TS-Aligner Fall 2006 Promotional Offer!
e...@ts-aligner.com
To show my appreciation to the wreck for all your help and support I
thought I would do something completely different this year.
How about a HALF PRICE sale!
Well, there are some strings attached...
First, I'm only offering one particular configuration of TS-Aligner Jr.
at half price (top teir dealer pricing). It's not a stripped down
model but it's also not a premium version. You get the complete
TS-Aligner Jr. with the Storage Case and the DVD but only one choice of
dial indicator: the standard MHC brand:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/optional-indicators.htm#Standard
No other parts or accessories or configurations are included in this
offer. The units will be brand new with the standard warranty and
everything.
Second, you have to buy a whole case of Jr's at once (16 units) - all
shipped to a single address. So, the offer isn't such a great deal for
someone who doesn't belong to a group or doesn't have any friends.
But, this is rec.woodworking. If you are reading this message then you
are already part of a really big group! All you guys have to do is
decide which of you is trustworthy enough to organize the purchase and
distribute the Aligners when they come in.
Third, the offer has a specific and limited duration. It will start on
November 1, 2006 and end on December 31, 2006.
Early Bird Ebay Offer:
As an experiment I have put up one case of these TS-Aligner Jr's on
Ebay. If you want, you can get a jump on the promotion by taking
advantage of it. It is item #150051217493. Look here for all the
details:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150051217493&ssPageName=ADME:L:DSS:US:11
Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. If you think
the group would benefit from the answer please feel free to post your
question/comment here. It would also make sense to use this thread to
organize your purchase(s). I will post a message to this thread on
November 1 with the URL of the page where cases of Jr's can be
purchased online. I will also be posting reminders to this thread
throughout the promotion to make sure that everyone who visits the
wreck gets a chance to see it.
Thanks,
Ed Bennett
e...@ts-aligner.com
http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
notmenotnow
<e...@ts-aligner.com> wrote in message
news:1161969092.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lee Michaels
"notmenotnow" <ary...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2Be1h.25015$GN5....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!
Mr Bennett contributes here and provides technical expertise into the
precise alignment of tools. If technical expertise and meaningful
discussions offend you, please go elsewhere.
He is elsewhere in this newsgroup right now offering assistance to somebody
who who damaged his tablesaw. Have you made an expert contribution to that
thread?
charlie b
>
> WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!
Might want to look before you leap - to a conclusion.
The gentleman in question has been an active contributor to
this group for at least 7 years that I know of, has a very
well thought out and useful set of set up devices product
line which he often makes available to members of this
group at special prices.
I have a Robland combination machine which has a dovetail
shaped miter slot that's quite different from what is found
no Delta and PowerMatic table saws. Mr. Bennett modified
one of his TS-Aligner Junior Deluxe units to accomodate
the Robland - at no additional cost. He has since added
a Robland version of the TS-Aligner to his product line. I
hope my recomendation of the TS-aligner to members of
the yahoo Robland X31 group resulted in some sales for
Mr. Bennett, and made setting up the X31 a little easier
for members of the group.
Oh, BTW - when Steve Knight of Knight Toolworks posts
something about a new handplane for sale - PLEASE
don't go off on him as a spammer.
And if Doug Stowe posts that he has a new book out
DON'T call him a spammer either.
If a Mr. Lee posts what you may think is an ad for
a product let it slide - and do a google search on
Groups - subject "Lee Valley" or -author "Robin Lee".
You're new here. Chill a little and get to know the
group a little better before going off on someone.
Lots of folks here with a lot of knowledge and
experience to share - much of which you will find
very useful.
Welcome to the group. Look foreward to your
questions and answers.
charlie b
charlie b
(how could I forget him in my previous post? dumb!)
charlie b
e...@ts-aligner.com
I'm not sure that there is anybody around to remember, but I think I
posted my first message to the group in 1994 (about 12 years ago!).
Perhaps some people still remember the dark days of the "Bennett Wars".
I recently found some of those messages and was pretty embarrassed!
What a learning experience.
It was in 1995 that I put a lot of ideas from group members together to
create TS-Aligner Jr. (it's why I think that this offer is so
appropriate). I cobbled together a prototype and took it with me to
the American Woodworker (pre Reader's Digest) show in Philadelphia. It
has evolved a lot over the years because of continued involvement from
members like you. Thanks!
The page for ordering 16 unit bulk packs of Jr's is now up:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/recwworderform.htm
I hope that this works out well for members of the group, their
friends, associates, relatives, and anyone else who is interested. If
people really don't think that this is a useful offer, then please let
me know what would be better.
I figured that at least one self appointed spam enforcement official
would cry foul. I really don't have to do anything for the group. I
don't have to share my expertise. I don't have to offer any special
deals to rec.woodworking members. I could just sit by, passivly
gathering email addresses for a spam list or gleaning ideas for new
products, taking advantage of the group without ever offering to return
the favor. There are a whole bunch of manufacturers and dealers doing
exactly that. They read this group daily and do nothing in return.
But, I choose to do things a little differently. And, I'm very
encouraged by those who recognize the effort. It leads me to believe
that this group still has a lot going for it.
Andrew Barss
And notmenow's apology to Ed, I'm sure, will be forthcoming any time now.
-- Andy Barss
DonkeyHody
notmenotnow wrote:
> WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like SPAM!
I am the proud owner of a TS-Aligner Jr. I don't use it every day, but
when I do use it, I find it indispensable. It is a very
well-thought-out precision instrument, and I'm quite happy with my
purchase. My point is, I never would have known that such a tool
existed if it were not for Mr. Bennett's posts to this forum. Thanks
Ed, and your occassional "spams" are welcome in my book.
DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain
todd...@yahoo.com
newsgroups that I've spent years on has been people trying to make a
profit from the group. What happens is that the number of profiteers
increases over time. The group then turns into nothing but a bunch of
marketers and is no longer useful to anyone in the hobby. Fights erupt
when multiple people try to market the same product or when someone
profits off the free advice of another. Marketers then become less
"hobbiest" and more business men.
I really hope this group doesn't degrade into that because I've already
left two hobbies behind that have gone that route. I mention this for
everyone to consider. If there is no line drawn then ads from every
marketer of woodworking products will flood this group. I've watched
it happen. What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase. A purchase
that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.
I don't mind it when people who have products to sell come here to
exchange ideas and talk about woodworking. I'd just rather see them
limit their marketing to their own website. A hyperlink in your
signature is a lot less intrusive and would be less likely to offend
people than a blatant advertisement.
That's my .02 worth.
Lee Michaels
<todd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162392281....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
elswhere.
Maybe the basketweaving and cross stitching newsgroups can meet your high
standards of non involvement.
Bruce Barnett
>What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
> any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
> that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase.
Incra, Delta etc. doesn't post here. Ed does. As does Steve Knight,
Robin Lee, etc.
The issues, as I see it, are
1) Is it excessive?
Well, it's been a year since the last special for TS Aligner Jr.
I bought one last year. Recommended if your budget can afford it.
I don't think 1 or 2 posts a year are excessive.
2) Is he responsive to consumers?
If a vendor treats this newsgroup as "write only memory" and
ignores all complaints, then they deserve what happens to them.
3) Is it purposely hard to filter?
Some trolls always change their name, subject, etc. and make
it hard to filter their announcements. Ed does not.
If you don't want to read about the TS Aligner - don't.
> A purchase
> that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
> practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.
So? I see more messages about people bitching than I see about the
original message. If some club wants to do a bulk order - fine. It
might work. It might not. You should be able to ignore one post a
year, and you should know how to use kill files if you don't want to
read anything by Ed, or anything about his promotions.
The other forums I visit have worse problems than vendors who
participate - like politics.
I too have seen forums degrade - and agree that speaking up when you
see a problem is the right thing to do.
But this is the FIRST time Ed made an offer for a bulk purchase.
I don't think Ed is doing the wrong thing here.
And I'd guess that the other vendors you had a problem with were much
less responsive than Ed is. I think you need to cut him some slack.
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
Doug Miller
are enthusiastic users of his alignment tools. Without Ed's posts to the
group, I would never have known that they exist. Ed's marketing is never
"hard-sell". His posts consist mostly of "here it is, it works, but don't just
take my word for it, ask around." Very low key, very professional -- and very
much appreciated, too.
You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer much
more from Ed's departure than from yours.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
B A R R Y
>
> And I'd guess that the other vendors you had a problem with were much
> less responsive than Ed is. I think you need to cut him some slack.
>
Ditto that.
Many of the vendors who post here are quick to add useful woodworking
information that often has little to do with the particular product they
sell.
todd...@yahoo.com
Lee Michaels wrote:
> If you get offended by good people offering good advice, you should move
> elswhere.
Never said I personally was offended but I can tell you that I won't
buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of
this forum to make a buck. I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway.
>
> Maybe the basketweaving and cross stitching newsgroups can meet your high
> standards of non involvement.
Whitewater Kayaking and Unicycling. Arcade Collecting is getting real
close to being worthless too.
There's no purpose in being synical about someone pointing out a
problem that is bound to become worse. I was trying to offer something
constructive while you obviously responded for the sake of criticizing
me. It would be nice to see some positive responses instead, such as
starting a group for woodworking vendors. If I wanted to look for
woodworking products (or spam) then I could go to that group and
browse. Instead I have to keep updating kill filters.
I realize that's the nature of usenet today but that's not the original
intent of it. I worked on the usenet software back in the early 80's
when I was a Marine. We were trying to take what Duke and Chapel Hill
had done and create an equivalent for the military. The purpose was to
allow people to educate and collaborate. The usenet of today is
quickly morphing from its root purpose into a system that's destined to
be inundated with commercial interests. The end result is that the
original purpose is not only lost but ceases to exist.
My original post in this thread was a "heads up" of what's to come and
a suggestion that the money makers respect the purpose of the group.
The responses I received from members were expected as this is exactly
what's happened along the way as other groups have deteriorated.
It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
and categorize me as "the minority". I didn't realize you were
president of this here usenet group. You must be a real important guy
- much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
decide who is more important than who. Perhaps you could share your
"org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.
I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
minority or majority thinks about the issue. Your attempt to minimize
my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
facts. But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in other
groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.
Lee Michaels
<todd...@yahoo.com
>
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>> If you get offended by good people offering good advice, you should move
>> elswhere.
>
> Never said I personally was offended but I can tell you that I won't
> buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of
> this forum to make a buck. I achieve the same thing at a much lower
> cost anyway.
>
Oh my god, I am being taken advantage of. I was not aware of this.
And the folks who come by and help us are entitled to make a buck. They
listen to us and we listen to them. And Ed's product, in particular, came
about to meet a need. And he has helped a lot of people learn about tuning
their saws.
The wreck would be a droll place if only folks with home shops just came
here. The professionals add a lot of expertise and knowledge to this forum.
And some of them even make a dreaded buck or two.
A tradtional rule in web forums is that it is spamming if you contribute
nothing. It ain't if you participate in a manner where expertise and
knowledge is communicated. Perhaps you have difficulty with the concepts of
communication, expertise and knowledge.
>>
>> Maybe the basketweaving and cross stitching newsgroups can meet your high
>> standards of non involvement.
>
> Whitewater Kayaking and Unicycling. Arcade Collecting is getting real
> close to being worthless too.
>
> There's no purpose in being synical about someone pointing out a
> problem that is bound to become worse. I was trying to offer something
> constructive while you obviously responded for the sake of criticizing
> me. It would be nice to see some positive responses instead, such as
> starting a group for woodworking vendors. If I wanted to look for
> woodworking products (or spam) then I could go to that group and
> browse. Instead I have to keep updating kill filters.
>
I am being "synical"??? You are offering constructive criticism?? I am
OBVIOUSLY responding in this fashion "for the sake of criticizing
you". It must be tough living in a world where everything happens because
of YOU.
I place a high value on information, creativity solutions to problems. I
don't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, politics or the fact they
may be be involved in a dreaded business. If the can help, inform or
entertain me, I appreciate and accept them. It is that simple.
One of the biggest impediments to using the web to its fullest is all the
whining net nannies. Since it is a great burden to updating your kill
filters to filter out all knowledgable people, I will try to help. I will
killfile you so as to not have to deal with your constant whining. There,
feel better?
> I realize that's the nature of usenet today but that's not the original
> intent of it. I worked on the usenet software back in the early 80's
> when I was a Marine. We were trying to take what Duke and Chapel Hill
> had done and create an equivalent for the military. The purpose was to
> allow people to educate and collaborate. The usenet of today is
> quickly morphing from its root purpose into a system that's destined to
> be inundated with commercial interests. The end result is that the
> original purpose is not only lost but ceases to exist.
>
Gee, the world is changeing. Does your whining help bring back the good old
days?
It may come as a great shock to you. but many people find the wreck to be
just fine. Even if it does not achieve some utopian ideal of yours.
> My original post in this thread was a "heads up" of what's to come and
> a suggestion that the money makers respect the purpose of the group.
> The responses I received from members were expected as this is exactly
> what's happened along the way as other groups have deteriorated.
>
You really have a thing for "money makers" don't you? Is it beyond your
comprehension that people can come together for a common benefit. And even
include a few of these dreaded "moneymakers".
I am here to tell you that these so called "moneymakers" have contributed
much to this newsgroup. We don't need your warnings of doom and gloom.
That is all I am going to say about this.
Into the bozo bucket for you.
Dave Bugg
> There's no purpose in being synical about someone pointing out a
> problem that is bound to become worse.
What a patronizing pant-load of crap. Ed's been around the wreck far longer
than you and is quite generous with help and advice. So your "prediction"
that Ed is the harbinger of the wreck's downfall is nonsense.
> I was trying to offer
> something
> constructive while you obviously responded for the sake of criticizing
> me.
That is the type of response on would expect from someone who thinks the
world revovles around them.
> It would be nice to see some positive responses instead, such as
> starting a group for woodworking vendors.
In *your* opinion you don't see the responses as positive. And you are free
to start any kind of group you wish.
> If I wanted to look for
> woodworking products (or spam) then I could go to that group and
> browse. Instead I have to keep updating kill filters.
Yup, as I said, you think things should revolve around *your* wishes and
desires. But please continue. Now, share some stories about your long-time
experience with usenet that makes you special. Go on, don't be bashful.
> I realize that's the nature of usenet today but that's not the
> original
> intent of it. I worked on the usenet software back in the early 80's
> when I was a Marine. We were trying to take what Duke and Chapel Hill
> had done and create an equivalent for the military. The purpose was
> to
> allow people to educate and collaborate. The usenet of today is
> quickly morphing from its root purpose into a system that's destined
> to
> be inundated with commercial interests. The end result is that the
> original purpose is not only lost but ceases to exist.
Just a sec......<brush, brush, brush, ACHOO, sniff, cough> Sorry; those
tales of yore sure stir up a lot of dust when dragged out of storage.
> My original post in this thread was a "heads up" of what's to come and
> a suggestion that the money makers respect the purpose of the group.
> The responses I received from members were expected as this is exactly
> what's happened along the way as other groups have deteriorated.
Sure, that's the explanation. Or maybe it's that Ed is seen as one of our
own and you are viewed as a meddling outsider?
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> You're not (quite)
>> the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
>> a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would
>> suffer much
>> more from Ed's departure than from yours.
> It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
> and categorize me as "the minority". I didn't realize you were
> president of this here usenet group.
Now that is clever. I've never heard that line before.
> You must be a real important guy
> - much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
> decide who is more important than who. Perhaps you could share your
> "org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.
Truly spoken by someone who seems to have trouble fitting in.
> I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
> advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
> minority or majority thinks about the issue.
Doug has been around for quite awhile and knows -- from experience -- the
temperament of the wreck and Ed's contributions here. That does make it
possible for him to know.
> Your attempt to minimize
> my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
> facts. But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in
> other
> groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.
I just love the tone of hyperbole in the morning. It sounds like.....
like.......whining.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <1162392281....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "todd...@yahoo.com" <todd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> You're not (quite) the only one here to feel the way you do -- but you are in
>> a very small minority, and it seems to me that the group would suffer much
>> more from Ed's departure than from yours.
>
>It's interesting that you speak for what you suggest is "the majority"
>and categorize me as "the minority".
My comments are based on observing the number of people who support Ed and his
(actually infrequent) posts here, and those like yourself who oppose his doing
so. On that basis, you *are* in a small minority.
>I didn't realize you were
>president of this here usenet group. You must be a real important guy
>- much more important than anyone else here. After all, you get to
>decide who is more important than who.
As opposed to yourself, who thinks he should get to decide who's allowed to
post, and post what, here...
I'm not trying to "decide who is more important than who". My statement is
clearly labelled as my _opinion_. That's what "it seems to me" means.
Seems I was right, too.
> Perhaps you could share your
>"org" chart with me so I can figure out where I fit in.
Guess.
>I didn't see a large number of responses for or against commercial
>advertisements, which makes it impossible to determine what the
>minority or majority thinks about the issue. Your attempt to minimize
>my involvement and interest in woodworking has nothing to do with
>facts.
I made no comments at all about your "involvement and interest in
woodworking". I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
to Ed Bennett's.
Seems I was right, too.
> But your response is familiar. Exactly what I've seen in other
>groups before they stopped being a place for hobbiests to meet.
Of course you're free to leave whenever you wish. Some folks may try to talk
you into staying.
Some won't.
Bruce Barnett
> Never said I personally was offended but I can tell you that I won't
> buy Ed's product based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of
> this forum to make a buck. I achieve the same thing at a much lower
> cost anyway.
Sure - a dial indicator on a stick can be used, but
1) You don't have an offset bar - letting you measure closer
to the table surface (which increases accuracy)
2) There is no angle measurement
3) Can't use it as a height gauge, (i.e. a jointer)
4) You don't get a spindle rod, letting you measure drill press
tables, etc.
Also - I had a problem trying to get my crosscut sled accurate, and I
send Ed an e-mail. He suggested some options, and solved my problem.
Yeah - it's a deluxe system. I like it.
Bruce Barnett
> Ed Bennett has contributed plenty to this group, and I and many
> others here are enthusiastic users of his alignment tools. Without
> Ed's posts to the group, I would never have known that they
> exist. Ed's marketing is never "hard-sell". His posts consist mostly
> of "here it is, it works, but don't just take my word for it, ask
> around." Very low key, very professional -- and very much
> appreciated, too.
Yeah! Well said. Ed's not a sales guy in a suit pushing crap. It's
like he's a regular guy who found a need for a product, made the
product, and started up a small business around this quality product.
This is exactly what we need more of.
Compare this to
Hello! I run a factory in China, and we will mass product
anything you want. Just send us enough money and we can copy
anything. Minimum order is $100,000.
B A R R Y
> I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
> to Ed Bennett's.
Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...
Dave Bugg
Joe Gorman
> B A R R Y wrote:
>
> >>Doug Miller wrote:
>>> I merely offered my opinion on your value to the group, relative
>>> to Ed Bennett's.
>
>> Not mention that Ed has a Cabal card...
>
> Shhh.....there is NO Cabal.
>
>
Joe
tomveatch
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Into the bozo bucket for you.
>
To Todd:
You make some good, and IMHO, valid points. They may not be applicable
in this particular case, but that's a judgment call. In general, they
are very good points. This is an unmoderated group and, as such, there
is some, not a lot, but some spam in this group.
A true spammer will just drop off the s**t and be gone. In this
instance, I don't believe that to be the case. But, that's just my
observation. I think most inhabitants of the Wreck just ignore the
spam, as they try, all too often unsuccessfully, to ignore the trolls
that crop up on occasion.
As you've undoubtedly noticed, there are some who feel awfully
paternalistic, defensive and, dare I say, possessive, toward the
Wreck. But, as it should be obvious to all, you are as much an "owner"
of the Wreck as anyone else who's here.
Oh, BTW, Semper Fi! I was there in the 60's, and there are a several
others of us around.
To Lee:
You also, make some valid points. But "whining"? I didn't see that.
Neither do I see a need to block your posts simply because of the ad
hominem contribution to this thread.
To All,
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by
the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if
you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be
watchful ...." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
And, if I may add to Jackson's words, it serves no good purpose to
attack the watcher when an alarm is raised. Much better to simply, and
dispassionately, educate the watcher if the alarm is false.
Doug Miller
>And, if I may add to Jackson's words, it serves no good purpose to
>attack the watcher when an alarm is raised. Much better to simply, and
>dispassionately, educate the watcher if the alarm is false.
OTOH, when the watcher continues to yammer after attempts have been made to
educate him...
Patriarch
news:%982h.1507$m54....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:
> In article <kfvhk2p609fcth76j...@4ax.com>, Tom Veatch
> wrote:
>
>>And, if I may add to Jackson's words, it serves no good purpose to
>>attack the watcher when an alarm is raised. Much better to simply, and
>>dispassionately, educate the watcher if the alarm is false.
>
> OTOH, when the watcher continues to yammer after attempts have been
> made to educate him...
>
MY ignore button works well...
Patriarch
Dave Bugg
> MY ignore button works well...
Which the TS-Aligner objector could choose to employ, if they were
reasonable.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
e...@ts-aligner.com
...a whole bunch of stuff but this one comment caught my attention. I
assume you were referring to the Jr. when you said:
> I achieve the same thing at a much lower
> cost anyway.
I have to admit that I've heard comments like this many times before
and am always hoping to find some clever new soltions that
comprehensively cover the functions of the Jr. at a "much lower cost".
So far 100% of the people who have said this didn't even bother to look
at the capabilities of the Jr. They just mount a cheap dial indicator
on a stick (or magnetic base) and assume that it does "the same thing".
Some have fashioned fancy gadgets by combinind two or more sticks but
essentially they just do table saw blade and fence alignment. While
there are competitive products which don't do anything more than a dial
indicator on a stick and they do sell for competitive prices, the Jr.
is different.
The question for you is this: Do you really have an innovative
solution?. Can you really "achieve the same thing" as a TS-Aligner Jr.
"at a much lower cost"? I'm naturally curious but I would think that
this is information that the whole group would be very interested in.
By all means, if you believe in the "original intent" of Usenet, share
your knowledge!
While you are busy checking out what a Jr. does, you might also bother
read my philosophy page:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/philosophy.htm
That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people can
make on their own at a "much lower cost".
e...@ts-aligner.com
How long ago did you bake them? I thought membership was closed many
years ago.
Now, where did I put that darn card...
Ed
Morris Dovey
1162420103....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com) said:
| That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people can
| make on their own at a "much lower cost".
I do - but I tell people that they can make their own cheaper than
they can buy mine - *and* I give free "look and learn" hints to help
'em do it.
<vbg>
(Sorry, the devil made me do it.)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
Lee Michaels
<e...@ts-aligner.com> wrote in message
news:1162420103....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
don't thaink that many businesses could come up with anything better.
I wonder if the original objector has a philosophy page?
tomveatch
wrote:
>
>OTOH, when the watcher continues to yammer after attempts have been made to
>educate him...
Then, I suppose it becomes a case of "What do you do after you 'turn
the other cheek'. Walk away, or call in an air strike?" :)
e...@ts-aligner.com
Actually, I tell people how to make the "dial indicator on a stick" all
the time. I even have a page devoted to comparing its capabilities to
my lowest cost Jr. Lite:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm
Jr. Lite still does a lot more. I think that there's some value to
selling something that people could do on their own. Lots of stuff I
buy falls into that category. I guess it's just my own personal
neurosis which keeps me awake at night if I were to do it.
Ed
Morris Dovey
1162424188....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com) said:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| e...@ts-aligner.com (in
|| 1162420103....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com) said:
||
||| That's where you will learn that I don't sell things that people
||| can make on their own at a "much lower cost".
||
|| I do - but I tell people that they can make their own cheaper than
|| they can buy mine - *and* I give free "look and learn" hints to
|| help 'em do it.
||
|| <vbg>
||
|| (Sorry, the devil made me do it.)
| No problem Morris!
|
| Actually, I tell people how to make the "dial indicator on a stick"
| all the time. I even have a page devoted to comparing its
| capabilities to my lowest cost Jr. Lite:
|
| http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm
|
| Jr. Lite still does a lot more. I think that there's some value to
| selling something that people could do on their own. Lots of stuff
| I buy falls into that category. I guess it's just my own personal
| neurosis which keeps me awake at night if I were to do it.
I know. I've visited your site and done some important looking and
learning there. If my woodworking were more dependent on the types of
tools your products help to calibrate, I'd almost certainly have been
a customer years ago.
I truly hope the current (and inevitable future) fooferaw over the
evolution of the Internet doesn't cause you personal discomfort. It's
an ever-changing world; and the one constant seems to be that we all
need to keep in mind is that it's important to contribute /something/
to the general welfare. IMO, you're not only doing that; you're also
making it easier for others to do the same.
I like your shop :-)
Joe Gorman
lost in the mail.
Joe
checking seals on PTM
B A R R Y
>
> Does that mean I get to eat the brownies I made to bribe my way in with?
> Joe
Never speak of the brownies!
Or the Cool-Aid....
todd...@yahoo.com
about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't
care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than
anything.
I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick.
I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the
true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in
giving you something else to sell. I can tell you that I get much
better accuracy with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms
that I swap in/out and an FPGA to calculate distance. Dial indicators
are mechanical and have flex in them. The only shortcoming of my
approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under
extreme circumstances.
Since I've made so many friends here lately, I thought I'd pay some of
them a visit. I wonder who I should visit first?
My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?
Maybe Lee in NYC? Or maybe I should just head on over to 5220 N Sawyer
Ave where Ed and I could debate the utility of our measurement tools.
Doug Miller
>I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried
>about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't
>care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than
>anything.
Uh-huh.
>
>I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick.
Not exactly. But you *did* say "I achieve the same thing at a much lower
cost anyway."
>I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the
>true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in
>giving you something else to sell.
<chuckle>
>I can tell you that I get much
>better accuracy
Even accepting that claim as true -- which I don't -- it's still pointless.
The accuracy and repeatability of the TS-Aligner already exceed that of any
commonly available woodworking equipment. Greater accuracy is of no benefit.
>with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms
>that I swap in/out
I bet *that's* convenient.
> and an FPGA to calculate distance.
Still cheaper than the TS-Aligner, huh? I doubt it, somehow.
>Dial indicators
>are mechanical and have flex in them.
I'm sure some of the machinists here will have a comment or two on that one.
<g>
>The only shortcoming of my
>approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under
>extreme circumstances.
ROTFLMAO!! You've devised a system that's (a) cheaper than the TS-Aligner, and
(b) is so precise that its accuracy can be affected by atmospheric conditions.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
>
>Since I've made so many friends here lately, I thought I'd pay some of
>them a visit. I wonder who I should visit first?
>
>My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?
Oooohhhhhh... you can do a whois lookup to find publicly available
information. Wow. I'm so impressed.
Come on over. You're welcome any time. Bring your magical alignment system
along, and we'll compare it to the TS-Aligner Junior in my shop.
e...@ts-aligner.com
I do have some familiarity with laser interferometers (used them at IBM
and HP) and other optical measurement instruments (I have a fully
equipped autocollimator in my Metrology lab). So I hope you understand
exactly why I firmly believe that your statement contains a fair amount
of bovine fecal matter. Many people who don't understand what you are
talking about might not be able to discern the facts but I actually
can. Just saying that you do this automatically puts you in the camp
of people who don't understand what you are talking about. Especially
if you think that the alignment of woodworking machinery is influenced
by the mechanical "flex" in dial indicators or atmospheric turbulence
disrupting the stability of your interferometer.
There is nothing to "debate" here about the "utility" of your solution.
This is not "the same thing" and it is definitely not "much lower
cost". You are not going to use such a setup to align table saws, set
jointer knives or tram drill press tables. It won't measure blade tilt
or miter gauge angles. And, such a setup can never sell for less than
$200 (except for those who use the five finger discount at the midnight
super sale). The closest thing I've ever seen was a 20 year old HP
setup on Ebay and it went for an order of magnitude more than a
TS-Aligner Jr. (still kicking myself for letting that one go!).
By the way I'm not a big fan of veiled threats. So, if you do decide
to visit I will be happy to arrange free accommodations including
meals. The Garden City Police Department is about two blocks away.
Doug Miller
>
>By the way I'm not a big fan of veiled threats. So, if you do decide
>to visit I will be happy to arrange free accommodations including
>meals. The Garden City Police Department is about two blocks away.
Ed -- please have a look at my post titled "Strange phone call this morning".
tomveatch
wrote:
...
>
>Come on over. You're welcome any time. Bring your magical alignment system
>along, and we'll compare it to the TS-Aligner Junior in my shop.
Ya know, Doug, I'm beginning to regret my prior voice of moderation.
A Google search finds only one occurrence of Mr/Ms "notmenotnow"
anywhere, in any group. That may not be accurate since that's the
first time I've used Google for that purpose. But, in light of that
and the tone of some recent posts, I'm seriously thinking "sockpuppet"
or, to paraphrase the elusive "notmenotnow":
"WTF is this???????? Sounds - Looks - Walks, like TROLL!"
Locutus
<todd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162474670....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Since I've made so many friends here lately, I thought I'd pay some of
> them a visit. I wonder who I should visit first?
>
> My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?
> Maybe Lee in NYC? Or maybe I should just head on over to 5220 N Sawyer
> Ave where Ed and I could debate the utility of our measurement tools.
>
This is one of the lamest things I have ever seen on usenet...
Doug Miller
It gets lamer. He actually phoned me this morning -- see my post titled
B A R R Y
I'm sure 3272 W 42nd. Street, NY, is a single family home. He could
wait in the driveway! <G>
Doug Miller
B A R R Y
>
> ?? I don't live in NY.
>
Do you watch TV?
That area is in Manhattan, near Times Square. <G>
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> ?? I don't live in NY.
>>
>
>Do you watch TV?
Rarely.
>
>That area is in Manhattan, near Times Square. <G>
Oh.
Bruce Barnett
> On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:07:47 GMT, spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
> wrote:
>
> ...
>>
>>Come on over. You're welcome any time. Bring your magical alignment system
>>along, and we'll compare it to the TS-Aligner Junior in my shop.
>
> Ya know, Doug, I'm beginning to regret my prior voice of moderation.
>
> A Google search finds only one occurrence of Mr/Ms "notmenotnow"
> anywhere, in any group.
I count four postings - over a period of 6 years.
3 in the wreck.
I could even guess his name, but will just say his initials are AR.
But his e-mail is ...@cfl.rr.com and
X-Trace: tornado.tampabay.rr.com
So notmenotnow's from Florida - I'd guess.
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
todd...@yahoo.com
didn't want other
people to know their exact addresses so I only posted enough for them
to know that
I can also google up some data. I tried replying with e-mail but that
keeps
bouncing back.
Obviously someone had the desire to look me up and threaten me via
e-mail. Why are
Ed and Doug so hostile over me suggesting that they keep marketing off
the
newsgroup? So hostile that they'll lie about me calling them? They
must be making
more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were.
For the record, I haven't called anyone. This is a discussion forum,
not a
wrestling ring. You can also rest assured that having a public
disagreement with me is an automatic exclusion from being harmed. If
that was my intent that I wouldn't have replied at all. Speaking of
which, I'm not the one who responded with insults in the first place.
I just pointed out that I would rather not see advertising here.
I own a small company that improves manufacturing processes through the
use of
lasers. We engineer the systems and write embedded front-ends to
process data for
various pre-made laser systems. One of my favorite vendors is just
down the road.
Check out their product page at:
http://www.pinlaser.com/products.html
If you checked out the website you'll see that this company makes
products that measure DISTANCE using lasers. They also measure ANGLES
and that data is used to CALIBRATE machinery. It's not rocket science.
Dial indicators aren't used as much
for calibration anymore. Back when Ed and Doug were working for Mr.
Slate in the
quarry, dial indicators were cool. Today people have the option of
precision using
lasers. The client I'm working with today uses a system we developed
to ensure the
circumference of their cigarettes is consistent. That's 8000
cigarettes per minute
per machine. Each cigarette is measured 20 times from different
angles. Because
smoking is an obsessive behavior, it's important that a smoker always
have the
exact same experience when they light up. That includes, length,
circumference,
weight, color, odor, etc. Lasers are used to help achieve that.
Lasers are prone to atmospheric interruption, particularly in a
manufacturing environment. Tobacco dust of .2 microns can throw
measurements out of whack. So can adverse changes in humidity. Most
of the time we engineer a known positive airlow into the system to keep
dust out of the stream. Be sure to read this little blurb on that:
http://www.pinlaser.com/faq.html#q15
The calibration tool I put together for my shop uses a laser that's
specifically made for measurements. The cost is $70. I use a Xilinx
Spartan 3 FPGA
(http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/spartan_series/spartan3_fpgas/index.htm)
to control the laser, check sensors, run the UI and calcluate the trig.
I think I paid $6 for it. I did use a Motorola 68000 CPU core,
implemented in verilog and programmed into the FPGA.
(http://opencores.org) This was due to cost/speed/familiarity. I also
used a compact flash slot and System Ace interface chip to program the
FPGA on powerup. The entire solution is around $90. I'm not the first
person to do this by any means but wanted to try rolling my own.
This guy gives a simple explanation of how distance is measured with
lasers but I do I'm doing it a little differently. I use the latency
instead.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1410/lab-Project-11.html
So what can my setup do that Ed's doesn't? First, you can take
measurements when a
machine is running. Want to detect blade wobble? How about blade
flatness or tooth pitch consistency? Turn on the saw, select the test
and hit a button. When the memory fills up the test is over. Download
the data to your PC and graph. Ed's device is also limited to 2
measurement points. If you want to miter slot alignment, my device
will measure from A through C, not just A and C. A and C refer to end
points. B is the middle. Ed's device also requires the use of goofy
triangles and charts to determine an angle. Yes Ed, I have bought one
of your products.
In the near future you'll likely see a similar device being marketed.
I don't own the patents needed to make something like this happen but I
can put one together. The big plus in laser calibration is that most
of the physical deviations of a device like Ed's are gone. You don't
have bearings, rails, steel rods or a slab of aluminum that will
deviate in changing conditions.
Well, there you have the answers to many things that Ed and Doug stated
are false. They declared themselves the experts. Doug stated that
atmospheric conditions wouldn't affect a laser. Ed stated that
measuring angles with a laser is not possible. Both said it would be
too expensive. In fact, Ed said that I couldn't make the same thing
cheaper. Ed must not know that I have a mill and some T11 sitting in
the shop. I'm pretty confident that I could copy his design in a day
or perhaps two. But why bother when I have one that I don't use
anymore?
What was the purpose in Doug and Ed stating something that's not true?
Were these
lies or deliberate attempts to mislead the group? Are they just trying
to sell more product? Why is it that Ed and Doug decided to be
aggressive towards me when I started with a friendly comment? I'd say
they feel that their superiority as the all-knowing guru's of this
newsgroup is threatened. There's nothing wrong with other people being
more knowledgable in a subject than I am. That's just the way it is.
Ed and Doug should learn to accept that too.
BTW: Whichever one of you has my address is welcome to send me an x-mas
card.
Andrew Barss
: Lasers are prone to atmospheric interruption, particularly in a
: manufacturing environment. Tobacco dust of .2 microns can throw
: measurements out of whack.
Well, then thank goodness no dust or anything would occur in a woodworking
shop to interfere with on of your spiffy laser alignbment systems for a tablesaw.
Gonna git me one real soon now!
-- Andy Barss, happy with his TS Aligner Jr.
Andrew Barss
: I wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I was worried
: about the reponses I got. I really did expect it and I really don't
: care what those who responded think. I'm more entertained by it than
: anything.
Ah, a troll.
: I never said I could achive the same thing that ed does with a stick.
: I would have gladly enlighted some of you before but understanding the
: true profiteer nature that many of you have, I don't see a purpose in
: giving you something else to sell. I can tell you that I get much
: better accuracy with a system I put together with a cheap laser, prisms
: that I swap in/out and an FPGA to calculate distance. Dial indicators
: are mechanical and have flex in them. The only shortcoming of my
: approach is atmospheric conditions which only come into play under
: extreme circumstances.
Your name wouldn't be Steve Strickland, would it now?
Where do you put the shag carpet in?
-- Andy Barss
e...@ts-aligner.com
todd...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The posting of addresses is in reply to e-mails I've received. I
> didn't want other
> people to know their exact addresses so I only posted enough for them
> to know that
> I can also google up some data. I tried replying with e-mail but that
> keeps
> bouncing back.
It would appear that there's some confusion. I never sent you any
email. My email server does not have any record of any email messages
from you.
> Obviously someone had the desire to look me up and threaten me via
> e-mail.
Not me.
> Why are
> Ed and Doug so hostile over me suggesting that they keep marketing off
> the
> newsgroup?
I never said anything to you about your protesting my message.
> So hostile that they'll lie about me calling them?
I never said that you called me. I said that I received a call from
the same number that Doug did and that I know exactly who it is. It
appears that you accept guilt before being accused.
> They
> must be making
> more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were.
Actually, Doug makes no money from the sale of my products. And I make
next to no money! Honestly, every month is a major struggle. I have
to keep a lot of irons in the fire to make ends meet.
And, I don't make anything out of sheet metal. Everything I sell is
machined from aluminum extrusions, or ground rod and flat stock
(steel).
> For the record, I haven't called anyone.
Great, I never said that you did. And, that address and phone number
isn't yours, right?
> This is a discussion forum,
> not a
> wrestling ring. You can also rest assured that having a public
> disagreement with me is an automatic exclusion from being harmed. If
> that was my intent that I wouldn't have replied at all.
Glad to hear it. So, the veiled threats were....just for effect?
> Speaking of
> which, I'm not the one who responded with insults in the first place.
> I just pointed out that I would rather not see advertising here.
Fine. So you retract the veiled threats, right?
> I own a small company that improves manufacturing processes through the
> use of
> lasers. We engineer the systems and write embedded front-ends to
> process data for
> various pre-made laser systems. One of my favorite vendors is just
> down the road.
>
> http://www.pinlaser.com
Nice products. Still, they don't seem to do "the same thing" or "cost
much less" than a TS-Aligner Jr. I would think that the work required
to adapt them to the alignment of woodworking machinery would far
exceed the cost of a Jr. Certainly the cost of even the least
expensive of these units must be more than $200, right? Someone who
owns a company that specializes in such adaptations should probably
know this.
> Check out their product page at:
>
> http://www.pinlaser.com/products.html
>
> If you checked out the website you'll see that this company makes
> products that measure DISTANCE using lasers. They also measure ANGLES
> and that data is used to CALIBRATE machinery. It's not rocket science.
I did check out the web site. I didn't see anything that could be used
to set blade tilt or miter gauge angles. Nothing to set jointer
knives. Nothing at all adapted for the alignment of any woodworking
machinery. I don't doubt that someone skilled in optical metrology
can't use this equipment to accomplish some of these tasks. But, this
isn't "the same thing" and it doesn't "cost much less".
> Dial indicators aren't used as much
> for calibration anymore. Back when Ed and Doug were working for Mr.
> Slate in the
> quarry, dial indicators were cool. Today people have the option of
> precision using
> lasers.
Do you really believe this? This is an exaggeration for effect, right?
Hyperbole, right? I would have to say that dial indicators (and their
digital cousins) are still selling pretty well - probably better than
any other time in history. Perhaps you could cite a major industrial
supplier who has replaced their offering of dial indicators with laser
measurement systems. I don't see any laser measurement systems in MSC,
Grainger, or McMaster. But they do have a boatload of dial indicators.
> The client I'm working with today uses a system we developed
> to ensure the
> circumference of their cigarettes is consistent. That's 8000
> cigarettes per minute
> per machine. Each cigarette is measured 20 times from different
> angles. Because
> smoking is an obsessive behavior, it's important that a smoker always
> have the
> exact same experience when they light up. That includes, length,
> circumference,
> weight, color, odor, etc. Lasers are used to help achieve that.
Sounds like a good application. Much better than blade tilt, miter
gauge angles, jointer knife alignment.
> Lasers are prone to atmospheric interruption, particularly in a
> manufacturing environment. Tobacco dust of .2 microns can throw
> measurements out of whack. So can adverse changes in humidity. Most
> of the time we engineer a known positive airlow into the system to keep
> dust out of the stream. Be sure to read this little blurb on that:
>
> http://www.pinlaser.com/faq.html#q15
>
Nothing here surprises me. Like I said, I've worked with lasers.
Can't afford my own setup but could use one if you are giving it away!
> The calibration tool I put together for my shop uses a laser that's
> specifically made for measurements. The cost is $70.
Where can a person buy such a laser for $70?
> I use a Xilinx
> Spartan 3 FPGA
> (http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/spartan_series/spartan3_fpgas/index.htm)
> to control the laser, check sensors, run the UI and calcluate the trig.
> I think I paid $6 for it. I did use a Motorola 68000 CPU core,
> implemented in verilog and programmed into the FPGA.
> (http://opencores.org) This was due to cost/speed/familiarity. I also
> used a compact flash slot and System Ace interface chip to program the
> FPGA on powerup. The entire solution is around $90. I'm not the first
> person to do this by any means but wanted to try rolling my own.
But, it doesn't do "the same thing" does it.
> This guy gives a simple explanation of how distance is measured with
> lasers but I do I'm doing it a little differently. I use the latency
> instead.
Distance is fine but it's still not adapted for aligning and adjusting
woodworking machinery.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1410/lab-Project-11.html
>
> So what can my setup do that Ed's doesn't? First, you can take
> measurements when a
> machine is running. Want to detect blade wobble? How about blade
> flatness or tooth pitch consistency? Turn on the saw, select the test
> and hit a button. When the memory fills up the test is over. Download
> the data to your PC and graph. Ed's device is also limited to 2
> measurement points. If you want to miter slot alignment, my device
> will measure from A through C, not just A and C. A and C refer to end
> points. B is the middle. Ed's device also requires the use of goofy
> triangles and charts to determine an angle.
It's not a question of what your device can do that mine cannot. It's
a question of your device being able to do everything that mine does.
> Yes Ed, I have bought one
> of your products.
Really? Earlier in the thread you said: "...I won't buy Ed's product
based solely on the fact that he's taking advantage of this forum to
make a buck." Now you say that you already have bought one of my
products. I must say that it's a bit confusing.
> In the near future you'll likely see a similar device being marketed.
> I don't own the patents needed to make something like this happen but I
> can put one together. The big plus in laser calibration is that most
> of the physical deviations of a device like Ed's are gone. You don't
> have bearings, rails, steel rods or a slab of aluminum that will
> deviate in changing conditions.
Yes, but there's no need to be worried about any of these sources of
error when aligning woodworking machinery. And, you can't say that
there aren't some significant issues involved in laser measurement
devices (air turbulence, temperature variation, vibration, dust,
alignment, stability, etc.). If I'm certifying a large machining
center or boring mill, then the laser system is great. But, I really
don't think it has much application in the woodshop.
> Well, there you have the answers to many things that Ed and Doug stated
> are false.
I don't think so.
> They declared themselves the experts.
I didn't do it before, but I'll do it now: I am an expert! Sorry,
couldn't resist. I do have a whole bunch of years experience doing
this.
> Doug stated that
> atmospheric conditions wouldn't affect a laser.
I have the upmost respect for Doug but I can't speak for what he said.
> Ed stated that
> measuring angles with a laser is not possible.
No, that's not exactly what I said. In fact, that's not even remotely
close to what I said. I said: "You are not going to use such a setup
to align table saws, set jointer knives or tram drill press tables. It
won't measure blade tilt or miter gauge angles." So, was I wrong? Are
you using your laser to do all these things? We know what you claim
above (about being able to measure the blade wobble while the machine
is running) but what about practical things? Do you have the fixturing
necessary to do a blade alginment? How about blade tilt or miter gauge
angles? Can you do these sort of tasks in a practical, timely manner
in a working woodshop environment? Or, is this just a bunch of theory
and goofing around in your garage?
> Both said it would be
> too expensive. In fact, Ed said that I couldn't make the same thing
> cheaper.
That's not quite what I said. I asked you to explain your comments.
Specifically, I said: "Do you really have an innovative solution?. Can
you really "achieve the same thing" as a TS-Aligner Jr.
"at a much lower cost"?" You replied with a vague description of your
laser setup. So, I'm willing to be really liberal in my definition of
"much lower cost". If I give you $171.90 (one cent less than a
TS-Aligner Jr.) will you send me a complete laser setup that will
"achieve the same thing" that the TS-Aligner Jr. does? Be careful how
you answer. If you say "yes", then I might just call your bluff. And,
I bet that there might just be a few others in the group who would be
interested. If you say "no" then you are admitting that I was right.
> Ed must not know that I have a mill and some T11 sitting in
> the shop. I'm pretty confident that I could copy his design in a day
> or perhaps two. But why bother when I have one that I don't use
> anymore?
Well, we're not talking about my design, we're talking about yours.
But, I'm sure that if you don't count your time, cost of materials,
cost of equipment, and other various costs of doing business, then you
probably could copy a Jr. for less than my selling price. Big deal, I
do it all the time! That's how I make my living! If I couldn't make
it for less than the selling price I would have gone out of business a
long time ago.
The point is that you haven't done this yet. In your original
statement you said: "I achieve the same thing at a much lower cost".
You did not say "I could achieve the same thing at a much lower cost".
It's not a matter of what you can possibly do at some time in the
future, it's about what you are doing right now.
>
> What was the purpose in Doug and Ed stating something that's not true?
I wouldn't know. I didn't state anything that wasn't true. Did you
Doug?
> Were these
> lies or deliberate attempts to mislead the group?
Neither.
> Are they just trying
> to sell more product?
I'm trying to discern the truth of your claim. I don't think that Doug
is selling anything.
> Why is it that Ed and Doug decided to be
> aggressive towards me when I started with a friendly comment?
I'm not being aggressive toward you. I'm just trying to get you to
stand by your own claim.
> I'd say
> they feel that their superiority as the all-knowing guru's of this
> newsgroup is threatened. There's nothing wrong with other people being
> more knowledgable in a subject than I am. That's just the way it is.
> Ed and Doug should learn to accept that too.
I think you are getting a bit carried away here. Hyperbole again,
right?
> BTW: Whichever one of you has my address is welcome to send me an x-mas
> card.
I wouldn't have your address unless it was you that called. Don't you
remember? You were denying that up above. Are you now saying that it
was you that called? Is it your address that I have? I'm confused!
PS: you might have noticed that I sign my messages. I do this because
I believe in and stand behind what I say. I am not the sort to hide
behind some sort of anonymous moniker. You found my address (and a map
to my shop) because I put it up on my web site.
e...@ts-aligner.com
todd...@yahoo.com wrote:
> They
> must be making
> more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were.
Below you say that you own one. But here you call it a "hunk of sheet
metal". Anybody who owns a TS-Aligner Jr. would know that it's not
made from sheet metal. So, once again I'm confused. Both statements
can't be true. I wouldn't mind an explanation - especially since this
comment is not exactly complimentary.
Thanks,
charlie b
snip
> Your name wouldn't be Steve Strickland, would it now?
> Where do you put the shag carpet in?
>
Does sound kind of familar. And as I recall, the guy who
did the testing of the contestants' "precision samples"
used - wait for it - dial gauges, albeit very expensive dial
gauges.
Now about that laser device - if it's about $90 USD in parts
and it takes some time to order or go pick up the parts
and it takes some sticking the parts together and I'm guessing
it'd need some User Instructions which have to be written
and illustrated the printed and bound (ok stapled together)
and, unless it has a portable memory card so you can get
the data to a computer so you can use it, or does it plug
into a lap top that you need to take to the shop in order
to check a set up and fix if necessary . . .
I have enough trouble keeping my glasses clean in the shop.
Cleaning mirrors without screwing up their alignment?
I'm a tool phreak. If I could get one of these laser set up
devices, with a 30 day money back guarantee, and it was
less than $175 I want one! Hell I just blew close to $400
on the JoolTool just to keep my turning gouges nice and
sharp quickly and easily. Put me down for a unit - assuming
there's a 30 day money back guarantee.
Interesting links.
charlie b
who actually uses his real e-mail address
when he posts here - or anywhere else.
No drop out e-mail addresses for me.
fredf...@spamcop.net
e...@ts-aligner.com wrote:
> Thanks Charlie,
>
> I'm not sure that there is anybody around to remember, but I think I
> posted my first message to the group in 1994 (about 12 years ago!).
> Perhaps some people still remember the dark days of the "Bennett Wars".
> I recently found some of those messages and was pretty embarrassed!
> What a learning experience.
I remember when people here used to take you to task for refering
to yourself as something like "the inventor of the table saw aligner"
in your .sig.
Here's a blast from the past:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/msg/64044217319b60bd?dmode=source&hl=en
Back then you wouldn't have even considered posting an ad in this
newsgroup. Now some of the most vocal newbies here, like
Mr Miller and Mr Michaels are defending you. How the times
have changed.
Anyhow, regarding SPAM:
http://www.spam.com/ci/ci_in.htm
regarding Usenet spam:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.celebrities/msg/7dd136c6963131de?dmode=source&hl=en
As to whether or not your ad was appropriate to this newsgroup,
well, discussion of what is or is not on topic for rec.woodworking
is off-topic for rec.woodworking, isn't it?
--
FF
Dave Bugg
> My buddy at 841 N Kentucky Ave?? Maybe the one at 3272 W 42nd St?
> Maybe Lee in NYC? Or maybe I should just head on over to 5220 N
> Sawyer Ave where Ed and I could debate the utility of our measurement
> tools.
Wow, a real live netkOOk. Come over anytime, you'll get a real good
reception. Here's a link to wish ya well:
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
Doug Miller
>Tom Veatch writes:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 14:07:47 GMT, spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>>
>>>Come on over. You're welcome any time. Bring your magical alignment system
>>>along, and we'll compare it to the TS-Aligner Junior in my shop.
>>
>> Ya know, Doug, I'm beginning to regret my prior voice of moderation.
>>
>> A Google search finds only one occurrence of Mr/Ms "notmenotnow"
>> anywhere, in any group.
>
>I count four postings - over a period of 6 years.
>
>3 in the wreck.
>
>I could even guess his name, but will just say his initials are AR.
>
>But his e-mail is ...@cfl.rr.com and
>X-Trace: tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>
>So notmenotnow's from Florida - I'd guess.
>
Doug Miller
>The posting of addresses is in reply to e-mails I've received.
Liar. I never sent you any email, yet you posted my address.
> I didn't want other people to know their exact addresses so I only posted
> enough for them to know that I can also google up some data. I tried
> replying with e-mail but that keeps bouncing back.
Liar. My true email address is in the sig line of my posts, and I have
received no email from you.
>
>Obviously someone had the desire to look me up and threaten me via e-mail.
Liar.
> Why are Ed and Doug so hostile over me suggesting that they keep marketing
> off the newsgroup? So hostile that they'll lie about me calling them?
*You* are the one lying here. And if you call me again, I'll file a written
complaint of harassment with the telco -- and once they obtain proof, I will
file charges.
>They
>must be making
>more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were.
I'm not making *any* money from Ed's device (which you clearly know absolutely
nothing about, as there isn't any sheet metal anywhere in it). *Ed* made money
off of *me* (which he deserves -- it's a fine product). I bought one of Ed's
products once. That is the *only* connection between us. Ed makes a fine
product, he stands behind it, and he is unfailingly courteous, gentlemanly,
and professional. I'm a fully satisfied customer, and I have no hesitation
about saying so -- and I have never received anything from Ed in return except
"Thank you" (nor do I expect to).
>
>For the record, I haven't called anyone.
That's odd -- somebody who lives in your neck of the woods *did*, and said he
was "coming over" -- shortly after I invited you to do so. Somebody with the
phone number 205-257-4369. That's not you, huh?
>This is a discussion forum,
>not a
>wrestling ring. You can also rest assured that having a public
>disagreement with me is an automatic exclusion from being harmed.
Given all the other lies you've told in this post, please pardon me if I'm a
bit skeptical.
> If
>that was my intent that I wouldn't have replied at all. Speaking of
>which, I'm not the one who responded with insults in the first place.
>I just pointed out that I would rather not see advertising here.
[snip much irrelevantia]
>So what can my setup do that Ed's doesn't? First, you can take
>measurements when a machine is running.
Why the hell would I want to? I can obtain perfectly good alignments using the
TS-Aligner in accordance with the instructions.
> Want to detect blade wobble? How about blade
>flatness or tooth pitch consistency?
Nope. Don't need to. I buy Forrest blades. They take care of that for me.
Haven't had a problem yet.
>Turn on the saw, select the test
>and hit a button. When the memory fills up the test is over. Download
>the data to your PC and graph.
Why the hell would I want to do that? After I align my saw, I want to start
cutting wood, not play with my PC. I don't *care* about graphing anything, I
just want to get my saw set up so I can make furniture.
>Ed's device is also limited to 2
>measurement points. If you want to miter slot alignment, my device
>will measure from A through C, not just A and C. A and C refer to end
>points. B is the middle.
Apparently it has escaped your notice that it requires only two points to
establish a line, not three. Measuring the distance from the miter slot to the
blade at the front and the back of the blade is all that's necessary to
determine whether the two are parallel.
> Ed's device also requires the use of goofy
>triangles and charts to determine an angle.
The charts are provided as a convenience for those who aren't able to perform
trigonometric calculations on their own.
> Yes Ed, I have bought one
>of your products.
I won't believe that until Ed confirms it -- if you actually had the
TS-Aligner (or if you had even looked at Ed's website) you'd know that it's
not made of "sheet metal".
>
>In the near future you'll likely see a similar device being marketed.
I can hardly wait.
>I don't own the patents needed to make something like this happen but I
>can put one together. The big plus in laser calibration is that most
>of the physical deviations of a device like Ed's are gone. You don't
>have bearings, rails, steel rods or a slab of aluminum that will
>deviate in changing conditions.
And you'll be able to sell this at a price competitive with Ed's products.
Go for it.
I'm not going to hold my breath.
>
>Well, there you have the answers to many things that Ed and Doug stated
>are false. They declared themselves the experts.
Liar. I never declared myself to be an expert.
> Doug stated that atmospheric conditions wouldn't affect a laser.
Liar. I never said that.
[snip]
>
>What was the purpose in Doug and Ed stating something that's not true?
What is *your* purpose in making this post that is just chock-FULL of lies,
and then accusing *me* of lying? I haven't made one single statement of fact
in this thread that isn't true, and all of my statements of opinion have been
labelled as such. *You*, on the other hand, have made _at_least_ eight clearly
demonstrable lies in this post up to this point; no telling yet how many
follow.
>Were these
>lies or deliberate attempts to mislead the group?
The only lies here are yours.
Nine.
>Are they just trying
>to sell more product?
I'm not trying to sell product. I'm a *customer* of the Edward J. Bennett
company. That's all.
Ten.
>Why is it that Ed and Doug decided to be
>aggressive towards me when I started with a friendly comment?
You didn't start with a "friendly comment", you started with a complaint about
one of the most respected and respectable members of this group.
Eleven.
And neither Ed -- twelve -- nor I -- thirteen -- have been "aggressive" toward
you. Until now.
>I'd say
>they feel that their superiority as the all-knowing guru's of this
>newsgroup is threatened.
And I'd say that you've really got your panties in a wad.
>There's nothing wrong with other people being
>more knowledgable in a subject than I am. That's just the way it is.
Oh, believe me, it's quite obvious there are other people more knowledgeable
in this subject than you. Ed is one of them.
>Ed and Doug should learn to accept that too.
I certainly accept that there are other people more knowledgeable than I. Ed
is one of them. Whether you are or not may be open to question.
>
>BTW: Whichever one of you has my address is welcome to send me an x-mas
>card.
I don't have your address. And you misspelled "Christmas".
Doug Miller
>Andrew Barss wrote:
>
> snip
>
>> Your name wouldn't be Steve Strickland, would it now?
>> Where do you put the shag carpet in?
>>
>
>
> Does sound kind of familar. And as I recall, the guy who
> did the testing of the contestants' "precision samples"
> used - wait for it - dial gauges, albeit very expensive dial
> gauges.
I believe that would have been me. Actually, I used a micrometer, accurate to
a ten-thousandth, which I borrowed from my father-in-law (a retired tool and
die maker)
Doug Miller
>Back then you wouldn't have even considered posting an ad in this
>newsgroup. Now some of the most vocal newbies here, like
>Mr Miller and Mr Michaels are defending you. How the times
>have changed.
Ummmm.... I'm not exactly a newbie, Fred: my first post to the wreck was more
than ten years ago.
todd...@yahoo.com
humor. Got one? I do have one of your aligners but I didn't buy it.
It's one of the many tools that's found its way from my fathers shop to
mine. I got some good use out of it while making a homebrew CNC
machine (that's still not finished). Yes it's very sturdy and very
heavy and I'd probably use it a whole lot more if I didn't have access
to the laser toys I work with.
I think you didn't quite get what pinlaser products are designed to
accomplish. They're specifically made for calibrating machinery. That
includes lathes, joiners, saws, mills, etc. The best part is that you
can can troubleshoot issues that only crop up when the equipment is
running. Yes, the solutions I install with their products are very
expensive. I wouldn't use them in my shop because I can't afford that.
If you do a google search, most laser calibration tools include the
hardware and software to control the laser and detection units. I put
mine together from just a laser. The logic is what costs you. I could
have gone with a cheaper laser but I got stuck with an extra from a
previous job. I didn't just "fiddle around in the shop" as you
suggested. Not entirely. I do this for a living but if you count
precision milling, programming gate arrays and writing controller code
"fiddling" then I suppose you could say your correct.
As for your other question, no it's not my phone number so that doesn't
bother me. The one sent in the email is obviously correct so yes, it's
a bit disturbing that someone has nothing better to do. I never made a
veiled threat to anyone. I don't live south of the mason dixon
anymore. I never said Ed wasn't knowledgable at calibration - only
that he's not an expert at everything - nobody is. My OP just said
that I'd prefer not to see advertising here. I'm surprised how that
comment led to all the aggressive language. I'm not what I'd consider
to be a newbie to the rec. I've just done a lot of lurking over the
past few years. Mostly because I've seen threads like this in the
past.
I have to get back out to a client now. I don't get to sit at home and
post messages all day like some of you.
Doug Miller
> I never made a
>veiled threat to anyone.
Sure looked to me like a veiled threat. And to other people.
Fourteen.
> I don't live south of the mason dixon anymore.
Oddly enough, the NNTP headers of this message show that it was posted through
'lds.al.charter.com'. That wouldn't happen to be located in... Alabama...
would it?
Fifteen.
Larry Blanchard
> I don't have your address. And you misspelled "Christmas".
Yep. The proper spelling is S a t u r n a l i a :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> I don't have your address. And you misspelled "Christmas".
>
>Yep. The proper spelling is S a t u r n a l i a :-).
>
fredf...@spamcop.net
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <1162530307.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, fredf...@spamcop.net wrote:
>
> >Back then you wouldn't have even considered posting an ad in this
> >newsgroup. Now some of the most vocal newbies here, like
> >Mr Miller and Mr Michaels are defending you. How the times
> >have changed.
>
> Ummmm.... I'm not exactly a newbie, Fred: my first post to the wreck was more
> than ten years ago.
>
That all? Heck AOL has been gated to Usenet longer than that.
--
FF
fredf...@spamcop.net
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip030411sn.html
After aligning the blade parallel to the miter slot the
same or a similar tool can be used to align the fence
to the miter slot, right?
--
FF
Doug Miller
you've changed your posting ID substantially).
fredf...@spamcop.net
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <1162576189.6...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, fredf...@spamcop.net wrote:
> >
> >Doug Miller wrote:
> >> In article <1162530307.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > fredf...@spamcop.net wrote:
> >>
> >> >Back then you wouldn't have even considered posting an ad in this
> >> >newsgroup. Now some of the most vocal newbies here, like
> >> >Mr Miller and Mr Michaels are defending you. How the times
> >> >have changed.
> >>
> >> Ummmm.... I'm not exactly a newbie, Fred: my first post to the wreck was more
> >> than ten years ago.
> >>
> >
> >That all? Heck AOL has been gated to Usenet longer than that.
> >
> Maybe so... but it's four years longer than *you* have been here (unless
> you've changed your posting ID substantially).
>
I started reading usenet in 1991, and first posted to r.w in 1992.
I bet you've been doing serious woodworking longer than I.
--
FF
Greg O
<todd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162516340.9...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >
> The calibration tool I put together for my shop uses a laser that's
> specifically made for measurements. The cost is $70. I use a Xilinx
> Spartan 3 FPGA
> (http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/spartan_series/spartan3_fpgas/index.htm)
> to control the laser, check sensors, run the UI and calcluate the trig.
> I think I paid $6 for it. I did use a Motorola 68000 CPU core,
> implemented in verilog and programmed into the FPGA.
> (http://opencores.org) This was due to cost/speed/familiarity. I also
> used a compact flash slot and System Ace interface chip to program the
> FPGA on powerup. The entire solution is around $90. I'm not the first
> person to do this by any means but wanted to try rolling my own.
>
>
Great! How much is the retail, out the door price for those of us that want
one of your TS-Laser-Aligners??
I could scrounge up some parts and electronics and cobble something together
on the cheap too, but cost and retail are two very different things. Raw
cost on a TS-Alingner can not be much over a 12 pack, plus the indicator,
but add the engineering, the labor to machine, and some reasonable profit
and you end up with $150-$200.
Greg
Locutus
<todd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162564027.7...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Yes Ed, it's not made of sheet metal. That was a joke. Sense of
> humor. Got one? I do have one of your aligners but I didn't buy it.
> It's one of the many tools that's found its way from my fathers shop to
> mine.
ummm..... previously you said:
"Ed's device also requires the use of goofy
triangles and charts to determine an angle. Yes Ed, I have bought one
of your products."
So which product did you buy, since it obviously wasn't the TS-Aligner?
Charlie M. 1958
ironic that by choosing to make a controversy out of your original post
this fella has caused the words "TS-Aligner" to pop up in my message
window no less than 60 times!
I'm starting to feel a bit drowsy.......reaching into my back pocket
for the credit card......navigating to Ed's website.....
Dang it Ed, are you sure you didn't orchestrate the whole thing?
(big <g>)
Dave Hall
This is pretty close to what I use except I mounted a dial indicator
to it. It works for both uses for me.
e...@ts-aligner.com
todd...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Yes Ed, it's not made of sheet metal. That was a joke. Sense of
> humor. Got one?
I have a great sense of humor. However, your "joke" doesn't seem too
funny to me. Perhaps that's because the sentence "They must be making
more money off that hunk of sheet metal than I thought they were." is
not funny. In fact, it's rather disparaging. Many of your comments
about me and my products are rather disparaging and completely untrue.
I do take it rather personally because my integrity and honor are at
stake. I don't sell overpriced, flimsey hunks of sheet metal. I sell
accurately machined measurement instruments. And, your disparaging
remarks can adversely affect my ability to put food on the table and
keep the roof over my head. So, please forgive me for not laughing at
your "joke". I'm not holding these statements against you, and I'm not
holding your attempt to call them a joke against you. But, you should
stop and think about how they might affect you if they were made in a
public forum about you, your company and its products.
> I do have one of your aligners but I didn't buy it.
> It's one of the many tools that's found its way from my fathers shop to
> mine. I got some good use out of it while making a homebrew CNC
> machine (that's still not finished). Yes it's very sturdy and very
> heavy and I'd probably use it a whole lot more if I didn't have access
> to the laser toys I work with.
Thanks for clarifying. It's not exactly a retraction all of the
disparaging comments but it's a step in the right direction.
> I think you didn't quite get what pinlaser products are designed to
> accomplish. They're specifically made for calibrating machinery. That
> includes lathes, joiners, saws, mills, etc. The best part is that you
> can can troubleshoot issues that only crop up when the equipment is
> running. Yes, the solutions I install with their products are very
> expensive. I wouldn't use them in my shop because I can't afford that.
> If you do a google search, most laser calibration tools include the
> hardware and software to control the laser and detection units. I put
> mine together from just a laser. The logic is what costs you. I could
> have gone with a cheaper laser but I got stuck with an extra from a
> previous job. I didn't just "fiddle around in the shop" as you
> suggested. Not entirely. I do this for a living but if you count
> precision milling, programming gate arrays and writing controller code
> "fiddling" then I suppose you could say your correct.
Yes, one of the things that I noticed at the Pinpoint web site is that
there are no prices. There's not even a mention of prices. You know
that feeling you get when you go to a restaurant that has no prices on
the menu? If you have to ask then you can't afford it!
I could see that the Pinpoint products are designed for machinery
alignment and calibration. And, I know that their solutions can be
adapted to woodworking machines. But, they don't offer any ready made
solutions which "achieve the same thing" that the Jr. does. It would
seem that they focus on industrial solutions - mostly in the
metalworking industry.
I understand optical metrology. Believe me, I get it. That's why I
have so much trouble with what you are saying. If I didn't understand
the topic then I might just accept your vague descriptions and topical
diversions. You have said that your laser is a distance measurement
device. Fine. Now, how do you fixture that device so that you can
measure blade or fence alignment in relation to the miter gauge slot?
How do you fixture the laser so that you can measure blade tilt or
miter gauge angles? How do you fixture the laser so that you can
measure jointer knife alignment. These are not trivial questions so
they require something other than trivial answers. You can't just
point to some laser alignment tools and accessories on a web site and
declare that they work just great on woodworking machines.
> I didn't just "fiddle around in the shop" as you
> suggested. Not entirely. I do this for a living but if you count
> precision milling, programming gate arrays and writing controller code
> "fiddling" then I suppose you could say your correct.
The point is this: if your company created this solution for a
customer, would it still cost less than a Jr.? If you don't count your
time or any of the resources of your company in the cost, then it is
"fiddling aroudn in the shop" and the comparison is not valid. If all
I did was count the cost of materials, then I could claim that the Jr.
cost me a lot less than your solution.
> As for your other question, no it's not my phone number so that doesn't
> bother me. The one sent in the email is obviously correct so yes, it's
> a bit disturbing that someone has nothing better to do. I never made a
> veiled threat to anyone. I don't live south of the mason dixon
> anymore. I never said Ed wasn't knowledgable at calibration - only
> that he's not an expert at everything - nobody is. My OP just said
> that I'd prefer not to see advertising here. I'm surprised how that
> comment led to all the aggressive language. I'm not what I'd consider
> to be a newbie to the rec. I've just done a lot of lurking over the
> past few years. Mostly because I've seen threads like this in the
> past.
And, nobody in the group is coming forward to claim that they sent the
alleged email. Hmmmm.....
In your original message you characterized me as "bold" profiteer
trying to get group members to send me "$1K+". In your second message
you accused me of "taking advantage of this forum to make a buck" and
began to disparage my products by saying "I achieve the same thing at a
much lower cost anyway." I didn't respond to this "aggresive language"
with equally disparaging remarks, I just asked you to back up your
claims. And, I think I did it in a very polite manner.
In your third message you issued the veiled threats where you listed my
shop address and promised to pay me a visit. In response to
questioning your solution, and suggesting that it was "bovine fecal
matter" you accused me of being a "hostile" "liar" who responded with
"insults". You characterized my product as requiring "...the use of
goofy triangles and charts to determine an angle." and suffering from
"physical deviations" with "bearings, rails, steel rods or a slab of
aluminum that will deviate in changing conditions". I consider this to
be pretty "aggressive language".
Now, while the term "bovine fecal matter" isn't exactly complimentary,
it is not a disparaging statement about you personally, it's a comment
about what you said, . It's the most polite way I can think of to say
that I don't believe your statements. And I still feel that way for a
number of reasons. First, you continue to evade the original questions
with attempts to turn around the argument. Again, it's not about what
your device can do that mine can't. It's about your claim to
"...achieve the same thing at a much lower cost". Second, you have
preferred to issue veiled threats rather than calmly discuss the
original questions. Third, you have preferred to villify others
(myself and Doug) than to calmly discuss the original questions.
> I have to get back out to a client now. I don't get to sit at home and
> post messages all day like some of you.
Fourth, I have to keep reminding you that you haven't answered the
original questions. There's always time for you to post a reply, and
such replies have proven to be quite long and involved, but none have
answered the original questions.
I don't care about your opinion of my annual promotional offers to this
group. Obviously you haven't been watching this group very long
because I do it every year. Go search Google Groups if you don't
believe me. I do it out of gratitude for all the help that group
members have given to me during the year. And, I really don't make any
money doing it. I'm not going to get bent out of shape over your
protests, I'll let the others do that. I want to discuss the technical
aspects of your device vs. mine. Let's forget the threats and name
calling and accusations and other evasions of the original questions
and calmly discuss the solution that you claim can "...achieve the same
thing at a much lower cost."
Thanks,
charlie b
Should just let this thread be - but
Got ANY slop between the piece of wood you slip in the miter
slot and the sides of the miter slot? If you do it comes
acrossed in your measuring. If you don't then the wood
or even UMHW (or is it UHMW - ultra heigh molecular weight)
may/will bind in the miter slot as you slide down it to take
your second measurment.
Mr. Bennett's product (see how I got around using TS-Aligner?)
has three bearings under the part that travels down the
miter slot - two fixed and one moveable left/right to eliminate
slop while avoiding binding. And they can be removed when
not needed - like when checking/setting joiner/planer knives,
checking infeed and outfeed tables for parallel with the
joiner/planer cutter head, drill press and router run out,
. . .
I've got a Robland X-31 - five function combi with a sliding
table. More settings inter relationships than you can shake
a stick at - and it's a euro machine so there's metric just
to make things interesting. The TS-A makes the set up
and maintenance a bit easier - and every lit bit helps.
charlie b
ps - Anyone remember Stuart Brandt's (Whole Earth Catalog)
bulletin board The Well? Or the IMSAI? 8080, 8080A or 6502
ring any bells? On the first limited production run micro
processor that actually worked, there are three letters on it.
The last letter is an F. Anyone know what the F stands for?
Hint, its the last name of the kid who did the mask drawings.
What's his last name?
Morris Dovey
| ps - Anyone remember Stuart Brandt's (Whole Earth Catalog)
| bulletin board The Well? Or the IMSAI? 8080, 8080A or 6502
| ring any bells?
Still have my IMSAI (but sold off my ASR-38 long ago; but still have
my paper tape splicer).
:-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
Doug Miller
us have been doing serious woodworking, and posting here, for a long time, and
leave it at that.
Markem
wrote:
> ps - Anyone remember Stuart Brandt's (Whole Earth Catalog)
> bulletin board The Well? Or the IMSAI? 8080, 8080A or 6502
> ring any bells? On the first limited production run micro
> processor that actually worked, there are three letters on it.
> The last letter is an F. Anyone know what the F stands for?
The BB nope, The Well nope, however 8080 ect. yep I have the paralell
scars to prove it to. The last question have no idea, I just fixed
Gandalfs stuff.
Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618
Larry Blanchard
> ps - Anyone remember Stuart Brandt's (Whole Earth Catalog)
> bulletin board The Well?
Yes.
> Or the IMSAI?
Yes
> 8080, 8080A or 6502 ring any bells?
Yes, but why did you leave out the 4004? I remember the ACM meeting where
Adm. Grace Hopper showed a picture of the chip layout. The first computer
for under $1000, IIR what she said. Of course, you had to buy 10,000 or so
to get that price :-).
> On the first limited production run micro
> processor that actually worked, there are three letters on it.
> The last letter is an F. Anyone know what the F stands for?
> Hint, its the last name of the kid who did the mask drawings.
> What's his last name?
There my memory fails me. But do you remember a minicomputer named Sue?
Doug Miller
>
>There my memory fails me. But do you remember a minicomputer named Sue?
No, but I remember a boy named Sue...
fredf...@spamcop.net
charlie b wrote:
> fredf...@spamcop.net wrote:
> >
> > http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip030411sn.html
> >
> > After aligning the blade parallel to the miter slot the
> > same or a similar tool can be used to align the fence
> > to the miter slot, right?
> >
> > --
> >
> > FF
>
>
> Should just let this thread be - but
>
> Got ANY slop between the piece of wood you slip in the miter
> slot and the sides of the miter slot? If you do it comes
> acrossed in your measuring. If you don't then the wood
> or even UMHW (or is it UHMW - ultra heigh molecular weight)
> may/will bind in the miter slot as you slide down it to take
> your second measurment.
>
> Mr. Bennett's product (see how I got around using TS-Aligner?)
> has three bearings under the part that travels down the
> miter slot - two fixed and one moveable left/right to eliminate
> slop while avoiding binding.
Did you note the screw in the home-made device?
I think if you adjust the fence so the device doesn't quite bind
nor develop any slop as you run it along the fence then
you're golden.
--
FF
e...@ts-aligner.com
alignment technique which involves subjectively judging the feel or
sound of a scrape/rub of one surface (a screw head in this case)
against another (the blade or fence). It definitely works (for some
people). I have sold several Aligners to people who previously used
this technique and later let me know that they had their saw properly
aligned all along. For each one of these, at least 10 people let me
know that the Aligner has revealed that their saw was significantly
misaligned all along. Despite hours and hours of tedius "hear the
scrape" or "feel the rub" their efforts were in vain. Some of us just
aren't any good at making these sort of subjective judgements. Both
groups are very happy with their purchase because the Aligner does a
lot more than just blade and fence alignment.
If you just want blade and fence alignment, and you don't feel
confident in your ability to make these subjectve judgements, then just
get a low cost dial indicator ($15 max) and attach it to a stick. You
can use it with your miter gauge. Here's an example of what I'm
talking about:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm
It may not be as nice as an Aligner but this solution is significantly
better than some commercially made jigs costing $70 or more. And it
beats the subjective methods hands down.
PS: Note to Neanders: The dial indicator really is an "old tool". I
recently discovered that James Watt (credited with the invention of our
modern steam engine) is also credited with the invention of the dial
indicator - IN 1772! This pretty much pre-dates all power tools (and a
whole bunch of Neander-tools too!).
Larry Blanchard
> In article <12kpgqc...@corp.supernews.com>, lbl...@fastmail.fm wrote:
>
>>
>>There my memory fails me. But do you remember a minicomputer named Sue?
>
> No, but I remember a boy named Sue...
>
Lockheed came out with the computer shortly after the song, IIRC. The acronym
stood for "System User Engineered", a blatant example of reaching a little
too far for a catchy name :-).
As delivered, it came with a teletype. After writing a program, I first had
to punch it out on paper tape using "ghost" code (4 bits per frame), then:
Load the Fortran compiler.
Load my source tape.
Punch out the assembler code.
Load the assembler.
Load the assembler code.
Punch out the object code.
Load the link editor.
Load the object code.
Load the subroutine library tape(s),
Punch out the executable program.
Load the executable program.
All this at an effective speed of 55 baud :-).
If I avoided getting a tape jam in all of that, I then got to test my program
and do the whole thing over again if I found a bug. It did tend to make one
into a verrry careful programmer :-).
I also got very good at wrapping paper tape by the bowtie method :-).
Morris Dovey
| As delivered, it came with a teletype. After writing a program, I
| first had to punch it out on paper tape using "ghost" code (4 bits
| per frame), then:
|
| Load the Fortran compiler.
| Load my source tape.
| Punch out the assembler code.
| Load the assembler.
| Load the assembler code.
| Punch out the object code.
| Load the link editor.
| Load the object code.
| Load the subroutine library tape(s),
| Punch out the executable program.
| Load the executable program.
|
| All this at an effective speed of 55 baud :-).
That's amazing given that "high-speed" reel-to-reel paper tape readers
and very much faster paper tape punches were in common use by that
time. Even the fairly primitive (no RAM and no semiconductors)
pre-FORTRAN Bendix G-15 came equipped with both of these paper tape
devices - and even then there was a mag tape option. I'd have expected
better of Lockheed.
The overall chain of load-input/execute/output sequences is still
pretty much the same - it's just that the media and the logic have
become faster and larger.
Ken Johnsen
<todd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162392281....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> One of the things that has completely ruined other "hobby" type
> newsgroups that I've spent years on has been people trying to make a
> profit from the group. What happens is that the number of profiteers
> increases over time. The group then turns into nothing but a bunch of
> marketers and is no longer useful to anyone in the hobby. Fights erupt
> when multiple people try to market the same product or when someone
> profits off the free advice of another. Marketers then become less
> "hobbiest" and more business men.
>
> I really hope this group doesn't degrade into that because I've already
> left two hobbies behind that have gone that route. I mention this for
> everyone to consider. If there is no line drawn then ads from every
> marketer of woodworking products will flood this group. I've watched
> it happen. What's the difference between the OP and incra, delta or
> any other manufacturer? I also think the OP was pretty bold to suggest
> that we all pull together in order to make a bulk purchase. A purchase
> that would basically send $1K+ in his direction. This is also a
> practice I've seen in the two forementioned newsgroups.
>
> I don't mind it when people who have products to sell come here to
> exchange ideas and talk about woodworking. I'd just rather see them
> limit their marketing to their own website. A hyperlink in your
> signature is a lot less intrusive and would be less likely to offend
> people than a blatant advertisement.
>
> That's my .02 worth.
As a member of this group for 6 years I've rarely seen Ed mention his
product, but I have seen him many times add helpfull advice to us. I also
appreciate his giving the opportunity to purchase it at half price. I
purchased mine at full price & think it's a great product
Ken
Prometheus
wrote:
>That's amazing given that "high-speed" reel-to-reel paper tape readers
>and very much faster paper tape punches were in common use by that
>time. Even the fairly primitive (no RAM and no semiconductors)
>pre-FORTRAN Bendix G-15 came equipped with both of these paper tape
>devices - and even then there was a mag tape option. I'd have expected
>better of Lockheed.
I suspect it's a training issue- we've still got programs on magnetic
cassette tapes at work. My machines use 3.25" floppies (still old,
IMO- I'd like to see them all networked), but all the breaks have the
old FANUC cassette readers.
They could change them, sure- but that would require more than just
retooling. It would also require retraining the operators to use a
new interface and storage medium as well. Judging by the general lack
of computer skills that is still fairly common even today, that could
add up to a lot of downtime and botched parts. The guy on first shift
has been running one my machines for seven years, and he *still*
doesn't know that he can reorder the list of programs in the office to
put them in ascending order, and wastes a lot of time scrolling
through huge lists of part numbers to find what he needs.
Heck, there was even a paper tape reader on a machining center in the
place I worked at in 2003. Nobody knew how to use it anymore, so we'd
program it via the controller, but it was there.
Then again, I don't know that much about Lockheed- it could be that
you're right, and they are generally more on the ball than that.
Larry Blanchard
> | All this at an effective speed of 55 baud :-).
>
> That's amazing given that "high-speed" reel-to-reel paper tape readers
> and very much faster paper tape punches were in common use by that
> time. Even the fairly primitive (no RAM and no semiconductors)
> pre-FORTRAN Bendix G-15 came equipped with both of these paper tape
> devices - and even then there was a mag tape option. I'd have expected
> better of Lockheed.
>
Oh, I'm sure there were better interface devices available. But this was a
bare bones operation. The computer was dedicated to driving a large Xynetics
flatbed plotter, and there were only a few programs that needed to be
written.
I cannot seem to remember how we eventually input the plot data, but the
operation folded after a few months so perhaps it never got that far.
There were some very odd devices that appeared and disappeared during the
first few decades of computers. One I remember was a "positioning head
drum", a large vertically mounted drum with up to four sets of heads, each on
it's own moving bar. The reason it sticks in my mind was that a separate
computer could be hooked up to each of the head sets. I went so far as to
design a timesharing system based around it, and ran some promising
simulations, but could never convince my bosses to budget for it.
Backwards Communications
wrote:
>In article <1162564027.7...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "todd...@yahoo.com" <todd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I never made a
>>veiled threat to anyone.
>
>Sure looked to me like a veiled threat. And to other people.
>
>Fourteen.
>
>> I don't live south of the mason dixon anymore.
>
>Oddly enough, the NNTP headers of this message show that it was posted through
>'lds.al.charter.com'. That wouldn't happen to be located in... Alabama...
>would it?
>
>Fifteen.
eBay seller - user ID todd1814 - location Birmingham, AL
e...@ts-aligner.com
This is just a promised reminder: Only 21 days left! A few have taken
advantage of this offer. One has even put up several on Ebay:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZtamprocom
I only do this once per year, and only for the members of
rec.woodworking. You will never see a better price on brand new
Aligners. Here's the link:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/recwworderform.htm
Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
=============================
To show my appreciation to the wreck for all your help and support I
thought I would do something completely different this year.
How about a HALF PRICE sale!
Well, there are some strings attached...
First, I'm only offering one particular configuration of TS-Aligner Jr.
at half price (top teir dealer pricing). It's not a stripped down
model but it's also not a premium version. You get the complete
TS-Aligner Jr. with the Storage Case and the DVD but only one choice of
dial indicator: the standard MHC brand:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/optional-indicators.htm#Standard
No other parts or accessories or configurations are included in this
offer. The units will be brand new with the standard warranty and
everything.
Second, you have to buy a whole case of Jr's at once (16 units) - all
shipped to a single address. So, the offer isn't such a great deal for
someone who doesn't belong to a group or doesn't have any friends.
But, this is rec.woodworking. If you are reading this message then you
are already part of a really big group! All you guys have to do is
decide which of you is trustworthy enough to organize the purchase and
distribute the Aligners when they come in.
Third, the offer has a specific and limited duration. It will start on
November 1, 2006 and end on December 31, 2006.
Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. If you think
the group would benefit from the answer please feel free to post your
question/comment here. It would also make sense to use this thread to
organize your purchase(s).
Thanks,
Ed Bennett
e...@ts-aligner.com
http://www.ts-aligner.com
Home of the TS-Aligner
e...@ts-aligner.com
This is just a promised reminder: Only 5 days left! A few have taken
advantage of this offer. One has even been putting his up for sale on
Ebay:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=ts-aligner
These are his last six units so if you want to get a Jr. at a really
good price (several have sold for as little as $105!) this is your
chance to do it.
I only offer a special once per year, and only for the members of
rec.woodworking. You will never see a better price on brand new
Aligners. Here's the link with all the details: