Trip Report - Singapore / Malaysia
mag3
Route: EWR-(CO9)->NRT-(NW11)->SIN-(SQ106)->KUL-(SQ107)->SIN-(NW12)->NRT-(CO8)->EWR
Flight Details:
Legend: (FL) Flight #; (SD) Scheduled Departure; (DC) Door Closed; (PB) Pushback;
(WU) Wheels Up; (AT) Air Time {elapsed}; (TD) Touchdown; (GA) Gate Arrival;
(BG) Baggage Arrival;
FL: SD: DC: PB: WU: AT: TD: GA: BG:
==========================================================================
1) CO 9 11:10 11:10 11:12 11:33 12:30:07 13:03 13:13 00:00 ($)
2) NW 11 18:25 18:25 18:27 18:47 06:35:33 00:22 00:31 00:00 ($)
3) SQ 106 08:30 08:30 08:40 08:54 00:33:46 09:28 09:34 00:00 ($$)
4) SQ 107 10:20 10:20 10:27 10:43 00:36:19 11:19 11:27 00:00 ($$)
5) NW 12 06:00 06:00 06:07 06:25 06:46:32 14:12 14:20 14:55 ($$$)
6) CO 8 16:10 16:18 16:21 16:48 12:20:53 16:09 16:14 16:38 ($$$)
($) N/A - Baggage held "in transit"
($$) Baggage was already on carousel upon arrival.
($$$) Immigration completed prior to baggage arrival.
Flight Notes:
1) CO 9 - No problems at all save that BF could not board on time because
the catering truck was still up and the catering door open. THey won't
let BF board when that other door is open. So Coach started boarding first.
Once the catering door was closed, BF began to board. I've seen this before so
no big deal. Same excellent CO service as always. Smooth flight, no problems.
2) NW 11 - ARGGGGHHHH!!! It's our old nemesis the "Meal Selection" Dilemma
and once again, I became the "victim." Apparently on NW DC10's, the
rotation is to start in Row 1 - J/K Col. and work down both J/K and C/D col.
and then turn and come back up the A/B col. so that 1 A/B and 2 A/B are
last in the rotation. And of course, my choice was "unavailable." And
since my seat mate wanted the same choice, it was unavailable to him also.
The "Purser" (ISM) offered us the following to compensate:
1) The "Coach" meal (a Chicken curry close to the BF choice we wanted);
2) The "other" BF meal choice we just said we didn't want
in the first place! (I couldn't eat it for dietary reasons).
We both refused all service and had the trays taken away. I don't
know what my seat mate was thinking, but I was thinking it was
more advantageous to "own the issue" than to accept what really wasn't
very much of a compensating offering at all. NW Headquarters will get
a letter from me shortly.
3) SQ 106 - A really nice flight, albeit for the 1/2 hour or so it was. THey
even completed a small meal service with full First Class Linen etc. completed.
These guys (SQ) are good! And since they now fly from EWR, I may very well start
using them for the trunk route to Asia. THe aircraft was a 777-300ER with 3
sections FC/BF/Coach. The flight was classified for me as FC, but they closed
the FC section and put the FC pax. in the BF section. No matter. It was just a
better seat that's all.
4) SQ 107 - Equp. was a 777-200 with only "Raffles Class" and "Coach" seats. THey sat us
right up front. Raffles class seats are nice and give almost 180Deg recline. They have
laptop ports and large viewing screens. Pretty much same flight as 106 with similar
meal service.
5) NW 12 - A "newer" DC10 (relative to NW 11 flight) better seating. Flight was pretty much
uneventful except for the landing, which was delayed due to the winds/turbulence near NRT
(courtesy of Typhoon Chabba). FA's used the same order for meal taking but with some
exceptions, and this time I did get the choice I wanted. Not that it means much, given
that this was breakfast and wasn't served like a full dinner or lunch type meal. I'm
sure they had plenty of both and didn't need to portion it out.
6) CO 8 - No major problems. Arrived to go on line for check in at NRT.BF line was quick,
and scanned through x-ray, but as soon as I was done, I was "selected" for checked
baggage hand searching. I think it's because the guy saw me putting my plastic ties
on and wanted to be a (you know what).... But nonetheless, I had extra ties. I was
more concerned with the random searching at the gate. So when it was time to board,
I made sure I was 6th or 8th in line. As it turned out, my strategy was moot, since
there was only one (1) station set up, no pax. was at it, and the guards let me pass
right by. When I got on, my seat mate was already there, but there was enough space
to store everything I needed. Flight totally uneventful. They had Harry Potter POA
on "Private Screening"! Saw it 3 times!
AIRPORT OPS & NOTES:
EWR MUCH BETTER!!! Finally, they're getting it right!!! TSA is operating CTX scanners
right at Intl. check in level, Terminal "C". You check in, and then take your baggage
over to the TSA rep. who scans right there. The rep even let me wait there while it
was scanned, and when it passed, they sent it down the chute, and I moved on. TSA 1st
level screening was without any major issues. They requested shoes and belt off
(although the belt hadn't set any other scanners off later). Only concern for them was
the "flashlight" in one bag which they asked me to take out and show them. They
returned it quickly and didn't hand inspect any other carry ons.
NRT No remarkable changes from prior experiences. The EWR Rep for CO had notified
the "airside" transfer coutner at NRT that I'd be coming. The airside transfer
between Terminal 1 & 2 is very easy to setup and find. You have to go through
security to get to it, but no issues there. The "issue" was arriving between
the hours of 12-2pm, when the bus drivers are "out to lunch!" The "public" xfr bus
runs every 15 min. "except" during the lunch hours, when it's once an hour on the
hour. Meanwhile, some of the airline "alliances" (ie. "Star Alliance", "One World"
etc.) run their own private shuttles (using buses looking like the same public bus)
Which picked up at the same point, but would refuse to take pax. that didn't arrive
on an airline from their alliance, even if the bus was empty! Even if you were going
to miss a connection in the other terminal, even if the connection *is* on an "allied"
airline, well, "Sorrrrryyyy... you didn't *arrive* on one of our airlines!" I had to
wait 45 min. for the public XFR bus. Fortunately, my flight wasn't until 6:25pm.
Watch out for this one all you NRT'ers !!!
SIN/KUL In a word - WOW!!! These places are FANTASTIC!!! Changi Airport (SIN) is one of the
most pleasant airports I've been Nicely laid out, nice facilities free internet stations
airside, all the shopping you could ever ask for, and.... yes..... Are you listening
NRT & HKG ???.... THey have them!!!!!
FULL SECURED GATE ENCLOSURES AT BOTH!!!!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!
<<blushes>> Sorry folks, you know that's a sore spot with me. << Sheepish grin>>
While in transit from SIN to KUL, I stayed at the Ambassador Transit Hotel in terminal 1,
Changi Airport. For what it was, it was quite nice. A 6 hour rest for about US$35.00 in a
clean comfortable and quiet room. The only thing about it was, NO WINDOWS IN THE ROOM!!!!!!
Because, the hotel is inside the airport building I don't think any of the rooms have
windows that I could see. I'll have to ask next time. Nonetheless, there's a pool and
health spa etc etc.If you have more than a 6 hour layover (or overnight), it's great. A
little "Motel 6"ish, but great for what it does.
KUL was equally as impressive. I arrived at 10:30am and took the rapid tram line from
terminal 2 to 1 (similar to NRT) cleared immigration quickly. Upon leaving immigration,
there's a booth for the "e-xkl" service. There are porters (like the porters at DPS Bali)
which will gladly escort you and your baggage through customs and onto the KL "Ekspress"
train from the airport to KL station. For about RM100 ($27.00 US) You get a ticket for
the train, and car service to your hotel in Downtown KL (A mercedes E320 or thereabouts).
And, of course, the porter carry's your baggage. Porter picked up my checked bag (I took
only one this time - a wise decision I found out) and we proceeded to Malaysian Customs.
As it turns out, one need not use the "e-xkl" service if you don't have a lot of luggage.
There are vending machines that sell tickets for the "KL Ekspress" train to KL Sentral
train station. Once you arrive at KL Sentral, you can walk about 200 yds over to the KL
Monorail station. This monorail winds through downtown Kuala Lumpur, past several major
hotels and tourist centers. Chances are your hotel is along the way, as was mine. In fact,
I used the reverse route to go back to the airport (even with a large suitcase, carry on,
and laptop) and for a fraction of the cost (just under $10.00 US).
Immigr. Migel Cruz was right! Both Singapore and Malaysian Immigration/Customs were a breeze! In KL,
Customs all they did was scan all the baggage in the green line, and the guy actually looked like he
was half asleep at the time. No problem at all. I'm not sure if having the "e-XKL" porter
with me was of any help with Customs, but it sure didn't hurt.
Singapore was even easier. THey had the same X-ray setup in the green line, but since I was behind
the SQ crew on our flight (who always get scanned apparently), the machine was very busy.
One agent came over, and I flashed my US passport. He asked if I had anything to declare and
I shook my head. He waived me right through.
General Issues / Impressions of countries:
KL Unfortunately, I didn't get out much to see it as I had hoped to do, due to my catching a
nasty little cold 2 days after arrival. I gather my resistance was down after all that flying.
Either that, or I caught it form a pax. on the aircraft. I think that more likely because I've
done these lengthy flights before and not had a problem. I can't figure out what might have been
different this time. It may look weird, but I think I may start wearing a surgical mask in
flight because this is recidivous. I lost all my quality time in KL over this cold. But, from
what I saw of it, it was good. Got to the Petronas towers lobby, but not up to the deck (tkts.
had run out early). If you want to go up to the deck (ie. the bridge between the two towers,
which is as far as you can go), you have to be on line very early in the morning (8AM or earlier)
as there are only 600 tickets given out free each day. Once they're gone, that's it for the day.
Your ticket is given for a specific time and you must go at that time, or you will miss your
chance.
The people were wonderful. I felt absolutely safe and did not feel at all uneasy as an American.
I did see a good many Eurpoean/Australian tourists as well. Most of the hotel staff were Malay
and some Indian and were extremely friendly, but I would expect that of a good hotel/tourist
staff. My metric is how the "local people/merchants" treat you and here again, I had absolutely
no problems in Kuala Lumpur.
Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's not "in your face" at all.
in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa Malaysia" (which uses
Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic. While you do see a great many women wearing scarves, they're
also likely wearing a t-shirt and jeans with it! Little girls (ie. pre-adolecents) did not have
to wear scarves at all but just regular kid clothes. I did see some women in full burkas but not
as many as one would think. Most I saw were in the hotel restaurant at breakfast time. They all
sat in the far corner of the restaurant with their children in tow (no male adults) seemingly
segregating themselves. I'm convinced that children are children all over the world now as they
were mis-behaving like all children do. But no matter. We didn't bother them - they didn't bother
us. One also sees the Islamic influence in the choices offered for breakfast foods as well (ie.
"chicken" sausage, "turkey" ham) and "beef" bacon). The "Other White Meat" definitely not
permitted here! But other than that, it's just a country like any other. A little too much air
pollution due to all the mopeds (which didn't sit well with my cold), but I couldn't do much about
that.
I will come back here again, and again, until I get it right! Perhaps I've found a new place,
especially since I may be losing and old one (see below). And since both Singapore Air and
Malaysian Airlines fly from EWR to SIN/KUL respectively (with 1 stop), it makes it much easier!
Perhaps the thing to do is spend a few days in KL orienting one's self after the long flight,
and then head out to Kota Kinabalu or some place like that for a week or so.
S'Pore A somewhat similar experience as with KL, but clearly much less of an Islamic influence. Humidity
was higher but I was able to get out more, feeling a lot better. Hotel personnel were just
as friendly. I did have 1 or 2 minor issues with the local merchants though. In one case, as I
entered a souvenirs shop near the "Merlion," at least one of the 4-5 employees on duty kept
following me around watching every movement of my hands. They were polite, explaining about
this and that and this gift, and that gift etc., but all the time, watching me and my hands.
They did *not* do this for any of the women guests / married couples or locals who came in the
shop. Also, in two of the restaurants I visited (one on the Boat Quay; the other near the Merlion),
the service I received as a single male was less than stellar, compared to how I saw other
tourist couples and locals being treated. But, apparently, this is nothing new to me. I get this
all the time when I travel by myself, even in the USA. Frustrating, but that's an argument for
a different time.
MRT (the Metro) makes it easy to get around. It now extends all the way to Changi Airport and all
the automated announcements are in English so it's easy for Americans. You can get a fare card
that's refillable and good for several years (mine's good until 2011). The MRT runs primarily
between 6am - 12 mid (times vary for various trains) 7 days. Again, if you don't have a lot of
luggage and can take advantage of it, use the MRT to get from Changi Airport. I would recommend
a taxi if you have a lot of luggage (S$15.00 or so - $9.00 US - to downtown Singapore). There are
shuttle buses but they are slow and operate on the hour. There are also private limousines, but
are very expensive.
Japan My fourth visit here. I spent three days in Tokyo and 2 in Kyoto. Again, the heat and humidity were
factors in my getting out and about. I think it better to come back during either early April or
late November when the weather is much cooler and the skies clearer.
It also felt a little different from a people/cultrural perspective. I'm still wrestling with
my feelings at this time and I need a little time to sort them out.
Dave Fosset - if you would kindly e-mail me by following the instructions in my signature,
I'd appreciate it. I'd like take a few things off line first. Thanks much.
__________________________________
Regards,
Arnold.
E-mail address altered, to prevent spamming. :-|
Remove all asterisks and the *hates*spam* to get true address.
You may also be given an e-mail link to click to verify your e-mail
which you should only need to do once. - Thanks much - This SPAM is killing me!!!)
)
Miguel Cruz
> The people were wonderful. I felt absolutely safe and did not feel at all
> uneasy as an American. I did see a good many Eurpoean/Australian tourists
> as well. Most of the hotel staff were Malay and some Indian and were
> extremely friendly, but I would expect that of a good hotel/tourist staff.
> My metric is how the "local people/merchants" treat you and here again, I
> had absolutely no problems in Kuala Lumpur.
>
> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country
> but it's not "in your face" at all. in There is very little Arabic script
> as the national language is "Bahasa Malaysia" (which uses Malays.
> Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic. While you do see a great many women
> wearing scarves, they're also likely wearing a t-shirt and jeans with it!
> Little girls (ie. pre-adolecents) did not have to wear scarves at all but
> just regular kid clothes. I did see some women in full burkas but not as
> many as one would think. Most I saw were in the hotel restaurant at
> breakfast time. They all sat in the far corner of the restaurant with
> their children in tow (no male adults) seemingly segregating themselves.
Those women were probably tourists from the middle east. There are a LOT of
them in the summer; as it's cooler here than in the Gulf, and since Malaysia
is a majority-Muslim country, they may feel more comfortable being here and
telling their neighbors where they went.
I don't think I've seen any Malaysian women who fully covered their faces,
at least not in KL. Granted, I haven't lifted any veils to check, but based
on their husbands I'm pretty confident.
> One also sees the Islamic influence in the choices offered for breakfast
> foods as well (ie. chicken" sausage, "turkey" ham) and "beef" bacon). The
> "Other White Meat" definitely not permitted here!
Depends on where you are. In hotels - especially at the breakfast buffet -
they will usually avoid all pork products just to avoid any potential
misunderstanding (given language difficulties, etc.). But I just had some
delightful crispy pork for lunch at the Thai restaurant across the street.
At Chinese places, the first time I eat there, they will warn me if I have
ordered something that has pork in it (unless it's obvious from the name)
but after that it's business as usual - they seem to have very good memories
for pork tolerance. Sometimes there is a separation between the halal
(no-pork) and non-halal (yes-pork) vendors in food courts - opposite sides
of the aisle and so on. You can sometimes see that in Singapore too.
Supermarkets in Chinese and expat areas (like anywhere in central KL)
usually have a separate section (sometimes even a different room) labeled
"non-halal foods" in huge letters where you can stock up on bacon bits and
pork rinds.
I still don't completely understand the alcohol thing. Far as I can tell, I
can walk into 7-Eleven and buy a beer any time I want (is there a cutoff
time here? I haven't run into it yet but I really don't know); far more
easily than in the USA where I'd have to deal with ID checks and complicated
blue laws. On the other hand there are a few "dry" states in Malaysia where
7-Eleven wouldn't sell beer at all.
I have heard that they are not supposed to sell alcohol to Muslims but I
sure haven't seen anyone get turned away no matter how Malay they looked.
I am probably missing the subtleties of that rule (or it may not exist).
> But other than that, it's just a country like any other. A little too much
> air pollution due to all the mopeds (which didn't sit well with my cold),
> but I couldn't do much about that.
Agreed, the moped pollution sucks. Much better after a rain or on a clear,
windy day. Much worse on Sunday evening on Jalan Tunku Abdul Rahman when
they're all racing around!
Anyway, it sure is nice to get a good old-fashioned trip report in this
newsgroup instead of off-topic political bickering (and I know I've been as
guilty as anyone in the past).
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Alfred Molon
>Depends on where you are. In hotels - especially at the breakfast buffet -
>they will usually avoid all pork products just to avoid any potential
>misunderstanding (given language difficulties, etc.). But I just had some
>delightful crispy pork for lunch at the Thai restaurant across the street.
>At Chinese places, the first time I eat there, they will warn me if I have
>ordered something that has pork in it (unless it's obvious from the name)
>but after that it's business as usual - they seem to have very good memories
>for pork tolerance. Sometimes there is a separation between the halal
>(no-pork) and non-halal (yes-pork) vendors in food courts - opposite sides
>of the aisle and so on. You can sometimes see that in Singapore too.
>
>Supermarkets in Chinese and expat areas (like anywhere in central KL)
>usually have a separate section (sometimes even a different room) labeled
>"non-halal foods" in huge letters where you can stock up on bacon bits and
>pork rinds.
To be a bit more accurate, even chicken meat can be both halal and non-
halal. It's halal if you pray before killing the chicken, non-halal if
you don't. At the Chinese food stalls you get usually non-halal chicken.
--
Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Budapest and
Portugal
L'enqu?teur
http://www.hotelclub.net/enter.asp?id=13463&ru=directcountry%2Easp%3Fid%3D121
Maybe it's not the best but it's the most accurate...
Peter
Retired
"mag3" <mag3*hates*spam*@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:v8doj0ljse3eimebu...@4ax.com...
> Trip Report - Singapore / Malaysia 08/2004 - 09/2004
>
>
in terminal 1,
> Changi Airport. For what it was, it was quite nice. A 6 hour rest for
about US$35.00 in a
> clean comfortable and quiet room. The only thing about it was, NO WINDOWS
IN THE ROOM!!!!!!
> Because, the hotel is inside the airport building I don't think any of the
rooms have
> windows that I could see. I'll have to ask next time. Nonetheless, there's
a pool and
> health spa etc etc.If you have more than a 6 hour layover (or overnight),
it's great. A
> little "Motel 6"ish, but great for what it does.
>
.....................................
Quote from ABTN issue of 06SEP 2004 >>>>>
AIR & BUSINESS TRAVEL NEWS
A WEEKLY NEWS REVIEW PUBLISHED EVERY MONDAY
PO Box 1315, Potters Bar, Herts EN6 1PU, United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0)1707 665454
All enquiries: in...@abtn.co.uk
This email can also be viewed, with photos, on http://www.abtn.co.uk
CHANGI Singapore Airport seems to always be winning the awards for the
best airport. That is debatable and ABTN can quote some that are
arguably slightly better in some respects, but the airport is easily
the finest when it comes to pro-active PR and ideas. Changi's latest
press release concerns "The Budget Traveller's Guide to Sleeping in
Airports" which for the eighth consecutive year has voted Changi the
best. The airport's two passenger terminals have five designated areas
that provide free rest facilities. There are nearly 60 reclining
snooze chairs around the two terminals of the airport that can be used
by any traveller. Some are even fitted with vibrating alarm clocks to
wake the traveller in time for his flight. There are also massage
chairs where you can soothe your weary body. Aside from these free
facilities, travellers can also drop in at the two transit hotels
which also offer shower facilities, a swimming pool and a jacuzzi.
Travellers who do not need a room can get their rest in private bunks
at the Plaza Premium Lounge and the Rainforest Lounges and there are
200 free Internet terminals plus 100 retail shops. It seems better
than the destination. http://www.sleepinginairports.net/bestof.htm
unquote
retired/uk.
mag3
-0500:
>mag3 <mag3*hates*spam*@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> While you do see a great many women
>> wearing scarves, they're also likely wearing a t-shirt and jeans with it!
>> Little girls (ie. pre-adolecents) did not have to wear scarves at all but
>> just regular kid clothes. I did see some women in full burkas but not as
>> many as one would think. Most I saw were in the hotel restaurant at
>> breakfast time. They all sat in the far corner of the restaurant with
>> their children in tow (no male adults) seemingly segregating themselves.
>
>Those women were probably tourists from the middle east. There are a LOT of
>them in the summer; as it's cooler here than in the Gulf, and since Malaysia
>is a majority-Muslim country, they may feel more comfortable being here and
>telling their neighbors where they went.
>
Makes sense. The other place I saw them was in the big Petronas Shopping mall.
Have you ever tried to get into the glass elevator at the height of shopping time?
Talk about being a "needle in a haystack!"
>> One also sees the Islamic influence in the choices offered for breakfast
>> foods as well (ie. chicken" sausage, "turkey" ham) and "beef" bacon). The
>> "Other White Meat" definitely not permitted here!
>
>Depends on where you are. In hotels - especially at the breakfast buffet -
>they will usually avoid all pork products just to avoid any potential
>misunderstanding (given language difficulties, etc.). But I just had some
>delightful crispy pork for lunch at the Thai restaurant across the street.
That also makes sense. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "not permitted" but just
"not served." It certainly is appropriate to appeal to your more frequent customers
especially in the hotels. For those who wish to eat pork, the appropriate places
exist. Of course, not an issue in Singapore as Muslims are not their most frequent
customer.
>At Chinese places, the first time I eat there, they will warn me if I have
>ordered something that has pork in it (unless it's obvious from the name)
>but after that it's business as usual - they seem to have very good memories
>for pork tolerance. Sometimes there is a separation between the halal
>(no-pork) and non-halal (yes-pork) vendors in food courts - opposite sides
>of the aisle and so on. You can sometimes see that in Singapore too.
>
Well. if the hotels were going to the trouble of not offering pork, I would imagine
that the meats offered were at least halal or could be at least orderd as halal
upon request.
>I still don't completely understand the alcohol thing. Far as I can tell, I
>can walk into 7-Eleven and buy a beer any time I want (is there a cutoff
>time here? I haven't run into it yet but I really don't know); far more
>easily than in the USA where I'd have to deal with ID checks and complicated
>blue laws. On the other hand there are a few "dry" states in Malaysia where
>7-Eleven wouldn't sell beer at all.
The thing that got me was the "medication" thing. I went to those 7-11's (Watson's
actually) looking for some type of "Ny-Quil" for my cold. Nothing doing!!! I saw some
"Non-Alcoholic" Robitussin, but that's about it. In retrospect, I should have at least
gotten that, but no matter now. No alcohol in meds, and no pseudo-ephedrine
either!!! Sheez!!!
>I have heard that they are not supposed to sell alcohol to Muslims but I
>sure haven't seen anyone get turned away no matter how Malay they looked.
>I am probably missing the subtleties of that rule (or it may not exist).
Do they "card" Muslims/Non Muslims as they do "underaged" looking
people elsewhere???
>Anyway, it sure is nice to get a good old-fashioned trip report in this
>newsgroup instead of off-topic political bickering (and I know I've been as
>guilty as anyone in the past).
My pleasure. Altough, these days, *everything* is being politicized!! Even
Hurricanes (ie. Frances being "as big as Texas!") :-)
flyinyereye
I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on
a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
Gregory Morrow
mag3 wrote:
> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's
not "in your face" at all.
> in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa
Malaysia" (which uses
> Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.
Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country
should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw,
their station in life? Did you see any Jews? Do gays have a place in
Malaysian society? Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to
live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.
It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These
Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did
not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
that..must just be rumours!.".
Some references for you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1304569.stm
"Malaysia has some of the toughest censorship laws in the world. The
authorities exert substantial control over the media and restrictions may be
imposed in the name of national security.
The government is keen to insulate the largely-Muslim population from what
it considers harmful foreign influences on TV. News is subject to
censorship, entertainment shows and music videos regularly fall foul of the
censors, and scenes featuring swearing and kissing are routinely removed
from TV programmes and films.
[...]
Newspapers must renew their publication licences annually, and the home
minister can suspend or revoke publishing permits".
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/01/21/malays6972.htm
"When Abdullah Badawi took over from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in
October 2003, Malaysia's first change in leadership in more than two
decades, he sounded themes of democracy, good governance, and human rights
in his inauguration speech. The new administration, however, has yet to take
significant steps toward dismantling Malaysia's legal framework of
repression. Prominent human rights concerns in Malaysia include arbitrary
detention of alleged militants under the Internal Security Act (ISA); severe
restrictions on media freedom; constraints on judicial independence; and
abuses against refugees and migrants.
Restrictions on Media Freedom
Malaysia's media is largely devoid of serious criticism of the government.
Malaysians are fed a daily dose of positive news about their government, and
senior United Malays National Organisation (UMNO) politicians are
unfailingly featured in the day's headlines, always shown in a positive
light. The government maintains its control through a network of laws
curbing free expression, as well as through direct day-to-day monitoring and
control of the media. Opposition politicians and local activists have
trouble getting their message out, and strong criticism of government policy
almost never makes its way onto the pages of Malaysia's daily newspapers.
Television and radio are even more strictly controlled.
Even internet-based news sites, able to operate more freely due to
Malaysia's efforts to cast itself as a global center of cyber activity, risk
censure or even closure if they step too far out of line. In January 2003,
the offices of news website Malaysiakini were raided, and a number of
computer processors seized. Although most of the equipment was eventually
returned, Malaysiakini still operates under the threat of prosecution; the
government has yet to clear it of all charges. The ability of independent
media outlets like Malaysiakini to operate without restrictions in the
run-up to 2004 elections, which must be called before November, will be an
important barometer of press freedom."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3196234.stm
"Malaysia defends speech on Jews
Dr Mahathir is due to step down at the end of October
Malaysia has sought to play down a row over remarks by its prime minister
about Jews "ruling the world".
Mahathir Mohamad's opening speech at a summit of Muslim leaders in the
Malaysian city of Putrajaya on Thursday has been condemned around the world.
But the speech, which received a standing ovation, has been endorsed by
other Muslim leaders.
Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said the premier's remarks about
Jews had been taken out of context.
Global debate: Islam and the West
It was a "speech addressed to Muslims asking them to work hard and affirm
their personality", said the minister, adding: "I'm sorry that they have
misunderstood the whole thing".
Mr Albar said the main point of the speech had been to persuade Muslims
against using violence to pursue their aims.
But the speech was criticised by Australian Foreign Minister Alexander
Downer, as well as the governments of the United States, Germany and Italy,
which holds the presidency of the European Union.
Anti-Nazi campaigners described Mr Mahathir's words as "an absolute
invitation for more hate crimes and terrorism against Jews".
The Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), which brings together 57
national leaders representing more than a billion Muslims worldwide, has
been meeting for the first time since the 11 September attacks on America,
and the US-led war on terrorism is dominating the agenda.
'Fight them'
In his speech, Dr Mahathir called on Muslims to use brains as well as brawn
to fight Jews who, he said, "rule the world by proxy".
The OIC brings together 57 nations home to one billion Muslims
He told the leaders of the Islamic world that 1.3 billion Muslims could not
be "defeated by a few million Jews".
"This tiny [Jewish] community has become a world power. We cannot fight them
through brawn alone. We must use our brains as well," he said.
Jews, said the Malaysian prime minister, had "invented socialism, communism,
human rights and democracy" to avoid persecution and gain control of the
most powerful countries.
He added that "the Jews" were "beginning to make mistakes" and Muslims could
have "windows of opportunity... in the future". "
[...]
http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/interviews/2000/09/26/int.malay.gay2.html
'Homosexuality is a Crime Worse Than Murder'
Interview with Malaysia's morality police
By MAGESWARY RAMAKRISHNAN
September 26, 2000
Web posted at 12:40 p.m. Hong Kong time, 12:40 a.m. EDT
Abdul Kadir Che Kob describes homosexuals as "shameless people" and
homosexuality as a "sin worse than murder." Abdul Kadir is head of education
and research at Malaysia's Islamic Affairs Department, which operates as the
morality police with 50 enforcement officers across the country. These
officers are empowered to arrest Muslims -- including unmarried couples,
homosexuals, transvestites and transsexuals -- suspected of breaking Islamic
laws. Last year, 111 men were arrested in Kuala Lumpur for "attempting to
commit homosexual acts." Abdul Kadir spoke recently to TIME contributor
Mageswary Ramakrishnan. Excerpts:
TIME: How does Islam perceive homosexuality?
Abdul Kadir: Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. It is a crime worse than
murder.
TIME: What do you think of homosexuals?
Abdul Kadir: They are shameless people.
TIME: Can it be wrong for two people to be in love?
Abdul Kadir: Love? How can men have sex with men? God did not make them this
way. This is all Western influence -- and the gay people expect us to be
open- minded?
TIME: Your department made 111 arrests in Kuala Lumpur last year compared
with 165 in 1998 and 166 in 1997. Is this an indication that the number of
gays is decreasing?
Abdul Kadir: No, I don't think so. Perhaps they have become smarter in
avoiding us. Maybe the department received fewer complaints. We only act
based on complaints. It is difficult to act otherwise. How would we know
what is happening? We don't know what is happening behind closed doors.
TIME: What do you do when you receive a tip-off?
Abdul Kadir: Usually people give us precise information like where these men
are. We then go to the place, say, a hotel room. We knock and force them to
open the door, but they are usually fully clothed by then. We still charge
them for attempting to commit homosexual acts.
TIME: What about those who say that people have a right to choose who they
want to be with?
Abdul Kadir: What right are you talking about? This is a sin, end of story.
TIME: What about gay women?
Abdul Kadir: We have never arrested lesbian women. There are no complaints,
maybe because it is difficult to gauge who is a lesbian.
TIME: What happens when gay men are arrested?
Abdul Kadir: We charge them in court, but before that we put them through
what we call Islamic counseling sessions. They recite the Koran everyday and
we will tell them they have committed a grave sin.
TIME: Do these people change?
Abdul Kadir: It is difficult to make them change; it has to come from
within. I know there is very little effect. Out of 100 people, only one will
change.
TIME: If your approach is not working, then why not abandon it?
Abdul Kadir: No, we have to tell these people they are doing something very
wrong in the eyes of Allah [God]. It is a major sin. Gay people think being
gay is a fashion.
TIME: Malaysia has three major ethnic groups -- Malays, Chinese and Indians.
Is homosexuality more prevalent in some groups than others?
Abdul Kadir: It is prevalent among the Malays, I have to admit.
TIME: If homosexuality is just a fashion, why do you think so many Malay men
are willing to risk arrest by your department?
Abdul Kadir: Like I said, this is a Western influence. They also operate
very smoothly. Even if we know they are gay, we cannot arrest them unless we
receive information about them."
http://www.asiasource.org/asip/wao.cfm#malaysia
[...]
"I would now like to move on to to address the following inequalities and
discrimination that Malaysian women still face:
Citizenship
Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
Malaysia.
Immigration
Under Section 15 (1) the Federal Constitution foreign men who marry
Malaysian women cannot receive permanent residence ( P) status unlike
foreign women married to Malaysian men., although some reprieve has been
given that foreign husbands who are professionals wall be given work
permits, it still amounts to unequal opportunities for Malaysian women in
comparison to Malaysian men.
Violence Against Women
In 2000 alone, there were 1217 reported cases of rape and 3,468 cases of
domestic violence. Everyday women and girls are subjected physical, sexual
and psychological abuse, that cut across race and class. Laws relating to
rape, domestic violence and sexual harassment are still inadequate.
Rights of Muslim Women
Muslim women continue to face hardships in cases of divorce, polygamy,
custody, maintenance, and division of matrimonial property. There are
shortcomings in Syariah law and its implementation that contributes to the
abuse and injustice faced by Muslim women. For instance, while a man can
easily get divorce, the court is reluctant to grant a divorce without the
agreement of her husband.
These concrete examples of unequal treatment are not a mere flaw of the law
but it reflects a deeper value system by society. Deeply entrenched
attitudes and practices perpetuate inequality and discrimination against
women".
</>
--
Best
Greg
Miguel Cruz
> Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
> children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
> these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
> born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
> of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
> is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
> a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
> Malaysia.
It worked this way in the Netherlands up until a few years ago.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 30 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>mag3 wrote:
>
>> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's
>not "in your face" at all.
>> in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa
>Malaysia" (which uses
>> Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.
>
>
>Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country
>should be a red flag to you.
I disagree. Have you ever been there? Wonderful people.
> What is the legal status of the women you saw,
>their station in life?
Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
themselves and sell to both men and women.
> Did you see any Jews?
There never was a big local Jewish community. There used to be one
congregation in Penang, and already in the 70s, there were too few of
them to have services except when supplemented by Jewish tourists and
businessmen for the High Holy Days. It's true that the word "Jew" has
often been used as an insult in Malaysian political discourse, but my
impression is that the departure of Malaysian Jews had much more to do
with economics than anything else. I don't believe the very small
Jewish community was persecuted.
If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists
are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them
because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal
but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia.
> Do gays have a place in
>Malaysian society?
Yes, if they're quiet about it. That was true in various Western
countries a few decades ago.
> Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
>tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to
>live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
>homosexual.
Living there permanently - is that an issue in this thread? I sure as
heck wouldn't want to live in Beijing permanently but had a wonderful
time visiting there for 9 days this August.
> Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
>or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.
Women are _NOT_ chattel in Malaysia and do have rights! But yes, if
you're gay, you probably don't want to move to Malaysia.
>It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These
>Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
>well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did
>not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
>that..must just be rumours!.".
[snip]
Malaysia in 2004 is very far from Nazi Germany!
Pak Lah, the new prime minister, has exercised a calming influence on
the country and has begun making changes, though slowly and with an
eye to maintain calm. The most visible change is the recent release
from jail of former deputy prime minister, Anwar Ibrahim.
Many of the articles you posted are outdated. Dr. Mahathir is no
longer PM, and Pak Lah has distanced himself from the former PM's most
controversial remarks. If you want more information, you could post to
soc.culture.malaysia and ask for comments on how much or how little
the articles you posted are an accurate representation of today's
Malaysia. You'll get a variety of responses.
Michael
If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
EAC
> I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka,
> with a pink helium balloon on a string, whilst
> her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
> thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
Everyone are free to dressed as they please.
The best dress of course as the Qur'an said is the one that suit you.
EAC
> If you want to go up to the deck (ie. the bridge between the two towers,
> which is as far as you can go), you have to be on line very early
> in the morning (8AM or earlier)
> as there are only 600 tickets given out free each day.
As I remember, they give exactly 1000 tickets per opening day (the day
the skydeck is open to the public). Though they might have reduced it
down to 600 tickets per opening day. I don't know, I haven't checked
out Petronas website lately.
It should be noted that the observatory deck of Menara Kuala Lumpur
offer a much higher view of Kuala Lumpur than the Sky Bridge of the
Petronas Twin Towers. While going up in Menara Kuala Lumpur do have a
fee, I don't think that they limit the amount of tickets per day.
Besides, Menara Kuala Lumpur have a rotating restoraunt where you can
have a view of the city while you eat.
> The people were wonderful. I felt absolutely safe
> and did not feel at all uneasy as an American.
I guess all of those negative news and travel warnings were wrong,
were they?
Oh well... Those things (news and travel warnings) are only used to
terrorize people anyway, and not to for the benefit of the people.
> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation
> of this country but it's not "in your face" at all.
Hmmm... See below on Singapore, Kuala Lumpur actually isn't quite
Qur'anic at all.
> S'Pore A somewhat similar experience as with KL,
> but clearly much less of an Islamic influence.
Actually, Singapore is actually more Qur'anic than Kuala Lumpur. Why?
Just read the Qur'an, you will understand.
Lee Kuan Yew sure run a pretty much tight operation, eventhough that
he's a 'senior' prime minister.
Though he currently losing power ever since his former boss Suharto
was asked to come down and his fellow colleague Mahathir recently
stepped down from power.
> MRT (the Metro) makes it easy to get around.
> It now extends all the way to Changi Airport and
In the past, the M.R.T. train used to go directly to Changi Airport.
But now each passenger who want to go to Changi Airport have to stop
at the Tanah Merah interchange station and then change train to the
shuttle M.R.T. train to Changi Airport.
This change is probably due the fact that in the past it take a long
time to wait for a train that goes directly to Changi Airport, unless
the train you're riding is the direct train to Changi Airport. I think
that I once have to wait around 10 minutes, with the new shuttle
system, they probably cut down on the waiting time quite sharp.
> all the automated announcements are in English so it's easy for Americans.
Er... United States of Americans aren't the only English speaking
people in the world.
The national language of Singapore is Melayu, but English is the most
widely used language in Singapore.
There are four major official languages in Singapore. Melayu, English,
Mandarin, and Hindi. You can feel that by reading all of those warning
signs on the M.R.T. system, since that they are usually written in ALL
FOUR languages.
>You can get a fare card
> that's refillable and good for several years (mine's good until 2011).
EZ-Link card. The same type of card used in Japan (SuiCA) and Hong
Kong (Octopus), and probably also Malaysia (Touch'N'Go) and London
(Oyster) though it isn't said if they are FeliCA or not.
> I would recommend a taxi if you have a lot of luggage
> (S$15.00 or so - $9.00 US - to downtown Singapore).
And in group, because once you reached a certain amount of people,
using the M.R.T. is no longer more economic.
> Regards,
> Arnold.
m...@admin.u.nu (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:<MuidnYOTCuR...@speakeasy.net>...
> I still don't completely understand the alcohol thing. Far as I can tell, I
> can walk into 7-Eleven and buy a beer any time I want (is there a cutoff
> time here? I haven't run into it yet but I really don't know); far more
> easily than in the USA where I'd have to deal with ID checks and complicated
> blue laws.
Because they know a kid when they see one, and also I think that the
age of being adult is lower than the U.S.A. . I think that you have to
be a 21 years old to get a full adult U.S.A. driver license?
To see on how old you have to be to get a full adult Malaysian driver
license, see below:
http://www.gov.my/MyGov/CitizenSpace/LifeStages/Adolescence/Driving+License/
A 14 years old probably could haven't passed on as an adult (a.k.a.
16~17 years old) and probably would be told to scram immediately if he
insist of being an adult.
But of course, it's hard to tell if a person is either 18 years old,
21 years old, 25 years old, and so on.
The clerk in the Malaysian 7-Eleven don't need to see a driver license
to see if they can sell alcohol to the customers, because they already
know a minor when they see one. On the other hand, the clerk in an
U.S.A. 7-Eleven need to see a driver license to see if they can sell
alcohol to the customers, since they don't know if their customer is
under the age limit or not.
> On the other hand there are a few "dry" states in Malaysia where
> 7-Eleven wouldn't sell beer at all.
Either this places don't have plenty supply of beer, or... things
might have been quite chaotic if these places gotten too much beer.
> I have heard that they are not supposed to sell alcohol to Muslims but I
> sure haven't seen anyone get turned away no matter how Malay they looked.
> I am probably missing the subtleties of that rule (or it may not exist).
Well... To use the term 'muslim' is kinda incorrect, since the Qur'an
defined muslim as someone who is peaceful, which also include atheist.
One might use the term 'mu'min', but even then that isn't incorrect
either, since the Qur'an define a mu'min as someone who believe in
monotheisme / God, even a Hinduist is a mu'min (the core of Hindu is
monotheistic actually).
It might be better to said people who goes everything by the Qur'an,
but even then that isn't correct, because the Qur'an NEVER forbid
alcohol!
So the 'no-alcohol for muslims' in Malaysia thing it's just a made up
law to made people in conflict (either with themself or with others).
Fortunately, most people usually regard this kind of law as if it
didn't exist.
As for on how Melayu a person look.
The no drinking alcohol laws are for Malaysians with the identity of
'muslim', Indonesian Melayus (in any kind of way) who are quite many
in Malaysia (and also Singapore, especially Singapore) on the other
hand is off the hook.
The same goes for gambling in the Highlands. Malaysian with the
identity of 'muslim' is forbidden to enter casinos. The rest? Feel
free to come in.
Come on, where do you think most of the local tourists and expatriats
came from?
> miguel
Alfred Molon <alfred_mo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ba6d5805...@news.supernews.com>...
> To be a bit more accurate, even chicken meat can be both halal and non-
> halal. It's halal if you pray before killing the chicken, non-halal if
> you don't. At the Chinese food stalls you get usually non-halal chicken.
Well... To find out what is halal and what is not halal, one can read
the Qur'an to find out (Surat Al-Baqarah would be a good start). The
rest of the stuff that are halal but are said not halal are just made
out to defame and make it hard for people who believed in God.
Alfred Molon
>I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on
>a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
>thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
them.
Alfred Molon
>
>Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country
>should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw,
>their station in life?
Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
job.
>Did you see any Jews?
There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
not in significant numbers).
>Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?
No. Is this a problem for you ?
>Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
>tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to
>live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
>homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah
>or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.
>
>It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These
>Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
>well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did
>not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
>that..must just be rumours!.".
Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?
>"When Abdullah Badawi took over from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in
>October 2003, Malaysia's first change in leadership in more than two
>decades, he sounded themes of democracy, good governance, and human rights
>in his inauguration speech. The new administration, however, has yet to take
>significant steps toward dismantling Malaysia's legal framework of
>repression. Prominent human rights concerns in Malaysia include arbitrary
>detention of alleged militants under the Internal Security Act (ISA); severe
>restrictions on media freedom; constraints on judicial independence; and
>abuses against refugees and migrants.
Actually Badawi just freed Anwar.
<snip>
>Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
>children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
>these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
>born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
>of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
>is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
>a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
>Malaysia.
I know. I'm the father of a beautiful four months old baby and my wife
is Malaysian. Our daughter was born here in Germany and won't get a
Malaysian passport. So what ? We'll survive ;-)
S Viemeister
>
> Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to
> > children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children,
> > these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is
> > born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation
> > of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother
> > is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be
> > a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in
> > Malaysia.
>
> It worked this way in the Netherlands up until a few years ago.
>
Gregory Morrow
Alfred Molon wrote:
> flyinyereye <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> >I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon
on
> >a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
> >thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
>
> I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
> them.
Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws
to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
stonings and even death.
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Alfred Molon wrote:
> Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
country
> >should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you
saw,
> >their station in life?
>
> Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
> job.
As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
class citizens.
> >Did you see any Jews?
>
> There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
> not in significant numbers).
>
> >Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?
>
> No. Is this a problem for you ?
I'm queer. Next question....
> >Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very
> >tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose
to
> >live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or
> >homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a
pariah
> >or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation.
> >
> >It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow!
These
> >Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so
> >well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really
did
> >not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like
> >that..must just be rumours!.".
>
> Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?
Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims and in any case the climate would be
generally too hot and humid for me.
Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections
for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Pan wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >mag3 wrote:
> >
> >> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but
it's
> >not "in your face" at all.
> >> in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is
"Bahasa
> >Malaysia" (which uses
> >> Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.
> >
> >
> >Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
country
> >should be a red flag to you.
>
> I disagree. Have you ever been there?
No.
Wonderful people.
>
That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.
> > What is the legal status of the women you saw,
> >their station in life?
>
> Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
> recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
> Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
> Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
> themselves and sell to both men and women.
Wow! Such progress!
*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to
the world than National Socialism ever was.
--
Best
Greg
Pan
Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
bullshitter, which is worse than an ignoramus. Are we back to the
"monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
Remember what they say about fools speaking.
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Alfred Molon wrote:
>
>
>> Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
>country
>> >should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you
>saw,
>> >their station in life?
>>
>> Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
>> job.
>
>
>As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
>class citizens.
There are some problems. No-one claimed that Malaysia is perfect. But
the position of women is not that low in Malaysia and has been rising.
>> >Did you see any Jews?
>>
>> There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case
>> not in significant numbers).
>>
>> >Do gays have a place in Malaysian society?
>>
>> No. Is this a problem for you ?
>
>
>I'm queer. Next question....
I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.
>> Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?
>
>
>Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
[snip]
So we know how seriously to take your remarks.
[snip]
>Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections
>for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Pan wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
>> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >mag3 wrote:
>> >
>> >> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but
>it's
>> >not "in your face" at all.
>> >> in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is
>"Bahasa
>> >Malaysia" (which uses
>> >> Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.
>> >
>> >
>> >Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
>country
>> >should be a red flag to you.
>>
>> I disagree. Have you ever been there?
>
>
>No.
>
>
>Wonderful people.
>>
>
>
>That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.
When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal
with people.
>> > What is the legal status of the women you saw,
>> >their station in life?
>>
>> Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until
>> recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s.
>> Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia.
>> Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by
>> themselves and sell to both men and women.
>
>
>Wow! Such progress!
What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em.
Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got
'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the
inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in
the mid 1970s and what they're like now.
[snip]
>*Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential
>danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to
>the world than National Socialism ever was.
As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken
over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better
and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian
oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis
had taken over the world, I would never have been born.
The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about
that.
Gregory Morrow
Pan wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Alfred Molon wrote:
> >
> >> flyinyereye <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium
balloon
> >on
> >> >a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt
and
> >> >thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
> >>
> >> I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is
forcing
> >> them.
> >
> >
> >Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal
laws
> >to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
> >stonings and even death.
>
> Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
> bullshitter, which is worse than an ignoramus.
Hey you replied ;-p
Are we back to the
> "monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
> Remember what they say about fools speaking.
If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in
Tirana c. 1959!
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Pan wrote:
No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot of
humiliation.
> >> Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?
> >
> >
> >Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
> [snip]
>
> So we know how seriously to take your remarks.
You think I'm not serious?
> [snip]
> >Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
protections
> >for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
>
> Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
> strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.
>
Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...
--
Best
Greg
.
Waseem Siddiqi
tickets at 8 am but save
some tickets to be handed out at 10 am at opening time.
You are right about KL Tower - certainly better views from there and you
can take your time looking.
At the Twin Towers, by the time I finished taking quick photos and
videos, it was already time to leave.
I think it lasted abut 5 min
regards
waseem
Sjoerd
"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> schreef in
bericht news:m5n%c.9209$Vl5...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Do gays have a place in
> Malaysian society?
Yes, they do. I have got a very good gay friend in Malaysia who introduced
me to his friends. Some of them are couples openly living together and
sharing their lifes, I have been to parties with fathers and mothers and
other family members present, true they don't *talk* about being gay but it
is obvious to all present what the relationship between the guys is and they
ask me questions that make clear that they know I am gay too.
There are some nice gay bars in KL with doors open, no bell to ring, people
moving in and out to outside food stalls where food and drinks are much
cheaper and much flirting going on etc.
Again, Gregory, it shows that you seldom leave your house and have become a
bitter old man.
Sjoerd
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Pan wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
>> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Alfred Molon wrote:
>> >
>> >> flyinyereye <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium
>balloon
>> >on
>> >> >a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt
>and
>> >> >thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
>> >>
>> >> I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is
>forcing
>> >> them.
>> >
>> >
>> >Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal
>laws
>> >to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
>> >stonings and even death.
>>
>> Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a
>> bullshitter, which is worse than an ignoramus.
>
>
>Hey you replied ;-p
You're hopeless, eh?
>
> Are we back to the
>> "monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
>> Remember what they say about fools speaking.
>
>
>If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in
>Tirana c. 1959!
I'd rather be in Kansas, Toto.
Gregory Morrow
Pan wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Pan wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
> >> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >mag3 wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but
> >it's
> >> >not "in your face" at all.
> >> >> in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is
> >"Bahasa
> >> >Malaysia" (which uses
> >> >> Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
> >country
> >> >should be a red flag to you.
> >>
> >> I disagree. Have you ever been there?
> >
> >
> >No.
> >
> >
> >Wonderful people.
> >>
> >
> >
> >That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level.
>
> When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal
> with people.
People make up the societies.
I don't disagree with you. Nazism was a clear and present menace and
luckily we were able to make a concerted effort to defeat it. WWII worked -
we won and Germany and the world became a better place.
Islam is far more evil because it exists on a much greater scale and is far
more insidious. Many of it's militant adherents are not walking around in
brown shirts and spewing "Sieg Heil"! They look just like you and me. Heck
you probably could not even pick one of them out if they were checking in
for an airline flight. And you'd be real surprised to hear the kind of
stuff that goes in your local mosque. Believe you me, they are not just
some kindly quaint folk like the Amish. Additionally their hatred of Jews
is a given - it's in the air they breathe.
The struggle between medieval Islam and modern western values is going to be
a titanic one and will probably last hundreds of years into the future.
Let's hope the good guys win :-)
--
Best
Greg
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Pan wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
>> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >I'm queer. Next question....
>>
>> I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
>> because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
>> in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
>> well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
>> of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
>> Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
>> charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
>> seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
>> adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.
>
>
>No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot of
>humiliation.
Sweeps for gay and transsexual prostitutes? What are you referring to?
Somehow, based on your previous attempts to describe a fictional
country you think is called Malaysia, I don't think you know what
you're talking about.
>> >> Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?
>> >
>> >
>> >Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
>> [snip]
>>
>> So we know how seriously to take your remarks.
>
>
>You think I'm not serious?
I don't take the remarks of bigots seriously, except as indications of
bigotry.
Under orthodox Islam, sodomy is considered an abominable perversion,
much as it has been so considered under Jewish and Christian laws for
most of their recorded histories. That doesn't mean that all Muslims
are the same, nor that they are hateful people. For you to loathe
bigotry against gays is praiseworthy; for you to loathe all Muslims is
bigotry. If some anti-gay Christians can "hate the sin and love the
sinner," you have no excuse for loathing all Muslims.
>> [snip]
>> >Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
>protections
>> >for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
>>
>> Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
>> strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.
>>
>
>
>Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
>many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...
Suit yourself. You wouldn't have been able to countenance visiting
Britain in the 1960s.
Gregory Morrow
Sjoerd wrote:
> "Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> schreef
in
> bericht news:m5n%c.9209$Vl5...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > Do gays have a place in
> > Malaysian society?
>
> Yes, they do. I have got a very good gay friend in Malaysia who introduced
> me to his friends.
Yes Sjoerd I know all about these "friends" of yours. Like those Eastern
European "friends" of yours who told you a giant load of bollocks about how
great life was in Ceaucescu's Romania and Honecker's DDR...what's worse is
that you were gullible enough to erm...*swallow* their tales :--p
Some of them are couples openly living together and
> sharing their lifes, I have been to parties with fathers and mothers and
> other family members present, true they don't *talk* about being gay but
it
> is obvious to all present what the relationship between the guys is and
they
> ask me questions that make clear that they know I am gay too.
>
Sounds like "life in the closet". Been there, done that, and honey bunch I
*ain't* havin' it. No thanks.
> There are some nice gay bars in KL with doors open, no bell to ring,
people
> moving in and out to outside food stalls where food and drinks are much
> cheaper and much flirting going on etc.
I bet the boys are sweet and cheap too, eh?
> Again, Gregory, it shows that you seldom leave your house and have become
a
> bitter old man.
Huh? Now why on earth would I travel all the way to Malaysia to visit a gay
bar? I've several dozen within a mile or two of me (I live in "Boystown" on
Chicago's North Side). No need for me to "travel" for the sake of
nightlife.
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Pan wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:31:46 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Pan wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
> >> <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >> >I'm queer. Next question....
> >>
> >> I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country
> >> because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal
> >> in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very
> >> well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot
> >> of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites."
> >> Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake
> >> charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are
> >> seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for
> >> adultery and other consensual sexual offenses.
> >
> >
> >No they just do periodic "sweeps" and imprison them and cause them a lot
of
> >humiliation.
>
> Sweeps for gay and transsexual prostitutes? What are you referring to?
> Somehow, based on your previous attempts to describe a fictional
> country you think is called Malaysia, I don't think you know what
> you're talking about.
I dunno. Did you care to read the cites I provided?
Just because I've never been to St. Petersburg does not negate the fact the
place is home to a museum called The Hermitage and that most of the
inhabitants have Russian as their first tongue and that St. Petersburg is
somewhat north of Biloxi...
> >> >> Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> So we know how seriously to take your remarks.
> >
> >
> >You think I'm not serious?
>
> I don't take the remarks of bigots seriously, except as indications of
> bigotry.
See below.
> Under orthodox Islam, sodomy is considered an abominable perversion,
> much as it has been so considered under Jewish and Christian laws for
> most of their recorded histories. That doesn't mean that all Muslims
> are the same, nor that they are hateful people. For you to loathe
> bigotry against gays is praiseworthy; for you to loathe all Muslims is
> bigotry. If some anti-gay Christians can "hate the sin and love the
> sinner," you have no excuse for loathing all Muslims.
I don't have any "excuse" and I am not bigoted. I simply realize the danger
that Islam represents.
> >> [snip]
> >> >Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
> >protections
> >> >for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
> >>
> >> Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such
> >> strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Nonsense. There are plenty of places that would fit my criteria: Canada,
> >many of the EU countries, Israel, New Zealand, Oz, Japan...
>
> Suit yourself. You wouldn't have been able to countenance visiting
> Britain in the 1960s.
Well I don't have a time machine - do you?
--
Best
Greg
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I don't disagree with you. Nazism was a clear and present menace and
>luckily we were able to make a concerted effort to defeat it. WWII worked -
>we won and Germany and the world became a better place.
>
>Islam is far more evil because it exists on a much greater scale and is far
>more insidious. Many of it's militant adherents are not walking around in
>brown shirts and spewing "Sieg Heil"! They look just like you and me.
So did many Nazis. There were a lot of Nazi spies and sympathizers,
don't forget.
> Heck
>you probably could not even pick one of them out if they were checking in
>for an airline flight. And you'd be real surprised to hear the kind of
>stuff that goes in your local mosque.
Actually, I know something about what goes on in my local mosque. One
of the congregants is a convert to Islam whose Jewish (non-convert)
father is a colleague of mine.
> Believe you me, they are not just
>some kindly quaint folk like the Amish.
Sure, Muslims are not pacifists. But neither are most non-Muslim
Europeans or Americans, I daresay.
> Additionally their hatred of Jews
>is a given - it's in the air they breathe.
I've known many Muslims who don't hate Jews, including almost an
entire community of Malays among whom I lived for 2 years.
>The struggle between medieval Islam and modern western values is going to be
>a titanic one and will probably last hundreds of years into the future.
>Let's hope the good guys win :-)
What's most important is that there should be an Islamic reformation,
complete with Islamic Democratic Parties that operate within and are
committed to democratic systems but seek to promote Islamic principles
of good governance and social responsibility, much like Christian
Democratic Parties in Europe claim to. There are Muslims working to
try to reform Islam today, but in many countries, it's very dangerous
work that can result in their assassinations. Some particularly brave
reformers may be in danger even in countries like Canada, because as
we all know, rabid extremists are willing to kill anyone. Malaysia and
Iran are two countries to watch for future developments toward a form
of Islamic democracy. Malaysia has very few rabid extremists and tends
to have a "live and let live" attitude most of the time, so for
example, both PAS and Sisters in Islam can operate freely. Whether a
true Islamic democracy will develop or not, we don't know, but
something has to give. And don't forget that by far the majority of
victims of terrorism by Islamic extremists are themselves Muslims.
If you doubt what I'm saying about Islamic reformation, just think
back to what a threat the Medieval Catholic Church and Iberia after
the Reconquista were to freedom. Was it necessary to utterly vanquish
the Catholics - let alone kill them all - in order to establish the
rights you have in Europe today? Nope. Though a lot of blood was
spilled for sure.
Gregory Morrow
Pan wrote:
Not at all. I am full of hope that you will finally come 'round to my way
of reasoning concerning certain subjects.
> > Are we back to the
> >> "monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"?
> >> Remember what they say about fools speaking.
> >
> >
> >If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in
> >Tirana c. 1959!
>
> I'd rather be in Kansas, Toto.
Did you see my recent post on rec.travel.europe in the "Difference Between
East and West Germany" thread? If not, then you are prescient!
--
Best
Greg
Markku Grönroos
"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> kirjoitti
viestissä news:yPq%c.9770$Vl5....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Islam is far more evil because it exists on a much greater scale and is
far
> more insidious. Many of it's militant adherents are not walking around in
> brown shirts and spewing "Sieg Heil"! They look just like you and me.
Heck
> you probably could not even pick one of them out if they were checking in
> for an airline flight. And you'd be real surprised to hear the kind of
> stuff that goes in your local mosque. Believe you me, they are not just
> some kindly quaint folk like the Amish. Additionally their hatred of Jews
> is a given - it's in the air they breathe.
>
> The struggle between medieval Islam and modern western values is going to
be
> a titanic one and will probably last hundreds of years into the future.
> Let's hope the good guys win :-)
>
socialists in about ANY context.
Gregory Morrow
Markku Grönroos wrote:
> It is just funny how you come across with yids, moslems and national
> socialists in about ANY context.
What?
--
Best
Greg
Markku Grönroos
"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> kirjoitti
viestissä news:Fir%c.9825$Vl5....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> Markku Grönroos wrote:
>
> > It is just funny how you come across with yids, moslems and national
> > socialists in about ANY context.
>
>
> What?
>
mag3
>You are right about KL Tower - certainly better views from there and you
>can take your time looking.
Would you know if the KL tower is used as an actual minaret? I actually heard a
recorded muezzin's "call to prayer" at about 1pm on the Wed. I was there, but I
couldn't tell from where it was coming. It could have been the KL tower for all I know.
__________________________________
Regards,
Arnold.
E-mail address altered, to prevent spamming. :-|
Remove all asterisks and the *hates*spam* to get true address.
You may also be given an e-mail link to click to verify your e-mail
which you should only need to do once. - Thanks much - This SPAM is killing me!!!)
)
Sjoerd
Why the f*** do you hang out at travel newsgroups when you don't travel?
You are a sick little bitter old man, Gregory. Admit it.
Sjoerd
Pan
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
I lived for 2 years in a Malay village. My neighbors and classmates
loved me, and I loved them. I will never, ever loathe all Muslims, and
I will never consider boycotting Malaysia.
Miguel Cruz
> If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists
> are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them
> because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal
> but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia.
I was googling to refresh my memory on the little packaging symbols
(circle-U, circle-K, etc.) that indicate kosher certification, with the
intent of checking some of the food in my kitchen (all purchased at
Malaysian supermarkets, though I'm aware you're probably talking about
restaurant food). Much of the stuff imported from the USA (Post Banana Nut
Crunch, etc.) is marked, but none of the Australian and European stuff -
whether that's because they use different (or no) markings, or because it's
all packaged for export to Asia and the middle east, I don't know.
But anyway, in the first page of google results, I came across this page on
the "White Nationalist Community" forum:
http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-126394Avoiding_Kosher_Food!.html
which led me to chuckle as I imagined a pack of moron neo-nazis starving
themselves because they're so fixated on avoiding eating anything that might
be acceptable to religious Jews. It's like something from a Monty Python
sketch. What a weird world this is.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 30 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Miguel Cruz
> Alfred Molon wrote:
>> Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
>>> country should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the
>>> women you saw, their station in life?
>>
>> Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
>> job.
>
> As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
> class citizens.
Well, then you should have no beef with Malaysia. Despite the efforts (on a
state level) of some in the more conservative northeastern states - who by
the way did quite poorly in the last election - sharia is not the law of the
land here. I can drink all the alcohol and eat all the pork I want, collect
interest on loans, go bowling during prayer time, and when I get busted for
using my turn signal or failing to litter, I will go before a secular judge.
I'm afraid you really don't know what you're talking about with respect to
Malaysia.
P.S. Some guy with a malfunctioning gaydar unit was trying really hard to
pick me up in a Kuala Lumpur supermarket the other day. I don't think I'm
worth time in prison, so clearly the fear factor isn't too high.
Retired
"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:EKp%c.9509$Vl5....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
protections
> for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
>
> --
> Best
> Greg
>
>
>
retired/UK*
* that's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. ;-))
Markku Grönroos
"Pan" <panNO...@musician.org> kirjoitti viestissä
news:hl2sj09g3pu36opmq...@4ax.com...
>
> If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists
> are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them
Unless they are Israeli citizens. At least a couple of years ago Israeli
citizens (not only Jewish) were not allowed to enter Malaysia.
Mika
Malaysia currently does not grant entry on passports from
Serbia&Montenegro and Israel.
m
Miguel Cruz
>"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> protections for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
>
Bundesrepublik of Deutschland possibly?
Gregory Morrow
Retired wrote:
> "Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> message news:EKp%c.9509$Vl5....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> >
> > Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong
> protections
> > for human rights and a strong rule of secular law?
> >
> > --
> > Best
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
> Sorry Greg, but where is the BRD?
Federal Republic of Germany...
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Miguel Cruz wrote:
Okay I have a question for you then: do you use the air conditioning in
your flat or is the temp generally ideal for you (I know you like warm
weather...ISTR you saying you didn't have a/c when you lived in DC)?
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Sjoerd wrote:
How do you know I don't travel, Sjoerd...???
BTW if you ever get to Chicago I'll be glad to show you around - this sick
little bitter old man will show you a *great* time!
--
Best
Greg
Miguel Cruz
> Okay I have a question for you then: do you use the air conditioning in
> your flat or is the temp generally ideal for you (I know you like warm
> weather...ISTR you saying you didn't have a/c when you lived in DC)?
I don't use the A/C (I have it here and had it in DC, but preferred to use a
fan). But I live near the top of a high-rise, in a corner apartment, so I
have a strong breeze most of the time. Late at night it actually gets chilly
up here - if I'm sitting on the balcony working in the wee hours, I
sometimes have to put on a sweater. Indoors I keep a fan on low most of the
time. Down at street level it's definitely warmer than up here.
Much as I like the warm weather, it's clear that I have a long way to go
before I'm as acclimated as people here. The last few days have been a bit
cool (I've been briefly tempted to wear long pants) but I've seen people
walking around in puffy jackets and knit hats!
Overall, I would say the weather is comparable to DC summers, but not quite
as hot in the daytime and it cools off much more at night. And no fear of
impending winter, which was a big downer from mid-August onwards.
ggg
>
> I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on
> a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
> thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
>
>
before 9-11, I wanted to travel to Iran and to wear a burkha. They look
like awesome sun protection.
Waseem S.
mag3 wrote:
>>You are right about KL Tower - certainly better views from there and you
>>can take your time looking.
>>
>>
>
>Would you know if the KL tower is used as an actual minaret? I actually heard a
>recorded muezzin's "call to prayer" at about 1pm on the Wed. I was there, but I
>couldn't tell from where it was coming. It could have been the KL tower for all I know.
>
>
No its not. Its a telecom tower. The muezzin call can only come from a
mosque, it can't be
"redirected" via something else. Not sure which mosque you heard it from
though
regards
waseem
Not the Karl Orff
>
> We both refused all service and had the trays taken away. I don't
> know what my seat mate was thinking, but I was thinking it was
> more advantageous to "own the issue" than to accept what really wasn't
> very much of a compensating offering at all. NW Headquarters will get
> a letter from me shortly.
Not much. If you are an elite, NW will give you a voucher for not much.
Some miles, or complimentary drink ir headset rental.
> 3) SQ 106 - A really nice flight, albeit for the 1/2 hour or so it was. THey
> even completed a small meal service with full First Class Linen etc.
> completed.
> These guys (SQ) are good! And since they now fly from EWR, I may very well
> start
> using them for the trunk route to Asia. THe aircraft was a 777-300ER with 3
SQ may have *just* ordered some examples of these but they do not have
any 777-300ERs in service. Just -300s, and 200ERs.
Retired
"ggg" <goodg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LSF%c.32914$Ot3....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> flyinyereye wrote:
>
> >
> > I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon
on
> > a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
> > thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
> >
> >
a full black burka in the street was only introduced a few years ago in
countries
like Afganistan and others...
And the decision was welcomed by the women there !!!
It was a new sign of freedom,
before that, men forbade the women to go out in the street on their own
FULL STOP
retired/uk.
Miguel Cruz
> Not so long ago, on an SAfrica newsgroup, it was quoted that the wearing
> of a full black burka in the street was only introduced a few years ago in
> countries like Afganistan and others...
>
> And the decision was welcomed by the women there !!!
>
> It was a new sign of freedom,
> before that, men forbade the women to go out in the street on their own
> FULL STOP
A friend of mine from the conservative north of Pakistan was returning home
after a few years in the USA. I asked her if she was going to miss anything
after she left.
"Well, you know, just walking around here," she said.
"Yeah, this part of town is great for walks. But I'm sure there are areas of
your city that are quiet and pretty too."
"No," she said, "I just mean walking around outside. When I go home I can't
do that."
It was the kind of thing I sort of knew on a factual level already, but to
hear it in such a direct way from someone I knew as an avid user of parks
and restaurants and cafes really brought home how different life can be in
various places.
mk
<gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Alfred Molon wrote:
>
>> flyinyereye <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon
>on
>> >a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and
>> >thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong.
>>
>> I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing
>> them.
>
>
>Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws
>to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g.
>stonings and even death.
in singapore, they get whipped....
Pan
They certainly are if they are dual citizens travelling on the
passports of countries recognized by Malaysia. Otherwise, it is to the
discretion of the Malaysian Foreign Ministry and I suppose that's
usually not that easy to obtain (except for some sports clubs).
Pan
wrote:
>Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Alfred Molon wrote:
>>> Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowLU...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic
>>>> country should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the
>>>> women you saw, their station in life?
>>>
>>> Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a
>>> job.
>>
>> As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second -
>> class citizens.
>
>Well, then you should have no beef with Malaysia. Despite the efforts (on a
>state level) of some in the more conservative northeastern states - who by
>the way did quite poorly in the last election - sharia is not the law of the
>land here. I can drink all the alcohol and eat all the pork I want, collect
>interest on loans, go bowling during prayer time, and when I get busted for
>using my turn signal or failing to litter, I will go before a secular judge.
[snip]
Many Malaysians claim that there's a clear difference between Shari'ah
and Hudud Law. Hudud Law specifies death for adultery, for example,
and the root of "Hudud," I understand, is "Hadd," meaning "limit" - as
in the most severe punishment that can supposedly be justified under
Sunnah (Islamic Law). There is in fact a dual legal system in
Malaysia, with Shari'ah Law coexisting with civil law. Muslims deal
with family law before Shari'ah judges. Such judges also punish
Muslims arrested by the state religious police, if you will, for
"khalwat" (a man and a woman not married to each other nor close
relatives alone together), observing "deviant" religious practices, or
apostasy (though the right to apostasize is supposedly protected under
the Malaysian constitution). Shari'ah courts have no power to impose
Hudud sentences (execution, etc.) but do impose fines and sometimes
jail people who refuse to "repent" from their doctrinal "heresy." You
may not be aware of these facts, Miguel, but if you're not, read the
Malaysian English-language papers and Malaysiakini more often and talk
to friends of yours who wouldn't mind discussing such sensitive
subjects, if you know people like that.
HK
interest of Our Government agency's encrypted log access files...
PROPOSAL to Franchise Karl Rove's White House Murder Inc... NASDAQ's IPO...
*****************************************************************
http://www.outsupport.org/forum/viewtopic/985.html
http://forum.shrc.org/english/bb/Fo...TML/000030.html
http://www.fpa.org/thread_msg2597/t...TML/000194.html
***Special CONFIRMED Report. ****Assassins; who put Al-Qaeda to Shame.
The Number three most powerful man , after Dick Cheney & G.W. BUSH .
ALL Ariel Sharon's servants , Thugs & Murderers.
Karl ROVE & Ariel Sharon banking on their Syrian killers & Murderers &
Special Syrian Assassins of Assef Shawkat & Roustom Ghazali Working for
Sharon and the Worst NEOCONS.
Special I.C.C. Investigation; The Hague NL. & Belgium .Etc. Etc.....
****************************************************
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Specia...2104madsen.html [ Disabled by Karl
Rove's Thugs & Killers.]....@Goo...@CIA.GOV.....& the republican Rags....
***********************************************************
Karl Rove's White House " Murder, Inc."
By Wayne Madsen .
Online Journal Contributing Writer .
SEP, 2004- On September 15, 2001, just four days after the 9-11 attacks,
CIA Director George Tenet provided President [sic] Bush with a Top Secret
"Worldwide Attack Matrix"-a virtual license to kill targets deemed to be a
threat to the United States in some 80 countries around the world. The Tenet
plan, which was subsequently approved by Bush, essentially reversed the
executive orders of four previous U.S. administrations that expressly
prohibited political assassinations.
According to high level European intelligence officials, Bush's counselor,
Karl Rove, used the new presidential authority to silence a popular Lebanese
Christian politician who was planning to offer irrefutable evidence that
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon authorized the massacre of hundreds of
Palestinian men, women, and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra
and Shatilla in 1982. In addition, Sharon provided the Lebanese forces who
carried out the grisly task. At the time of the massacres, Elie Hobeika was
intelligence chief of Lebanese Christian forces in Lebanon who were battling
Palestinians and other Muslim groups in a bloody civil war. He was also the
chief liaison to Israeli Defense Force (IDF) personnel in Lebanon. An
official Israeli inquiry into the massacre at the camps, the Kahan
Commission, merely found Sharon "indirectly" responsible for the slaughter
and fingered Hobeika as the chief instigator.
The Kahan Commission never called on Hobeika to offer testimony in his
defense. However, in response to charges brought against Sharon before a
special war crimes court in Belgium, Hobeika was urged to testify against
Sharon, according to well-informed Lebanese sources. Hobeika was prepared to
offer a different version of events than what was contained in the Kahan
report. A 1993 Belgian law permitting human rights prosecutions was unusual
in that non-Belgians could be tried for violations against other
non-Belgians in a Belgian court. Under pressure from the Bush
administration, the law was severely amended and the extra territoriality
provisions were curtailed.
Hobeika headed the Lebanese forces intelligence agency since the mid- 1970s
and he soon developed close ties to the CIA. He was a frequent visitor to
the CIA's headquarters at Langley, Virginia. After the Syrian invasion of
Lebanon in 1990, Hobeika held a number of cabinet positions in the Lebanese
government, a proxy for the Syrian occupation authorities. He also served in
the parliament. In July 2001, Hobeika called a press conference and
announced he was prepared to testify against Sharon in Belgium and revealed
that he had evidence of what actually occurred in Sabra and Shatilla.
Hobeika also indicated that Israel had flown members of the South Lebanon
Army (SLA) into Beirut International Airport in an Israeli Air Force C130
transport plane. In full view of dozens of witnesses, including members of
the Lebanese army and others, SLA troops under the command of Major Saad
Haddad were slipped into the camps to commit the massacres. The SLA troops
were under the direct command of Ariel Sharon and an Israeli Mossad agent
provocateur named Rafi Eitan. Hobeika offered evidence that a former U.S.
ambassador to Lebanon was aware of the Israeli plot. In addition, the IDF
had placed a camera in a strategic position to film the Sabra and Shatilla
massacres. Hobeika was going to ask that the footage be released as part of
the investigation of Sharon.
After announcing he was willing to testify against Sharon, Hobeika became
fearful for his safety and began moves to leave Lebanon. Hobeika was not
aware that his threats to testify against Sharon had triggered a series of
fateful events that reached well into the White House and Sharon's office.
On January 24, 2002, Hobeika's car was blown up by a remote controlled bomb
placed in a parked Mercedes along a street in the Hazmieh section of Beirut.
The bomb exploded when Hobeika and his three associates, Fares Souweidan,
Mitri Ajram, and Waleed Zein, were driving their Range Rover past the
TNT-laden Mercedes at 9:40 am Beirut time. The Range Rover's four passengers
were killed in the explosion. In case Hobeika's car had taken another route
through the neighborhood, two additional parked cars, located at two other
choke points, were also rigged with TNT. The powerful bomb wounded a number
of other people on the street. Other parked cars were destroyed and
buildings and homes were damaged. The Lebanese president, prime minister,
and interior minister all claimed that Israeli agents were behind the
attack.
It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party. The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it.
High level European intelligence sources now report that Karl Rove
personally coordinated Hobeika's assassination. The hit on Hobeika employed
Syrian intelligence agents. Syrian President Bashar Assad was trying to
curry favor with the Bush administration in the aftermath of 9-11 and was
more than willing to help the White House. In addition, Assad's father,
Hafez Assad, had been an ally of Bush's father during Desert Storm, a period
that saw Washington give a "wink and a nod" to Syria's occupation of
Lebanon. Rove wanted to help Sharon avoid any political embarrassment from
an in absentia trial in Brussels where Hobeika would be a star witness. Rove
and Sharon agreed on the plan to use Syrian Military Intelligence agents to
assassinate Hobeika. Rove saw Sharon as an indispensable ally of Bush in
ensuring the loyalty of the Christian evangelical and Jewish voting blocs in
the United States. Sharon saw the plan to have the United States coordinate
the hit as a way to mask all connections to Jerusalem.
The Syrian hit team was ordered by Assef Shawkat, the number two man in
Syrian military intelligence and a good friend and brother in law of Syrian
President Bashar Assad. Assad's intelligence services had already cooperated
with U.S. intelligence in resorting to unconventional methods to extract
information from al Qaeda detainees deported to Syria from the United States
and other countries in the wake of 9-11. The order to take out Hobeika was
transmitted by Shawkat to Roustom Ghazali, the head of Syrian military
intelligence in Beirut. Ghazali arranged for the three remote controlled
cars to be parked along Hobeika's route in Hazmieh; only few hundred yards
from the Barracks of Syrian Special Forces which are stationed in the area
near the Presidential palace , the ministry of Defense and various
Government and officers quarters . This particular area is covered 24/7 by a
very sophisticated USA multi-agency surveillance system to monitor Syrian
and Lebanese security activities and is a " Choice " area to live in for its
perceived high security .... [Courtesy of the Special Collections Services.]
... SCS... ; CIA & NSA & DIA....
The plan to kill Hobeika had all the necessary caveats and built-in denial
mechanisms. If the Syrians were discovered beforehand or afterwards, Karl
Rove and his associates in the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans would be
ensured plausible deniability.
Hobeika's CIA intermediary in Beirut, a man only referred to as "Jason" by
Hobeika, was a frequent companion of the Lebanese politician during official
and off-duty hours. During Hobeika's election campaigns for his
parliamentary seat, Jason was often in Hobeika's office offering support and
advice. After Hobeika's assassination, Jason became despondent over the
death of his colleague. Eventually, Jason disappeared abruptly from Lebanon
and reportedly later emerged in Pakistan.
Karl Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika may not have been
the last "hit" he ordered to help out Sharon. In March 2002, a few months
after Hobeika's assassination, another Lebanese Christian with knowledge of
Sharon's involvement in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres was gunned down
along with his wife in Sao Paulo, Brazil. A bullet fired at Michael Nassar's
car flattened one of his tires. Nassar pulled into a gasoline station for
repairs. A professional assassin, firing a gun with a silencer, shot Nassar
and his wife in the head, killing them both instantly. The assailant fled
and was never captured. Nassar was also involved with the Phalange militia
at Sabra and Shatilla. Nassar was also reportedly willing to testify against
Sharon in Belgium and, as a nephew of SLA Commander General Antoine Lahd,
may have had important evidence to bolster Hobeika's charge that Sharon
ordered SLA forces into the camps to wipe out the Palestinians.
Based on what European intelligence claims is concrete intelligence on
Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika, the Bush administration
can now add political assassination to its laundry list of other misdeeds,
from lying about the reasons to go to war to the torture tactics in
violation of the Geneva Conventions that have been employed by the Pentagon
and "third country" nationals at prisons in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay.
Wayne Madsen is a Washington, DC-based investigative journalist and
columnist. He served in the National Security Agency (NSA) during the Reagan
administration and wrote the introduction to Forbidden Truth. He is the
co-author, with John Stanton, of "America's Nightmare: The Presidency of
George Bush II." His forthcoming book is titled: "Jaded Tasks: Big Oil,
Black Ops, and Brass Plates." Madsen can be reached at:
WMads...@aol.com
This is some of the evidence for you and for the World ....
*********************************************
~~~encrypted/logs/access ~~~
Not to mention hundreds of private companies and governments. Anyway...
*********************************************************
Lines 10-36
of my logfiles show a lot of interest in this article:
# grep sid=1052 /encrypted/logs/access_log|awk '{print $1,$7}'|sed -n
'10,36p'
spb-213-33-248-190.sovintel.ru /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
ext1.shape.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
server1.namsa.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
ns1.saclantc.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
bxlproxyb.europarl.eu.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
wdcsun18.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
wdcsun21.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
tcs-gateway11.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
tcs-gateway13.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
relay1.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
relay2.cia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
relay2.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
n021.dhs.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
legion.dera.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
gateway-fincen.uscg.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
crawler2.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
crawler1.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
gateway101.gsi.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
gate11-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
gate13-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
fw1-a.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
crawler13.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
fw1-b.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
bouncer.nics.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
beluha.ssu.gov.ua /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
zukprxpro02.zreo.compaq.com
/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052....
To be continued ....For Decades.!!!!!
HOLLYWOOD FL.... ATTA & Aris2F...Dis...ney...
DENVER CO...
ART STUDENTS...
MOVERS- INC.@ORG.IL
Lakam & Mr.X. MEGA....Feith, woolfowitz...Perle, Maaloof, etc.
OSP, SCS, DIA, M.I. etc....
Etc. Etc.
mement0
> > 3) SQ 106 - A really nice flight, albeit for the 1/2 hour or so it was.
THey
> > even completed a small meal service with full First Class Linen etc.
> > completed.
> > These guys (SQ) are good!
err...SQ as in Singapore Queer? hehehe...
Jamie B
I've noticed some of their international flights can be a bit pricy on their
website, but I know travel agents get discounts.
I'm think of FRA or MUC to SIN
Or LON to SIN
(I not to bothered about what country the agent is, as long as I can get the
ticket)
Thanks,
Jamie
"Pan" <panNO...@musician.org> wrote in message
news:r7eak012boo5g203l...@4ax.com...
nobody
> Why, there's a country I could name that just swept a crazy man into
> power again ... one who invades other countries without moral or
> legal justification. Can you imagine that?
Yep, Australia re-elected Howard.
:-)