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Precision tenons?
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SonomaProducts.com
May 31, 2012, 5:22:49 PM5/31/12
to
I have been looking for the best method but my search is still not finding good info.
I use a Delta tenon jig. to get the tenon width I have a nice method of using a spacer that is the desired size of the tenon plus the saw kerf. So my cheek to cheek is precise. What I want is precise shoulders.
I first do a cross cut around the shoulders a little less deep than I will cut the cheeks. I can get that precisely where I want it using my miter guage and a stop block on the fence. Then when I cut the cheeks using the jog. I use a flat ground blade and raise the blade a little at a time in setup until I just match the earlier shoulder cut. But that is not exact. I can get it pretty good but as I said it isn't exact, it is two cuts defining the shoulder and slight shifts can make a little difference when running 20 parts, etc.
Anyone else have a bettr method?
I use a Delta tenon jig. to get the tenon width I have a nice method of using a spacer that is the desired size of the tenon plus the saw kerf. So my cheek to cheek is precise. What I want is precise shoulders.
I first do a cross cut around the shoulders a little less deep than I will cut the cheeks. I can get that precisely where I want it using my miter guage and a stop block on the fence. Then when I cut the cheeks using the jog. I use a flat ground blade and raise the blade a little at a time in setup until I just match the earlier shoulder cut. But that is not exact. I can get it pretty good but as I said it isn't exact, it is two cuts defining the shoulder and slight shifts can make a little difference when running 20 parts, etc.
Anyone else have a bettr method?
JayPique
May 31, 2012, 9:10:13 PM5/31/12
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Leon
Jun 1, 2012, 7:37:07 AM6/1/12
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routerman
Jun 1, 2012, 9:48:20 AM6/1/12
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Might be: http://patwarner.com/images/tenons.jpg
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Pat Barber
Jun 1, 2012, 2:05:19 AM6/1/12
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKNE057fCk
I have not built one yet but it is on my list of stuff to do.
SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 1:47:53 PM6/1/12
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Mike Marlow
Jun 1, 2012, 1:59:47 PM6/1/12
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SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> OK, build a good dado sled but this is not a good tenon solution. The
> thickness of the tenons are now at the mercy of the thickness of the
> stock.
Aren't they always?
> OK, build a good dado sled but this is not a good tenon solution. The
> thickness of the tenons are now at the mercy of the thickness of the
> stock.
> Even with careful stock prep I don't like relying on that
> method.
thickness of the sled base right? Adjust one time for that, and why would
it be any different from just running it through the table saw? Or are you
suggesting a completely different tenoning technique?
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 2:02:10 PM6/1/12
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SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 2:22:29 PM6/1/12
to
So if I want a 1/4" tenon and have a full 1/8" blade I can use a piece of 1/2 MDF and 1/8 masonite as a spacer and get an exact width for the tenon. I can make adjustments during setup by sanding down the spacer or adding tape to make minor adjustments.
Using this method my tenons won't necessarily be exactly centered but the will be an exact repetable width regardless of the stock thickness. The samll variance in stock thickness is enough to go from too tight to too loose quite easily.
When doing 20-30 at a time like I do, it is nice to be repeatable. Also, I often move pretty fast at stock prepe and maybe grab some pieces from an earlier run or have mill donw some more rough stock after making mistakes of finding blemishes I want to replace. So exact stock thickness is not assured.
Pat Barber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:39:46 AM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/2012 10:47 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:05:19 PM UTC-7, Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 5/31/2012 2:22 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>> I have been looking for the best method but my search is still not finding good info.
Maybe restate the problem. Tenons are made several different ways as you
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:05:19 PM UTC-7, Pat Barber wrote:
>> On 5/31/2012 2:22 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>> I have been looking for the best method but my search is still not finding good info.
well know, so what is your problem you are trying to solve again ?
I have used tenoning jigs both home made and store bought and was never
really happy with the adjustments that need to be made for a quick
operation.
I changed my methods and now use loose tenons "only" and make all
my mortises with a router.
dpb
Jun 1, 2012, 3:08:49 PM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/2012 1:22 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
...
> Using this method my tenons won't necessarily be exactly centered
> but the will be an exact repetable width regardless of the stock
> thickness. The samll variance in stock thickness is enough to go from
> too tight totoo loose quite easily.
Control the stock even if you take a little more effort there you'll
more than get it back on the other end. W/ your method the thickness of
the tenon may be ok, but your surfaces aren't going to match by that
mismachined stock thickness difference, too, any you'll have to
compensate for that.
I'd say make sure your stock _is_ of the consistent thickness is the
solution.
--
...
> Using this method my tenons won't necessarily be exactly centered
> but the will be an exact repetable width regardless of the stock
> thickness. The samll variance in stock thickness is enough to go from
>
> When doing 20-30 at a time like I do, it is nice to be repeatable.
> Also, I often move pretty fast at stock prepe and maybe grab some
> pieces from an earlier run or have mill donw some more rough stock
> after making mistakes of finding blemishes I want to replace. So
> exact stock thickness is not assured.
I think you're trying to make a fixup on the wrong end of the operation.
> When doing 20-30 at a time like I do, it is nice to be repeatable.
> Also, I often move pretty fast at stock prepe and maybe grab some
> pieces from an earlier run or have mill donw some more rough stock
> after making mistakes of finding blemishes I want to replace. So
> exact stock thickness is not assured.
Control the stock even if you take a little more effort there you'll
more than get it back on the other end. W/ your method the thickness of
the tenon may be ok, but your surfaces aren't going to match by that
mismachined stock thickness difference, too, any you'll have to
compensate for that.
I'd say make sure your stock _is_ of the consistent thickness is the
solution.
--
chaniarts
Jun 1, 2012, 3:56:21 PM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/2012 11:22 AM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 1, 2012 10:59:47 AM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>
>>> OK, build a good dado sled but this is not a good tenon solution. The
>>> thickness of the tenons are now at the mercy of the thickness of the
>>> stock.
>>
>> Aren't they always?
>>
>>> Even with careful stock prep I don't like relying on that
>>> method.
>>
>> Curious to understand why not. The only difference is the height due to the
>> thickness of the sled base right? Adjust one time for that, and why would
>> it be any different from just running it through the table saw? Or are you
>> suggesting a completely different tenoning technique?
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> mmarlo...@windstream.net
>
> I'l try to explain. I currently do the cheek cuts using a tenoning jig, holding the stick upright as it passes over the TS balde. The first pass is done with a spacer next to the stick. The spacer is the exact tenon thickness that I want, plus the width of the saw kerf. I learned about this technique from the docs that came with my Delta tennoning jig.
i'm having a bit of a problem understanding the exact problem. is the
> On Friday, June 1, 2012 10:59:47 AM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>
>>> OK, build a good dado sled but this is not a good tenon solution. The
>>> thickness of the tenons are now at the mercy of the thickness of the
>>> stock.
>>
>> Aren't they always?
>>
>>> Even with careful stock prep I don't like relying on that
>>> method.
>>
>> Curious to understand why not. The only difference is the height due to the
>> thickness of the sled base right? Adjust one time for that, and why would
>> it be any different from just running it through the table saw? Or are you
>> suggesting a completely different tenoning technique?
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> mmarlo...@windstream.net
>
> I'l try to explain. I currently do the cheek cuts using a tenoning jig, holding the stick upright as it passes over the TS balde. The first pass is done with a spacer next to the stick. The spacer is the exact tenon thickness that I want, plus the width of the saw kerf. I learned about this technique from the docs that came with my Delta tennoning jig.
problem then the length of the tenon isn't repeatable?
what if you cut the top of the cheeks with the stick horizontal? then
you could cut the waste of the rest of the anyway, and if it didn't
exactly match the depth of the top cut, it won't show anyway.
Mike Marlow
Jun 1, 2012, 3:58:30 PM6/1/12
to
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
> When doing 20-30 at a time like I do, it is nice to be repeatable.
> Also, I often move pretty fast at stock prepe and maybe grab some
> pieces from an earlier run or have mill donw some more rough stock
> after making mistakes of finding blemishes I want to replace. So
> exact stock thickness is not assured.
Thanks. Makes a lot of sense. It's hard to remember sometimes that other
>
> When doing 20-30 at a time like I do, it is nice to be repeatable.
> Also, I often move pretty fast at stock prepe and maybe grab some
> pieces from an earlier run or have mill donw some more rough stock
> after making mistakes of finding blemishes I want to replace. So
> exact stock thickness is not assured.
people have to deal with things like repeatability and production. I don't
make my tennons the way you do, so I overlooked the option of using a
tennoning jig like you do. And of course, I don't have to deal with making
the quantity that you do. I'll go sit in the corner now - your question
makes much more sense in light of how and what you are doing.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Mike Marlow
Jun 1, 2012, 4:01:27 PM6/1/12
to
production quantities to deal with, if it takes me 10 minutes to achieve
this, it's really no big deal. I try to run all of my stock through at
once, to ensure consistent dimensioning, but it never fails - mid way
through I'll find I need another piece. Not a few more pieces mind you -
just one more damned piece...
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
dpb
Jun 1, 2012, 4:41:29 PM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/2012 3:01 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...
> That is my approach, but admitedly, since I don't have the issue of
> production quantities to deal with, if it takes me 10 minutes to achieve
> this, it's really no big deal. I try to run all of my stock through at
> once, to ensure consistent dimensioning, but it never fails - mid way
> through I'll find I need another piece. Not a few more pieces mind you -
> just one more damned piece...
But if he fiddles around on the ass-end, he's just wasted the time there
that would have taken to have avoided the problem in the first place.
And unless he's satisfied with/can tolerate a mismatch in overall
thickness that's hidden on the reverse side he's got to solve it somehow
anyway.
Or, I'm not getting the picture at all; that happens, too. :)
--
...
> That is my approach, but admitedly, since I don't have the issue of
> production quantities to deal with, if it takes me 10 minutes to achieve
> this, it's really no big deal. I try to run all of my stock through at
> once, to ensure consistent dimensioning, but it never fails - mid way
> through I'll find I need another piece. Not a few more pieces mind you -
> just one more damned piece...
that would have taken to have avoided the problem in the first place.
And unless he's satisfied with/can tolerate a mismatch in overall
thickness that's hidden on the reverse side he's got to solve it somehow
anyway.
Or, I'm not getting the picture at all; that happens, too. :)
--
SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 4:42:40 PM6/1/12
to chan...@nospam.yahoo.com
This isn't a huge issue, I am just looking to see if I can imrove my workflow for a bullet proof method.
SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 4:47:28 PM6/1/12
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SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 4:49:11 PM6/1/12
to
SonomaProducts.com
Jun 1, 2012, 4:45:55 PM6/1/12
to
Tom
Jun 1, 2012, 6:02:38 PM6/1/12
to
I go at it the other way. I make my shoulder cuts first, a tiny bit
deeper than they "should" be. I then cut the cheeks to size for
thickness, but a tad (~1/16) less deep than the shoulder, allowing the
kerf from the shoulder cut to finish the cheekcut-off. This leaves a
1/8 wide band around the bottom of the cheek that is a tad thinner
than the rest of the cheeks, but it's hidden when the joint is
assembled. The loss of contact for the glued up joint is negligible
and shouldn't affect joint strength.
Regards./
deeper than they "should" be. I then cut the cheeks to size for
thickness, but a tad (~1/16) less deep than the shoulder, allowing the
kerf from the shoulder cut to finish the cheekcut-off. This leaves a
1/8 wide band around the bottom of the cheek that is a tad thinner
than the rest of the cheeks, but it's hidden when the joint is
assembled. The loss of contact for the glued up joint is negligible
and shouldn't affect joint strength.
Regards./
dpb
Jun 1, 2012, 6:53:39 PM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/2012 3:45 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
...
> I do control the stock but it id folly to use a method that relys on
it if there is a more precise way. I am not trying to find a way to
control tenon thickness. I am trying to have a super clean shoulder cut
and if I do a first pass with the piece laid down for the shoulder and
then a second pass (on end) to do the cheek, I have to get the blade
height exact or I under or over cut the shoulder at the face of the cheek.
But that's still just one operation sequentially if you run each process
through all pieces.
I guess I've lost what the real problem was you were trying to solve and
the discussion earlier that the stock has enough thickness variation to
make it not fit seems to not go with the above.
I think I'll retire now... :)
--
...
> I do control the stock but it id folly to use a method that relys on
it if there is a more precise way. I am not trying to find a way to
control tenon thickness. I am trying to have a super clean shoulder cut
and if I do a first pass with the piece laid down for the shoulder and
then a second pass (on end) to do the cheek, I have to get the blade
height exact or I under or over cut the shoulder at the face of the cheek.
through all pieces.
I guess I've lost what the real problem was you were trying to solve and
the discussion earlier that the stock has enough thickness variation to
make it not fit seems to not go with the above.
I think I'll retire now... :)
--
Lew Hodgett
Jun 1, 2012, 10:17:25 PM6/1/12
to
"Pat Barber" wrote:
> Take a few minutes and watch this excellent video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKNE057fCk
>
> I have not built one yet but it is on my list of stuff to do.
SFWIW, that is a dead ringer for the set (1/4", 1/2" & 3/4") of sleds
used by Cerritos College for box joints.
They do a great job.
Lew
CW
Jun 1, 2012, 11:00:38 PM6/1/12
to
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
news:4980688e-5053-47d0...@googlegroups.com...
Start with your stick, all squared up and to size (though, with this method,
size doesn't matter). Set your blade so it will cut about 1/32 short of your
shoulder. Run your stock through the jig, using the spacer, as you normally
do. Then, turn it 90 degrees and cut that part, using appropriate spacers as
you did for the first side. Use a sled and a solid stop and cut your
shoulders.
routerman
Jun 2, 2012, 10:14:15 AM6/2/12
to
And now you're at the mercy of your jig. Any error in it is doubled
whence reversing the stock.
A 1/2 of a degree error in its normality will have the shoulders
sloping in opposite directions x 60" (where " = seconds).
Enough to require jamming the rail home to hide the shoulder error.
Now if you're an on-the-money jig maker (and metrologist) and can
prove its (the jig) dimensionality and squareness you have nuthin' to
worry about.
***********************************************
> Start with your stick, all squared up and to size (though, with this method,
> size doesn't matter). Set your blade so it will cut about 1/32 short of your
> shoulder. Run your stock through the jig, using the spacer, as you normally
> do. Then, turn it 90 degrees and cut that part, using appropriate spacers as
> you did for the first side. Use a sled and a solid stop and cut your
> shoulders.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
whence reversing the stock.
A 1/2 of a degree error in its normality will have the shoulders
sloping in opposite directions x 60" (where " = seconds).
Enough to require jamming the rail home to hide the shoulder error.
Now if you're an on-the-money jig maker (and metrologist) and can
prove its (the jig) dimensionality and squareness you have nuthin' to
worry about.
***********************************************
> Start with your stick, all squared up and to size (though, with this method,
> size doesn't matter). Set your blade so it will cut about 1/32 short of your
> shoulder. Run your stock through the jig, using the spacer, as you normally
> do. Then, turn it 90 degrees and cut that part, using appropriate spacers as
> you did for the first side. Use a sled and a solid stop and cut your
>
> - Show quoted text -
John Shear
Jun 4, 2012, 1:48:29 PM6/4/12
to
Ya, me too. I lay down the stock on the table and use the miter gauge
to run it over the dado blade. The fence is the stop. Simple and it
works great.
John S.
to run it over the dado blade. The fence is the stop. Simple and it
works great.
John S.
Swingman
Jun 4, 2012, 2:33:20 PM6/4/12
to
grasps the mechanics of using a Delta tenoning jig for making precise
height cheek cuts, after you've taken great care to make the initial
shoulder cuts to precisely match the project length of the piece.
Having passed a few thousand tenons over the table saw, at a minnimum, I
feel your pain.
That said, in my mind, the cleanup involved in doing it this way falls
in the category of "fine tuning" a joint, and that is supposed to take
some time and effort ... and more than makes up for the opposing
shoulders being precisely the correct length apart. :)
_IF_ I'm going to use my Tenon Jig, what works best for me is to get as
close to perfection with the blade height as possible when using the
Tenon Jig to cut the cheeks and, short of perfection, always erring
slightly on the side of an undercut, leaving a slight ridge that can be
easily cleaned up with a hand tool.
A good sharp shoulder plane works well to cleanup any ridge, but, with a
little practice, the flat side of a pattern maker's rasp works well, and
on most errant pieces takes just a couple of swipes.
Good luck with that ... machine precision, no matter how well setup, is
not always obtained without some hand tuning. :)
YMMV ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Jim Weisgram
Jun 5, 2012, 5:11:52 PM6/5/12
to
On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "SonomaProducts.com"
<bwx...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have been looking for the best method but my search is still not finding good info.
>
>I use a Delta tenon jig. to get the tenon width I have a nice method of using a spacer that is the desired size of the tenon plus the saw kerf. So my cheek to cheek is precise. What I want is precise shoulders.
>
>I first do a cross cut around the shoulders a little less deep than I will cut the cheeks. I can get that precisely where I want it using my miter guage and a stop block on the fence. Then when I cut the cheeks using the jog. I use a flat ground blade and raise the blade a little at a time in setup until I just match the earlier shoulder cut. But that is not exact. I can get it pretty good but as I said it isn't exact, it is two cuts defining the shoulder and slight shifts can make a little difference when running 20 parts, etc.
>
>Anyone else have a bettr method?
If what you are trying to do is quickly and accurately control the
>I have been looking for the best method but my search is still not finding good info.
>
>I use a Delta tenon jig. to get the tenon width I have a nice method of using a spacer that is the desired size of the tenon plus the saw kerf. So my cheek to cheek is precise. What I want is precise shoulders.
>
>I first do a cross cut around the shoulders a little less deep than I will cut the cheeks. I can get that precisely where I want it using my miter guage and a stop block on the fence. Then when I cut the cheeks using the jog. I use a flat ground blade and raise the blade a little at a time in setup until I just match the earlier shoulder cut. But that is not exact. I can get it pretty good but as I said it isn't exact, it is two cuts defining the shoulder and slight shifts can make a little difference when running 20 parts, etc.
>
>Anyone else have a bettr method?
height of cut of the table saw blade, maybe what you need is an
accurate height gauge such as this one:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Dial-Height-Gauge-6-/G9618
and a rip blade with flat raker teeth.
Or you could even make your own stand for a dial indicator.
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