First Trip To Italy, any suggestions?
mzldc
go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from northern
Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
louisa
buy an illustrated guidebook -- read it -- THEN ask questions people can
actually answer -- all we know about you is that you are lazy, don't know
anything about Italy, and are not interested in some of the most stunning
things the country has to offer. If you ask more specific questions or
indicate what it is that you find interesting, then people might be able
to be useful.
Laurent
>
> Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on where to
> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
> besides churches in Italy to see?
What about roman temple after roman temple after roman temple?
MHS
>> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
>> Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
>
>buy an illustrated guidebook -- read it -- THEN ask questions people can
>actually answer -- all we know about you is that you are lazy, don't know
>anything about Italy, and are not interested in some of the most stunning
>things the country has to offer. If you ask more specific questions or
>indicate what it is that you find interesting, then people might be able
>to be useful.
>
Bingo, and if the post is an example of their intellectual curiosity, I would
suggest they not go.
MHS
J J MIO
board. Many travelers write in this way in order to learn from the experiences
of others.
The assumption that you are lazy is a rude comment and I think you will find
others more understanding
Jack (California)
d b
voicing likes and dislikes and that should help us answer their questions more
effectively.
Learn a little tact ----it will get you much farther.
djb
louisa wrote:
> In article <#$TwfL1HAHA.320@cpmsnbbsa09>, "mzldc" <mz...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
Alan R Zeleznikar
wrote:
> Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on
> where to go? We do not like looking at church after church after
> church...anything besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it
> feasible to go from northern Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
Well, I had a pretty great time in Italy last year and there were some
days where I didn't come close to a church.
Check out my site if you want:
Mike
Mike
posts that aren't within their annal criteria. I'm used it to. Rude yes,
helpful no. Why they don't just ignore posts that "rub them the wrong way"
is beyond me. Funny is they accuse the poster of being lazy when in fact
they are lazy and expect clean cut questions and can't handle posts that may
inhibit their own creative juices, my assumption is they have none?
Now to answer the original post. Yes there's much to see beyond the
numerous and glorious churches. I'll assume from your post you'll be in NW
Italy at least for part of your trip. Eat.....you'll be in Liguria...great
cuisine, one of the finest. Good side trips would be Portofino, Cinque
Terre, the five towns perched over the Med, very picturesque. If you have
the time to hit further south, Lucca, Pisa, Volterra, San Giminango are
great stops, not all churches but interesting towns to just walk about and
soak up the area.
Yes, its most feasible to go to Monaco from Northern Italy, there's the E80
autostrada (all good road, but twisty even so and tunnel, bridge, tunnel
bridge) or you can take the coastal highway, make that twistier but more
scenic and of course slower. Or you can take the train. Depending on where
in No. Italy would depend on whether you need to factor an overnight stay in
Monaco or nearby.
Best of luck, you'll very much enjoy Italy and possibly France/Monaco.
Mike
d b <dan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39C2AE86...@earthlink.net...
> What a nasty response that was----not necessary either. The poster was
already
> voicing likes and dislikes and that should help us answer their questions
more
> effectively.
>
> Learn a little tact ----it will get you much farther.
>
>
>
> djb
>
> louisa wrote:
>
> > In article <#$TwfL1HAHA.320@cpmsnbbsa09>, "mzldc" <mz...@email.msn.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on
where to
> > > go? We do not like looking at church after church after
church...anything
> > > besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from
northern
> > > Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
> >
Karl Baer
mzldc <mz...@email.msn.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
#$TwfL1HAHA.320@cpmsnbbsa09...
> Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on where
to
> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
> besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from
northern
> Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
>
>
I visited Italy (Tuscany, Siena, Florence) this year. A wonderful region to
travel! You find some pictures (with thumbnails) on this link:
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/karl.baer/reisen/toscana/thumb.htm
Greetings, Karl Baer
-----------------------------------------------------------
My Homepage:
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/karl.baer/
------------------------------------------------------------
MHS
>> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
>> besides churches in Italy to see?
>Oh geez, these people, Louisa, MHS and Laurent spent their life in search of
>posts that aren't within their annal criteria. I'm used it to. Rude yes,
>helpful no.
What a load of crap. The original poster, if you read it, had done absolutely
no work or research. "Any suggestions on where to go". You gotta be kidding me.
The first rule of this and all NGs is the poster is expected to do at least a
little work before posting. Asinine questions such as they posted are rude to
the NG and if they get slapped back, they deserve it.
MHS
mzldc
where most pages are centered around churches; hence, my impression is that
Italy is all about churches. When we were in Paris, we visited many
churches including Notre Dame and Sacre Couer; however, when one is of a
religion (other than Christian, etc), then no matter what is inside the
church (art work or whatever), they do not have much meaning, hence we
venture to find other interesting things to do with our time. That was the
original intent of my question, to find out what else Italy has to offer,
ie, culture and countryside.
"louisa" <loui...@homeplc.com> wrote in message
news:louisawd-150...@a198193.n1.vanderbilt.edu...
> In article <#$TwfL1HAHA.320@cpmsnbbsa09>, "mzldc" <mz...@email.msn.com>
wrote:
>
> > Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on where
to
> > go? We do not like looking at church after church after
church...anything
> > besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from
northern
> > Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
>
mzldc
mzldc
devil
>
> Contrary to your ignorant answer, I am not lazy, and I have read guide books
> where most pages are centered around churches; hence, my impression is that
> Italy is all about churches. When we were in Paris, we visited many
> churches including Notre Dame and Sacre Couer; however, when one is of a
> religion (other than Christian, etc), then no matter what is inside the
> church (art work or whatever), they do not have much meaning, hence we
> venture to find other interesting things to do with our time. That was the
> original intent of my question, to find out what else Italy has to offer,
> ie, culture and countryside.
I am not sure I agree 100% with the statement that if you are of another
religion, then it follows that churches have no real meaning.
I thonk visiting, say, these major gothic cathedrals across Europe, the
overwhelming feeling you get is about the magnitude of the
effort/expenditures put into these things. Hence the power of the
church/bishops. And how life must have been different and scary, with
no science, all ghosts and superstitions and an evil good playing with
your life and death. And an all-powerful Church that manipulated the
process ensuring its own fortune, luxury and depradation. I guess a
good deal of relief that we don't live in such a dark age :-).
Considering that a great many of them were started within a ten/twenty
years period, it's pretty obvious that they were mainly the bishop's
status symbol. And that there was "healthy" competition between them.
With the result that a huge fraction of these countries' resources ended
up being directed at these white elephants which today provide wonderful
(if somewhat scary) symbols of past times. Just consider how many
people must have died building each of these cathedrals. And that
today, they can't even afford maintaining/restoring many of them.
In summary, I would argue that many of these places are well worth
visiting. Particularly if you do your homework and if you put them in
the proper historical context.
(Although I could conceive that Italy may be somewhat different, with
more stuff from the Renaissance and more roman stuff.)
Robert Buxbaum
>I have read guide books
>where most pages are centered around churches; hence, my impression is that
>Italy is all about churches. When we were in Paris, we visited many
>churches including Notre Dame and Sacre Couer; however, when one is of a
>religion (other than Christian, etc), then no matter what is inside the
>church (art work or whatever), they do not have much meaning, hence we
>venture to find other interesting things to do with our time. That was the
>original intent of my question, to find out what else Italy has to offer,
>ie, culture and countryside.
I have to ask why you want to go to Italy if you do't know what it has to
offer besides those things that do not interest you. I think it's usually
very difficult for anyone to tell a stranger what to do or see if we're
totally unfamiliar with that person.
As for the need to be Christian to understand the meaning of Italian church
art or architecture, I have to disagree. There are countless art historians
who are not Christian. I have to admit that my preteenage daughter
expressed much the same opinion as you do when we traveled in France. "Dad,
why do you go to so many churches when you have no insterest in the
religion?" - or something to that effect. As I aanswered her, these are the
concrete evidences of what the people thought and did in this land during
it's history. I'm no more, or less, interested in the domestic,
governmental or military architecture or arts, but one has toounderstand
that the church was the major patron of the arts for centuries. To
understand the people and their history, you need a familiarity with their
beliefs and customs as well. In Japan I toured Shinto shrines and Bhuddist
temples, although I share little or no common interest with believers. Back
to Italy, Giotto, Michaelangelo, Bernini, Da Vinci and the lot of creative
Gothic and Renaissance people, their contribution to the thinking and
creative expression, although largely under the patronage of the church, is
studied today by most abstract artists and corporate architects.
Nevertheless, you will find museums of great note with collections of great
interest to those who cannot bear to look at religious art. You will find
in Tuscany great palaces. I'm not sure if you mean "culture" to be spelled
with a captial "c" or not.
Certainly every land has it's geography and customs that even in this age of
jet planes, tv and the Internet, offer a different view. I can justify a
day spent anyplace in the world by walking new streets, sitting in a local
bar, cafe or park and having an exquisite dinner, particularly if that
dinner is of food that is different from, or better than, what I can eat at
home.
I suppose the urge to travel is both part restlessness and the urge to just
move, and part interest in a particular place. What is it about Italy that
interests you? Find that out and build on that.
--
<www.worldtable.com> Food/Wine/Travel
-
new offer for car rental and leasing in Europe
posted 21 June 2000
Robert Buxbaum
wrote:
>Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on where to
>go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
>besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from northern
>Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
>
I've replied elsewhere to later post in this thread about what to see in
Italy, but I forgot to include any comment on Monaco. Why do you want to
visit Monaco? IMHO, it's not one of the most interesting places in the area
of the Italian or French Rivieras. I suppose this touches on my other reply
about why one chooses any place to visit.
Laurent
>
> Oh geez, these people, Louisa, MHS and Laurent spent their life in search of
> posts that aren't within their annal criteria. I'm used it to.
Could you give me some examples of my numerous "anal
retentive" posts?
Funny is they accuse the poster of being lazy
Did I write that?
when in fact
> they are lazy and expect clean cut questions and can't handle posts that may
> inhibit their own creative juices, my assumption is they have none?
>
It's possible. Seems you have enough of them yourself, at
least in the field of had nominem attacks.
Reinhard Jellinek
4.634 mt, definitely no churches.
"mzldc" <mz...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:#$TwfL1HAHA.320@cpmsnbbsa09...
Reinhard Jellinek
> however, when one is of a
> religion (other than Christian, etc), then no matter what is inside the
> church (art work or whatever), they do not have much meaning,
I´m a Christian and have been very much impressed by the mosques in
Istanbul.
Pietro Carena
<a860...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
As a matter of a fact there is a church (a chappel) even there, close
to the Capanna Gnifetti at 3630 mt.
A little higher (4100) there is a statue of Jesus (Cristo delle
Vette).
Pietro Carena
louisa
<a860...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
but then apparently you are not a clueless egocentric dweeb
Reinhard Jellinek
snow-storm so that we could see no more than 20 mt.
The next time I´ll watch for it. Is the chapel gothic?
So this will again be not in the line for fellow "mzldc".
"Pietro Carena" <car...@libero.it> wrote in message
news:39c3b55f...@news.libero.it...
Robert Buxbaum
loui...@homeplc.com (louisa) wrote:
Not nice to call anyone that, however I am not a Christian and I recall a
very nice Christmas eve spent in Vienna as our hostess took us on a tour of
churches and services. Some were visited for the spectacle of the service,
some for the quality of the music and at least one, specifically to observe
the finery of the attendees at that particular service where certain members
a certain social set arrived to show off their latest furs and jewelry.
Pietro Carena
<a860...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>I´m terrible sorry. When I visited Gnifetti two years ago there was an awful
>snow-storm so that we could see no more than 20 mt.
>The next time I´ll watch for it. Is the chapel gothic?
>
Not really, indeed.
Something less than a shack.
Pietro Carena
Mike Harrel
do at least minimal research. Expand a bit: "I'm going to Europe.
what should I see?" Generic questions don't deserve answers!
Mike Harrel
Dame or Chartres. Also, the blue Mosque and Sancta Sofia in Istanbul,
rank among the most impressive sites I've seen. To bypass these
monumonts because you don't agree with the religion is one of the most
narrow minded statements I've ever heard.
hamilton
<CB156CD4CD7A81CC.D3A116B4...@lp.airnews.net>,
obi...@airmail.net wrote:
> I absolutely agree with MHS & Laurent. A poster should be expected to
> do at least minimal research. Expand a bit: "I'm going to Europe.
> what should I see?" Generic questions don't deserve answers!
>
> Mike wrote:
> >
> > Oh geez, these people, Louisa, MHS and Laurent spent their life in search of
> > posts that aren't within their annal criteria. I'm used it to. Rude yes,
> > helpful no. Why they don't just ignore posts that "rub them the wrong way"
> > is beyond me. Funny is they accuse the poster of being lazy when in fact
> > they are lazy and expect clean cut questions and can't handle posts that may
> > inhibit their own creative juices, my assumption is they have none?
oh give it a rest -- any gonk who says 'I want to take a vacation
somewhere, where do you think I should go?' deserves any response they get
-- no one knows anything about their tastes [it wasn't 'I love tatting and
ping pong and antique umbrellas where should I go']
such f333wittedness is to be discouraged and congrats to those who did so
-- and why are you expending your creative juices on someone too dull to
ask an intelligent question. Why would you think your tastes would match
his?
mzldc
a WARNING to any newbies who Dare to pose a question to this newsgroup:
BEWARE of the harsh, critisisms of your post... According to MHS, you must
abide by the "The first rule of this and all NGs" which is "the poster is
expected to do at least a little work before posting." (I need to get me a
copy of the rule book). And to the hippocritical Louisa, who in an earlier
post (regarding communication with a farmer in France using hand gestures)
made a comment of the benefits of politeness and consideration in a foreign
country, shows none of these virtues in her response to my post,
irregardless of the simplistic nature of the questions posed.
hamilton
It seems to me that she demonstrated precisely the response one would get
in a foreign country if one were rude -- i.e. a perfect object lesson.
What could be more egocentric and f#$@witted than the poster's question?
mastermix
"mzldc" <mz...@email.msn.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag...
> Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on where
to
> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
> besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from
northern
> Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
There is a certain negative *undertone* between the lines of
your post. This may be an *Affront* to someone who loves this
country,IMHO. Especially when it comes from somebody
who's never visited Italy before. This explains (to me) the aggressive
answers you received.
Nevertheless, here is a first trip suggestion:
If you start in Milano Malpensa Airport go to the Lago Maggiore Region:
Stresa, with its islands Isola Bella, Isola Pescatori and Isola Madre,
from there you may go down south pass by Allessandria to (Riviera Ligure
della Palme) Liguria:
Finale Ligure, Albenga, Allassio, Imperia, San Remo all wonderful places,
Liguria is known for itsfood specialities, dont miss them(Best Pesto alla
Genovese!) Monte-Carlo comes next. It is clean but only worth
a look, the next door village of "dirty" France is much more charming.
See St Tropez if you've never been there, its worth it.
Go back to Ventemilia,It. and over the Colla di Tenda (pass) to Cuneo
on the way back north and there you have the famous
piemonte wine region (there are 18 well-known wine regions in It.)
in front of you (BAROLO!) Asti, Alba and more ; the village "la Morra" is a
must!
See or pass Torino on the way back to Milano.
This is only a small part of *Bella Italia*.
Regards---mm
Robert Buxbaum
>a WARNING to any newbies who Dare to pose a question to this newsgroup:
>BEWARE of the harsh, critisisms of your post... According to MHS, you must
>abide by the "The first rule of this and all NGs" which is "the poster is
>expected to do at least a little work before posting." (I need to get me a
>copy of the rule book). And to the hippocritical Louisa, who in an earlier
>post (regarding communication with a farmer in France using hand gestures)
>made a comment of the benefits of politeness and consideration in a foreign
>country, shows none of these virtues in her response to my post,
>irregardless of the simplistic nature of the questions posed.
Perhaps, but it seems you agree that her judgement on horses is quite
without pretense. As much as I share the position that there are no dumb
questions I have to believe that if all posts are allowed, all responses are
too. If the poster demands protections against replies, well that aplies to
the reply as well. Of course that allows all sorts of responses on the
third level. This is indeed a third level reply.
hamilton
<b...@worldtable.com> wrote:
LOL good response --
Me
to
> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
> besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from
northern
> Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
You explained what you're not interested in seeing, but you gave
no clue about what you are interested in seeing. I suggest you buy
one of the many travel guidebooks for Italy to get some ideas.
Gene Kasprzyk
Gene Kasprzyk
Iceman
mzldc wrote:
> Am considering a first trip to Italy next year, any suggestions on where to
> go? We do not like looking at church after church after church...anything
> besides churches in Italy to see? Also, is it feasible to go from northern
> Italy over to Monaco, and if so, how?
Florence, Rome, and Venice are musts. Venice is a unique and beautiful city,
and you should definitely see the Doge's Palace. If you are interested, there
are many traditional craft shops with glassblowers and lacemakers. Rome needs
no explanation. If I can convince you to see *one* church, it would be the
Sistine Chapel. Also, the Forum, Colosseum, and many other Roman ruins there.
If you like to just stroll around or chill in a cafe it is a great place for
that. Florence has the Uffizi Gallery, one of the foremost museums in the
world, and has many leather shops. The food in Italy is quite good. Unlike
France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well for $20-30 US.
There are regional specialties in the cuisine that you should look out for and
try.
Pisa can be skipped - the Leaning Tower really isn't that impressive..
Beyond that, a lot will depend on your interests - wine regions, ancient ruins,
small hill towns, famous opera houses - Italy is a large and varied country.
Monaco and Nice/Cannes on the French Riviera are right over the border and are
well worth seeing. I suggest you take the train. Monaco won't take you more
than 1 day/night to see. Tour the Palace if it's open, see the casino, and
definitely eat in one of the fine restaurants there. (Louis XV - one of the
world's ten best restaurants is there, if your budget permits.)
Iceman
"Feel like I'm gonna drown..."
-Juliana Hatfield
Robert Buxbaum
eventually form your own or trust one of many options that are poles apart.
In article <39CA574F...@yahoo.com>, Iceman <drub...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>The food in Italy is quite good.
No argument there.
>Unlike France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well
>for $20-30 US.
Although I've been kown to bemoan the decline in French cooking over the
years, it's not that hard to eat well enough even at that price in Paris and
certainly in the provinces if you do a little research and use common sense.
>Pisa can be skipped - the Leaning Tower really isn't that impressive..
For all it's lack of impressiveness and for all the banality of the use of
its image over the years, there's always something satisfying in seeing such
an icon up close and for real.
>Monaco and Nice/Cannes on the French Riviera are right over the border and
>are well worth seeing.
Monaco has the same sort of appeal as the Leaning Tower of Pisa, only to a
lesser degree for me. YMMV. Nice, I thoroughly enjoyed.
devil
>
> No flames, but it's always fascinating how opinions vary and why you must
> eventually form your own or trust one of many options that are poles apart.
>
> In article <39CA574F...@yahoo.com>, Iceman <drub...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The food in Italy is quite good.
>
> No argument there.
>
> >Unlike France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well
> >for $20-30 US.
>
> Although I've been kown to bemoan the decline in French cooking over the
> years, it's not that hard to eat well enough even at that price in Paris and
> certainly in the provinces if you do a little research and use common sense.
Assuming you include wine, I would say, only on a lucky day. (OK, I
suppose if you do your homework, with proper advice or knowing the area,
it might be different. But on the road, it gets harder, and I would
add, even using the Michelin guide.)
OTOH, one of the best meals we had in Italy was in a hole in the wall,
not far from the Colosseum. Actually it took some courage to try it,
the way the place looked.
We also had a wonderful pizza somewhere in the mountains, out of the
beaten path, south of Naples. Outdoors, with cats roaming around. Even
the oven was outdoors.
Iceman
>
> No argument there.
Most "Italian" restaurants in the US serve *South* Italian cuisine, so many
first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities will be somewhat suprised
by the food that is served.
> >Unlike France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well
> >for $20-30 US.
>
> Although I've been kown to bemoan the decline in French cooking over the
> years, it's not that hard to eat well enough even at that price in Paris and
> certainly in the provinces if you do a little research and use common sense.
I disagree with respect to Paris and traditional French food. I agree that in
the provinces that price is reasonable. If you want a solid prix fixe
multicourse dinner in Paris that includes wine, it will set you back at least US
$40-50, even at a bistro. Personally, I ate at several bistros affiliated with
"name" chefs on my last trip to Paris. The quality was good, but not
spectacular. I would recommend that someone on a similar budget eat
inexpensively for most meals and save up to go to one or two of Paris' very best
restaurants. Of course, Paris has creperies and ethnic restaurants many of which
have excellent food and are quite affordable. Moroccan, Vietnamese, and Greek
places are everywhere, although I was focused on French food in Paris partially
since those cuisines are accessible to me at home in New York. I only went to
those when I was with French people who wanted to go there.
> >Pisa can be skipped - the Leaning Tower really isn't that impressive..
>
> For all it's lack of impressiveness and for all the banality of the use of
> its image over the years, there's always something satisfying in seeing such
> an icon up close and for real.
Yes and no. For someone with limited time, I would definitely say to skip it. It
isn't worth a detour IMHO, although many others will disagree. Pisa in the
summer can be somewhat unpleasant - 100 degreee heat, dense crowds, and
literally hundreds of peddlers surround the tower area.
> >Monaco and Nice/Cannes on the French Riviera are right over the border and
> >are well worth seeing.
>
> Monaco has the same sort of appeal as the Leaning Tower of Pisa, only to a
> lesser degree for me. YMMV. Nice, I thoroughly enjoyed.
I'm a major Formula-1 fan, so I had to see Monaco. I also wanted to see the
casino from all the James Bond movies. It's very beautiful, although as I said,
there isn't much there. Nice is the quintessential Mediterranean city, both in
architecture and atmosphere. Don't miss the bouillabaise.
devil
>
> > >The food in Italy is quite good.
> >
> > No argument there.
>
> Most "Italian" restaurants in the US serve *South* Italian cuisine, so many
> first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities will be somewhat suprised
> by the food that is served.
Are you sure there is any relationship at all between what "Italian"
restaurants serve you in the US and the real thing :-)?
Isn't calling themselves Italian just a cheap marketing ploy :-)?
(Seriously, at least until the recent drop in the Euro, I believe there
were many places in the US where, for a budget of around $120 to $140
for two, with wine, you would typically eat better in the US than in
France. Places such as Boulder, DC, the East Bay, and, I am sure many
others that I am not so familiar with.)
Robert Buxbaum
wrote:
>> >The food in Italy is quite good.
>>
>> No argument there.
>
>Most "Italian" restaurants in the US serve *South* Italian cuisine, so many
>first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities will be somewhat
>suprised by the food that is served.
I'm not even sure it's real south Italian food, but I don't recall being
surprised by the food in northern Italy. my expectations may not be shared
by most travelers.
>> >Unlike France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well
>> >for $20-30 US.
>>
>> Although I've been kown to bemoan the decline in French cooking over the
>> years, it's not that hard to eat well enough even at that price in Paris
>> and
>> certainly in the provinces if you do a little research and use common
>> sense.
>
>I disagree with respect to Paris and traditional French food. I agree that
>in
>the provinces that price is reasonable. If you want a solid prix fixe
>multicourse dinner in Paris that includes wine, it will set you back at
>least US
>$40-50, even at a bistro.
I haven't been in Italy in a few years and truthfully am not prepared to
speak of costs there or of comparative costs. I know one can eat superbly
and even experience haute cuisine in Paris for 200 france with tax and
service, but you are correct, that is unlikely to include wine. 200 francs
would be less than thirty dollars, but a good bottle of wine split between
two would add another ten dollars a person.
I will also agree that one may need to take less care about where one
chooses to eat in Italy than in France. Although I find French food
generally more interesting, I find I'm less likely to run into a really
disappointing meal in Italy, especially in the less expensive restaurants.
>Personally, I ate at several bistros affiliated
>with
>"name" chefs on my last trip to Paris. The quality was good, but not
>spectacular. I would recommend that someone on a similar budget eat
>inexpensively for most meals and save up to go to one or two of Paris' very
>best
>restaurants. Of course, Paris has creperies and ethnic restaurants many of
>which
>have excellent food and are quite affordable. Moroccan, Vietnamese, and
>Greek
>places are everywhere, although I was focused on French food in Paris
>partially
>since those cuisines are accessible to me at home in New York. I only went
>to
>those when I was with French people who wanted to go there.
Creperies are French food, although there are far less rewarding in Paris
than they are in Brittany.
>> >Pisa can be skipped - the Leaning Tower really isn't that impressive..
>>
>> For all it's lack of impressiveness and for all the banality of the use of
>> its image over the years, there's always something satisfying in seeing
>> such
>> an icon up close and for real.
>
>Yes and no. For someone with limited time, I would definitely say to skip
>it. It
>isn't worth a detour IMHO, although many others will disagree. Pisa in the
>summer can be somewhat unpleasant - 100 degreee heat, dense crowds, and
>literally hundreds of peddlers surround the tower area.
I agreed it was unimpressive and "yes and no" fits my rebuttal quite well.
We have no argument here. ;-)
>> >Monaco and Nice/Cannes on the French Riviera are right over the border
>> >and are well worth seeing.
>>
>> Monaco has the same sort of appeal as the Leaning Tower of Pisa, only to a
>> lesser degree for me. YMMV. Nice, I thoroughly enjoyed.
>
>I'm a major Formula-1 fan, so I had to see Monaco. I also wanted to see the
>casino from all the James Bond movies. It's very beautiful, although as I
>said,
>there isn't much there. Nice is the quintessential Mediterranean city, both
>in
>architecture and atmosphere. Don't miss the bouillabaise.
Whenever we have some image of a place already in our mind, it's fascinating
to see the real thing. That's what I said about Pisa and it applies to
every foreign city we've ever enjoyed in the cinema. I really enjoy seeing
cities I've visited in real life shown on the screen and being able to
identify with the location as well as visiting those places I've already
experienced vicariously through a film or event. A cheap thrill no doubt
and not a major reason to travel perhaps, but the pleasure is there.
I didn't really have great fault with your post, just interested to
presenting an alternative side.
Robert Buxbaum
wrote:
>Robert Buxbaum wrote:
>>
>> No flames, but it's always fascinating how opinions vary and why you must
>> eventually form your own or trust one of many options that are poles
>> apart.
>>
>> In article <39CA574F...@yahoo.com>, Iceman <drub...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The food in Italy is quite good.
>>
>> No argument there.
>>
>> >Unlike France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well
>> >for $20-30 US.
>>
>> Although I've been kown to bemoan the decline in French cooking over the
>> years, it's not that hard to eat well enough even at that price in Paris
>> and
>> certainly in the provinces if you do a little research and use common
>> sense.
>
>Assuming you include wine, I would say, only on a lucky day. (OK, I
>suppose if you do your homework, with proper advice or knowing the area,
>it might be different. But on the road, it gets harder, and I would
>add, even using the Michelin guide.)
I hadn't included wine, although it could be done, if with a great deal of
care and research. Unfortunately, it does get easier each year to find bad
food in Paris when eating on a budget. That's been a sad fact. There was a
time when one couldn't get a bad meal in Paris without visiting a student
cafeteria. It's not so true today.
>OTOH, one of the best meals we had in Italy was in a hole in the wall,
>not far from the Colosseum. Actually it took some courage to try it,
>the way the place looked.
>
>We also had a wonderful pizza somewhere in the mountains, out of the
>beaten path, south of Naples. Outdoors, with cats roaming around. Even
>the oven was outdoors.
One of the best pizzas I've ever had was outdoors - in Gascony and from the
side of a truck with a wood burning oven. Not sure what that proves. I
wouldn't go to Gascony for pizza, but good food is ultimately where you find
it.
Ken Blake
news:39CACC45...@yahoo.com...
> Most "Italian" restaurants in the US serve *South* Italian
cuisine, so many
> first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities will
be somewhat suprised
> by the food that is served.
In my experience, very nearly *all* "Italian" restaurants in
the US serve neither southern nor northern Italian food. I
find "Italian" food in the US to be almost completely unlike
anything I've had anywhere in Italy--and I've been in Italy
some dozen times, from the north to the far south.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup.
Barbara Vaughan
Ken Blake wrote:
>
> "Iceman" <drub...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:39CACC45...@yahoo.com...
>
> > Most "Italian" restaurants in the US serve *South* Italian
> cuisine, so many
> > first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities will
> be somewhat suprised
> > by the food that is served.
>
> In my experience, very nearly *all* "Italian" restaurants in
> the US serve neither southern nor northern Italian food. I
> find "Italian" food in the US to be almost completely unlike
> anything I've had anywhere in Italy--and I've been in Italy
> some dozen times, from the north to the far south.
There are some good authentic Italian restaurants in the US, but the
ubiquitious "spaghetti and meatball, garlic bread, and veal scallopine"
place, which most American people have experienced, doesn't serve
Italian food.
Barbara
Iceman
> >>
> >> No argument there.
> >
> >Most "Italian" restaurants in the US serve *South* Italian cuisine, so many
> >first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities will be somewhat
> >suprised by the food that is served.
>
> surprised by the food in northern Italy. my expectations may not be shared
> by most travelers.
Most Americans will find the food in Northern Italy different than the "Italian"
food they're used to. If you have travelled frequently, or if your community
contains more authentic regional Italian restaurants (New York and Boston
certainly do), that won't be the case.
> >> >Unlike France (please don't flame me for this), you can eat quite well
> >> >for $20-30 US.
> >>
> >> Although I've been kown to bemoan the decline in French cooking over the
> >> years, it's not that hard to eat well enough even at that price in Paris
> >> and
> >> certainly in the provinces if you do a little research and use common
> >> sense.
> >
> >I disagree with respect to Paris and traditional French food. I agree that
> >in
> >the provinces that price is reasonable. If you want a solid prix fixe
> >multicourse dinner in Paris that includes wine, it will set you back at
> >least US
> >$40-50, even at a bistro.
>
> I haven't been in Italy in a few years and truthfully am not prepared to
> speak of costs there or of comparative costs. I know one can eat superbly
> and even experience haute cuisine in Paris for 200 france with tax and
> service, but you are correct, that is unlikely to include wine. 200 francs
> would be less than thirty dollars, but a good bottle of wine split between
> two would add another ten dollars a person.
>
> I will also agree that one may need to take less care about where one
> chooses to eat in Italy than in France. Although I find French food
> generally more interesting, I find I'm less likely to run into a really
> disappointing meal in Italy, especially in the less expensive restaurants.
I agree. My experiences with French food varied greatly, even among restaurants
of similar rating and price. In Italy, it isn't hard to find a very good
restaurant, although you won't find anything truly spectacular.
> >Personally, I ate at several bistros affiliated
> >with
> >"name" chefs on my last trip to Paris. The quality was good, but not
> >spectacular. I would recommend that someone on a similar budget eat
> >inexpensively for most meals and save up to go to one or two of Paris' very
> >best
> >restaurants. Of course, Paris has creperies and ethnic restaurants many of
> >which
> >have excellent food and are quite affordable. Moroccan, Vietnamese, and
> >Greek
> >places are everywhere,
The Latin Quarter has many Greek restaurants!
> although I was focused on French food in Paris
> >partially
> >since those cuisines are accessible to me at home in New York. I only went
> >to
> >those when I was with French people who wanted to go there.
>
> Creperies are French food, although there are far less rewarding in Paris
> than they are in Brittany.
Creperies are very French, and as you said, they are more Breton than Parisian. I
love the flaming dessert crepes.
> >> >Pisa can be skipped - the Leaning Tower really isn't that impressive..
> >>
> >> For all it's lack of impressiveness and for all the banality of the use of
> >> its image over the years, there's always something satisfying in seeing
> >> such
> >> an icon up close and for real.
> >
> >Yes and no. For someone with limited time, I would definitely say to skip
> >it. It
> >isn't worth a detour IMHO, although many others will disagree. Pisa in the
> >summer can be somewhat unpleasant - 100 degreee heat, dense crowds, and
> >literally hundreds of peddlers surround the tower area.
>
> I agreed it was unimpressive and "yes and no" fits my rebuttal quite well.
> We have no argument here. ;-)
Especially not at the expense of seeing the Riviera or spending an extra day in
Rome.
> >> >Monaco and Nice/Cannes on the French Riviera are right over the border
> >> >and are well worth seeing.
> >>
> >> Monaco has the same sort of appeal as the Leaning Tower of Pisa, only to a
> >> lesser degree for me. YMMV. Nice, I thoroughly enjoyed.
> >
> >I'm a major Formula-1 fan, so I had to see Monaco. I also wanted to see the
> >casino from all the James Bond movies. It's very beautiful, although as I
> >said,
> >there isn't much there. Nice is the quintessential Mediterranean city, both
> >in
> >architecture and atmosphere. Don't miss the bouillabaise.
>
> Whenever we have some image of a place already in our mind, it's fascinating
> to see the real thing. That's what I said about Pisa and it applies to
> every foreign city we've ever enjoyed in the cinema. I really enjoy seeing
> cities I've visited in real life shown on the screen and being able to
> identify with the location as well as visiting those places I've already
> experienced vicariously through a film or event.
Although I found that many times the "postcard" attractions are less interesting
than lesser-known museums or historical sites, or just spending time exploring.
MHS
>> I will also agree that one may need to take less care about where one
>> chooses to eat in Italy than in France. Although I find French food
>> generally more interesting, I find I'm less likely to run into a really
>> disappointing meal in Italy, especially in the less expensive restaurants.
>
>I agree. My experiences with French food varied greatly, even among
>restaurants
>of similar rating and price. In Italy, it isn't hard to find a very good
>restaurant, although you won't find anything truly spectacular
While I agree with most of what you say, there are some spectacular restaurants
in Italy. Clearly they are not as numerous or as well known as their
counterparts in France.
MHS
Ken Blake
message news:39CBB8B0...@opr.princeton.edu...
>
>
> Ken Blake wrote:
> >
> > "Iceman" <drub...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:39CACC45...@yahoo.com...
> >
Italian
> > cuisine, so many
> > > first-time visitors to the major North Italian cities
will
> > be somewhat suprised
> > > by the food that is served.
> >
restaurants in
> > the US serve neither southern nor northern Italian food.
I
> > find "Italian" food in the US to be almost completely
unlike
> > anything I've had anywhere in Italy--and I've been in
Italy
> > some dozen times, from the north to the far south.
>
> There are some good authentic Italian restaurants in the
US,
Unquestionably there are good "Italian" restaurants in the
US. And unquestionably some of them are closer to Italian
food than the others. But I've never seen a single one that
*I* would consider to be truly Italian.
> but the
> ubiquitious "spaghetti and meatball, garlic bread, and
veal scallopine"
> place, which most American people have experienced,
doesn't serve
> Italian food.
Not even close.
TOM1948
in...@crazy4food.com
TOM1948 wrote:
> VENICE. Period!