must carry digital?
Rick Merrill
companies required to put 7.1,7.2, 7.3, etc
on Limited Basic channels?
whosbest54
rick0....@gmail.com says...
>
>
>When digital becomes over-the-air, aren't cable
>companies required to put 7.1,7.2, 7.3, etc
>on Limited Basic channels?
>
sending out digital broadcasts. What happens in 2/09 is the OTA analog
ends.
Cable systems by FCC regs have to carry the 'must carry' stations on
their most basic tier. Some of the new digital subchannels may or may
not be 'must carry'. Perhaps other posters who know the regulatory
issues better can shed more light on this. It remains to be seen if they
all will be 'must carry'; if not, then it will depend on the individual
carry agreement the cable company has with the local broadcaster.
A common approach may be to carry the main network channel as analog for
the most basic analog tier, as well as clear QAM for the digital services
and carry the subchannels in only clear QAM.
whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.
Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/
Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/rmb.html
whosbest54
whosb...@NOSPAM.yahoo.com.invalid says...
>
>Cable systems by FCC regs have to carry the 'must carry' stations on
>their most basic tier. Some of the new digital subchannels may or may
>not be 'must carry'. Perhaps other posters who know the regulatory
>issues better can shed more light on this. It remains to be seen if they
>all will be 'must carry'; if not, then it will depend on the individual
>carry agreement the cable company has with the local broadcaster.
>
the subchannels would be "must carry", but it was pulled and there still is
no requirement that the subchannels be "must carry".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must-carry#Digital_must-carry
I don't believe the subsequent 2007 regulation mentioned applies to
subchannels, but I may be wrong. The later reg requires cable companies to
carry the "must carry" stations for at least 3 years in analog or provide
digital converters for all subscribers.
Rick Merrill
I propose we send a letter to our cable TV supplier saying the following:
Some of our townspeople have Limited Basic service, use "cable-ready"
TV, and some have purchased "Converter Boxes" using government coupons.
They have noticed that you are not supplying stations in the Basic Tier
which are in fact available from "over the air" stations, including the
digital subchannels. Therefore they feel that you, are in violation of
the FCC "must carry" regulations of 1984 and the Franchise contract
awarded to you by the town of <> on 15 April 2004.
We hereby request that you find a way to supply every over-the-air
station whether analog or digital to subscribers of Limited Basic
service. We understand that this could be done by supplying a free,
limited, set top box to subscribers with Limited Basic service or by
downconverting the digital signal to analog or by some other method.
We hope that it will not be necessary to hold a Performance Evaluation
Hearing in accordance with Section 11.2 of the franchise contract.
Sincerely,
<board of selectmen>
==
Section 11.2---PERFORMANCE EVALUATION HEARINGS
(a) Not more than once in every twelve (12) month period, the Issuing
Authority may hold a performance evaluation hearing every year of this
Renewal License. All such evaluation hearings shall be open to the
public. The purpose of said evaluation hearing shall be to, among other
things, (i) review the Licensee's compliance to the terms and conditions
of this Renewal License, with emphasis on PEG Access Channels,
facilities and support; customer service and Complaint response; and
Programming; and (ii) hear comments, suggestions and/or Complaints from
the public. The Issuing Authority shall provide the Licensee with sixty
(60) days advance, written notice regarding the hearing date and
compliance matters.
(b) The Issuing Authority shall have the right to question the
Licensee on any aspect of this Renewal License including, but not
limited to, the operation, maintenance and/or removal of the Cable
Television System. During review and evaluation by the Issuing
Authority, the Licensee shall fully cooperate with the Issuing Authority
and/or its designee(s), and produce such documents or other materials as
are reasonably requested from the Town. Any Subscriber or other Person
may submit comments during such review hearing, either orally or in
writing, and such comments shall be duly considered by the Issuing
Authority.
whosbest54
rick0....@gmail.com says...
>
>I propose we send a letter to our cable TV supplier saying the following:
>
Might work if your franchise agreement specifically requires the cable
company to carry the digital subchannels. Does it?
Rick Merrill
> In article <6-Sdnee5nJIzeRTV...@comcast.com>,
> rick0....@gmail.com says...
>> I propose we send a letter to our cable TV supplier saying the following:
>>
> <snipped>
>
> Might work if your franchise agreement specifically requires the cable
> company to carry the digital subchannels. Does it?
>
> whosbest54
>
Snort! The people who did the contract (lawyers) didn't really think
there was a difference between analog and digital: "tv is tv, right?"
I myself only learned the term "subchannels" a few weeks ago. If I were
to say "subchannels" to someone they would give me the ol' stink-eye!
No, I think our best bet is to Assume the sub-channels are in fact
over-the-air and that's that!
Syfo-Dyas
Good luck kiddo!!!!!!!!
Rick Merrill
My lawyer says it should be obvious that "channel" is a superset of
"subchannel."
RickMerrill
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:37:43 -0400, Rick Merrill
> for the main channels not the sub channels.
Greg, How do you arrive at that? Is it because of the contract that the
broadcasters make with the cable company? - Rick
RickMerrill
> The must carry rule applies to over the air broadcast main channel not
> the sub channels.
>
> As others have said. The cable company can go all digital., then they
> must provide a box for each subscriber.
>
> If any part remains analog. They must provide the broadcast stations
> in analog.
>
> The local stations must also be broadcast in Clear qam.
>
> The only exception is if the TV stations gives up the Must Carry rule.
>
> There is one merky area. Where the same stations broadcast over the
> air network on the sub channels. The Main Channel would have CBS.
> The Sub channel (S) could have mynetwok tv or ION(PAX) or both.
>
> For example. Wrtv 6 has ABC and their own news channel (Ch64)
> Ch64 does not broadcast over the air, so the must rule does not apply
> to ch64.
>
> Another thing that is confusing. That Channel 6 could claim that 64
> is broadcasting over the air. Since, you can get it on 6.2 channel
> six sub channel. That a grey area.
>
>
> Greg
>
Murk! That's the ticket!-) Suppose, just suppose, I see ch6 on cable
analog and on 6-1 (ota digital), and I see 6-4 (ota digital) with
different content but that content is not on cable (analog nor digital).
Do I contact ch6-the-tv-station-manager and say, "hey, did you give up
'must carry'?"?
GeorgeB
wrote:
(trimed externally and internally ...)
>No. It because of the FCC. The time limit is 3 years from 2009.
>The must carry rule applies to over the air broadcast main channel not
>the sub channels.
>
>The local stations must also be broadcast in Clear qam.
>
>The only exception is if the TV stations gives up the Must Carry rule.
>
>Greg
Greg, I've read, and think I understand <g> the FCC requirements, and
cannot fine the "local stations must also be broadcast in Clear qam"
part, UNLESS they are not furnished in analog.
I'm also curious if there has been an interpretation if the clear QAM
must be HD if the broadcast is HD. Do you have anything there? That
would be the "main channel", I'd think, although as I understand it,
8.1, 8.2, and 8.3 are subchannels; there will be no plain 8 with
digital, will there? "main" thus will need to be defined as well;
have you seen any definition?
As in "local stations must", have you found a definition of local?
whosbest54
>
>>> I am not sure if I understand your posting but the must carry is only
>>> for the main channels not the sub channels.
>>
>>Greg, How do you arrive at that? Is it because of the contract that the
>>broadcasters make with the cable company? - Rick
>
>The must carry rule applies to over the air broadcast main channel not
>the sub channels.
>
>must provide a box for each subscriber.
>
>If any part remains analog. They must provide the broadcast stations
>in analog.
>
>
>The only exception is if the TV stations gives up the Must Carry rule.
>
>air network on the sub channels. The Main Channel would have CBS.
>The Sub channel (S) could have mynetwok tv or ION(PAX) or both.
>
>For example. Wrtv 6 has ABC and their own news channel (Ch64)
>Ch64 does not broadcast over the air, so the must rule does not apply
>to ch64.
>
>Another thing that is confusing. That Channel 6 could claim that 64
>is broadcasting over the air. Since, you can get it on 6.2 channel
>six sub channel. That a grey area.
>
this area. You should know that Rick (the OP) had questions that related to
the requiring carriage of digital subchannels and enforcement of a local
franchise agreement. That agreement may or may not use the same definitions as
the FCC uses and could, depending on how it is worded, require the local cable
system to carry the digital subchannels. As you probably know, contracts
(agreements) can go beyond FCC requirements. The agreement appears to predate
the adoption of the requirements you summarize.
When I originally posted to this thread in July, I didn't take the time to
actually look up the FCC regs and related documents. I simply cited a
Wikipedia article and left the question of carriage of subchannels unanswered.
The FCC order adopting the rules you cite is FCC 07-170, available here in MS
Word, PDF and plain text:
http://www.fcc.gov/Document_Indexes/Media/2007_index_MB_RO_NPRM.html
The publication in the Federal Register of the regs and order took place on
2/1/08 with an effective date of 3/1/08. The FR notice is here:
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/register/2008/feb/01/6043A.pdf
Some comments on your summary:
- The 3 year sunset is intended to allow the FCC to study the situation and
potentially replace these requirements with something else or allow them to be
extended. Personally, I doubt very much that all the requirements will be
allowed simply to expire. I believe many have assumed that the cable companies
will be automatically off the hook in 3 years. I don't agree with that.
- Digital subchannels - the heart of this discussion thread. Unfortunately,
it's not as clear as I would like, but I do believe, as you state, that the reg
does not generally impose a requirement for cable companies to carry all
digital subchannels. Summary point 10 of the order states that they decline to
adopt a proposal to carry "secondary channels" (whatever that means, but I
believe it means digital subchannels) and states the order only applies to the
"...broadcasterís primary video and program related content".
Summary point 25 states the reg "...requires carriage only of a single
broadcast signal, and gives operators the freedom to choose how to ensure that
signal is viewable by all subscribers. It does not require carriage of more
than one broadcast signal from a given must-carry broadcaster, and it does not
require carriage of an analog version of a signal unless an operator chooses
not to operate an all-digital system."
I believe they are citing must carry requirements in earlier regulations, which
may leave some room for interpretation as to which channel is the "primary" one
when there are subchannels. In any case, most broadcasters will have a HD
channel and then one or more SD subchannels, and I think the intent is the HD
channel is the "primary" one in that instance. Another determining factor is
what the broadcaster was putting out on their analog channel - most are
duplicating that content in HD on their primary digital channel - that
situation seems clear to me.
I suppose there will be cases where a broadcaster might forgo HD and have all
SD channels, then there may be some room for interpretation. However, even in
those cases, I think it will be easy to determine which is the primary station
based on content and what the broadcaster has or had on analog, or the cable
co. would have to ask the broadcaster to tell them which one is, and if they
refuse to designate, then the cable co. would determine for them or ask the
government to determine.
As I stated earlier in the thread, the reality is many cable systems will carry
the digital subchannels at least digitally in clear QAM, but not because they
are required to by the FCC. A few might put them on the analog band. Some
will do so as part of a retransmission agreement - which when entered into,
means the broadcaster is not subject to must carry requirements, or, perhaps,
as a requirement under a franchise agreement with the local government.
The examples you provide about what is murky weren't clear to me. If a
broadcaster has their ABC or CBS affiliate station as their main HD station, as
well as their current analog channel, and an all news channel on a digital SD
subchannel, then I would say that yes, the news channel is being broadcast
(digitally only), but it wouldn't be the "primary video and program related
content". The primary content is the ABC or CBS station.
- Local stations must be in clear QAM - Well, not all the stations and
subchannels. Perhaps you are referring to the FCC reaffirmation in the reg
that HD be carried on cable in HD, but the refusal at this time to require that
there be no loss in bits of data and the standard be based on what a viewer
perceives, which would allow for compression. This is their regulatory
interpretation and implementation of the statutory "no degradation"
requirement. Also, there is a somewhat unclear statement under summary point
38 responding to a Consumers Electronic Association suggestion that they
clarify that clear QAM is required for these stations. The FCC stated that
"...our rules are designed to ensure that all subscribers to a cable system
have ëëin the clearíí access to all must carry stations." I'm not sure if they
are only referring to the analog must carry part or something else.
In any case, many systems are carrying the local primary commercial and public
broadcasting network HD stations in clear QAM. I'm just not sure if that's
mandated by the FCC or if it's done as part of retransmission agreements, or
the cable companies' goodness of their hearts (yeah, right). If a system goes
all digital and ends up carrying the locals in encrypted QAM and requires their
boxes to get it, then I'm not sure if they comply with this rule or if the rule
even addresses that situation.
====
Finally, there's the issue of who pays for boxes once a system goes all
digital. The rule says the cable company doesn't have to provide them for
free. Under summary point 40 they state "As to cable operatorsí concerns about
the expense of providing set-top boxes, nothing in this order precludes them
from recovering the costs of those boxes from subscribers." They just have to
provide them, they can't be unavailable. This means they can rent them,
provide them for sale or for free. I would bet most systems will only offer to
rent them. Contrary to the FCC's statements under this summary point, I would
bet many subscribers will not want boxes when systems go all digital and they
could lose large numbers of subscribers. We'll see if the FCC looks at this
issue again before this rule expires.
whosbest54
>
>That is where I got the "in the clear." However, I just read a
>report if the CC are forced to carry the sub channels. They will take
>it to court and go all the way to the supreme court.
>
I don't see the FCC requiring the subchannels to be carried as must carry any
time soon, if at all. Many systems will carry them anyway, mostly in digital,
many in clear QAM, for the reasons I already stated.
>The cable companies could fix that problem real easy and it would
>clear up more channels for them. Since, most people will be getting
>new tvs with ATSC/QAM signal. They should just retransmit the ATSC
>signal to the TVs. Then the rest would be available through the
>cable box. Problem solved we would have hdtv, digital tv and the
>like. This would work once they got rid of the analog channels. In
>areas where ch3 (virtual or real) is assigned they would either have
>to change the box to ch4 or hook it up through audio/video input of
>tv. Then they would not have to provide cable boxes for those
>subscribers.
>
I saw a usenet post or a report once that at least one cable co. was
considering some channels going out in ATSC. Never saw any more on that, and I
don't anticipate many systems will bother. However, there are some advantages
to it - including making use of the coupon elegible converter boxes.
Replacing the millions of analog sets out there isn't going to happen right
away. There are the issues of cost and old TV disposal.
Eventually, cable systems will go all digital or mostly digital with a very
basic analog tier of just a few channels - the local must carries and a couple
more. At that point the systems will have to bite the bullet and provide boxes
with all the costs and risks that go with them. Yes, by then more people will
have digital TVs with QAM tuners built in, but millions won't.
RickMerrill
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:00:50 -0400, Greg P <inv...@invalid.net>
> wrote:
>
> (trimed externally and internally ...)
>
>> No. It because of the FCC. The time limit is 3 years from 2009.
>> The must carry rule applies to over the air broadcast main channel not
>> the sub channels.
>>
>> The local stations must also be broadcast in Clear qam.
>>
>> The only exception is if the TV stations gives up the Must Carry rule.
>>
>> Greg
>
> Greg, I've read, and think I understand <g> the FCC requirements, and
> part, UNLESS they are not furnished in analog.
At least one cable company in MA provides the analog-ota both as clear
QAM and as analog. If a viewer has a cable-box, they see the QAM; if a
viewer has only cable-ready-tv then they view the analog version. The
cable-box sees the user push "ch7" and the box has been programmed to
know which of the 900 odd channels carries the digital version.
> I'm also curious if there has been an interpretation if the clear QAM
> must be HD if the broadcast is HD. Do you have anything there? That
> would be the "main channel", I'd think, although as I understand it,
> 8.1, 8.2, and 8.3 are subchannels; there will be no plain 8 with
> digital, will there? "main" thus will need to be defined as well;
> have you seen any definition?
With digital-over-the-air you use an ATSC tuner and you will still have
"low power TV stations" broadcasting in analog so you will need an NTSC
tuner. When you go buy your digital-box, try to get one with "Analog
PassThrough" (This is one fact that may be useful to you.)
A ruling on carrying HD in QAM is not needed because it is cheaper &
simpler for the cable company to take the digital HD signal and
re-transmit it in digital QAM.
You can find the local ota stations with dash-codes:
TV = analog
DT = digital
ST = standard definition
HD = high definition
LP = low power
CA = LP class A (they could up their power and convert to digital)
In digital ota all channels are sub-channels ;-)
for example, 68-1,68-2,68-3, 68-4 and 42-5 are in MA.
> As in "local stations must", have you found a definition of local?
As a practical matter, it means whatever you can pick up!
RickMerrill
In 2012 cable companies are free to go all digital. But maybe it
doesn't matter because the OTA digital provide MORE channels than Cable
"basic"!!!
whosbest54
Rick0....@gmail.NOSPAM.com says...
>
>In 2012 cable companies are free to go all digital. But maybe it
>doesn't matter because the OTA digital provide MORE channels than Cable
>"basic"!!!
>
"- The 3 year sunset is intended to allow the FCC to study the situation and
potentially replace these requirements with something else or allow them to be
extended. Personally, I doubt very much that all the requirements will be
allowed simply to expire. I believe many have assumed that the cable companies
will be automatically off the hook in 3 years. I don't agree with that."
And, you're right that for folks in many markets, basic analog cable may be
less appealing than what they can get OTA with a ATSC tuner.
whosbest54
>doesn't matter because the OTA digital provide MORE channels than Cable
>"basic"!!!
>
all their customers with analog sets. They don't have to provide them for
free.
whosbest54