drysuit
ernie
neoprene neck gasket rather than the usual latex. I know they are used
by kayakers but was wondering how effective it would be for a wetter
activity like windsurfing. stohlquist makes one called the B-pod.
they're conciderably less expensive than the Kokatat gore tex so was
considering one. Primary reason for the neoprene is comfort over the
latex.
Thanks,
Ernie
Dan Weiss
Ernie: I have not worn any of the kayaking dry tops with neoprene
gaskets but my father in law owns one and I've spoken to him about
your question and took another look at his top. I forget the brand,
so that's not a good start, but I would describe it as a spray top
rather than a dry top even though father in law says it keeps him dry
all the time. He's mostly an ocean/bay user and does not roll his
boat, so keep that in mind.
The advantage of latex is how thin it is and how easily it forms a
second skin over and around uneven surfaces. Neoprene is soft but not
as thin, and while it does mold to the skin pretty well, it does't
stick and stretch in the way latex does. If the neoprene was a smooth
skin on the inside that would improve its stickiness, but make it
possibly more nonconforming and uncomfortable than then latex.
I've used latex drysuits for the past 25 years. I carry my head on a
16.5" neck, the result of years of competitive wrestling. I must trim
the latex next seals as a result lest I suffer a slow strangulation.
The beauty of latex is that it will keep me dry even if I trim off
what I think is a bit too much. Latex seals don't seem to require
being so tight as most of us think. All you need is about a 1 cm ring
of contact to ensure watertightness in all but the most viscious slam
or a trip over the falls. And even then, the amount of water that
gets in is minimal. The key to keeping them comfortable is to keep
them flexible with a regular application of Seal Saver.
A hint someone gave me a long time ago is to sprinkle corn starch-type
baby powder on the inside of the neck seal before donning the top.
(Don't use talc-based powder as the talc-based or plain baby powder
because the talc will make tiny cuts in the latex and reduce it's
life). Doing this allows the top to slip on very easily and reduces
the gasket's tendency to pull on the skin. It doesn't seem to reduce
waterproofness but does a lot to increase comfort and virtually
eliminates any rash that might otherwise exist from a long session in
grippy latex.
I hope this helps a bit.
(PeteCresswell)
No experience here, but I've always been attracted by the
durability aspect.
My ideal dry suit for a lot of uses would be a neoprene farmer
john with dry top attached (like Bare's "Polar"), diagonal
zipper, and neoprene neck/wrist seals.
Personally, I've never, ever, come out of a dry suit totally dry.
If nothing else, my clothes are damp from sweat.
--
PeteCresswell
(PeteCresswell)
>
>A hint someone gave me a long time ago is to sprinkle corn starch-type
>baby powder on the inside of the neck seal before donning the top.
>(Don't use talc-based powder as the talc-based or plain baby powder
>because the talc will make tiny cuts in the latex and reduce it's
>life). Doing this allows the top to slip on very easily and reduces
>the gasket's tendency to pull on the skin. It doesn't seem to reduce
>waterproofness but does a lot to increase comfort and virtually
>eliminates any rash that might otherwise exist from a long session in
>grippy latex.
I used to do my seals with 303 to extend their life.
Couple years back I switched to "UV Tech" by McNett:
http://tinyurl.com/ya7uhob
Beeg improvement and it does a nice job of lubricating the wrist
seals - making them easier to slip in and out of.
McNett's web site needs work, but the product is, IMHO,
excellent.
--
PeteCresswell
mewin...@aol.com
Hi Ernie,
Many of us here on Long Island have switched from the Bare with latex
seals to the Oneil with the neoprene seals. I like the O'neil suit
much, much, much better and that seems to be the general consensus.
The neoprene seals are plenty water tight and there is no need to
maintain the seals like you need to do with the latex seals. I
bought my first O'neil drysuit 4 or 5 years ago and use it much more
than most during the winter moths. The zipper is what ended up going
on it at the end of this past winter. The neck and wrist seals were
still in great shape and would have lasted for years to come. It was
so much nicer than replacing those crappy Bare seals every other year.
The upper part of the suit is also breathable with 3 layers of
material compared to the Bare's single layer. The O'neil suit is also
much easier to get in and out of, more comfortable when wearing it and
is about $100 cheaper than the Bare. I just picked up a new O'neil
this spring. Should be set for another 4 or 5 years! I highly
recommend it. The only problem is that it doesn't come with a fleece
like the Bare does, so be sure to pick one up if you don't have
anything.
Mike Burns
Dan Weiss
HI Mike: What's the model name of the O'neil?
-Dan
Florian /FFF/
Hi Dan
I also have the suit Mike is referring to, and I am fully in
agreement.
It's called the Assault Hybrid:
I combine that with an O'Neill long arm fleece:
http://www.oneill.com/#/men/americacanada/collection/men/wetsuits/dive/core_insulative_layers/thermo_x_ls_crew_1/black/
They're sized a bit like rash guards, but not quite as flexible. Go a
size larger than you think...
The suit doesn't have the push buttons over the hip bone to hold the
fleece in place. Something that always gave me bruises under the
harness..
Also, the neoprene portion doesn't have a long john top (like the
Bare). This is actually nice, as it's easier to get in and out of than
a regular wetsuit.
The neoprene neck seal lets a little more water in than Latex, but is
infinitely more comfortable. No problem wave sailing in one.
Florian
(PeteCresswell)
>It's called the Assault Hybrid:
>
>http://www.oneill.com/#/men/americacanada/collection/men/technical/wake/drysuits/assault_hybrid_drysuit/black_grey/
What is it with across-the-shoulder zippers?
There's got tb a reason that they're used instead of diagonal
zips... but what?
--
PeteCresswell
Dan Weiss
>
> I combine that with an O'Neill long arm fleece:http://www.oneill.com/#/men/americacanada/collection/men/wetsuits/div...
>
> They're sized a bit like rash guards, but not quite as flexible. Go a
> size larger than you think...
>
> The suit doesn't have the push buttons over the hip bone to hold the
> fleece in place. Something that always gave me bruises under the
> harness..
> Also, the neoprene portion doesn't have a long john top (like the
> Bare). This is actually nice, as it's easier to get in and out of than
> a regular wetsuit.
>
> The neoprene neck seal lets a little more water in than Latex, but is
> infinitely more comfortable. No problem wave sailing in one.
>
> Florian
Thanks, Florian. I wasn't sure you still checked rec dot or that I
"plonked" you by mistake via my magic machine that lets me control the
google servers :)
Florian /FFF/
LOL!
Florian /FFF/
> Per Florian /FFF/:
>
> >It's called the Assault Hybrid:
>
>
> What is it with across-the-shoulder zippers?
>
> There's got tb a reason that they're used instead of diagonal
> zips... but what?
> --
> PeteCresswell
The zipper works pretty well, actually. Only the upper half of the
torso is loose-fitting nylon - the neoprene extends over the entire
area of my waist harness. I don't think a diagonal zipper would work
here.
ernie
Thanks for the advice Mike, I''ll dfinitely check out the Oneil.
ernie
Mike,
I checked the oneil site but not much info there. Is the assault
avaailable with a relief zipper and dry socks attached ? Whats the
cost ? Are all seals neoprene or only the neck ? you mentione the
guys on long island switching from the Bare to the Assault and I
noticed recently in Windsurfing Mag. an article on winter sailing
featured some Long Island sailors and all seemed to be wearing the
hybrid suits as well. Was wondering why they seem to be popular up
there but not here in NJ at my local site. I don't recall anyone
wearing a hybrid type suit, The Kokatat seems to be the suit of
chose here. Don't know why, considering the high cost of the
Kokatat gore tex.
(PeteCresswell)
>I checked the oneil site but not much info there. Is the assault
>avaailable with a relief zipper and dry socks attached ?
O'Neil's site is *bad*... It was bad two years ago; it's been
re-done; and it's bad today. It kind of wonders me how stuff
like that gets out the door - not the products, just the web
site.
I've got a relief zipper on my Kokatat bag suit because everybody
told me it was a "must have". My take is that suspenders are
the "must have" on a full bag suit and I could do without the
extra zipper.
I can't imagine dry socks being an option on a neo bottom suit
like the Assault or Bare's Polar: too hard to get the legs on and
off. Also, it would compromise the added bulletproofness of the
configuration - since water would pool in the feet.
--
PeteCresswell
mewin...@aol.com
HI Ernie,
Florian found the link for the suit on the Oneill site:
http://www.oneill.com/#/men/americacanada/collection/men/technical/wake/drysuits/assault_hybrid_drysuit/black_grey/
All the seals are neoprene on the Assault. There is no relief zipper,
hood or booties optional. I use Oneill winter boots (not sure about
the name) and full hood. Always nice and toasty.
Not having those annoying suspenders that the Bare has not only makes
the Assault soooooo much easier to get into, but it's also much, much
more comfortable. There really isn't a reason to have suspenders in
there anyway.
There are a couple sailors here and there with the Kokotat on LI too,
but just about everyone has settled into the Hybrid style suit. I
think one of the reasons people go with the hybrid is knowing that
the suit can't fill all the way up with water. I moronically forgot
to close my zipper one day last winter, went in after a few runs and
noticed it definitely took a little extra effort to waterstart. It
wasn't a huge problem, but I'm not sure how I would have faired if the
entire suit filled up from the waist down too. I've never used a
Kokotat personally so I can't really compare warmth for you, but I've
been out with temps into the low 20s with the assault and my record of
17 degrees with the Bare and I'm always warm. The problem always
starts with my fingers and toes before I really get cold. As long as
it's above freezing, We'll sail all day without getting cold.
I'm breaking out the Drysuit tomorrow!
Mike
(PeteCresswell)
> I moronically forgot
>to close my zipper one day last winter, went in after a few runs and
>noticed it definitely took a little extra effort to waterstart. It
>wasn't a huge problem, but I'm not sure how I would have faired if the
>entire suit filled up from the waist down too.
I think you would have had a beeeeg problem - especially if the
suit had attached socks.
I can't point to it at the moment, but somewhere there is an
account of a couple of Hobie Cat sailors who almost died just
trying to right their boat in bag suits/fleece under layers.
What happened was that the fleece eventually got so soaked from
small infiltrations around the neck/wrist (make a hard fist and
see the little tunnels formed by the tendons) that between the
added weight, hypothermia, and exhaustion they were unable to
even climb onto the bottom hull of the capsized catamaran.
My recollection is that they would have been goners except for
aid from a passing power boat.
My Kokatat bag (with built-in socks, no less) is the cat's meow
for ease of getting on/off.... but for bulletproof, I'll take my
Bare Polar.
--
PeteCresswell
ernie
Thanks Pete, Yea, my bad , I guess it would be a a real pain to get
out of a tight fitting suit with attached booties. Tough enough
without the boots in a regular wetsuit. m Your not kidding about the
Oniell site ! didn't even have a retail price for thesuit. Just a
small paragraph of info.
Ernie
ernie
>
> All the seals are neoprene on the Assault. There is no relief zipper,
> hood or booties optional. I use Oneill winter boots (not sure about
> the name) and full hood. Always nice and toasty.
>
> Not having those annoying suspenders that the Bare has not only makes
> the Assault soooooo much easier to get into, but it's also much, much
> more comfortable. There really isn't a reason to have suspenders in
> there anyway.
>
> There are a couple sailors here and there with the Kokotat on LI too,
> but just about everyone has settled into the Hybrid style suit. I
> think one of the reasons people go with the hybrid is knowing that
> the suit can't fill all the way up with water. I moronically forgot
> to close my zipper one day last winter, went in after a few runs and
> noticed it definitely took a little extra effort to waterstart. It
> wasn't a huge problem, but I'm not sure how I would have faired if the
> entire suit filled up from the waist down too. I've never used a
> Kokotat personally so I can't really compare warmth for you, but I've
> been out with temps into the low 20s with the assault and my record of
> 17 degrees with the Bare and I'm always warm. The problem always
> starts with my fingers and toes before I really get cold. As long as
> it's above freezing, We'll sail all day without getting cold.
>
> I'm breaking out the Drysuit tomorrow!
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Mike,
Yea I've heard that argument before , and it certainly makes sense.
In a worse case scenario like a zipper failure a bag suit could fill
with water in seconds where as a hybrid at least would keep the lower
body empty if not dry, allowing you to scramble onto the board. I'm
amazed you can go out in 20 degrees ! What kind of gloves are you
using ? I've tried Dakine mitts with a thin skin palm-not sure of
material- some kind of plastic, not neoprene- and was done in 10
mins.! The material must of been to slippery and I was probably
gripping to tight. My forearms were so numb I had to remove gloves
just to make it back to the beach. The neoprene gaskets all around
sound tempting, not only for ease of use and comfort but also lack of
maintenance and longevity, but you guys are probably alot better
sailors and hence not in the water much. My carve gybes usually
result in waterstart practice, so was wondering just how water tight
they would be. I also am really thin with small wrists which would
make it even more likely to get water entry. Aren't the tight ankles
very difficut to get on and especially off ? Can you zip it up and
off yourself or do you need help ? Is the neoprene lower part smooth
skin or covered in nylon? Sorry about all the ?'s thanks for the
help....
Ernie
Michael
the reason that group was all in hybrid suits is because of the belief
that they work better in the waves than the kokotat suits (I've never
worn a kokotat in the ocean so I have no direct experience.) Most
everyone I know in that group currently owns a Bare drysuit (including
me) though several of us (including me) are considering switching to
the Assault when our Bare's wear out. My reason (and that of at
least one guy I was speaking with about this last week) has been how
poorly the new Bare drysuits have been holding up...seals not lasting
very long, and the seams beginning to come apart after just a few
years. I don't have any issues with the suspenders (though I do
agree with Florian about the snap tabs...I pulled mine out...works
great).
If I was buying a drysuit right now I'd go for the Assault. Though
some flatwater friends of mine who sail at Napeague all the time swear
by their Kokotats.
-Michael
www.peconicpuffin.com
On Nov 4, 12:58 am, ernie <erniego...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chuck
O.K. let me make an argument for the Kokatat! Kokatats are top
of the line drysuits made by the manufacture for ocean and whitewater
kayaking the world over in cold weather and rough cold water
conditions. They also work just as well for windsurfing. The suits
are extremely well built and the breathable goretex definitely keeps
you dryer by allowing perspiration water vapor to pass through the
suit preventing your under garmets from getting damp with sweat.
I have a Kokatat GFRE (Goretex Front Entry Relief) the one with
the Goretex socks and the pee zipper. I have used this suit for the
last five windsurfing winter seasons both in the USA and the last
three years over here in Belgium and Holland. I love the suit and
have worn it in the full range of conditions from light wind flat
water sailing to full on 35-40knot+ gale wind 3.7 weather, to North
Sea winter ocean & wave sessions. Plus, you just can't beat that
extra zipper when its miserably cold and you have to go. There is
nothing worse than trying to get 2/3 of the way out of a drysuit to
pee when its 40 degrees out and the wind is blowing 25 knots. With
the Kokatat Relief zipper, its just not an issue. Plus I have never
had problems with the relief zipper interfering with my harness
either. Additionally, despite my many hard falls, crashes, and
wipeouts the suit material continues to hold up exceptionally well.
You may also find that your under garmets still get a little
damp, especially your upper body. This is because even though the
goretex breathes if you are expending a lot of energy your rate of
perspiration may exceed the ability of the suit to let it evaporate
out. I think this all depends on how cold it is and how many layers of
garmets you are wearing. Occasionally a hard slam head first may force
a small amount of water in through the neck seal but it has never been
a common problem or one that causes a loss of warmth or excessive
dampness beneath the suit. As long as you have a good neck seal and
your latex neck seal is in good condition this is not an issue to
worry about.
In cold conditions I wear a thin layer of 100% polypropelene
long underwear with a thicker set over that. The polypro and similar
material do a great job of wicking moisture away from you skin too
keeping you warmer and dryer. For socks I wear a thin polypro sock
with a thicker wool sock over that. Then when the suit is on I stick
my foot into an 5mm boot. My feet have never gotten cold and the boot
protects the gore tex sock from damage. For my hands I wear a pair
of neoprene gloves but if it is really cold I wear neoprene mittens. I
like the NRS Toaster Mitts made for Kayaking. I think they are better
built than the Dakine Mitts too. Since the suit sleeves are not as
restrictive and tight around your entire forearm like a wetsuit
sleeve, I find I can wear gloves much more easily without my fingers
getting numb, tired and cold. Then top it off with a good neoprene
hood and you will remain comfortable in the coldest conditions.
The Kokatat may be expensive initially at around $850(?) but if
properly taken care of, and with a change in the latex neck, wrist,
and ankle gaskets if you don't have the goretex socks every 3-4 year
or so, the suit should easily last 10-15 years. I think for what you
are asking the suit to allow you to do, and for the quality of the
construction plus years of use if properly cared for, that it is a
very reasonable price to pay. They do however, require a lot more
maintenance in terms of keeping the gaskets lubricated with Aerospace
Protectant 303, the reapplication of the DWR (Durable Water Repellent)
each season, and dry zipper care, but what you get in return is a
great suit that will let you enjoy windsurfing as long as the water is
not solid.
Chuck
Belgium
(PeteCresswell)
>hybrid suits is because of the belief
>that they work better in the waves than the kokotat suits (I've never
>worn a kokotat in the ocean so I have no direct experience.)
I have three problems with my Kokatat full bag suit in waves.
None of them are show-stoppers, but they're enough that I'll
wear my Bar Polar instead of the dry suit as long as it isn't
too warm.
- Vacuum bagging: When I fall in, the water pressure presses
the material against my legs, limiting mobility - especially
if the crotch is a little low. I find this tb mitigated
quite a bit by the suspenders I ordered in my new suit, but
a neo bottom is still noticeably easier to move around in
when in the water, water starting, or clambering on to a board.
- Streamlining: If I have to swim for my rig, the bag suit
is a lot slower for swimming. Not such a big deal in waves,
bc the rig's only going in one direction: towards the beach.
It's more of a consideration on the bay where the rig can
get blown way downwind.
- Leakage: Make a fist. Now note the little tunnels
formed by the tendons standing out. Same deal with
the neck. Also not a big deal, IMHO, bc in 30+ years
of dry suit use I've never, ever, come out of a dry suit
dry - there's always sweat. Just today, I forgot to bring
Polartec undergarments so I practiced paddling my SUP for
about an hour with street clothes under the bag suit.
Afterwards my long-sleeved shirt was so wet I could almost
wring it out.
--
PeteCresswell
ernie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Chuck,
Thanks for all the info. It's been a big help. If that suit holds up
in the North Sea it must be pretty damn well made ! You say you
change the seals every 3-4 years. How many days of use per year
approx. ? I wouldn't be using mine all that much.
Ernie
ernie
Pete, I was informed By Dan Wiess that you sail at Lakes Bay ? I
meant to post a thank you to all for the advice, but must have hit
the "Reply to author" key, and it went to Dan as a private e-mail I
guess. I asked if anyone was from the southern NJ area and he told
me you sail there frequently. I'm the skinny bald guy. I've
probably seen you , but don't know everyony there by name. Btw, if
you got that wet on your sleeve, have you checked the gasket ? maybe
it has a small hard to detect leak. Seems odd that paddling would
get it that wet.
Ernie
(PeteCresswell)
>I'm the skinny bald guy. I've
>probably seen you , but don't know everyony there by name. Btw, if
>you got that wet on your sleeve, have you checked the gasket ? maybe
>it has a small hard to detect leak. Seems odd that paddling would
>get it that wet.
I'm the used-to-be-skinny, funny-lookin' bald guy. White
beater Suburban with large rooftop box that used tb white.
Depends on hard one is paddling and the air temp. I'm *always*
at least damp in a dry suit - and often wet; so much so that it
took me most of a season to realize that the GorTex on my Kokatat
had failed. They replaced it... but it sure took me a long time
to catch on... -)
--
PeteCresswell
ernie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Michael
Thanks for the heads up about the Bare suits. I was looking at one on
e-bay, but would probably go with the Assault if I decide on a
Hybrid.