Ireland Trip Report -- Part 1
Karen Selwyn
Day One:
This was our arrival day. With a change of planes at Heathrow, we
arrived in Dublin at mid-day and got less accomplished than we had
hoped. We began with lunch at Avoca which included brown bread, our
first encounter with this ubiquitous Irish dish. (We have become fans of
the stuff. I'm in that post trip, extend-the-vacation mood, so I'm
actually contemplating baking some, although I've never baked bread. If
anyone has a good recipe for brown bread, please post here. Also in our
extend-the-vacation mode, we've begun to listen to some of the six
traditional music CDs we brought home.)
Next, we took the tour of Trinity College offered by the undergrads. The
guide shared lots of amusing anecdotes along with the requisite data and
we enjoyed the experience. The tour ends outside the Book of Kells
exhibit and we headed inside. The exhibit is fantastic. Great signage
supplied context and enhanced our visit. The wait to see the books
themselves was brief, much shorter than I had imagined. The only down
side of visiting the Book of Kells was that we did it on our arrival
day. Reading the signs, I felt my husband start to sway at one point; he
said that he had come close to falling asleep on his feet. (At the
Cliffs of Moher a few days later, we encountered a jeweler customizing
silver pendants with the buyer's name in Ogham script and my husband had
no recollection of having seen the Ogham stones or having read the
signage about the language.)
We strolled around Merrion Square ogling the Georgian buildings and
headed back to our hotel for a brief nap before dinner at Ely's Wine Bar.
Great meal. Lovely setting. With lots of wine by the glass, we were able
to order wine to match each course. Ely's smoked salmon was the best we
had the entire trip and that includes the salmon appetizer at Shanahan's
two weeks later.
I'm now persuaded that Padraig was right when he warned us there is no
Irish cuisine. In general, the food we ate on our trip was very
familiar, similar to the food we both eat at home and at restaurants
here in the US. For example, at Ely's, my husband ordered duck confit, a
dish he often orders when we dine out in the Washington, DC area. More
identifiably Irish dishes like brown bread or black pudding or beef and
Guiness pot pie felt like notable exceptions to what we generally saw on
menus. Admittedly, the high-end restaurants where we often ate dinner
might not be representative, but we ate casual lunches at pubs -- and
not necessarily ones named in the guidebooks -- or at the cafes in
museums or random cafes in our wanderings. We ate a pub dinner at Bank
Bar on College Green, again probably not completely representative of
true pub cooking.
Day Two:
Definitely one of our favorite days. We did the day trip to the Boyne
Valley with Bus Eireann. This included major stops at Tara and Newgrange
with brief stops elsewhere. We were totally blown away by Newgrange! The
bus tour included a visit inside the tomb. Knowing that visitors to
other neolitich sites (e.g. Stonehenge) have a greatly diminished
experience because of restricted access, we were thrilled to be inside
the tomb. The tour of the tomb includes a simulation of the solstice
sun entering the central chamber, but artificial light merely suggests
the experience. Having had such a great time, we were tempted to put our
names into the lottery for the visitors slots in the five days of the
phenomenon. (My husband is a scientist and he really got into the stray
light absorption techniques used in the tomb. I had noticed the slight
bends of the passage and the partial intrusion of some boulders into the
passage, but had thought nothing of them. My husband explained these
details were not random; the builder may not have understood the formal
optical principles, but their practical knowlege was staggering.)
Day Three:
We visited the Chester Beatty Library, Dublin Castle, and Christ Church
Cathedral. We were particularly impressed by the Beatty Library and
spent a lot of time there including lunch at the excellent cafe.
I wish I had written down the language used in the text about both the
Bible and the Koran. For a library dedicated to educating visitors about
world religions, I thought I detected a subtle difference in the
library's attitude towards Christianity VS Islam. The text explaining
the Bible made a flat declarative statement that the Hebrew and
Christian Bibles were the "the word of God." However, the Koran was
described as "the exact words of Mohammed as believed by..." Maybe I'm
seeing something that wasn't intended but the insertion of the words "as
believed by..." has a whiff of saying, "they may believe this, but that
doesn't necessarily make it so." If anyone reading this post is going to
the Chester Beatty Library in the future, I'd love for him/her to look
at the signs and tell me what you think.
There was a fascinating exhibit of contemporary Chinese woodcuts in
addition to the central collection of religious texts, secular items
from Asia, and a brief exhibit about Beatty.
I'll tackle our days in Ennis in part 2. Now, I have to tackle our laundry.
Karen Selwyn
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
Karen Selwyn wrote:
[snip]
> I'm now persuaded that Padraig was right when he warned us there is no
> Irish cuisine. In general, the food we ate on our trip was very
> familiar, similar to the food we both eat at home and at restaurants
> here in the US.
Mostly sematics though. There is no US cusine either. I'd hazard
a guess that most countries don't have one. But as you've noted,
there are specific dishes, and a few odds and ends which are
unique. I still remember being at a small restaurant/pub in
Ireland and having small boiled potatoes served much like a
basket of bread might be. The "irish bread" is another. And
you'll see far more lamb offered than many other places.
Jack Campin - bogus address
> is no Irish cuisine.
There was, but they closed it down.
Bewley's in Grafton Street was one of the main attractions of Dublin
for me, but it shut a few years ago.
There are other reasons for going, but for me that was a decisive
loss - from everything I've heard, characteristic of what Irish
culture has turned into - and I don't see myself ever visiting
Dublin again.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Karen Selwyn
>
> Bewley's in Grafton Street was one of the main attractions of Dublin
> for me, but it shut a few years ago.
??? It was there as of Saturday.
Karen Selwyn
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
It was reopened, but altered extensively when it did. I suspect the
fans of the original don't like the new version.
Karen Selwyn
Agreed. I often think that distinct characteristic of US cuisine is the
prevalence of food from so many other countries. However, there are
distinct regional cuisines. There are probably as many unique dishes for
each region of the US as the total number of Irish dishes I spotted on
menus in Dublin and the west and southeast regions.
I would have happily existed on lunches of Irish farmhouse cheese and
side green salads. Only once was this option on a menu, at a restaurant
in the Aran Islands. In a pub in Kilkenny, I asked if they could put
together a cheese plate for lunch. No problem. They served me slices of
Brie, really lovely cheddar, and mozzarella with brown bread. Not quite
the assortment of Irish cheese of my dreams. They did serve the cheese
with something I would call chutney, but which they called salsa. Their
salsa was fantastic, and I don't know why I didn't ask if the chef would
share the recipe.
The bacon and the ubiquitous potatoes were the most Irish of the foods
we ate. Whether at breakfast or at lunch as an ingredient in a grilled
chicken/bacon/cheddar sandwich, the bacon was sliced meat with fat
around the outside. The lone exception to this was a spinach salad my
husband ordered at Shanahan's. The menu described the bacon as streaky
bacon rather than just the word "bacon." In Shanahan's salad, the bacon
looked and tasted exactly like US-style bacon -- not surprising since
the place describes itself as an American-style steakhouse. Well, I'm
here to tell you the American steakhouses could learn a couple of things
from Shanahan's; the quality of the beef was superior to anything I've
ever eaten at an equivalent US steakhouse. Admittedly, I don't eat steak
very often, but my husband routinely holds business dinners at high end
steak houses, and he thought his Irish Angus steak was the best steak he
has ever eaten.
Karen Selwyn
Padraig Breathnach
I stopped being a fan before that. It had been on the slide for a
number of years -- pretty well since the Bewley family found that they
couldn't operate it as they used to, and gave up.
There is a sad compulsion in our modern world to make profits, and to
hell with oul' dacency.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
Padraig Breathnach
>Great trip!
>
Good, and I look forward to reading more.
> If anyone has a good recipe for brown bread, please post here.
>
Classic:
I cup white flour, sifted; 2 cups brown flour; teaspoon salt; teaspoon
bread soda (bicarbonate of soda); enough buttermilk to make mix
workable (more than half a pint).
Mix dry ingredients well. Add buttermilk. Work as little and as
lightly as possible to get a soft dough. Form into a circular loaf and
place on floured baking sheet. Score a cross in the loaf. Bake at
200C. When the bread is ready, the loaf should sound hollow when
tapped. Resist eating until it has cooled a bit.
You can experiment with variants, including:
reducing the salt (that's what I do)
adding a small amount of sugar
melt some butter, mix with whole milk, and use instead of buttermilk
add some oatmeal or bran (I like to add bran)
Toss in a small handful of your preferred herbs.
>I'm now persuaded that Padraig was right when he warned us there is no
>Irish cuisine. In general, the food we ate on our trip was very
>familiar, similar to the food we both eat at home and at restaurants
>here in the US. For example, at Ely's, my husband ordered duck confit, a
>dish he often orders when we dine out in the Washington, DC area. More
>identifiably Irish dishes like brown bread or black pudding or beef and
>Guiness pot pie felt like notable exceptions to what we generally saw on
>menus. Admittedly, the high-end restaurants where we often ate dinner
>might not be representative, but we ate casual lunches at pubs -- and
>not necessarily ones named in the guidebooks -- or at the cafes in
>museums or random cafes in our wanderings. We ate a pub dinner at Bank
>Bar on College Green, again probably not completely representative of
>true pub cooking.
>
So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>I'll tackle our days in Ennis in part 2. Now, I have to tackle our laundry.
>
Postpone the laundry. I want to know what happened next.
The Reid
>I'm now persuaded that Padraig was right when he warned us there is no
>Irish cuisine. In general, the food we ate on our trip was very
>familiar, similar to the food we both eat at home and at restaurants
>here in the US.
but does that mean there is no Irish cuisine? USians often say
there is no British cuisine for the same reason, that its similar
to US, as Ireland and UK were eating it first, surely you are
really saying a lot of what you regard as US cusine (not stuff
like Tex Mex, Cajan and the various things developed in US like
red flannal hash) are in fact british isles cusine taken to the
states? Spaniards find the meat and two veg distinctive and
easily recognise it as British, if an Anerican doesnt it just
means its has no novelty, not that it doesnt exist.
You might as well say there is no language in UK! :-)
--
Mike Reid
Shetland, Yell and Unst
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/skyepics.htm#shetland"
B Vaughan
<kselw...@erols.com> wrote:
>This was our arrival day. With a change of planes at Heathrow, we
>arrived in Dublin at mid-day and got less accomplished than we had
>hoped. We began with lunch at Avoca which included brown bread, our
>first encounter with this ubiquitous Irish dish. (We have become fans of
>the stuff. I'm in that post trip, extend-the-vacation mood, so I'm
>actually contemplating baking some, although I've never baked bread. If
>anyone has a good recipe for brown bread, please post here. Also in our
>extend-the-vacation mode, we've begun to listen to some of the six
>traditional music CDs we brought home.)
I have several recipes. Currently this is my favorite:
Brown soda bread
Makes one loaf pan
If you don't have buttermilk, do this:
Put two tablespoons of vinegar in a glass measuring cup and fill with
milk to 100 ml. Pour off into a small glass and set aside. Now measure
312 ml of milk in the same measuring cup. (The exact quantities don't
matter; you can measure 1/3 of a cup for the 100 ml and 1 1/3 cup for
the 312 ml. The total should be 412 ml, or 1 2/3 cups, of liquid.)
If you have buttermilk, just measure 412 ml (1 2/3 cups) of
buttermilk, and pour off about 1/3 cup into a small glass.
Measure 1/4 cup of All bran into the larger quantity of milk, or into
the buttermilk. Stir well and set aside to soften. (The original
recipe called for bran, but I can't find it here. I sometimes heat the
milk-all bran mixture in my microwave so it will soften quicker. The
idea is that you don't want big strands of All bran in the finished
loaf.)
Preheat oven to 190 C (375 F)
Grease a loaf pan or line it with baking paper
Measure into a bowl:
55 grams (3/4 cup) white flour
275 grams (1 3/4 cups) whole wheat flour
40 grams (1/2 cup) quick-cooking oatmeal
[2 Tbsp wheat germ]
[1 Tbsp (or more) caraway seeds]
[1/2 tsp salt] (I never add salt)
[1 Tbsp brown sugar] (I don't add it, but the All Bran has some sugar
in it.
(I scoop the first three into the bowl of my kitchen scale and do a
progressive weigh. The total is 370 grams. It doesn't matter if you
have a bit more or less of one or the other.)
Mix well.
Add 1 1/2 tsp baking powder to the flour and mix very well, maybe
breaking up little chunks of it between your fingers. Alternatively,
you can add it to the small cup of sour milk or buttermilk, but if so,
do this last.
Add the milk/bran mixture to the bowl.
Add 2 Tbsp. melted butter or olive oil to the bowl.
Add the smaller glass of sour milk or buttermilk.
Stir quickly, just enough to mix it well. Spoon it into the loaf pan,
level off, and bake for 50 minutes to 1 hour. It should be brown and
have a hollow sound when you thump it.
As I said, I have several recipes. All of the others produce a stiffer
dough that gets kneaded, formed into a flattened ball, gets a cross
cut in the top and baked on a sheet (or in a cast iron skillet). That
is the more traditional method, but the above is my modification of a
recipe that I found in a cookbook I bought in Ireland and I like the
results very much. The olive oil is obviously a newfangled idea, but
that was in the recipe as I found it. Other recipes for Irish soda
bread (brown or white) either have no shortening, or solid butter that
gets cut in as in a pie crust or biscuits.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
B Vaughan
<padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>Classic:
Paidraig's classic recipe is similar to the one I used to use, except
that my recipe had more whole wheat flour and less white flour.
>melt some butter, mix with whole milk, and use instead of buttermilk
If you do this, you must add some vinegar, because bicarbonate of soda
reacts with acid to raise the bread. Or you could use baking powder
instead of baking soda (three times as much) which is bicarbonate with
some sort of acid (cream of tartar or similar) added to it in powdered
form.
>add some oatmeal or bran (I like to add bran)
I add both.
>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
years ago.
Padraig Breathnach
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:03:23 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
><padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>
>>Classic:
>
>Paidraig's classic recipe is similar to the one I used to use, except
>that my recipe had more whole wheat flour and less white flour.
>
You can use more wholemeal, and I know many people do, but it is
easier to get a light bread with the 1:2 ratio.
>>melt some butter, mix with whole milk, and use instead of buttermilk
>
>If you do this, you must add some vinegar, because bicarbonate of soda
>reacts with acid to raise the bread. Or you could use baking powder
>instead of baking soda (three times as much) which is bicarbonate with
>some sort of acid (cream of tartar or similar) added to it in powdered
>form.
>
I'll trust you on the chemistry, as I have never had a cookery lesson
in my life. My recipe works, but I concede that the bread rises less
than with buttermilk. Now I have an explanation. I sometimes use my
recipe with milk that is turning sour, which possibly provides the
acid that I didn't know was needed.
>>add some oatmeal or bran (I like to add bran)
>
>I add both.
>
Which is perfectly okay. I prefer the bran for lightness.
>>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>
>I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
>years ago.
>
You don't find them in restaurants, and they have become rare in home
cooking.
Frank F. Matthews
Whole wheat? Rye? (probably not rye)
Karen Selwyn
>
> Classic:
Thanks.
> So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
> bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
> proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
Actually, I think I was served the bacon and cabbage combo as a side
dish (the other side being mashed potatoe). The cabbage wasn't
quartered; it was one-inch dice. But it was definitely boiled. I took
two polite bites to try the dish, and, then, I ignored it.
We got this at a restaurant whose name I don't remember in a rural area
in Co. Kilkenny. The place was described as serving traditional Irish
country cooking. The meat with this meal was two thick slices of boiled
bacon. Could the cabbage have been cooked with the entree bacon?
> Postpone the laundry. I want to know what happened next.
What happened next involved lots of day trips focusing on rocks in the
west and green fields in the east, with historical sites sprinkled
liberally across both regions. What happened next involved nightly pub
visits to listen to traditional music.
I will write with more details. Really!
Karen Selwyn
Padraig Breathnach
>OK Mr. P that brings up a new question exactly what is Brown Flour?
>Whole wheat? Rye? (probably not rye)
>
Also known here as wholemeal flour. Yes, whole wheat.
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
>> Classic:
>
>Thanks.
>
>> So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>> bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>> proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>
>Actually, I think I was served the bacon and cabbage combo as a side
>dish (the other side being mashed potatoe). The cabbage wasn't
>quartered; it was one-inch dice. But it was definitely boiled. I took
>two polite bites to try the dish, and, then, I ignored it.
>
>We got this at a restaurant whose name I don't remember in a rural area
>in Co. Kilkenny. The place was described as serving traditional Irish
>country cooking. The meat with this meal was two thick slices of boiled
>bacon. Could the cabbage have been cooked with the entree bacon?
>
To be truly authentic, yes. But restaurants usually cook them
separately. Traditional Irish cooking is peasant food, and in the past
was usually done in one pot over a turf fire. Even the bread was baked
in a pot oven.
>> Postpone the laundry. I want to know what happened next.
>
>What happened next involved lots of day trips focusing on rocks in the
>west and green fields in the east, with historical sites sprinkled
>liberally across both regions. What happened next involved nightly pub
>visits to listen to traditional music.
>
>I will write with more details. Really!
>
Looking forward to it!
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> Whole wheat? Rye? (probably not rye)
> Also known here as wholemeal flour. Yes, whole wheat.
If Irish brown flour was the same as British, no it wasn't. It
was white flour with enough milled bran (and maybe a small amount
of malt or caramel colouring) added back in to make it look like
wholemeal. It had far less flavour and nutritional value than
genuine wholemeal but was about as easy to work with as white
flour. I haven't seen it for years, but then I haven't been
looking.
Padraig Breathnach
>>> OK Mr. P that brings up a new question exactly what is Brown Flour?
>>> Whole wheat? Rye? (probably not rye)
>> Also known here as wholemeal flour. Yes, whole wheat.
>
>If Irish brown flour was the same as British, no it wasn't. It
>was white flour with enough milled bran (and maybe a small amount
>of malt or caramel colouring) added back in to make it look like
>wholemeal. It had far less flavour and nutritional value than
>genuine wholemeal but was about as easy to work with as white
>flour. I haven't seen it for years, but then I haven't been
>looking.
>
The only brown flour I have is labelled as "Strong Wholemeal Flour"
(strong flour is suitable for making yeast breads). The ingredient
list is "Whole Wheat Flour, Vital Wheat Gluten". No flavour or colour
additives are included. Yes, I agree that the brown component is bran
and that it might have been added back.
I'm reasonably confident that if I sought ordinary wholemeal (suitable
for soda bread), the difference would be that no gluten is added.
That's all I know.
Don Wiss
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:03:23 +0100, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>
>I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
>years ago.
I saw bacon and cabbage several times. And Irish stew, though as it had
wheat in it I didn't persue it enough to know what the meat was.
What I saw for the bacon in bacon and cabbage is what we'd call fresh ham
in the US.
Don <www.donwiss.com/pictures/#travel> (e-mail link at page bottoms).
Don Wiss
> Also in our
>extend-the-vacation mode, we've begun to listen to some of the six
>traditional music CDs we brought home.)
I also bought six traditional music CDs (or seven, if you count the double
as two). I paid €140 for all from a small music shop in Dingle. I thought
this was a bit high, and he probably overcharged me as a naive tourist. But
when I got home and found that most were only 40-50 minutes long, I really
felt ripped off. Of course, one thing I was paying for was the advice in
what to buy.
Padraig Breathnach
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:33:06 +0200, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:03:23 +0100, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>
>>>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>>>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>>>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>>
>>I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
>>years ago.
>
>I saw bacon and cabbage several times. And Irish stew, though as it had
>wheat in it I didn't persue it enough to know what the meat was.
>
You avoided Irish stew for the wrong reason: it doesn't have wheat, or
wheat flour. The thickening is potato starch. It's usually made with
lamb, which has too delicate a flavour for stewing in that manner.
Traditionally it was made with mutton.
>What I saw for the bacon in bacon and cabbage is what we'd call fresh ham
>in the US.
>
Typically, cured pork shoulder. Is that ham for Americans?
Don Wiss
>Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:
>
>>I saw bacon and cabbage several times. And Irish stew, though as it had
>>wheat in it I didn't persue it enough to know what the meat was.
>>
>You avoided Irish stew for the wrong reason: it doesn't have wheat, or
>wheat flour. The thickening is potato starch.
I was told wheat the one time I asked.
>>What I saw for the bacon in bacon and cabbage is what we'd call fresh ham
>>in the US.
>>
>Typically, cured pork shoulder. Is that ham for Americans?
I don't think fresh ham is cured. That's why it is called fresh. But it
sure looked like that at Bunratty Castle, but she called it bacon.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Padraig Breathnach
>I also bought six traditional music CDs (or seven, if you count the double
>as two). I paid €140 for all from a small music shop in Dingle. I thought
>this was a bit high, and he probably overcharged me as a naive tourist.
>
€140 seems improbably, but not impossibly, high for six albums. It
obviously depends on your particular selection. If they are really
traditional albums (as distinct from the more popular Danny-Boy or
Forty-Shades-of-Green stuff) they could cost that much because of the
smaller volume of sales to cover the overheads.
>But
>when I got home and found that most were only 40-50 minutes long, I really
>felt ripped off.
>
I did a random check of my selection of Irish traditional music, and
the playing time varied greatly, from roughly 35 minutes to about 75.
The average seems to be about 50 or 55 minutes. I am sure you agree
that the quality is more important than the playing time.
>Of course, one thing I was paying for was the advice in
>what to buy.
>
No! The sales effort should be paid for by the vendor.
Yet I would be surprised if you were overcharged. Ireland has high
prices, but traders generally don't pad them to take advantage of the
unwary. In some businesses the ticket price allows a margin for
bargaining, and if I were buying a number of albums in a small outlet
I would ask for, and expect to get, a discount.
Padraig Breathnach
>On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>
>>Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I saw bacon and cabbage several times. And Irish stew, though as it had
>>>wheat in it I didn't persue it enough to know what the meat was.
>>>
>>You avoided Irish stew for the wrong reason: it doesn't have wheat, or
>>wheat flour. The thickening is potato starch.
>
>I was told wheat the one time I asked.
>
Well, either the server or the chef didn't know what Irish stew is.
Everybody has a different recipe, with the inclusion of carrots being
particularly hotly contested, but there is no disagreement about
potato providing the thickening.
>>>What I saw for the bacon in bacon and cabbage is what we'd call fresh ham
>>>in the US.
>>>
>>Typically, cured pork shoulder. Is that ham for Americans?
>
>I don't think fresh ham is cured. That's why it is called fresh. But it
>sure looked like that at Bunratty Castle, but she called it bacon.
>
Possibly a case of deceptive appearances. I suppose that the lighting
is poor in Bunratty Castle.
Frank F. Matthews
Don Wiss wrote:
Ham in the US is normally sugar cured. Occasionally it may be salt
cured. The shoulder cut mentioned is usually marketed as Picnic. It is
much lower class than Ham but a bit similar.
Karen Selwyn
>
> I also bought six traditional music CDs (or seven, if you count the double
> as two). I paid €140 for all from a small music shop in Dingle. I thought
> this was a bit high, and he probably overcharged me as a naive tourist. But
> when I got home and found that most were only 40-50 minutes long, I really
> felt ripped off. Of course, one thing I was paying for was the advice in
> what to buy.
I bought my CDs at Celtic Note on Nassau Street in Dublin. I had a
slightly queasy feeling that the young thing who made the
recommendations wasn't quite the expert I sought. Having no better
alternative, I followed her suggestions, but I'd love to hear what you
bought.
I had three specific requests: a general collection of folks songs,
Sean-Nos songs, and instrumentals of jigs and reels.
For the ballads, I bought a three-disc set titled THE ESSENTIAL FOLK
COLLECTION, an anthology of songs by various artists among whom I only
recognize The Dubliners. Other artists include Dolores Keane, The
Fureys, Like Kelly, Paddy Reilly, Ronnie Drew, Sheoda, and Patsy
Watchorn. We went out of order to listen to disc three first since it
includes "Whiskey in the Jar" one of the few ballads for which I know
all the words. (Actually, I've discovered that "Where Have All the
Flowers Gone" is an Irish folk song, so I know that one, too, -- a blast
from my past.) Based on the third and first discs, the songs range from
the raucous ("Seven Drunken Nights") to the poignant ("A Song for
Ireland"). There are far fewer political songs than I would have imagined.
The Sean-Nos CD is titled "Grian an Fhomhair" by Aine Bean Mhaitiu. (I
have no idea what the title means.) We first heard Sean-Nos singing at
Brogan's Pub in Ennis. We were listening to a group called Willie C and
Friends, three instrumentalists. Suddenly a woman seated in the audience
began singing a capalla in a hauntingly beautiful soprano. The musicians
quieted the audience immediately and we all listened raptly. I had read
about Sean-Nos before our trip and I realized I had just heard it.
Throughout our trip, we heard more Sean-Nos and we decided we wanted a
CD to enjoy at home. We haven't listened to the CD yet.
Our CD of jigs and reels is "Within a Mile of Kilty." Again, I haven't
listened to it yet.
One night, we heard Paddy Fitzpatrick perform a repertoire of
traditional ballads and original material. He has a wonderful deep
voice, and real song writing talent. When we learned he had CDs of his
music we just had to buy a copy.
The CD I'm really waiting for is one that may or may not be made. In
Kilkenny, we heard a group of seven musicians called Turas. These young
musicians play modern versions of traditional music. They've sped up the
tempo and introduced some syncopation so their music contained pleasant
surprise after surprise. The lone female member of the group plays the
wood flute and sings. We asked if they had or planned to make a CD. The
answer was "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second question.
They told us to keep looking for a web site. I just did. Whoops! The
results will not please this young group. There's a duo that goes by the
name Turas. I don't know what that means for our young friends.
Any recommendations from anyone for a must-have CDs would be
appreciated. Thanks!
Karen Selwyn
dgs
> Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>>
>>>You avoided Irish stew for the wrong reason: it doesn't have wheat, or
>>>wheat flour. The thickening is potato starch.
>>
>>I was told wheat the one time I asked.
>>
>
> Well, either the server or the chef didn't know what Irish stew is.
> Everybody has a different recipe, with the inclusion of carrots being
> particularly hotly contested, but there is no disagreement about
> potato providing the thickening.
So what was used to thicken stews in the past, before the potato was
introduced to Ireland?
--
dgs
Padraig Breathnach
>I bought my CDs at Celtic Note on Nassau Street in Dublin. I had a
>slightly queasy feeling that the young thing who made the
>recommendations wasn't quite the expert I sought.
>
You are probably right. I know the shop.
>I had three specific requests: a general collection of folks songs,
>Sean-Nos songs, and instrumentals of jigs and reels.
>
>For the ballads, I bought a three-disc set titled THE ESSENTIAL FOLK
>COLLECTION, an anthology of songs by various artists among whom I only
>recognize The Dubliners. Other artists include Dolores Keane, The
>Fureys, Like Kelly, Paddy Reilly, Ronnie Drew, Sheoda, and Patsy
>Watchorn. We went out of order to listen to disc three first since it
>includes "Whiskey in the Jar" one of the few ballads for which I know
>all the words. (Actually, I've discovered that "Where Have All the
>Flowers Gone" is an Irish folk song, so I know that one, too, -- a blast
>from my past.) Based on the third and first discs, the songs range from
>the raucous ("Seven Drunken Nights") to the poignant ("A Song for
>Ireland"). There are far fewer political songs than I would have imagined.
>
The artists you name all have considerable reputations here. Ronnie
Drew, Luke Kelly (who died young) and Paddy Reilly were all members of
the Dubliners at different times. Dolores Keane has a remarkable
voice; I hope "The Island" is in the collection. I don't think that
"Where Have All the Flowers Gone" is an Irish song, but it was very
popular here (was it Pete Seeger who wrote it?).
In general, nationalist political songs are not popular here.
>The Sean-Nos CD is titled "Grian an Fhomhair" by Aine Bean Mhaitiu. (I
>have no idea what the title means.)
>
"Autumn Sun".
>We first heard Sean-Nos singing at
>Brogan's Pub in Ennis. We were listening to a group called Willie C and
>Friends, three instrumentalists. Suddenly a woman seated in the audience
>began singing a capalla in a hauntingly beautiful soprano. The musicians
>quieted the audience immediately and we all listened raptly. I had read
>about Sean-Nos before our trip and I realized I had just heard it.
>Throughout our trip, we heard more Sean-Nos and we decided we wanted a
>CD to enjoy at home. We haven't listened to the CD yet.
>
Aine Ui Mhaitiu has a good reputation, but I have not heard much of
her work.
>Our CD of jigs and reels is "Within a Mile of Kilty." Again, I haven't
>listened to it yet.
>
I'm not big into jigs and reels -- probably because I have heard too
many bad players over the years.
>One night, we heard Paddy Fitzpatrick perform a repertoire of
>traditional ballads and original material. He has a wonderful deep
>voice, and real song writing talent. When we learned he had CDs of his
>music we just had to buy a copy.
>
>The CD I'm really waiting for is one that may or may not be made. In
>Kilkenny, we heard a group of seven musicians called Turas. These young
>musicians play modern versions of traditional music. They've sped up the
>tempo and introduced some syncopation so their music contained pleasant
>surprise after surprise. The lone female member of the group plays the
>wood flute and sings. We asked if they had or planned to make a CD. The
>answer was "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second question.
>They told us to keep looking for a web site. I just did. Whoops! The
>results will not please this young group. There's a duo that goes by the
>name Turas. I don't know what that means for our young friends.
>
"Turas" means "Journey", and it is not surprising that more than one
group took that name.
>Any recommendations from anyone for a must-have CDs would be
>appreciated. Thanks!
>
The greatest sean nos singer I ever heard was Seosamh O hEanaigh (Joe
Heaney) from Connemara. I am far from alone in holding such a view. He
died in 1984. Anything by him is worth listening to. "The Road from
Connemara" is particularly accessible, but might not be easy to find
(that reads like a contradiction, but I am sure you can untangle it).
"Say a Song" should be more easily found, as it was issued in Seattle
by Northwest Archives Recordings, attached to the University of
Washington.
Did you hear any uileann pipe music? That can be very special.
Padraig Breathnach
Don Wiss
>Don Wiss wrote:
>
>>I also bought six traditional music CDs (or seven, if you count the double
>>as two). I paid €140 for all from a small music shop in Dingle. I thought
>>this was a bit high, and he probably overcharged me as a naive tourist.
>>
>€140 seems improbably, but not impossibly, high for six albums.
As noted one was a double, so that is €20 per CD. They are (with amazon.com
prices):
Journey: The Best of Donal Lunny (2 CDs) $24.98
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000056CCT/
Crossroads, Céilí
Mighty Session, An Droichead Beag
Banjoed, Dessie Kelliher
Buílle, Nial Valley
Coumíneol, Eoin Duignan, Music For Low Whistles & Uillean Pipes $43.98
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002VXQ/
>I would ask for, and expect to get, a discount.
I didn't ask for one. Though I paid in cash (the car rental place didn't
give me back my credit card, so I had none for the trip) and that should
have been worth a discount.
Don <www.donwiss.com/pictures/> (e-mail link at page bottoms).
Don Wiss
>I bought my CDs at Celtic Note on Nassau Street in Dublin.
I didn't make it to Dublin. The day I arrived Robbie Williams was playing
to 83,000 people. As I left from Shannon I never returned to the area. I
bought from the Dingle Music Shop.
> I had a
>slightly queasy feeling that the young thing who made the
>recommendations wasn't quite the expert I sought.
The shop owners, Michael Herlihy and Caitriona Nolan, were both there. I do
not at all question their expertise in making the selections.
>Having no better
>alternative, I followed her suggestions, but I'd love to hear what you
>bought.
Listed in another post.
>I had three specific requests: a general collection of folks songs,
>Sean-Nos songs, and instrumentals of jigs and reels.
I specified that I wanted instrumentals. I'm not that much into vocals.
While there is a little vocals in one of mine, I didn't get any folk songs
or ballads. I suppose to round out my collection I should have.
The Reid
> I am sure you agree
>that the quality is more important than the playing time.
put it on "repeat" :-)
The Reid
>Traditionally it was made with mutton.
that much under rated meat now making a comeback.
The Reid
>>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>
>I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
>years ago.
neither did I, the place I stayed served almost the same meal
every night! But it was rather remote. I had been told I would
get two types of potatoes with meals and was disappointed, as I
like potatoes.
Karen Selwyn
>
> I had been told I would get two types of potatoes with meals and was
> disappointed, as I like potatoes.
Then, you would have been delighted with a couple of the meals we were
served. The meat entree was placed on a small mound of mashed potatoes
yet the family-style bowls of vegetables we were given as accompaniments
included more potatoes -- baked, roasted, or boiled.
Karen Selwyn
Karen Selwyn
>
> Mighty Session, An Droichead Beag
>
> Banjoed, Dessie Kelliher
>
> Buílle, Nial Valley
Thanks for the information. Am I correct in assuming that anything
without Amazon.com information isn't carried by them?
I just had a clever idea and tried the Smithsonian Institution music
catalog for your recommendations with no Amazon info. No luck. The
catalog lists just three world music titles none of which is Irish
traditional music. All their CDs are tied to their annual folk life
festival. (I can recommend their CD of Silk Road music.)
Karen Selwyn
The Reid
Bring it on! (I think I must have a bit of Irish in me, although
UK is also a potato culture).
Yes, there's an Irish pub my wife uses in Peckham and she was
amused when an Irish lady was having her lunch, (which comprised
mostly of potaotes), looked unhappy and took it back... to ask
for more potatoes :-)
Karen Selwyn
>
> You are probably right. I know the shop.
Sigh.
> The artists you name all have considerable reputations here. Ronnie
> Drew, Luke Kelly (who died young) and Paddy Reilly were all members of
> the Dubliners at different times.
That's reassuring.
> Dolores Keane has a remarkable voice; I hope "The Island" is in
> the collection.
Yes. Happily, it is.
> I don't think that "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" is an Irish song,
> but it was very popular here (was it Pete Seeger who wrote it?).
The lyrics on the CD are somewhat different from the Pete Seeger version
I know from the 60s so I had assumed Pete Seeger had tweaked an Irish
folk song. Your info prompted me to do a Google search. Bottom line:
Pete Seeger was definitely the writer. (At the bottom of this post, I've
included Seeger's liner notes explaining the the creation of the song.)
It's distressing to think that music I listened to as a young adult has
now slipped into the categoy of folk music, a category I associate with
music centuries old!
> Aine Ui Mhaitiu has a good reputation, but I have not heard much of
> her work.
Also good news. So far it seems as if we didn't do too badly.
> The greatest sean nos singer I ever heard was Seosamh O hEanaigh (Joe
> Heaney) from Connemara. I am far from alone in holding such a view. He
> died in 1984. Anything by him is worth listening to. "The Road from
> Connemara" is particularly accessible, but might not be easy to find
> (that reads like a contradiction, but I am sure you can untangle it).
No problem. "Accessible" as in "easy to enjoy for someone not brought up
on the tradition of Sean-nos." (I do not find Chinese opera accessible
and suffered through a performance in Beijing with equal parts
fascination and dismay!)
> "Say a Song" should be more easily found, as it was issued in Seattle
> by Northwest Archives Recordings, attached to the University of
> Washington.
Thanks.
> Did you hear any uileann pipe music? That can be very special.
Yes. The session with Turas was our introduction to the Uileann pipes,
although we simply called the instrument Irish bagpipes. The group
included two young men -- they looked like brothers -- playing Uileann
pipes.
The next night, we attended a performance by an Irish Hertiage group.
The group works with relatively young children to teach them either
Irish music or dance. When the students become competent performers --
seemingly in their late teens and early twenties -- they are added to
the troupe performing in Kilkenny in the summer and touring
internationally in the winter. We were surprised and delighted to see
the heritage group included some friends from Turas: the guitar player
now played the Irish bouzouki, one Uilean pipe player now played the
guitar, and the female wood player/singer doing the same thing in both
groups. (When we chatted with the three musicians after the show,we
learned that the guitar/bouzouki player is a student at Trinity studying
languages and history. The flute/singer is also at Trinity studying
pre-med. The musicians may have been a bit bewildered to have
middle-aged groupies, but they were gracious and invited us to come to
that night's pub session. We had an early morning departure for Dublin
the next morning and reluctantly declined.) The Heritage Group included
a different Uilean pipe player.
The performers in the Heritage group also inluded two adult male
singers, one adult female singer, and a group of adult set dancers.
Karen Selwyn
Pete Seeger's liner notes on "Flowers" from the Seeger tribute set
"Where Have All the Flowers Gone: The Songs of Pete Seeger."
"In October, 1955, I was on an airplane bound for Ohio -- half dozing. I
found in my pocket three lines copied a year before when I was reading
"And Quiet Flows the Don", the Soviet novel by Mikhail Sholokhov, who
describes the Cossack soldiers singing as they galloped off to join the
Tzar's army.
Where are the flowers? The girls have plucked them.
Where are the girls? They've taken husbands.
Where are the men? They're all in the army.
Something clicked in my subconscious; I remembered the phrase I'd
thought of a couple years earlier, 'long time passing,' a singable three
words. Then, I added the handwringer's personal complaint, 'When will
they ever learn?' Twenty minutes later, it was completed. I recorded it
for Folkways in 1956 with several other short songs.
Karen Selwyn
>
> Paidraig's classic recipe is similar to the one I used to use, except
> that my recipe had more whole wheat flour and less white flour.
Thanks. At the moment, my intentions are good. I'll write back if I
actually bake some brown bread.
Karen Selwyn
Karen Selwyn
>
> I have several recipes. Currently this is my favorite:
In my recipe files immortalized as Barbara Vaughan's Brown Soda Bread.
Karen Selwyn
congokid
writes
>So what was used to thicken stews in the past, before the potato was
>introduced to Ireland?
If they were thickened at all, possibly seaweed or oats.
<http://www.ravensgard.org/prdunham/irishfood.html>
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com
congokid
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>I have several recipes. Currently this is my favorite:
Thanks Barbara - my mother made what we called in Northern Ireland plain
soda bread and wheaten bread about 2-3 times a week. I remember her
saying she used to watch her own mother making it (and later her mother
in law from whose lower lip a cigarette invariably dangled, so ash may
have been an extra ingredient).
But she died in the mid 70s taking the recipe and method with her. I'll
have a go at them and see which is closest to what I remember of hers. I
know she used buttermilk, wheaten flour and baking soda but not all
bran, wheat germ, oatmeal, olive oil, sugar or caraway.
congokid
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
While dishes like these might be very tasty (and I've enjoyed some of
them in the past), they just don't have quite the same ring on a menu
as, for example, 'chargrilled tuna with a spicy caper berry salsa', 'duo
of seabass & brill baked with a basil hollandaise' or 'roast Skeaghanore
duck breast served pink on a parsnip and potato rosti with a port wine
jus' (all from http://www.oconnorseafood.com/menu.html).
>I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
>years ago.
Unfortunately, Ireland's (and particularly Northern Ireland's) small
population makes it ideal for test marketing by the food conglomerates
and any cuisine the country might once have had has wilted for decades
under an onslaught of advertising for all sorts of processed convenience
foods, including that aimed at restaurants as well as domestic
households. This has led to the disappearance of many traditional dishes
from the dinner table (and restaurant menus, if they were ever there in
the first place).
There is a growing trend of late, however, especially among the more
adventurous restaurants, to at least using locally produced foods and
ingredients, albeit in continentally flavoured concoctions like those
I've mentioned above.
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
>> Dolores Keane has a remarkable voice; I hope "The Island" is in
> > the collection.
>
>Yes. Happily, it is.
>
It's a fine song, and Dolores's treatment of it is special. But it's
not a folk song. It was written by Paul Brady from Strabane in
Northern Ireland, and is quite political. Paul is of the Catholic
tradition, but has the courage to oppose violence in pursuit of
political objectives -- not easy for a northern Catholic.
>It's distressing to think that music I listened to as a young adult has
>now slipped into the categoy of folk music, a category I associate with
>music centuries old!
>
Check your discs again. Did they include "Dublin in the Rare Old
Times" or "The Fields of Athenry"? Both are fairly modern, written by
a Dublin songwriter, Pete St. John. He captures the idiom of folk
music very well, so much so that many people refuse to believe that he
wrote them. There are persistent urban legends of earlier versions of
"The Fields of Athenry" being discovered. St. John vacillates between
exasperation and amusement.
There is a nice story about "The Fields of Athenry". It was adopted as
an anthem by supporters of Glasgow Celtic Football Club and is thus
hated by supporters of their rivals, Glasgow Rangers (whatever about
the footballers, the rivalry between the fans is truly bitter, with
heavy sectarian overtones). Glasgow Rangers travelled to Milan to play
Inter Milan in a European club tournament. The Milan supporters had
taken the trouble of learning the song, and sang it to (or at) them.
>> Did you hear any uileann pipe music? That can be very special.
>
>Yes. The session with Turas was our introduction to the Uileann pipes,
>although we simply called the instrument Irish bagpipes.
Well, that's what they are. The word "uileann" means "elbow".
People either love or hate the uileann pipes. I love them.
Karen Selwyn
>
> While dishes like these might be very tasty (and I've enjoyed some of
> them in the past), they just don't have quite the same ring on a menu
> as, for example, 'chargrilled tuna with a spicy caper berry salsa', 'duo
> of seabass & brill baked with a basil hollandaise' or 'roast Skeaghanore
> duck breast served pink on a parsnip and potato rosti with a port wine
> jus' (all from http://www.oconnorseafood.com/menu.html).
Yup! That sounds like the menus we encountered, particularly in Dublin
restaurants. Looking at Ely's Wine Bar menu on their web site, it lists
more traditional dishes than were, in fact, on the menu.
> There is a growing trend of late, however, especially among the more
> adventurous restaurants, to at least using locally produced foods and
> ingredients, albeit in continentally flavoured concoctions like those
> I've mentioned above.
I don't recall whether it was Chapter One or Shanahan's that actually
listed the source for their ingredients on the menu.
Karen Selwyn
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
I'm not exactly an expert, but I'd suspect the answer would
basically
be "nothing". Much of what we consider to be "Irish" culture today
is basically what was forced upon it by the occupation of the British.
There are many notable exceptions of course, but I find alot of the
diet to be very similar to northwestern England.
Karen Selwyn
>
> It's a fine song, and Dolores's treatment of it is special. But it's
> not a folk song. It was written by Paul Brady from Strabane in
> Northern Ireland, and is quite political. Paul is of the Catholic
> tradition, but has the courage to oppose violence in pursuit of
> political objectives -- not easy for a northern Catholic.
I'll be heading out to do some chores later and I'll be sure to listen.
> Check your discs again. Did they include "Dublin in the Rare Old
> Times" or "The Fields of Athenry"? Both are fairly modern, written by
> a Dublin songwriter, Pete St. John. He captures the idiom of folk
> music very well, so much so that many people refuse to believe that he
> wrote them. There are persistent urban legends of earlier versions of
> "The Fields of Athenry" being discovered. St. John vacillates between
> exasperation and amusement.
Yes to "The Field of Athenry." No to "Dublin in the Rare Old Times."
> People either love or hate the uileann pipes. I love them.
We loved them.
Other than a frustrating last day in Dublin when we walked from our
hotel near Trinity College to Smithfield Village to visit the CEOL
museum, only to discover it had closed four years ago, there wasn't much
we didn't love about our trip to Ireland.
Incidentally, we're ready to return to Ireland for some good weather.
We're having torrential rains in the DC area, the kind of weather that
makes the national news. Since Saturday, the total rainfall has been
greater than in the past two years combined and streets are flooded. The
rain is expected to continue through tomorrow. This is certainly more
rain than we had the whole 2 weeks we were in Ireland!
Karen Selwyn
The Reid
>Unfortunately, Ireland's (and particularly Northern Ireland's) small
>population makes it ideal for test marketing by the food conglomerates
>and any cuisine the country might once have had has wilted for decades
>under an onslaught of advertising for all sorts of processed convenience
>foods, including that aimed at restaurants as well as domestic
>households.
not that that does not have an impact in the rest of the british
isles and elsewhere.
S Viemeister
> In article <4gbi0rF...@individual.net>, dgs <dgs...@hotmail.com>
> writes
>
>> So what was used to thicken stews in the past, before the potato was
>> introduced to Ireland?
>
>
> If they were thickened at all, possibly seaweed or oats.
>
Or bere.
Sheila
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
> Padraig Breathnach wrote:
[snip]
> > Check your discs again. Did they include "Dublin in the Rare Old
> > Times" or "The Fields of Athenry"? Both are fairly modern, written by
> > a Dublin songwriter, Pete St. John. He captures the idiom of folk
> > music very well, so much so that many people refuse to believe that he
> > wrote them. There are persistent urban legends of earlier versions of
> > "The Fields of Athenry" being discovered. St. John vacillates between
> > exasperation and amusement.
>
> Yes to "The Field of Athenry." No to "Dublin in the Rare Old Times."
To bad, it's a good one. Funny aside, a local musician, formerly
of
Antrim I believe, performs monthly at a local irish themed pub. This
song
(well both actually) is one of his regular choices. I suspect it is
because
he actually feels this way. He won't go back to Dublin. He goes home
occasionally, but he won't go into town. Says it would break his
heart.
He does a similar one, "Mulligan and Me". I guess I'm surprised folks
aren't happier that the ole Island is finally coming into some
prosperity.
[snip]
> Incidentally, we're ready to return to Ireland for some good weather.
> We're having torrential rains in the DC area, the kind of weather that
> makes the national news. Since Saturday, the total rainfall has been
> greater than in the past two years combined and streets are flooded. The
> rain is expected to continue through tomorrow. This is certainly more
> rain than we had the whole 2 weeks we were in Ireland!
It's generally been my observation about Irish rain in general.
Coming from Central Florida where we regularly have torrential
down pours, not to mention the occasional tropical storm and
hurricane, Irish rain never seemed all that "heavy". What I did learn
on a walking tour through Wicklow was that it can be darn persistent.
A day and a half of virtually nonstop drizzle and rain. Everything
gets
wet and stays wet.
S Viemeister
> The greatest sean nos singer I ever heard was Seosamh O hEanaigh (Joe
> Heaney) from Connemara. I am far from alone in holding such a view. He
> died in 1984. Anything by him is worth listening to. "The Road from
> Connemara" is particularly accessible, but might not be easy to find
> (that reads like a contradiction, but I am sure you can untangle it).
> "Say a Song" should be more easily found, as it was issued in Seattle
> by Northwest Archives Recordings, attached to the University of
> Washington.
>
I saw and heard him at parties, when I lived in Edinburgh in the 60s -
I'll look for the recordings you mention.
Sheila
The Reid
>Much of what we consider to be "Irish" culture today
>is basically what was forced upon it by the occupation of the British.
>There are many notable exceptions of course, but I find alot of the
>diet to be very similar to northwestern England.
this must be a first, an Irishman accusing the English of forcing
food upon them :-)
rors...@stofanet.dk
Don Wiss wrote:
>
> As noted one was a double, so that is €20 per CD. They are (with amazon.com
> prices):
Try looking them up at amazon.co.uk - the one I tried at random was
there.
Padraig Breathnach
>In article <4o20a21ng7mbrus99...@4ax.com>, B Vaughan
><m...@privacy.net> writes
>
>>>So you didn't find salt ling poached in milk with onions, or fatty
>>>bacon boiled in a pot with a quartered head of green cabbage, or
>>>proper Irish stew (made with mutton rather than lamb), or coddle?
>
>While dishes like these might be very tasty (and I've enjoyed some of
>them in the past), they just don't have quite the same ring on a menu
>as, for example, 'chargrilled tuna with a spicy caper berry salsa', 'duo
>of seabass & brill baked with a basil hollandaise' or 'roast Skeaghanore
>duck breast served pink on a parsnip and potato rosti with a port wine
>jus' (all from http://www.oconnorseafood.com/menu.html).
>
I'd go for the seabass and brill. Yes, I agree entirely with your
suggestion.
>>I didn't find any of those things either when I was in Ireland two
>>years ago.
>
>Unfortunately, Ireland's (and particularly Northern Ireland's) small
>population makes it ideal for test marketing by the food conglomerates
>and any cuisine the country might once have had has wilted for decades
>under an onslaught of advertising for all sorts of processed convenience
>foods, including that aimed at restaurants as well as domestic
>households. This has led to the disappearance of many traditional dishes
>from the dinner table (and restaurant menus, if they were ever there in
>the first place).
>
It's worse than that in households. I shop for ingredients, and I
notice that most people shop for meals.
>There is a growing trend of late, however, especially among the more
>adventurous restaurants, to at least using locally produced foods and
>ingredients, albeit in continentally flavoured concoctions like those
>I've mentioned above.
>
Yes. Good ingredients are the best thing about Irish restaurants.
Padraig Breathnach
>congokid wrote:
>>
>> There is a growing trend of late, however, especially among the more
>> adventurous restaurants, to at least using locally produced foods and
>> ingredients, albeit in continentally flavoured concoctions like those
>> I've mentioned above.
>
>I don't recall whether it was Chapter One or Shanahan's that actually
>listed the source for their ingredients on the menu.
>
Are you going to give us restaurant reviews? I'd be interested.
Padraig Breathnach
I think you might be justified in adding a little bran on the basis
that wholemeal flour is less brown today than in the past.
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
The Reid wrote:
> Following up to ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
>
> >Much of what we consider to be "Irish" culture today
> >is basically what was forced upon it by the occupation of the British.
> >There are many notable exceptions of course, but I find alot of the
> >diet to be very similar to northwestern England.
>
> this must be a first, an Irishman accusing the English of forcing
> food upon them :-)
And they said irony was dead!
Padraig Breathnach
>Other than a frustrating last day in Dublin when we walked from our
>hotel near Trinity College to Smithfield Village to visit the CEOL
>museum, only to discover it had closed four years ago, there wasn't much
>we didn't love about our trip to Ireland.
>
Sorry about that! I hope you found the north inner city and Smithfield
interesting.
>Incidentally, we're ready to return to Ireland for some good weather.
>We're having torrential rains in the DC area, the kind of weather that
>makes the national news. Since Saturday, the total rainfall has been
>greater than in the past two years combined and streets are flooded. The
>rain is expected to continue through tomorrow. This is certainly more
>rain than we had the whole 2 weeks we were in Ireland!
>
I want rain. It would give me an excuse to abandon work in the garden.
Okay, you can guess I'm not working right now because I am at the
keyboard, but rain would assuage my guilt.
Padraig Breathnach
>... I guess I'm surprised folks
>aren't happier that the ole Island is finally coming into some
>prosperity.
>
There are losses as well as gains.
> It's generally been my observation about Irish rain in general.
>Coming from Central Florida where we regularly have torrential
>down pours, not to mention the occasional tropical storm and
>hurricane, Irish rain never seemed all that "heavy". What I did learn
>on a walking tour through Wicklow was that it can be darn persistent.
>A day and a half of virtually nonstop drizzle and rain. Everything
>gets wet and stays wet.
>
We do get some dry days, and I have even witnessed sunshine.
congokid
<kselw...@erols.com> writes
>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>> People either love or hate the uileann pipes. I love them.
>
>We loved them.
You might like The Chieftains, then. Can't remember if they were
mentioned earlier.
Bob Allison
Karen Selwyn <kselw...@erols.com> wrote:
> (Actually, I've discovered that "Where Have All the
> Flowers Gone" is an Irish folk song, so I know that one, too, -- a blast
> from my past.)
Does Pete Seeger know this?
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/where.html#
--
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Bob
in Carmel, CA
Karen Selwyn
>
> Are you going to give us restaurant reviews? I'd be interested.
Chapter One
Executive Summary: Delicious food. All dishes were extremely well
executed and appealingly plated. Gracious welcome. Attentive but not
intrusive service. Attractive surroundings.
Detailed version: The evening began with festivities even before we got
to the restaurant. You may recall that I'm a docent at the contemporary
art museum of the Smithsonian Institution. (More about our visit to the
Irish Museum of Modern Art when I write about our last two days in
Dublin). Barry Flanagan, of hare sculpture fame, will be having a show
at the IMMA opening tomorrow. The median strip on O'Connell Street north
of the Liffey has become an ad hoc sculpture garden for Flanagan
sculptures in conjunction with the museum show. As we cruised to the
restaurant, we were delighted by the sight Flanagan's whimsical sculptures.
The restaurant is lovely with a sleek, modern look. The upholstery on
the seating is understated to keep the visual focus on the stone walls.
I don't know if the stone is original to the Jameson family's time in
the building or an interior designer's addition. In spite of the stone
walls, the noise level in the restaurant was not a problem, although
there were outbursts from a large group celebrating a milestone anniversary.
We ordered the tasting menu: six mini-courses. A tasting menu often
involves no choice; however, I asked if we could substitute a different
dessert and they agreed happily. (The original selection was a chocolate
and banana concoction.) Empowered, my husband asked about substituting a
different meat dish for the Spring Meat Pie. This time the answer was no
with the explanation that the chef had planned the progression of
tastes and our tinkering would upset the balance. As you'll read below,
the progression of tastes involved a surprising amount of repetition.
First course: Lobster and crab cocktail with avocado and sun-dried tomato.
Second course: Pithivier (puff pastry) filled with griolles (wild
mushrooms) with asparagus garnish.
Third course: Ballantine of foie gras with peach wedges
Fourth course: John Dory with griolles and asparagus
Fifth course: Spring Meat Pie (puff pastry filled with chunks of squab,
lamb, chicken, and veal) with Bernaise sauce and peas
Dessert: Lemon creme caramel with mango and mango sorbet (husband)
Custard tart with fresh strawberries and creme fraiche ice
cream (me)
Wine: We shared a bottle of wine, a Sancerre. The sommelier first
recommended a pinot gris from Alsace. When we expressed some concern
about it being too sweet for our taste, he assured us it was rich and
fruity but not sweet. Since that wine was sold by the glass, he brought
us a bit to taste. Whoops! It was appallingly sweet. I've never had a
sommelier's recommendation be so far off. My husband's next move
surprised me. He informed the sommelier that he wanted a Sancerre and to
please recommend one that would work with our meal. This is contrary to
our practice of letting the sommelier make an independent recommendation
with only price to guide him/her. Obviously, the sommelier had lost
standing as far as my husband was concerned.
The fish preparation that was served was not the one described on the
menu. That version featured John Dory with mussels in a ginger
vinaigrette. Since we had gotten griolles in the second course, I think
the menu dish would have been better choice. In addition, I think the
menu should not have included two dishes with puff pastry or asparagus.
Now the food was masterfully prepared and tasted delicious. However, the
purpose of a tasting menu is to see the chef's range of talent. Serving
dishes with repeated ingredients seems to defeat some of that purpose.
Based on our experience, is Chapter One really the best restaurant in
Dublin? I'd be hard-pressed to give Chapter One the nod over Shanahan's.
(We did not eat at Patrick Gilbaud's restaurant.) The issue with
duplication on the tasting menu was a negative for me even though each
dish was really, really excellent. The interesting combinations in each
dish was a positive for me. Perhaps I'm most influenced by the fact that
as suberb an experience as we had at Chapter One, the evening met our
expectations. The evening at Shanahan's exceeded expectations.
Karen Selwyn
Karen Selwyn
>
>>(Actually, I've discovered that "Where Have All the
>>Flowers Gone" is an Irish folk song, so I know that one, too, -- a blast
>>from my past.)
>
>
> Does Pete Seeger know this?
> http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/where.html#
I suspect you've discovered we've already thrashed this one out.
Karen Selwyn
Karen Selwyn
>
> You might like The Chieftains, then. Can't remember if they were
> mentioned earlier.
I recognize the name from somewhere in my past, but I can't remember
their sound or any of their songs.
Karen Selwyn
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>>
>> Are you going to give us restaurant reviews? I'd be interested.
>
>Chapter One
>
>Executive Summary: Delicious food. All dishes were extremely well
>executed and appealingly plated. Gracious welcome. Attentive but not
>intrusive service. Attractive surroundings.
>
I would add that they have some very good servers who are also very
cheerful and friendly. The house policy seems to be that this is
acceptable, but not required. Some staff are formal and correct;
others are informal and correct. It's the luck of the draw. I prefer
the informal and correct.
>The restaurant is lovely with a sleek, modern look. The upholstery on
>the seating is understated to keep the visual focus on the stone walls.
>I don't know if the stone is original to the Jameson family's time in
>the building or an interior designer's addition.
>
Both, in a sense. Plaster was stripped to reveal the stonework.
>Wine: We shared a bottle of wine, a Sancerre. The sommelier first
>recommended a pinot gris from Alsace. When we expressed some concern
>about it being too sweet for our taste, he assured us it was rich and
>fruity but not sweet. Since that wine was sold by the glass, he brought
>us a bit to taste. Whoops! It was appallingly sweet.
>
I would not expect that from an Alsatian Pinot Gris. I'd expect it to
start dry, with a trace of sweetness in the aftertaste. I'll open a
bottle at the weekend to check. But I would share your preference for
a Sancerre (except with the foie gras).
>I've never had a sommelier's recommendation be so far off.
>
Perhaps it is the Irish palate that caused the problem. Most of my
compatriots do not go for really dry wines. Soft-around-the-edges
Chardonnay is their limit -- not the steely quality you get with the
best ones. Sauvignon is too challenging for most of them.
>The fish preparation that was served was not the one described on the
>menu. That version featured John Dory with mussels in a ginger
>vinaigrette. Since we had gotten griolles in the second course, I think
>the menu dish would have been better choice. In addition, I think the
>menu should not have included two dishes with puff pastry or asparagus.
>Now the food was masterfully prepared and tasted delicious. However, the
>purpose of a tasting menu is to see the chef's range of talent. Serving
>dishes with repeated ingredients seems to defeat some of that purpose.
>
Agreed.
>Based on our experience, is Chapter One really the best restaurant in
>Dublin? I'd be hard-pressed to give Chapter One the nod over Shanahan's.
>
It's a while since I have been in Shanahan's, but I prefer Chapter
One. There seems to be a strong consensus among Ireland's food writers
that Chapter One is the best. The main contender is L'Ecrivain, but I
don't like it greatly, mainly because I don't like the room (the food
is good).
>(We did not eat at Patrick Gilbaud's restaurant.)
>
Nor have I. I have heard negative reports about how people are treated
there if they are not in the "club".
> The issue with
>duplication on the tasting menu was a negative for me even though each
>dish was really, really excellent. The interesting combinations in each
>dish was a positive for me. Perhaps I'm most influenced by the fact that
>as suberb an experience as we had at Chapter One, the evening met our
>expectations. The evening at Shanahan's exceeded expectations.
>
I must try Shanahan's again. I wonder if I can persuade somebody to
pay for me.
Thanks for (if I may put it so) the feedback.
Karen Selwyn
>
> Yes to "The Field of Athenry."
When I wrote to say that I was surprised that there weren't more
political songs, I wasn't speaking about nationalistic songs. I was
thinking about social justice, freedom, etc.
As I've listened to my CDs and picked up more of the lyrics, I'm going
to revise my opinion about a dearth of political songs. "The Fields of
Athenry" certainly qualifies as a political song: references to the
famine, references to stealing the landowner's corn so the man's
children don't starve to death, forced exportation of prisoners to
Australia.
"The Island" is an amazing song. Dolores Keane has a wonderful voice.
It's not what I'd call a beautiful voice, but it's a compelling and
expressive voice that just nails the song. The Caribbean rhythm
certainly lulls inattentive listeners and then, pow!, you start hearing
the words about sacrificing children to worn-out dreams or trying to
carve tomorrow from a tombstone. Just fabulous.
Karen Selwyn
Don Wiss
I had thought of that, but it was late last night. I've now checked there.
Many of these are from used or third party sellers. One I can't find. But
in general it looks like I paid plenty. Don.
Journey: The Best of Donal Lunny (2 CDs) $24.98 £12.99
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000056CCT/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0002AAPGM/
Crossroads, Céilí £7.14
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000024PMF/
Mighty Session, An Droichead Beag £5.92
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000000PX9/
Banjoed, Dessie Kelliher £12.99
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0007ZB5RA/
Buílle, Níall Vallely
Coumíneol, Eoin Duignan, Music For Low Whistles & Uillean Pipes $43.98
£9.51
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002VXQ/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000002VXQ/
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> "ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com" <ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote:
[]
> > It's generally been my observation about Irish rain in general.
> >Coming from Central Florida where we regularly have torrential
> >down pours, not to mention the occasional tropical storm and
> >hurricane, Irish rain never seemed all that "heavy". What I did learn
> >on a walking tour through Wicklow was that it can be darn persistent.
> >A day and a half of virtually nonstop drizzle and rain. Everything
> >gets wet and stays wet.
> >
> We do get some dry days, and I have even witnessed sunshine.
Indeed. We had some nice sunshine there last August!
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer http://soundjunction.org
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
Songs such as you suggest would be fairly old. "Rebel songs"
I think they are called these days. Ireland has been
"free" for some time and from what I understand from speaking with
the performers, many of the old songs are seen as basically "corny"
or some irish equivalent. There are notible exceptions of course.
The one that springs to mind is "The Black and Tans". (Oh come out
you black and tans, come out and fight me like a man...). But I must
admit I don't understand how that is "corny" but "Rambles of Spring"
isn't.
And there are songs which fall into categories which might be hard
to categorize such as "Sonny" which are songs of an era long gone
when folks didn't necessarily hold out much hope for life in their
own country. "Van demons land" is another of this ilk. Truth is I've
always wondered the "political" significance of the Willie Brennan
character in "Brennen on the Moore".
There are more modern songs, mostly about the "troubles" but
they tend towards as much lamenting about what Irish were doing
to themselves than anything else. "There were Roses" is a good
example. But there are some extremely modern songs with a bit
more positive in slant. My personal favorite is one called "And
Still the Liffey Flows". Bit of a blues tone to it but I've never been
a folk purist so I don't really care.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> Irish rain never seemed all that "heavy".
a "soft day"?
>What I did learn
>> >on a walking tour through Wicklow was that it can be darn persistent.
>> >A day and a half of virtually nonstop drizzle and rain. Everything
>> >gets wet and stays wet.
>> >
>> We do get some dry days, and I have even witnessed sunshine.
>
>Indeed. We had some nice sunshine there last August!
we had sun too for most of our trip.
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/blasket.htm"
congokid
<kselw...@erols.com> writes
>Serving dishes with repeated ingredients seems to defeat some of that
>purpose.
You have a point, but it's not unheard of. In Club Gascon in London I
once had the Millennium gastronomique menu in which almost all of the
seven courses featured foie gras, including the ice cream dessert.
Karen Selwyn
>
> You have a point, but it's not unheard of.
Agreed. However, a dinner in which a particular ingredient is featured
in every course tends to be identified as such. Those dinners tend to
occur at the beginning of the season of the featured ingredient. I've
read about truffle dinners taking place in the fall and asparagus
dinners taking place in the spring. Our maitre d' was focusing on the
tasting menu as highlighting the range of the chef.
Karen Selwyn
Jesper Lauridsen
>
> I stopped being a fan before that. It had been on the slide for a
> number of years -- pretty well since the Bewley family found that they
> couldn't operate it as they used to, and gave up.
>
> There is a sad compulsion in our modern world to make profits, and to
> hell with oul' dacency.
Do you work for free?
Padraig Breathnach
The Reid
>>Do you work for free?
>
>Quite often.
can you do gas appliance repairs?
--
Mike Reid. Shetland pics:-
Puffin pics "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/puffinpics.htm"
Seabird shots "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/shetlandbirds.htm"
Lensed landscape "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk/skyepics.htm#shetland
Padraig Breathnach
>Following up to Padraig Breathnach
>
>>>Do you work for free?
>>
>>Quite often.
>
>can you do gas appliance repairs?
I'm better with words and numbers than with things. I know a good
gas-certified plumber, and he is neither expensive nor Polish.
jeremy...@yahoo.com
Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> Jesper Lauridsen <rors...@sorrystofanet.dk> wrote:
>
> >On 2006-06-26, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
> >>
> >> I stopped being a fan before that. It had been on the slide for a
> >> number of years -- pretty well since the Bewley family found that they
> >> couldn't operate it as they used to, and gave up.
> >>
> >> There is a sad compulsion in our modern world to make profits, and to
> >> hell with oul' dacency.
> >
> >Do you work for free?
>
> Quite often.
Me too - but not deliberately :-(
B;
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
I'm often in that situation, but it's really hard to actually put an
exact price on some of the things I do. As notation programmes can count
notes, I sometimes have fun figuring out how much I get paid per note
for various pieces. In the last three pieces, that would 51p, 30p and
55p per note respectively. (Not including trills or tremolandi!)
There is some kind of work that I agree to do for less than usual,
because I either enjoy it a lot, or think it's a worthy cause. (Some of
the education work I do would be in that category.)
Dave Frightens Me
<padr...@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
>The Reid <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Following up to Padraig Breathnach
>>
>>>>Do you work for free?
>>>
>>>Quite often.
>>
>>can you do gas appliance repairs?
>
>I'm better with words and numbers than with things. I know a good
>gas-certified plumber, and he is neither expensive nor Polish.
In London I once got a stoned Jamaican guy fixing our gas. He was
incredibly stereotypical, with dreads and a heavy accent.
"Don't want to be blowin no one up now, mun."
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
The Reid
>>can you do gas appliance repairs?
>
>I'm better with words and numbers than with things. I know a good
>gas-certified plumber, and he is neither expensive nor Polish.
it was the free one I was looking for.
The Reid
besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy
> In the last three pieces, that would 51p, 30p and
>55p per note respectively. (Not including trills or tremolandi!)
I finally understand why Salieri tells Mozart there are "too many
notes" :-)
Last photos I sold I got 80p a MByte, does that make me well
paid?