money! GDAR (Grin, duck and run).
TS Aligner Owner and Devotee.
Gary W. Sandvik
Gary
Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:7e9f63$ogu$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> Duke of URLs wrote in message <7e907h$r...@newsops.execpc.com>...
> >
> >I don't think it's so much a resistance to change Ed. I think you got
> >it right in the other post when you said, "There's a condescending
> >tone in your message implying that people who use such tools to
> >save time, wood, and frustration are somehow less of a woodworker".
>
>
> Well, I think they feel as if there is some virtue in laboring over each
and
> every joint with lots of trial and error and lots of handwork. I think
it's a
> "self worth" kind of thing. They tell themselves "I am the great
woodworker
> that slaved away for months with great skill and knowledge making sure
that
> each and every joint was perfect." When the same results come from using
a
> quick and easy method, they feel as if they have been cheated so the only
> thing left to do is criticize.
>
> >I was also a little amused that someone suggested popping $50 for the
> >Paragauge which in my limited experience seems to be a one trick pony.
> >I'd rather apply crow bar to wallet and go the extra and have a tool
> >that multi tasks. I dunno, maybe I'm a lesser woodworker.
>
>
John Flanagan
>Saving lots of time on saw set-up is handy regardless. And I'll be setting up
>several saws for an article later this year, as well as the JTAS-10, so----I've
>watched and listened. Now, I'll check it out, early in May. Let's hope my
>editor agrees or I pay for it myself (sounds worthwhile to me anyway).
Wow, so what are you doing with all of the TS's after you're done with
them. I have this wonderful spot where my Crapsman saw is sitting
right now......
John
Note: To respond by email please remove "REMOVE.this" in my address.
John Flanagan
jflanganR...@usit.net
Gerry Glauser
> news:370822fc...@oldnews.mdc.net...
>> Art- I didn't quite catch that class comparison between power and hand
>> tools, as Ed included both in the same list. Actually, I took his point as
>> somewhat different, and his emphasis is more on time needed to set up the
>> tool.
>>
> Sorry Gerry, I made a leap. There are very few things in woodworking that
> can be done with a power tool but can't be done with hand tools. The big
> difference is required skill and time.
Agreed, and that is a point that I'm trying to make. When greater
accuracy is needed, these are time savers.
>> Also, your 99.9% fine is perhaps a little ambiguous. There's nothing wrong
>> with beauty in the eye of the beholder, except trying to measure it. There
>> was once a thread from a guy who used a standard framing square to set up
>> everything on a TS. It worked fine and quickly for him, and produced
> joints
>> that satisfied him, so that's fine. However, how many of that 99.9% you
>> mention would be satisfied with that?
>>
> If there was a lot of dissatisfaction with joint fit, I'd expect to see many
> more threads on the subject.
Only if they felt that they could do better, and that doing better
would be to their advantage. My point is that all of that ends up being
rather subjective. I've seen many people struggle with the Ryobi biscuit
jointer for many months or years, without knowing what the were missing
in performance. As far as cutting on a TS, nearly all the threads deal
with major issues or problems. Those few that focus on making good into
better are more involved with each person's favorite approach, and not
into analyzing either exactly what is needed, or how to achieve results
that meet those needs. I've only seen a very few threads that, for instance,
discussed how tight an M&T joint should be, in terms of its use, the
wood and its length.
As to that fellow I mentioned with the framing square, you won't hear
from him, as he's quite satisfied.
>> Now, when you bring up the alignment requirements question, you're only
>> talking about kickback, blade wear and such. What about having things fit
>> together well? I agree that a simple alignment tool would just gather
> dust
>> most of the time, but what if I need a precise angle or distance
> increment?
>> No, not all projects need all precision. Yes, many can be done quite well
>> with only hand tools. However, many different people build many different
>> types of projects, and have many different definitions of beauty. Some
> will,
>> and some will not include the TS-Aligner, and I think we can accomodate
>> both.
>>
>> --Gerry Glauser
>>
> Gerry, I think you're confusing alignment with metrology. I slightly
> misaligned tool can still produce accurate, precise, reproducible, and
> unbiased results. Those characteristic depend more on the tool design than
> on it's alignment. The primary effects of misalignment are kickback, poor
> cut quality and increased blade wear.
Agreed, I shouldn't have lumped them together. In fact, I agree with
your entire paragraph.
My point is that this
equipment can be and often should be used for more than just
alignment. No, not every time and place, but there are projects and
operations where the additional fabrication accuracy is beneficial,
and this equipment will save time in achieving that accuracy.
Enough, I feel, to keep the dust fairly thin.
--Gerry
> -- Art --
--
Kevin Miller
I've got a quick question for you. I have a Freud thin kerf blade, of
some flavor or another which is hollow ground. I believe that's the
appropriate term - the space between the hole and and the rim is sorta
dished, presumably to reduce friction or some such. Anyway, I
downloaded
your TS Aligner Jr. manual from your web page (nicely done, BTW) but
wasn't entirely clear on how to deal with a blade like that.
I read (glanced really) at the part about setting the "zero point" but
it seems like I'd have to do that from both sides of the blade to get
it spot on. That's fine, just a little extra work but will that affect
setting angles? It seems like I'd have to always have the blade at the
same depth when I set the angle. Hope my confusion makes sense!
Currently I use a Shopsmith which throws additional wrenches in the
works,
but hey, I can change! ;-) (Actually, I do want to move to stand-alone
tools as soon as Ed McMahan sends me that check!) Having the ability
to set specific angles easily would be great, as I do segmented turning
which requires odd angles and tight tolerances.
TIA...
...Kevin
Ed Bennett wrote:
(whole bunch stuff)
Frank Hagan
>
>Limited Budget!?! See, dar's yer problem right there. You need a job that
>pays more money! GDAR (Grin, duck and run).
Did that, but they actually want me to work. So I don't get enough
time in the shop with my new Jet saw; I've waxed it more than I've
used it to cut with (I live near the ocean, and so I'm building up
layers of Johnson's paste wax on the cast iron hoping to avoid rust.)
SWMBO peeked in and said that I rub the saw more than I rub her. I
think that was a hint, but there was this glaze on the saw I had to
rub off . . .
Ed Bennett
>Hi Ed,
>
>I've got a quick question for you. I have a Freud thin kerf blade, of
>some flavor or another which is hollow ground. I believe that's the
>appropriate term - the space between the hole and and the rim is sorta
>dished, presumably to reduce friction or some such. Anyway, I
>downloaded
>your TS Aligner Jr. manual from your web page (nicely done, BTW) but
>wasn't entirely clear on how to deal with a blade like that.
If the blade body is hollow ground (not flat) then you're not going to be able
to use it very easily with a TS-Aligner or any other dial indicator setup.
>I read (glanced really) at the part about setting the "zero point" but
>it seems like I'd have to do that from both sides of the blade to get
>it spot on. That's fine, just a little extra work but will that affect
>setting angles? It seems like I'd have to always have the blade at the
>same depth when I set the angle. Hope my confusion makes sense!
The "zero point" is set using a 45 degree reference. So, if you use your
blade as this reference you won't be able to get to both sides for comparing
the reading. Perhaps you are referring to the "one inch point"? This is the
one for measuring 90 degrees. You'll want to use a square to set this. Then,
if you make the reading on both sides of the blade identical you'll know that
it's square. Setting angles isn't going to be practical with the hollow
ground blade body. If you had a flat body blade then you wouldn't have to
worry about this.
>Currently I use a Shopsmith which throws additional wrenches in the
>works,
>but hey, I can change! ;-) (Actually, I do want to move to stand-alone
>tools as soon as Ed McMahan sends me that check!) Having the ability
>to set specific angles easily would be great, as I do segmented turning
>which requires odd angles and tight tolerances.
>
>TIA...
Yes, the tilting table on the Shopsmith does make this a bit more difficult
but not at all unreasonable. I wouldn't recommend trying to do any settings
without a flat body blade or a blade blank (flat plate designed for
alignments). The hollow ground blade body will just give you a lot of trouble
in your readings.
Kevin Miller
invention Ed. (Dealing w/hollow groud blades that is.)
But thanks for the clarification - guess I'll just have to start saving
for a new tablesaw and blade...
...Kevin
--
Kevin & Theresa Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Randy Wittchen
You can purchase metal discs to set up your saw from a number of outlets
(even Sears) which is often also sold as a sanding disc. Set up your
saw and then re-install the Freud blade. Also it is not that difficult
to use a dial indicator on this particular blade.
If you find out from the TS-Aligner Jr. that you have a blade which is
warped there is a nifty gadget out from Lee Valley to true up your blade
and which also acts as a blade dampener (or stiffener). See:
http://www.leevalley.com/woodwork/newprodu/jan99/trudisc.htm#top
Randy Wittchen
Kevin Miller
>
> Hi Kevin
>
> You can purchase metal discs to set up your saw from a number of outlets
> (even Sears) which is often also sold as a sanding disc. Set up your
> saw and then re-install the Freud blade. Also it is not that difficult
> to use a dial indicator on this particular blade.
Thanks Randy, but that won't work well on a Shopsmith. To take off the
blade I'd have to move the table and poof, there goes the adjustment.
It would maybe be OK for a 90 degree cut (but I'd expect it to be off
some) but for an angled cut it would be more problematic. I think Ed's
right: using a flat blade is the best option.
> If you find out from the TS-Aligner Jr. that you have a blade which is
> warped there is a nifty gadget out from Lee Valley to true up your blade
> and which also acts as a blade dampener (or stiffener). See:
> http://www.leevalley.com/woodwork/newprodu/jan99/trudisc.htm#top
>
> Randy Wittchen
Yeah, I've seen that. I probably won't get an Aligner until/unless I
get a decent table saw, so it would be overkill for now but its
something to keep in the back of my mind.
S'later...
....Kevin