Just home from 3 months in Europe/Egypt. My thoughts.....
Bobby McGee
You all were so helpful with helping us plan our trip that I want to
let you know how it all went. 3 months in the south of France
(Perigord, Provence, Cote D'Azur) then through Italy (Venice, Tuscany
and all it's towns, Rome, Amalfi Coast) and then Greece (islands of
Paros, Santorini, Mykonos, Delos and Hydra, Athens, Delphi etc), then
back to Rome for a few days and then off to Egypt for 2 weeks and then
back to Rome and then a train to Paris to wind things down. I kept a
journal everyday and today I put together these few lists. Thought some
of you might like to read them. Sorry if they're a tad. a LOT, long but
after 3 mostly glorious months on the road you have a bit to say. By
the way my wife's name is Line (pronounced Lynn). Enjoy.......
Top 10 best momuents;
10. Abu El-Haggag mosque (the one that is built right into Luxor
Temple, Egypt. We had a private tour and felt real priveleged. Everyone
in there gave us huge smiles)
9. Medeival town of Sarlat (in the Perigord region of France. Absol
amazing!)
8. Garnier Opera House (Paris. Total and complete opulence. Someday I
will return and see an opera there. It looks like one of life's 'musts"
And the Chagall ceiling? Stunning!!!))
7. Philae Temple (Luxor, Egypt. This was underwater for 70 years and
was taken apart and completely moved. The temple of Isis. Fantastic)
6. Valley of the Kings / Temple of Hatshepsut (this one's a tie. Both
in Aswan, Egypt. The tombs in the valley of the Kings are still sooooo
alive with color. They will take your breath away. And Hatshepsut for
it's size and long ramps and the incredible stories on the walls.)
5. Karnak temple (Aswan. It just seems to go on and on. The Apostle
Hall with it's columns are one of the grandest things I have ever seen.
You feel so small. The obelisk of Queen Hatshepsut is unforgettable.
This temple takes at least a full day. And yes, Ramses 2 is well
represented! And if you can make a point of seeing the Sound and Light
show. It could have been tacky but it is anything but. It will move you
I promise)
4. Piazza San Marco/Basilica San Marco ( Venice, Italy. The Piazza,
which is knee deep in water early in the morning dries out and becomes
one of this planet's great meeting places. Or places to people watch.
Or places to just hang out. Wonderful!. And on this trip we have seen a
hundred churches and this one is by FAR the best. St Peters in Rome
beats it for size but San Marco has more soul than all the others put
together. And if you go pay to go up to the balcony cause the view of
the Piazza is something you will never forget. And plus you get to see
the original 4 horses in the museum. Those who have been there know
what I mean. Ahhhh Venice!)
3. Michelangelo's DAVID (We waited 2 1/2 hours in the hot Florence sun
to get in and it would be worth twice that. Art fan or not sometime in
your life try and make it to Florence to see him. Now I like the ladies
but I am willing to admit that he is absolutely BEAUTIFUL. The calm and
yet still "on guard" look on his face is perfect. HE is perfect. How
many pieces of art will make people gasp? He does.
2. and 1. Sistine Chapel / Vatican & Abu Simbel (there is no way I
could pick one of these. No words I could write could describe these 2
works of absol genuis. In history there have been geniuses far beyone
anything we can comprehend and it is an honor to be in their presence.
I still get goosebumps when I think of them. I am wondering what else
in life I can see that will match these 2. It'll be
hard.........................
Also special mentions for Delos, the Greek island that is the
"birthplace of Apollo" and it's amazing ruins. The Chateau Puymartin in
France where we had the best guide EVER who loved this castle with all
his heart and it showed. And of course the museums; Chagall and Matisse
in Nice, France; Archeological museum in Athens, The Vatican Museum,
the Cairo museum (which we went BACK to cause we did not get enough of
it the first day), The Louvre, etc etc etc. All of them were
unforgettable. And the King Tut exhibit? HOLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Top 5 places I'd live:
5. Positano (on the Amalfi Coast in Italy. Built on a hillside with
amazing views and nice beaches with blue, blue water. And great
cappucinos!)
4. Mykonos/Hydra (2 Greek Islands. Mykonos for it's little streets,
real nice people, and AMAZING beaches. Super Paradise beach is one of
the best I have ever seen. Silky sand and the water is the blue/green
of a beautiful girl's eyes. I am tellin you, it really is Super
Paradise.
And Hydra for the fact that there are no cars allowed. It is calm and
peaceful and plus, I would love to own my own donkey! :-)
3. Avignon ( In Provence, France. It is a medeival, walled city and
oozes hipness, and life, and people who like a good time. I can see
myself sitting in cafes in those tiny streets all day all hopped up on
espressos :-)
2. A Tuscan hillside (Italy. This is the very definition of peace. We
had a B&B for a week on the top of a hill near the beautiful old town
of San Dalmazio. We ate and drank and walked and fell in love with
Tuscany. We woke up every morning to the smell of flowers, fresh air
and rosemary. We'll go back one day for sure.)
1. PARIS!!!!!!! (this one is SO easy. We have seen lots of cities this
trip and none even come close to the magic of Paris. You can walk and
walk and everywhere you go there is something
spectacular. I feel like a part of me has always been a Parisian. I
dream of throwing everything away and getting a loft in Le Marais. Or
Montmarte. If you see one place in your lifetime, please let it be
Paris. And don't let people tell you that the Parisians are pricks. 95%
of everyone we met were wondeful. We were there the last week of
November and even had the luck of a snowy day. Paris in the snow,
perfect. May you all visit the Louvre and then walk out of it's doors
and down through the Jardins de Tuilierie, past Place de la Concorde,
with the obelisk taken from Luxor Temple in Egypt, then up the Champs
Elysees to the Arc de Triomphe. Is there a better walk on this planet?
If there is I would like to know about it.
Paris is magic!!!!!
The one place I would never EVER live:
CAIRO. Offer me a multi million dollar penthouse there and I would turn
it down without even thinking about it. It is frighteningly poor and
dirty and by that I mean piles of rotting garbage. I don't know what I
was expecting there but it sure as hell was not THAT. It was a big
shock. And the icing on the cake was on the last day I was sitting on
the balcony of our "5 star" hotel that was an absolute dump and a van
stopped on the busy street right in front of me. The driver gets out,
pulls up his jalaba and takes a dump right there on the side of the
road. Picks up some of that rotting garbage and wipes himself and gets
back in the van and drives off. I try and draw the line of not living
in cities where people shit in the streets :-) And the driving? Oh My
God!!!!! There are no rules other than you go wherever you want and you
honk all the way. I thought Rome was crazy but Cairo makes it look like
a Sunday drive through the country. It is incredible that on this same
planet there is the calm of Tuscany and the mayhem and noise and filth
of Cairo. When you travel you see it all. Boy do you see it all :-)
Top 10 best moments;
10. Writing in my journal in the shadow of Abu Simbel (I even rubbed
some of it's dirt into the pages. Pretty cool.............)
9. When we were on the train from Luxor to Cairo, in our sleeping car,
reaching my hand down from the top bunk to hold hands with my wife.
Sounds corny but I was just so happy she was there with me.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :-)
8. Swimming in the crystal clear water on Mykonos. (Sometimes
backpacking can be exhausting and these days are soooooo good for the
soul. Same goes for Positano)
7. Booting around the Greek Islands on rented scooters and 4-wheelers.
No helmets, the wind in our hair.
Is there a better way to see an island? I don't think so.
6. Snow in Paris. (as if it isn't already beautiful enough.........)
5. Camel rides through the desert of Aswan , up past an abandoned
monastery in the middle of nowhere, to the other ride through the
little villages of Luxor. It was worth it just to see the huge grin on
my wife's face. She was in her glory. I was too. We came home from
Egypt with, no fewer than 10 camel statues. :-)
4. Both my wife and I standing on the balcony of our Cairo hotel the
first morning at 4:45 am listening to the mosque right next door and
it's haunting music calling the people to prayer.
Man you realize you are a long way from home. This kind of stuff never
ever leaves you.
3. Heading towards the Vatican after dark the first night in Rome and
getting lost. Up ahead I see these huge columns and I wonder what they
could be. We walk through them and we are standing smack dab in St
Peter's Square. We both stood there speechless. (this feeling happens
so much when you travel. You come over the hill and there right in
front of you is Abu Simbel. You come through a narrow opening and you
are in the courtyard in Sienna, (Italy. the place where they have that
horse race). You are actually standing at the famous hairpin and in the
tunnel of the Monaco Grand prix. You attend Sunday mass at the Vatican
and the Pope enters the Piazza. I could go on and
on.....................)
2. On the train to Salerno, Italy when my wife and I each took a
headphone and listened to From a Distance, our wedding song. I know, I
know, soppy but such a beautiful moment. Again, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
:-)
1. With my heart pounding as if it would explode, standing in the
Sistine Chapel with the hand of God and Adam right above me. It is the
most beautiful indoor spot in the whole world ( I took a picture of my
feet to remember that I actually stood there and just missed getting
caught by a guard who gave me the evil eye :-)
Some things I learned dring the trip;
I will never be able to go to India
I'm glad Ramses 2 was a megalomaniac
Line has a "thing" about camels :-)
"All Bran" bars work miracles..... :-)
I hated the heights of the Pisa Tower but I loved the hot air balloon
over the Valley of the Kings
Line cries when she talks about the poverty in Egypt
But on the other hand she will even resort to pushing a nun out of the
way to get to the Vatican museum faster ( I was there! :-)
When I snap the F word is my favorite
3 months for me is a bit too long. For my wife it is just a beginning
Line likes taking pictures..............
The new Pope has a nice smile
I can drive a car, a manual car, through Florence
Michelangelo is in a class by himself
When I have to push and shove I can keep up with the best of them (sad
but true)
Line makes other people smile
The bus ride along the Amalfi Coast is one shit-scary ride
We both HATE squid
We both love the sound of the mosques as they call the Muslims to
prayer
Never again to stay at the Siag Pyramids hotel
Every country has amazing beer
In Egypt we are walking dollar signs to them.
I can literally sob when I meet someone extraordinary
Line has a special face that she makes when she writes postcards :-)
The Athens airport has AMAZING food.
The Stazione Termini (in Rome) and surrounding streets is a travellers
paradise.
Holding Line's hand calms me like nothing else
I like sleeping cars on trains
I was born to live in Paris
French computer keyboards do not have the letters in the same place.
AHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Line loves Chagall
To put up with me Line deserves a medal. Or sainthood :-)
I can go 3 months without tv (who would've thought????) but 3 months
without a guitar was a killer
The Cairo museum needs a coat of pain, new lighting and a good dusting
( it does not do justice to the monuments it contains. They deserve
better)
Gate 5 is in between gates 4 and 6 (inside joke :-)
The scariest place on this earth is the Luxor train station at 5 am.
Line is the best traveller in the whole world
There is no place like home.
Padraig Breathnach
>Hi Guys
>You all were so helpful with helping us plan our trip that I want to
>let you know how it all went...
Lovely account, thanks.
Can I borrow your wife?
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
bar...@cix.compulink.co.uk
padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie (Padraig Breathnach) wrote:
> *From:* Padraig Breathnach <padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie>
> *Date:* Sat, 03 Dec 2005 21:24:14 +0000
>
> "Bobby McGee" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi Guys
> >You all were so helpful with helping us plan our trip that I want to
> >let you know how it all went...
>
> Lovely account, thanks.
Seconded.
----------------------------------------------
The poster formerly known as bar...@cix.compulink.co.uk.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Hi Guys
> You all were so helpful with helping us plan our trip that I want to
> let you know how it all went. 3 months in the south of France
> (Perigord, Provence, Cote D'Azur) then through Italy (Venice, Tuscany
> and all it's towns, Rome, Amalfi Coast) and then Greece (islands of
> Paros, Santorini, Mykonos, Delos and Hydra, Athens, Delphi etc), then
> back to Rome for a few days and then off to Egypt for 2 weeks and then
> back to Rome and then a train to Paris to wind things down. I kept a
> journal everyday and today I put together these few lists. Thought some
> of you might like to read them. Sorry if they're a tad. a LOT, long but
> after 3 mostly glorious months on the road you have a bit to say. By
> the way my wife's name is Line (pronounced Lynn). Enjoy.......
It sounds as though you both had a fantastic time, and will have many
great memories to savour. I agree with the others that it's a nice
report, but I have a few curmudgeonly comments I'm afraid, and they
don't really pertain to Europe. Your description of Cairo makes me
wonder where outside the 'west' you've been before? It's a pretty modern
city as that part of the world goes. Yes, it has rubbish in the streets,
stray barking dogs, and the occasional sewer smell. Not unsual, and by
no means terrible there. Also, Cairo has some incredible hotels. We
stayed at the Ramses Hilton, which was very luxurious, but there are
better, and you can get reasonable deals to stay in them. You may have
been ripped off in your choice, I'm afraid. Also, no mention of the
Pyramids at Giza. Did it make such little an impression? I say this,
only because from my point of view nothing else, and I mean nothing,
constructed by humankind has impressed me as much. (Slave labour
notwithstanding- it is awesome in the true sense of the word.) If you
felt the Museum of Antiquities was in need of repair, I'm surprised you
didn't comment on the museums in Greece, many of which are mostly in a
similar state.
That quibble aside, I'm glad you enjoyed your trip- I've been almost
everywhere you mentioned (only place I didn't get to is Abu Simbel, as
at the time you couldn't travel by land) and I resonate very much indeed
with your impressions.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer http://soundjunction.org
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
prestwich tesco 24h offy <this_address...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bobby McGee <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys
> > You all were so helpful with helping us plan our trip that I want to
> > let you know how it all went. 3 months in the south of France
> > (Perigord, Provence, Cote D'Azur) then through Italy (Venice, Tuscany
> > and all it's towns, Rome, Amalfi Coast) and then Greece (islands of
> > Paros, Santorini, Mykonos, Delos and Hydra, Athens, Delphi etc), then
> > back to Rome for a few days and then off to Egypt for 2 weeks and then
> > back to Rome and then a train to Paris to wind things down. I kept a
> > journal everyday and today I put together these few lists. Thought some
> > of you might like to read them. Sorry if they're a tad. a LOT, long but
> > after 3 mostly glorious months on the road you have a bit to say. By
> > the way my wife's name is Line (pronounced Lynn). Enjoy.......
>
> It sounds as though you both had a fantastic time, and will have many
> great memories to savour. I agree with the others that it's a nice
> report, but I have a few curmudgeonly comments I'm afraid, and they
> don't really pertain to Europe. Your description of Cairo makes me
> wonder where outside the 'west' you've been before?
Oh, just a brief follow-up, the 'call to prayer' that you heard is, of
course, a recording, as it is in many such cities nowadays. It's nice
the first couple of times but gets boring after a while IMO. Not least,
when you recognise the same recording...
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:21:10 +0000, this_address...@yahoo.com
> (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
> prestwich tesco 24h offy) wrote:
>
>
> >Oh, just a brief follow-up, the 'call to prayer' that you heard is, of
> >course, a recording, as it is in many such cities nowadays. It's nice
> >the first couple of times but gets boring after a while IMO. Not least,
> >when you recognise the same recording...
>
> A bit like your local church bells and the Dutch electronic carillons
> that play snippets of pop tunes all bloody night. :-)
The church bells where I live are acoustic. Whether they're rung by
humans or not I don't know...
Bobby McGee
Thanks for the reply and I will try and clarify about Egypt. Yes, this
was my first time out of the "West" and like I wrote it was a huge
shock. Egypt had always been a dream for me and I guess I had this
fantasy image of it. Let me say first of all that the monuments, which
are the main thing people go to Egypt for outpassed all the
expectations I had. They were all spectacular!!!!!! Sure I headed out
on this trip to see the monuments, museums etc but also to meet people
and talk with them, share a glass, laugh, learn, etc etc etc That might
be more important than anything. In France, Italy and Greece we met the
most amazing people and we came home with several new friends, tons of
e-mail adresses etc. But here's the problem. In Egypt there is NONE of
that. Everyone we met wanted money from us. If someone was nice to us
at the end they had their hand out. I was deceived and let down and
hurt by that you have no idea. All we are to them is huge walking
dollar signs. For 2 weeks we were cheated, lied to, taken advantage of
and hassled. And this is everywhere we went. My wife is more accepting
than I am, like I said she is theeeeeeee best traveller, but even she
will admit that if someone is nice to you in Egypt, look out. There can
and never will be any true human contact there cause we are "rich" and
they are poor (our stained and frayed t-shirts and backpacks is no
deterrent).
Now you asked why I did not mention the Giza Plateau as one of my
hilites. Yes the pyramids and the Spinx are AMAZING but you can hardly
enjoy them because of the people there who hassle you. You can not have
1 minute to yourselves without someone coming up and hassling you. And
they do not stop or take no for an answer. And since it was our first
day there we decided to take a camel ride around the pyramids. BIG
mistake and probably the worst experience on this whole trip. We
overpaid to begin with and then were hassled by the boys who took us
the whole way. It took me absol losing it to get them to stop. And as
you're walking on the camel you have others coming up out of nowhere to
sell you cokes, souvenirs etc. We had this image of peacefully riding
by the pyramids but you could not enjoy it for a second cause you were
constantly saying "NO!" Thank God that we took 2 more camel rides, one
through the villages of Luxor and another through the desert of Aswan
that took the bad taste of the Giza plateau away. So that's why I have
problems appreciating the pyramids cause I associate them with the
non-stop hassling.
Also how about the Valley of the Kings? Again the tombs are something
that I will never ever forget but when you are in them, all of them,
you have an Egyptian, who is supposed to be a guard there, and he
follows you and talks to you and tries to play guide and will not leave
you alone cause he wants some baksheesh.
How about at the Temple of Kom Ombu when I had finished a bottle of
water and was looking for a garbage can and one of the "guards" pointed
me to one and then he followed me wanting a tip. Nothing is free there.
Way less for my wife, but for me all this took it's toll on me.
Like you said this was my first time out of the West ( we have
travelled a fair amount though) and I learnt that I will never ever
make it to India, Morocco, etc etc etc. I can not travel to a country
where you have no chance of having a meaningful conversation and making
some real friends. I met a guy who told me that you would have met some
nice people had we gotten off the tourist path. Now this might be true
but who goes to Egypt and gets off the beaten path, maybe 5% of the
people? The grand majority of us go there for the Giza, Luxor, Aswan
and Abu Simbel.
Also I talked about the Cairo museum being dirty. And man oh man it is
(for example there was 1/4 inch of dust on top of the glass case of
King Tut's coffin. Someone had written in it "Dust me" :-). I don't
agree with you cause the museums in Greece, everyone we went to, were
amazing. Clean, lighting, all was perfect. All the museums in France
and Italy the same thing. I know I sound like a typical North American
(we're Canadian) who wines and complains cause things were not like
home but I can assure you that I am not like that. France, Italy and
Greece were AMAZING and the monuments in Egypt as well. It's just so
deceiving to be treated like we were in Egypt and have no chance of any
human warmth, compassion and friendship.
I will ever remember Egypt from the words of a kid who ran to a fence
we were passing by and yelled "Hello Money!" at us. He wasn't asking
for money he was CALLING us "Money" .
>From the mouths of babes..........................
By the way these are strictly my opinions cause my wife was not nearly
as shocked as I was although she will agree with a lot of what I said.
She'd go to India in a second. I told her to send me a postcard :-)
Thanks David, it felt good to write about this. Happy Sunday to you.
Montreal Bob
PS> By the way I was told twice, both times by Egyptians that the music
and the singing coming from the mosques is done by a real person. I
thought they were recordings but I was told twice they weren't. But
again, I didn't know if I could believe them. Recordings or not it's
beautiful.
a.spencer3
"Bobby McGee" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133700775.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
You are right. We are 'rich' and they are poor - far more so than maybe you
still appreciate. You were just two more fabulously rich (to them) tourists
adding to the very melee you complain of. So what do you expect them to try
and do? A generous tip, or a lack of bargaining on your part can equal a
week's income to them. Do you now begrudge that for what you have now done
and seen?
There are ways to deal with all this which perhaps you cannot be expected to
learn on a first trip.
In years of going to the M/E we have made many friends (without money being
involved) and we have had quiet unhassled camel treks around the Pyramids,
let alone far longer treks elsewhere.
If you go to see the 'sights' you are going to meet up with all this.
Later visits can avoid the tourist crowds and you can see the real country,
if that is what you really wish. We have enjoyed enormous genuine
hospitality from shit-poor Egyptians (and Moroccans, Jordanians et al).
Do not write off a people from just one 'sights' dominated visit.
Your remarks just mirror those we've heard so often from 'it must be
Tuesday' tourists.
You don't seem to count yourselves as amongst those, so think and experience
a little more before you sound off.
Surreyman
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Hey ya David
> Thanks for the reply and I will try and clarify about Egypt. Yes, this
> was my first time out of the "West" and like I wrote it was a huge
> shock. Egypt had always been a dream for me and I guess I had this
> fantasy image of it. Let me say first of all that the monuments, which
> are the main thing people go to Egypt for outpassed all the
> expectations I had. They were all spectacular!!!!!! Sure I headed out
> on this trip to see the monuments, museums etc but also to meet people
> and talk with them, share a glass, laugh, learn, etc etc etc
Share a glass? :)
I used the Let's Go Guide to Israel and Egypt as part of the preparation
for the trip. At the back it had a few 'handy' phrases in both Hebrew
and Arabic. One of them was "can I buy you a drink?"- it had the
transliteration of the Hebrew, then under the Arabic said "you will
probably never need this phrase." The Harvard students' sense of humour
I suppose! :)
It did give a very good, if cynical, piece of advice about Egypt which
went something like this-
"Much though it may mean missing out on a wonderful personal encounter
it's safe to assume that if anyone approaches you in Egypt, it's most
likely because they want something from you."
It was very good advice!
> In Egypt there is NONE of
> that. Everyone we met wanted money from us. If someone was nice to us
> at the end they had their hand out. I was deceived and let down and
> hurt by that you have no idea.
That's a shame. I've been to countries where this is more common before,
so was prepared for it.
> All we are to them is huge walking
> dollar signs. For 2 weeks we were cheated, lied to, taken advantage of
> and hassled. And this is everywhere we went.
It's not a surprise. I'm sorry that the experience was that bad. I was
hassled, but not cheated (that I'm aware of), lied to or taken advantage
of, as I simply didn't give anyone the chance. On our first day, we took
a taxi from the hotel towards Giza. The taxi stopped and a young man
simply got in. At first, I thought it might be an acquaintance of the
taxi driver, and he was giving him a ride home. Fair enough. The guy
starts talking to us in English (bad sign already!) and explained that
he worked at the hospital. At this point, I start muttering to my
partner in Spanish that the guy just wants to be our guide, and we
should get rid of him. Oscar says no, it's fine and he's probably just
trying to improve his English, or talk with foreigners. No guesses for
who was right, and Mr. Nurse-would-be-Giza-guide was ejected at the next
set of lights! I could go on and on about similar experiences, and I'm
sure you had them too. They were generally not conversant in Spanish, so
we used it a lot as it also managed to put a wall between us and
would-be guides etc.
I think it's possible to brush those things aside and not let them ruin
a trip, but I don't blame you at all for feeling the way you did.
FWIW, while our week in Cairo was on our own, we took the Nile trip on a
very regimented tour. Something we hardly ever do, but I would
definitely recommend it. Our guide seemed very knowledgable, and would
translate much of the hieroglyphs etc. for us. More importantly, having
the guide kept all the other would-be guides at bay. Yes, we'd get
people trying to 'show' us things in the tombs etc., but it was much
easier to ignore them when you were part of a group. I noticed
individual travellers having a tough time. That said, we had a great
'free' day when we hired bikes and cycled around the west bank at Luxor
(valley of the kings, etc.) and we were relatively unmolested. Indeed,
we stopped in a village, and friendly little kids came up to us just to
fool around really- the kind of thing that would be impossible in
paedophile-obsessed Britain...
> My wife is more accepting
> than I am, like I said she is theeeeeeee best traveller, but even she
> will admit that if someone is nice to you in Egypt, look out.
Absolutely.
> There can
> and never will be any true human contact there cause we are "rich" and
> they are poor (our stained and frayed t-shirts and backpacks is no
> deterrent).
Again, very true.
> Now you asked why I did not mention the Giza Plateau as one of my
> hilites. Yes the pyramids and the Spinx are AMAZING but you can hardly
> enjoy them because of the people there who hassle you. You can not have
> 1 minute to yourselves without someone coming up and hassling you. And
> they do not stop or take no for an answer. And since it was our first
> day there we decided to take a camel ride around the pyramids. BIG
> mistake and probably the worst experience on this whole trip. We
> overpaid to begin with and then were hassled by the boys who took us
> the whole way. It took me absol losing it to get them to stop. And as
> you're walking on the camel you have others coming up out of nowhere to
> sell you cokes, souvenirs etc. We had this image of peacefully riding
> by the pyramids but you could not enjoy it for a second cause you were
> constantly saying "NO!" Thank God that we took 2 more camel rides, one
> through the villages of Luxor and another through the desert of Aswan
> that took the bad taste of the Giza plateau away. So that's why I have
> problems appreciating the pyramids cause I associate them with the
> non-stop hassling.
That's a real shame. We avoided the camels, and basically ignored anyone
who tried to talk to us. They do get the hint, and once people cottoned
on to the fact, the others left us as well. I've mentioned before that
many people assumed Oscar was from the region, as they'd often go up to
him and speak Arabic. That might have also helped a little- I'm not
sure.
Nothing could take the sight of the pyramids away from me though. I've
seen some beautiful man-made constructions in my life so far (Taj Mahal,
various European cities etc.) but this dwarves them, literally and
figuratively. From a distance, in the haze, I thought one of them was a
hill at first. I'll never forget just the sheer enormity of them. We
just walked around for hours staring at them.
Maybe you might go back again sometime? It seems cold-hearted, but the
only way to really get around in a country like Egypt is to ignore
people. They are not aggressive (or stupid), and if you avoid
eye-contact they will get the point- eventually.
[]
> Also I talked about the Cairo museum being dirty. And man oh man it is
> (for example there was 1/4 inch of dust on top of the glass case of
> King Tut's coffin. Someone had written in it "Dust me" :-).
That wasn't the case when we were there- maybe it's gotten worse!
> I don't
> agree with you cause the museums in Greece, everyone we went to, were
> amazing. Clean, lighting, all was perfect.
Oh, I've been in some dank ones. Heraklion, on Crete. Also, not Greece,
but Nicosia's is a bit drab too (while interesting.) Those I've been in
in Athens were fine though, I agree.
> All the museums in France
> and Italy the same thing. I know I sound like a typical North American
> (we're Canadian) who wines and complains cause things were not like
> home but I can assure you that I am not like that.
No, I don't think you are, and I appreciate you going into more detail
on Egypt. It sounds as though you certainly have some great memories
from there anyway- I'm sorry the trip to Giza was marred by the hassle!
You didn't go up the Cairo Tower did you? Fantastic place to have lunch-
they have a revolving restaurant on the top- the view (of the whole of
Cairo, the Pyramids and the Nile in both directions) is unforgettable.
And the lunch was reasonable too- cheap by western standards even!
Bobby McGee
> Well, welcome to the real world.
> You are right. We are 'rich' and they are poor - far more so than maybe you
> still appreciate. You were just two more fabulously rich (to them) tourists
> adding to the very melee you complain of. So what do you expect them to try
> and do? A generous tip, or a lack of bargaining on your part can equal a
> week's income to them. Do you now begrudge that for what you have now done
> and seen?
> There are ways to deal with all this which perhaps you cannot be expected to
> learn on a first trip.
> In years of going to the M/E we have made many friends (without money being
> involved) and we have had quiet unhassled camel treks around the Pyramids,
> let alone far longer treks elsewhere.
> If you go to see the 'sights' you are going to meet up with all this.
> Later visits can avoid the tourist crowds and you can see the real country,
> if that is what you really wish. We have enjoyed enormous genuine
> hospitality from shit-poor Egyptians (and Moroccans, Jordanians et al).
> Do not write off a people from just one 'sights' dominated visit.
> Your remarks just mirror those we've heard so often from 'it must be
> Tuesday' tourists.
> You don't seem to count yourselves as amongst those, so think and experience
> a little more before you sound off.
>
> Surreyman
Wow, welcome back to real world is right. I have missed all the
angriness and sarcasm and dart throwing opinions on the newsgroups.
Bottom line my friend is that there is not one word I wrote that wasn't
true. You say that I am "adding to the very melee I complain of. My
wife and I pumped over 3000$ into the Egyptian economy and that
includes over $1000 to the shopkeepers,sellers on the streets, taxis
and a good chunk of that to kids and people who "helped" us. We handed
out money like an ATM machine.
You're right I went in not knowing what to expect but after a few days
we learnt a thing or two. A generous tip you say? To one person? 2? 3?
500? We overtipped everywhere we went and it was never enough. Do not
give me lectures on tipping and handing out money. We handed out more
in 2 weeks than in 2 1/2 months in Europe.
You say "If you are going to see the sites you are going to meet up
with all this" and I fully agree. But, again, like I originally wrote
95% of the people got to Egypt for the sites. Same with Jordan (Petra)
etc. If you are one of the 5% who travels deep into these countries
then I guess I take my hat off to you. I agree with you that things
would get better. If I made it sound like I was putting down the whole
of Egypt then I apologize. I can't comment on the whole of it but I
sure as hell will comment on what I personally saw and went through.
So I will leave people like you the Middle East cause there are too
many other countries that I want to visit.
"Happy" Sunday to you. Yikes..............
Bob
a.spencer3
>
> My
> wife and I pumped over 3000$ into the Egyptian economy and that
> includes over $1000 to the shopkeepers,sellers on the streets, taxis
> and a good chunk of that to kids and people who "helped" us. We handed
> out money like an ATM machine.
> You're right I went in not knowing what to expect but after a few days
> we learnt a thing or two. A generous tip you say? To one person? 2? 3?
> 500? We overtipped everywhere we went and it was never enough. Do not
> give me lectures on tipping and handing out money. We handed out more
> in 2 weeks than in 2 1/2 months in Europe.
>
Well, you simply didn't need to do that.
Surreyman
DDT Filled Mormons
wrote:
>
>> Well, welcome to the real world.
>> You are right. We are 'rich' and they are poor - far more so than maybe you
>> still appreciate. You were just two more fabulously rich (to them) tourists
>> adding to the very melee you complain of. So what do you expect them to try
>> and do? A generous tip, or a lack of bargaining on your part can equal a
>> week's income to them. Do you now begrudge that for what you have now done
>> and seen?
>> There are ways to deal with all this which perhaps you cannot be expected to
>> learn on a first trip.
>> In years of going to the M/E we have made many friends (without money being
>> involved) and we have had quiet unhassled camel treks around the Pyramids,
>> let alone far longer treks elsewhere.
>> If you go to see the 'sights' you are going to meet up with all this.
>> Later visits can avoid the tourist crowds and you can see the real country,
>> if that is what you really wish. We have enjoyed enormous genuine
>> hospitality from shit-poor Egyptians (and Moroccans, Jordanians et al).
>> Do not write off a people from just one 'sights' dominated visit.
>> Your remarks just mirror those we've heard so often from 'it must be
>> Tuesday' tourists.
>> You don't seem to count yourselves as amongst those, so think and experience
>> a little more before you sound off.
>>
>> Surreyman
>
>
>Wow, welcome back to real world is right. I have missed all the
>angriness and sarcasm and dart throwing opinions on the newsgroups.
I suspect Surreyman was having a bad day.
I am without doubt "well-travelled", whatever that could mean, but I
still find some places to be painful to visit due to the jaded nature
of the locals. With somewhere like Egypt, there are a number a
must-sees that you can guarantee will have hordes of poor-ish locals
who are well adept at separating you from your cash. This is a
nuisance, and can leave a nasty taste in the mouth, as it apparently
did for you.
Egypt is still third world, and probably will always remain as such,
despite which it has some attractions beyond compare. The first third
world country you see will inevitably induce a bit of shell shock. The
stuff you described is not really that surprising to me, as I have
seen worse (try India on for size!).
I suspect you've had a bit of a life experience then. Don't let it put
you off continuing!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
[]
> I am without doubt "well-travelled", whatever that could mean, but I
> still find some places to be painful to visit due to the jaded nature
> of the locals. With somewhere like Egypt, there are a number a
> must-sees that you can guarantee will have hordes of poor-ish locals
> who are well adept at separating you from your cash. This is a
> nuisance, and can leave a nasty taste in the mouth, as it apparently
> did for you.
>
> Egypt is still third world, and probably will always remain as such,
> despite which it has some attractions beyond compare. The first third
> world country you see will inevitably induce a bit of shell shock. The
> stuff you described is not really that surprising to me, as I have
> seen worse (try India on for size!).
Actually, in some respects, I found India easier to deal with. I don't
know why. You're right that it's 'worse' in a way. Seeing mutilated
children (limbs hacked off or grotesquely twisted at birth so they can
beg better) is always hard, but because I saw so much of it in India, I
think my only response after a while was one of numbness. I also had
experiences I'll always treasure, such as when the auto-rickshaw I was
in stopped at traffic lights. About half a dozen little kids (between 4
and 10 years old roughly) appeared from out of a _manhole_ in the
ground, and jumped in. They giggled, laughed, touched my hair (which was
a bit longer than the buzz cut I usually have), asked for money, didn't
get any, and before the lights changed scarpered off, still laughing.
As for Cairo, it isn't all tourism of course. We walked in some middle
class neighbourhoods which didn't seem 'third world' at all. It has a
large middle class- and property prices are very expensive in areas like
Zamalek. Also, some of the older parts of the city are fun to walk
through. You walk through somewhat haphazard streets and the locals just
go about their business. It's where the tourism is that you tend to find
the most hassle.
> I suspect you've had a bit of a life experience then. Don't let it put
> you off continuing!
Yes, my thoughts entirely.
poldy
"Bobby McGee" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 2. and 1. Sistine Chapel / Vatican & Abu Simbel (there is no way I
> could pick one of these. No words I could write could describe these 2
> works of absol genuis. In history there have been geniuses far beyone
> anything we can comprehend and it is an honor to be in their presence.
> I still get goosebumps when I think of them. I am wondering what else
> in life I can see that will match these 2. It'll be
> hard.........................
I appreciated that Michaelangelo reflected some ambivalence he had about
his faith and the synthesis of Greek/Roman mythology with Christian
mythology.
But I guess religious art just doesn't grab me. Or just not that
interested in all the Christian doctrine depicted on those walls and
ceiling. We're only talking about the culmination of tenets and ideas
which dominated Western philosophy for centuries.
Gregory Morrow
Bobby McGee wrote:
> The one place I would never EVER live:
> CAIRO. Offer me a multi million dollar penthouse there and I would turn
> it down without even thinking about it. It is frighteningly poor and
> dirty and by that I mean piles of rotting garbage. I don't know what I
> was expecting there but it sure as hell was not THAT. It was a big
> shock. And the icing on the cake was on the last day I was sitting on
> the balcony of our "5 star" hotel that was an absolute dump and a van
> stopped on the busy street right in front of me. The driver gets out,
> pulls up his jalaba and takes a dump right there on the side of the
> road. Picks up some of that rotting garbage and wipes himself and gets
> back in the van and drives off. I try and draw the line of not living
> in cities where people shit in the streets :-) And the driving? Oh My
> God!!!!! There are no rules other than you go wherever you want and you
> honk all the way. I thought Rome was crazy but Cairo makes it look like
> a Sunday drive through the country. It is incredible that on this same
> planet there is the calm of Tuscany and the mayhem and noise and filth
> of Cairo. When you travel you see it all. Boy do you see it all :-)
Well what the hell did you expect - they're Muslims after
all...anyplace that they choose to infest tends to be a real 2qualid
pesthole. ALL Muslim (and Arab) countries are like that...
--
Bert
Greg
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
If religious art didn't grab me (and I'm not religious) that would
probably cut out a huge part of art (in the widest sense of the word) I
enjoy in Europe, from cathedrals and illuminated manuscripts to
paintings, sculptures and Palestrina masses. Certainly, religiously
inspired art is not by default interesting, and due to the historical
nature of the collections, there's a lot of humdrum stuff to wade
through at times. As an aside, rather admired the Vatican museums
collection of modern art, which showed, uh, rather catholic (small 'c'!)
taste! :)
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
[]
> Well, welcome to the real world.
> You are right. We are 'rich' and they are poor - far more so than maybe you
> still appreciate. You were just two more fabulously rich (to them) tourists
> adding to the very melee you complain of. So what do you expect them to try
> and do? A generous tip, or a lack of bargaining on your part can equal a
> week's income to them. Do you now begrudge that for what you have now done
> and seen?
I think that's a little harsh. As I pointed out earlier, most Egyptians
just go about their daily business, and tourists are something of a
sideshow, albeit a crucial part of the country's economy. In areas where
tourists go, though, I found _some_ of them uncommonly aggressive
compared to other places I've been. At some of the temples (e.g. Edfu,
Esna) the only way to get to them from the ferry boats is via a gauntlet
of stalls. They were just as busy at dawn, dusk and the middle of the
day when we were there, and I found the behaviour of some of the vendors
very rude. I was with a group of retirees who are well travelled- many
had been to countries like India, poorer parts of South America etc.-
they were not phased by third world infrastructures. What they weren't
used to, particularly in the case of the women, were for vendors to
literally grab their arms as they passed, and try and pull them towards
their stalls. I'd just like those of you reading this to reflect on what
you might have thought if you'd seen a vendor grab your partner in this
manner? I imagine not everyone would be happy about it. I would have
considered this rude anywhere, and the feisty bunch I was travelling
with certainly told the vendors where to go.
That said, those were particularly bad experiences- most wandering of
real markets, particularly in Cairo and Aswan, was a pleasure.
The Reid
>The one place I would never EVER live:
>CAIRO. Offer me a multi million dollar penthouse there and I would turn
>it down without even thinking about it.
well, Africa aint like Europe! Thanks for the reoprt.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>The church bells where I live are acoustic.
no lasers then?
The Reid
>In Egypt there is NONE of
>that. Everyone we met wanted money from us. If someone was nice to us
>at the end they had their hand out. I was deceived and let down and
>hurt by that you have no idea. All we are to them is huge walking
>dollar signs. For 2 weeks we were cheated, lied to, taken advantage of
>and hassled. And this is everywhere we went
Western Europeans are affluent, Egyptians generally are not. I
wont repeat my father in laws opinions, having served in north
Africa during the war, not too PC, especially about Arabs. Still,
Thesinger liked them.
Were you not expecting all that stuff?
Jack Campin - bogus address
> Oh, just a brief follow-up, the 'call to prayer' that you heard is, of
> course, a recording, as it is in many such cities nowadays. It's nice
> the first couple of times but gets boring after a while IMO. Not least,
> when you recognise the same recording...
There are some mosques in Istanbul that employ a real live muezzin.
One of the loveliest pieces of singing I've ever heard in my life
was in a mosque there just before the call to prayer; the mosque was
empty except for me and the muezzin (who couldn't see me). Before
going to the microphone he wandered slowly around the the interior
doing quiet improvisatory warmups, thinking he only had God for an
audience.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:36:26 +0000, in rec.travel.europe,
> this_address...@yahoo.com (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the
> duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy) arranged some
> electrons, so they looked like this :
>
> ... What they weren't
> ... used to, particularly in the case of the women, were for vendors to
> ... literally grab their arms as they passed, and try and pull them towards
> ... their stalls. I'd just like those of you reading this to reflect on what
> ... you might have thought if you'd seen a vendor grab your partner in this
> ... manner? I imagine not everyone would be happy about it. I would have
> ... considered this rude anywhere, and the feisty bunch I was travelling
> ... with certainly told the vendors where to go.
>
> Eight years ago it happened to me in the centre of Athens, near the
> market. To this day I have no idea what the guy was trying to sell me, but
> grabbing my arm is not acceptable in any circumstance -
Completely agree with you. It's also interesting that it happened there,
because it would generally be unacceptable for a muslim man to touch a
muslim woman he didn't know (and in some cases even if he did) in such a
way. I guess female senior citizens were seen as fair game... :(
As you mention it, I've found some of the market traders in Athens
verbally agressive, if not physically. My partner is _very_ tolerant of
market traders haggling usually- I'm not into it as much- but even he
had to escape an old woman who was absolutely bending his ear! :)
They're very good at different languages in the markets there as well-
we found that Spanish wasn't as good a subterfuge as usual!
Michael
> On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:36:26 +0000, in rec.travel.europe,
> this_address...@yahoo.com (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses
> o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy) arranged some electrons, so they looked like
> this :
>
> ... just go about their daily business, and tourists are something of a
> ... sideshow, albeit a crucial part of the country's economy. In areas where
> ... tourists go, though, I found _some_ of them uncommonly aggressive
> ... compared to other places I've been. At some of the temples (e.g. Edfu,
> ... Esna) the only way to get to them from the ferry boats is via a gauntlet
> ... of stalls. They were just as busy at dawn, dusk and the middle of the
> ... day when we were there, and I found the behaviour of some of the vendors
> ... very rude. I was with a group of retirees who are well travelled- many
> ... had been to countries like India, poorer parts of South America etc.-
> ... they were not phased by third world infrastructures. What they weren't
> ... used to, particularly in the case of the women, were for vendors to
> ... literally grab their arms as they passed, and try and pull them towards
> ... their stalls. I'd just like those of you reading this to reflect on what
> ... you might have thought if you'd seen a vendor grab your partner in this
> ... manner? I imagine not everyone would be happy about it. I would have
> ... considered this rude anywhere, and the feisty bunch I was travelling
> ... with certainly told the vendors where to go.
>
> Eight years ago it happened to me in the centre of Athens, near the market. To this day I
> have no idea what the guy was trying to sell me, but grabbing my arm is not acceptable in
> any circumstance
How about the girls in central Prague after 6 pm? I also got grabbed,
perhaps due to a lack of a significant other in tow.
M
http://www.cannes-or-bust.com/
- except when I'm helping a blind person, of course. Even my father would
> get a earful every time he tried to "help" me cross the street!
>
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>I'm not into it as much- but even he
>had to escape an old woman who was absolutely bending his ear!
at the other extreme, two lovely Italian ladies apologised to us
for trying to sell us *two* baskets of porcini with "sorry, we
are Italian". Of course within a week I wished I had bought both.
The deli man got us too, we wanted some truffle paste, but having
told us "we only pass this way once", "life is short" type stuff
we left with a small package and light of well over 100 euros.
B Vaughan
(David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
prestwich tesco 24h offy) wrote:
>The church bells where I live are acoustic. Whether they're rung by
>humans or not I don't know...
I only ever heard one church that had a recording instead of bells.
Here in Italy, they're acoustic, but they are usually rung
automatically according to a program. The priest also has a remote
control in case he feels like whipping off a quick extemporaneous
peal.
The church I attended in Princeton NJ had bells that were pealed by
humans. I was signed up for a course to learn to play them, but the
illness of the instructor caused the course to be cancelled. I would
have gotten a real charge out of playing the bells. There were wooden
hammers and you had to hit them with your fists. They covered a full
octave, but I don't think they had accidentals.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
B Vaughan
wrote:
Several people have noted that Egypt, being a third world country, can
be expected to have endless encounters with people looking for tips,
handouts, etc. I've never been to Egypt but I've been to other third
world countries, including China in the mid 1980s and Zambia in the
early part of this century. I never encountered anything like what
I've seen described in Egypt. China of course by now is well along the
road to development, but Zambia is still today one of the world's
poorest countries.
In China I never encountered any beggars until my most recent trips,
and if people wanted to talk to you to improve their English, that's
what they really wanted to do. There were some whispered offers to
exchange money at black market rates, but they were never aggressive.
There was a bit of minor hassle by competing vendors at a market near
the Xian clay warriors site, but it was easily ignored. The beggars I
saw in China in the early 1990s never approached anyone, they just sat
by the road with a bowl for money.
In Zambia, I never saw any begging, although one young boy approached
me to ask for help for his family. My daughter talked to him,
suggesting places he might be able to go for help (she was working
there at the time). He seemed happy with her suggestions and went off
without asking for money. My daughter said he might have thought I was
a nun. (Thanks a lot!) There was a little minor hassling at two places
that were selling carved wooden items, but nobody even approached us
physically, just called to us from their stalls.
No one in either country ever seemed to expect, let alone demand, a
tip. Employees in the hotels and other tourist venues went out of
their way to help us in any way they could, especially in Zambia. We
met individuals in both countries and had interesting conversations
with them without being pestered for money. We even invited one of our
guides in Zambia to have lunch with us after an excursion, and had a
very pleasant conversation, which she seemed to enjoy as much as us,
without ever suggesting, even by demeanor, that she was expecting
anything from us other than the tip we had already given her. My
daughter was a bit pestered by marriage proposals, but this was by
coworkers, not by people she had met casually.
Obviously there is more going on in Egypt than just poverty. One
factor is probably the sheer magnitude of the tourism. However, I'm
sure that they would have even more tourism and more money to spread
around if they didn't have this aggression problem.
a.spencer3
"B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:haj8p1penpcka14n8...@4ax.com...
No, I wasn't having an off-day, as someone in a post above suggested!
The tourist areas of Egypt are exactly as described, I never denied that.
But I was trying to explain to the original poster that he just hadn't
handled it all in the best way. If you throw money around in the way he said
he did, he was just asking for the clamourous multitudes to descend!
As a matter of interest, knowing N. Africa and the M/E pretty well, the most
insidious hasslers are in Tangiers. Now they really *are* a pain, far worse
than Cairo/Luxor. Tangiers is the only place where I have ended up reacting
angrily.
Surreyman
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
[]
> Several people have noted that Egypt, being a third world country, can
> be expected to have endless encounters with people looking for tips,
> handouts, etc. I've never been to Egypt but I've been to other third
> world countries, including China in the mid 1980s and Zambia in the
> early part of this century. I never encountered anything like what
> I've seen described in Egypt. China of course by now is well along the
> road to development, but Zambia is still today one of the world's
> poorest countries.
Actually, this is not a third world problem per se, and it's not
accurate when people term it as such. It's more to do with certain
aspects of Egyptian culture, particularly the idea of baksheesh. It's
more than just tipping, it's more than just begging- it's a complex mix
of things. Even police asked us for baksheesh- I'm not kidding. Someone
told us to take a zillion pens with us. Others (especially on the travel
forum I checked out) poo-pooed the idea, but it worked. Whenever a
policeman or security guard asked us if we had anything to give them, we
handed over a pen, and they were delighted. I kid you not.
[]
> Obviously there is more going on in Egypt than just poverty.
Yes, indeed.
DDT Filled Mormons
<gregor...@earthlink.net> wrote:
You need to readjust the subtlety dial if you want a reaction, Greg.
cho...@socal.rr.com
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
> Actually, this is not a third world problem per se, and it's not
> accurate when people term it as such. It's more to do with certain
> aspects of Egyptian culture, particularly the idea of baksheesh. It's
> more than just tipping, it's more than just begging- it's a complex mix
> of things. Even police asked us for baksheesh- I'm not kidding.
http://www.salon.com/travel/diary/pott/2000/04/11/baksheesh/
Icono Clast
> 3. Michelangelo's DAVID (We waited 2 1/2 hours in the hot Florence sun
> to get in and it would be worth twice that. Art fan or not sometime in
> your life try and make it to Florence to see him. Now I like the ladies
> but I am willing to admit that he is absolutely BEAUTIFUL. The calm and
> yet still "on guard" look on his face is perfect. HE is perfect. How
> many pieces of art will make people gasp? He does.
I all but collapsed when I saw him at the far end of the gallery. I had
to sit down. M'girlfriend dabbed at my tears. I was down for about ten
minutes.
> Paris is magic!!!!!
You might enjoy reading my Impressions of Paris
<http://geocities.com/iconoc/Articles/ParisImp.html> at the site at
Right in the sig as well as the two pages that accompany it.
> We both HATE squid
And I think Mediterranean squid is the best.
> The Stazione Termini (in Rome) and surrounding streets is a travellers
> paradise.
We stayed across the street.
> There is no place like home.
___________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
< http://geocities.com/dancefest/ >-< http://geocities.com/iconoc/ >
ICQ: < http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 > ---> IClast at SFbay Net
Poetic Justice
>[Re: Michelangelo's David]
>I all but collapsed when I saw him at the
>far end of the gallery. I had to sit down.
>M'girlfriend dabbed at my tears. I was
>down for about ten minutes.
Now culture shock has an official name: David Syndrome
By Nick Pisa in Rome and Catherine Humble
(Filed: 13/11/2005)
Most visitors to Italy's cultural sights feel the pleasure that can come
from looking at some of the world's most beautiful buildings and
paintings.
Yet for some the thrill is so intense that they suffer sweating, shaking
and fainting spells - and need hospital treatment to recover.
According to medical staff at Florence's Santa Maria Nuova hospital more
than 100 people have been admitted over the past four years suffering
from dizziness and disorientation after admiring the masterpieces of the
Uffizi Gallery and other sights in the city.
Now an Italian psychiatrist is embarking on a detailed study of visitors
to Michelangelo's David, regarded as the world's most beautiful statue,
to measure their symptoms and assess its impact on their physical and
mental well-being.
Graziella Magherini has begun a year-long study into the "emotional
impact" of admiring the recently restored 500-year-old Renaissance
masterpiece, which is viewed by almost a million people a year. Visitors
will be asked to record their feelings as they gaze upon David.
Psychiatrists have long debated the existence of what is known as
Stendhal Syndrome, a psychosomatic condition that causes rapid
heartbeat, dizziness and even hallucinations when an individual is
exposed to an "overdose" of beautiful art.
It is named after Stendhal, the pen name of 19th-century author
Marie-Henrie Beyle, who gave an early detailed description of the
phenomenon on a visit to Florence.
Prof Magherini said: "I believe a unique type of visitor establishes a
direct bond with the statue that I call the David Syndrome. I'm
convinced that admiring the statue causes mind-bending symptoms. It
affects those who are creative and sensitive and those travelling on
their own or in couples."
Doctors at Santa Maria Nuova say they regularly admit tourists suffering
"mental imbalances" after taking in Florence's culture. One danger spot
is the Uffizi, which contains Botticelli's The Birth of Venus and
Leonardo da Vinci's Adoration of the Magi.
Dr Paolo Rossi Prodi, the director of psychiatry at the hospital, said:
"The patients are usually Europeans or Americans, overwhelmed by the
cultural shock of arriving in Florence.
" One theory is the viewing of so much culture and art brings on a sense
of anguish and insecurity, something that the patient is not used to. We
have to treat them with anti-depressants."
Italians were immune to the condition, according to Prof Magherini,
along with the Japanese, who she said were so organised in their
sightseeing that "they rarely have time for emotional attacks".
Stendhal recorded in 1817 how he was affected by the city's culture.
"Everything spoke so vividly to my soul," he wrote. "If I could only
forget. I had palpitations of the heart. Life was drained from me. I
walked with the fear of falling." Henry James and Marcel Proust both
wrote of being agitated by Florence.
Dr Rossi described the case of a 40-year-old Briton who collapsed in the
Uffizi. "He was in a terrible state," he said. "He was thrashing about
and had taken complete leave of his senses. The last thing he remembered
was looking at a Caravaggio; the rest was blank."
Galleries in Britain do not suffer in the same way. "We have never heard
of anything like David Syndrome happening here," said a spokesman for
the Royal Academy of Arts.
Brian Sewell, the art critic, said that it was hardly surprising. "With
the Sistine Chapel it is perfectly understandable that someone might
fall ill," he said. "No one could possibly faint in St Paul's Cathedral.
If someone did they should be sent straight to the lunatic asylum."
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
The Reid
>Dr Rossi described the case of a 40-year-old Briton who collapsed in the
>Uffizi. "He was in a terrible state," he said. "He was thrashing about
>and had taken complete leave of his senses. The last thing he remembered
>was looking at a Caravaggio; the rest was blank."
I must be a philistine or maybe just more robust.
B Vaughan
Justice) wrote:
>According to medical staff at Florence's Santa Maria Nuova hospital more
>than 100 people have been admitted over the past four years suffering
>from dizziness and disorientation after admiring the masterpieces of the
>Uffizi Gallery and other sights in the city.
Probably due to poor ventilation and standing in line for two hours.
>Psychiatrists have long debated the existence of what is known as
>Stendhal Syndrome, a psychosomatic condition that causes rapid
>heartbeat, dizziness and even hallucinations when an individual is
>exposed to an "overdose" of beautiful art.
I'm ashamed to call myself an art lover any more.
B Vaughan
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to Poetic Justice
>
>>Dr Rossi described the case of a 40-year-old Briton who collapsed in the
>>Uffizi. "He was in a terrible state," he said. "He was thrashing about
>>and had taken complete leave of his senses. The last thing he remembered
>>was looking at a Caravaggio; the rest was blank."
Maybe he wasn't accustomed to the heat?
>I must be a philistine or maybe just more robust.
That makes two of us.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:31:48 +0000, The Reid
> <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Following up to Poetic Justice
> >
> >>Dr Rossi described the case of a 40-year-old Briton who collapsed in the
> >>Uffizi. "He was in a terrible state," he said. "He was thrashing about
> >>and had taken complete leave of his senses. The last thing he remembered
> >>was looking at a Caravaggio; the rest was blank."
>
> Maybe he wasn't accustomed to the heat?
>
> >I must be a philistine or maybe just more robust.
>
> That makes two of us.
Heat, and also standing up for a long time- it can lead to fainting in
some people. I don't think fainting has ever been seen as a prerequisite
for appreciating art! :)
Poetic Justice
>I don't think fainting has ever been seen
>as a prerequisite for appreciating art! :)
Actually it's a fad that I hope catches on with the 'art snobs':).
I love it when they stand *directly* in front of a painting or
sculpture for ~10 minutes, explaining the artist's entire life history
and passions to their companion. And then *finally* point out a few
things that are actually *in* that painting or sculpture.
I would just find it easier to step over their unconscious bodies
rather than peering over their shoulders as they drone on:). Regards,
Walter
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> David Horne,... wrote:
>
> >I don't think fainting has ever been seen
> >as a prerequisite for appreciating art! :)
>
> Actually it's a fad that I hope catches on with the 'art snobs':).
>
> I love it when they stand *directly* in front of a painting or
> sculpture for ~10 minutes, explaining the artist's entire life history
> and passions to their companion. And then *finally* point out a few
> things that are actually *in* that painting or sculpture.
Are such people prevalent? Even if I didn't agree with it, I'd be
interested in what they had to say. Anyone who wants to talk to another
about a work of art for _that_ long is worth at least a hearing IMO.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> >I must be a philistine or maybe just more robust.
>>
>> That makes two of us.
>
>Heat, and also standing up for a long time- it can lead to fainting in
>some people. I don't think fainting has ever been seen as a prerequisite
>for appreciating art! :)
Its Philistinism in my case, I like architecture, even though
architects often screw it up, but looking at old paintings of fat
birds and blokes with leaves for genitals or romanticised battles
leaves me pretty cold.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> I love it when they stand *directly* in front of a painting or
>> sculpture for ~10 minutes, explaining the artist's entire life history
>> and passions to their companion. And then *finally* point out a few
>> things that are actually *in* that painting or sculpture.
>
>Are such people prevalent?
No.
>Even if I didn't agree with it, I'd be
>interested in what they had to say. Anyone who wants to talk to another
>about a work of art for _that_ long is worth at least a hearing IMO.
Have you seen (I think) Manhattan, where Woody Allen takes the p
out of such people?
Alan S
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>>Even if I didn't agree with it, I'd be
>>interested in what they had to say. Anyone who wants to talk to another
>>about a work of art for _that_ long is worth at least a hearing IMO.
>
>Have you seen (I think) Manhattan, where Woody Allen takes the p
>out of such people?
eople? or peole? or really peed, eole?
Cheers, Alan, Australia
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >> >I must be a philistine or maybe just more robust.
> >>
> >> That makes two of us.
> >
> >Heat, and also standing up for a long time- it can lead to fainting in
> >some people. I don't think fainting has ever been seen as a prerequisite
> >for appreciating art! :)
>
> Its Philistinism in my case, I like architecture, even though
> architects often screw it up, but looking at old paintings of fat
> birds and blokes with leaves for genitals or romanticised battles
> leaves me pretty cold.
My only issue with going to an art museum is that you often view too
much. That's why I much prefer free museums, as you just walk in, look
at what you feel like, then leave.
The Reid
>Its Philistinism in my case, I like architecture, even though
>architects often screw it up, but looking at old paintings of fat
>birds and blokes with leaves for genitals or romanticised battles
>leaves me pretty cold.
I meant to continue to say I would rather look at a collection of
old cars, steam locomotives or suchlike. Or even a modern
Ferrari, music to the ears! "Art" music is fine, although very
modern stuff goes over my head, but I expect that was the same
when Rossini wrote his Stabat Mater, my favourite arty piece of
music (I understand he was ashamed of it).
As for the pieces in Tate Modern, I'm usually completely
mystified. The glass of water labeled "oak tree" left me shaking
my head, even after the artists description.
The Reid
>>Have you seen (I think) Manhattan, where Woody Allen takes the p
>>out of such people?
>
>eople? or peole? or really peed, eole?
LOL p as in piss.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> That's why I much prefer free museums, as you just walk in, look
>at what you feel like, then leave.
that suits me too! :-)
Seriously, art surely should be there to nip in and contemplate
for a few minutes or whatever. Not that it will get me anywhere
much.
I like that Chinese woman with a blue face. :-)
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> > That's why I much prefer free museums, as you just walk in, look
> >at what you feel like, then leave.
>
> that suits me too! :-)
>
> Seriously, art surely should be there to nip in and contemplate
> for a few minutes or whatever. Not that it will get me anywhere
> much.
Go into the National Gallery next time you're in the area. Go directly
to the room that has two Vermeers. Have a look at them for about 5
minutes each, then you can leave. Tell me you don't feel anything! :)
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:32:12 +0000, The Reid
> <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I like that Chinese woman with a blue face. :-)
>
> LOL along with 1000 million others.
I got it now! It's the painting that I think hangs in Onslow's house in
Keeping up Appearances. A relative of mine had that hanging in here
house!
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 16:45:05 +0000, this_address...@yahoo.com
> (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
> prestwich tesco 24h offy) wrote:
>
> >Martin <mar...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:32:12 +0000, The Reid
> >> <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I like that Chinese woman with a blue face. :-)
> >>
> >> LOL along with 1000 million others.
> >
> >I got it now! It's the painting that I think hangs in Onslow's house in
> >Keeping up Appearances. A relative of mine had that hanging in here
> >house!
>
> I think it replaced 1950s flying ducks.
I'm sure she had that too...
Poetic Justice
>Are such people prevalent?
No they are not but they do exist and I and I'm sure others have seen
them.
Actually my comment was more 'tongue in cheek' complete with 'smileys'
about a stereotype.
Whether they are an art historian, teacher, etc. or just some phoney
who is trying to show-off to their travelling companions. I was
basically commenting on the rudeness and selfishness of some people in
museums and gallerys who block the works for an extended period of time.
>Even if I didn't agree with it, I'd be
>interested in what they had to say.
So would I.
>Anyone who wants to talk to another
>about a work of art for _that_ long is
>worth at least a hearing IMO.
Yes they are but they are not talking to me or the others in the
museum/gallery while they are blocking an exhibit for an long period of
time.
The last two small group (4 persons) tours in Rome I took, one was the
Vatican (Art Historian) and the other was the Borghese Gallery (author
on Renaissance architecture). I noticed (perhaps because it's a pet
peeve:) that both guides keep us to the side of the exhibits in the
crowded rooms while doing their general presentation and then motioned
us to the front to point out different details. Regards, Walter
>PoeticJustice wrote:
>Actually it's a fad that I hope catches on
>with the 'art snobs':).
>I love it when they stand *directly* in front
>of a painting or sculpture for ~10 minutes,
>explaining the artist's entire life history
>and passions to their companion. And
>then *finally* point out a few things that
>are actually *in* that painting or sculpture.
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
tim (moved to sweden)
"David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
message news:1h77jea.1ifprn1rwbwwbN%this_address...@yahoo.com...
> The Reid <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
>> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>>
>> > That's why I much prefer free museums, as you just walk in, look
>> >at what you feel like, then leave.
>>
>> that suits me too! :-)
>>
>> Seriously, art surely should be there to nip in and contemplate
>> for a few minutes or whatever. Not that it will get me anywhere
>> much.
>
> Go into the National Gallery next time you're in the area. Go directly
> to the room that has two Vermeers. Have a look at them for about 5
> minutes each, then you can leave. Tell me you don't feel anything! :)
Do they all have such inspiring names as
"woman holding a balance"?
(I'd never heard of the guy?, I had to look him up)
tim
tim (moved to sweden)
"The Reid" <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vjodp1p65v5ub1mj5...@4ax.com...
> Following up to The Reid
>
>>Its Philistinism in my case, I like architecture, even though
>>architects often screw it up, but looking at old paintings of fat
>>birds and blokes with leaves for genitals or romanticised battles
>>leaves me pretty cold.
>
> I meant to continue to say I would rather look at a collection of
> old cars, steam locomotives or suchlike. Or even a modern
> Ferrari, music to the ears! "Art" music is fine, although very
> modern stuff goes over my head, but I expect that was the same
> when Rossini wrote his Stabat Mater, my favourite arty piece of
> music (I understand he was ashamed of it).
> As for the pieces in Tate Modern, I'm usually completely
> mystified. The glass of water labeled "oak tree" left me shaking
> my head, even after the artists description.
Are there exhibs at the 'modern'. I though one just went
there to look at the building (surely the best part by far?)
tim
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
> prestwich tesco 24h offy" <this_address...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> message news:1h77jea.1ifprn1rwbwwbN%this_address...@yahoo.com...
> > The Reid <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
[]
> >> Seriously, art surely should be there to nip in and contemplate
> >> for a few minutes or whatever. Not that it will get me anywhere
> >> much.
> >
> > Go into the National Gallery next time you're in the area. Go directly
> > to the room that has two Vermeers. Have a look at them for about 5
> > minutes each, then you can leave. Tell me you don't feel anything! :)
>
> Do they all have such inspiring names as
> "woman holding a balance"?
You don't need inspiring names with art like his IMO!
> (I'd never heard of the guy?, I had to look him up)
He's well-known though.
Alan S
<mar...@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 16:45:05 +0000, this_address...@yahoo.com
>(David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
>prestwich tesco 24h offy) wrote:
>
>>Martin <mar...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:32:12 +0000, The Reid
>>> <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >I like that Chinese woman with a blue face. :-)
>>>
>>> LOL along with 1000 million others.
>>
>>I got it now! It's the painting that I think hangs in Onslow's house in
>>Keeping up Appearances. A relative of mine had that hanging in here
>>house!
>
>I think it replaced 1950s flying ducks.
Additive.
Cheers, Alan, Australia
Icono Clast
> Icono Clast wrote:
>> [Re: Michelangelo's David] I all but collapsed when I saw him at
>> the far end of the gallery. I had to sit down. M'girlfriend dabbed
>> at my tears. I was down for about ten minutes.
>
> Now culture shock has an official name: David Syndrome
> By Nick Pisa in Rome and Catherine Humble
> (Filed: 13/11/2005)
> ...And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
¡Bravo!
___________________________________________________________________
Un San Francisqueño en San Francisco.
< http://geocities.com/dancefest/ >-< http://geocities.com/iconoc/ >
ICQ: < http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 > ---> IClast at SFbay Net
The Reid
>> As for the pieces in Tate Modern, I'm usually completely
>> mystified. The glass of water labeled "oak tree" left me shaking
>> my head, even after the artists description.
>
>Are there exhibs at the 'modern'. I though one just went
>there to look at the building (surely the best part by far?)
Yes, the space is better than the contents, they should have kept
the power station, more interesting! :-)
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> Seriously, art surely should be there to nip in and contemplate
>> for a few minutes or whatever. Not that it will get me anywhere
>> much.
>
>Go into the National Gallery next time you're in the area. Go directly
>to the room that has two Vermeers. Have a look at them for about 5
>minutes each, then you can leave. Tell me you don't feel anything! :)
OK, you're on, I've diarised it for my next dentist trip in
March. I reminded myself what Vermeers look like from the web, I
think I have seen those pictures or reproductions. Now you are
all going to tell me I need to see the originals? I imagine
that's one of the reasons a lot of people travel to these
museums. If the art is in the composition, the lighting and the
draftsmanship, why isn't a reproduction just as good? Friends
tell me I miss the brushstrokes that tell you the artist actually
worked on this canvas, but why does that matter?
I quite like Turner, especially ship in a snowstorm, and the
Impressionists but most stuff earlier just seems rather turgid
and most stuff afterwards I have little idea what's going on.
Abstract stuff is OK, or would be, if it wasn't hyped up so much.
A lot of artists now seem to say it isn't about beauty, if it
isn't about beauty and isn't an allegory, then what exactly is
the point? I did like some of the stuff in the Guggenheim Bilbao,
there's a double wall of cast iron, which makes great sounds as
you walk through, especially if you bash it, which seemed to be
allowed. However, the room full of mobiles you mustn't make move,
seemed a bit of a joke. OK, they must be damaged because they are
worth a mint, but how can they be appreciated stationary?
I think sculpture is much more accessible than painting.
(There's a really nice hotel opposite)
"http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/domine.htm"
and an interesting bridge :-)
"http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/bilbao1.htm"
but Bilbao doesn't seem the happiest town on the peninsula.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> LOL along with 1000 million others.
>
>I got it now! It's the painting that I think hangs in Onslow's house in
>Keeping up Appearances. A relative of mine had that hanging in here
>house!
that would probably be it, you can get it in Woolworths with a
nice classy frame. Then there's that tennis player scratching her
bum :-)
The Reid
>Do they all have such inspiring names as
>"woman holding a balance"?
Mostly domestic scenes, I'd probably appreciate "woman
undressing" or "Ferrari GTO" better :-)
IDMAABIKWIL!
>(I'd never heard of the guy?, I had to look him up)
I'm surprised, hes well known.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> I think it replaced 1950s flying ducks.
>
>I'm sure she had that too...
no, no. Flying ducks are a set of bas relief(?) plaster mallards
that you arrange across the wall (50s) very tasteful. I had a
comedy set of "flying pickets" in the 60s.
Des Small
> >Go into the National Gallery next time you're in the area. Go directly
> >to the room that has two Vermeers. Have a look at them for about 5
> >minutes each, then you can leave. Tell me you don't feel anything! :)
>
> OK, you're on, I've diarised it for my next dentist trip in
> March. I reminded myself what Vermeers look like from the web, I
> think I have seen those pictures or reproductions. Now you are
> all going to tell me I need to see the originals? I imagine
> that's one of the reasons a lot of people travel to these
> museums. If the art is in the composition, the lighting and the
> draftsmanship, why isn't a reproduction just as good?
The colours. Exactly why colours don't reproduce well is left as an
exercise to the sociopathic reader, but they don't come out at all the
same.
I saw Vermeer's "Lady at the virginals with a gentleman" at the
Queen's gallery, and it was more impressive than I'd expected.
I had a minor downer on Vermeer beforehand 'cos everyone's always
Vermeer this, Vermeer that, and I inflicted that wretched chicklit
book on myself a while back. "The girl with the pearl necklace" (in
Berlin) is good too, and "The girl with the pearl earring" is very
astonishing in person, especially given its iconic status.
Shame that "The girl with the peal stud in the unmentionables" got
lost, though.
Des
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >> Seriously, art surely should be there to nip in and contemplate
> >> for a few minutes or whatever. Not that it will get me anywhere
> >> much.
> >
> >Go into the National Gallery next time you're in the area. Go directly
> >to the room that has two Vermeers. Have a look at them for about 5
> >minutes each, then you can leave. Tell me you don't feel anything! :)
>
> OK, you're on, I've diarised it for my next dentist trip in
> March. I reminded myself what Vermeers look like from the web, I
> think I have seen those pictures or reproductions. Now you are
> all going to tell me I need to see the originals?
It usually is different. I enjoy looking at reproductions in books, and
I've looked at reproductions of Vermeers I haven't seen yet. (One of
them I'm not likely to, as it was stolen from Boston's Gardner Museum a
decade or so ago!) The experience of seeing the painting is quite
different usually.
These two in the NG are not large painting. I find them bewitching- the
subtle expression on both women depicted in each painting is fascinating
IMO.
> I imagine
> that's one of the reasons a lot of people travel to these
> museums. If the art is in the composition, the lighting and the
> draftsmanship, why isn't a reproduction just as good? Friends
> tell me I miss the brushstrokes that tell you the artist actually
> worked on this canvas, but why does that matter?
Because it affects the image. It really is different.
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> The Reid <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> writes:
[]
> > OK, you're on, I've diarised it for my next dentist trip in
> > March. I reminded myself what Vermeers look like from the web, I
> > think I have seen those pictures or reproductions. Now you are
> > all going to tell me I need to see the originals? I imagine
> > that's one of the reasons a lot of people travel to these
> > museums. If the art is in the composition, the lighting and the
> > draftsmanship, why isn't a reproduction just as good?
>
> The colours. Exactly why colours don't reproduce well is left as an
> exercise to the sociopathic reader, but they don't come out at all the
> same.
I'm using 4 paintings as 'inspiration' for a music composition workshop
series in Birmingham at the moment. I printed out some reductions for
everyone, and it was an exercise in ruining art! The Rothko in
particular was destroyed. Klee's Twittering Machine didn't suffer as
badly! :)
Des Small
> I'm using 4 paintings as 'inspiration' for a music composition workshop
> series in Birmingham at the moment. I printed out some reductions for
> everyone, and it was an exercise in ruining art! The Rothko in
> particular was destroyed.
Rothkos are all about scale and colour. They have miniature
reproductions in the toilets of the staff canteen at Bristle Uni,
which I assume is because someone on the staff loathes and despises
Rothko and all his works.
> Klee's Twittering Machine didn't suffer as badly! :)
Ah well, I've never really seen the point of Klee in the first place.
(An obsessive-compulsive Kandinsky? What on earth for?)
But there's a special kind of gloom associated only with browsing
the postcard racks in a really good art museum, for sure.
Des
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> this_address...@yahoo.com (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the
> duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy) writes:
>
> > I'm using 4 paintings as 'inspiration' for a music composition workshop
> > series in Birmingham at the moment. I printed out some reductions for
> > everyone, and it was an exercise in ruining art! The Rothko in
> > particular was destroyed.
>
> Rothkos are all about scale and colour.
Yes, exactly.
> They have miniature
> reproductions in the toilets of the staff canteen at Bristle Uni,
> which I assume is because someone on the staff loathes and despises
> Rothko and all his works.
Those reproductions seem popular in random places!
>
> > Klee's Twittering Machine didn't suffer as badly! :)
>
> Ah well, I've never really seen the point of Klee in the first place.
> (An obsessive-compulsive Kandinsky? What on earth for?)
I like Klee's sense of humour, and I think there's a wonderful sense of
composition and structure in much of his work. The Twittering Machine
has inspired quite a lot of music, including Birtwistle's wonderfully
titled Carmen Arcadiae Mechanicae Perpetuum.
> But there's a special kind of gloom associated only with browsing
> the postcard racks in a really good art museum, for sure.
It really cheapens ART, doesn't it! Says he, picking up his coffee cup
from the Vermeer coaster he bought at the KHM in Vienna earlier this
year.... :)
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
[]
> I like Turner too. The old Tate gallery, whatever it is called now has
> a good collection.
Tate Britain- specifically, the new Clore Gallery. Yes, it's excellent,
and free of course. I was there again a couple of days ago, just to look
at the Turners!
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:58:02 +0000, this_address...@yahoo.com
> (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
> prestwich tesco 24h offy) wrote:
>
>
> >> But there's a special kind of gloom associated only with browsing
> >> the postcard racks in a really good art museum, for sure.
> >
> >It really cheapens ART, doesn't it! Says he, picking up his coffee cup
> >from the Vermeer coaster he bought at the KHM in Vienna earlier this
> >year.... :)
>
> LOL!
> Odd it wasn't stuck to the bottom of your pint glass.
Well, it's always 5 o clock somewhere! What's the Markku time? :)
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> > I'm using 4 paintings as 'inspiration' for a music composition workshop
>> > series in Birmingham at the moment. I printed out some reductions for
>> > everyone, and it was an exercise in ruining art! The Rothko in
>> > particular was destroyed.
>>
>> Rothkos are all about scale and colour.
>
>Yes, exactly.
so a biggish reproduction, done to a decent standard of printing
wont convey whatever it is at all?
I'm not sure I can buy that small colour imperfections would make
a copy impossible to appreciate?
As for scale, if its only good big......I tend to have doubts
about my photos if the thumbnail lots dull.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>Tate Britain- specifically, the new Clore Gallery. Yes, it's excellent,
>and free of course. I was there again a couple of days ago, just to look
>at the Turners!
If only he had done more cars.
Des Small
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >> > I'm using 4 paintings as 'inspiration' for a music composition workshop
> >> > series in Birmingham at the moment. I printed out some reductions for
> >> > everyone, and it was an exercise in ruining art! The Rothko in
> >> > particular was destroyed.
> >>
> >> Rothkos are all about scale and colour.
> >
> >Yes, exactly.
>
> so a biggish reproduction, done to a decent standard of printing
> wont convey whatever it is at all?
Not really.
> I'm not sure I can buy that small colour imperfections would make
> a copy impossible to appreciate?
If you're seeing the Vermeers yourself, you can compare and contrast
later, isn't it?
> As for scale, if its only good big......I tend to have doubts
> about my photos if the thumbnail lots dull.
Some music only works loud; some paintings only work big.
Des
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >> > I'm using 4 paintings as 'inspiration' for a music composition workshop
> >> > series in Birmingham at the moment. I printed out some reductions for
> >> > everyone, and it was an exercise in ruining art! The Rothko in
> >> > particular was destroyed.
> >>
> >> Rothkos are all about scale and colour.
> >
> >Yes, exactly.
>
> so a biggish reproduction, done to a decent standard of printing
> wont convey whatever it is at all?
Rather than arguing about it you should try it. It's just not the same.
You can sometimes get _something_ out of a reproduction, but it's still
not the same.
> I'm not sure I can buy that small colour imperfections would make
> a copy impossible to appreciate?
Copies are not impossible to appreciate- but they're not the same.
> As for scale, if its only good big......I tend to have doubts
> about my photos if the thumbnail lots dull.
You're comparing apples and oranges!
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >Tate Britain- specifically, the new Clore Gallery. Yes, it's excellent,
> >and free of course. I was there again a couple of days ago, just to look
> >at the Turners!
>
> If only he had done more cars.
I was thinking of you when I chose "Rain, Steam and Speed" for the
workshops! :)
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> If only he had done more cars.
>
>I was thinking of you when I chose "Rain, Steam and Speed" for the
>workshops! :)
LOL. It will help any clandestine philistines!
Now the one thing that beats a car is a steam engine, I actually
did a painting of a steam engine in my youth, as I'm waiting for
a fridge to be delivered, I shall photograph it and post a link!
So there:-
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/wastedgenius.htm"
That took about 15 minutes, it still amazes me how quick it is
now to make a reasonably decent image and transmit it to
whereever you want it. (notice I said make not take, i'm in art
mode now).
Of course as its a photographic reproduction, you lose the
brushstrokes and impasto present in the original but you can
still see the way the artist has avoiding painting all the
difficult bits by copious use of steam. Was Turner up to the same
trick? I mrean, its much harder to paint it properly (Only
joking).
When you said about inspiring music from painting I thought that
would never work for me, but R S S would, if I had any idea how
to write music, which I havent.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>> so a biggish reproduction, done to a decent standard of printing
>> wont convey whatever it is at all?
>
>Rather than arguing about it you should try it. It's just not the same.
>You can sometimes get _something_ out of a reproduction, but it's still
>not the same.
I have been to art galleries, I'm more skeptic than straight
philistine.
>> I'm not sure I can buy that small colour imperfections would make
>> a copy impossible to appreciate?
>
>Copies are not impossible to appreciate- but they're not the same.
They are not exactly the same, but copies have gone undetected on
occasion. Obviously not photographic ones.If the artist had
painted the picture again it would have been different.
The pictures I can appreciate, say, mountain landscapes done in a
"modern" reasonably imaginative style, usually watercolours
(bugger, I sound like Charles R) get the message across in
reproduction and as originals, the original is nice because its
exactly as the artist intended, luck aside. But the difference to
me isn't crucial.
>> As for scale, if its only good big......I tend to have doubts
>> about my photos if the thumbnail lots dull.
>
>You're comparing apples and oranges!
OK, perhaps this is a crucial area. Why is a painting different
from a photograph in the context of size?
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >> If only he had done more cars.
> >
> >I was thinking of you when I chose "Rain, Steam and Speed" for the
> >workshops! :)
>
> LOL. It will help any clandestine philistines!
> Now the one thing that beats a car is a steam engine, I actually
> did a painting of a steam engine in my youth, as I'm waiting for
> a fridge to be delivered, I shall photograph it and post a link!
> So there:-
> "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/wastedgenius.htm"
> That took about 15 minutes, it still amazes me how quick it is
> now to make a reasonably decent image and transmit it to
> whereever you want it.
Indeed, and very nice it is too. I'm viewing it from a train travelling
at around 80 mph!
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Following up to David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of
> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
>
> >> so a biggish reproduction, done to a decent standard of printing
> >> wont convey whatever it is at all?
> >
> >Rather than arguing about it you should try it. It's just not the same.
> >You can sometimes get _something_ out of a reproduction, but it's still
> >not the same.
>
> I have been to art galleries, I'm more skeptic than straight
> philistine.
>
> >> I'm not sure I can buy that small colour imperfections would make
> >> a copy impossible to appreciate?
> >
> >Copies are not impossible to appreciate- but they're not the same.
>
> They are not exactly the same, but copies have gone undetected on
> occasion.
I thought you were referring to photographic reproductions! If a copy
was good enough, I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference- but
I don't consider mysefl any kind of expert. I reckon if you put the copy
side by side with the original, it would be easier to detect
differences.
[]
> >> As for scale, if its only good big......I tend to have doubts
> >> about my photos if the thumbnail lots dull.
> >
> >You're comparing apples and oranges!
>
> OK, perhaps this is a crucial area. Why is a painting different
> from a photograph in the context of size?
Well of course, photographers will often argue there is an ideal size
for viewing certain kinds of prints, and some are very protective over
their images in that regard. I think there are many factors, but the
physical nature of the medium (paint, etc.) has a lot to do with it. As
Des mentioned, in certain art the sense of scale is very important. When
that's changed in a reproduction, there's an inevitable loss. Even with
a photograph, you have to make a distinction between a thumbnail looking
pleasing, and the range of sizes (not necessarily fixed) in which the
image will have an optimal size. Some artists do reproduce well though.
I'll go out on a philistine wing and say that some Dali works better in
reproduction than the originals do... :)