Tasers NEVER killed Anyone
Taser Lover
It's true Richard Nixon and OJ Simpson did nothing wrong. The lack of
evidence proves this as does the fact the Tasers never killed any one.
Dziekanski's death not caused by Taser, says device maker
Taser International Inc. lashes out a media in statement released late
Friday, sends 60 legal letters demanding corrections to 'false and
misleading headlines'
Globe and Mail Update
The following statement, released late Friday, is attributed to Tom
Smith, founder and chairman of Arizona-based TASER International Inc.,
in response to the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport:
An amateur video of the incident that was released earlier this week has
received sensational coverage from the media with many reports drawing
an unsubstantiated and uninformed conclusion as to the cause of Mr.
Dziekanski's death.
This tragic incident appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody
deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police. Historically
medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are
attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical
discharge of the TASER. Specifically in Canada, while previous incidents
were widely reported in the media as 'TASER deaths,' the role of the
TASER device has been cleared in every case to date – including the
widely publicized Bagnell in-custody death in Vancouver where the TASER
device was cleared by an inquest jury.
Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate. The video of
the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was
continuing to fight well after the TASER application. This continuing
struggle could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the
TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His continuing
struggle is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death.
Further, the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a
potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania
such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and
violence toward inanimate objects.
We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have
irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the TASER device
and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death
before completion of the investigation. These sensationalistic media
reports completely ignore the earmark symptoms of excited delirium shown
in the video. TASER International is transmitting over 60 legal demand
letters requiring correction of these false and misleading headlines and
will take other actions as appropriate. These unsubstantiated, false
headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy
in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the
public at greater risk.
J.Robertson
It was the idiot police officers that didn't follow their training and RCMP
protocol in dealing with suspects. It was tasing him twice, and 3 officers
kneeling on his back and neck, not letting him breathe.
It was the officers' refusal to administer First Aid.
They let him die, they could have saved him after they rendered him
unconscious.
"Taser Lover" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:nPn0j.11831$cD.3226@pd7urf2no...
Dave Smith
>
> We all agree, it wasn't the Taser that killed him.
>
> It was the idiot police officers that didn't follow their training and RCMP
> protocol in dealing with suspects. It was tasing him twice, and 3 officers
> kneeling on his back and neck, not letting him breathe.
Those officers acted exactly as they are trained to.
J.Robertson
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4742231F...@sympatico.ca...
No they didn't.
Compare the RCMP official response guidelines to what the officers did. Not
even close.
Rubbish
Exactly, and you're an expert because you have gone through the RCMP
Training program and have received additional training in the use of the
taser. You also have the RCMP's IM manual memorized too.
J.Robertson
"Rubbish" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:oxp0j.12242$cD.9018@pd7urf2no...
Even the official training material the RCMP trotted out in defense of their
officers, is inconsistent (by a BIG margin) with what the 4 officers did.
They didn't assess the situation, they ignored witnesses, they did not first
try to calm him, didn't properly warn him, etc etc etc etc etc.
Cops from outside Canada (not subject to peer discipline here, therefore -
free to speak the truth not the official party line) say the officers didn't
follow procedure.
Lawyers in Canada, familiar with RCMP training and confrontation protocol,
say the officers didn't follow procedure.
The only people saying the officers acted properly, are the RCMP
spokespeople. And they are proven liars. They lied about the number of
officers there, the number of people in the terminal, the amount of time and
effort they spent trying to calm Robert, and their efforts to revive him.
Dr. Freud
ignores the retired VPD remarks that 4 goons should never been involved.
He only believes what he wants to. It sounds like he's deliberately
baiting people here. The best thing to do is ignore him and run away
from those who share his abstract and bizzare reasoning skills. These
people are nothing but trouble.
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4742231F...@sympatico.ca...
Jim Davis
> We all agree, it wasn't the Taser that killed him.
Do we really know that for sure.
Quoted from CNN;
Since June 2001, more than 150 people have died in the United States
after being subdued with stun guns, according to Amnesty
International, which has called for police departments to suspend use
of the devices pending study of their possible risks.
Something to think about.
> It was the idiot police officers that didn't follow their training and RCMP
> protocol in dealing with suspects. It was tasing him twice, and 3 officers
> kneeling on his back and neck, not letting him breathe.
> It was the officers' refusal to administer First Aid.
>
> They let him die, they could have saved him after they rendered him
> unconscious.
>
> "Taser Lover" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
>
> news:nPn0j.11831$cD.3226@pd7urf2no...
>
>
>
> > Sorry people. It is illogical to believe in something without evidence.
> > It's true Richard Nixon and OJ Simpson did nothing wrong. The lack of
> > evidence proves this as does the fact the Tasers never killed any one.
>
> > Dziekanski's death not caused by Taser, says device maker
>
> > Taser International Inc. lashes out a media in statement released late
> > Friday, sends 60 legal letters demanding corrections to 'false and
> > misleading headlines'
>
> > Globe and Mail Update
>
> > The following statement, released late Friday, is attributed to Tom
> > Smith, founder and chairman of Arizona-based TASER International Inc.,
> > in response to the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport:
>
> > An amateur video of the incident that was released earlier this week has
> > received sensational coverage from the media with many reports drawing
> > an unsubstantiated and uninformed conclusion as to the cause of Mr.
> > Dziekanski's death.
>
> > This tragic incident appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody
> > deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police. Historically
> > medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are
> > attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical
> > discharge of the TASER. Specifically in Canada, while previous incidents
> > were widely reported in the media as 'TASER deaths,' the role of the
> > TASER device has been cleared in every case to date - including the
> > widely publicized Bagnell in-custody death in Vancouver where the TASER
> > device was cleared by an inquest jury.
>
> > Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate. The video of
> > the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was
> > continuing to fight well after the TASER application. This continuing
> > struggle could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the
> > TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His continuing
> > struggle is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death.
> > Further, the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a
> > potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania
> > such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and
> > violence toward inanimate objects.
>
> > We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have
> > irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the TASER device
> > and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death
> > before completion of the investigation. These sensationalistic media
> > reports completely ignore the earmark symptoms of excited delirium shown
> > in the video. TASER International is transmitting over 60 legal demand
> > letters requiring correction of these false and misleading headlines and
> > will take other actions as appropriate. These unsubstantiated, false
> > headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy
> > in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the
> > public at greater risk.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Rubbish
::
:: We all agree, it wasn't the Taser that killed him.
:
: Do we really know that for sure.
: Quoted from CNN;
:
: Since June 2001, more than 150 people have died in the United States
: after being subdued with stun guns, according to Amnesty
: International, which has called for police departments to suspend use
: of the devices pending study of their possible risks.
:
: Something to think about.
It was mentioned here before, it's not guns that kill people but people
who kill people. People are forgetting, largely because the
manufacturer of tasers says their use is safe AND because we trust the
cops to be using the right tools that these tasers are being routinely
used to as the first defense in the [name] of safety for the officers.
We erroneously assume the police know what is best for you and I.
People on radio/tv/email are praising law enforcement for doing a job
that nobody else wants to do. Therefore, using their philosphy and
logic, it's justifiable for the police to take any action THEY feel is
necessary to subdue someone, even murdering them. Afterall, the police
put their lives on the line every day. They should be allowed to do
WHATEVER they want, even if that "whatever" is criminal behavior. We
have to condone that behavior or action because these are cops. Thank
God only a minority of indivduals who have no logic feel this way.
Unfortunately, it will be those involved in the public inquiry that will
also condone the actions of these four cops.
As a result, not much will change, if anything when it comes to police
enforcement and the use of the taser. What will be recommended is
changes at YVR, but that's a federal issue not a local one.
Paul
"Taser Lover" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:nPn0j.11831$cD.3226@pd7urf2no...
I beg to differ as does the coroner
.http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.ht
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html
Getting tasered must be good for you, have someone shock you several times
and report back if you can.
Paul
Here repeating tasering, may cause death admitted by the company
http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en/2005/08/1177.shtml
sharx35
Bull fucking shit, you fucking lying asshole.
jazu
>> It was the idiot police officers that didn't follow their training and
>> RCMP
>> protocol in dealing with suspects. It was tasing him twice, and 3
>> officers
>> kneeling on his back and neck, not letting him breathe.
>
>
> Those officers acted exactly as they are trained to.
Jim Davis
> "Dave Smith" <adavidsm...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
He may not be lying. Maybe the Trainers are assholes.
sechumlib
WOW! The eloquent one is back.
Dave Smith
>
> Even the official training material the RCMP trotted out in defense of their
> officers, is inconsistent (by a BIG margin) with what the 4 officers did.
According to a CBS report, the RCMP manual says that An RCMP training
document on the use of force, obtained by CBC News, says "a person must
have the ability, intent and means to injure or kill someone before force
is used to restrain them.Dziekanski was reportedly wielding an office
stapler two metres from the nearest police officer when the Taser was
used."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/01/bc-tasertraining.html?ref=rss
The guy was pretty big, obviously very strong, and apparently violent. as
seen from the way he threw a chair at a plate glass window and trashed a
computer.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/01/bc-tasertraining.html?ref=rss
>
> They didn't assess the situation, they ignored witnesses, they did not first
> try to calm him, didn't properly warn him, etc etc etc etc etc.
What would they gather from talking to witnesses? People were telling them
that the guy spoke Russian. He didn't speak Russian. He spoke Polish. Did
they need to talk to witnesses to see that he was throwing furniture around
and had trashed a computer? That was probably obvious to them. They had
probably already been alerted to his violent behaviour by whoever it was
who called them and gave them enough detail that they send not one officer
but four. I sincerely doubt that they needed to spend time talking to
witnesses when the man was damaging property, especially when the witnesses
were offering misinformation, like telling them that he spoke only Russian.
>
> Cops from outside Canada (not subject to peer discipline here, therefore -
> free to speak the truth not the official party line) say the officers didn't
> follow procedure.
> Lawyers in Canada, familiar with RCMP training and confrontation protocol,
> say the officers didn't follow procedure.
Yes indeed.... like the quoted material above that betrays its own
inaccuracy?
>
J.Robertson
> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>>
>> Even the official training material the RCMP trotted out in defense of
>> their
>> officers, is inconsistent (by a BIG margin) with what the 4 officers did.
>
> According to a CBS report, the RCMP manual says that An RCMP training
> document on the use of force, obtained by CBC News, says "a person must
> have the ability, intent and means to injure or kill someone before force
> is used to restrain them.Dziekanski was reportedly wielding an office
> stapler two metres from the nearest police officer when the Taser was
> used."
>
So a calm man, with a stapler in his hand, who makes no dangerous or
threatening gestures towards 4 armed officers, somehow has intent and means
to injure or kill?
He did not. The police didn't follow their training/protocol. Not even
close.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/01/bc-tasertraining.html?ref=rss
>
> The guy was pretty big, obviously very strong, and apparently violent. as
> seen from the way he threw a chair at a plate glass window and trashed a
> computer.
>
'apparently violent' ?
Towards inanimate objects, some chairs, a window - Yes, absolutely.
Towards people, cops, bystanders - No way, absolutely not. If they spent
more than 24 seconds assessing the situation they would've seen that. They
were ready, one of the cops asked another if he could Tase him, before they
said one word to Robert.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/01/bc-tasertraining.html?ref=rss
>
>
>>
>> They didn't assess the situation, they ignored witnesses, they did not
>> first
>> try to calm him, didn't properly warn him, etc etc etc etc etc.
>
> What would they gather from talking to witnesses? People were telling them
> that the guy spoke Russian. He didn't speak Russian. He spoke Polish.
> Did
> they need to talk to witnesses to see that he was throwing furniture
> around
> and had trashed a computer? That was probably obvious to them. They had
> probably already been alerted to his violent behaviour by whoever it was
> who called them and gave them enough detail that they send not one officer
> but four. I sincerely doubt that they needed to spend time talking to
> witnesses when the man was damaging property, especially when the
> witnesses
> were offering misinformation, like telling them that he spoke only
> Russian.
>
Watch the video again, pay attention to his behaviour.
He was in no way violent, dangerous, or intimidating towards the police.
I don't believe you're being serious, you can't really believe he was a
threat to the police. He was nowhere near being threatening enough to
warrant being Tased as a FIRST OPTION.
There was no other way the cops could've dealt with him?
Basically you're saying even though he looks calm from our point of view,
Robert - from the front - was somehow so dangerous that the ONLY WAY THE
RCMP OFFICERS WOULD BE ABLE TO ESCAPE THAT SITUATION WITH THEIR LIVES WAS TO
TASE HIM, HAVE 2 OFFICERS JUMP ON HIS BACK AND ANOTHER PUT FULL BODY WEIGHT
ON HIS NECK, UNTIL HE WENT LIMP.
Do you REALLY believe they did the right thing? I think you're just being a
shit disturber.
>
>
>>
Jim Davis
> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>
> > Even the official training material the RCMP trotted out in defense of their
> > officers, is inconsistent (by a BIG margin) with what the 4 officers did.
>
> According to a CBS report, the RCMP manual says that An RCMP training
> document on the use of force, obtained by CBC News, says "a person must
> have the ability, intent and means to injure or kill someone before force
> is used to restrain them.Dziekanski was reportedly wielding an office
> stapler two metres from the nearest police officer when the Taser was
> used."
>
>
> The guy was pretty big, obviously very strong, and apparently violent. as
> seen from the way he threw a chair at a plate glass window and trashed a
> computer.
>
>
>
>
> > They didn't assess the situation, they ignored witnesses, they did not first
> > try to calm him, didn't properly warn him, etc etc etc etc etc.
>
> What would they gather from talking to witnesses? People were telling them
> that the guy spoke Russian. He didn't speak Russian. He spoke Polish.
Did they bother to try to find out?
>Did they need to talk to witnesses to see that he was throwing furniture around
>and had trashed a computer? That was probably obvious to them.
They didn't witness any violence.
>They had probably already been alerted to his violent behaviour by whoever it was
> who called them and gave them enough detail that they send not one officer
> but four.
They didn't see any violence but they took someone elses word for it,
and never asessed the situation for themselves.
> I sincerely doubt that they needed to spend time talking to
> witnesses when the man was damaging property, especially when the witnesses
> were offering misinformation, like telling them that he spoke only Russian.
They didn't spend the time talking to anyone. ZAP!!!!! and it was
all over. (Well, not quite. ZAPP AGAIN!!!) *Now* it's over. (and
in less than a minute)
Dave Smith
>
>
> 'apparently violent' ?
> Towards inanimate objects, some chairs, a window - Yes, absolutely.
> Towards people, cops, bystanders - No way, absolutely not.
I would suggest that they was he was throwing that stuff around, he was
acting out violently, and it's certainly not a far stretch to go from
throwing furniture and computers to acting out violently against people.
The police tried to communicate with him and he just waved them off and
walked away. He was not acting rationally.
> If they spent
> more than 24 seconds assessing the situation they would've seen that. They
> were ready, one of the cops asked another if he could Tase him, before they
> said one word to Robert.
They had likely been apprised of the situation by the people who called.
The evidence of his behaviour was there. They tried to communicate and he
just waved them off and walked away.
>
> > What would they gather from talking to witnesses? People were telling them
> > that the guy spoke Russian. He didn't speak Russian. He spoke Polish.
> > Did
> > they need to talk to witnesses to see that he was throwing furniture
> > around
> > and had trashed a computer? That was probably obvious to them. They had
> > probably already been alerted to his violent behaviour by whoever it was
> > who called them and gave them enough detail that they send not one officer
> > but four. I sincerely doubt that they needed to spend time talking to
> > witnesses when the man was damaging property, especially when the
> > witnesses
> > were offering misinformation, like telling them that he spoke only
> > Russian.
> >
>
> Watch the video again, pay attention to his behaviour.
> He was in no way violent, dangerous, or intimidating towards the police.
I have seen it several times, and I see all the signs of an unbalanced
person who is likely to assault.
>
> I don't believe you're being serious, you can't really believe he was a
> threat to the police. He was nowhere near being threatening enough to
> warrant being Tased as a FIRST OPTION.
They had to wait until he whipped the stapler at the head of one of them,
or get into a physical tussle with the guy? He was a big man, and
obviously quite strong.
> There was no other way the cops could've dealt with him?
I suppose they could have wasted time trying to communicate with him before
zapping him. The taser is not supposed to be lethal. It wasn't like they
went in to kill him.
>
> Basically you're saying even though he looks calm from our point of view,
Basically, I am saying that I don't know how you can interpret his
behaviour as being calm. The man was all worked up. He trashed a computer
and tossed a heavy chair at a plate glass window. When the police tried to
communicate with him he waved them off with a dismissive gesture and walked
away. He didn't get very far because the offices located themselves
strategically to block his way.
> Robert - from the front - was somehow so dangerous that the ONLY WAY THE
> RCMP OFFICERS WOULD BE ABLE TO ESCAPE THAT SITUATION WITH THEIR LIVES WAS TO
> TASE HIM, HAVE 2 OFFICERS JUMP ON HIS BACK AND ANOTHER PUT FULL BODY WEIGHT
> ON HIS NECK, UNTIL HE WENT LIMP.
First of all, it certainly is not clear in the video that anyone put full
body weight on the victim's neck. It looked more to me like the officer
had his knees on the guy's shoulder, which is standard procedure when a
person is being handcuffed after being taken down and physically
restrained. Secondly, they don't have to worry about escaping with their
lives. They don't have to risk having a chair thrown at them, a stapler
whipped at their heads, to be punched and kicked. There would not have been
3 or four officers on the guy if he hadn't been struggling so hard.
If what they wanted to do was to zap the hell out of someone they could
have just laid him lay on the ground and shock him over and over.
>
> Do you REALLY believe they did the right thing? I think you're just being a
> shit disturber.
I wasn't there either, but when I looked at the video I saw a frustrated
man acting out violently. Then I saw four police officers arrive and try to
communicate with the guy, but we waved them off and walked away, at which
time they used what they used was a non lethal tool to subdue a big, strong
and obviously violent man.
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
Then they better change the training!
Dave Smith
> >> It was the idiot police officers that didn't follow their training and RCMP
> >> protocol in dealing with suspects. It was tasing him twice, and 3 officers
> >> kneeling on his back and neck, not letting him breathe.
> >
> >
> > Those officers acted exactly as they are trained to.
>
> Then they better change the training!
Perhaps, but it works well most of the time. Maybe the thing that needs to
be changed is the way people respond to the police. Then there is the issue
of language, because I was under the impression that immigrants are
supposed to understand at least one of our two official languages, and this
guy couldn't understand enough to get out of the airport.
J.Robertson
> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>>
>>
>> 'apparently violent' ?
>> Towards inanimate objects, some chairs, a window - Yes, absolutely.
>> Towards people, cops, bystanders - No way, absolutely not.
>
>
> I would suggest that they was he was throwing that stuff around, he was
> acting out violently, and it's certainly not a far stretch to go from
> throwing furniture and computers to acting out violently against people.
> The police tried to communicate with him and he just waved them off and
> walked away. He was not acting rationally.
>
So from now on, if anyone ever is violent towards an chair or wall or
window, the police have the right to barge in and apply deadly force right
away.
It comes down to opinion. I see a man who poses no danger, is not even
close to being dangerous enough to deserve being Tased first, without ANY
OTHER attempt to deal with him.
You see a man who hadn't made ONE threatening gesture, but is still somehow
dangerous enough that the Police felt it was necessary to skip all the other
steps in their training/protocol.
Why are people so outraged, why is this an international incident,
international news, why has the Polish embassy gotten involved, why has the
BC AG received more correspondence on this issue than for any other issue in
their memory?
Over 90% of people polled saw the Police go in there like asshole cowboys.
If you see it differently, then there's not much we can argue about, except
that the officers did not follow their training or protocol. That is a
fact.
But, why did the RCMP lie so blatantly about almost all details of the
incident before the video was released if they were without fault?
Dave Smith
>
>
> Why are people so outraged, why is this an international incident,
> international news, why has the Polish embassy gotten involved, why has the
> BC AG received more correspondence on this issue than for any other issue in
> their memory?
>
> Over 90% of people polled saw the Police go in there like asshole cowboys.
> If you see it differently, then there's not much we can argue about, except
> that the officers did not follow their training or protocol. That is a
> fact.
>
> But, why did the RCMP lie so blatantly about almost all details of the
> incident before the video was released if they were without fault?
It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have
to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed
opinions influence people's views.
J.Robertson
>> Why are people so outraged, why is this an international incident,
>> international news, why has the Polish embassy gotten involved, why has
>> the
>> BC AG received more correspondence on this issue than for any other issue
>> in
>> their memory?
>>
>> ...why did the RCMP lie so blatantly about almost all details of the
>> incident before the video was released if they were without fault?
>
> It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have
> to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed
> opinions influence people's views.
I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do
to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he
made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more
straws, make something else up.
I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict
resolution and the use of force:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2dg-RMI&feature=related
"No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation
that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention."
ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers
acted on their own, as cowboys.
They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went
limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered
unconscious.
NDP Public Safety Critic Mike Farnsworth couldn't even speak after first
watching the tape, he was crying. Is that his mistake? Is he only being
influenced by other people's views?
Dave Smith
>
>
> > It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police have
> > to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and expressed
> > opinions influence people's views.
>
> I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to do
> to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent, he
> made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some more
> straws, make something else up.
Are you suggesting that this poor, frustrated immigrant who was trashing
the equipment in the area because he couldn't find his mommy suddenly
switched to calm mode? He just brushed off the officers with a wave of his
arms.
I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his
professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses
I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a
guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and experience.
>
> I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in conflict
> resolution and the use of force:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2dg-RMI&feature=related
>
> "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation
> that required some members who are properly trained in crisis intervention."
>
> ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers
> acted on their own, as cowboys.
hat is interesting, since your esteemed psychologist expect suggested that
this was not a case for tasering, that they should have called in said that
they could have used gestures. They did use gestures. He said that they
went quickly from " barking orders that he isn't going to be able to
understand anyway".
He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation
where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis
intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he
not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention?
> They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went
> limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered
> unconscious.
One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says on
the video, he was still struggling.
J.Robertson
> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>>
>>
>> > It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police
>> > have
>> > to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and
>> > expressed
>> > opinions influence people's views.
>>
>> I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to
>> do
>> to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent,
>> he
>> made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some
>> more
>> straws, make something else up.
>
>
> Are you suggesting that this poor, frustrated immigrant who was trashing
> the equipment in the area because he couldn't find his mommy suddenly
> switched to calm mode? He just brushed off the officers with a wave of
> his
> arms.
>
He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a
tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement.
He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand
what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called
threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've
viewed the video.
> I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his
> professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses
> I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a
> guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and
> experience.
>
I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels
you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective.
It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that
day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not.
You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they
absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went
limp.
>
>
>>
>> I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in
>> conflict
>> resolution and the use of force:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2dg-RMI&feature=related
>>
>> "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation
>> that required some members who are properly trained in crisis
>> intervention."
>>
>> ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers
>> acted on their own, as cowboys.
>
> He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation
> where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis
> intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he
> not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention?
>
You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit:
He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly,
they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within
24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP
officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the
Taser as they walked up to Robert.
Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a
suspect or a "crisis" ?
They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on
how to initially approach a situation?
What the fuck is your problem?
>
>> They were not trained to pile on top of his back and neck until he went
>> limp. They WERE trained to give first aid to a man they just rendered
>> unconscious.
>
> One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says
> on
> the video, he was still struggling.
Did you even read what I wrote? You're acting very dumb here Dave
Smith.
He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went
unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and
LET HIM DIE.
They made no attempt to check him in any way.
J.Robertson
"J.Robertson" <jr_...@canada.caaa> wrote in message
news:K7L0j.19215$fD.7461@pd7urf3no...
>
> "Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:47435F27...@sympatico.ca...
>> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > It is often a shock for people to witness what goes down when police
>>> > have
>>> > to subdue a violent person. It is not pretty. Sound bites and
>>> > expressed
>>> > opinions influence people's views.
>>>
>>> I totally agree, it is a shock for people to witness what police have to
>>> do
>>> to subdue a violent person. Robert, however, was nowhere near violent,
>>> he
>>> made no moves towards the officers. So please try again, grab at some
>>> more
>>> straws, make something else up.
>>
>>
By the way, the Feds announced a review of the RCMP's tasering protocol
today. The federal government feels the RCMP officers weren't justified in
using the Taser on Robert.
So, in summation, Dave Smith is right, over 90% of people polled are wrong,
the BC Govt is wrong, and the Feds are wrong.
Dave Smith
> He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a
> tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement.
I just played the video back. I didn't hear him say that.
> He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't understand
> what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called
> threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've
> viewed the video.
Sure. Four cops showed up and he stopped yelling and throwing things. The
fact remains that he had been acting out violently and they had every
reason to expect that he would be violent.
>
> > I am sure that the guy in the interview was willing to share his
> > professional views on conflict resolution. On the the most useless courses
> > I ever had on the job was with one on conflict resolution presented by a
> > guy who spent most of the time talking about his reputation and
> > experience.
> >
>
> I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels
> you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective.
> It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened that
> day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not.
Well aren't you a regular Einstein. I said that I had worked in law
enforcement and taken use of force training.
> You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they
> absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he went
> limp.
I never insisted any such thing. I said that they had reason to believe him
to be violent because he had been behaving violently, and that they reacted
according to use of force training.
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I'm sure you know better than a psychologist who trains Police in
> >> conflict
> >> resolution and the use of force:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmso2dg-RMI&feature=related
> >>
> >> "No, this was not a situation that required a Taser, this was a situation
> >> that required some members who are properly trained in crisis
> >> intervention."
> >>
> >> ALL RCMP OFFICERS are trained in 'crisis intervention'. These 4 officers
> >> acted on their own, as cowboys.
> >
>
> > He also said that this is not a case for tasering, that it was a situation
> > where they should have called in someone who trained in crisis
> > intervention. If this guy is the expert he is billed to be, why would he
> > not know that, as you claim, all RCMP are trained in crisis intervention?
> >
>
> You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit:
> He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly,
> they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him within
> 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP
> officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the
> Taser as they walked up to Robert.
Perhaps I had better dumb it down for you. You claimed that all RCMP are
trained in crisis intervention. I pointed out that your expert said they
should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention. They were
there to arrest someone who had been trashing the airport and the guy they
came to arrest resisted arrest.
> Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a
> suspect or a "crisis" ?
No. I thought I was pretty clear. You said all RCMP officers are trained in
crisis intervention. Your cited expert said they should have called in
someone who was trained in crisis intervention. In other words, your cited
expert didn't make the assumption that all RCMP are trained in crisis
intervention.
> They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance on
> how to initially approach a situation?
They had training in use of force and applied their training in this
situation when an obviously violent person, a big, strong violent person,
resisted arrest.
> What the fuck is your problem?
Well, I guess my problem is that so many people are whining that the RCMP
killed this guy without cause when they were following their training and
using a compliance tool that is generally safer than using batons, because
they are not required to get hurt subduing violent loonies.
> He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he went
> unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there and
> LET HIM DIE.
> They made no attempt to check him in any way.
You can't see that in the video. They did call for assistance, and in an
airport that should not be far away.
J.Robertson
> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>
>> He did calm down, he was calling "Police Police!" when he saw them, in a
>> tone of voice that suggests relief and excitement.
>
> I just played the video back. I didn't hear him say that.
Play it again, this time with the sound turned on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wPyIikmrro&feature=related
05:59.
>
>> He was in no way violent or threatening to the officers. I don't
>> understand
>> what behaviour you see him exhibiting that can possible be called
>> threatening or dangerous. Neither does over 90% of people polled, who've
>> viewed the video.
>
> Sure. Four cops showed up and he stopped yelling and throwing things. The
> fact remains that he had been acting out violently and they had every
> reason to expect that he would be violent.
>
If you expect a suspect to be violent, but he is instead calm and
submissive, in no way threatening, do you not revise your strategy in
dealing with him?
I guess it depends on if you HAD ALREADY MADE THE DECISION TO TASE THE
SUSPECT, as they did, or if you were still willing to use common sense and
judgement (ie. as they were trained to do.)
>> >
>>
>> I knew it, I knew you were a cop, or are a cop, or something that compels
>> you to overlook common sense and view the video from a cop's perspective.
>> It's not possible for you to give an honest appraisal of what happened
>> that
>> day. Your view is tainted whether you realize it or not.
>
>
> Well aren't you a regular Einstein. I said that I had worked in law
> enforcement and taken use of force training.
>
>
>> You still insist they had no other option available. You insist they
>> absolutely, 100% HAD TO taser him and pile on top of his back until he
>> went
>> limp.
>
> I never insisted any such thing. I said that they had reason to believe
> him
> to be violent because he had been behaving violently, and that they
> reacted
> according to use of force training.
>
Ok then, if they didn't absolutely, 100% HAVE TO tase him and pile on top,
then what else could they have done, Dave?
Oh, you mean they could've done what they were trained to do - assess the
situation and try to communicate?
They absolutely, 100%, did NOT react according to use of force training.
If they had reacted properly, according to training, then why has the
provincial and federal Govt's called for inquiries. Why are there 4 or 5
official inquiries into their actions?
>
>>
>>
>> You're missing his point, let me dumb it down a bit:
>> He was saying that if the officers had followed their training properly,
>> they would have used crisis intervention skills (ie. not tasing him
>> within
>> 24 seconds). In other words, it's too bad there weren't rational RCMP
>> officers on duty, ones that hadn't already made up their minds to use the
>> Taser as they walked up to Robert.
>
>
> Perhaps I had better dumb it down for you. You claimed that all RCMP are
> trained in crisis intervention. I pointed out that your expert said they
> should have called in someone trained in crisis intervention. They were
> there to arrest someone who had been trashing the airport and the guy they
> came to arrest resisted arrest.
>
You're not getting it, Dave.
One more time - the expert DID NOT SAY "they should have called in someone
trained in crisis intervention."
He said "this was a situation that required some members who are properly
trained in crisis intervention."
In other words, it's too bad the 4 officers there either weren't trained or
didn't follow their training properly.
Get it?
Dave?
>
>> Are you saying that RCMP officers have no training in how to handle a
>> suspect or a "crisis" ?
>
> No. I thought I was pretty clear. You said all RCMP officers are trained
> in
> crisis intervention. Your cited expert said they should have called in
> someone who was trained in crisis intervention. In other words, your cited
> expert didn't make the assumption that all RCMP are trained in crisis
> intervention.
>
>
>> They are left out there to figure things out for themselves - no guidance
>> on
>> how to initially approach a situation?
>
> They had training in use of force and applied their training in this
> situation when an obviously violent person, a big, strong violent person,
> resisted arrest.
>
Your statement highlights a fundamental difference between Police, and the
rest of the country.
The public sees a man struggling to breathe after twice being zapped with
50,000 volts, and having 2 (200+lb?) officers pile on his back, and another
on his neck.
The police see a man who should just lay still and be a good citizen, as
he's slipping into unconsciousness.
Police are not supposed to tase someone twice, and then pile on top of that
person for this very reason. Ya can't breathe. Get it?
>
>> What the fuck is your problem?
>
> Well, I guess my problem is that so many people are whining that the RCMP
> killed this guy without cause when they were following their training and
> using a compliance tool that is generally safer than using batons, because
> they are not required to get hurt subduing violent loonies.
>
They were NOT following their training.
>> He was struggling (to breathe) and guess what happened after that - he
>> went
>> unconscious. And then the RCMP officers did NOTHING. They stood there
>> and
>> LET HIM DIE.
>> They made no attempt to check him in any way.
>
> You can't see that in the video. They did call for assistance, and in an
> airport that should not be far away.
So that's it?
They just tased him twice (against training) and piled on top of him, knelt
on his neck (against training) until he went limp. Call an ambulance? No
attempt to check him needed?
You cops are fucking brutal. Absolutely disgusting. Do you have ANY
feeling or compassion for regular citizens? If you make someone lose
consciousness - is your only response "call an ambulance" ?
Why do cops even get first aid training if they don't need to ever use it.
Greg Carr
grapple arrest him. CPR was not applied. John Les has called for a public
inquiry which sounds great but if you recall the Bingogate public inquiry
never finished thus never released a report. This could be a PR exercise. In
the Province today one of the columnists reported that his fellow cabinet
ministers are rumoured to be very unhappy with how the Solicitor-General has
handled things. One columnist is reporting that police are afraid for their
safety and that cruisers have been pelted with eggs because ppl are angry
over this incident. I haven't seen any news reports of that. Has anyone
else? Also Les has decided to review the idea of getting a United Metro
Police Force to replace all the local and RCMP ones. He was against the idea
two weeks ago.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=e309f159-3ff6-4fe8-9df0-36a707412af2
Aftermath of Dziekanski tragedy has touched raw nerve in public
Alan Ferguson
The Province
Tuesday, November 20, 2007
It's a long time since I've known so many people so genuinely angry as they
are over the death of Robert Dziekanski.
I'm talking about people who aren't normally in the habit of whipping
themselves into a fever pitch over a perceived injustice.
This goes deeper. It touches a raw nerve in the collective consciousness.
And it has left many folks wondering about the people they appoint to act on
their behalf.
The feeling goes beyond mere emotion.
Sure, plenty of tears have been shed. Understandably so.
The Polish immigrant's very public death at Vancouver airport can't be
watched without gut-wrenching pain.
And even though Paul Pritchard's amateur video is only part of the story, it
hasn't stopped some people from deciding who are the villains.
What we're hearing about now -- police cruisers pelted with eggs, officers
afraid for their safety -- does us no credit. But the rare, deep-seated
anger is aimed, not at particular individuals, but at a sequence of events
ordinary people find incomprehensible.
They're not interested in a witchhunt based on hysterical assumptions about
trigger-happy cops. They'll wait for the facts, provided they are not too
long coming.
But what they do want is to be told that the fatal flaws in the "system"
that failed Dziekanski are being dealt with in an immediate, meaningful way.
And, quite frankly, they're seeing precious little evidence of that.
As the weeks roll by, what they're mostly witnessing is a mind-boggling lack
of initiative.
It's worse. People in positions of power scurry into hiding, seeking either
to divert attention from themselves, or else to clam up, further feeding
public unease.
Police pile one investigation on top of another, as if adding manpower alone
will confirm their good intentions. Someone should tell them no one is
fooled any more by the charade of police investigating police.
But the real problem -- what's at the root of the growing anguish in the
community -- is the absence of authoritative leadership.
A prime example is Stockwell Day, federal minister of public safety. Hasn't
it dawned on him that the Dziekanski affair is a humiliating embarrassment
for Canada? Yet all he's done is waffle on about Tasers.
Liberal Leader Stephane Dion hadn't even bothered to watch the video the
rest of the world is talking about.
Hundreds of people were involved in this tragedy in one way or another --
RCMP, customs agents, immigration officials, security guards and others.
They should be made to stand up and be counted. Instead, we're watching them
duck for cover.
It's the continuing official indifference to the damaging global
consequences of those fatal hours at Vancouver airport that Canadians
everywhere find so profoundly disturbing.
And it's why they're angry at the shuffling hesitancy to explain them.
© The Vancouver Province 2007
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4742231F...@sympatico.ca...
> "J.Robertson" wrote:
>>
>> We all agree, it wasn't the Taser that killed him.
>>
Greg Carr
employee at the airport that day but they weren't aware of the situation.
While he had a stapler he wasn't close enough to strike him with it. They
should have waited a minute or two or until he attacked them.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47423B83...@sympatico.ca...
J.Robertson
"Greg Carr" <greg...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:zhS0j.19988$fD.19941@pd7urf3no...
>I think not. They didn't spend any time accessing the situation nor did
>they grapple arrest him. CPR was not applied. John Les has called for a
>public inquiry which sounds great but if you recall the Bingogate public
>inquiry never finished thus never released a report. This could be a PR
>exercise. In the Province today one of the columnists reported that his
>fellow cabinet ministers are rumoured to be very unhappy with how the
>Solicitor-General has handled things. One columnist is reporting that
>police are afraid for their safety and that cruisers have been pelted with
>eggs because ppl are angry over this incident. I haven't seen any news
>reports of that. Has anyone else? Also Les has decided to review the idea
>of getting a United Metro Police Force to replace all the local and RCMP
>ones. He was against the idea two weeks ago.
>
Today on the Bill Good program he talked about the public's reaction.
Basically he said that on any issue he's seen in the past, the public
opinion and calls to him are divided 50/50.
On this issue, however, he says almost EVERYONE is very critical of the
Police and feels the attack on Robert was unjustified, the only people
supporting the Police actions are Police officers, or family members of an
officer.
Today, Firefighters at YVR are mad they weren't called to perform CPR, as he
could have been saved.
http://cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=7428218912&rem=79872&red=80121823aPBIny&wids=242&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm
I'm disgusted that the Police didn't try CPR or ANYTHING else. They just
stood there as he lay unconscious and died. They could have saved him.
Dave Smith
>
> There was a story in a newspaper today that their was a Polish speaking
> employee at the airport that day but they weren't aware of the situation.
> While he had a stapler he wasn't close enough to strike him with it. They
> should have waited a minute or two or until he attacked them.
>
Russian.
Jim Davis
Better do some research before you answer. The airport employee spoke
both Polish and Russian.
http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=219130
Greg Carr
How hard would it be for a officer to hold up a cell phone and get someone
at 911 or Mosaic to identify the language. As well why wasn't the
translation services phone working (which a female witness tried to use) or
the translation services desk staffed.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47459A42...@sympatico.ca...
Greg Carr
language? The Lower Mainland has thousands of ppl who don't speak either
official language haven't you noticed?
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47431C3D...@sympatico.ca...
Greg Carr
see what happened. A biker I met once told me about getting tasered in the
chest and he basically laughed at them. He was on meth though.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Paul" <upy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rsq0j.14675$9F1....@read1.cgocable.net...
>
> "Taser Lover" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:nPn0j.11831$cD.3226@pd7urf2no...
>> Sorry people. It is illogical to believe in something without evidence.
>> It's true Richard Nixon and OJ Simpson did nothing wrong. The lack of
>> evidence proves this as does the fact the Tasers never killed any one.
>>
>> Dziekanski's death not caused by Taser, says device maker
>>
>> Taser International Inc. lashes out a media in statement released late
>> Friday, sends 60 legal letters demanding corrections to 'false and
>> misleading headlines'
>>
>> Globe and Mail Update
>>
>> The following statement, released late Friday, is attributed to Tom
>> Smith, founder and chairman of Arizona-based TASER International Inc.,
>> in response to the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport:
>>
>> An amateur video of the incident that was released earlier this week has
>> received sensational coverage from the media with many reports drawing
>> an unsubstantiated and uninformed conclusion as to the cause of Mr.
>> Dziekanski's death.
>>
>> This tragic incident appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody
>> deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police. Historically
>> medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are
>> attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical
>> discharge of the TASER. Specifically in Canada, while previous incidents
>> were widely reported in the media as 'TASER deaths,' the role of the
>> TASER device has been cleared in every case to date - including the
>> widely publicized Bagnell in-custody death in Vancouver where the TASER
>> device was cleared by an inquest jury.
>>
>> Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate. The video of
>> the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was
>> continuing to fight well after the TASER application. This continuing
>> struggle could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the
>> TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His continuing
>> struggle is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death.
>> Further, the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a
>> potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania
>> such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and
>> violence toward inanimate objects.
>>
>> We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have
>> irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the TASER device
>> and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death
>> before completion of the investigation. These sensationalistic media
>> reports completely ignore the earmark symptoms of excited delirium shown
>> in the video. TASER International is transmitting over 60 legal demand
>> letters requiring correction of these false and misleading headlines and
>> will take other actions as appropriate. These unsubstantiated, false
>> headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy
>> in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the
>> public at greater risk.
>>
>
> I beg to differ as does the coroner
> .http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.ht
> http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html
>
> Getting tasered must be good for you, have someone shock you several
> times and report back if you can.
>
>
>
Greg Carr
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Paul" <upy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7uq0j.15425$xa2....@read2.cgocable.net...
> Here repeating tasering, may cause death admitted by the company
> http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en/2005/08/1177.shtml
>
>
>
Greg Carr
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:474342E2...@sympatico.ca...
Greg Carr
clothing torn or their hair messed up.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47435F27...@sympatico.ca...
Jim Davis
> I tried the url but nothing came up.
Try it again. It does work, and very interesting.
http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en/2005/08/1177.shtml
Greg Carr
would say if he suddenly saw a group of policemen.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47438883...@sympatico.ca...
Greg Carr
public report of their view of what happened. I think the total lack of
leadership shown by the RCMP and CBSA in this incident has also riled up a
lot of ppl.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"J.Robertson" <jr_...@canada.caaa> wrote in message
news:TwM0j.19646$fD.17492@pd7urf3no...
Jim Davis
> That was the lamest struggle I have ever seen. The police didn't get their
> clothing torn or their hair messed up.
>
> > One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it says
> > on
> > the video, he was still struggling.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
There was no struggling there. He was cunvulsing from the shock,
which is a normal reaction.
Smells like Poutine
"Jim Davis" <sky.d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a060e9c8-b914-4fc0...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
He may have been struggling - to breathe.
Officers are trained to, after tasing someone, get him upright. The
officers didn't follow their training in deciding to use force, and they
didn't use their training when 3 of them kneeled on his back and neck, and
they didn't use their CPR training.
Jim Davis
<123_oui_oui_...@canada.tabarnac> wrote:
> "Jim Davis" <sky.danc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
*and*, they didn't know they were being video'd.
Dave Smith
>
> The helpful witnesses can be excused because they are ordinary civilians.
Someone complained that the police never stopped to question the witnesses.
The witnesses were offering the misinformation that the guy spoke only
Russian.
> How hard would it be for a officer to hold up a cell phone and get someone
> at 911 or Mosaic to identify the language. As well why wasn't the
> translation services phone working (which a female witness tried to use) or
> the translation services desk staffed.
I have to admit that would never have occurred to me. I guess it did not
occur to them either. I suppose they could have done that after they
arrested him and escorted him to their office. They weren't there to help
ease his transition into Canadian society. They were there to arrest and
remove a violent person who had been trashing airport property.
Dave Smith
>
> Huh?? Where did you get the idea that immigrants need to know an official
> language? The Lower Mainland has thousands of ppl who don't speak either
> official language haven't you noticed?
It is a requirement under the Citizenship Act that a person have an
adequate knowledge of on of the two official languages. Granted he was just
arriving as an immigrant and perhaps not planning on becoming a citizen.
Dave Smith
Greg Carr wrote:
>
> That was the lamest struggle I have ever seen. The police didn't get their
> clothing torn or their hair messed up.
How many broken bones, teeth or cuts and scratches do you think they have
to acquire before they can use force?
Dave Smith
>
>
> He may have been struggling - to breathe.
>
> Officers are trained to, after tasing someone, get him upright. The
> officers didn't follow their training in deciding to use force, and they
> didn't use their training when 3 of them kneeled on his back and neck, and
> they didn't use their CPR training.
They should get him upright after he has been handcuffed. He was struggling
while they were trying to cuff him. From what I saw, only one was kneeling
on his shoulder, and it is is proper procedure to to that.
Smells like Poutine
Try and spin it however you want.
The fact is the officers didn't do what they were trained to do.
They are not trained to tase first, without trying anything else. They are
not trained to taser someone twice and keep him on his stomach, and kneel on
his back and neck.
> He was struggling
> while they were trying to cuff him.
He was trying to breathe, idiot. See how well you do after getting tased
twice, with no warning, and have 3 huge cops kneel on your back and neck.
Dave Smith
>
>
> Try and spin it however you want.
> The fact is the officers didn't do what they were trained to do.
>
> They are not trained to tase first, without trying anything else. They are
> not trained to taser someone twice and keep him on his stomach, and kneel on
> his back and neck.
Call it spin if you want, but I have been through use of force training.
The use of force continuum, which you apparently are not aware off,
indicates taser in that situation.
>
> > He was struggling
> > while they were trying to cuff him.
>
> He was trying to breathe, idiot. See how well you do after getting tased
> twice, with no warning, and have 3 huge cops kneel on your back and neck.
After one officer got up, and while two are kneeling on the ground, and one
officer is kneeling on his shoulder..... about 6:67 on the video, Pritchard
says "Wow. He is still fighting them off." You are wrong about 3 large cops
kneeling on his back, and the eye witnesses expresses that the guy is
fighting them off, not struggling for breath. It is not I who is spinning
it.
Jim Davis
<123_oui_oui_...@canada.tabarnac> wrote:
> "Dave Smith" <adavidsm...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
You're talking to a brick wall, and probibly the ony one who is
defending them. (Andwith the same lame statements over and over
again.)
Smells like Poutine
> Smells like Poutine wrote:
>>
>>
>> Try and spin it however you want.
>> The fact is the officers didn't do what they were trained to do.
>>
>> They are not trained to tase first, without trying anything else. They
>> are
>> not trained to taser someone twice and keep him on his stomach, and kneel
>> on
>> his back and neck.
>
> Call it spin if you want, but I have been through use of force training.
> The use of force continuum, which you apparently are not aware off,
> indicates taser in that situation.
Officers are not supposed to attack a man who is not a threat.
He wasn't even offering passive resistance.
>>
>> > He was struggling
>> > while they were trying to cuff him.
>>
>> He was trying to breathe, idiot. See how well you do after getting tased
>> twice, with no warning, and have 3 huge cops kneel on your back and neck.
>
> After one officer got up, and while two are kneeling on the ground, and
> one
> officer is kneeling on his shoulder..... about 6:67 on the video,
> Pritchard
> says "Wow. He is still fighting them off." You are wrong about 3 large
> cops
> kneeling on his back, and the eye witnesses expresses that the guy is
> fighting them off, not struggling for breath. It is not I who is spinning
> it.
Again, you would rather he just lay still and slip into unconsciousness?
Would you?
Bullshit. If you'd just been tased twice, and had 3 large officers kneeling
on your back and neck, would you struggle to breathe, or would you lay
still?
Dave Smith
> > Call it spin if you want, but I have been through use of force training.
> > The use of force continuum, which you apparently are not aware off,
> > indicates taser in that situation.
>
> Officers are not supposed to attack a man who is not a threat.
> He wasn't even offering passive resistance.
If he was not a threat, why were the police called?
>
> > says "Wow. He is still fighting them off." You are wrong about 3 large
> > cops
> > kneeling on his back, and the eye witnesses expresses that the guy is
> > fighting them off, not struggling for breath. It is not I who is spinning
> > it.
>
> Again, you would rather he just lay still and slip into unconsciousness?
> Would you?
Pritchard did not comment that the man was struggling for breath. His
comment was "Woe. He is still fighting them off."
> Bullshit. If you'd just been tased twice, and had 3 large officers kneeling
> on your back and neck, would you struggle to breathe, or would you lay
> still?
Most people lay after being zapped with a taser.
Smells like Poutine
>
>> Bullshit. If you'd just been tased twice, and had 3 large officers
>> kneeling
>> on your back and neck, would you struggle to breathe, or would you lay
>> still?
>
> Most people lay after being zapped with a taser.
That's not what I asked.
Would YOU lay still if you'd been zapped twice and had 3 officers on top of
your back and neck, and you couldn't breathe.
The public sees a man fighting for his life.
You cops see a man fighting.
You are displaying the same lack of common sense and narrow view that the 4
murderer RCMP officers did that day.
sharx35
"Smells like Poutine" <123_oui...@canada.tabarnac> wrote in message
news:7Hn1j.21788$cD.13896@pd7urf2no...
99% of the time, in the past, I have supported the police in such incidents.
However, in the case being discussed, I believe that the authorities erred
in most aspects, e.g. at the time, the cover-up and the present.
>
>
Daniel MacKay
Every person who gets tasered, dies.
Dave Smith
>
>
> That's not what I asked.
> Would YOU lay still if you'd been zapped twice and had 3 officers on top of
> your back and neck, and you couldn't breathe.
>
> The public sees a man fighting for his life.
> You cops see a man fighting.
The public sees that? I would dispute that. The man who was taking the
video commented "Wow. He is still fighting..."
Jim Davis
Smells like Poutine
Oh my, that's so clever Dave. Did your official Police training include
how to avoid answering a simple, direct question?
I'll take your refusal to answer as a "no".
If you were tasered twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on your back and
neck, you'd do just as Robert did - struggle to breathe.
It's not called resisting arrest, it's called "trying to breathe". Do you
get it?
You smug, arrogant cops are all the same in this. You refuse to allow the
possibility of ANY wrongdoing here. The 4 RCMP officers did everything
perfectly, there were no mistakes made at all, it was all Robert's fault, he
couldn't breathe? Too bad.
Dave Smith
>
>
> >> That's not what I asked.
> >> Would YOU lay still if you'd been zapped twice and had 3 officers on top
> >> of
> >> your back and neck, and you couldn't breathe.
> >>
> >> The public sees a man fighting for his life.
> >> You cops see a man fighting.
> >
> > The public sees that? I would dispute that. The man who was taking the
> > video commented "Wow. He is still fighting..."
>
> Oh my, that's so clever Dave. Did your official Police training include
> how to avoid answering a simple, direct question?
>
> I'll take your refusal to answer as a "no".
Hopefully, it taught me not to fall for stupid word traps.
I can't honestly say because my behaviour has never been so bizarre that
the police have come to arrest me and had to use a taser on me.
>
> If you were tasered twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on your back and
> neck, you'd do just as Robert did - struggle to breathe.
>
> It's not called resisting arrest, it's called "trying to breathe". Do you
> get it?
What you seem not to get, since you are relying on a particular video, and
a part in the video where the view is obstructed by other people and
barriers, is that the person who was there taping it and viewing it live
said quite clearly that the guy was still fighting the cops, not that he
was fighting to breathe.
>
> You smug, arrogant cops are all the same in this. You refuse to allow the
> possibility of ANY wrongdoing here.
That is not accurate. I was refuting the claims made here so many times
that the man was not violent, because he clearly was, and that the officers
did not follow their training, because they very clearly were. We have a
lot of people who have never taken the training saying that they did not
act according to the way they were trained to, and people who have taken
the same training accepting that they acted exactly the way they are
trained. I would suggest that a person who has been through the training
would be a better judge of how closely their actions followed their
training than someone who has never been through it and who does not even
know about the use of force continuum and where taser is recommended.
> The 4 RCMP officers did everything
> perfectly, there were no mistakes made at all, it was all Robert's fault, he
> couldn't breathe? Too bad.
People make mistakes. I don't know how many times these same four officers
have had to respond to a situation like this. It is likely that they
quickly formulated a plan based on the information they had, to get this
guy under control, handcuffed and out of there. You should also bear in
mind that this was not a situation where a single officer was dispatched,
or even two, but apparently warranted the dispatching of four officers.
The victim was a big guy, obviously very strong, and very agitated.
Arrange to take the course and tell me where the strayed from procedures.
Smells like Poutine
> Smells like Poutine wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> That's not what I asked.
>> >> Would YOU lay still if you'd been zapped twice and had 3 officers on
>> >> top
>> >> of
>> >> your back and neck, and you couldn't breathe.
>> >>
>> >> The public sees a man fighting for his life.
>> >> You cops see a man fighting.
>> >
>> > The public sees that? I would dispute that. The man who was taking the
>> > video commented "Wow. He is still fighting..."
>>
>> Oh my, that's so clever Dave. Did your official Police training include
>> how to avoid answering a simple, direct question?
>>
>> I'll take your refusal to answer as a "no".
>
> Hopefully, it taught me not to fall for stupid word traps.
> I can't honestly say because my behaviour has never been so bizarre that
> the police have come to arrest me and had to use a taser on me.
>
That's far from a stupid word trap. It's a direct question that you refuse
to answer.
If you had just been tased twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on you in a
manner that made you stop breathing, would you struggle or would you not
struggle?
Dave Smith, an RCMP officer, you're such a blatant liar it's not even funny.
>
>>
>> If you were tasered twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on your back and
>> neck, you'd do just as Robert did - struggle to breathe.
>>
>> It's not called resisting arrest, it's called "trying to breathe". Do
>> you
>> get it?
>
> What you seem not to get, since you are relying on a particular video, and
> a part in the video where the view is obstructed by other people and
> barriers, is that the person who was there taping it and viewing it live
> said quite clearly that the guy was still fighting the cops, not that he
> was fighting to breathe.
>
>
How convenient, when the video shows clear evidence of something that is
damaging to the lies that the RCMP are trying to get the public to buy, you
say "you can't trust the video" but when a bystander says "he's fighting
them" you take that as gospel when it's obvious Robert is only struggling to
breathe.
Why is it obvious that he's struggling to breathe? Answer: because he went
unconscious right afterwards.
Keep trying Dave, you're not even close.
roight!
"Taser Lover" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:nPn0j.11831$cD.3226@pd7urf2no...
> Sorry people. It is illogical to believe in something without evidence.
> It's true Richard Nixon and OJ Simpson did nothing wrong. The lack of
> evidence proves this as does the fact the Tasers never killed any one.
>
> Dziekanski's death not caused by Taser, says device maker
>
> Taser International Inc. lashes out a media in statement released late
> Friday, sends 60 legal letters demanding corrections to 'false and
> misleading headlines'
>
> Globe and Mail Update
>
> The following statement, released late Friday, is attributed to Tom
> Smith, founder and chairman of Arizona-based TASER International Inc.,
> in response to the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport:
>
> An amateur video of the incident that was released earlier this week has
> received sensational coverage from the media with many reports drawing
> an unsubstantiated and uninformed conclusion as to the cause of Mr.
> Dziekanski's death.
>
> This tragic incident appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody
> deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police. Historically
> medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are
> attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical
> discharge of the TASER. Specifically in Canada, while previous incidents
> were widely reported in the media as 'TASER deaths,' the role of the
> TASER device has been cleared in every case to date – including the
> widely publicized Bagnell in-custody death in Vancouver where the TASER
> device was cleared by an inquest jury.
>
> Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate. The video of
> the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was
> continuing to fight well after the TASER application. This continuing
> struggle could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the
> TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His continuing
> struggle is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death.
> Further, the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a
> potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania
> such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and
> violence toward inanimate objects.
>
> We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have
> irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the TASER device
> and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death
> before completion of the investigation. These sensationalistic media
> reports completely ignore the earmark symptoms of excited delirium shown
> in the video. TASER International is transmitting over 60 legal demand
> letters requiring correction of these false and misleading headlines and
> will take other actions as appropriate. These unsubstantiated, false
> headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy
> in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the
> public at greater risk.
>
roight!
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4745D49B...@sympatico.ca...
Dave Smith
> That's far from a stupid word trap. It's a direct question that you refuse
> to answer.
> If you had just been tased twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on you in a
> manner that made you stop breathing, would you struggle or would you not
> struggle?
It ranks up there with "When did you stop beating your wife?".
> Dave Smith, an RCMP officer, you're such a blatant liar it's not even funny.
An RCMP officer? I am not, never was.
> > What you seem not to get, since you are relying on a particular video, and
> > a part in the video where the view is obstructed by other people and
> > barriers, is that the person who was there taping it and viewing it live
> > said quite clearly that the guy was still fighting the cops, not that he
> > was fighting to breathe.
> >
> >
>
> How convenient, when the video shows clear evidence of something that is
> damaging to the lies that the RCMP are trying to get the public to buy, you
> say "you can't trust the video" but when a bystander says "he's fighting
> them" you take that as gospel when it's obvious Robert is only struggling to
> breathe.
Why did you put quotes around "you can't trust the video". Those were not
my words, not even a paraphrase of what I said. Is your argument so weak
that you have to lie about what I said? I said that you were counting on
a point on the video where the view of the victim and the officers is
obscured by a security guard standing between the camera and the incident
and by a physical barrier. There is nothing obscured in the cameraman's
comment. While the image of the struggle is poorly lit and partly
obstructed, the witness, who was watching it live commented that he was
still fighting them off, not fighting for breath.
Smells like Poutine
> Smells like Poutine wrote:
>
>> That's far from a stupid word trap. It's a direct question that you
>> refuse
>> to answer.
>> If you had just been tased twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on you in a
>> manner that made you stop breathing, would you struggle or would you not
>> struggle?
>
> It ranks up there with "When did you stop beating your wife?".
>
You can't even answer a simple question. :)
If you had 3 officers kneeling on your back and neck, would you lay still,
or would you struggle to breathe.
I can't believe you're so scared to answer that question, you're a pathetic
coward Dave Smith.
>> Dave Smith, an RCMP officer, you're such a blatant liar it's not even
>> funny.
>
>
> Why did you put quotes around "you can't trust the video". Those were not
> my words, not even a paraphrase of what I said. Is your argument so weak
> that you have to lie about what I said? I said that you were counting on
> a point on the video where the view of the victim and the officers is
> obscured by a security guard standing between the camera and the incident
> and by a physical barrier. There is nothing obscured in the cameraman's
> comment. While the image of the struggle is poorly lit and partly
> obstructed, the witness, who was watching it live commented that he was
> still fighting them off, not fighting for breath.
Okay, you're just being ridiculous here, I put quotes around that because I
was paraphrasing your statement:
> since you are relying on a particular video, and
> a part in the video where the view is obstructed by other people and
> barriers,
I'm saying we all see Robert with 3 officers kneeling on him, we see him
fighting, we all see him stop moving and know he went unconscious right
afterwards, and later died. What is there to argue?
You would have us hear someone's statement "he's fighting them" and put more
stock in that, than the FACT that we know he was struggling to breathe. I
can't beleive you're disputing that. You still think he wanted to fight the
officers? You believe he was trying to fight and injure 4 armed men, as big
as he was, instead of struggling to breathe?
How is someone - at the time - supposed to know if someone is fighting with
officers, or fighting to breathe? You can't know that, we know it now
though, because went limp and later DIED. Get it dumbass?
It's been over a month since this happened. The RCMP were very willing to
LIE their faces off to the public right afterwards. They've had a whole
month to try and come up with an explanation of why they attacked a man who
showed no violent or dangerous behaviour to 4 officers - all just as big as
he is - in an empty room.
You know why they haven't come up with an explanation, and why they keep
saying "wait until the inquest" and hoping the outrage will die off? Take a
big guess, they have no explanation.
Remember how badly the RCMP lied about this, they wouldn't have had to lie
so badly if they weren't caught making such bad mistakes that they HAD TO
lie that badly. About FIVE different aspects of the incident.
RJ
> An RCMP officer? I am not, never was.
I'm guessing shopping mall security guard.
Dave Smith
In which case you would be wrong again.
Greg Carr
languages. I think it should be but it isn't and why the deceased failed to
learn English in the yrs before he came here is beyond me. If you have a
cite that shows different post it.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4745D442...@sympatico.ca...
Dave Smith
>
> No it isn't a requirement to be a citizen to know either of the official
> languages. I think it should be but it isn't and why the deceased failed to
> learn English in the yrs before he came here is beyond me. If you have a
> cite that shows different post it.
You're amazing. I thought that it was a requirement, and when you disputed
it, I looked it up. I even told you that it was in the Citizenship Act.
But you don't think it is, so rather than take a few seconds to look it up
yourself, you simply dispute it. And you want a cite
Try Google and the key words Canada citizenship language requirement ...
http://www.google.ca/webhp?hl=en
> > It is a requirement under the Citizenship Act that a person have an
> > adequate knowledge of on of the two official languages.
Wow.... look at that. I had said that it is in the Citizenship Act...
You don't even know a cite when you see one.
And you think you are bright enough and well enough informed to debate
issues?
downtown Jack
> Greg Carr wrote:
>>
>> No it isn't a requirement to be a citizen to know either of the official
>> languages. I think it should be but it isn't and why the deceased failed
>> to
>> learn English in the yrs before he came here is beyond me. If you have a
>> cite that shows different post it.
>
>
> You're amazing. I thought that it was a requirement, and when you disputed
> it, I looked it up. I even told you that it was in the Citizenship Act.
>
> But you don't think it is, so rather than take a few seconds to look it up
> yourself, you simply dispute it. And you want a cite
>
Why would anyone just blindly trust a cop?
You guys aren't exactly known for being open and always telling the truth.
TopPoster
speaking whatever language you like
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47482F47...@sympatico.ca...
Dave Smith
>
> "Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:47482F47...@sympatico.ca...
> > Greg Carr wrote:
> >>
> >> No it isn't a requirement to be a citizen to know either of the official
> >> languages. I think it should be but it isn't and why the deceased failed
> >> to
> >> learn English in the yrs before he came here is beyond me. If you have a
> >> cite that shows different post it.
> >
> >
> > You're amazing. I thought that it was a requirement, and when you disputed
> > it, I looked it up. I even told you that it was in the Citizenship Act.
> >
> > But you don't think it is, so rather than take a few seconds to look it up
> > yourself, you simply dispute it. And you want a cite
> >
>
> Why would anyone just blindly trust a cop?
> You guys aren't exactly known for being open and always telling the truth.
I cited the Citizenship Act. I always figure that if you aren't sure about
something you can easily Google it. Having cited the legislation, I figured
that even an idiot could manage to find it on their own. Apparently I was
wrong.
Dave Smith
TopPoster wrote:
>
> That is to become a citizen, you can live in Canada as a landed immigrant
> speaking whatever language you like
>
That's true. A lot of people seem to think that we should accommodate
immigrants, and I agree to some extent. I don't think that it is asking too
much to have them learn enough English to find their way through an
airport.
downtown Jack
You know, all kidding aside, I absolutely agree with you on this. I
strongly fault Mr Dziekanski for not learning even basic English before
moving here.
Maybe there are exceptions to be made with refugees, but I don't believe
someone who doesn't speak English well (in BC, at least) can properly
function and contribute to society.
Greg Carr
"Dave Smith" <adavi...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:47482F47...@sympatico.ca...
> Greg Carr wrote:
>>
>> No it isn't a requirement to be a citizen to know either of the official
>> languages. I think it should be but it isn't and why the deceased failed
>> to
>> learn English in the yrs before he came here is beyond me. If you have a
>> cite that shows different post it.
>
>
> You're amazing. I thought that it was a requirement, and when you disputed
> it, I looked it up. I even told you that it was in the Citizenship Act.
And you are too incompetnet to post the cite or are lying.
>
> But you don't think it is, so rather than take a few seconds to look it up
> yourself, you simply dispute it. And you want a cite
Correct.
>
> Try Google and the key words Canada citizenship language requirement ...
>
>
> http://www.google.ca/webhp?hl=en
I don't think so.
>
>
>
>> > It is a requirement under the Citizenship Act that a person have an
>> > adequate knowledge of on of the two official languages.
I notice you failed to type "one" correctly. What an idiot.
>
>
>
> Wow.... look at that. I had said that it is in the Citizenship Act...
> You don't even know a cite when you see one.
Whatever. You a liar and an idiot.
> And you think you are bright enough and well enough informed to debate
> issues?
Not going to with you. Kf.
Greg Carr
anyone who lives here can attest to. Congrats for not getting kill-filed
yet.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"TopPoster" <TopP...@Poster.Com> wrote in message
news:db_1j.75$d92.1...@news.sisna.com...
Greg Carr
Interesting and relevant. The autopsy on the deceased at YVR didn't show
electrocution as the cause of death. I still hasn't been determined. Seems
Stockwell and the public have forced the CBSA to release their version of
the events that have garnered international publicity.
CBSA to release Dziekanski death report Monday
Vancouver Sun
Saturday, November 24, 2007
VANCOUVER - The Canada Border Services Agency will release its report Monday
into the death of a Polish man after he was hit twice with a Taser and
restrained by four RCMP officers at the Vancouver International Airport.
The internal report was ordered by Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day
after Robert Dziekanski, 40, died at the airport Oct. 14, about 10 hours
after he arrived in Canada from Poland.
Since the incident, the CBSA has faced criticism over how the Polish
immigrant wandered alone in a secure area for 10 hours without being helped.
And last week, a graphic video showing Dziekanski's death, shot by Victoria
resident Paul Pritchard, prompted an international outcry over police
conduct and the use of Tasers after it was made public.
Alain Jolicoeur, CBSA's president, and other senior officials "will hold a
technical briefing to release an internal report and to outline the actions
to be taken following the events at Vancouver International Airport," a news
release said today.
In addition to the CBSA report, several other government groups are looking
into the death, including the RCMP and the commissioner for complaints
against the RCMP.
Also a B.C. coroner's inquest has been set for May. The inquest jury cannot
make any findings that carry criminal culpability, but jurors can offer
recommendations to prevent similar deaths, Terry Foster, communications
officer for the B.C. Coroner's Service, has said.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=36f40b2d-ffec-453e-91f0-8cb95f93188a&k=71036
John Les has also announced a public inquiry and hopefully unlike the
Bingogate one it will actually release a report to the public.
National class action suit against TASER, Int.
author: Debbie Russell
National Class Action Suit--possible growing list of Police
Depts/plaintiffs--against Taser, In. based on false advertising. Meanwhile,
Taser, Int. admits death can occur - while saying they've known all along. ;
now that first coronor rules taser as primary cause of death. Austin
beginning to recognize it's first death - a year ago.
National Class Action lawsuit:
http://www.law.com/jsp/printerfriendly.jsp?c=LawArticle&t=PrinterFriendlyArticle&cid=1121763921063
and more 'surprises' outlined in this week's Chronicle, Naked City-she
does make note of our year-old Taser death:
Multiple tases may kill
BY JORDAN SMITH
Repeated Taser shocks "may impair" breathing and may lead to death,
according to a new safety bulletin published by Arizona-based Taser
International Inc., the leading manufacturer of electro-shock weapons used
by nearly 7,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide. In a June 28 bulletin,
the company warned that "repeated, prolonged and/or continuous exposure to
the Taser may cause strong muscle contractions that may impair breathing and
respiration, particularly when the [weapon's metal] probes are placed across
the chest or diaphragm," The Arizona Republic reported on July 30. In
previous training manuals, however, "Taser . told police to use repeated
shocks to control a suspect," the daily reported. The bulletin also warns
that multiple shocks and corresponding muscle contractions could cause
injury to "tissues, organs, bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, nerves,
joints and stress/compression fractures to bones," reports the Atlanta
Journal-Constitution. Nonetheless, Tom Smith, Taser's founder and president,
told the J-C that the warning is "nothing new" and is merely a regular
training update. "We are just being more specific than we were before,"
Smith said.
Nonetheless, the warning was posted the same day a Chicago, Ill.,
medical examiner ruled that the February death of 54-year-old Ronald Hasse
was an electrocution caused by two Taser jolts delivered by a Chicago police
sergeant. The ruling marks the first time that a medical examiner has listed
a jolt from the electro-shock weapon as the primary cause of death.
According to the Chicago Sun-Times, Cook Co. Deputy Medical Examiner Scott
Denton reported that Hasse received a five-second jolt, followed by a
second, 57-second charge. Hasse was intoxicated on methamphetamine at the
time, the daily reported, but it was the Taser, not the drugs, that
ultimately caused his death - the Taser, Denton said, was what "pushed
[Hasse] over the edge." The Sun-Times further reported that Denton plans to
meet with Chicago PD officials this week to "suggest" that Tasers not be
used on people who "are acting psychotic or appear to be under the influence
of drugs." In fact, many of the people who've died after being shocked by
Tasers have been determined to have had drugs in their system - including
the Austin case of Abel Perez, who was tased several times and later died.
The autopsy listed "accidental overdose" as the cause of death.
source url:
http://www.law.com/jsp/printerfriendly.jsp?c=LawArticle&t=PrinterFriendlyArticle&cid=1121763921063
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Jim Davis" <sky.d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e91736c0-740f-48d9...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 9:51 am, "Greg Carr" <gregpc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> I tried the url but nothing came up.
>
> Try it again. It does work, and very interesting.
> http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en/2005/08/1177.shtml
>
Greg Carr
hrs. Mr.Pritchard trying to be a good citizen co-operated. He ended up
having to threaten a lawsuit to eventually get the video back. Ir onically
he was coming back from a police state where the police can't be scrutinized
by the media and public but thankfully here we can.
According to CKNW the CBSA has twice booked space for a press conference
about their explanation about what happened and decided to cancel. This lack
of leadership deprives the public and media of info and costs the taxpayers
money.
http://www.cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=74281090912&rem=80083&red=801109023aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm
Just like Montebello the authorities can't even lie properly. Just like
Giuliano Zaccardelli who lied under oath to Parliament the authorities in
this case being the RCMP and CBSA refuse to tell the truth and decide to
lie. Unlike Zaccardelli they refuse to resign. Hopefully the head of CBSA
will lose employment over this matter.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Jim Davis" <sky.d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f6b5a444-526f-4cd9...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 11:39 am, "Smells like Poutine"
> <123_oui_oui_...@canada.tabarnac> wrote:
>> "Jim Davis" <sky.danc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:a060e9c8-b914-4fc0...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 22, 9:54 am, "Greg Carr" <gregpc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> >> That was the lamest struggle I have ever seen. The police didn't get
>> >> their
>> >> clothing torn or their hair messed up.
>>
>> >> > One problem there.... her wasn't unconscious. As the guy filming it
>> >> > says
>> >> > on
>> >> > the video, he was still struggling.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > There was no struggling there. He was cunvulsing from the shock,
>> > which is a normal reaction.
>>
>> He may have been struggling - to breathe.
>>
>> Officers are trained to, after tasing someone, get him upright. The
>> officers didn't follow their training in deciding to use force, and they
>> didn't use their training when 3 of them kneeled on his back and neck,
>> and
>> they didn't use their CPR training.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> *and*, they didn't know they were being video'd.
Greg Carr
panic. His breathing was heavy and obscenities came out of his mouth. He
then wrote in his report that I was the one highly agitated even though I
was calmly lying against a tree. If a police officer lies on his report he
should be in another profession. Perhaps sewing.
--
Read and obey the Bible. Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, He rose
again and walked the earth. We are awaiting the Third Coming aka The Day Of
Judgment.
Sheep are extremely fluffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4NEbU_YkZw#gAhmzK_HQgc
"Smells like Poutine" <123_oui...@canada.tabarnac> wrote in message
news:7Hn1j.21788$cD.13896@pd7urf2no...
>
LadyBr...@gmail.com
> > > The use of force continuum, which you apparently are not aware off,
> > > indicates taser in that situation.
>
> > Officers are not supposed to attack a man who is not a threat.
> > He wasn't even offering passive resistance.
>
> If he was not a threat, why were the police called?
>
>
>
> > > says "Wow. He is still fighting them off." You are wrong about 3 large
> > > cops
> > > kneeling on his back, and the eye witnesses expresses that the guy is
> > > fighting them off, not struggling for breath. It is not I who is spinning
> > > it.
>
> > Again, you would rather he just lay still and slip into unconsciousness?
> > Would you?
>
> Pritchard did not comment that the man was struggling for breath. His
> comment was "Woe. He is still fighting them off."
>
> > Bullshit. If you'd just been tased twice, and had 3 large officers kneeling
> > on your back and neck, would you struggle to breathe, or would you lay
> > still?
>
> Most people lay after being zapped with a taser.
I have seen DOZENS of these videos. DOZENS, and no they do NOT lay
still after being ZAPPED, quite the contrary. They are afraid to die
and try to RUN. It's fight or flight, to be sure, but mostly it's
FLIGHT they are after. Only most of the videos I have seen, the
people have been pepper sprayed first, and they cannot find a way OUT,
so they flail even more.
You're falling for the propaganda of TASER INTERNATIONAL and the
police forces who WANT to use what have already been categorized as
Weapons of terror by international bodies since 1985. What transpired
in courts in 2005, is WELL KNOWN to governments, police forces and
mental health services. They all knew better than to use this on this
poor man.
As I say, what a welcome to CANADA! package he got. Get outta yer
head those of you who can't see what is going on here. They are trying
to make these weapons socially acceptable: It's NOT working.. We
ensure that animals are treated better than this.
The poor guy -- they had him in desensitized, uncaring hands in that
airport for so many hours he had a PANIC ATTACK and then the RCMP
comes in and murders him. REAL NICE. Some, if not all, responsibility
for what happened fall on the FEDS who didn't ensure he was safe after
he left border patrol custody as he was clearly upset by THEN. SHAME
ON THEM ALL.
LadyBr...@gmail.com
Yes, but that is about taking CITIZENSHIP, and even that requirement
is gone if you are over 55 when you apply.
The fact is, he was merely landing or exercising his VISA, which seems
pretty clear! The Border entry people really must be looked at even
though they aren't in the video, and the press is, as usual,
irresponsible, as they are not bringing that issue up. He had been IN
CUSTODY for many, MANY hours prior AND someone who spoke Polish WAS
working on the airport. Again, For SHAME.
LadyBr...@gmail.com
>
> > > > It is a requirement under the Citizenship Act that a person have an
> > > > adequate knowledge of on of the two official languages.
>
I am NOT talking about you, Dave; I am talking about the IDIOTS.
They think that they are Lawyers, when they are not. One can safely
come to the world's most ethnically diverse community even YET .. you
don't need to speak English, and certainly not when your mother worked
seven years to buy you a ticket to come and see her!!
People want to see this whole thing with one lens or another. But this
is a MULTIDISCIPLINARY issue . there are many, many factors involved.
Hence a real true inquest, with many point of view being heard,
recommendations made and minority dissenting opinions noted must come
out.
It is THAT important.
Dave, don't let the idiots push you into a box; you're NOT a coroner
and neither are they.
Canada can learn from this - how to train its police forces, how to
treat people coming in (and boy! Does Vancouver need that before
2010!! remember Atlanta and the set up man accused of bombing when he
was TOTALLY innocent??), how to find decent emergency procedures in
place -- all sorts of issues pending in Vancouver particularly could
get a full airing before something even MORE dreadful happens.
There are people who do not intend to let the Olympics go off without
demonstrations unless something is done about several pending issues -
native sovereignty, climate change, poverty, the coming North American
Union, many other things -- and IF Canada cannot take care of
"business" without resorting to weapons of torture, chemical weapons
(pepper spray and worse chemical inhalants), corruption and graft on
the part of its officials, many people are NOT going to come to
Canada. They simply won't. I ain't for "saving the system", but I
think all of this can be used as a very educational force for social
change for citizens and visitors.
Canuck57
Seems to be a pattern in these. Anyone over 35 does not fair well with
them.
Maybe take the CEO and VPs of the company who makes them and give them a
triple shot after dousing them with salt water to simulate stress/sweat.
"Greg Carr" <greg...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:La12j.39810$fD.12491@pd7urf3no...
downtown Jack
"Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> wrote in message
news:eMg2j.45127$PE.17306@pd7urf1no...
>
>
> Seems to be a pattern in these. Anyone over 35 does not fair well with
> them.
>
> Maybe take the CEO and VPs of the company who makes them and give them a
> triple shot after dousing them with salt water to simulate stress/sweat.
>
I know what you're getting at, the guy in Chilliwack was only 29, though,
and looked very strong and healthy. He was beaten pretty badly, I don't
pretend the Taser caused his death, but I'm sure it didn't help. Bottom
line is - they're not safe enough to be classed as non-deadly force, in my
opinion.
The Federal and BC politicians have made strong statements that they will
not even consider looking at Taser use. Maybe I've been paying too much
attention to the blatant corruption and lobbyists buying politicians in the
US, but this reeks of an envelope full of cash passed along at a quiet
meeting.
I'll leave it at that, Taser INC scares me, they're like Scientology in the
way they defend their brand.
cuddly wuddly
<LadyBr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e0b31034-47bb-4cc7...@w34g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 5:27 pm, Dave Smith <adavidsm...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> > > says "Wow. He is still fighting them off." You are wrong about 3
>> > > large
>> > > cops
>> > > kneeling on his back, and the eye witnesses expresses that the guy is
>> > > fighting them off, not struggling for breath. It is not I who is
>> > > spinning
>> > > it.
>>
>> > Again, you would rather he just lay still and slip into
>> > unconsciousness?
>> > Would you?
>>
>> Pritchard did not comment that the man was struggling for breath. His
>> comment was "Woe. He is still fighting them off."
>>
>> > Bullshit. If you'd just been tased twice, and had 3 large officers
>> > kneeling
>> > on your back and neck, would you struggle to breathe, or would you lay
>> > still?
>>
>> Most people lay after being zapped with a taser.
>
> I have seen DOZENS of these videos. DOZENS, and no they do NOT lay
> still after being ZAPPED, quite the contrary. They are afraid to die
> and try to RUN. It's fight or flight, to be sure, but mostly it's
> FLIGHT they are after. Only most of the videos I have seen, the
> people have been pepper sprayed first, and they cannot find a way OUT,
> so they flail even more.
>
That man, Dave Smith, is a Police officer himself and is not interested in
an open discussion. He gets painted into a corner, on a specific issue, and
then refuses to answer simple questions.
He insists, in a roundabout way, that Robert was struggling after being
tasered and that is proof that he was a violent and dangerous person.
Someone asked Dave Smith if he would lay still after being tasered twice,
and had officers kneeling on his back and neck in a way that was preventing
him from breathing properly. But Dave thought that was a trick question,
and wouldn't answer.
I won't forget how 4 large, armed officers murdered an innocent man. I
won't forget how the RCMP lied to try and cover-up their mistakes.
.
Geo. Harper
> I know what you're getting at, the guy in Chilliwack was only 29, though,
> and looked very strong and healthy. He was beaten pretty badly, I don't
> pretend the Taser caused his death, but I'm sure it didn't help. Bottom
> line is - they're not safe enough to be classed as non-deadly force, in my
> opinion.
>
> The Federal and BC politicians have made strong statements that they will
> not even consider looking at Taser use. Maybe I've been paying too much
> attention to the blatant corruption and lobbyists buying politicians in the
> US, but this reeks of an envelope full of cash passed along at a quiet
> meeting.
>
> I'll leave it at that, Taser INC scares me, they're like Scientology in the
> way they defend their brand.
>
>
ones allowed to use a taser are supervisors, who are called in when the going
gets rough. The force wanted to deploy them to the general force over the
next few years but I guess they'll be delaying that.
The supervisors are specially trained in the use (when to use it, when not to
use it and are mature, tenured cops with negotiation skills). Apparently the
RCMP's don't receive such training nor do all of them have the history to deal
with problems.
Dave Smith
>
>
> That man, Dave Smith, is a Police officer himself and is not interested in
> an open discussion.
I am not a police officer, and never was. You on the other hand, are a
name shifting twit.
> He gets painted into a corner, on a specific issue, and
> then refuses to answer simple questions.
It was a stupid question, and I did answer it.
> He insists, in a roundabout way, that Robert was struggling after being
> tasered and that is proof that he was a violent and dangerous person.
He was acting violently before the arrival of the police officers, therefor
treated as a violent person, and if you watched the video you would have
heard Pritchard comment that he was still fighting with the police.
> Someone asked Dave Smith if he would lay still after being tasered twice,
> and had officers kneeling on his back and neck in a way that was preventing
> him from breathing properly. But Dave thought that was a trick question,
> and wouldn't answer.
It was a stupid question.
Timmy Tuttle vs. (NWO KOOOKS)
> Seems to be a pattern in these. Anyone over 35 does not fair well with
> them.
>
> Maybe take the CEO and VPs of the company who makes them and give them a
> triple shot after dousing them with salt water to simulate stress/sweat.
Sound good, you should send them a letter and state if it doesn't kill them
being shocked at least 10 times for say one minute till a minute and a half
at a time, then you'll agree with them!
Jim Davis
> cuddly wuddly wrote:
>
> > That man, Dave Smith, is a Police officer himself and is not interested in
> > an open discussion.
>
> I am not a police officer, and never was. You on the other hand, are a
> name shifting twit.
>
> > He gets painted into a corner, on a specific issue, and
> > then refuses to answer simple questions.
>
> It was a stupid question, and I did answer it.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.
>
> > He insists, in a roundabout way, that Robert was struggling after being
> > tasered and that is proof that he was a violent and dangerous person.
>
> He was acting violently before the arrival of the police officers, therefor
> treated as a violent person, and if you watched the video you would have
> heard Pritchard comment that he was still fighting with the police.
You seem to put all your faith in what Pritchard says.
Here's some more about Pritchard.
> > Someone asked Dave Smith if he would lay still after being tasered twice,
> > and had officers kneeling on his back and neck in a way that was preventing
> > him from breathing properly. But Dave thought that was a trick question,
> > and wouldn't answer.
>
> It was a stupid question.
See above.
>
>
>
> > I won't forget how 4 large, armed officers murdered an innocent man. I
> > won't forget how the RCMP lied to try and cover-up their mistakes.
>
Robert McKenzie
"Timmy Tuttle vs. (NWO KOOOKS)"
<45.8.693.Timmy..Tuttle.and.the.New..World.Order.Kooks..@Freedom.forever.GC.JL>
wrote in message news:2Ek2j.9631$Ji6.5477@edtnps89...
Would be a good test to try on Mark Hansel first.
No sense in doing something if there's any doubt it might not work properly.
Mark would be a good test. If it works, he'll yell louder than he does now.
jazu
>> protocol in dealing with suspects. It was tasing him twice, and 3
>> officers
>> kneeling on his back and neck, not letting him breathe.
>
>
> Those officers acted exactly as they are trained to.
I wish that some day they will show on you how they are trained.
jazu
>> While he had a stapler he wasn't close enough to strike him with it. They
>> should have waited a minute or two or until he attacked them.
>>
> Of course not.... those helpful witnesses said that the man spoke only
> Russian.
What ta fuck does it make a difference what language did he speak and what
witnesses have said.
These 4 pigs kilkled innocent scared man.
jazu
> therefor
> treated as a violent person, and if you watched the video you would have
> heard Pritchard comment that he was still fighting with the police.
Pritchard was wrong in his comment. And why Robert was strogling someone
else has answered to you already.
Now you can tell to your employer Cpl. Dale Carr, that this is a lost case
to your corrupted organization.
You are sweeping under the rug, but the rug is transparent.
jazu
> I'll take your refusal to answer as a "no".
>
> If you were tasered twice, and had 3 officers kneeling on your back and
> neck, you'd do just as Robert did - struggle to breathe.
>
> It's not called resisting arrest, it's called "trying to breathe". Do you
> get it?
>
No, he doesn't. He never will. He works for Cpl. Dale Carr.
Thanks God idiots like him is not too many