What's the scoop with art auctions?
Tony Rush
In a nutshell, my brother-in-law got married last year and took a
cruise for his honeymoon. When he came home, he said he'd bought
about $3,000 worth of art "as an investment" by attending the art
auctions.
I don't know anything about art but I'm smart enough to know when
something doesn't make sense. And when you can supposedly buy a
"Renoir" for a price that's obviously too low, that should be the
first clue to a thinking person that something is amiss.
So, what's the scoop? Are they just prints or something? Are the
appraisal figures exaggerated to make the opening bid look cheap?
What's the gimmick and how stupid was my brother-in-law?
Tony
Tony Rush
Robert J
to make it more attractive. It is a money maker for the cruise
company.
Tom & Linda
--Tom
"Tony Rush" <nos...@therushes.net> wrote in message
news:6oigt05jkal96j5ap...@4ax.com...
rieker5.n...@hotmail.com
> appraisal figures exaggerated to make the opening bid look cheap?
As with any investment, knowing your product is vital, be it stocks, real
estate or art.
If you want to explore his folly, get the artist/name of some of his
purchases and explore their current value by googling them.
If he likes the artwork, then he should have bought it for himself. Art on
a cruise ship is rarely 'investment quality'.
jcoulter
The short answer to your questions is, yes.
THey are "limited edition" prints that are of good quality and if they
fit your decor and excelent purchase. Are they necessarily great deals?
Most people that I have talked to do not believe that they are.
About the Renoir, I was amazed on my last Celebrity cruise to see
Renaissance master on sale. what they had of course were prints of
etchings made from old plates. What is the worth? What would you give.
I have absoutely no idea who does the appraising or how valid it is, but
look at jewelry for an expample, no one pays appraisal value. My father
in a fit of madness ( I will assume that it was due to chemo therapy and
not other considerations, but I know better) bought his girl friend an
engagement ring for $X the appraisal that accompanied the ring from the
store was for $1.3X, who were they kidding. Nothing is worth more than
it will bring in a fair exchange. Presumably that would be what he paid
if not less. Since neither he nor anyone else was paying more the
appraisl was and is a total joke.
just my ranting .02
Charles
<b4...@webtv.com> wrote:
> The art is crap. It is polished up, nice an pretty and sold in a way
> to make it more attractive. It is a money maker for the cruise
> company.
How many sock puppets are you going to post under? You have done Jesse
and Jamie, Lee La, Rocky, and now Robert J.
--
Charles
Tom & Linda
"jcoulter" <225stella...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95D296268...@216.196.97.136...
>
> I have absoutely no idea who does the appraising or how valid it is, but
> look at jewelry for an expample, no one pays appraisal value. My father
> in a fit of madness ( I will assume that it was due to chemo therapy and
> not other considerations, but I know better) bought his girl friend an
> engagement ring for $X the appraisal that accompanied the ring from the
> store was for $1.3X, who were they kidding. Nothing is worth more than
> it will bring in a fair exchange. Presumably that would be what he paid
> if not less. Since neither he nor anyone else was paying more the
> appraisl was and is a total joke.
>
Jewelry at least has the weight value of the gold and/or jewels, so there is
some intrinsic value built in. A print on a piece of paper doesn't have
that.
--Tom
David C Jacobson
"Tony Rush" <nos...@therushes.net> wrote in message
news:6oigt05jkal96j5ap...@4ax.com...
Tony- as others have stated, you are buying prints at the auctions. On my
last cruise, the auctioneer offered three prints of Rembrandt works (prints
from the original plates) for $6,000! No one bit on that. Is this a rip
off? To me it would be. But for most of the prints that are offered, I am
not so sure it is a rip off. Is it an investment? I think "Investment" is in
the eyes of the beholder. My understanding of "appraisals" is under the
assumption that there is a willing buyer and a willing seller.
In Nov 2003, I went on my first cruise, on the Conquest. I did know about
the art auctions because I did not read enough or study enough in advance to
know that art auctions were on the ships. Keeping in mind that as a bachelor
I have nothing on the walls of my house of any substance, I approached the
art auction as an opportunity to get something for the house. The art
auction had "blind" bids, where you hold your card up and say you will pay
$x for something with no obligation to buy it after you saw the print. I
bought three prints, including a Thomas Kincade print, about $400 total. I
had not budgeted this expense, and when you count in the cost of frames from
the local Hobby Lobby or framing store, the cost runs up even more. Being
ignorant about all this, I did not count all the costs. It is going to cost
me twice as much as I paid for Kincade print to get it framed!
Since my first cruise, I have been on two other cruises and approached the
auctions differently. On the second cruise, I got one print, and got a free
print sent to me, and spent about $100. On the last cruise I went to one
auction but got nothing. They had the same prints as the previous two
cruises.
So why go to the art auctions?
1. Free champagne before the auction.
2. If you stay until the end of the auction, they give you a free print.
Forget about the appraisal value of the free print.
3. It is interesting watching other people spend gobs of money for prints.
My take: The value of the art lies in what it means to you, how much you
want to spend and what you like. If you are willing to pay $400 for a print,
go for it.
The prints aren't that bad anyway.
> What's the gimmick and how stupid was my brother-in-law?
Maybe "stupid" is not the best word, and it depends on what he thinks an
"investment" is. If he thinks he is going to re-sell the prints at a profit,
he may be a bit misguided.
David Jacobson
Baton Rouge
Dick Goldhaber
our Westerdam cruise, and on the first formal night, when Danni "broke out"
and wore the GOOD jewelry, the lady, whose name just happened to be
Stephanie, immediately recognized it as what it was.
Danni collects Lladro. I collect stuff I like.
--
DG in Cherry Hill, NJ
videomav...@comcast.net
"Tom & Linda" <tkan...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:DYZBd.31323$Us5....@fe10.lga...
Tom & Linda
kept negotiating the price until the person put the bracelet on the scale,
showed me the weight, the gold price at the time, and gave me a price she
couldn't go below because of the value of the gold. Once we got pretty
close to the value of the gold, I was pretty satisfied with the price.
--Tom
"Dick Goldhaber" <video...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rISdnXebsbb...@comcast.com...
G&V
The auction is a sham.
I tried to sell some art on eBay that a friend purchased on a cruise,
and found some of the same items selling for 25 cents on the dollar on eBay.
Save your money.
"Tony Rush" <nos...@therushes.net> wrote in message
news:6oigt05jkal96j5ap...@4ax.com...
The Gilberts
>When I bought my Caribbean hook bracelet in St. Croix several years ago... I
>kept negotiating the price until the person put the bracelet on the scale,
>showed me the weight, the gold price at the time, and gave me a price she
>couldn't go below because of the value of the gold. Once we got pretty
>close to the value of the gold, I was pretty satisfied with the price.
Be smart with the math or you will be taken as well. The price of
gold on the market is for PURE GOLD which is 24 Karat. Gold jewelry
is mostly 14 Karat. It is never sold as pure because it is too soft.
That means if gold is $400/oz and the scale for the jewelry says one
oz at 14 Karat, the gold is only worth $233.
Charles
<sha...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
> Be smart with the math or you will be taken as well. The price of
The sock puppet is at it again.
--
Charles
Dennis P. Harris
Rush <nos...@therushes.net> wrote:
> I don't know anything about art but I'm smart enough to know when
> something doesn't make sense. And when you can supposedly buy a
> "Renoir" for a price that's obviously too low, that should be the
> first clue to a thinking person that something is amiss.
>
> So, what's the scoop? Are they just prints or something? Are the
> appraisal figures exaggerated to make the opening bid look cheap?
>
they are prints, and the prices are ripoffs. these are designed
to snooker the ignorant, folks who have NO idea of the art
market.
but it's par for the course: the cruise industry and their
kickback partners make a lot of money off the goobers that
cruise. if pax had a clue, they would get a better vacation for
far less by travelling some other way. cruise lines are the
biggest ripoff in the travel industry.
=============================================================
If you want to see the real Alaska, don't come on a
cruise ship! See the cruise industry rogue's gallery
at http://www.cruisejunkie.com/#Environmental_Issues
Dennis P. Harris NO_SPAM_T...@gci.net
Elizabeth Ellen Harris
"Dennis P. Harris" <NO_SPAM_T...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:3j6ht0136puc54gb3...@4ax.com...
>
> if pax had a clue, they would get a better vacation for
> far less by travelling some other way. cruise lines are the
> biggest ripoff in the travel industry.
>
cruises?
schall...@webtv.net
Duck
>RIPOFF!
>
Buy if you like the art, not for an investment.
Will Christian
is "investment" art. It is not, it is only simple art.
This is exactly the same as going to the mall and paying $100 for a
diamond necklace at the jewelry store. It is so far away from being
"investment" jewelry its not even funny.
Gregory C. Read
--
Greg
readgc....@hotmail.com.invalid
(Remove the '.invalid' twice to send Email)
"Will Christian" <y...@wanto.know> wrote in message
news:ee4ot0pv7g86v5alc...@4ax.com...
Juliana L Holm
>>far less by travelling some other way. cruise lines are the
>>biggest ripoff in the travel industry.
> I think you've underestimated timeshares.
Now, Now, I HAVE a timeshare (admittedly I would not buy one, we inherited
ours). They have a good side and a bad side. But they are not an invenstment
any more than cruise line art or "fine" jewelry really is. If they have
value to you, then great. If not, save your money.
--
Julie
**********
Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
Will Christian
>What jewelry IS "investment" jewelry?
The center stone in my wifes ring. 2.5 carat weight. D color and a
VVS1 clarity. Bought it 15 years ago over seas and it is now worth a
fortune today.
The only flaw in your plan, if you want to buy something as in
"investment", that assumes you will sell it at some point to make the
profit. That damn ring will not ever leave her sight.
Gregory C. Read
"fortune" is very different than actually being able to SELL it for a
fortune.
Tobie Gerbrandt
purchased from the developers and two through resales.
Timeshares are great if you use them (which we do), but I wouldn't recommend
that anyone buy one at a demonstration. We did that many years ago but now
that we know that they are available for considerably lower prices on the
internet, we sure wouldn't go that route again. We still sometimes take the
demos for the "gifts" they offer, and to tour sites we are unfamiliar with.
Many of our wonderful vacation experiences we're had over the last twenty
years would not have happened if we didn't have the timeshares. We seldom
go on a cruise without attaching a week of timeshare in an exotic location.
YMMV
Tobie>>>>on an Island in the Pacific
"Juliana L Holm" <jh...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:crh8ql$e14b$1...@osf1.gmu.edu...
Dillon Pyron
>Lee Lindquist <n...@2.spam> wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:07:46 -0900, NO_SPAM_T...@gci.net
>> (Dennis P. Harris) wrote:
>
>>>far less by travelling some other way. cruise lines are the
>>>biggest ripoff in the travel industry.
>
>> I think you've underestimated timeshares.
>
>Now, Now, I HAVE a timeshare (admittedly I would not buy one, we inherited
>ours). They have a good side and a bad side. But they are not an invenstment
>any more than cruise line art or "fine" jewelry really is. If they have
>value to you, then great. If not, save your money.
My condo in Kona is an investment, with good appreciation and nice
cash flow. My Disney stock used to be an investment, now it's a
vehicle to bitch. Our art (original watercolors and oils, ltd edition
prints with artist remarques, etc) are for our own appreciation.
--
dillon
"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong." - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman
Dorothy Clarkson
cruise ship. Think aboutit, everything a cruise ship does is its own profit
center including the art. The hire some ex used car salesman or saleswoman
to pitch the stuff at inflated prices and get people to buy it. It is not an
auction, its a sale yet they still charge buyers premium on top of it. If
you want to buy art, buy it at home and get somehing better at a lower
price!!!
"Dillon Pyron" <dmpyron...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1ihot0h8anuaa1hga...@4ax.com...
Chrissy Cruiser
> I am amazed that anyone would think you would get a bargain for art on a
> cruise ship.
I'm amazed that you lump all art on all cruise ships in one eversweeping
statement.
> Think aboutit, everything a cruise ship does is its own profit
> center including the art.
So?
>The hire some ex used car salesman or saleswoman
> to pitch the stuff at inflated prices and get people to buy it.
Inflated relative to what?
> It is not an
> auction,
The ones I went to and bought at were.
>its a sale yet they still charge buyers premium on top of it. If
> you want to buy art, buy it at home and get somehing better at a lower
> price!!!
Bought a graphics print on the advice of my son, "can't get that author
that cheap anywhere." Bought at $195, sold in two months at $425.
So, exactly where did I screw up?
I tell you where you did. When you made the all encompassing statements
that started your post.
Dorothy Clarkson
1. I have never seen an item bid up as either a buyer pays the asked for
price or they put the item away.
2. The cruise company or art dealer owns the art, and places it up for sale.
The art is not on consignment as items are at real auctions. Since the
cruise line owns the painting, how can they charge a buyers premium, which
is a charge an auction house adds on as their profit.
3. I'm happy for you that the art you bought appreciated, but I dare say you
are the exception!!
"Chrissy Cruiser" <doubleb...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:o9b9x39o6yj6$.f0x3fzqs1v68.dlg@40tude.net...
Ray Goldenberg
<dvcl...@knology.net> wrote:
>Since the
>cruise line owns the painting,
Hi Dorothy,
The cruise lines do NOT own the paintings. The auctions are usually,
if not always, a concession by an outside firm.
Best regards,
Ray
LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL
800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905
http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Dorothy Clarkson
On Princess, the cruise line definitly owns the paintings. I believe this is
true on Carnival and others also. The warehouse is in Dania FL. But
regardless, whoever owns the paintings, is also the auctioneer. The profit
should be from the price paid. A buyers premium at real auctions is to pay
the auctioneer for their services, since the proceeds go to the owner of the
piece. On cruise ships the owner and the auctioneer are the same entity
"Ray Goldenberg" <r...@lighthousetravel.com> wrote in message
news:lvr2u0pgoskprr9nj...@4ax.com...
Tom & Linda
"Karen Segboer" <karens...@cupcaked.com> wrote in message
news:41e8886a...@news.optonline.com...
> "Dorothy Clarkson" <dvcl...@knology.net> wrote:
>
>>I have attended a "auctions" on ships because the are entertaining.
>>1. I have never seen an item bid up as either a buyer pays the asked for
>>price or they put the item away.
>>2. The cruise company or art dealer owns the art, and places it up for
>>sale.
>>The art is not on consignment as items are at real auctions. Since the
>>cruise line owns the painting, how can they charge a buyers premium, which
>>is a charge an auction house adds on as their profit.
>>3. I'm happy for you that the art you bought appreciated, but I dare say
>>you
>>are the exception!!
>
> has nothing to do with them, except to concession them.
>
> Karen
>
I thought Princess ran their own.
--Tom
Ray Goldenberg
<dvcl...@knology.net> wrote:
>On cruise ships the owner and the auctioneer are the same entity
Hi Dorothy,
I am afraid you can not say this is generally true. For your
edification, here is one of the several companies that run the art
concessions on cruise ships:
http://www.parkwestgallery.com/
Ray Goldenberg
<dvcl...@knology.net> wrote:
>On cruise ships the owner and the auctioneer are the same entity
Hi Dorothy,
I am afraid you can not say this is generally true. For your
edification, here is one of the several companies that run the art
concessions on cruise ships:
http://www.parkwestgallery.com/
As an addendum to my earlier post. As I said, almost all cruise lines
use a concessionaire. I believe Princess did and may still have this
as an in-house operation. Princess is the exception to prove the
rule. <;+)
Sue and Kevin Mullen
Ray Goldenberg wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:23:30 -0500, "Dorothy Clarkson"
> <dvcl...@knology.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Since the
>>cruise line owns the painting,
>
>
> Hi Dorothy,
>
> The cruise lines do NOT own the paintings. The auctions are usually,
> if not always, a concession by an outside firm.
Hi Ray,
Most of the cruise lines use Park West for their art auctions and it
is Park West that owns the painting. Princess is the only cruise line
that I know of, that has their own art auction company(??).
sue
Sue and Kevin Mullen
Tom & Linda wrote:
You are correct!!
sue
Dick Goldhaber
I just looked at the daily planners from our Westerdam cruise, and while I
remember that Jeff Coudriet complained that the ship would not publicize an
FOD gathering, the Art Auction happenings are listed every day.
--
DG in Cherry Hill, NJ
videomav...@comcast.net
"Tom & Linda" <tkan...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4mgEd.53773$jg5....@fe10.lga...
Jimmy
your time. Spend it more wisely on the cruise you are on and
destinations you're going to. You will have a lot more fun. Jim
Chrissy Cruiser
>>> The "art" auctioners are independant contractors. The cruise company
>>> has nothing to do with them, except to concession them.
>>>
>>> Karen
>>>
>>
>>I thought Princess ran their own.
>>
>>--Tom
>
> Sorry, don't know about Princess as I've never been on a Princess
> ship.
>
> Karens
I believe Princess is the only one who does of the major cruise lines.
Chrissy Cruiser
> The cruise company or art dealer owns the art, and places it up for sale.
> The art is not on consignment as items are at real auctions. Since the
> cruise line owns the painting, how can they charge a buyers premium, which
> is a charge an auction house adds on as their profit.
Not my understanding, tohers own the paintings.
> 3. I'm happy for you that the art you bought appreciated, but I dare say you
> are the exception!!
Thanks, I was a little nervous but my son is an expert in the area of
graphic arts. He makes several thousand a year buy/selling comic books.
E.k.R.
>
> --Tom
Princess does operate it's own art auctions in-house. I also believe
Princess Cruises is either the largest seller, or largest broker of "art" in
the world. I can't remember the exact statistic.
Ernie
Tom & Linda
"E.k.R." <eroll...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:4ejEd.4745$vM4....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
It doesn't make sense that they could do a larger volume than ParkWest,
given all the ships that ParkWest is on.
Unless they do something like act as the broker for art TO ParkWest.
--tom