IMTEC (kid in candy store)
Mark Kovalcson
booth I got to talk with a LOT of people like ( Rob Shirley, Walter
Meloon, and Bob Alkema) to drop a few names from a much larger list..
The inboard manufactures present at IMTEC are CC, MC, Malibu,
Supra/Moomba, Toyota, Ski Centurion, Gecko, Infinity, American Skier and
noticeably absent was Tige'.
Infinity: This is a neat boat I like its functionality as a serious
slalom ski boat designed for that function exclusively. I hope there is
a large enough market there to keep this going. Rob Shirley mentioned
that they are not even sure they want to build an open bow. The stuff
that has been released about this boat doesn't cover its differences
enough. Rob says that it runs flatter at a slower speed( ie. great for
kids slalom events) and drives and handles better than any other boat
out there. He made many comments about it being a race car compared to
others. The gas tank was moved forward of the engine which helps make
the wake less impacted by having a full or near empty gas tank underline
some of the thought that went into this. I'll cover a this in detail
later. I could write pages on this and probably will. Unfortunately I
won't get a test drive while here :( ... but I do know someone who will
be test driving it soon who is a veteran competion driver of lots of
events.
MC: The big news at MC is that the company is now owned by the top four
MC officers John Dorton, Scott Crutchfield and Two others that I can't
remember the names of. The bottom line is that MC management owns MC.
The ProStar 190 interior is VASTLY improved. Business is good and my
impression is that there are signs of the renewed commitment to this
sport. Scott Crutchfield is having a good influence on them from what I
can see. BTW I was told that the new 2000 interior is now open to view
on the MC web site.
CC: The new digital dash is evolutionary. I was very surprised to see
what it looked like after the rumors I heard. This displays are not
electromechanical, they are completely electronic. The gauges are now
LCD displays. There is no key. It has an off and on button and a 4
number pad to put in a security lock. The radio is now by the drivers
elbo under a pad (similar to Malibu's set up). There were also other
less used gauges by the drivers right arm. The new N swish was on all
the boats displayed. More for later after I get a few more differences
demonstrated..
Malibu had a 390HP corvette engine on display that they will be using in
their Corvette boat next year. I tried kneeling on their swim platform
and putting my arm through the hatch to latch and lock the wedge. It
worked pretty easily. I know this is old news, but I had never seen it.
They had their new big boat a 22.5 foot wakeboard boat on display as
well as the Malibu spinning up in the air.
Supra/Moomba: Lots of boats were on display. I especially liked the
Supra Comp Limited edition. Pretty neat if not a bit glitzy.
In the slalom ski world
KD now has a KD CR7 which is about 2 lbs lighter than the old KD7000,
but retains approximately the same color scheme. They have stiffened it
up a bit for better acceleration. The 2000 KD7000 now has the color
scheme as the KD6500 used to. BTW I was told that at my level I should
be on a KD3000 and not a top of the line ski. Got to love those ego
squashing apples ;)
Jobe is out in force. Their binders look interesting.
O'Brien has what look to be much more durable binders then the ones I
had seen on the G3,G3 model skis. There is more to them now. The EVA
model looked very well built. I guess I will have to rethink my feelings
about their binders. They have discontinued the pizo-electric dampening,
claiming that it worked much better than their viscous dampening ever
did but that it was too expensive to continue producing.
Humor of the day :)
One of the guys involved with SOLO thought it was being considered to
pull the slalom skiing event in the Olympics because it would eliminate
the driver and make it a real skier/driver against skier/driver
competition. This guy didn't seem interested in that fact that slalom
skiers wouldn't like grabbing a metal handle with no padding that
required a knuckles up position to drive it, never mind tracking and
speed control. A guy in one of the other booths mentioned that the SOLO
was the perfect gift for a skier without any friends......
Until tomorrow....
BTW This is the Readers Digest version. I am preparing an illustrated
article.
Tom Ruta
>IMTEC has been really interesting so far. While waiting to set up in my
>booth I got to talk with a LOT of people like ( Rob Shirley, Walter
>Meloon, and Bob Alkema) to drop a few names from a much larger list..
>
Did you meet Sue Posters? <G>
...
>Infinity: ... I hope there is
>a large enough market there to keep this going. Rob Shirley mentioned
>that they are not even sure they want to build an open bow.
Well, they are either crazy or very confident.
>.... BTW I was told that the new 2000 interior is now open to view
>on the MC web site.
>
We'll see if quality is up to match.
>CC: The new digital dash is evolutionary.
Evolutionary? Malibu's Computron predates that by a bit.
Say three or 4 years?
>I was very surprised to see
>what it looked like after the rumors I heard. This displays are not
>electromechanical, they are completely electronic.
Out of curiosity, anyone ever had to replace the electronic
dash in a Corvette car? (What's that line about how much
money???)
>The gauges are now
>LCD displays.
How do they stop the inevitable sun fade?
> There is no key. It has an off and on button and a 4
>number pad to put in a security lock.
This should be a laugh riot to use at night... Or in a
hurry.
>The radio is now by the drivers
>elbo under a pad (similar to Malibu's set up).
Somewhere, some engineer is doubled over in laughter. It
was a poor idea when Malibu started it - what would possess
CC to follow Malibu?
...
>Malibu had a 390HP corvette engine on display that they will be using in
>their Corvette boat next year.
The LS-1 block I assume? Any word of the LS-6?
> I tried kneeling on their swim platform
>and putting my arm through the hatch to latch and lock the wedge. It
>worked pretty easily. I know this is old news, but I had never seen it.
Designed by Big Bob himself. It is very slick, isn't it?
>They had their new big boat a 22.5 foot wakeboard boat on display as
>well as the Malibu spinning up in the air.
>
I'll be seeing (and probably reviewing) the Escape LSV next
week.
...
>In the slalom ski world
>
>KD now has a KD CR7 which is about 2 lbs lighter than the old KD7000,
>but retains approximately the same color scheme.
And priced like Goode I'm told.
...
>O'Brien ... discontinued the pizo-electric dampening,
>claiming that it worked much better than their viscous dampening ever
>did but that it was too expensive to continue producing.
>
Yeah, LEDs aren't cheap.
>Humor of the day :)
>
>One of the guys involved with SOLO thought it was being considered to
>pull the slalom skiing event in the Olympics because it would eliminate
>the driver and make it a real skier/driver against skier/driver
>competition. This guy didn't seem interested in that fact that slalom
>skiers wouldn't like grabbing a metal handle with no padding that
>required a knuckles up position to drive it, never mind tracking and
>speed control. A guy in one of the other booths mentioned that the SOLO
>was the perfect gift for a skier without any friends......
>
Did you have the heart to tell those poor saps that the Solo
is illegal almost everywhere in North America. Where _is_
their market anyway???
Good up date - thanks!
Tom
Mark Kovalcson
> Did you meet Sue Posters? <G>
I will today, but the tone has changed. The individual issuing warnings
earlier was only doing what he was told. Now he is in charge. There is a
difference.
> >Infinity: ... I hope there is
> >a large enough market there to keep this going. Rob Shirley mentioned
> >that they are not even sure they want to build an open bow.
>
> Well, they are either crazy or very confident.
Confident is an understatement. There were a number of things I would be
concerned about that I was told they aren't worried about. I do wish them
luck and after seeing all the differences between this boat and every other
tournament ski boat I think they may have a market. It may not be huge, but I
think it exists. I was told that there are 100 applicants for 50 promo slots
already and Rob thinks that they will be pulling some records behind this
boat. Time will tell.
> Evolutionary? Malibu's Computron predates that by a bit.
> Say three or 4 years?
Notice I said "evolutionary" not revolutionary. All the separate round gauges
are still there. Malibu's Computron was a single display that was not very
readable in many conditions. It was a sign of things to come, but not ready
yet in my opinion. From the field testing yesterday, I understand CC's gauges
are not only very readable but they have a number of additional features that
are helpful. More later.
> Out of curiosity, anyone ever had to replace the electronic
> dash in a Corvette car? (What's that line about how much
> money???)
Since these are all separate, we are not talking about a monolithic dash unit
that would need replacing. These are just separate fully electronic gauges.
They don't look custom and they are not ugly like the Corvette's electronic
dash was before the C5 when back to analog looking guages.
> > There is no key. It has an off and on button and a 4
> >number pad to put in a security lock.
>
> This should be a laugh riot to use at night... Or in a
> hurry.
The off button is fairly large and RED. The on button is somewhat smaller.
The touch panel is not flat, but I haven't tried feeling for the start button
like I do for my key when I drive my boat at night, but you bring up a really
good point. I'm guessing that with a little time you would be able to stab at
it pretty easily. I'll let you know tonight.
> >The radio is now by the drivers
> >elbo under a pad (similar to Malibu's set up).
>
> Somewhere, some engineer is doubled over in laughter. It
> was a poor idea when Malibu started it - what would possess
> CC to follow Malibu?
My guess would be limited dash board space, now that the Perfect Pass system
has dedicated space etc. etc..
> >Malibu had a 390HP corvette engine on display that they will be using in
> >their Corvette boat next year.
>
> The LS-1 block I assume?
Yes
> Any word of the LS-6?
No.
> > I tried kneeling on their swim platform
> >and putting my arm through the hatch to latch and lock the wedge. It
> >worked pretty easily. I know this is old news, but I had never seen it.
>
> Designed by Big Bob himself. It is very slick, isn't it?
For the application, yes.
> >KD now has a KD CR7 which is about 2 lbs lighter than the old KD7000,
> >but retains approximately the same color scheme.
>
> And priced like Goode I'm told.
I didn't ask.
> Did you have the heart to tell those poor saps that the Solo
> is illegal almost everywhere in North America. Where _is_
> their market anyway???
I could make lots of comments about how tuned in to their potential market
they are. Delusional comes to mind. Pretty booth though and BTW they have
all kinds of SOLO apparel available already, hats, jackets, polo's, sweaters.
You name it.
Tom Ruta
...
>Confident is an understatement. There were a number of things I would be
>concerned about that I was told they aren't worried about. I do wish them
>luck and after seeing all the differences between this boat and every other
>tournament ski boat I think they may have a market. It may not be huge, but I
>think it exists. I was told that there are 100 applicants for 50 promo slots
>already and Rob thinks that they will be pulling some records behind this
>boat. Time will tell.
>
I suppose there nothing wrong with a niche market. They can
join the zillions of other boat makers. Building a brand
isn't something that will happen easily. They'll need more
than luck.
>Notice I said "evolutionary" not revolutionary....
I caught that the first time - I've always thought of
evolution as upward refinement leading to a higher and
better app. This IMO doesn't sound like that. Interesting,
but useless.
>> Out of curiosity, anyone ever had to replace the electronic
>> dash in a Corvette car? (What's that line about how much
>> money???)
>
>Since these are all separate, we are not talking about a monolithic dash unit
>that would need replacing. These are just separate fully electronic gauges.
>They don't look custom
Marine LCD gauges not custom? For kicks, ask about the
retrofit kit for an existing boat. If Kysor is charging
around US $400 for a set of electromechanical gauges, I'sd
guess a thousand bucks.
>...and they are not ugly like the Corvette's electronic
>dash was before the C5 when back to analog looking guages.
>
Which is what you'll see here, redux in a couple of years.
But the industry will be better for it.
>The off button is fairly large and RED. The on button is somewhat smaller.
>The touch panel is not flat, but I haven't tried feeling for the start button
>like I do for my key when I drive my boat at night, but you bring up a really
>good point. I'm guessing that with a little time you would be able to stab at
>it pretty easily. I'll let you know tonight.
>
The biggest thing I see as the problem is that this is
outside the box (paradigm) for car/boat operation. A key is
part and parcel of operating a car. Heck my old SAAB Turbo
had the key on the floor and I can't tell you how that
little change flummoxed people; let alone a pushbutton on
the dash that will be used constantly.
<glug, glug,...sound of poor boat idea sinking>
...
>My guess would be limited dash board space, now that the Perfect Pass system
>has dedicated space etc. etc..
>
Will someone PLEASE build a steering wheel with a hollow
spindle so that we can have honest to goodness auto-style
cruise control? FWIW, I think Accucski implementation in
Malibu is slicker than any round gauge.
...
>> Did you have the heart to tell those poor saps that the Solo
>> is illegal almost everywhere in North America. Where _is_
>> their market anyway???
>
>I could make lots of comments about how tuned in to their potential market
>they are. Delusional comes to mind. Pretty booth though and BTW they have
>all kinds of SOLO apparel available already, hats, jackets, polo's, sweaters.
>You name it.
Solo - sales of one. A nice ring to it, donchathink? I'd
say buy your souvenirs now.
Tom
Ross Carlisle
>dash in a Corvette car? (What's that line about how much
>money???)
On a pre 90 C4 you can have it rebuilt cheap by a number of companies (about
$350). To replace would be stupid money (around $1500...I think)
>...
>>Malibu had a 390HP corvette engine on display that they will be using in
>>their Corvette boat next year.
>
>The LS-1 block I assume? Any word of the LS-6?
Its the LT4 isnt it?
>
>>Humor of the day :)
>>
>>One of the guys involved with SOLO thought it was being considered to
>>pull the slalom skiing event in the Olympics because it would eliminate
>>the driver and make it a real skier/driver against skier/driver
>>competition. This guy didn't seem interested in that fact that slalom
>>skiers wouldn't like grabbing a metal handle with no padding that
>>required a knuckles up position to drive it, never mind tracking and
>>speed control. A guy in one of the other booths mentioned that the SOLO
>>was the perfect gift for a skier without any friends......
>>
>
>Did you have the heart to tell those poor saps that the Solo
>is illegal almost everywhere in North America. Where _is_
>their market anyway???
>
They seem to be under the impression that it is legal in something like 40
states. These guys must have more money than sense. I mean...to spend the
money they spend to market a product that is illegal to own just about
everywhere in the free world. Might be interesting to here from every state
on the subject...Ill start a new thread.
Mark Kovalcson
Tom Ruta wrote:
> I suppose there nothing wrong with a niche market. They can
> join the zillions of other boat makers. Building a brand
> isn't something that will happen easily. They'll need more
> than luck.
I think they have more than luck going for them at this point.
> >Notice I said "evolutionary" not revolutionary....
>
> I caught that the first time - I've always thought of
> evolution as upward refinement leading to a higher and
> better app. This IMO doesn't sound like that. Interesting,
> but useless.
You need to see the pictures. There are some things that are different and then
there are things that change your whole perspective. Until now my idea of state of
the art was the large oversized guages used by Malibu, Infinity, American Skier,
and just a few others. What CC has is where things are going. The start stop is
really easy to feel for compared to a key. The stop button is larger and sticks
out and the start is recessed. With my eyes closed it took me about 1 second to
get to the start button. You put your hand down it catches on the stop button
which also centers your hand over the start button. You'd have to try it. It is
idiot proof. Really. The speedo has something that the computron system had. Once
you set your speed it has a bar that suggests whether you should add or subtract
gas. Malibu had it one better with the LEDS that were in color, but since the
guage is electronic and anything can be displayed there is more information
available at a glance from certain instruments than a dial would allow.
> Marine LCD gauges not custom? For kicks, ask about the
> retrofit kit for an existing boat. If Kysor is charging
> around US $400 for a set of electromechanical gauges, I'sd
> guess a thousand bucks.
I don't know. I'm sure we will know soon enough. The touch panel side where the
switches used to be and the On/Off key code section are probably custom. The
switches for the lights, blower, etc, etc, are now represented by icons on the
right side of the dash. They were able to put a lot more switches in an easy to
view and tactile arrangement.
> >...and they are not ugly like the Corvette's electronic
> >dash was before the C5 when back to analog looking guages.
>
> Which is what you'll see here, redux in a couple of years.
> But the industry will be better for it.
They have analog looking gauges but there is additional information in the round
guage. So you have an analog speed representation and in the same display you have
other digital information.
> The biggest thing I see as the problem is that this is
> outside the box (paradigm) for car/boat operation. A key is
> part and parcel of operating a car. Heck my old SAAB Turbo
> had the key on the floor and I can't tell you how that
> little change flummoxed people; let alone a pushbutton on
> the dash that will be used constantly.
I think it looks correct now. In fact I think it looks much more correct now.
Weren't you compaining about the placement of the key on your boat. Something
about hurting your knees on it??? I for one would not miss my key.
> Will someone PLEASE build a steering wheel with a hollow
> spindle so that we can have honest to goodness auto-style
> cruise control? FWIW, I think Accucski implementation in
> Malibu is slicker than any round gauge.
There are a lot of good ideas out there. MC has a stereo control that is mounted
in a very easy to get to place and controls the radio which is in there glove box.
I found out that one of the design considerations for removing the radio from the
dash was to improve leg room. The new CC dash is 1.5 inches higher. No keys and
less dash to hit you knees on. Accuski has a round guage now Tom. Many were
commenting about the improved software on the Accuski and its features.
> Solo - sales of one. A nice ring to it, donchathink? I'd
> say buy your souvenirs now.
You want me to buy you a Solo sweater ?
Tom Ruta
>
Money?
...
>You need to see the pictures.
Take any? If so, send 'em on over.
>There are some things that are different and then
>there are things that change your whole perspective. Until now my idea of state of
>the art was the large oversized guages used by Malibu, Infinity, American Skier,
>and just a few others. What CC has is where things are going. The start stop is
>really easy to feel for compared to a key. The stop button is larger and sticks
>out and the start is recessed. With my eyes closed it took me about 1 second to
>get to the start button. You put your hand down it catches on the stop button
>which also centers your hand over the start button. You'd have to try it. It is
>idiot proof. Really.
Design a system even a fool can use and only one will.
I'm betting that this goes nowhere.
>The speedo has something that the computron system had. Once
>you set your speed it has a bar that suggests whether you should add or subtract
>gas.
Uh.. if you set speed why do you have to add gas?
>Malibu had it one better with the LEDS that were in color, but since the
>guage is electronic and anything can be displayed there is more information
>available at a glance from certain instruments than a dial would allow.
>
I can see where things like wind speed, barometric pressure,
instantaneous fuel consumption and direction would be nice
to have, I really LOVE the trip computer in the van.
>> Marine LCD gauges not custom? For kicks, ask about the
>> retrofit kit for an existing boat. If Kysor is charging
>> around US $400 for a set of electromechanical gauges, I'sd
>> guess a thousand bucks.
>
>I don't know. I'm sure we will know soon enough. The touch panel side where the
>switches used to be and the On/Off key code section are probably custom. The
>switches for the lights, blower, etc, etc, are now represented by icons on the
>right side of the dash. They were able to put a lot more switches in an easy to
>view and tactile arrangement.
>
Icons? DO they have names on them or replaceable tags or
is it AUX1 etc.?
>> >...and they are not ugly like the Corvette's electronic
>> >dash was before the C5 when back to analog looking guages.
>>
>> Which is what you'll see here, redux in a couple of years.
>> But the industry will be better for it.
>
>They have analog looking gauges but there is additional information in the round
>guage. So you have an analog speed representation and in the same display you have
>other digital information.
>
There's a whole school of design for avionics and jamming
everything into one place is eschewed in planes for good
reason. I see confusion here - heck, newbies have a hard
time differentiating between RPMs and speed. Imagine what
happens if they see phases of the moon or air temp or
whatever in there.
...
>I think it looks correct now. In fact I think it looks much more correct now.
Push buttons fit with retro design in vogue now. I can see
that as being far too easy for my kids to operate and a bear
in adverse (night, panic situation etc.) conditions.
>Weren't you compaining about the placement of the key on your boat. Something
>about hurting your knees on it??? I for one would not miss my key.
>
I only complained about the placement of the key. Besides,
you are still going to have one for the rear locker, glove
box, truck, trailer lock etc.
>> Will someone PLEASE build a steering wheel with a hollow
>> spindle so that we can have honest to goodness auto-style
>> cruise control? FWIW, I think Accucski implementation in
>> Malibu is slicker than any round gauge.
>
>There are a lot of good ideas out there. MC has a stereo control that is mounted
>in a very easy to get to place and controls the radio which is in there glove box.
BFD - available from the stereo guys for years. Now if the
stereo controls were in the steering wheel...
>I found out that one of the design considerations for removing the radio from the
>dash was to improve leg room. The new CC dash is 1.5 inches higher.
That sounds like a bad idea - reduce see through to cram
more gauges. That is one thin g that CC had going for it -
great view from the drivers seat. My Malibu needs a LOWER
dash, not a higher one.
>No keys and
>less dash to hit you knees on. Accuski has a round guage now Tom.
But it takes up too much room, which is why the little 2" x
4" rectangle is a great implementation IMHO.
>Many were
>commenting about the improved software on the Accuski and its features.
>
It sure seems like they are on the rise.
>> Solo - sales of one. A nice ring to it, donchathink? I'd
>> say buy your souvenirs now.
>
>You want me to buy you a Solo sweater ?
Sure - Large. <g> Unless you are giving away PerfectPull
ones!
Tom
Mark Kovalcson
> >I think they have more than luck going for them at this point.
> Money?
And experience and talent.
> >You need to see the pictures.
>
> Take any? If so, send 'em on over.
I've only limited to 40 pictures a day with my digital camera. I have about 60+
pictures at this point. I'm putting an article together for a website.
> Design a system even a fool can use and only one will.
> I'm betting that this goes nowhere.
I'd put money on this one. You need to see and touch these controls.
> >The speedo has something that the computron system had. Once
> >you set your speed it has a bar that suggests whether you should add or subtract
> >gas.
>
> Uh.. if you set speed why do you have to add gas?
When you don't have or aren't using the PP.
> I can see where things like wind speed, barometric pressure,
> instantaneous fuel consumption and direction would be nice
> to have, I really LOVE the trip computer in the van.
Tom........ (no comment)
> Icons? DO they have names on them or replaceable tags or
> is it AUX1 etc.?
No, I said ICONS. There are symbols or pictures that are part of the dash. They are not
labels, stickers or non permenant. There is a switch for every option whether you have
it or not. Heater and hot water shower for example.
> There's a whole school of design for avionics and jamming
> everything into one place is eschewed in planes for good
> reason. I see confusion here - heck, newbies have a hard
> time differentiating between RPMs and speed. Imagine what
> happens if they see phases of the moon or air temp or
> whatever in there.
You are jumping to conclusions. In this case I would say the newbie actually has more
information to let him know what he is looking at.
> I only complained about the placement of the key. Besides,
> you are still going to have one for the rear locker, glove
> box, truck, trailer lock etc.
American Skier has an electromechanical lock mechanism that requires AC on to operate.
So I believe all keys could be eliminated. I haven't checked to see how CC is handling
those locks.
> BFD - available from the stereo guys for years. Now if the
> stereo controls were in the steering wheel...
You use your stereo that much while you are driving the boat to need stereo controls
there? I rarely run my stereo except when I am sitting around waiting and then getting
to the controls is hardly a rushed task.
> That sounds like a bad idea - reduce see through to cram
> more gauges. That is one thin g that CC had going for it -
> great view from the drivers seat. My Malibu needs a LOWER
> dash, not a higher one.
I didn't say the whole dash went up. By removing the radio and thining it out they have
more leg room. They didn't move the top of the dash up.
> But it takes up too much room, which is why the little 2" x
> 4" rectangle is a great implementation IMHO.
You make alot of assumptions about the size of this without having seen one.
> >You want me to buy you a Solo sweater ?
>
> Sure - Large. <g> Unless you are giving away PerfectPull
> ones!
So far I have Perfect Pull embroidered denim caps and polo's in black, red and white.
I'll send you a picture.
Scott Bennett
> less dash to hit you knees on.
...and more dash for your eyes. Gee, my knees or a more obstructed view?
Higher? IMO in the 1999 SN and Sport/Air a driver could just barley see between the
top of the dash and the windshield frame anyway. I would have liked to have seen the
dash stay the same height or lower.
Scott
Tom Ruta
...
>> Design a system even a fool can use and only one will.
>> I'm betting that this goes nowhere.
>
>I'd put money on this one. You need to see and touch these controls.
>
Five bucks.
>> Uh.. if you set speed why do you have to add gas?
>
>When you don't have or aren't using the PP.
>
If I want to be nagged about speed...
...
>No, I said ICONS. There are symbols or pictures that are part of the dash. They are not
>labels, stickers or non permenant. There is a switch for every option whether you have
>it or not. Heater and hot water shower for example.
>
And what if you want to add something? Use the wrong
label?
And the idea of a membrane reminds me too much of the
"keyboard" on the old IBM PC jr. (which died for a very good
reason).
>> There's a whole school of design for avionics and jamming
>> everything into one place is eschewed in planes for good
>> reason. I see confusion here - heck, newbies have a hard
>> time differentiating between RPMs and speed. Imagine what
>> happens if they see phases of the moon or air temp or
>> whatever in there.
>
>You are jumping to conclusions. In this case I would say the newbie actually has more
>information to let him know what he is looking at.
>
At the risk of sounding macabre, that is exactly what
happened is recent high profile crash of Martha's Vineyard.
Really - how much information do you really need on a ski
boat?
>American Skier has an electromechanical lock mechanism that requires AC on to operate.
>So I believe all keys could be eliminated. I haven't checked to see how CC is handling
>those locks.
>
Out of curiosity, have you tried those new electronic door
(house) locks? They sound neat - heaven help you if there's
a power failure.
>> BFD - available from the stereo guys for years. Now if the
>> stereo controls were in the steering wheel...
>
>You use your stereo that much while you are driving the boat to need stereo controls
>there? I rarely run my stereo except when I am sitting around waiting and then getting
>to the controls is hardly a rushed task.
>
You have to remember that the vast majority of ski boats are
used in a recreational mode. That's why PP and stereo
controls in the wheel make good sense. You can control
stuff without removing your hands from the wheel. Go find a
car with an aftermarket cruise control mounted on the dash
and you'll see what I mean.
>> That sounds like a bad idea - reduce see through to cram
>> more gauges. That is one thin g that CC had going for it -
>> great view from the drivers seat. My Malibu needs a LOWER
>> dash, not a higher one.
>
>I didn't say the whole dash went up. By removing the radio and thining it out they have
>more leg room. They didn't move the top of the dash up.
>
You said the dash was 1.5 inches higher. If the below the
windshield didn't change, that is good.
>> But it takes up too much room, which is why the little 2" x
>> 4" rectangle is a great implementation IMHO.
>
>You make alot of assumptions about the size of this without having seen one.
>
I've seen the pictures <g>.
Tom
Howell
Tom Ruta <ru...@cadvision.com> wrote in message
news:396a129f.2676626014@news.supernews.com...
> Mark Kovalcson <ma...@perfectpull.com> wrote:
> >You are jumping to conclusions. In this case I would say the newbie
actually has more
> >information to let him know what he is looking at.
> >
>
> At the risk of sounding macabre, that is exactly what
> happened is recent high profile crash of Martha's Vineyard.
> Really - how much information do you really need on a ski
> boat?
>
quick call Piper and tell them to remove a few instruments so low hour
pilots might live; oh better let the NTSB know that they are wasting their
time because you've got it figured out.........very poor taste Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>quick call Piper and tell them to remove a few instruments so low hour
>pilots might live; oh better let the NTSB know that they are wasting their
>time because you've got it figured out.........very poor taste Tom
>
I warned you that it was macabre. As to the proximate
causes of many incidents, inexperience combined with
confusing gauge readings moves to the forefront.
Adding lots of extraneous info _Can't_ be good for new
drivers.
Tom
Ross Carlisle
It is that as a newbie private pilot you do not know how to use them
properly. Every instrument in a plane is there for a reason. Personally I
dont think that there should be an instrument rating in the aviation world.
I think that it should be part of your private pilot training. Believe it
or not...The JFK accident is very common...Ive been in that situation
myself. You are flying along at night, fly into a cloud and all of a sudden
there are no ground lights..no reference points to keep the plane straight
and level (except the instruments). If you do not have a clue as to how to
use the instruments...you are in big trouble.
In the boating world though...I agree with Tom. How much information do you
need?
Ross...
Howell wrote in message ...
>
>Tom Ruta <ru...@cadvision.com> wrote in message
>news:396a129f.2676626014@news.supernews.com...
>> Mark Kovalcson <ma...@perfectpull.com> wrote:
>> >You are jumping to conclusions. In this case I would say the newbie
>actually has more
>> >information to let him know what he is looking at.
>> >
>>
>> At the risk of sounding macabre, that is exactly what
>> happened is recent high profile crash of Martha's Vineyard.
>> Really - how much information do you really need on a ski
>> boat?
>>
>
Howell
Ross Carlisle <rrc...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:7phdi0$5...@chronicle.concentric.net...
> As long as we are on the subject...The problem is not to many intsruments.
> It is that as a newbie private pilot you do not know how to use them
> properly. Every instrument in a plane is there for a reason. Personally
I
> dont think that there should be an instrument rating in the aviation
world.
> I think that it should be part of your private pilot training. Believe it
> or not...The JFK accident is very common...Ive been in that situation
> myself. You are flying along at night, fly into a cloud and all of a
sudden
> there are no ground lights..no reference points to keep the plane straight
> and level (except the instruments). If you do not have a clue as to how
to
> use the instruments...you are in big trouble.
bull really me too. last time I checked (10 yrs ago) hood work was part of
the Private ticket and candidates were required to demonstrate competency in
simulated IMC to pass the check ride. give me a break do you really think a
non instrument rated pilot is going to freak and look at the clock or
something? no, but he might look out the window and get spatially disorientd
PDQ. how can you say the JFK accident is common when you have no earthly
clue as to what happened in the cockpit that night. let's see.....medical,
mechanical, meteorological all come to mind but too many instruments now
thats a SWAG if I ever heard one.
>
> In the boating world though...I agree with Tom. How much information do
you
> need?
>
so just remove all the info after all you could drag a rope and hold your
speed like the old days- by how many "knots" come out of the water
Mark Kovalcson
> >I'd put money on this one. You need to see and touch these controls.
> >
>
> Five bucks.
Make it 10. Oh, and make that American dollars. This is really advanced. I found out more
today. There is a computer that checks both speedo inputs and the tach 66 times per second
and chooses the most accurate one. As far as the replacement cost issue, apparently CC has
rights to this stuff for a little while before others can use it. So you won't find
replacement parts for it in Overton's any time soon.
> >No, I said ICONS. There are symbols or pictures that are part of the dash. They are
> notlabels, stickers or non permenant. There is a switch for every option whether you
> haveit or not. Heater and hot water shower for example.
>
> And what if you want to add something? Use the wrong
> label?
Actually there is a generic accessory switch left on purpose. Of course you could use the
ballast tank buttons if you have a SN ;)
> And the idea of a membrane reminds me too much of the
> "keyboard" on the old IBM PC jr. (which died for a very good
> reason).
I was told the accessory switches are rated at 1,000,000 cycles and about 50 years. Also
the whole on/off lock section is in an easily replacable circular fixture.
> Out of curiosity, have you tried those new electronic door
> (house) locks? They sound neat - heaven help you if there's
> a power failure.
CC is still using mechanical locks. One interesting lock for the rear trunk on CC's that
have rear trunk is located next to the drivers seat.
> You said the dash was 1.5 inches higher. If the below the
> windshield didn't change, that is good.
I reread what I said and I should have worded the improved knee room better.
> >You make alot of assumptions about the size of this without having seen one.
> >
>
> I've seen the pictures <g>.
I hadn't sent them to you before you made that comment. Looks like a standard 2.5" circular
fitting to me.
CAILR
!!!<<Evolutionary? Malibu's Computron predates that by a bit.
Say three or 4 year>>
finders in mine and it still did not work
Tom Ruta
You can make it $20 rupees as far as I'm concerned.
>This is really advanced. I found out more
>today. There is a computer that checks both speedo inputs and the tach 66 times per second
>and chooses the most accurate one.
And the baseline for accuracy is????
> As far as the replacement cost issue, apparently CC has
>rights to this stuff for a little while before others can use it. So you won't find
>replacement parts for it in Overton's any time soon.
>
IOW, you'll pay through the nose. In keeping it seems...
...
>Actually there is a generic accessory switch left on purpose. Of course you could use the
>ballast tank buttons if you have a SN ;)
>
Or use Tige's dedicated switch or Malibus LCS switch.
>> And the idea of a membrane reminds me too much of the
>> "keyboard" on the old IBM PC jr. (which died for a very good
>> reason).
>
>I was told the accessory switches are rated at 1,000,000 cycles and about 50 years.
MTBF? I can only say that any experience I've had with
those membrane switches in heavy usage has been dismal.
>Also
>the whole on/off lock section is in an easily replacable circular fixture.
>
And it costs how much?
...
>CC is still using mechanical locks. One interesting lock for the rear trunk on CC's that
>have rear trunk is located next to the drivers seat.
>
So you will have to keep a key somewhere anyway.
...
>> I've seen the pictures <g>.
>
>I hadn't sent them to you before you made that comment. Looks like a standard 2.5" circular
>fitting to me.
What makes you think you are the only one sending me
pictures and info from IMTEC???<g>
Tom
Kevin R Baugh
the "electronic dash" a few years ago. Then they discovered that the
consumer was not so much in love with it. They soon went back to analog
gauges.
--
Kevin R. Baugh
krb...@ezl.com
http://www.ezl.com/~krbaugh
http://www.ezl.com/~krbaugh/carla
Hammrski <hamm...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:19990821102916...@ngol02.aol.com...
> Regarding the dash, it is slick. The button pads have a high
> quality/durability feel to them. It is not even close to the simple
> computron/centurionics set up. It's like comparing computers 5 years ago
to
> today. Big difference. The dash switches are completely sealed front and
> back, centralizing all the wiring to the control box is very clean. The
new
> speedo is real trick. After you dial in the speedo to the speed you wish,
you
> set up the deviation for 1mph and a large bar graph appears at the bottom
to
> show you how close you are to the speed. Something like this:
>
> ** is the center of the bar graph.
>
> ----------** means too slow **--------- means too
fast
>
> ** two bars in the center and you are dead on.
>
> It is very visual and very accurate. The sampling on the pitot's are over
10x
> per second and will always automatically shift to the accurate pick up in
case
> of a plugged line. The pressure sender is located at the back of the boat
so
> speedo lines are only 18" long instead of 15' long, again accuracy is the
> result.
>
> I had the chance to speak with the rep from Teleflex and a lot of testing
went
> into this unit with Bill Snook to get it right. It is again very
accurate!
> Teleflex has hit a home run with this speedo, CC has the first year
exclusive
> on this, and you can bet you last buck it will be on most of the boats
next
> year.
>
> You all know the saying, the only real test is yours. Check it out for
> yourself.
>
> Jim
> Jim
> http://www.hammerski.com
> Hammer's Ski & Marine, Inc.
> Petaluma-Rancho Cordova Ca.
> New! Online Store
>
NIBRAL1
>I'm betting that this goes nowhere.
>
Really, Tom!? And what do you call a person that has never seen a picture much
less the system and feels the need to run it down? A fool, maybe.
Fact - SeaRay has been using the keyless system, similar pad, same manufacturer
and I don't see them spiralling around the rim.
Get a grip Tom, your bias is showing.
ttfn
nibral1
P.S. Saw you working the crowd Mark K. hope the show has gone well for you.
Sorry I did not stop, had a limited amount of time and quite a few of my
vendors to see.
NIBRAL1
>could use the
>ballast tank buttons if you have a SN ;)
>
It is even more advanced than that. With the serial processor, you have the
ability to add in additional pads, up to the capacity of the box. It also
eliminates all those nasty wire looms, four wires and it works all the
devices. Very cool. Last time I worked with stuff like this it was in million
dollar ATE systems, never thought I'ld see it in 30K ski boats. See the
government is good for something - they foot the bill on the r&d to get us
something useful on the consumer side.
ttfn
nibral1
rutat
> >Design a system even a fool can use and only one will.
> >I'm betting that this goes nowhere.
> >
>
> Really, Tom!? And what do you call a person that has never seen a picture much
> less the system and feels the need to run it down? A fool, maybe.
>
Like you? I have pictures. I know where the components are from. DO
you???
> Fact - SeaRay has been using the keyless system, similar pad, same manufacturer
> and I don't see them spiralling around the rim.
>
WOW! Searay. That has to be the highwater mark in boat technology and
marine electronics.
> Get a grip Tom, your bias is showing.
Why - I don't like Malibu's Computron Nintendo dash either.
Tom
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Hammrski
Bare Foot
I'm at IMTEC. I have not had a chance to look at MC yet. I saw CC's new
dash design and I must say it is very impressive, as is the boat. (For
you Boneheads, I don't care who had the digital gauges first!) The CC is
a "must see" as well as other vessels. I'm all for new products and
designs that make skiing and life better. I believe this is called
progress! I will report on others as I get around.
DM
(Barefoot)
Jim Thompson
>
> You have to remember that the vast majority of ski boats are
> used in a recreational mode. That's why PP and stereo
> controls in the wheel make good sense. You can control
> stuff without removing your hands from the wheel. Go find a
> car with an aftermarket cruise control mounted on the dash
> and you'll see what I mean.
>
This year my Malibu had the cruise control display (PP) mounted on a
cell phone holder at the right edge of the dash by the throttle.
After using this for awhile the in-dash units seemed very clumsy
to operate. I could keep my hand on the wheel and adjust trick
speeds or reset the timer in slalom without having to reach over
the wheel. If you could use the buttons in the steering wheel it
might be the same.
>
Jim Thompson tho...@texaco.com
Hlades Law: "When you have a difficult job, give
it to a lazy man,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
NIBRAL1
>you???
>
>> Fact - SeaRay has been using the keyless system, similar pad, same
>manufacturer
>> and I don't see them spiralling around the rim.
>>
>
>WOW! Searay. That has to be the highwater mark in boat technology and
>marine electronics.
>
>> Get a grip Tom, your bias is showing.
>
>Why - I don't like Malibu's Computron Nintendo dash either.
>
>Tom
>--
>Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
>Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Well, again Tom you haven't been paying attention. I was there. And not only
that thanks to my connections and a good friend in the prop business, I was in
fact able to take one of the new CC's out for a drive. So unlike you, I am not
working from pictures and a Malibu sales training manual -- I have first hand
knowledge of the system.
Further the manufacturer is Grayhill, Inc. their Electronics and Systems
Division.
LaGrange, IL.
I would also agree in whole with Mr. Hammer's review, there is nothing to add.
So, in the immortal words of the owner of the MC190 who I managed to p.o.
BITE ME!!!!!!!!!
Tom Ruta
...
>So, in the immortal words of the owner of the MC190 who I managed to p.o.
>
>BITE ME!!!!!!!!!
Another erudite posting. Thanks - but maybe you ought to
look into a vapour recovery system for the prop show you
supposedly run- the heavy metal is affecting your usually
nice demeanor.
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>This year my Malibu had the cruise control display (PP) mounted on a
>cell phone holder at the right edge of the dash by the throttle.
>
>After using this for awhile the in-dash units seemed very clumsy
>to operate. I could keep my hand on the wheel and adjust trick
>speeds or reset the timer in slalom without having to reach over
>the wheel. If you could use the buttons in the steering wheel it
>might be the same.
Bingo! Even CC last year was mounting the CC Cruise close
to the throttle area. Far better idea than a dash. Heck,
if Mercury can put trim control on the throttle, why can't I
replace the throttle knob with a control handle? Anyone
know the PP pinouts?
Tom
NIBRAL1
>look into a vapour recovery system for the prop show you
>supposedly run- the heavy metal is affecting your usually
>nice demeanor.
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
Actually Tom, it is a shop not a show, and I alread have sufficient systems in
place, thank you. The shop is listed with D&B so you can take your snide
'supposedly' and file that where the sun doesn't shine. And the Al dust will
cause dementia, however I was already nuts, because I opened a prop shop in the
first place, so it will be very difficult to determine any detrimental effects,
since the baseline was skewed to begin with.
You can do better Tom. Or can you? Without that Malibu script in hand you're
pretty weak. Your comments thus far are boat show rhetoric and you seem to
have a Malibu hand stuffed far enough up your back side they can manipulate
your fingers and mind.
And, you're right about my demeanor. I do try to stay fair. Which is why I
did not expound on the new CC system. I am a techy and really like these types
of things, but I had a limited exposure to them and until my local dealer has
one and I get to drive it some more at a few tournements/fun events/my own
enjoyment, I was going to keep my initial impressions to myself.
Well you found the right nerve, and this boat show bs is not going to fly. IF
you have seen the system and IF you have driven the system, THEN we would be
interested in your (un)BIASED viewpoint.
But, you have done none of the above. A quick review of your own preivous
highly (un)biased posts shows that you until now have at least made an attempt
to view and drive the product before throwing stones - - now- - we get a
review because you got some pictures from Malibu? Think about it. You should
be glad I am the only one, thus far, holding you to task. Even I, could
probably find something I don't like about the new CC dash, given time and
exposure to it. But, I have not had that time and exposure so till then I will
refrain from criticizing it. Can you do the same?
Heck, you already got your new boat at dealer cost, what else do they have on
you? Nudey pictures? Pictures of you with a sheep? A contract for your first
born? At least stick to the original script and pretend to test and form your
(un)biased reports. They were much more believable then.
I was correct on the manufacturer of the keypad system, wasn't I? Too painful
to acknowledge that I got it right? Or are you still looking for the answer
yourself? Cannot concede information you do not have already? Be careful, ask
questions like that only when you already have the answer.
And you scoff at SeaRay for using these pads on 400K boats? Are you nuts?
SeaRay is either #1 or #2 in sales from 18' through 40'+ boats. And
MasterCraft is #3 in the 18-20 and #4 in the 20-23 class. Registered owners,
1998, independent survey. I am sure you all saw this in a recent boating
magizine. MC, screwed up boat and all is still King and the rest of you are
just making it up as you go along. Malibu may be #2 or even CC but either one
has a way to go to catch MC. This is in the contest for most units sold and
registered. And based on their new adds (MC), I'ld say they have the cannon
leveled on one company only, so look out. The court jester is about to find
himself locked away in the dungeon for awhile, longer if MC has its way.
ttfn
nibral1
Tom Ruta
<nibral's sad dementia revealed once and for all, snipped
if only to save him further embarrassment>
LOL! Thanks for your telling post. I really could care
less what you or anyone else thinks about my boat choices.
I can, and have bought _exactly_ what suits me best. I'm
enjoying it immensely. You kind sir are welcome to believe
what ever your little mind wants to believe, but let me
assure you I get NOTHING from Malibu - other than the
satisfaction of knowing that the boat on my mooring buoy is
doing a bang up job for my needs.
Do write back when you have something worthwhile to add to
this thread, will you. I'm sure it will be entertaining
even it is your usual jibberish.
Tom