Another article on art auction scams
BOTW
Here's a USA today article on the Art Auction scam. the article can be
found at
http://www.usatoday.com/life/travel/leisure/2001/2001-02-09-cruise-auctions.
htm#more
Art auctions, once a rarity on the high seas, are finding a
berth on most every cruise line these days. "All the major ones have them,"
says Alan Gerstner, owner of The Cruise Corner & Vacation Center, a
Wilmette, Ill., travel agency. In an era of fare slashing, art sales have
become an on-board profit center, he and other industry watchers say. And
while auctions once were confined to a single room on the ship, "now it's
gotten so intrusive in the public areas," says cruise travel writer Linda
Coffman, who opines at www.cruisediva.com. "On some ships, you can't walk
down halls without tripping over easels" of works for sale.
Taking home a painting or print - whether it be a $50 offering
from an obscure artist or a $30,000 Picasso - definitely floats some
passengers' boats, but others are at sea about whether they're getting good
value.
Not thrilled is Debra Erickson of Bedford, Pa., who spent about
$57,000 at auctions run by Park West Gallery on a July sailing of Carnival's
Triumph. When she and her husband got home, they found that some of the
Chagall and Dali prints and animation frames from popular cartoons they
bought could be purchased for far less on land.
"It's a scam," she says of the auctions. "We were naive novices.
We thought we were getting a good price."
The couple refused to accept Park West Gallery's all-sales-final
policy, and "we sent back most of the art," Erickson says. Getting a refund
took more than six months and required the intervention of her credit-card
issuers. She still hasn't seen all her money, she says.
The Southfield, Mich., gallery, which sold 200,000 pieces of art
on more than a half-dozen cruise lines last year, says Erickson will get her
refund even though sales are deemed final. "For every unhappy customer,
there are 10,000 happy ones," Park West president Albert Scaglione says.
"We've got the volume, and we offer outstanding value."
Still, the Salvador Dali Gallery in Pacific Palisades, Calif.,
reports 50 calls a week from cruisers who question the value of what they
bought once back on dry land and able to do research on the Internet and
with galleries. "These people (auctioneers) are blatantly overcharging"
people who are unsophisticated about art and have no way to check out the
legitimacy of prices while at sea, says Salvador Dali Gallery director Bruce
Hochman.
"People get caught up in the excitement" and overbid, agrees
Coffman. She thinks cruise companies turn a blind eye because "they're
interested in on-board revenue enhancements. I've been told those art
auctions are beaucoup big-time moneymakers."
Cruise lines, which get an undisclosed percentage of art-sale
profits, say that auctions would be offloaded if they didn't make a splash
with passengers. "We have very, very few complaints" about art auctions,
says Carnival spokeswoman Jennifer de la Cruz. "They are a popular
activity."
Caution is still advisable, says Stephen Abt, CEO of ArtFact
Inc., a clearinghouse for auction data. "If you're away from home and
disembodied from support mechanisms, you're vulnerable."
George Leppla
"BOTW" <slin...@erols.com> wrote
>"These people (auctioneers) are blatantly overcharging"
> people who are unsophisticated about art and have no way to check out the
> legitimacy of prices while at sea, says Salvador Dali Gallery director
Bruce
> Hochman.
Someone is going to have to explain to me how you can get "overcharged" at
an auction. As in any auction, the prices are set by the final bidder...
the customer.
I don't like the on-board auctions. I don't know enough about art to know if
these pieces are worth what they sell for... and I am not pretentious enough
to buy something just because someone says it is "art".
And... I don't think I have ever heard of ANY auction being stopped because
the prices that people were bidding were too high. If you don't know the
worth of what you are bidding on then don't bid.
--
George in PA
Countryside Travel
www.countryside-travel.com
BOTW
Auctions, watch sales, jewelry sales, etc?
After all, being you're a Master Cruise Counselor and all, people are
depending on you to provide them with your expert advice on how to enjoy
their cruise.
Paul
"George Leppla" <geo...@cruisemaster.com> wrote in message
news:V%RC8.156229$Lj.12...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Paul Tauger
something they evidently know very little about? I'm far from an art
expert, but I know my Impressionists pretty well, and my wife has a formal
art education. We would _never_ buy an expensive piece on a whim, without
knowing an awful lot about what we were purchasing, how much it should
appraise at, etc. Even in areas which my wife knows as well as many experts
(Chinese art, for example), we have passed up questionable deals because
there wasn't a sufficient opportunity to appraise and authenticate the
piece.
I don't think it's right that the ships take advantage of people this way,
but isn't this really just another version of a classic con? Cons never
work, unless the "mark" is greedy, and thinks they're getting something for
nothing. The woman in the USA Today article spent $57,000 thinking she was
getting a steal, and then was unhappy to learn that she was the one stolen
from.
I can't say I'm particularly sympathetic.
My wife and I have a policy: anything we buy -- fine art, folk art,
souvenir, or whatever -- we buy because we like it, an dbecause the extent
of our liking equals or exceeds the purchase price, regardless of what the
item actually is. We never would buy something in the hope that it's really
worth much more than we paid.
"BOTW" <slin...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:abgmgk$7ai$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
George Leppla
"BOTW" <slin...@erols.com> wrote
> After all, being you're a Master Cruise Counselor and all, people are
> depending on you to provide them with your expert advice on how to enjoy
> their cruise.
No... I don't tell people how to bid at auctions or what souvenirs to buy or
how to spend their money.
I also don't tell them that if they sit in the sun too long they will get
sunburned.
I don't tell them that if they drink too much they will get drunk.
I don't tell them that if they eat too much at the Midnight Buffet they
might get indigestion.
I don't tell them that if they play in the casino they will probably lose
some money.
I don't tell them that if they try to breathe under water they will probably
drown.
I don't tell them that water-skiing behind the ship is dangerous.
I assume that most adults have enough intelligence to figure this stuff out
for themselves.... you know, common sense stuff and things you learn in real
life. These are adults, capable of making their own decisions.
And... I never tell people how to enjoy themselves. I can make suggestions
about things to do based on their preferrences, but can't make anyone have a
good time.... and I can't prevent anyone from getting drunk, over eating,
getting sunburned or spending too much money for art if that is what they
choose to do.
Juliana L Holm
> After all, being you're a Master Cruise Counselor and all, people are
> depending on you to provide them with your expert advice on how to enjoy
> their cruise.
My Travel Agent has mentioned that one should be skeptical about the value of Art
at Art Auctions.
Julie
C.B.
Why would I want my agent to treat me like a KID?
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
BOTW
You have a reputable Travel Agent -- congratulations as there aren't many of
them.
A reputable agent possesses knowledge, professionalism, ethics and
integrity. If George had any of these qualities, he would be
straightforward with his few existing clients. Since he isn't he's reduced
to trolling this newsgroup in a pathetic attempt to hook new customers.
Paul
"Juliana L Holm" <jh...@mason2.gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:abgssn$a...@portal.gmu.edu...
Warren H. Davis
> people who are unsophisticated about art and have no way to check out the
> legitimacy of prices while at sea, says Salvador Dali Gallery director Bruce
> Hochman.
>
While I am not a fan of the art auctions at all, the above quote is
not necessarily true. With the ever increasing availability of
internet cafes aboard ships, it's easy enough now to do a little
research before attending an auction.
If you see a print you like, do some homework online in the internet
cafe before going to the auction. If most people would do this, the
onboard auctions would probably quickly dry up. The small investment
in online charges may ultimately save you thousands.
Warren
Chrissy Cruiser
<geo...@cruisemaster.com> wrote:
>I don't tell them that if they eat too much at the Midnight Buffet they
>might get indigestion.
Damn, I wish you had.
<burp>
Chrissy Cruiser
<ptauger...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I know my Impressionists pretty well, and my wife has a formal
>art education. We would _never_ buy an expensive piece on a whim, without
>knowing an awful lot about what we were purchasing....
If you can see the numbers behind the paint, it's not good.
Does that help?
Paul Tauger
"Chrissy Cruiser" <crui...@email.com> wrote in message
news:fncodu4gqsi36ju7s...@4ax.com...
LOL! You crack me up!
>
Travlmapa
check out pieces at the Park West gallery here before the cruise, and have an
idea of what we are looking for and approximately what they may be worth. So
far we have done well.
Dee
>With the ever increasing availability of
>internet cafes aboard ships, it's easy enough now to do a little
>research before attending an auction.
Live and Love to travel.
Karen Allison
souvenir, or whatever -- we buy because we like it, an dbecause the extent
of our liking equals or exceeds the purchase price, regardless of what the
item actually is. We never would buy something in the hope that it's really
worth much more than we paid.<<
That is a fine policy when it comes to buying art. Do NOT buy art for the
"value" or "possible appreciation" of the item. Buy it because you cannot
imagine living without it, because it talks to you, because you really want it
on your walls.
I've bought art at auctions on ships - in particular, I've bought several
wonderful lithographs by Izhak Tarkay, a really wonderful Israeli artist who is
well-represented around the world. I've seen his art all over and it's also on
my walls, nicely framed and for my pleasure. I have friends who have bought
his works at galleries rather than auctions and who also love it.
Additionally, I've bought works by Linda le Kinff a marvelous French artist who
is represented, I believe, in museums.
I've gotten excellent prices at the ship auctions because the company owns a
great deal of their art and sometimes, when the auctions are going slowly, they
will accept a low bid. The value of art lies in the appreciation of it - don't
worry about the universal value of the work, just be sure you really like it
(there is plenty of time to look at it before the auction) and want to live
with it on your walls.
I have also bought art from artists outside museums on the street and have
loved it for a lifetime. I still own the very first piece of art I bought
(with my very first paycheck, at 14), a lovely sepia drawing.
Art is a very personal subject. And yes, it is unwise to buy very expensive
works without some knowledge of their value. However, if you buy it without
the notion of reselling it someday (unlikely in most cases), and buy only what
you love and want to live with, you will do very well, IMO.
___|___ AT HOME
////////\ _
//////// \ ('< IN LAS VEGAS
| (_) | | (^)
ldb
sue and kevin mullen
Very well said!! We have bought a couple of expensive (for us) pcs of
artwork that we love and had to have. They are by an artist whos work
will/should increase in value with time. Problem is I would never sell
them, because they are the pcs we love the most.
Looks like we have the same taste, I also love Tarkay and LiKinff.
Sue
BOTW
Price Club often has art sales in which Tarkay is featured (typically less
than $150) and unlike the ships they don't charge extra for the frame. Why
would you pay Cruise Ship prices?
Tell ya what check out 2001-2002 Davenport's Art Reference & Price Guide
(should be available at your local library) to find the real value
I feel sorry for you when you get the results.
Paul
"Karen Allison" <kral...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020512123646...@mb-fz.aol.com...
Karen Allison
I would be reframing almost anything I bought "with" frame - I have a wonderful
framer and, trust me, the frame has a lot to do with the presentation of the
art. I haven't paid much more (and often less) than $150 for Tarkay - as I
said, I shop, I don't just raise my hand and up the ante. The auctioneer often
has "specials" at half or less the usual auction price and I've availed myself
of these as well.
Are you aware that Tarkays come in varying sizes from quite small to very
large? $150 doesn't say much without that information.
Charlie Funk
more than the frame would cost were I to be GIVEN the print and have it
framed at home. If I had the capital, I would start a framing shop, as
there seems to be a considerable profit margin.
--
Charlie Funk
Just Cruisin' Plus
800 888-0922
615 833-0922
www.justcruisinplus.com
We prefer the MasterCard card
"Karen Allison" <kral...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020513094028...@mb-mq.aol.com...
Chrissy Cruiser
wrote:
>Are you aware that Tarkays come in varying sizes from quite small to very
>large?
Of course they do. The Butterballs are especially plump this year
and.............
Oooops, sorry. TArkAy, not Turkey.