Designing a work table

[Bill]

I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.

I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
"pitiful" technique).

By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
current design, all assembly is done with nails.

I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.

Cheers!
Bill

[Puckdropper at dot]

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:

Make it a little wider, say 26-28". That way, if you build a piece
2'x4' it will fit on the table easily. I'm going to have to extend the
top of my workbench a bit for that exact reason... The width was good,
but the length was exactly 48".

You may want to consider making the bottom support a shelf or cabinet.
Not only will it add some rigidity, but you'll gain some storage space.

Instead of putting the supports inside the legs, consider making the base
a little smaller than the top. That way, you'll have clamping space
around the entire top (near the edges) and you'll get the knee space you
desire. At 37" tall, you'll want to stand to use the bench, so it's
probably more important to make room for your feet.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[Puckdropper at dot]

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:

>

I noticed distinct similarities between your proposed design and my
mostly finished reality. I plan turning the bottom of the bench into a
cabinet to try to keep some of the dust off my less-used tools. The big
thing on top isn't part of the bench, it's a project. ;-)

http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/other/bench.jpg

A couple things to note:
1) The bench top is designed to allow for clamping. It's at least two
inches larger than the base for that reason.
2) The drawer height is designed to allow an item to remain clamped to
the top while the drawer is opened.
3) The drawers open from either end (convenient!)
4) The legs are just 1x material. They are two pieces joined at a right
angle, which allowed installation of the shelf and drawer box.

[G.W. Ross]

I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than
on top. Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.

--
G.W. Ross

I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
much better now.

[dadiOH]

Bill wrote:
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening
> (a table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is
> not suitable for those things. I started-out with a design
> incorporating M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).

It's a work table. You need 4x4 legs like a hole in the head but hey, it's
your table, use 'em if you want 'em. Nail/screw 2x4s to them all the way
around at the top, ditto at bottom if you feel the need for stretchers.
Fasten on top. Done. If you do use 4x4 legs, I'd cut out 1/2 so 2x4s sit
flush to them.
--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Limp Arbor]

> much better now.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A lot of good suggestions that I'll agree with
1 top cross pieces on sides of legs
2 notch legs to inset stretchers
3 top should overhang on all 4 sides
4 use screws or bolts - nails back out easier

Another thing you you might want to consider is two feet. I connected
the legs of my bench at the bottom with a foot. Helps prevent
racking. Makes it easier to level. Makes it easier to move. You msy
not plan on it now but at some point you'll put something in that vise
to bend or beat on and you want the bench stable.
http://www.swigerwoodworks.com/images/Workbench_011.jpg
(not mine)

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[G.W. Ross]

I built both of mine similar but no overhang in back--I screwed the
back legs to the wall.
No racking or shaking.

[Lee Michaels]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com...

I always recommend a shelf a few inches under the top. This creates a space
where you can put tools that can be easily accessed when working. And gets
them out of the way when you don't need them. I have that on my primary
shop bench and it has been a super time saver and organizer. Then put one
or two more shelves under there. You can never have too many shelves or
storage space in a shop.

Make the bench sturdy. One way to do this is to simply make it heavier.
Use heavier materials and stack stuff on the shelves. The heavier it is,
the more stable of a work surface that you will have. Particularly
important if mounting a vise on the bench.

Wimpy, light weight benches are mostly useless. Be a man! Be macho! Don't
build a pussy bench! And if you want to make it a bit stronger, use some
construction adhesive where possible. Nails are OK. I would personally use
screws. I built a lot of things with glue and screws. Some of those things
are still going strong after 30 years.

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 04 May 2012 04:28:46 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
>table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
>suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
>M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.

Hey, that would have been good practice. For S&G, I used a dovetail
in my flat panel rack which is made out of the finest tubaeight SPF.
http://tinyurl.com/84x69kn

>I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

>I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.

Joint and glue the sticks together, or tack/glue a piece of hardboard
on top. Flat tops with no holes/slats are nice to have in the shop.

>One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
>end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
>side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
>"pitiful" technique).

Countersunk lag bolts, of course.

>By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
>the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure

The added benefit is that your shelf will not sag with 4 supported
edges. Consider lagging angle iron to the legs and mounting that to
the cement with screws. You want to be able to do real WORK in the
vise on this bench, right? And with that in mind, add some diagonal
1x4s from bottom of back leg to top of front leg, and one across the
back legs. This will take out any instability when you're bending
metal, planing, or workin' heavy in the vise.

>whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
>current design, all assembly is done with nails.

Egad! Silly heathen. Countersunk lag bolts and washers are much more
sturdy, and they're removable for easy replacement if necessary.

>I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.

Rag a coat or two of your favorite finish on it before you start work.
It keeps the bench looking newer longer.

--
Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right
to be wrong, because then you will lose the ability to
learn new things and move forward with your life.
-- Dr. David M. Burns

[Swingman]

On 5/4/2012 3:28 AM, Bill wrote:
>
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating M&T
> joinery, and then I got more realistic.

> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.

I like it!

And, except for the top on mine (which is interchangeable) it's very
similar in design to the one I've been using for the past ten years or so:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

As Lee rightfully stated about making it heavy, simply do what I did:

Double up on the four legs, AND mimic the bottom aprons/stretchers on
the top ... this will add the mass you need for vise work (also making
the inner legs a bit shorter makes it easy to shim to keep it from
rocking on an uneven surface), and the added structure at the top gives
it extra mass, rigidity, and allow more flexibility for changing the top
in the future.

Besides that, the design is flexible enough to allow for evolution in
use. Mine has evolved over the years to this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011#5625196966540508658

And I would use screws, not nails, for your "joinery". :)

Good use of Sketchup also, Bill!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

[chaniarts]

if you put in a shelf, you can forgo the front brace. if you put in two
shelves (brace the bottom of the legs with 2x4s on edge, and use the top
of them for another shelf, make the middle shelf be only 1/2 the depth.
that lets you put tall things in front, gives you 1.5x the shelf space,
and you can get your knees under it easier.

[chaniarts]

oh, and mount double gang electrical boxes at each end on the top inside
of the legs. this gets cords off the surface of the bench.

[Bill]

Don't worry, this is just a small bench to help me build my main bench!
Though I think it will end up being quite useful in it's own right.
However with all of the fine suggestions I've received, it's picking up
a lot of weight and structural integrity!

[Joe >]

Subject: Re: Designing a work table

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:
>

> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

Make it a little wider, say 26-28". That way, if you build a piece
2'x4' it will fit on the table easily. I'm going to have to extend the
top of my workbench a bit for that exact reason... The width was good,
but the length was exactly 48".
You may want to consider making the bottom support a shelf or cabinet.
Not only will it add some rigidity, but you'll gain some storage space.

Instead of putting the supports inside the legs, consider making the base
a little smaller than the top. That way, you'll have clamping space
around the entire top (near the edges) and you'll get the knee space you
desire. At 37" tall, you'll want to stand to use the bench, so it's
probably more important to make room for your feet.
Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

From: Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
References: <jo040...@news6.newsguy.com>

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:
>

> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

I noticed distinct similarities between your proposed design and my
mostly finished reality. I plan turning the bottom of the bench into a
cabinet to try to keep some of the dust off my less-used tools. The big
thing on top isn't part of the bench, it's a project. ;-)
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/other/bench.jpg
A couple things to note:
1) The bench top is designed to allow for clamping. It's at least two
inches larger than the base for that reason.
2) The drawer height is designed to allow an item to remain clamped to
the top while the drawer is opened.
3) The drawers open from either end (convenient!)
4) The legs are just 1x material. They are two pieces joined at a right
angle, which allowed installation of the shelf and drawer box.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

From: "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net>
------------

I always recommend a shelf a few inches under the top. This creates a space
where you can put tools that can be easily accessed when working. And gets
them out of the way when you don't need them. I have that on my primary
shop bench and it has been a super time saver and organizer. Then put one
or two more shelves under there. You can never have too many shelves or
storage space in a shop.
Make the bench sturdy. One way to do this is to simply make it heavier.
Use heavier materials and stack stuff on the shelves. The heavier it is,
the more stable of a work surface that you will have. Particularly
important if mounting a vise on the bench.
Wimpy, light weight benches are mostly useless. Be a man! Be macho! Don't

build a pussy bench! And if you want to make it a bit stronger, use some
construction adhesive where possible. Nails are OK. I would personally use
screws. I built a lot of things with glue and screws. Some of those things
are still going strong after 30 years.

From: Limp Arbor <limp_...@hotmail.com>

NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 12:37:42 +0000 (UTC)

On May 4, 6:47=A0am, "G.W. Ross" <gw...@comwest.net> wrote:
>
> I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than

> on top. =A0Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.

>
> --
> G.W. Ross
>
> I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
> much better now.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
A lot of good suggestions that I'll agree with
1 top cross pieces on sides of legs
2 notch legs to inset stretchers
3 top should overhang on all 4 sides
4 use screws or bolts - nails back out easier
Another thing you you might want to consider is two feet. I connected
the legs of my bench at the bottom with a foot. Helps prevent
racking. Makes it easier to level. Makes it easier to move. You msy
not plan on it now but at some point you'll put something in that vise
to bend or beat on and you want the bench stable.
http://www.swigerwoodworks.com/images/Workbench_011.jpg
(not mine)

-----------------------------
From: "G.W. Ross" <gw...@comwest.net>.iad)

Limp Arbor wrote:
> On May 4, 6:47 am, "G.W. Ross"<gw...@comwest.net> wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>

>> > I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
>> > table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
>> > suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
>> > M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>>
>> > I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
>> >http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> > I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
>> > One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
>> > end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
>> > side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
>> > "pitiful" technique).
>>
>> > By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
>> > the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
>> > whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
>> > current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>>
>> > I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>>
>> > Cheers!
>> > Bill
>>

From: "G.W. Ross" <gw...@comwest.net>

Bill wrote:
>
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than
on top. Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.
--
G.W. Ross
I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
much better now.

Path: news.usenetserver.com!s05-b06.iad!cyclone02.iad!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!news2.euro.net!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!mx04.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "dadiOH" <dad...@invalid.com>

Make it a little wider, say 26-28". That way, if you build a piece
2'x4' it will fit on the table easily. I'm going to have to extend the
top of my workbench a bit for that exact reason... The width was good,
but the length was exactly 48".
You may want to consider making the bottom support a shelf or cabinet.
Not only will it add some rigidity, but you'll gain some storage space.

Instead of putting the supports inside the legs, consider making the base
a little smaller than the top. That way, you'll have clamping space
around the entire top (near the edges) and you'll get the knee space you
desire. At 37" tall, you'll want to stand to use the bench, so it's
probably more important to make room for your feet.
Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

From: Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
References: <jo040...@news6.newsguy.com>

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:
>

> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

I noticed distinct similarities between your proposed design and my
mostly finished reality. I plan turning the bottom of the bench into a
cabinet to try to keep some of the dust off my less-used tools. The big
thing on top isn't part of the bench, it's a project. ;-)
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/other/bench.jpg
A couple things to note:
1) The bench top is designed to allow for clamping. It's at least two
inches larger than the base for that reason.
2) The drawer height is designed to allow an item to remain clamped to
the top while the drawer is opened.
3) The drawers open from either end (convenient!)
4) The legs are just 1x material. They are two pieces joined at a right
angle, which allowed installation of the shelf and drawer box.
Puckdropper
--

From: "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net>

I always recommend a shelf a few inches under the top. This creates a space
where you can put tools that can be easily accessed when working. And gets
them out of the way when you don't need them. I have that on my primary
shop bench and it has been a super time saver and organizer. Then put one
or two more shelves under there. You can never have too many shelves or
storage space in a shop.
Make the bench sturdy. One way to do this is to simply make it heavier.
Use heavier materials and stack stuff on the shelves. The heavier it is,
the more stable of a work surface that you will have. Particularly
important if mounting a vise on the bench.
Wimpy, light weight benches are mostly useless. Be a man! Be macho! Don't

build a pussy bench! And if you want to make it a bit stronger, use some
construction adhesive where possible. Nails are OK. I would personally use
screws. I built a lot of things with glue and screws. Some of those things
are still going strong after 30 years.

From: Limp Arbor <limp_...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: Re: Designing a work table
>
> > I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a

> > table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). =A0My "Work-Mate" is not
> > suitable for those things. =A0I started-out with a design incorporating

> > M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> > I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> >http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>

> > I plan to =A0use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.

> > One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> > end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> > side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> > "pitiful" technique).
>
> > By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> > the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> > whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> > current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> > I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> > Cheers!
> > Bill
>

> I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than

> on top. =A0Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.

>
> --
> G.W. Ross
>
> I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
> much better now.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
A lot of good suggestions that I'll agree with
1 top cross pieces on sides of legs
2 notch legs to inset stretchers
3 top should overhang on all 4 sides
4 use screws or bolts - nails back out easier
Another thing you you might want to consider is two feet. I connected
the legs of my bench at the bottom with a foot. Helps prevent
racking. Makes it easier to level. Makes it easier to move. You msy
not plan on it now but at some point you'll put something in that vise
to bend or beat on and you want the bench stable.
http://www.swigerwoodworks.com/images/Workbench_011.jpg
(not mine)

-

Limp Arbor wrote:
> On May 4, 6:47 am, "G.W. Ross"<gw...@comwest.net> wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>

>> > I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
>> > table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
>> > suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
>> > M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>>
>> > I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
>> >http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> > I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
>> > One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
>> > end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
>> > side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
>> > "pitiful" technique).
>>
>> > By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
>> > the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
>> > whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
>> > current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>>
>> > I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>>
>> > Cheers!
>> > Bill
>>

Bill wrote:
>
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than
on top. Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.
--
G.W. Ross
I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
much better now.
>>>>>

Bill wrote:
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening
> (a table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is
> not suitable for those things. I started-out with a design
> incorporating M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).

It's a work table. You need 4x4 legs like a hole in the head but hey, it's
your table, use 'em if you want 'em. Nail/screw 2x4s to them all the way
around at the top, ditto at bottom if you feel the need for stretchers.
Fasten on top. Done. If you do use 4x4 legs, I'd cut out 1/2 so 2x4s sit
flush to them.

-------------------
I'm in the process of doing the same thing.

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Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: Re: Designing a work table
From: Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
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Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:
>

> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

Make it a little wider, say 26-28". That way, if you build a piece
2'x4' it will fit on the table easily. I'm going to have to extend the
top of my workbench a bit for that exact reason... The width was good,
but the length was exactly 48".
You may want to consider making the bottom support a shelf or cabinet.
Not only will it add some rigidity, but you'll gain some storage space.

Instead of putting the supports inside the legs, consider making the base
a little smaller than the top. That way, you'll have clamping space
around the entire top (near the edges) and you'll get the knee space you
desire. At 37" tall, you'll want to stand to use the bench, so it's
probably more important to make room for your feet.
Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

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Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: Re: Designing a work table
From: Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com>
References: <jo040...@news6.newsguy.com>
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Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com:
>

> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

I noticed distinct similarities between your proposed design and my
mostly finished reality. I plan turning the bottom of the bench into a
cabinet to try to keep some of the dust off my less-used tools. The big
thing on top isn't part of the bench, it's a project. ;-)
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/other/bench.jpg
A couple things to note:
1) The bench top is designed to allow for clamping. It's at least two
inches larger than the base for that reason.
2) The drawer height is designed to allow an item to remain clamped to
the top while the drawer is opened.
3) The drawers open from either end (convenient!)
4) The legs are just 1x material. They are two pieces joined at a right
angle, which allowed installation of the shelf and drawer box.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

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From: "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net>
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References: <jo040...@news6.newsguy.com>
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Subject: Re: Designing a work table
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build a pussy bench! And if you want to make it a bit stronger, use some
construction adhesive where possible. Nails are OK. I would personally use
screws. I built a lot of things with glue and screws. Some of those things
are still going strong after 30 years.

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Subject: Re: Designing a work table
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On May 4, 6:47=A0am, "G.W. Ross" <gw...@comwest.net> wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>

> > I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a

> > table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). =A0My "Work-Mate" is not
> > suitable for those things. =A0I started-out with a design incorporating

> > M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> > I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> >http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>

> > I plan to =A0use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.

> > One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> > end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> > side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> > "pitiful" technique).
>
> > By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> > the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> > whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> > current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> > I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> > Cheers!
> > Bill
>

> I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than

> on top. =A0Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.

>
> --
> G.W. Ross
>
> I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
> much better now.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
A lot of good suggestions that I'll agree with
1 top cross pieces on sides of legs
2 notch legs to inset stretchers
3 top should overhang on all 4 sides
4 use screws or bolts - nails back out easier
Another thing you you might want to consider is two feet. I connected
the legs of my bench at the bottom with a foot. Helps prevent
racking. Makes it easier to level. Makes it easier to move. You msy
not plan on it now but at some point you'll put something in that vise
to bend or beat on and you want the bench stable.
http://www.swigerwoodworks.com/images/Workbench_011.jpg
(not mine)

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Subject: Re: Designing a work table
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Limp Arbor wrote:
> On May 4, 6:47 am, "G.W. Ross"<gw...@comwest.net> wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>

>> > I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
>> > table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
>> > suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
>> > M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>>
>> > I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
>> >http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> > I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
>> > One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
>> > end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
>> > side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
>> > "pitiful" technique).
>>
>> > By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
>> > the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
>> > whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
>> > current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>>
>> > I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>>
>> > Cheers!
>> > Bill
>>

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Bill wrote:
>
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is not
> suitable for those things. I started-out with a design incorporating
> M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).
>
> By the way, it may look a little unorthodox, but I put the strechers on
> the inside to buy myself a little leg room. I'm not actually sure
> whether the 3 1/2 inches will really make much difference. Also, in my
> current design, all assembly is done with nails.
>
> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

I would put the upper cross pieces on the side of the legs rather than
on top. Nailing into the end grain of the legs will not hold as well.
--
G.W. Ross
I used to be sane, but I'm feeling
much better now.

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Subject: Re: Designing a work table
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Bill wrote:
> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening
> (a table to to "boot from" in computer parlance). My "Work-Mate" is
> not suitable for those things. I started-out with a design
> incorporating M&T joinery, and then I got more realistic.
>
> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> I plan to use SYP for the top--in fact, that was my starting point.
> One thing I'm still not decided on is how to attach the 2by4's on each
> end to the 4by4 legs. Nailing an extra piece of 2by4 to left and right
> side of each joint, like a bandaid, would probably work (but is surely
> "pitiful" technique).

It's a work table. You need 4x4 legs like a hole in the head but hey, it's
your table, use 'em if you want 'em. Nail/screw 2x4s to them all the way
around at the top, ditto at bottom if you feel the need for stretchers.
Fasten on top. Done. If you do use 4x4 legs, I'd cut out 1/2 so 2x4s sit
flush to them.

-------------------------
Bill-

I'm in the process of doing the same thing.

I'm using a plan from http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/206/heavy-duty-workbench.pdf
with slight modifications. Mine will be wall mounted, a couple
of inches higher, have two shelves, and go all the way to the floor to
keep out dust and critters. There's also a video available. Panels on the
sides provide stability. See the picture in the a.b.pictures.woodworking
group.

A fancier version using the same design but out of maple and with
drawers is in Woodsmith - 133 - Feb 2001 - Heavy Duty Workbench.

Your plan looks top-heavy and like it might stand a good chance of racking,
especially after mounting a vise. I think stretchers like are shown on the plan
would work better. If it's wall mounted, that may solve it, depending on how
you mount it. See also the picture of how Woodsmith mounts a machinist's
vise to the same table.
-J

[Bill]

Bill wrote:
<snip>

> I just finished a design I put on my web site to share:
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

> I'd welcome any comments anyone would care to provide.
>
> Cheers!
> Bill

Thank You to everyone for your thoughtful suggestions!
I'll think about them for a bit and post a new drawing
in a few days, if I can wait that long!

Bill

[Artemus]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:jo040...@news6.newsguy.com...
>

Consider using a solid core door for the top. If you have an
architectural salvage place, or a HFH ReStore, nearby they can
be quite inexpensive. They are also usually dead flat and strong
enough to not need stretchers. I got one decades ago that was
from a hospital x-ray facility. It's lead lined and HEAVY.
Art

[MJ]

> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg

I like this bench design. Where did you get the basic plan?

MJ

[Bill]

Joe <Joe@Joe'sPlace.com wrote:
> I'm in the process of doing the same thing.
>

> I'm using a plan fromhttp://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/206/heavy-duty-workbench.pdf

> with slight modifications. Mine will be wall mounted, a couple
> of inches higher, have two shelves, and go all the way to the floor to
> keep out dust and critters. There's also a video available. Panels on the
> sides provide stability. See the picture in the a.b.pictures.woodworking
> group.
>
> A fancier version using the same design but out of maple and with
> drawers is in Woodsmith - 133 - Feb 2001 - Heavy Duty Workbench.
>
> Your plan looks top-heavy and like it might stand a good chance of racking,
> especially after mounting a vise. I think stretchers like are shown on the plan
> would work better. If it's wall mounted, that may solve it, depending on how
> you mount it. See also the picture of how Woodsmith mounts a machinist's
> vise to the same table.
> -J
>

I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I believe.

Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )

[Mike Marlow]

Bill wrote:

>
> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
> believe.
> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )

Don't even need the chisel Bill.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Bill]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
>> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
>> believe.
>> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
>> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )
>
> Don't even need the chisel Bill.
>

Cool. I'll try it then. When I've seen folks do it on TV,
they make a bunch of cuts with a TS (maybe it was a hand saw?) and then
use a chisel. I guess you are suggesting that, towards the end, you
can use the circular saw a little like a router!

[Lee Michaels]

"Bill" <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in message

news:jo1pl...@news4.newsguy.com...

I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm saws
and circular saws. If you make enough cuts, almost nothing is left in the
bottom of the joint. Any chisel work is just to clean it up and make it
absolutely flat. But if you do a good enough job with the cuts, almost
nothing is left to smooth out.

[Lew Hodgett]

"Lee Michaels" wrote:

> I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm
> saws and circular saws. If you make enough cuts, almost nothing is
> left in the bottom of the joint. Any chisel work is just to clean
> it up and make it absolutely flat. But if you do a good enough job
> with the cuts, almost nothing is left to smooth out.

------------------------------------
A blade with a flat top grind makes life easier.

Lew

[Dave]

On Fri, 4 May 2012 22:15:59 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"

>> I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm

>A blade with a flat top grind makes life easier.

And, a dado blade makes lap joints a breeze.

[Bill]

That wouldn't be sportsman-like! ; )

[Mike Marlow]

You can cut your half laps with cuts from two different directions. One
down through the end grain, and one cross cut.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[dadiOH]

Bill wrote:

> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
> believe.
> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )

You could. It would be a lot easier with a bandsaw. Not hard with a table
or radial saw either...just make a number of crosscuts to the proper depth,
pop out the excess, clean up with chisel and/or rasp. Do it the same way
with a circular saw. You could even use a chain saw. Or a hand saw.

[Steve Turner]

A good sharp No. 71 (or 71-1/2) Stanley router plane is a great tool for
cleaning up the irregularities left by the saw blade at the bottom of a dado or
rabbet. A lot more fun and very sportsman-like. :-)

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

[Bill]

On 5/5/2012 8:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
>> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
>> believe.
>> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
>> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )
>
> You could. It would be a lot easier with a bandsaw. Not hard with a table
> or radial saw either...just make a number of crosscuts to the proper depth,
> pop out the excess, clean up with chisel and/or rasp. Do it the same way
> with a circular saw. You could even use a chain saw. Or a hand saw.
>

Good points. Not all of them apply to making the cut in the middle of a
4by4. I don't have a table saw yet. I didn't quite realize I could
count on a BS for glue-able flatness--I suppose with a 1/2" blade (which
I have).

Among other things, this table is going to be my "Scarey-Sharp"
sharpening station. I may have to practice my Scarey-Sharp technique in
the kitchen first before I complete this project! : )

Thanks!
Bill

[tiredofspam]

Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say

JUST DO IT

right?

JUST DO IT!

[Lew Hodgett]

"tiredofspam" wrote:

> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT
>
> right?
>
> JUST DO IT!

--------------------------------------
Then Bill would have to quit "window shopping" and start spending some
money.

It isn't ever going to happen.

Lew

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT
>
> right?
>
> JUST DO IT!

...Working on getting to it. Hang in there!


I... woke up this morning...
Lookin' 'round for my shoes....
Some cat stole my Nikes...
and now I got the walking blues;

They was just there yesterday..
Just sitting next to my saw..(tenny's ain't good for working ya know)
And they was still there this morning...
I may never shake these walking blues,
Cause a certain man thinks I'm boring;

(With all due apologies to Robert Johnson) : )

[Mike Marlow]

tiredofspam wrote:

> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT
>
> right?
>
> JUST DO IT!
>

Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...

Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!

Do it and learn from it!

There - I feel better now...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Bill]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>>
>> right?
>>
>> JUST DO IT!
>>
>
> Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...
>
> Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!
>
> Do it and learn from it!
>
> There - I feel better now...
>

Good, it's too late for me to write another verse! lol.

[tiredofspam]

On 5/6/2012 12:32 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>>
>> right?
>>
>> JUST DO IT!
>>
>
> Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...
>
> Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!
>
> Do it and learn from it!

Exactly. That's how you get better.

[tiredofspam]

BTW Bill, everyone makes mistakes.

What makes a good woodworker, or any craftsperson, is how they fix their
mistakes.

You learn to hide, or enhance it. Sometimes you take a different tack...
But you'll never learn until you do. And after a while it will become
second nature. You'll find yourself not thinking about it, just doing
it. Along the road you will feel very good when you complete a process
and it went well and looks well.

Making anything is just learning to work in order, and chunk it down.
Don't be overwhelmed, just chunk it down.

Learning to work efficiently is learning to work:
In order You can't build draws until the carcas is complete.
On something else while something is drying.

Just keep going, make a mistake?? Figure out how you can fix it.
If you can't start again on that module.

On 5/6/2012 12:32 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:

> Making anything is just learning to work in order, and chunk it down.
> Don't be overwhelmed, just chunk it down.
>
> Learning to work efficiently is learning to work:
> In order You can't build draws until the carcas is complete.
> On something else while something is drying.

Yes, I have been somewhat surprised to find myself using the same
principles in my woodworking-related projects that I would use in
non-woodworking work. Especially Lists!

And I'm still struggling with the idea that I don't have to save all of
my documentation! : )

I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.

The AC broke today (only blows room temperature air). But, I'm a little
ahead of the game this year, compared to last year when it also broke
(twice: solenoid and a pin-hole leak). I had mentioned it last year,
else I wouldn't have brought it up. I just examined the solenoid, and
it is not "split" like last year, so it's time to call a pro.

A lightning strike last week took out the furnaces of two houses accross
the street. I considered myself lucky. But I'm not sure whether a big
electrical strike to the ground could cause a refrigerant leak, like I
suspect I probably have, or not. Since I'll be paying the bill either
way it's sort of an academic question. : )

[Puckdropper at dot]

tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in
news:Su2dnX8Hp_qADjvS...@ptd.net:

*snip*

>
> You learn to hide, or enhance it. Sometimes you take a different tack...
> But you'll never learn until you do. And after a while it will become
> second nature. You'll find yourself not thinking about it, just doing
> it. Along the road you will feel very good when you complete a process
> and it went well and looks well.
>

*snip*

Sometimes the best place to hide a mistake is in plain sight. Just leave
it there and don't advertise it.

[Bill]

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT

One thing I try to impress upon my students is

Design, Design, Design!

Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:

Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)

I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
is behind the words) enough".

I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.

Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.

I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww project,
yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve practicing
the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...

Cheers, with a capital D,
Bill

[Puckdropper at dot]

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo7rt...@news6.newsguy.com:

A driver has to deliver packages to points A, B, C, D, E and F. The
route can use any legal street. Calculate the best route. Design 1:
Find the best route between all roads. Design 2: Just do it. Design 3:
Avoid the worst, don't worry about minor inefficiencies.

Results
-------
Design 1: Starts extremly slowly, but extremely efficient when done...
Except locations C and D have moved, E went out of business and A has
sued for failure to comply with the delivery contract.

Design 2: Starts immediately, but is usually rather inefficient. The 20
mile round trip takes 200 miles and two tanks of gas while the driver
attempts to go through a construction zone traffic jam.

Design 3: Starts reasonably quickly, but is usually good enough. The 20
mile round trip takes 25 miles, avoids the traffic jam and the driver is
home in time to watch Roy, Tommy Mac and the guy with the moustache on
Woodsmith Shop.


If you look at your projects as a series of goals, and divide them into
major and minor goals then address the major ones in the design and get
as many of the minor ones in as possible you'll most likely get a good
result. Strive for perfection, but recognize when "good enough" has been
attained and stop there.

[Bill]

> On 5/4/2012 3:28 AM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> I need to build a table to mount a machinist vise and for sharpening (a
>> table to to "boot from" in computer parlance).

Swingman replied:

> And, except for the top on mine (which is interchangeable) it's very
> similar in design to the one I've been using for the past ten years or so:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Bench.jpg
>
> As Lee rightfully stated about making it heavy, simply do what I did:
>
> Double up on the four legs, AND mimic the bottom aprons/stretchers on
> the top ... this will add the mass you need for vise work (also making
> the inner legs a bit shorter makes it easy to shim to keep it from
> rocking on an uneven surface), and the added structure at the top gives
> it extra mass, rigidity, and allow more flexibility for changing the top
> in the future.

It took me a few more hours of screwing around (I mean "designing") to
realize that you got that apron/stretcher part "just right"--and you got
a perfect place for a shelf/table as a bonus.

My new diagram (not posted) looked like crap until I recalled the
picture you posted above, and adjusted my front and back and side
strechers to the same height(s).

I'm curious why you choice to use doubled-up 2by4s for legs instead of
4by4s? Please explain your rationale if you don't mind.

Thanks,
Bill

[dadiOH]

Bill wrote:

<snip>

> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>
> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will
> be superior to a plan?

Very. What seems like a good idea on paper is often stupid or impossible in
reality.

There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO & IME
hobbyist woodworking is not among them.

[Bill]

Led by me, my students and I solved your problem a few years ago.
All you really need is a time or distance function dist(p1, p2) between
each pairs of points p1 and p2 in {A, B, C, ..., F} and a "brute force"
search (through all of the possibilities). Once you find a route, you
need not consider a longer one, so the search list is not
insurmountable. I think the shipping companies take this many steps
further. With gas at $4/gallon, you can't afford to assume all of your
drivers are equally equipped to choose a good route. In fact, you'd
probably prefer that they be driving rather than looking at maps.

> Results
> -------
> Design 1: Starts extremly slowly, but extremely efficient when done...
> Except locations C and D have moved, E went out of business and A has
> sued for failure to comply with the delivery contract.
>
> Design 2: Starts immediately, but is usually rather inefficient. The 20
> mile round trip takes 200 miles and two tanks of gas while the driver
> attempts to go through a construction zone traffic jam.
>
> Design 3: Starts reasonably quickly, but is usually good enough. The 20
> mile round trip takes 25 miles, avoids the traffic jam and the driver is
> home in time to watch Roy, Tommy Mac and the guy with the moustache on
> Woodsmith Shop.
>
>
> If you look at your projects as a series of goals, and divide them into
> major and minor goals then address the major ones in the design and get
> as many of the minor ones in as possible you'll most likely get a good
> result.

Yes, I basically agree. "Lists" are my secret to getting things done. I
use separate lists for home, work and play.

Strive for perfection, but recognize when "good enough" has been
> attained and stop there.

It's not even easy to get "good enough" out of a lot of people. Good
luck to you with your results if you request it! I can see the stacks
of folded shirts at JC Penny's now which are folded "good enough"! : )

Cheers,
Bill

>
> Puckdropper
>

[Bill]

dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
>> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
>> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
>> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>>
>> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
>> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will
>> be superior to a plan?
>
> Very. What seems like a good idea on paper is often stupid or impossible in
> reality.

I have to yield to your experience in woodworking, which is certainly
far greater than mine. But, I'm on the 3rd version (plan) of my work
table now and i have not wasted a single board. Without this approach,
I'd still be building the 1st inferior version. I built, almost by the
seat of my pants, when I was a teenager. Now I draw more. Perhaps after
I've acquired more experience I'll draw less. At the level I'm at now,
I make stupid mistakes if I'm not careful--and having a plan helps me be
careful.



>
> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO& IME

> hobbyist woodworking is not among them.

No one said anything about strict adherence. I know people struggling
in life because they don't have and won't make a plan (seriously)...

Best to you,
Bill

>

[Bill]

dadiOH wrote:

> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO& IME

> hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>

Where does designing jigs, for instance, fit in there? That's about the
last thing I want to have to do when the planets are aligned and I have
the time to actually be running machinery. I would confess, if I ended
up in that position, that I hadn't planned well.

[Swingman]

A frugal concept, called "materials on hand". :)

That, and, as described above, to make it easier to shim the work table
on an uneven surface, which was important at the time since the original
floor of the shop, being a 1940's garage, had a pronounced crown.

There is no reason not to use 4x4's for the legs if you have them on hand.

At the time I was looking for something easy and quick to fabricate with
materials on hand, inexpensive, extremely sturdy, and highly flexible in
configuration with regard to installing different tops, drawers, etc in
the future ... it is neither traditional, nor pretty, but it is highly
functional and has provided all those elements in spades.

I've been using it daily for over ten years and would not change a thing
... although I keep thinking that one of these days I'll glue up an
extra, interchangeable top of thick maple, something a bit less wide and
more traditional for use with hand tools. (the top is currently mounted
with cleats and screws to the top aprons).

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

[J. Clarke]

In article <jo8bbp$38t$1...@dont-email.me>, dad...@invalid.com says...

>
> Bill wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> > project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> > might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> > For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
> >
> > I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> > weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will
> > be superior to a plan?
>
> Very. What seems like a good idea on paper is often stupid or impossible in
> reality.
>
> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO & IME
> hobbyist woodworking is not among them.

Depends on the project. For a first of anything sometimes it's better
to start hacking and see what develops. The result may suck but you'll
have a better understanding of the problem when you go to do a top down
design.

In the case of the "first bench", get a load of nails and 2x6s from Home
Despot and hammer something vaguely bench-like together and you'll have
killed two birds. First you'll have a work surface, however crappy, and
second after you've used it a while you'll have a better idea of what
you really want.

[Swingman]

On 5/7/2012 1:59 AM, Bill wrote:

> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it.

The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to detail;
and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.

You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was why
it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design tool
like Sketchup when it first became available.

Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
build skyscrapers.

[Bill]

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 1:59 AM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
>> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
>> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
>> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it.
>
> The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to detail;
> and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.
>
> You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was why
> it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design tool
> like Sketchup when it first became available.
>
> Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
> build skyscrapers.
>

Put me down as a believer. I'm struggling to convert the masses. I
think it's a great deal easier to become a believer AFTER you've learned
your way around SU a bit. Everytime I use SU, it shows me my technique
isn't all that good, but that's a work in progress! %-)

[Lee Michaels]

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote

>
> In the case of the "first bench", get a load of nails and 2x6s from Home
> Despot and hammer something vaguely bench-like together and you'll have
> killed two birds. First you'll have a work surface, however crappy, and
> second after you've used it a while you'll have a better idea of what
> you really want.
>

I have built a bunch of these temporary benches over the years. Some of
them are still going after thirty years. They don't die. One idea that
just spontaneously occurred was to put one outside. This becomes a work
surface that is available, when weather permits, and doesn't tie up shop
space. One bench I set up had the top warp a bit. I just took some 2 X 6's
and nailed them on the top it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. I have also
done this with plywood.

I built a wood box out of 2 X 12's and put a plywood bottom on it. When I
moved I was going to cut it up and burn it. I set it out on the patio in
back and turned it over. It became my outside work bench. I recently
screwed in some deck screws to control some warping on the side. The top is
still good and fairly level. It just keeps going and going. It has been
out there for about seven years now.

Never under estimate the usefulness of simple building materials banged
together for a certain purpose. Every thing you build does not have to be
art or furniture. Sometimes quick and dirty is all that is needed and can
provide some useful support for more complex builds. It can also happen
much more quickly than more complex builds. Saves a bunch of time.

[Swingman]

On 5/7/2012 6:05 AM, Bill wrote:
>

FWIW, here is a Sketchup model/dimensioned drawing of the frame and top
of my current work bench on Google's 3D Warehouse:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=c7f221ff13bc0b01b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0

[chaniarts]

a simple djikstra's algorithm

[Mike Marlow]

Bill wrote:

>
> I have to yield to your experience in woodworking, which is certainly
> far greater than mine. But, I'm on the 3rd version (plan) of my work
> table now and i have not wasted a single board. Without this
> approach, I'd still be building the 1st inferior version. I built,
> almost by the seat of my pants, when I was a teenager. Now I draw
> more. Perhaps after I've acquired more experience I'll draw less. At
> the level I'm at now, I make stupid mistakes if I'm not careful--and
> having a plan helps me be careful.
>

Well Bill - as one of the more consistent voices encouraging you to get out
and do it, I'll step back and say that I absolutely understand what you are
saying here. I think you raise a very valid point. I spend untold amounts
of time thinking my way through new ventures, and considering the
alternatives. Like you - when I finally get at it, I don't want any more
re-runs than are necessary. For me - I come up with ideas in my own head.
Then, I utilize tools like google to validate whether my homegrown ideas
have merit or weaknesses. That part of my process is usually reasonably
quick. If I find something that I can't resolve between my ideas and what I
see others doing, then I'll throw it out to a community like this for input.
It usually does not take me long to resolve this entire process and to get
moving on into production. So - what I'm saying is simply that I do
understand your reluctance.

All that said - for small, simple, cheap things like your table project...
there is an equally valid notion that says if you just go do it, you'll
learn from it. You'll learn those things that you are trying to get all in
a row right now. Sure... you'll make a mistake and have to re-do something.
Oh well - that's not all that bad. If you are trying to engage in something
new, and to plan it so precisely as to anticipate the ultimate in perfection
on your first go around, you're probably putting too much emphasis on the
planning part. Hell - with the best of planning, we can still find a way to
screw something up.

What most of us are trying to say when we say to just do it, is that you
simply cannot fully plan the perfect execution, and despite the best of
planning, you will have other aspects of the job (actually using the tools
for example), that fall outside of the plan. You can plan the job
perfectly, but until you master some of the mechanical skills, the plan is
just an abstraction.

The two go together, and as much as planning is a requirement, doing the
work is an equal requirement.

>
>
>>
>> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but
>> IMO& IME hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>
> No one said anything about strict adherence. I know people struggling
> in life because they don't have and won't make a plan (seriously)...
>

Sure - a very valid point. Equally so are the numbers of people who never
got out of the box because they just couldn't get past the analysis stage.
Remember - after the perfect plan, comes the ability to perfectly execute
the plan. That only comes with practice and... unfortunately - some amount
of mistakes.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Bill wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but
>> IMO& IME hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>>
>
> Where does designing jigs, for instance, fit in there? That's about
> the last thing I want to have to do when the planets are aligned and
> I have the time to actually be running machinery.

Agreed! The worst part of jigs in my opinion is the distraction they create
from the actual work process, to me. Damn! Another set up type of
requirement. I just want to get going! But - that's a tad different from
over planning on the front end.

> I would confess,
> if I ended up in that position, that I hadn't planned well.

Maybe so. Or - maybe not. I've encountered many tasks where I discovered
mid-project that I needed something I had not anticipated. That can happen
for a lot of reasons. If you consider that to be poor planning, then I fear
you will never get out of the planning stages of anything.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Swingman wrote:

>
> The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to
> detail; and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.
>

For some things - agreed. Very much so. For other things - not so much.
Some things are purely utilitarian, and detail be damned. For example - I
need a sawhorse now. I can spend all kinds of time designing and creating
the perfect sawhorse, or I can crudely knock one together to get the job
done. Who really cares if it has any usefullness beyond the next 20 hours?
I simply need to get this done. So - there is a simple case where ability
and capability, accompanied by a modicum of experience, result in perfection
in time of need. Not at all elegant. Might even end up in the burn pile at
the end. So what? Didn't need art.

> You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was
> why it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design
> tool like Sketchup when it first became available.

Inarguable when it comes to the stuff you normall deal in. Different
though, when dealing with utilitarian stuff.

>
> Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
> build skyscrapers.

Only if the skyscraper actually ever begins to be built.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Bill wrote:

>
> Put me down as a believer. I'm struggling to convert the masses.

So - the guy who has not put nail to wood is attempting to convert the
masses? Silly.

> I
> think it's a great deal easier to become a believer AFTER you've
> learned your way around SU a bit.

That's a fine belief, but how do you really expect to convince people who
actually perform the work you dream of, without all of that elaborate
planning?

> Everytime I use SU, it shows me my
> technique isn't all that good, but that's a work in progress! %-)

Wait until you discover what your hammer and your saw actually show you.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Swingman]

Perfect examples why you will never win a war, or build a skyscraper. :)

[Leon]

If it makes you feel any better I was an AutoCAD LT user and installed
Sketchup 3 times before I left it on my computer. IIRC it was the first
program to be installed on my new computer.

It does take a different way of thinking and the more you use it the
more you learn.

[Mike Marlow]

Swingman wrote:

>
> Perfect examples why you will never win a war, or build a skyscraper.
> :)

I have done the equivelent of both by knowing when to think too much and
when to act. I know you too well now Karl - and I know that you too have
figured this out. But - that is not coming through in your posts. Come
on - you've never - or you don't hack a quick fix together to get you
through something? I'm going to call bullshit on you on that one.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[dadiOH]

I don't know where it fits.

Jigs are a result of a need, either a onetime or frequent need. For one
time use, down and dirty is good enough. For others, I try to build in some
versatility. As an example, consider my ex-step father in law...

One time he visited he spied my newly made router table. He then set out to
design his. He spent five years - FIVE YEARS - doing so. Many, many plan
revisions. Highly detailed plans (he was an enginner/draughtsman).

His final revision called for it to be put together with mortise and tenon
joints. Don't ask me why, I don't know but it presented a problem for him so
he made a jig to make them. The jig he made was ONLY good for that one time
use...for the lumber sizes he was using. It would have been easy to make it
so it could be used in a more universal manner.

[Bill]

Bill asked:

>> I'm curious why you choice to use doubled-up 2by4s for legs instead of
>> 4by4s? Please explain your rationale if you don't mind.

Swingman wrote:
> FWIW, here is a Sketchup model/dimensioned drawing of the frame and top
> of my current work bench on Google's 3D Warehouse:
>
> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=c7f221ff13bc0b01b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>
>

Nice work! When I looked at the photograph you posted earlier, my mind
saw an overlapping joint at the apron. Looking again, after looking at
your drawing, I see it was an illusion. There is elegance in simplicity
too.

[Swingman]

Once again, we're not even discussing the same thing. Arguing with the
setting goals of through detailed plans and design doesn't diminish the
goals, it diminishes you.

[Swingman]

That particular design is stupid simple, but it works for me. And it
costs what, less than $50 for the bench frame and can be built in a
couple of hours? Add a top and shelf, and still less than $100.

AAMOF, I'd have two if the space were available. :)

[Mike Marlow]

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 12:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Perfect examples why you will never win a war, or build a
>>> skyscraper. :)
>>
>> I have done the equivelent of both by knowing when to think too much
>> and when to act. I know you too well now Karl - and I know that you
>> too have figured this out. But - that is not coming through in your
>> posts. Come on - you've never - or you don't hack a quick fix
>> together to get you through something? I'm going to call bullshit
>> on you on that one.
>
> Once again, we're not even discussing the same thing. Arguing with the
> setting goals of through detailed plans and design doesn't diminish
> the goals, it diminishes you.

If we are not discussing the same thing, then it is you who distracted the
conversation Karl. I was very clear in what I posted to Bill, and you took
exception to it, and threw in the zinger that I've never won battles or
built skyscrapers. That part might well be examined by you.

I never argued with the setting of goals, and for you to say that is nothing
short of bullshit. I'll take my lumps when I screw up but not when someone
twists my words.

If anyone is diminished in this it's you for not affording the intellectual
credit to the conversation as it has been played out.

So - is this just your turn in the barrel?

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Swingman]

On 5/7/2012 3:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> If we are not discussing the same thing, then it is you who distracted the
> conversation Karl. I was very clear in what I posted to Bill,

Except that you CLEARLY posted/replied to me, not Bill:

On 5/7/2012 12:20 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> >

> -- -Mike- mmarlo...@windstream.net

IOW, YOU replied to MY post to Bill with a bunch of qualifiers, and
you're going to what??:

>> I'm going to call bullshit
>>> on you on that one.

Marlow, simply go fuck yourself.

[Mike Marlow]

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 3:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> If we are not discussing the same thing, then it is you who
>> distracted the conversation Karl. I was very clear in what I posted
>> to Bill,
>
> Except that you CLEARLY posted/replied to me, not Bill:

And you sir, replied to me as I had posted a reply to Bill. So - it's good
for you and not for others?

Well, then... just what was it I said in that reply that was so bothersome
to you Karl? Or was it simply that I replied?

>
>>> I'm going to call bullshit
>>>> on you on that one.
>
> Marlow, simply go fuck yourself.

I'll stand second in line Karl, after you.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Bill]

I plan to use my proposed one to help subtly reclaim square-footage
that has been overtaken by squatters!

(I forgot who I am borrowing the last expression from, but I like it).


>

[Bill]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Put me down as a believer. I'm struggling to convert the masses.
>
> So - the guy who has not put nail to wood is attempting to convert the
> masses? Silly.

Yeah, maybe. I'm not really actively seeking potential converts anyway.
I just want to identify them, for now! ; )

[Bill]

Bill wrote:

> I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.
>
> The AC broke today (only blows room temperature air). But, I'm a little
> ahead of the game this year, compared to last year when it also broke
> (twice: solenoid and a pin-hole leak). I had mentioned it last year,
> else I wouldn't have brought it up. I just examined the solenoid, and it
> is not "split" like last year, so it's time to call a pro.


Anyway, for my $90 diagnostic inspection, the Heating & AC pro deduced
that the fan motor is froze (i.e. broken). This is the fan motor that
sits right on top of the unit, attached to the underside of the cover.

After sitting in his truck for a quite a while, he came out and said it
would be $725 more to fix it. He suggested I consider buying a new unit
instead of putting so much money into an 11 year old unit. He had no
idea how much that would cost (but eventually he said $5K-10K), but he
could have his salespeople out tomorrow.

Concerning the motor, he would not separate parts from labor, had no
idea how much the parts actually cost, and would not even wave the $90
inspection fee if I paid the $725. I'm not really faulting him for the
first two, I'm just sayin' (they must not need the work very bad).

So I told him I would try to replace the motor myself.

Maybe God is guiding me to do electrical work instead of woodworking? : )

Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!

It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going
to replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )

Bill

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 07 May 2012 23:45:38 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>
>> I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.
>>
>> The AC broke today (only blows room temperature air). But, I'm a little
>> ahead of the game this year, compared to last year when it also broke
>> (twice: solenoid and a pin-hole leak). I had mentioned it last year,
>> else I wouldn't have brought it up. I just examined the solenoid, and it
>> is not "split" like last year, so it's time to call a pro.
>
>
>Anyway, for my $90 diagnostic inspection, the Heating & AC pro deduced
>that the fan motor is froze (i.e. broken). This is the fan motor that
>sits right on top of the unit, attached to the underside of the cover.
>
>After sitting in his truck for a quite a while, he came out and said it
>would be $725 more to fix it. He suggested I consider buying a new unit
>instead of putting so much money into an 11 year old unit. He had no
>idea how much that would cost (but eventually he said $5K-10K), but he
>could have his salespeople out tomorrow.

My neighbor just had a 30 y/o fan motor replaced for $500 last month.
The guy had to dismantle the whole system to get to it, so I could
understand the $225 labor fee. The motor was $275. WE are in the
wrong business, Bill.

>Concerning the motor, he would not separate parts from labor, had no
>idea how much the parts actually cost, and would not even wave the $90
>inspection fee if I paid the $725. I'm not really faulting him for the
>first two, I'm just sayin' (they must not need the work very bad).

Would he waive it even if he didn't wave it? <titter>

>So I told him I would try to replace the motor myself.
>
>Maybe God is guiding me to do electrical work instead of woodworking? : )

Uh, right, but can we see your 623 page detailed plan on doing the
repair before you do it, please? Thanks.

>Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
>an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!
>
>It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
>So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going
>to replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )

When you get there, make sure it's not just the squirrel cage screw
which had come loose and allowed the cage to get hung, causing an
apparent motor freezeup. My new Carrier Infinity had that problem a
few months old, but it wobbled and vibrated instead of hanging. That
whole 1500s/f system was $6k installed. The house had baseboard
heaters and no fans before that. It's 96% efficient, has A/C and
everything. I love it!

--
Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power.
-- Seneca

[Bill]

>> Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
>> an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!
>>
>> It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
>> So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going
>> to replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )
>

Larry Jaques wrote:

> When you get there, make sure it's not just the squirrel cage screw
> which had come loose and allowed the cage to get hung, causing an
> apparent motor freezeup.

Naw, he batted the fan around with a piece of wood. It didn't want to
turn.

> My new Carrier Infinity had that problem a
> few months old, but it wobbled and vibrated instead of hanging. That
> whole 1500s/f system was $6k installed. The house had baseboard
> heaters and no fans before that. It's 96% efficient, has A/C and
> everything. I love it!

Nice upgrade!

[Steve]

Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote in news:jo7rt...@news6.newsguy.com:

> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>
>
> One thing I try to impress upon my students is
>
> Design, Design, Design!
>
> Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:
>
> Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)
>
> I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
> is behind the words) enough".
>
> I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
> they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
> regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
> perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.
>
> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>

> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can

> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
> interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
> defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww
project,
> yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
> cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
> replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
> one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
> can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve
practicing
> the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...
>
> Cheers, with a capital D,
> Bill
>

My CAD professor used to say "make all your mistakes with a pencil and
paper before you create it in AutoCAD".

[Bill]

Bill wrote:
>
>
>>> Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
>>> an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!
>>>
>>> It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
>>> So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going
>>> to replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )
>>
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> When you get there, make sure it's not just the squirrel cage screw
>> which had come loose and allowed the cage to get hung, causing an
>> apparent motor freezeup.
>
> Naw, he batted the fan around with a piece of wood. It didn't want to turn.

I encountered your term "squirrel cage" in my reading about heat pumps.
I don't have no squirrel cage! At least I don't have one outside.
Maybe in the house? : )

[Swingman]

On 5/7/2012 10:45 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.

Don't feel too bad. I have been forced to do more ww because of AC
repairs ... last month it was $1400+ to replace the coil in my upstairs
unit (and this was with my "$200 discount", after having paid this same
HVAC contractor over $100K in the last decade to install HVAC in new homes).

> It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
> So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going to
> replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )

Even a "builder grade" (usually a Goodman around here) compressor and
fan unit (the part that sits outside) runs around $1800 - $2000 to
replace. That's about what I've had to pay to replace those stolen off
of construction sites the last couple of times that has happened.

[CW]

"Steve" wrote in message
news:XnsA04CDA1D7E306re...@207.246.207.121...

=====================================================================
Didn't have a very good concept of CAD, did he?

[Bill]

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 10:45 PM, Bill wrote:

>> It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
>> So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going to
>> replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )
>
> Even a "builder grade" (usually a Goodman around here) compressor and
> fan unit (the part that sits outside) runs around $1800 - $2000 to
> replace. That's about what I've had to pay to replace those stolen off
> of construction sites the last couple of times that has happened.
>

I ordered the fan locally (being shipped from TX) this morning.
It was $140 + shipping.

I spent a lot of time reading on the matter last night. Carrier
practically regards specifications of their parts as proprietary!

In the end, the model# of the fan motor in the unit, which to my
surprise was not original, was the way that the supplier helped me
choose a motor (I had detailed all of the specifications from it).

If anyone reading would be interested in helping me with my checklist,
here is what it looks like, to me, that I need to do (I hope you'll
correct me if if looks like I'm confused, I mean more than usual %-)


0. Remove (quick-disconnect) fuse.

1. Remove the 4 bolts that look like they holding down a bbq-grill on
top. Let's just refer to the bbq-grill as TOP below. Do not remove, I
think, the 4 bolts holding down the 2-inch high "cover" to which the
TOP is attached.

2. Reach under the TOP and slide the rubber(?) conduit away from the motor.

3. Remove the 3 motor wires, Yellow, Brown and Black from where they are
attached to in the "electric box" area, paying close attention to where
they are attached. This will require slight modification (see #8 ).

4. Lay a 4'by4' board, or equivalent accross unit, and flip the "whole
works", TOP, fan motor, and fan upside down on top, using the board for
support.

5. Remove the fan from the rotor. Use a little penetrating oil, and
hope and pray a little bit. Anything else? Kick it? lol!

6. Remove the 4 bolts holding motor to top

7. Reverse process with new motor, however--

8. I am getting a new 6-amp capacitor with the motor, while the existing
capacitor was 7.5-amp and is part of a dual fan/compressor capacitor
unit. I have been examining a wiring diagram (not something I do
everyday).

Since it currently shared, on the capacitor, I assume Yellow is Common.
Black is clearly Hot. Since it is a 240v fan, I assume Brown is also
Hot. I could be mistaken.

I see how they are marked on a wiring digram I found for my Heat Pump/AC:

BROWN = O--|(--O = YELLOW

The notation: ---|(--- was somewhat familiar to me when I was in junior
high. O, of course, just represents a connection.

My recollection is the current wants to go from the (-- side to the --|
side above, which would make me want to infer that YELLOW is Hot and
Brown is Common.

If the top of the capacitor is marked with O--| and (--O, that should
tell me where to attach my brown and yellow wires, no matter what they
are. If the capacitor is going to be marked in some other way, PLEASE
advise!!!

9. Tighten screws. Hope. Replace fuse. Done?

10. Decide whether to put all of the $600 saved towards woodworking
tools and materials, or just part of it.


Well, that's the plan. I call this "doing it", MM!
I need to print this out! : )

Bill

[Bill]

Yes, I will expunge any energy stored in the capacitor with a
screwdriver. I have to be careful with this, as I confess I've
forgotten to do it before when visiting the "box".

[Mike Marlow]

Bill wrote:

>
> I spent a lot of time reading on the matter last night. Carrier
> practically regards specifications of their parts as proprietary!
>
> In the end, the model# of the fan motor in the unit, which to my
> surprise was not original, was the way that the supplier helped me
> choose a motor (I had detailed all of the specifications from it).
>
> If anyone reading would be interested in helping me with my checklist,
> here is what it looks like, to me, that I need to do (I hope you'll
> correct me if if looks like I'm confused, I mean more than usual %-)
>

Geeze Bill - why wouldn't you take this to an appropriate newsgroup? Or
look up a youtube video?

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Bill]

Geeze Mike, Don't be so sensitive. I don't read any other newsgroups.

[Bill]

Mike Marlow wrote:

> Geeze Bill - why wouldn't you take this to an appropriate newsgroup? Or
> look up a youtube video?
>

There was a reference to you in it, toward the end. I don't know which
newsgroups you read besides this one. ::: ducking :::

[Mike Marlow]

Maybe you should Bill. This is not an air conditioning newsgroup.


--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Huh?

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Dave]

On Tue, 8 May 2012 20:09:15 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

>> Geeze Mike, Don't be so sensitive. I don't read any other newsgroups.
>
>Maybe you should Bill. This is not an air conditioning newsgroup.

Maybe so, but the breadth of knowledge here and the wide experience of
many is usually enough to answer most any basic question, especially
when it comes to something in the home. That's one reason why I like
to hang out here. Perhaps Bill feels the same way.

[Bill]

Thank you Dave. You are absolutely right.
As Mike M. has said himself before, this group is something of a "boys
club". It's surely not just another forum, at least not to me. I
thought my previous post was a little long, but I also thought it had
the potential to be useful to someone else. I hope other folks will
feel free to post threads that have a reasonable chance to help me save
$600, and/or to help me be a better DIY'er. As Swingman has said
(paraphrased here): We can't just discuss joinery all the time.


I did find some helpful info regarding my upcoming AC fan replacement at
EHow.com. The newsgroup alt.HVAC was useless in this regard.

One question I am trying to find the answer to, which surely is in the
"beginner" category, is whether the rubber conduit that covers the 3
wires from the electrical fan comes already attached to the fan? And,
if not, then how is it attached to the motor, and should it be replaced
periodically? I think we all want to keep our high voltage wires Dry!
: ) It the conduit comes attached to the motor, than that nullifies
all of my concerns about that.

Concerning a new work table, I'm looking forward to building one very
much like the one Swingman posted a SU diagram of recently. Except mine
will be 40" tall (higher), shorter in length, and sport a machinist
vise. I have little doubt that it will live a long and useful life, like
everyone else's first bench's seem to. I have a very slight tendancy to
permit things to get complicated, but I need the bench too much to let
that happen here. I can worry about the drawers, inlay, breadboard ends,
and relief-carved ornamentation later: : )

Bill

[Bill]

Bill wrote:

> One question I am trying to find the answer to, which surely is in the
> "beginner" category, is whether the rubber conduit that covers the 3
> wires from the electrical fan comes already attached to the fan?

Obviously, I meant, already attached to the fan *Motor*, rather than the
fan.

[Bill]

Another "stupid" question that I locate an answer to.

Concerning "blade connectors". It is written (at Wikipedia):

"blade receptacle is pushed onto the blade to form a connection"


Is that it? Does nothing need to be snugged up, or crimped, or
anything? Is there a subtle "click mechanism" which makes very good
contact and insures that the male and female contacts don't come loose?

Years ago, I sometimes used pliers on them when attaching them to
speakers, for instance.

It would be nice to know the truth about this one. Where I was raised
(no, not a barn), one didn't hesitate to use pliers "just to make sure".
: )

Bill

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 08 May 2012 23:40:17 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>
>> One question I am trying to find the answer to, which surely is in the
>> "beginner" category, is whether the rubber conduit that covers the 3
>> wires from the electrical fan comes already attached to the fan?
>
>Obviously, I meant, already attached to the fan *Motor*, rather than the
>fan.

But of course.

>And, if
>> not, then how is it attached to the motor, and should it be replaced
>> periodically? I think we all want to keep our high voltage wires Dry!
>> : ) It the conduit comes attached to the motor, than that nullifies all
>> of my concerns about that.

Who left the garden hose in your furnace closet, Bill? How would
wiring get wet in there?!?

>> Concerning a new work table, I'm looking forward to building one very
>> much like the one Swingman posted a SU diagram of recently. Except mine
>> will be 40" tall (higher), shorter in length, and sport a machinist
>> vise. I have little doubt that it will live a long and useful life, like
>> everyone else's first bench's seem to. I have a very slight tendancy to
>> permit things to get complicated, but I need the bench too much to let
>> that happen here. I can worry about the drawers, inlay, breadboard ends,
>> and relief-carved ornamentation later: : )

You're laser etching and dyeing a new wire-rubber, right?

[Bill]

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 08 May 2012 23:40:17 -0400, Bill<Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> One question I am trying to find the answer to, which surely is in the
>>> "beginner" category, is whether the rubber conduit that covers the 3
>>> wires from the electrical fan comes already attached to the fan?
>>
>> Obviously, I meant, already attached to the fan *Motor*, rather than the
>> fan.
>
> But of course.
>
>
>> And, if
>>> not, then how is it attached to the motor, and should it be replaced
>>> periodically? I think we all want to keep our high voltage wires Dry!
>>> : ) It the conduit comes attached to the motor, than that nullifies all
>>> of my concerns about that.
>
> Who left the garden hose in your furnace closet, Bill? How would
> wiring get wet in there?!?

No this heat pump is outside, running 4 seasons out of the year. If it
were not for the conduit, the wires to the fan motor would be *directly*
exposed to the elements ALL of the time.

>
>
>>> Concerning a new work table, I'm looking forward to building one very
>>> much like the one Swingman posted a SU diagram of recently. Except mine
>>> will be 40" tall (higher), shorter in length, and sport a machinist
>>> vise. I have little doubt that it will live a long and useful life, like
>>> everyone else's first bench's seem to. I have a very slight tendancy to
>>> permit things to get complicated, but I need the bench too much to let
>>> that happen here. I can worry about the drawers, inlay, breadboard ends,
>>> and relief-carved ornamentation later: : )
>
> You're laser etching and dyeing a new wire-rubber, right?

That reminds me, someone recommended a similar mat to me for wood
carving. I picked up a "2-man saw" a few weeks ago at an auction as a
decor item for not too many bucks. As you may recall I still have
painting to do and lights to hang. At least, its that time of year that
I get shop time, along with my yard work of course. Damn weeds! ; )

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 09 May 2012 00:21:08 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
>Another "stupid" question that I locate an answer to.
>
>Concerning "blade connectors". It is written (at Wikipedia):
>
> "blade receptacle is pushed onto the blade to form a connection"
>
>
>Is that it? Does nothing need to be snugged up, or crimped, or
>anything? Is there a subtle "click mechanism" which makes very good
>contact and insures that the male and female contacts don't come loose?

Some provide a dimple on the male (spade lug) which snugs it to the
female (receptacle), some don't.

>Years ago, I sometimes used pliers on them when attaching them to
>speakers, for instance.

Shameful!

>It would be nice to know the truth about this one. Where I was raised
>(no, not a barn), one didn't hesitate to use pliers "just to make sure".
> : )

One doesn't. It's a spring fit.

Now, before some idiot says something else, that's my opinion.
Everything I say, or anyone says, here is their own opinion, nothing
else. Some are right out of the tech manuals, most aren't. We'll just
have to learn to live with that, huh? ;)

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 09 May 2012 01:29:35 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 May 2012 23:40:17 -0400, Bill<Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> One question I am trying to find the answer to, which surely is in the
>>>> "beginner" category, is whether the rubber conduit that covers the 3
>>>> wires from the electrical fan comes already attached to the fan?
>>>
>>> Obviously, I meant, already attached to the fan *Motor*, rather than the
>>> fan.
>>
>> But of course.
>>
>>
>>> And, if
>>>> not, then how is it attached to the motor, and should it be replaced
>>>> periodically? I think we all want to keep our high voltage wires Dry!
>>>> : ) It the conduit comes attached to the motor, than that nullifies all
>>>> of my concerns about that.
>>
>> Who left the garden hose in your furnace closet, Bill? How would
>> wiring get wet in there?!?
>
>No this heat pump is outside, running 4 seasons out of the year. If it
>were not for the conduit, the wires to the fan motor would be *directly*
>exposed to the elements ALL of the time.

Oh, THAT motor. You'd better -hope- the new fan has a watertight seal
on it.

>>>> Concerning a new work table, I'm looking forward to building one very
>>>> much like the one Swingman posted a SU diagram of recently. Except mine
>>>> will be 40" tall (higher), shorter in length, and sport a machinist
>>>> vise. I have little doubt that it will live a long and useful life, like
>>>> everyone else's first bench's seem to. I have a very slight tendancy to
>>>> permit things to get complicated, but I need the bench too much to let
>>>> that happen here. I can worry about the drawers, inlay, breadboard ends,
>>>> and relief-carved ornamentation later: : )
>>
>> You're laser etching and dyeing a new wire-rubber, right?
>
>That reminds me, someone recommended a similar mat to me for wood
>carving. I picked up a "2-man saw" a few weeks ago at an auction as a
>decor item for not too many bucks. As you may recall I still have
>painting to do and lights to hang. At least, its that time of year that
>I get shop time, along with my yard work of course. Damn weeds! ; )

I lost my cantaloupe plant and a cucumber to 90F today. I last watered
them on Sunday, but the beating sun grows weeds and kills underwatered
plants mercilessly.

If you do paint that saw, I'll hope the sun is merciless with you,
too, HEATHEN!

[Bill]

Larry Jaques wrote:

> If you do paint that saw, I'll hope the sun is merciless with you,
> too, HEATHEN!

I won't paint it..lol. I don't even know if I want to take the rust off
of it. It's got a mostly-even and smooth rust patina, 100% coverage,
and its teeth are about an inch long and sharp. I don't think its very
big as two-man saws go. But if you pick it up, you'll realize you
wouldn't want to trip with it. My wife said she didn't want it over the
fireplace, so it will have to go in my shop somewhere--of course, that
was my plan along. Trivia question that I don't know the answer to:
When did the stop making "2-mansaws"?

[Dave]

On Tue, 08 May 2012 23:30:28 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>thought my previous post was a little long, but I also thought it had
>the potential to be useful to someone else. I hope other folks will

Yeah, nothing personal, but you are a little long winded on occasion.
I can say this because I admit to being long winded on occasion too.

[John Shear]

Ok then start a new thread with OT in the subject. :)

John S.

[Markem]

On Mon, 07 May 2012 23:45:38 -0400, Bill <Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
>an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!

Last September the AC condenser motor stoppped, I replaced the motor
and starter cap myself and it cost a bit under $400. Did not have a
quote or a service check the motor temp was well above 140 degrees F
was the hint.

Mark

[Bill]

Markem wrote:
> On Mon, 07 May 2012 23:45:38 -0400, Bill<Bi...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
>> an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!
>
> Last September the AC condenser motor stoppped, I replaced the motor
> and starter cap myself and it cost a bit under $400.

You must have bought a name-branded one, or maybe a really big one.

Did not have a
> quote or a service check the motor temp was well above 140 degrees F
> was the hint.

The top of my unit looks a little like it has been "cooked" too!

>
> Mark

Mark, Since you just did this, what seals the conduit (around the wires)
to the motor, anything?

My motor is supposed to arrive tomorrow or Friday. Except for the detail
above, I think I'm ready.

Bill

[Bill]

Thank you for agreeing with me. If I find myself in the middle of a
long post that I find doesn't interest me, I move on to the next one.
Sort of like when we read newspapers.

[CW]

"Bill" wrote in message news:jod3s...@news3.newsguy.com...

==================================================================
Never. You can still buy them new.

[Mike Marlow]

Bill wrote:

>
> My motor is supposed to arrive tomorrow or Friday. Except for the
> detail above, I think I'm ready.
>

Have you looked at yours yet Bill? It is usually just a simple push in
connector. (push in and twist). The connector itself couples to the motor
with a simple nut. Is yours different?

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Bill]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> My motor is supposed to arrive tomorrow or Friday. Except for the
>> detail above, I think I'm ready.
>>
>
> Have you looked at yours yet Bill?

Yes, I've been looking at it everyday, ever more closely (seriously)!

It is usually just a simple push in
> connector. (push in and twist). The connector itself couples to the motor
> with a simple nut. Is yours different?

I think so. I'll see if I can get a pic. Thank you for your interest!

Bill

[Bill]

Mike,

I posted 4 pics illustrating the conduit and connector I've been talking
about. I think that motors came with the wires already attached. I'm
increasing thinking the conduit is hanging there.
Evidently keeping wires "dry" is not as crucial as I might have
supposed, as the heat pump is full of wires with no more protection
that their own colored skin.

Still curious about the 4th pic. Remove just the grill, right?

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Thank you,
Bill

[Bill]

Bill wrote:
>
>> I see how they are marked on a wiring digram I found for my Heat Pump/AC:
>>
>> BROWN = O--| (--O = YELLOW

I wanted to correct, I think, at least some my earlier remarks about
this symbol (for a capacitor) : ---| (---
I have a question about it too.

To the best of my understanding, so far, it a polarized capacitor,
the ---| represents the side of the capacitor which holds retains
the positive charge, and the (--- side the negative charge. This
difference in the stored charges of course represents potential energy.
Capacitance is measured in Farads.

When I see the symbol on Wikipedia, however, they show a superscripted
plus sign (+) over the left hand side. Does the symbol represent the
identical thing, with or without this + sign? I.e. does --| always
represent the side with a positive charge? I guess yes, I am just
seeking confirmation.

Thank you,
Bill