WTB - several old trim box fins for kids program
jeff feehan
My yacht club has just started a windsurfing program, as an adjunct
to our summertime junior sailing program. we have about 45 or 50
kids signed up for lessons. they do it either 2 or 3 times a week,
depending on their other activities. so far, they love it, and we're
hopeful that it will be a success.
we have a fleet of Bic Techno 293's. they are wide, and stable, and
seem like they will be fine. I don't know the details, but I think
Bic provided them at a reduced cost.
The only problem we have is that the boards came with the stock 46cm fins.
but, the kids are using sails between about 2.5 and 4.5 m^2. the kids
typically weigh 50-80lbs. they are having trouble steering the boards,
and i'd like to get them some smaller fins.
i'm not sure what size would be best, but if you have anything that i might get
for say $20 or so, let me know. i might need as many as 10 fins.
thanks.
jeff feehan
Glenn Woodell
a large fin would be ideal and since you're steering with the sail it
wouldn't have any effect. Could it be that the mast bases are too far
forward? A really small sail like that on a board that large is going
to need the mast moved way back in the track or else it's going to
want to keep bearing off and tacking could be rather difficult unless
they can drop the sail off the tail of the board.
Glenn
jeff feehan
i haven't actually been on the boards myself, maybe i'll try that today.
the instructor told me that the boards weren't turning easily.
the kids are working on sub-planing maneuvers - things like 360's,
tacks, jibes, etc. they are moving very slowly, so the fins have to
sweep through the water, as the board spins about the centerboard.
the bigger the fin, the greater resistance to spinning.
some of these kids are tiny - 8yrs old..., and 46cm just looks huge.
think back to the fin size on a windsurfer classic - those were tiny,
but i learned on one.
anyway, i think it's at least worth trying.
i guess i should contact roger or ellen.
so far - we're two weeks into the program, the excitement level of
the kids is pretty high. my daughter likes it better than opti sailing.
one 11 year old boy came off the water a few days ago, and i heard him say
"windsurfing is the best thing that's ever happened to me".
i think though, that after a few weeks, the kids will want to see
some real progress, and i want to make sure that the equipment is as
good as we can make it.
jeff
Switch
thing.
Depending on the possibilities of the board, either turn the centerboards
all the way up into the board, or just take them out entirely.
With a 46 cm fin and a wide board, stability should not suffer too much.
"jeff feehan" <jfe...@ix.netcom.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:BIKki.12$Md4...@newsfe12.lga...
wind.sh@dow
there are any on eBay right now, so I believe I saw them on a club
site. I thought it was Triangle, but there are none there.
http://www.windsensewindsurfing.com/consignment.html has a True Ames
38.5cm Fin, Trim Box...$25 and he could have more or know where some
are.
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:08:09 -0400, jeff feehan
<jfe...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Glenn Woodell
<gerco_van...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A 46 cm fin in combination with a centerboard seems to be too much of a good
>thing.
>
>Depending on the possibilities of the board, either turn the centerboards
>all the way up into the board, or just take them out entirely.
>With a 46 cm fin and a wide board, stability should not suffer too much.
I think you're right about that. I didn't realize there was also a
centerboard.
Glenn
wind.sh@dow
would give you a great deal. You might call Aerotech (Hydrotech fins)
and GSport for starters.
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:08:09 -0400, jeff feehan
<jfe...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
The Dog
let...@cox.net says...
> How is a smaller fin going to help?
It allows the kids to pivot the board around the c-board. For the
really small kids/rigs, we've been cutting the fins down to about 4
or 5 inches long. For bigger kids, we might use the factory fin, but
we try to use something in the 8 or 9 inch range.
Dog
~~~
What a long, strange trip it's be.... What? We're not there yet?
Coooooool.
Michael
283 with a cut-down stock fin, and it works well.
On Jul 10, 9:03 am, The Dog <google_posting_...@yahoo.com> wrote: For
Jens...@gmail.com
once you put small Fins on.
All our boards, JP Funsters for ex., have a standard 28 cm fins,
large surface area .
Cutting down the original Fins would work quite well.
Volume of the board and weight of Kid is a big issue with small Kids
Sails !!
Would help to have some Boards with lower Volume , but similar width.
Greetings
Jens
wind.sh@dow
Toward bottom of page:
Fins....Trimbox...Powerbox...Tuttle...Tiga and Std. Box
Never used and like new Trim Box...G-10, epoxy and carbon....blade,
pointers and convertible shapes...like new $30-60.00... new
$40-$70.00. Power Box, Standard, and Tuttle fins $30-$90.00 used and
new. Also 60cm Debiochet deep Tuttle $90.00 and never used G-10 18"
Curtis Trimbox Weed fin, for formula boards $90.00. E-mail or call for
more info.
Posted 07/03/2007. Email Jon or call 405-821-0021. Hood River, OR.
wind.sh@dow
Rainbow Agressor 11.5" Trim Box fin
Like new. $40.
Posted 07/01/2007. Email Steve or call 509-773-3676. Goldendale, WA.
sail...@embarqmail.com
Ellen and I discussed this topic some last nite.
I see a few different issues here.
I'll have to see if the Hateras Shops have a 293 OD I can borrow to do
some testing.
First issue is mast base placement.
Since the tiny rigs (2.5 m2 Ellen suggests) have the CE of the sail so
close to the mast, it's imperative
that the mast foot go as far back (and over the CLR of the
centerboard) as possible.
Next, we need to define what the biggest problem is here? That will be
the primary issue.
Are the smaller kids not able to sail upwind, or are they simply
having a difficult time getting the boards to turn in tacks and jibes?
If they are having troubles going upwind, the smaller fins can help,
by moving the combined CLR of the fin and centerboard a little
further
forward (reducing the size of the rear fin cuts the amount of
resistance to turning at the back of the board and moves the overall
CLR forward
marginally.)
If the boards simply do not want to turn, there are a couple of issues
that may help, alot.
I'm not sure who your instructor there is and what his/her experience
may be with big boards and tiny sails.
We've discovered that many instructors use techniques more suitable
for narrower boards and larger sails.
Using 1000's of students (over the last 9 years of "A Taste of
Windsurfing" events) we've discovered that "driving" the board up into
the wind (in a tack)
using the power in the rig solves alot of problems with the smaller
sails.
Here's the technique we've been using:
Sailing along on a beam reach, have the students lift their front heel
off the board (foot positions are per US Sailing Level 1 Instructors
manual, i.e. front foot
upwind of fore/aft centerline about 4-6" and about 4-6 " behind the
mast foot, back foot heel is directly over the center line with the
foot downwind of centerline and
angled slightly toes forward). Lifting the front heel puts all their
weight on the back foot and will cause the board to start heading
upwind with no change in the rig position.
As the board begins to "round up" the rig is sheeted in and raked back
until the foot of the sail rests on the back of the board (YES! All
the way down on the deck!) with the foot
pulled across the centerline to the outboard footstrap on the upwind
side of the board.
This "drives" the board up and through the eye of the wind.
Now here comes the part where we deviate from US Sailing Level
1......we have our students step over the mast (inclined back with the
foot of the sail resting on the tail of the board.
Then they simply sweep the rig out to leeward until the wind is again
abeam and the board and rig are in the "T" position and ready to sail
away on an opposite tack beam reach.
Here's the rationale for this technique (we know it works because we
just did 36 students in Plattsburgh, NY (Lake Champlain) with the
Adirondak Boardsailing Club and the Assoc. Planche
Voiles Montreal (APVM)).
If a small rig is not used to "power" the board up into the wind, and
it's not raked back until the foot rests on the back of the board you
lose much of the "turning moment" that these little sails can develop.
The further back you get the CE of the rig, the faster the board will
turn.
If you use the normal US Sailing Level 1 technique and step forward of
the mast foot, you either have to bend over toward the rear of the
board way too far, or your end up pulling the rig back up before the
turn is completed (which absolutely stops the board from turning).
Show this technique to your instructor, and have him/her try it out
with one of the little 2.5 m2 rigs you have.
If it works for an adult with the 2.5 m2 rig, it will certainly work
for the kids.
The board will turn much faster, and they may even be planing through
their tacks before too long.
The other "dynamic" here is that shifting the weight forward dorps the
nose of the board and this always puts on the brakes! So, if your
little sailors can "drive" their boards
up through a tack, and not move forward (putting on the brakes) the
board will come around significantly faster.
Same thing for their jibes.
Use the US sailing level 1 jibing technique, but the kids have to
understand that getting the rig really balanced on the mast foot and
way across to the upwind side so the board is
"driven" around is the key to good jibes as well.
Also, these are yacht club racer kids, right?
For their jibes, have them retract the centerboard and carve their
jibes as they would on a shortboard (lee rail down to initiate).
If they leave the CB down, they have to "go around the outside"
tipping the board upwind rail down to get it to jibe.
Doing longboard style "tip the rail to the outside" jibes are much
more difficult when you don't have a rig large enough or far enough
back
to counter the lift from the CB and fin.
Hope this helps,
a_m...@yahoo.com
more I find that Roger's advice is spot on. The 1.7 we're using,
especially with me on the board with her, really only works if we're
in the Gorge, where there's plenty of wind and the current takes us
upwind. On our local lake, that setup causes a major downwind drift -
with my weight on the nose, we just can't stay upwind due to lack of
power and the the CE/CLR balance being so off. Smaller fin has helped
some. I'm thinking that with her on the board by herself, it will be
easier (especially if I'm available to tow her back with a longboard
and big sail), but it's hard to get her to be excited to be on the
board by herself - she thinks of windsurfing as something we do
together on her Start.
Any advice for how to transition kids this young into solo-ing?
-Andreas
sail...@embarqmail.com
Short of building a mast track slot extender, the only thing I can
think of is the other new thing we've decided
to use in the "A Taste of Windsurfing" Program.
We've been using a "between 2 boards" tether system that really has
dramatically improved the success rate, and at the same
time improved our ability to stay "on schedule" (about 6 students per
hour).
It might work with your daughter to get her used to sailing the board
by herself, and giving her a
a little "challenge" that doesn't involve sending her out in the
mighty Columbia River all by herself (at least not until she's
proved to you that she can handle it.
The "tether" is 2 pieces of 1/8-5/16" line with a short 18" section of
bungee cord spliced or tied in the middle to act as a
"shock absorber" so you don't rip the board out from under the
student.
Here's the "challenge" part.
Tell your daughter (or other student) that their job is to sail well
enough to keep slack in the line.
This requires the instructor (Dad in your case) to use a small rig and
be able to sail at the same speed the students board
(your daughter's Start) has the potential for.
Bigger sails on the instructors board are really undesireable to make
this system work the best.
I'm pretty sure you will be surprised at how quickly she is able to
sail along with slack in the line.
When she can maintain her upwind position, and keep slack most of the
time, it's time to "let her loose" to
sail on her own power with her own steering.
Nice thing about all this is that you (the dad/instructor) are only
about 15-20 feet away, so you can be "right there" in any
sort of emergency, but you are far enogh away to enable her to feel
she's sailing the board pretty much on her own.
The instructor has the ability to control the direction (by actually
doing some "towing") until such time as you can determine
(by constant slack in the rope) that the student can sail upwind as
well as the instructor.
Tie the instructor end of the tether to your mast base, and the
student end of the tether to the nose of her board.
Another "feature" of this tether system is that the student is right
behind you so they begin to imitate your actions.
You sheet out for a little gust and so do they.
You rake the rig back a little to head upwind in increasing winds or
on a lift, and the student will do the same as the "game"
or "challenge" is to put slack in the rope and the student quickly
finds out that what the instructor is doing can be imitated
and that it works.
If you really want to get the most upwind performance from her Start
(or any other board with a mast track that ends too
far forward for a good "over the CLR with the CE" balance, you can
have an insert added to the board or better still just make
an extension track (encased in a radiused piece of hardwood plank or
marine plywood) so you can get the mast foot back where it
belongs. (very close, with tiny sails < 2.5 m2 to the CLR of the
centerboard.)
Hope this helps,
For Jeff,
The local shop does have a Bic 293 OD.
I was impressed that Bic put the adj. mast track in the board so it
extends almost back to the front of the CB cassette.
Perhaps I can borrow the board and a 2.5 m2 Bic Kids rig and do some
testing.
a_m...@yahoo.com
thanks - this is very helpful.
> Tie the instructor end of the tether to your mast base,
I assume that's to keep the towing board from rounding up (as it might
if you attach the tether to the rear strap)?
> If you really want to get the most upwind performance from her Start
> (or any other board with a mast track that ends too
> far forward for a good "over the CLR with the CE" balance, you can
> have an insert added to the board or better still just make
> an extension track (encased in a radiused piece of hardwood plank or
> marine plywood) so you can get the mast foot back where it
> belongs. (very close, with tiny sails < 2.5 m2 to the CLR of the
> centerboard.)
Are there any pics available of successful implementation of either
approach? I'm sure I could think up something, but I'm also sure that
someone has already come up with something better than my first few
iterations would prove to be...
> Hope this helps,
It does - off to make a tether ;)
Thanks again - and thanks for making 'A Taste of Windsurfing' happen
year after year!
-Andreas
sail...@embarqmail.com
> Roger,
> thanks - this is very helpful.
>
> > Tie the instructor end of the tether to your mast base,
>
> I assume that's to keep the towing board from rounding up (as it might
> if you attach the tether to the rear strap)?
the only logical place
to connect to.
The power is applied at the mast foot, and you have a full range of
directional control with the pull applied
to the mast foot.
Tie it off anywhere else, and the "pull" will steer you.
Off center on a rear footstrap will take you upwind or downwind
(depends on whether you use the upwind strap (tends to turn you
upwind) or the downwind strap (tends to turn you downwind) as the
straps are off the centerline and the pull exerts an assymetical force
off the centerline of the board. Mast foot gives a symetrical pull
right at the source of the power.
>
> > If you really want to get the most upwind performance from her Start
> > (or any other board with a mast track that ends too
> > far forward for a good "over the CLR with the CE" balance, you can
> > have an insert added to the board or better still just make
> > an extension track (encased in a radiused piece of hardwood plank or
> > marine plywood) so you can get the mast foot back where it
> > belongs. (very close, with tiny sails < 2.5 m2 to the CLR of the
> > centerboard.)
>
> Are there any pics available of successful implementation of either
> approach? I'm sure I could think up something, but I'm also sure that
> someone has already come up with something better than my first few
> iterations would prove to be...
I'll try to find my "mast track extender" and take a picture.
I used an piece of aluminum "T"Track I bought.
I routed a tight slot in a piece of 5/8" thick hardwood that's the
same width across as
a normal mast base twist plate and then glued the alu. mini track into
the wood.
Plenty strong, and not really all that "clunky" if you radius the
edges..
I used a std. T nut at the front and the front center fin screw at the
back with a long 1/4"-20
bolt.
Not sure which Start you have (Clipper box or center fin, but you can
easily adapt the rear
attachment to either configuration.
Here's a link to the mini "T" Track I used:
http://www.ttrackusa.com/track_%20systems.htm
>
> > Hope this helps,
>
> It does - off to make a tether ;)
Cool! I think both you and your daughter will like the tether idea.
Make it a game, and she may
like it even more. Maybe she will keep lot's of slack in the rope and
can say "I sailed faster than my Dad.
As the instructor, you have the ability to control the extent to which
she sails "faster than daddy".
At first, do a bit of towing ( it's usually the only way you can get
them going right at first) but soon
you can back off a little to "control their success".
Finally, she will almost sail by you upwind. Then you can unhook, or
change boards/rigs and let her teach you.
>
> Thanks again - and thanks for making 'A Taste of Windsurfing' happen
> year after year!
This may be the last year for a full ATOW program as the USDOT is
causing me lot's of problems.
Confiscated my truck for 24 hours, $1k fine, just crazy "over
regulation" stuff for a volunteer non-profit program to have to put
up
with.
If I was getting rich doing ATOW I could see their point, but it's
cost me something
out of pocket every year.
>
> -Andreas
>
> http://g-42.blogspot.com