Ragging on CC!
Scott Bennett
number one choice. For example, In Austin the number of new boat
registrations for just the third quarter of 1998 tells it all. More
than double the Malibu, MasterCraft, Tige', and Centurion registrations
combined.
Why is that? I have a hard time believing that no one knew that there
where other inboard makers out there. Correct Craft's aren't cheap so
it wasn't price! Sure wasn't the old Teleflex gauges. Honestly, one of
you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
brand. These servo controlled gauges are also similar to those in the
1998 Corvette. Check out the postings under the auto news group and
Chevrolet web site. LOTS of unhappy 1998 Corvette owners. I would much
rather have a gauge that works and is proven than a new one that belongs
in a car not a boat.
We all have our opinions, talk is cheap. I personally just bought a
1999 Sport Nautique but not without first checking out EVERY body and
taking two years to finally decide. I think what finally made my
decision was the fact that Correct Craft has no gimmicks in their
product. For example, no long boxes with water in it to absorb
vibrations (by the way when I test drove the 1998 Response the hydro
dampening box was leaking into the bilge, watch out for this Malibu has
had problems). I am not saying that Correct Craft is really all that
much better, I have had my new boat back to the dealer.
For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
Tom Ruta
>What is so hard to understand. Correct Craft is STILL the world's
>number one choice.
In terms of sales? I think not. It is a tier one craft?
Absolutely.
>For example, In Austin the number of new boat
>registrations for just the third quarter of 1998 tells it all. More
>than double the Malibu, MasterCraft, Tige', and Centurion registrations
>combined.
>
Gee, that's representative of the whole inboard market
isn't it?
>Why is that? I have a hard time believing that no one knew that there
>where other inboard makers out there. Correct Craft's aren't cheap so
>it wasn't price! Sure wasn't the old Teleflex gauges. Honestly, one of
>you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
>brand. These servo controlled gauges are also similar to those in the
>1998 Corvette. Check out the postings under the auto news group and
>Chevrolet web site. LOTS of unhappy 1998 Corvette owners. I would much
>rather have a gauge that works and is proven than a new one that belongs
>in a car not a boat.
>
Funny, there's nary a post on r.s.w. about currently unhappy
Kysor gauge owners.
>We all have our opinions, talk is cheap. I personally just bought a
>1999 Sport Nautique but not without first checking out EVERY body and
>taking two years to finally decide.
Good for you. An excellent family/boarding boat.
>I think what finally made my
>decision was the fact that Correct Craft has no gimmicks in their
>product.
Yeah, those unmodified hull bottoms are low gimmick. Ditto
for the zebra mussel livewell (aka "LCS").
> ... I am not saying that Correct Craft is really all that
>much better, I have had my new boat back to the dealer.
>
Ah... not really all that much better. But you bought one
anyway? A marketers poster boy.
>For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
>That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
>trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
You mean like the quality vinyl pin striping? Or the
quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
edges? How are things at Southwest Correct Craft today?
Tom ;=)
Greg York
I couldn't have answered this guy any better myself. It's people like this
that keep CC thinkning they can charge the amount of $$ for their product.
Maybe , if people starting refusing to pay the price , they (CC), might take
notice!
Where is spring??
Greg York
now...@fuse.net
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36ab1901....@news.supernews.com>...
Tom Ruta
>.... It's people like this
>that keep CC thinkning they can charge the amount of $$ for their product.
>Maybe , if people starting refusing to pay the price , they (CC), might take
>notice!
First of all I happen to believe that they make the finest
pure slalom boat. At least as far as wakes goes. They are
quite well built, too. Some say over built. I do know that
most places seem to be charging a premium for them. Is it
worth it? Obviously to many, many folks it is.
As for the Meloons taking notice, I wouldn't count on it.
They seem to have stuck to their guns and resisted the
econobarge trend we see in the Sportst*rs and others.
Whether that is arrogance, principles or a bad decision I'm
not sure: only time will tell.
But folks are starting to notice a lack of "walking the
talk" so that they buy a Malibu instead of an MC like Bob.
The same thing could happen to CC.
Tom
Greg York
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36b73c1a....@news.supernews.com>...
>"Greg York" <now...@fuse.net> wrote:
>>.... It's people like this
>>that keep CC thinkning they can charge the amount of $$ for their product.
>>Maybe , if people starting refusing to pay the price , they (CC), might
take
>>notice!
>
>First of all I happen to believe that they make the finest
>pure slalom boat. At least as far as wakes goes. They are
>quite well built, too. Some say over built. I do know that
>most places seem to be charging a premium for them. Is it
>worth it? Obviously to many, many folks it is.
>
>As for the Meloons taking notice, I wouldn't count on it.
>They seem to have stuck to their guns and resisted the
>econobarge trend we see in the Sportst*rs and others.
>Whether that is arrogance, principles or a bad decision I'm
>not sure: only time will tell.
>
What about the 176? Talk about econobarge! :)
What were they thinkin'
As for better built? It's all perseption..... What makes their boat any
better than the other big 3?...... Your caught up in their perseption or
deception game aren't you?
Place them side by side Tom.... I hate to disagree , but, CC is not a good
value at this time.... Maybe next year!
Greg York
NIBRAL1
>
CC is #1 (98 model year) in sales. NMMA #s and they us registered boats not
manufacturers # for units built.>
>Funny, there's nary a post on r.s.w. about currently unhappy
>Kysor gauge owners.
>
They are fairly new and just becoming standard in various boats. Did you know
they cost the manufacturers less than the gauges you prefer to pooh-pooh?
Time will indeed tell if they are good/bad or just need further marinization.
You have added an additional box of electronics into the system that now reads
from the speedo pickups and translates that reading to speedo info. Which means
we are going to mix water and electronics. Not normally a good combo. Also, I
view this as just as much a gimmick as pulling from a certain test, less bold,
but it is still a "look at me, I am different". Not better, not worse just
different. You will still have to deal with plugged pitots, kinked pick up
lines, etc.
Now if they do become really trendy, everyone can upgrade old or new to these
gauges for approx. $400. (try and replace your current gauge set for that?)
There is nothing wrong with Airguide, (not Teleflex, attention to detail,
Tom, because one gauge is something doesn't mean the one next to it is the
same). Work fine, calibrate easily, last a long time.
>quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
>edges?
Plastic bow light? Come on, whether its pot metal chromed or plastic does it
really make that big a difference? The plastic is less expensive and less
susceptible to pitting than the metal units, so those FL guys don't want 'em
corroding on the shelf or your boat. That's wrong? Besides it's not as if
Perko doesn't make 'em both.
Carpet. You get this one. Fact is, most boats could do better on their carpet
edges, regardless of name or cost. Again, most are using Syntec but what
grade? 26oz, 28oz,33oz, etc. Not only is the weight important,but you should
also investigate the backing, thread, and weave. There are different qualities
even within a brand name. You have bought new carpet at one time or another
for your home, haven't you? There are differences even within brands and lines
of carpet. Bigger isn't better and most expensive is not always better.
Not to be an incredible smart a__ here, but what exactly was it you were buying
- bow light? carpet? cooler? gauges? Courtesy lights? Nautique has a
circuit breaker on the panel plainly labelled Courtesy Lights? The only light
that they charge for is the extra one in the bow storage area. Trival to not
include it with the gunnel lights, admittedly, but to say there is none, that's
wrong.
Are you buying features or a boat? Boat. Then how does that boat meet the
application for which it was designed? How well does that application fit
you?
Let's not lose our focus here. You can nit-pick the best or you can prefer not
to see on the worse. Form - Fit - Function then integration into your
lifestyle. Which one meets most of the criteria because none will meet all.
Sorry guys. Now Tom, has more stuff to check out! This may take another two
years!
Sorry, Tom. You are making me and others nuts by not committing and buying a
boat, although I do enjoy you reports - better reports than the BBG. Keep
testing, you'll find the right one eventually.
>How are things at Southwest Correct Craft today?
>
Is Mr. Bennett a dealer or employee? Because he may or may not have a
relationship with CC beyond his purchase, automatically makes his statements
wrong?
Check them out first, then toast him.
In the immortal words of Mark Twain: Once you have the facts, you can twist
the truth anyway you want.
ttfn
nibral1
Mark Kovalcson
>
> What about the 176? Talk about econobarge! :)
> What were they thinkin'
Well, I have to agree that at least to me the 176 is a failure.
>
> As for better built? It's all perseption..... What makes their boat any better than the other big 3?...... Your caught up in their perseption or deception game aren't you?
I don't agree with this however. MC has obviously dropped the ball and
both CC and Malibu have been in a steady state of evolution for a number
of years. They each have strengths and I think that a persons priorities
would make all the difference.
>
> Place them side by side Tom.... I hate to disagree , but, CC is not a good value at this time.... Maybe next year!
Value is an interesting word. Both a Malibu and a CC could be a good
value at different prices depending on what you are looking for.
Greg York
NIBRAL1 wrote in message <19990107184223...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>>In terms of sales? I think not. It is a tier one craft?
>>
>
>CC is #1 (98 model year) in sales. NMMA #s and they us registered boats
not
>manufacturers # for units built.>
Is this numbers for a particular state? I can tell you that world wide CC
was #3 ( I have info that claims that a 3rd of their production went over
seas, which even lessens yourr statement)
>
>>Funny, there's nary a post on r.s.w. about currently unhappy
>>Kysor gauge owners.
>>
>
Think there are any?
>They are fairly new and just becoming standard in various boats. Did you
know
>they cost the manufacturers less than the gauges you prefer to pooh-pooh?
Just where do you get your info? Do you live under a rock?
>Time will indeed tell if they are good/bad or just need further
marinization.
>You have added an additional box of electronics into the system that now
reads
>from the speedo pickups and translates that reading to speedo info. Which
means
>we are going to mix water and electronics. Not normally a good combo.
I hope the navy doesn't hear about this?
Also, I
>view this as just as much a gimmick as pulling from a certain test, less
bold,
>but it is still a "look at me, I am different". Not better, not worse
just
>different. You will still have to deal with plugged pitots, kinked pick up
>lines, etc.
>Now if they do become really trendy, everyone can upgrade old or new to
these
>gauges for approx. $400. (try and replace your current gauge set for
that?)
I thought you said they were less expensive?
> There is nothing wrong with Airguide, (not Teleflex, attention to detail,
They were good 15 years ago!
>Tom, because one gauge is something doesn't mean the one next to it is the
>same). Work fine, calibrate easily, last a long time.
>
>>quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
>>edges?
>
>Plastic bow light? Come on, whether its pot metal chromed or plastic does
it
>really make that big a difference? The plastic is less expensive and less
>susceptible to pitting than the metal units, so those FL guys don't want
'em
>corroding on the shelf or your boat. That's wrong? Besides it's not as if
>Perko doesn't make 'em both.
So why does CC charge nore for this?
>Carpet. You get this one. Fact is, most boats could do better on their
carpet
Most have made the effort!
Tom, the good thing about this is that they just keep getting better!
>
>Sorry, Tom. You are making me and others nuts by not committing and buying
a
Tom, is this a sales guy you have been giving the run around to? :)
>boat, although I do enjoy you reports - better reports than the BBG. Keep
>testing, you'll find the right one eventually.
>
>>How are things at Southwest Correct Craft today?
>>
>
>Is Mr. Bennett a dealer or employee? Because he may or may not have a
>relationship with CC beyond his purchase, automatically makes his
statements
>wrong?
>Check them out first, then toast him.
>
>In the immortal words of Mark Twain: Once you have the facts, you can
twist
>the truth anyway you want.
>
>
I think I heard Walt Maloon cite that once! :)
P.S. All in fun!
>ttfn
>nibral1
Mark Lenox
Scott Bennett wrote:
>
> Sure wasn't the old Teleflex gauges. Honestly, one of
> you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
> brand.
My Teleflex voltmeter in my '97 SN lasted about 18 months (approx 200 hours
runtime) before self destructing. The replacement cost me about $25, and
was NOT covered under warranty. Any questions?
>
> For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
> That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
> trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
The converse is also true. Spend the big bucks for what you think is a
good product, then when it starts showing it's true colors, you get *very*
ticked off. Tell me what you think about your boat after you've put a few
hundred hours on it. I have personally put many thousands of hours on CC's
over the last 20+ years, but as it stands now, unless CC does something
completely remarkable, it'll be my last.
Mark Lenox
Ray Pulley
>
>Scott Bennett <sco...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
>>What is so hard to understand. Correct Craft is STILL the world's
>>number one choice.
>
>
>>For example, In Austin the number of new boat
>>registrations for just the third quarter of 1998 tells it all. More
>>than double the Malibu, MasterCraft, Tige', and Centurion registrations
>>combined.
>>
>
>Gee, that's representative of the whole inboard market
>isn't it?
>
>>Why is that? I have a hard time believing that no one knew that there
>>where other inboard makers out there. Correct Craft's aren't cheap so
>>you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
>>1998 Corvette. Check out the postings under the auto news group and
>>Chevrolet web site. LOTS of unhappy 1998 Corvette owners. I would much
>>rather have a gauge that works and is proven than a new one that belongs
>>in a car not a boat.
>>
>
>Kysor gauge owners.
>
>>1999 Sport Nautique but not without first checking out EVERY body and
>>taking two years to finally decide.
>
NO WAY. NO ONE TAKES LONGER THAN RUTA TO BUY A BOAT!
>Good for you. An excellent family/boarding boat.
>
>>I think what finally made my
>>decision was the fact that Correct Craft has no gimmicks in their
>>product.
>
>Yeah, those unmodified hull bottoms are low gimmick. Ditto
>for the zebra mussel livewell (aka "LCS").
>
>> ... I am not saying that Correct Craft is really all that
>>much better, I have had my new boat back to the dealer.
>>
>
>Ah... not really all that much better. But you bought one
>anyway? A marketers poster boy.
>
>>For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
>>That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
>>trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
>
>You mean like the quality vinyl pin striping? Or the
>quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
>edges? How are things at Southwest Correct Craft today?
>
>Tom ;=)
>
Tom Ruta
>>In terms of sales? I think not. It is a tier one craft?
>>
>
>CC is #1 (98 model year) in sales. NMMA #s and they us registered boats not
>manufacturers # for units built.>
>
Add up all the NMMA numbers and tell me what you get. I'm
_still_ waiting for a proper accounting of boats sold (not
that I'll ever se it - and CC sure as heck won't release
it!)
>>Funny, there's nary a post on r.s.w. about currently unhappy
>>Kysor gauge owners.
>>
>
>They are fairly new and just becoming standard in various boats. Did you know
>they cost the manufacturers less than the gauges you prefer to pooh-pooh?
Gee, better AND cheaper. What a concept.
>Time will indeed tell if they are good/bad or just need further marinization.
>You have added an additional box of electronics into the system that now reads
>from the speedo pickups and translates that reading to speedo info. Which means
>we are going to mix water and electronics. Not normally a good combo.
Can you say ECM? PerfectPass? Depth sounder...etc.
>... Work fine, calibrate easily, last a long time.
>
Before the days of speed control, did you ever drive a
tournament? A hint - why do you think they had two speedos?
One was always fogged.
>>quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
>>edges?
>
>Plastic bow light? Come on, whether its pot metal chromed or plastic does it
>really make that big a difference? The plastic is less expensive and less
>susceptible to pitting than the metal units, so those FL guys don't want 'em
>corroding on the shelf or your boat. That's wrong? Besides it's not as if
>Perko doesn't make 'em both.
That's a poor justification on a thirty thousand dollar
boat. If lower cost boats can have ones that last, why
can't CC?
...
...
> Are you buying features or a boat? Boat. Then how does that boat meet the
>application for which it was designed? How well does that application fit
>you?
>
It is both. That's why the question.
...
>Sorry guys. Now Tom, has more stuff to check out! This may take another two
>years!
>
No such luck - one is on the way. "Patience is a virtue"
(or was it "Curiosity killed the cat")
>Sorry, Tom. You are making me and others nuts by not committing and buying a
>boat, although I do enjoy you reports - better reports than the BBG. Keep
>testing, you'll find the right one eventually.
>
Glad you like the reviews. There's more on the way.
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>What about the 176? Talk about econobarge! :)
>What were they thinkin'
>
It isn't really in the barge class. It is a class all its
own (whatever that is). I've personally NEVER seen one of
these on the water ANYWHERE> Has anyone?
>As for better built?..
>Place them side by side Tom.... I hate to disagree , but, CC is not a good
>value at this time.... Maybe next year!
I never said better built - I said very well built. No
comparisons applied. As for value ($/lb/funtionality), you
might have a point there.
Tom
DerylRobin
>trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
you sound like you have spent a little too much time with you CC dealer.
DerylRobin
>value at different prices depending on what you are looking for.
>
good point.
According to the Society of American Value Engineers (SAVE) (yup, it's real),
Value = Worth/Cost. It's up to the user to determine worth. If cost exceeds
worth it's not good value.
If you're a pro waterskier and the best wake is worth alot to you, then it's
going to be worth a whole lot to get a wake that's only a little bit better.
Tim Howell
DerylRobin wrote:
perhaps not enough time in an exceptional boat.tim
krb...@ezl.com
Kevin Baugh
krb...@ezl.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Tom and Michelle Harvanek
Greg York wrote in message <773gm2$j5b$1...@remarQ.com>...
>What about the 176? Talk about econobarge! :)
>What were they thinkin'
But the 176 was not a new concept, the Ski Tique goes way back, I admit they
likely misread the market or priced it to close to other brands 'full size'
boats, perhaps?
Tom
Tom and Michelle Harvanek
Mark Lenox wrote in message <36955DFA...@cti-pet.com>...
>
>Scott Bennett wrote:
>
>>
>> Sure wasn't the old Teleflex gauges. Honestly, one of
>> you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
>> brand.
>My Teleflex voltmeter in my '97 SN lasted about 18 months (approx 200 hours
>runtime) before self destructing. The replacement cost me about $25, and
>was NOT covered under warranty. Any questions?
>> For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
>> That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
>> trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
>
>The converse is also true. Spend the big bucks for what you think is a
>good product, then when it starts showing it's true colors, you get *very*
>ticked off. Tell me what you think about your boat after you've put a few
>hundred hours on it. I have personally put many thousands of hours on
CC's
>over the last 20+ years, but as it stands now, unless CC does something
>completely remarkable, it'll be my last.
>
>Mark Lenox
Not sure where to interject, but excuse my ramblings..
If I bought a premium boat at a premium price, being told I'm getting the
best, I would expect premium hardware throughout.
I would prefer brands like VDO and Airguide staring back as I drove it, or
at least a choice of brands if one ordered their boat.
CC owners are crazed how they take care of their boats and they know that,
the dealer/factory should back up components chosen by the factory for
longer than that.
Tom
jstanton
wrote:
>
>
>DerylRobin wrote:
>
>> >That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
>> >trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
>>
>> you sound like you have spent a little too much time with you CC dealer.
>
>perhaps not enough time in an exceptional boat.tim
>
Nah, it just sounds like he is justifying his purchase still. It's a
process that really shapes what boat he will buy next more than
anything else.
If you want to look at state registrations to get a feel for sales,
I'd suggest looking at CA. It's probably the largest market for
tournament inboards of any state. If not, it's a close second.
Therefore, without it, the sampling size is probably too small to be
meaningful.
As I said before, it appears that a third of CC sales are in this
state. Without CA, CC may go under. Of course, my data is solely based
upon what CA CC dealers have told me they sold & speculation in r.s.w
on national NMMN numbers.
jstanton
wrote:
>What is so hard to understand.
What's so hard not to understand? We rag on everything here in r.s.w.
We are all members of Raggers Anonymous looking for a cure through
theraphy.
<standing up now>. Hi, my name is Jeff and yes, I'm a raggerholic.
Everybody else's turn...
Okay, the one question I have is who's the therapist here?
Greg Wait
numbers that the vast majority of r.s.w denizens haven't the time to
check, it seems like you've all forgotten why you started reading this
newsgroup in the first place... to get my opinion--my clear, insightful,
and often inspiring take on these things.
So, here it is:
If you want the perfect boat, buy a LowLee.
Why? Consider the following:
- 100% of boat buyers surveyed choose LowLee over a kick in the head
- carpet edges serged by Sergio Valente himself
- carpet available in 16 oz, 32 oz and new 40 oz "big gulp" grade
- they make the finest pure combo-skiing boat in the world
- solid titanium bow light (optional)
- once you own our boat, you can twist the facts to make it the best
- no voltmeter to crap out after 18 months
- Tom Ruta hasn't found a single flaw in our boats
According to the Society for Telling Users Perfectly Incorrect Data
(STUPID) (yup, I made it up), VALUE = WHAT WE TELL YOU/HOW SMART YOU
ARE. It's up to the us to tell you what it's worth. If cost exceeds
worth, buy it anyway! The less you know, the more you buy LowLee!
Greg (maybe we could argue about skis for a while) Wait
http://www.behindtheboat.com
you won't believe what's coming...
p.s. I'm guessing that WAY too many of you don't own drysuits.
See you at the Eskimo Escapades!
(http://www.behindtheboat.com/Eskimo99/ee99.htm)
Scott Bennett
Malibu Response, sorry.
Scott Bennett
with the gauge or mucked with the dash pod all the gauges carry a 3 year
warranty. You mentioned that after 18 months and 200+ hours your went bad.
Sounds to me like the warranty would have covered it.
> Scott Bennett wrote:
>
> >
> > Sure wasn't the old Teleflex gauges. Honestly, one of
> > you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
> > brand.
>
> My Teleflex voltmeter in my '97 SN lasted about 18 months (approx 200 hours
> runtime) before self destructing. The replacement cost me about $25, and
> was NOT covered under warranty. Any questions?
>
> >
> > For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
> > That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
> > trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
>
> The converse is also true. Spend the big bucks for what you think is a
> good product, then when it starts showing it's true colors, you get *very*
> ticked off. Tell me what you think about your boat after you've put a few
> hundred hours on it. I have personally put many thousands of hours on CC's
> over the last 20+ years, but as it stands now, unless CC does something
> completely remarkable, it'll be my last.
Absolutley, spend big bucks and you would expect something to never happen to
it. I think that if you don't take care of any boat regardless of maker its
true colors are going to show. I still have a '96 Malibu Response with 250 hrs,
a '88 CC Ski Nautique 2001 with 450 hrs and a 1973 CC Ski Nautique with 850
hrs. Each of them very well taken care of. Each has had its share of
problems. Not one of them though I consider to be better than the other one.
So I think I have enough time with inboards to tell you that each maker has a
superior product and has had plenty of time to show its colors.
>
>
> Mark Lenox
Scott Bennett
Greg York wrote:
> NIBRAL1 wrote in message <19990107184223...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
> >>In terms of sales? I think not. It is a tier one craft?
> >>
> >
> >CC is #1 (98 model year) in sales. NMMA #s and they us registered boats
> not
> >manufacturers # for units built.>
>
> Is this numbers for a particular state? I can tell you that world wide CC
> was #3 ( I have info that claims that a 3rd of their production went over
> seas, which even lessens yourr statement)
Yes, this represents the number of new boat registrations for just Travis
county. Travis county is located in central Texas.
>
> >
> >>Funny, there's nary a post on r.s.w. about currently unhappy
> >>Kysor gauge owners.
> >>
> >
> Think there are any?
I can only tell you that the Malibu Response I test drove had problems. The
speedo kept jumping from our current speed to being max'd out as well as the
tach showing anything but the "right" RPM.
My '96 Malibu is dead on (until the tubes clog) and never a glitch in the tach.
>
>
> >They are fairly new and just becoming standard in various boats. Did you
> know
> >they cost the manufacturers less than the gauges you prefer to pooh-pooh?
>
> Just where do you get your info? Do you live under a rock?
>
> >Time will indeed tell if they are good/bad or just need further
> marinization.
> >You have added an additional box of electronics into the system that now
> reads
> >from the speedo pickups and translates that reading to speedo info. Which
> means
> >we are going to mix water and electronics. Not normally a good combo.
>
> I hope the navy doesn't hear about this?
>
> Also, I
> >view this as just as much a gimmick as pulling from a certain test, less
> bold,
> >but it is still a "look at me, I am different". Not better, not worse
> just
> >different. You will still have to deal with plugged pitots, kinked pick up
> >lines, etc.
> >Now if they do become really trendy, everyone can upgrade old or new to
> these
> >gauges for approx. $400. (try and replace your current gauge set for
> that?)
>
> I thought you said they were less expensive?
>
> > There is nothing wrong with Airguide, (not Teleflex, attention to detail,
>
> They were good 15 years ago!
Then why do so many makers still use them along with others like VDO?
>
>
> >Tom, because one gauge is something doesn't mean the one next to it is the
> >same). Work fine, calibrate easily, last a long time.
> >
> >>quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
> >>edges?
> >
> >Plastic bow light? Come on, whether its pot metal chromed or plastic does
> it
> >really make that big a difference? The plastic is less expensive and less
> >susceptible to pitting than the metal units, so those FL guys don't want
> 'em
> >corroding on the shelf or your boat. That's wrong? Besides it's not as if
> >Perko doesn't make 'em both.
>
> So why does CC charge nore for this?
>
> >Carpet. You get this one. Fact is, most boats could do better on their
> carpet
>
> Most have made the effort!
>
> >edges, regardless of name or cost. Again, most are using Syntec but what
> >grade? 26oz, 28oz,33oz, etc. Not only is the weight important,but you
> should
> >also investigate the backing, thread, and weave. There are different
> qualities
> >even within a brand name. You have bought new carpet at one time or
> another
> >for your home, haven't you? There are differences even within brands and
> lines
> >of carpet. Bigger isn't better and most expensive is not always better.
> >
> >Not to be an incredible smart a__ here, but what exactly was it you were
> buying
> >- bow light? carpet? cooler? gauges? Courtesy lights? Nautique has a
> >circuit breaker on the panel plainly labelled Courtesy Lights? The only
> light
> >that they charge for is the extra one in the bow storage area. Trival to
> not
> >include it with the gunnel lights, admittedly, but to say there is none,
> that's
> >wrong.
> >
> > Are you buying features or a boat? Boat. Then how does that boat meet
> the
> >application for which it was designed? How well does that application fit
> >you?
> >
> >Let's not lose our focus here. You can nit-pick the best or you can prefer
> not
> >to see on the worse. Form - Fit - Function then integration into your
> >lifestyle. Which one meets most of the criteria because none will meet
> all.
> >
> >Sorry guys. Now Tom, has more stuff to check out! This may take another
> two
> >years!
>
> Tom, the good thing about this is that they just keep getting better!
>
> >
> >Sorry, Tom. You are making me and others nuts by not committing and buying
> a
>
> Tom, is this a sales guy you have been giving the run around to? :)
>
> >boat, although I do enjoy you reports - better reports than the BBG. Keep
> >testing, you'll find the right one eventually.
> >
> >>How are things at Southwest Correct Craft today?
I can not tell you!
>
> >>
> >
> >Is Mr. Bennett a dealer or employee? Because he may or may not have a
> >relationship with CC beyond his purchase, automatically makes his
> statements
> >wrong?
> >Check them out first, then toast him.
No I am just a person, like most of you, expressing my experiences.
life_...@hotmail.com
zo...@behindtheboat.com wrote:
> According to the Society for Telling Users Perfectly Incorrect Data
> (STUPID) (yup, I made it up), VALUE = WHAT WE TELL YOU/HOW SMART YOU
> ARE. It's up to the us to tell you what it's worth. If cost exceeds
> worth, buy it anyway! The less you know, the more you buy LowLee!
>
> Greg (maybe we could argue about skis for a while) Wait
> http://www.behindtheboat.com
> you won't believe what's coming...
>
> p.s. I'm guessing that WAY too many of you don't own drysuits.
Judging from all the boat-bashing, you may be on to something.
Here in sunny (?) California, a wetsuit is more than adequate.
- Life (still skiing in January) speed
Scott Bennett
Tom Ruta wrote:
> Scott Bennett <sco...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >What is so hard to understand. Correct Craft is STILL the world's
> >number one choice.
>
> In terms of sales? I think not. It is a tier one craft?
> Absolutely.
>
> >For example, In Austin the number of new boat
> >registrations for just the third quarter of 1998 tells it all. More
> >than double the Malibu, MasterCraft, Tige', and Centurion registrations
> >combined.
> >
>
> Gee, that's representative of the whole inboard market
> isn't it?
No not at all since I do not have ALL the info for ALL the inboards sold.
Just one more piece of info to help in making my buying descion.
>
>
> >Why is that? I have a hard time believing that no one knew that there
> >where other inboard makers out there. Correct Craft's aren't cheap so
> >it wasn't price! Sure wasn't the old Teleflex gauges. Honestly, one of
> >you post something about the new servo gauges over the old Teleflex
> >brand. These servo controlled gauges are also similar to those in the
> >1998 Corvette. Check out the postings under the auto news group and
> >Chevrolet web site. LOTS of unhappy 1998 Corvette owners. I would much
> >rather have a gauge that works and is proven than a new one that belongs
> >in a car not a boat.
> >
>
> Funny, there's nary a post on r.s.w. about currently unhappy
> Kysor gauge owners.
>
> >We all have our opinions, talk is cheap. I personally just bought a
> >1999 Sport Nautique but not without first checking out EVERY body and
> >taking two years to finally decide.
>
> Good for you. An excellent family/boarding boat.
>
> >I think what finally made my
> >decision was the fact that Correct Craft has no gimmicks in their
> >product.
>
> Yeah, those unmodified hull bottoms are low gimmick. Ditto
> for the zebra mussel livewell (aka "LCS").
I think you could have come up with a better gimmick example. Can you help
me understand why I would want to use a phatt sack instead of LCS. Maybe its
me but that sack has to go. As far as those modified hulls (aka TSC and TWC)
they DO make a difference. Try skiing behind the '96 Ski and then try a '97
Ski. Kneeboarding/Wakeboarding the same try an Air without TWC then the Pro
Air. While they are objective options what I ment by gimmicks is that Malibu
seems to be hiding something with that water box around the shaft (vibration
maybe, excessive hull born noise, etc), and CC uses ISO Damp CN or what ever
its called to help hide noises. I feel that makers try to add unnessary
gadets to make you think you are getting something good when really they just
snowed you with the real problems you over looked.
>
>
> > ... I am not saying that Correct Craft is really all that
> >much better, I have had my new boat back to the dealer.
> >
>
> Ah... not really all that much better. But you bought one
> anyway? A marketers poster boy.
>
> >For those of you in the market for a new inboard remember one thing.
> >That sale price will be long forgotten when your boat starts to give you
> >trouble because you sacrificed quality over price.
>
> You mean like the quality vinyl pin striping? Or the
> quality plastic bow light. Or the quality unserged carpet
> edges? How are things at Southwest Correct Craft today?
>
> Tom ;=)
Tom Ruta
...
>According to the Society of American Value Engineers (SAVE) (yup, it's real),
>Value = Worth/Cost. It's up to the user to determine worth. If cost exceeds
>worth it's not good value.
>
Judging by the way the engineers I know (save Mark K.!)
spend money I'd suggest that the two guys in SAVE are pretty
lonely!
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>Yes, this represents the number of new boat registrations for just Travis
>county. Travis county is located in central Texas.
>
Okay - what are the numbers?
...
>I can only tell you that the Malibu Response I test drove had problems. The
>speedo kept jumping from our current speed to being max'd out as well as the
>tach showing anything but the "right" RPM.
Clearly the dealer was snoozing not to have fixed this
before taking out a customer. And can you say "Five Year
Warranty?". I thought you could.
...
>Then why do so many makers still use them along with others like VDO?
>
VDOs are a heck of a good gauge. Never gave me a whit of
troubles on my Saab Turbo (everything else did, though...)
...
>No I am just a person, like most of you, expressing my experiences.
>
We like people here. Tasty. (as in chew them up and spit
them out, right gang???) <grin>
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>If you want the perfect boat, buy a LowLee.
I didn't know you still had your Moomba, Greg!
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>Not sure where to interject, but excuse my ramblings..
This is a good a place as any...
>If I bought a premium boat at a premium price, being told I'm getting the
>best, I would expect premium hardware throughout.
EXACTLY! Spot on chap! For a couple of hundred bucks tops,
CC could get rid of the trashy add-ons and put some quality
there. Hell, most CC buyers would probably pay that. As
it is they leave it to guys like Brendel to think about the
whole picture.
Tom
Scott Bennett
Mark Kovalcson wrote:
> Greg York wrote:
> >
> > What about the 176? Talk about econobarge! :)
> > What were they thinkin'
>
> Well, I have to agree that at least to me the 176 is a failure.
Well it just so happens that I owned a 176, bore in June 1996. Due to limited storage space, with a removable tongue and removable platform this fits nicely in a 20ft garage.
Other boats in this price range did not compare to me in quality. The Ski 176 has the very same interior components as the Ski. Whereas the MC SportStar skipped some of the
finer interior appointments, not to mention it would not fit into my garage. The reason I sold it, very rough ride, and very small interior unless you took out the rear seat.
Other than that for those with a limited budget, limited space and like to ski more than cruise it wasn't that bad. Oh, one more thing, I had the Ford 351 260 hp, very quick
and very strong since its power to weight ratio is high. I had it two years and never a problem.
>
> >
> > As for better built? It's all perseption..... What makes their boat any better than the other big 3?...... Your caught up in their perseption or deception game aren't you?
>
> I don't agree with this however. MC has obviously dropped the ball and
> both CC and Malibu have been in a steady state of evolution for a number
> of years. They each have strengths and I think that a persons priorities
> would make all the difference.
>
> >
> > Place them side by side Tom.... I hate to disagree , but, CC is not a good value at this time.... Maybe next year!
>
Mark Lenox
Scott Bennett wrote:
> Sorry to hear about your voltmeter. I am pretty sure that unless you tampered
> with the gauge or mucked with the dash pod all the gauges carry a 3 year
> warranty. You mentioned that after 18 months and 200+ hours your went bad.
> Sounds to me like the warranty would have covered it.
Not for '97. It was one year.
Mark Lenox
Scott Bennett
Greg York wrote:
> Tom Ruta wrote in message <36b73c1a....@news.supernews.com>...
> >"Greg York" <now...@fuse.net> wrote:
> >>.... It's people like this
> >>that keep CC thinkning they can charge the amount of $$ for their product.
> >>Maybe , if people starting refusing to pay the price , they (CC), might
> take
> >>notice!
> >
> >First of all I happen to believe that they make the finest
> >pure slalom boat. At least as far as wakes goes. They are
> >quite well built, too. Some say over built. I do know that
> >most places seem to be charging a premium for them. Is it
> >worth it? Obviously to many, many folks it is.
> >
> >As for the Meloons taking notice, I wouldn't count on it.
> >They seem to have stuck to their guns and resisted the
> >econobarge trend we see in the Sportst*rs and others.
> >Whether that is arrogance, principles or a bad decision I'm
> >not sure: only time will tell.
> >
>
> What about the 176? Talk about econobarge! :)
> What were they thinkin'
Not every one has all that it takes to support a "full size" ski boat. Like the
added expense of storing a 21 ft plus boat (My Ski 176 fit perfect in my 21ft
garage), or a tow vehicle with adequate towing capacity (at the time I had a
Jeep Wrangler rated to tow only 2000 lbs). As far as your colorful name
"econobarge" I think that CC wanted to appeal to those wanting to ski and not
cruise and have a limited budget. There is nothing "econo" about it. Almost
every aspect of the Ski 176 can be compared to the Ski. I will strongly agree,
one major difference is the length.
>
>
> As for better built? It's all perseption..... What makes their boat any
> better than the other big 3?...... Your caught up in their perseption or
> deception game aren't you?
>
> Place them side by side Tom.... I hate to disagree , but, CC is not a good
> value at this time.... Maybe next year!
>
> Greg York
>
> now...@fuse.net
>
> >But folks are starting to notice a lack of "walking the
> >talk" so that they buy a Malibu instead of an MC like Bob.
> >The same thing could happen to CC.
> >
> >Tom
Tom Ruta
...<You said...>
>> >What is so hard to understand. Correct Craft is STILL the world's
>> >number one choice.
>>
...<I replied WRT the "world">
>> In terms of sales? I think not. It is a tier one craft?
>> Absolutely.
>>
...<Then you hauled out a one small example in a smallish
market as "proof"...>
>> >For example, In Austin the number of new boat
>> >registrations for just the third quarter of 1998 tells it all. More
>> >than double the Malibu, MasterCraft, Tige', and Centurion registrations
>> >combined.
>> >
>>
>> Gee, that's representative of the whole inboard market
>> isn't it?
>
>No not at all since I do not have ALL the info for ALL the inboards sold.
>Just one more piece of info to help in making my buying descion.
>
Now... you were saying?
I have no problem if you say "CC is #1 in Austin". Buy
last time I looked not even Austin thinks it is the whole
(or even center ) of the world. That is what Houston
claims.
Tom
Tim Howell
In article <36962FFF...@haht.com>,
zo...@behindtheboat.com wrote:
> > you won't believe what's coming...
> >
> > p.s. I'm guessing that WAY too many of you don't own drysuits.
>
> Judging from all the boat-bashing, you may be on to something.
>
> Here in sunny (?) California, a wetsuit is more than adequate.
>
> - Life (still skiing in January) speed
>
>
hey Life,I skied in GA NewYrs Day in shorts and a vest. My Long Beach
office is always braggin about 75+ days but here in the South "ain't nothin
to it but to do it"
:) tim
Doug Meredith
all work right at the same time. Finally the dealer put all Gaffig's in and
they have been perfect. Maybe that is why Formula and many other offshore
boats have switched to them.
Doug
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36cc4aa8....@news.supernews.com>...
Ray Pulley
>
>We are all members of Raggers Anonymous looking for a cure through
>theraphy.
>
><standing up now>. Hi, my name is Jeff and yes, I'm a raggerholic.
>Everybody else's turn...
Uh, my name is Ray and for years I have hated the key location in Malibu boats
(tears here) and I just cannot stop worrying about it.......
(Chorus)
HI RAY
>
>Okay, the one question I have is who's the therapist here?
COL (chuckling out loud!)
You missed your own point, one can only help one's self. Therefore we are the
therapist!
What I want to know is who makes the coffee?<g>
Ray
Tom Ruta
>I had VDO in my Formula. We tried 3 new sets, and could never get them to
>all work right at the same time. Finally the dealer put all Gaffig's in and
>they have been perfect. Maybe that is why Formula and many other offshore
>boats have switched to them.
Hmmm... surprised to hear that. They were the marine
versions, right? I always thought they were pretty good.
BICBW
Tom
Ray Pulley
>> >number one choice.
>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>> >registrations for just the third quarter of 1998 tells it all. More
>> >than double the Malibu, MasterCraft, Tige', and Centurion registrations
>> >combined.
>> >
>>
>> Gee, that's representative of the whole inboard market
>> isn't it?
>
>No not at all since I do not have ALL the info for ALL the inboards sold.
>Just one more piece of info to help in making my buying descion.
>
>>
>>
The Malibu box seems to be a decent idea if one wants a more rigid mout for the
shaft than what the older Malibu's had (a bronze fitting mounted directly to the
hull bottom) but I have never figured out how a partially filled box of water
adds any significant damping. Any damping seems to be outweighed by the
potential for leakage, which has been reported on some boats (a worry I would
have for built-in water ballast systems as well, I simply do not like the idea
of water IN the boat, funny that way, I guess).
As for the damping material CC uses, that is not a gimmick. I dare say that any
number of things you own, starting with you car, would be nearly intolerable
without very specifically designed damping and cushioning systems. I hardly call
that hiding a flaw or problem. It is simply good engineering to use the material
available to produce the desired end product (a quiet boat). I think you would
be hard pressed to find a boat much quieter than the CC (Toyota?). I know my
Malibu is pretty loud at higher RPM's.
Ray
Tom Ruta
>... reported on some boats (a worry I would
>have for built-in water ballast systems as well, I simply do not like the idea
>of water IN the boat, funny that way, I guess).
>
A perfect reason to tip your hat to Malibu for the Wedge!
>.... I know my
>Malibu is pretty loud at higher RPM's.
Compare and contrast the 99 Sunsetter LX to the 99 Response.
BIG difference, especially in the back seat, Ray. The
locker attenuates the noise I think. Or you can order the
extra motor box insulation (in MB Sport, BTW) for even more
quiet.
Tom
Greg Janda
Not every one has all that it takes to support a "full size" ski boat. Like the
added expense of storing a 21 ft plus boat (My Ski 176 fit perfect in my 21ft
garage), or a tow vehicle with adequate towing capacity (at the time I had a
Jeep Wrangler rated to tow only 2000 lbs). As far as your colorful name
"econobarge" I think that CC wanted to appeal to those wanting to ski and not
cruise and have a limited budget. There is nothing "econo" about it. Almost
every aspect of the Ski 176 can be compared to the Ski. I will strongly agree,
one major difference is the length.
Why didn't you go with the SN? I have a 20 foot deep garage, with the platform
off and the detachable tongue removed, the rig fits in no problem. I even have
enough room next to it for my 535i.
-- Gregory A. Janda cadPROS PCB Design Experts, Inc. 222 Oak Meadow Drive Suite A Los Gatos, CA 95030 PH: 408/399-7490 FX: 408/399-0160 gr...@cadpros.com
Greg York
Ray Pulley wrote in message <775nmf$3...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
would
>have for built-in water ballast systems as well, I simply do not like the
idea
>of water IN the boat, funny that way, I guess).
>
Obviously you have never seen this box in action. I have seen the top plate
off and replaced with a clear piece. It fills with water and guess what...it
works! Furthermore, your CC is surrounded by water ( unless you just bought
it to sit around in your garage). The dampenong system is covered forthe
life of the boat! What more could you want?
>As for the damping material CC uses, that is not a gimmick. I dare say that
any
>number of things you own, starting with you car, would be nearly
intolerable
>without very specifically designed damping and cushioning systems. I hardly
call
>that hiding a flaw or problem. It is simply good engineering to use the
material
>available to produce the desired end product (a quiet boat). I think you
would
>be hard pressed to find a boat much quieter than the CC (Toyota?). I know
my
>Malibu is pretty loud at higher RPM's.
Can you explain to me why there is more vibration in a ski nautique than a
response?
I have one on my lot right now.....
I think the RPM's your talking about are from the motor box, not the
hydrofonic dampening system These are two seperate areas.... try adding
malibu's motor box insulation shroud.... it's an option. Around $150.
Greg
TJSSKIER
In article <773bfa$b16$1...@remarQ.com>, "Greg York" <now...@fuse.net> writes:
>
>I couldn't have answered this guy any better myself. It's people like this
>that keep CC thinkning they can charge the amount of $$ for their product.
>Maybe , if people starting refusing to pay the price , they (CC), might take
>notice!
>
Greg,
I quess that means your opinion is anybody that buys a BMW, Mercedes, etc
instead of a Caddy or Lincoln is foolish? In 12 years as a CC dealer I've
never had to
wrestle a customer down to get him/her to pay me more for a Nautique over a
Malibu, MC, etc. Price is only one aspect of anybodys purchase of a
nonessential item like a boat.
I've found that people choose to purchase a Nautique over other boats for
reasons small and large ie: (I can see through the window instead of over...
the drivers seat is more comfortable...it rides better in rough water....gear
reduction makes it easier to attain and hold speed than a 1:1, etc).
The reason many choose to spend more for a Nautique is the overall experience
of how the boat works! Just like driving a BMW for a couple days helps you to
appreciate the small and large differences between it and a Cadillac. Add to
that the back up of a company that is 75 years old and is family owned and
operated. (They have made mistakes and are not perfect, but don't tend to
repeat them like so many other companies that have "a new leader or direction
ever few years"!) Also as many on this group have talked about the
dealership....its stability, service, follow up, location and on going
relationship is very important with many of my customers. The combination of
these three items, manufacture, dealer, and performance of the product relate
to the value and what a consumer is willing to pay.
I respect a company like Malibu...they have come a long way over the last 5
years. But IMHO its still not a Nautique! (Your opinion I'm sure disagrees)
Customers tell me all the time the Malibu dealer (200 yards down the street)
says "they are just as good or even better for much less money". That actually
sends people to my door. Some people believe that and that's OK....but when
I'm buying something and I'm told I can get something just as good or better
for less, my antenna goes up!
We sell Cobalt stern drives and Nautique (Correct Craft) Inboards and yes they
are the most expensive in their respective class. There are lots of reasons for
it and I won't get into them here. I hope you are not naive and believe the
only reason they sell for more... is because the manufacture or dealer ask for
it! Your product is worth what you ask for it...so is mine.
We all have our opinions, beliefs or truths. As our screwed up president has
proved "truth is relative". Remember Greg, CC does not "think" they can charge
more...they"are charging more" and people are buying them....2,000 last year!
CC is expanding to try to meet the demand! Are all those 2,000 1998 Nautique
owners wrong? Did they get ripped off? Sezz who.....you! <g>
Tim Sherwin/tjss...@aol.com
California Correct Craft
Arapp4u
>extra motor box insulation (in MB Sport, BTW) for even more
>quiet.
My dealer told me that the addl insulation is not worth the $$. He stated that
it only dresses up the inside of the motor box. Does anyone have direct
experience with a Manibu??
Alan Neeper
Greg Wait wrote:
> With everybody tossing around opinions like they're stone tablets, and
> numbers that the vast majority of r.s.w denizens haven't the time to
> check, it seems like you've all forgotten why you started reading this
> newsgroup in the first place... to get my opinion--my clear, insightful,
> and often inspiring take on these things.
>
> So, here it is:
>
> If you want the perfect boat, buy a LowLee.
>
> Why? Consider the following:
>
> - 100% of boat buyers surveyed choose LowLee over a kick in the head
>
> - carpet edges serged by Sergio Valente himself
>
> - carpet available in 16 oz, 32 oz and new 40 oz "big gulp" grade
>
> - they make the finest pure combo-skiing boat in the world
>
> - solid titanium bow light (optional)
>
> - once you own our boat, you can twist the facts to make it the best
>
> - no voltmeter to crap out after 18 months
>
> - Tom Ruta hasn't found a single flaw in our boats
>
> According to the Society for Telling Users Perfectly Incorrect Data
> (STUPID) (yup, I made it up), VALUE = WHAT WE TELL YOU/HOW SMART YOU
> ARE. It's up to the us to tell you what it's worth. If cost exceeds
> worth, buy it anyway! The less you know, the more you buy LowLee!
>
> Greg (maybe we could argue about skis for a while) Wait
> http://www.behindtheboat.com
> you won't believe what's coming...
>
> p.s. I'm guessing that WAY too many of you don't own drysuits.
>
Scott Bennett
Tom Ruta wrote:
> Scott Bennett <sco...@ibm.net> wrote:
> ...
> >Yes, this represents the number of new boat registrations for just Travis
> >county. Travis county is located in central Texas.
> >
>
> Okay - what are the numbers?
>
> ...
> >I can only tell you that the Malibu Response I test drove had problems. The
> >speedo kept jumping from our current speed to being max'd out as well as the
> >tach showing anything but the "right" RPM.
>
> Clearly the dealer was snoozing not to have fixed this
> before taking out a customer. And can you say "Five Year
> Warranty?". I thought you could.
Yes, very well I might add. I guess they need a five year warranty don't they.
>
>
> ...
> >Then why do so many makers still use them along with others like VDO?
> >
>
> VDOs are a heck of a good gauge. Never gave me a whit of
> troubles on my Saab Turbo (everything else did, though...)
>
> ...
> >No I am just a person, like most of you, expressing my experiences.
> >
>
> We like people here. Tasty. (as in chew them up and spit
> them out, right gang???) <grin>
Buy that boat already would ya.
Scott
>
>
> Tom
Steve H
so busy trying to get jobs here in Austin? . . . Steve
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36d7528f....@news.supernews.com>...
Ray Pulley
>>The Malibu box seems to be a decent idea if one wants a more rigid mout for
>the
>>shaft than what the older Malibu's had (a bronze fitting mounted directly
>to the
>>hull bottom) but I have never figured out how a partially filled box of
>water
>>adds any significant damping. Any damping seems to be outweighed by the
>>potential for leakage, which has been reported on some boats (a worry I
>would
>>have for built-in water ballast systems as well, I simply do not like the
>idea
>>of water IN the boat, funny that way, I guess).
>>
>Ray,
>Obviously you have never seen this box in action. I have seen the top plate
>off and replaced with a clear piece. It fills with water and guess what...it
>works! Furthermore, your CC is surrounded by water ( unless you just bought
>it to sit around in your garage). The dampenong system is covered forthe
>life of the boat! What more could you want?
Uh, here's my take on "the box"; There is no way that I can imagine that you can
completely fill a sealed box from the lake side that has no vent in the top. If
it fills completely, maybe it has a leak into the bilge? (which has been known
to happen, and yes I think Malibu is VERY GOOD about service and support, they
go the extra mile, let's be clear on that, and I am sure have promptly fixed any
that leaked ). In addition, looking in the top of one with a clear cover tells
you exactly what about vibration? Was it instrumented in some way to indicate
stress and vibration levels, and even if so, to what other instrumented unit was
it compared? Lastly, if there is any benefit, maybe it is in the boxed structure
which will indeed stiffen the surrounding area and provide better support for
the shaft log than the previous design, which may contribute to less vibration.
This could easily be done without the water, however.
>
>>As for the damping material CC uses, that is not a gimmick. I dare say that
>any
>>number of things you own, starting with you car, would be nearly
>intolerable
>>without very specifically designed damping and cushioning systems. I hardly
>call
>>that hiding a flaw or problem. It is simply good engineering to use the
>material
>>available to produce the desired end product (a quiet boat). I think you
>would
>>be hard pressed to find a boat much quieter than the CC (Toyota?). I know
>my
>>Malibu is pretty loud at higher RPM's.
Hey Greg, the noise I am referring to is the roar of the mighty engine and
exhaust system, and every CC I have ever heard is much quieter. Now I am not
sure I would want my muffler with water running through it in the floor instead
of the bilge (CC is in the floor), and a single exhaust seems to me to be
somewhat less efficient than a dual exhaust system, but it is quieter. Even WSM
cannot possibly get this one wrong, DbA is DbA as long as the measuring location
and distance is pretty close to equal.
>
>Can you explain to me why there is more vibration in a ski nautique than a
>response?
I do not know this to be the case, but I would be willing to take your word for
it. A few thoughts come to mind; isn't the CC a 351 Ford block? I own a GM based
motor, but I must confess to being a Ford guy in general. That being said, I
would have to categorize the 351 as a rougher motor than the GM 350, especially
at idle. Not knocking it, just an observation. The tranny's are different as
well, which might contribute. Motor mounts are definitely different, and while
many seem to doubt the Malibu Fibecs because it is not lagged or screwed into
metal, it seems to me to be exactly as it was designed by the America's Cup
designer (I forget his name). ie. it spreads the load over more points and at
the very least will have different harmonics and vibration charachteristics than
those designs with metal involved. Prop selection is another area that
contributes significantly, and I know they are using different props. Lastly,
the CC spins the opposite direction, and while this may seem equal, I can
imagine that it creates differences in noise and vibration in the drive train
especially since the engine is spinning one way and the shaft another.
That's all of the possible reasons I can conjur up right now. Should be enough
for you to chew on, eh?
>
>I have one on my lot right now.....
>I think the RPM's your talking about are from the motor box, not the
>hydrofonic dampening system These are two seperate areas.... try adding
>malibu's motor box insulation shroud.... it's an option. Around $150.
>
>Greg
>>
>
>>Ray
>>
<SNIP!>
Tom Ruta
...
>Obviously you have never seen this box in action. I have seen the top plate
>off and replaced with a clear piece. It fills with water and guess what...it
>works!
Please explain something to me. How exactly does the box
fill? It is sealed on the top, right? Try this little
experiment - take a water glass and invert it into a gold
fish bowl (taking care not to harm the fish!). What
happens? The glass DOES NOT FILL. So how does the H-box
fill? Perhaps there's a hydrodynamcist who can explain that
to little old me. One possibility is that the spinning
shaft draws water and cavitated air into the chamber and
then water displaces the air as the boat goes along. I
don't know.
And just to toss a little data at it (such as the data
are...) Noise levels (dB) from BBG:
Sunsetter LXi - 89,92, 101
Wakesetter LX - 89, 93, 102
Response LX - 90, 91, 102
So which one doesn't have the H-box to reduce noise? Give
up? It doesn't matter (at least statistically speaking).
Thus I'm having a hard time understanding how exactly the
noise attenuation process of this box works. Help me out
here.
>Furthermore, your CC is surrounded by water ( unless you just bought
>it to sit around in your garage). The dampenong system is covered forthe
>life of the boat! What more could you want?
>
Look - until someone can definitively prove it to me it
works it is just one other thing to worry about (not that it
necessarily keeps me awake at night - I gots my own
demons<g>). I'd rather that Malibu put a proper support and
use the money saved to give free motor box insulation (which
has way better results).
Tom
Tom Ruta
Banjos at twenty paces? Thanks for kicking in your
opinions.
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>My dealer told me that the addl insulation is not worth the $$. He stated that
>it only dresses up the inside of the motor box.
Sounds like your dealer was covering for the fact that they
didn't even know about it. It is hard to imagine sound
insulation that doesn't attenuate noise. Line a motor box
or engine box for that matter with fluffy foam and you kill
noise - simple, isn't it? As to the amount... only a meter
will tell. But if you want a quieter interior, insulate the
motor box (like Toyota and MB Sport).
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>> Clearly the dealer was snoozing not to have fixed this
>> before taking out a customer. And can you say "Five Year
>> Warranty?". I thought you could.
>
>Yes, very well I might add. I guess they need a five year warranty don't they.
>
So now you claim there's never a dead-on-delivery gauge in a
CC?
Tom
Mark Kovalcson
>
> deryl...@aol.com (DerylRobin) wrote:
>
> ...
> >According to the Society of American Value Engineers (SAVE) (yup, it's real),Value = Worth/Cost. It's up to the user to determine worth. If cost exceedsworth it's not good value.
> >
>
> Judging by the way the engineers I know (save Mark K.!)
> spend money I'd suggest that the two guys in SAVE are pretty
> lonely!
So are you suggesting some how that I am frugal ?
Mark Kovalcson
>
> Interesting thread :-)
Does it make you rethink some of the bias that you felt was evident or
does it reinforce that feeling ?
I wish it would slow down a little, but it is interesting.
Dopplerdog
>insulation that doesn't attenuate noise.
> Line a motor box
>or engine box for that matter with fluffy foam and you kill
>noise - simple, isn't it?
Not really
>As to the amount... only a meter
>will tell.
Definately true
> But if you want a quieter interior, insulate the
>motor box (like Toyota and MB Sport).
Only a maybe here
It sounds simple, but.... Keep in mind that 3 dB is a barely noticeable
reduction in noise. 6-10 dB is worth talking about. A quick scan of the BBG
puts most of the boats 87-91 dB. Hardly worth talking about. A couple of
i/os were at 80 dB (noticeably quiter) and a couple of boats were up at 100 dB
(pretty loud).
Maybe I give the boat builders too much credit but if they could get 6 dB less
noise from adding foam I think they would. The problem probably is that the
noise path through the motor box is only one of many noise paths. And if the
noise is low frequency a couple of inches of foam will have a negligable
effect.
I would guess that sealing of the engine box AND the paths through the bilge
under the floor would be more effective than the foam. This however is a bad
thing when it comes to venting fumes in the engine box and providing air for
the 350 (454?).
If you look at the numbers you'll see it's always about 10 dB louder off the
transom. Presumably all the noise back here is from the exhaust. Quieter
exhausts help this but foam in the engine box isn't going to stop THIS noise
from radiating back into the boat.
An analogy would be that if you had a 1 inch hole and a 12 inch hole in your
boat patching the one inch hole would have very little effect on how fast your
boat filled up with water. I'm figuring the sound through the motor box walls
is like the 1 inch hole. The fresh air vents and the exhaust are probably much
bigger holes.
What the foam in the engine box probably does do is reduce some of the more
irritating high frequency noises from belts, transmision, etc. (In the "high
tech" Toyota engine this may be significant.)
The dealer may be right. But it's not up to the dealer to decide what is and
isn't "worth the $$"
Paul
(I know very little about the specifics of boat noise but know a bit about
acoustics and canceling aircraft noise. I suspect it applies.)
Doug Meredith
calling them Voodoo (pissed of the dealer, but it got me $500 worth of
Gaffrig's that worked). Maybe I just got a bad batch, but it is an allfull
big coincidence that Formula switched all their offshore boats from VDO to
Gaffrig.
Doug
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36e96d3d....@news.supernews.com>...
Doug Meredith
people in Olando were great to me, the dealer has been great, the CC rep has
been great. After I met and talked to them all, when it came time to buy a
new boat, there was no option, just CC. Unlike Tom who is looking for the
"perfect boat" <vbg>, I just like to ski, and wakeboard. I would probably
not notice the difference between the other inboards and the CC. Some might
say to buy an I/O, but I've been that route, and I don't want the
compromise. So I went where I felt that I was getting the BEST customer
service, a good fair price that the dealer could make money on and that I
wasn't paying more than an other dealer (yes I did make some phone
calls),the dealer that has been in business for a long time, and a Company
that has been in business for a long time, and that didn't treat me like a
number. Geez, the sales guys in Orlando spent untold hours with me on the
phone answering my questions about the used 81 CC I bought, and CC didn't
have a dime of my money. They spent even more time answering questions
about the 99 air.
Maybe the others would have done the same, but CC did it first, so they get
my money.
Doug
TJSSKIER wrote in message <19990108181849...@ngol05.aol.com>...
Tom Ruta
...
>If you look at the numbers you'll see it's always about 10 dB louder off the
>transom. Presumably all the noise back here is from the exhaust. Quieter
>exhausts help this but foam in the engine box isn't going to stop THIS noise
>from radiating back into the boat.
>
Only problem with the better mufflers is that they eat a
mile or two (Mph) along with 10 hp or so. Not worth it.
Tom
Tom Ruta
>krb...@ezl.com wrote:
>>
>> Interesting thread :-)
...
>I wish it would slow down a little, but it is interesting.
Like the T-shirt says: "If you can ski with the big dogs...
stay on the dock!" Want a saucer of warm milk???
Tom (all in jest, honestly!)
Tom Ruta
>... Unlike Tom who is looking for the
>"perfect boat" <vbg>,
For the record, there is no "perfect boat". I can tell you
which parts of various crafts I'd like to morph into one,
though. What will be perfect for me is what suits my ideals,
family, skiing and wallet. YMMV
> I just like to ski, and wakeboard. I would probably
>not notice the difference between the other inboards and the CC. Some might
>say to buy an I/O, but I've been that route, and I don't want the
>compromise. So I went where I felt that I was getting the BEST customer
>service, a good fair price that the dealer could make money on and that I
>wasn't paying more than an other dealer (yes I did make some phone
>calls),the dealer that has been in business for a long time, and a Company
>that has been in business for a long time, and that didn't treat me like a
>number.
You know, that isn't unique to CC dealers.
Tom
NIBRAL1
>Tim Sherwin/tjss...@aol.com
>California Correct Craft
>
>
Wow, I'm impressed. With the CC dealers response. Not afraid to admit he's a
CC dealer and makes no excuses and good points about his product, and without
hammering the competition in the process. I'll bet he treats his customers the
same way - - With respect.
How come the Malibu dealer couldn't do the same?
Probably, just one of the reasons, why CC sold over 2000 boats last year, and
is expanding their plant this year.
See, dealer(s) can make nice.
Here Greg try a few of these next time:
Malibu has already expanded. They have two plants.
One in CA and one in TN. The better to serve the needs of the public.
They are one of the fastest growing companies, in percentage increase, of
boats sold year to year, for the past 5 years, of the inboard makers.
For '99 they are going to incorporate a 'shoebox' fit - - deck to hull - -
throughout the line instead of just the Sportster as was the case last year.
Malibu is strengthening their product for years of solid performance.
Malibu copied the Ski Nautique Open Bow design, because it was a good design
and the step over added strength and rigidity to our hull which reduced
vibration and provided a better ride. (of course you will probably leave out
that part about CC doing it first)
See Greg, its easy. And I'm only a prop shop owner.
Still think Tim could take ya, even on his worst day!
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>
>Tom
>
I think the FAA took it away from him after the caught him gliding it around
the lake, with that parabimini he installed.
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>Where is the LowLee dealer , I would like to have friends in LowLee places
>
>
Better there than in crawl spaces. Canibals.<g>
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>_still_ waiting for a proper accounting of boats sold (not
>that I'll ever se it - and CC sure as heck won't release
>
You're right, and it is not just CC, manufacturers, will however let slip #
of boats produced, they like to brag, keeping in mind that they are not all
sold, and they are bragging. Some manufacturers are public, look at their
bottom line, (educated) guess at dealer cost and divide bottom line, again this
is units to dealers not sold. Big difference. NMMA will give you totals by
category. Tournament inboards. Now I suppose because Bayliner produces the
ski challenged and Cobalt has an inboard we would have to count all their I/O -
OB units sold and include them in the inboard sales, also? Not.
See you can skew the numbers all sorts of ways.
So, in 97 there were 6100 t. inboards registered. (the #s are all in for 97)
CC has 38% of the market - get your calculators out thats how many boats?
They need improvement cause in MC's heyday they had 40%.
CC enjoyed an increase in sales for 98 (almost 10%). MC did what - KBaugh -
23mil less 9.5 for the sale of scuba doo and o'brien divided by a realisitic
average boat cost to dealer and that's about what.
Now there are roughly 20 other companies making inboards and if it takes
roughly 100 boats to keep the doors open that doesn't leave much.
Oh, Supra/Moomba - roughly 1000 boats 80% Moomba 20 % Supra.
Now, Mr. York should be proud. Malibu is moving up the charts - fast. But Mr.
York is apparently jealous of CC's ability to sell worldwide.
Well, when you are good, you're in demand - everywhere.
Even if you adjust their (CC) sales down by a third, they still sold nearly
as many as Malibu. But I believe this is going to be their (Malibu) year.
CC sales are going to continue up and MC down so who is Malibu hurting?
Rremember this and MC learned this the hard way also -- selling the most does
not make you the best. While they were busy counting units sold those sneaky
folks down in FL went and developed something great - TSC. Cannot lose sight
of the goal. Is that Best or Most. I'll take best (actually I look for the
guy trying to be better than. He's not looking back but ahead). And right now
it is CC.
CC is just giddy with excitement over their really beautiful TSC and TWC
hulls. And should be. You call them chicken for not testing?! Hey when they
jump up and down there is a very distinct Clang Clang Clang going on - the rest
are looking to see if they have any left. (brass balls) I have skied the TSC
and it is great, and the Malibu is good. There is a difference. You already
knew that though, didn't you, Tom? But I also like the '88 MC 190 for skiing
too.
>Gee, better AND cheaper. What a concept.
Tom, I did not say better- just different.
A Kysor rep is a customer of mine and I get a set to try for $0. That is also
how I know how much the upgrade costs.
Any one that actually is qualified to drive these tractors in a tournament,
pre- speed control used the tach and a watch, not the speedo. And the senior
drivers can lock a speedo right on. It is also how you can get better skiing.
Find one of these people and make friends.
>Can you say ECM? PerfectPass? Depth sounder...etc.
Yep, ECM - they are close but regardless of engine they still have quirks and
hic-ups.
Perfect Pass/Accuski - work great - still fail but less often.
Depth finder - closed system - water does not enter the unit anywhere. As long
as there is not an air void in the laminate where the transducer is installed,
they work pretty good.
>Before the days of speed control, did you ever drive a
>tournament? A hint - why do you think they had two speedos?
>One was always fogged.
Nope, only ski. Not good enough to drive tournaments. Driving requires as
much practice as skiing. But when I do drive I use the tach/stopwatch, speedo
is strictly a reference.
I've had them both clear and both fogged - like I said time will tell on the
new(er) gauges.
>that's a poor justification on a thirty thousand dollar
>boat. If lower cost boats can have ones that last, why
>can't CC?
>
>
Let me get this right - lower cost gauges - cheaper (your words) are acceptible
yet a lower cost - cheaper - bow light is not. I would much rather have the
gauges work and carry a flashlight than the other way around.
This is all in fun <grin> so don't take anything too serious, Tom.
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>>the
>>>shaft than what the older Malibu's had (a bronze fitting mounted directly
>>to the
>>>hull bottom) but I have never figured out how a partially filled box of
>>water
>>>adds any significant damping. Any damping seems to be outweighed by the
>>>potential for leakage, which has been reported on some boats (a worry I
>>would
>>>have for built-in water ballast systems as well, I simply do not like the
>>idea
>>>of water IN the boat, funny that way, I guess).
>>>
>>Ray,
>>off and replaced with a clear piece. It fills with water and guess what...it
>>it to sit around in your garage). The dampenong system is covered forthe
>>life of the boat! What more could you want?
>
Ray, you seem to be pretty intelligent, isn't water an amplifier of noise?
Physics 101, Sonar litstening devices as an example. Wasn't the box engineered
to reduce noise from vibration? It may dampen vibration but noise will be
amplified. I think so anyway. To which, my question is (a) what is causing
the vibration/noise and (b) wouldn't it have been less expensive to eliminate
the causes of the vibration via alignment, balanced and true hardware, etc.
It is an interesting topic. Also, if it is infact open and drawing water in
and perhaps circulating it, wouldn't this be a source of additional drag and in
and of itself cause excess noise and vibration, if air is not pushed completely
out, to be generated from the water circulating thru it while under way.
There was another company at one time that had a counterweight bolted to the
strut (in the boat) that claimed it would reduce vibrations from an out of
balance prop at 3300 rpm. Same question Wouldn't it have been less expensive
to eliminate the out of alignment/balance condition or use quality parts? It
would occur to me that the engineering dollars spent could have been directed
in a more prudent manner.
I know you own one, but really this isn't a dig, I would like your thoughts
on this.
ttfn
nibral1
Mark Kovalcson
Since I don't care about barefooting, I would gladly lose a little Hp
for quieter. If I lost 20Hp on the upper end of a 320 Hp engine, so
what.
Dopplerdog
>>
>> Only problem with the better mufflers is that they eat a
>> mile or two (Mph) along with 10 hp or so. Not worth it.
>
Should I assume my 290 HP inboard is only 275 HP when connected to it's
relativly quiet muffler? Or are we talking 290 HP at the prop shaft as I
believe they do when describing outboard motors?
I was wondering why I could only go 48MPH. If I could only go 50 I could get
across the lake in 45 seconds, in case a storm kicks up! <grin>
Paul
Tom Ruta
...
>Ray, you seem to be pretty intelligent,
Yeah... he let's someone else buy beers <g>...
>isn't water an amplifier of noise?
Yeah and I've got 200 gallon stereo here to prove it.
AFAIK, there's no physical property of water that AMPLIFIES
sound. May conduct it, but I'm pretty certain that an
aquarium makes a lousy preamp.
...
>There was another company at one time that had a counterweight bolted to the
>strut (in the boat) that claimed it would reduce vibrations from an out of
>balance prop at 3300 rpm.
There is in fact a product like that out there - CANBALANCE.
Works like a darn.
Tom
p.s. Noise and vibration are everywhere and engineering it
out of existence is probably not cost effective.
Tom Ruta
...
>Probably, just one of the reasons, why CC sold over 2000 boats last year, and
>is expanding their plant this year.
>
If you believe that then there must be a lot of "nice"
Malibu dealers since they have expanded, too.
>Here Greg try a few of these next time:
>
>Malibu has already expanded. They have two plants.
> One in CA and one in TN. The better to serve the needs of the public.
THREE plants actually if you count Australia. Rumour has it
they are already expanding the CA plant.
> They are one of the fastest growing companies, in percentage increase, of
>boats sold year to year, for the past 5 years, of the inboard makers.
% increase is probably not the number. Alpina sales
apparently "doubled" last year from the prior year. So
what? And I'm guessing that they surprise you with sales
numbers for 99.
> For '99 they are going to incorporate a 'shoebox' fit - - deck to hull - -
>throughout the line instead of just the Sportster as was the case last year.
>Malibu is strengthening their product for years of solid performance.
> Malibu copied the Ski Nautique Open Bow design, because it was a good design
>and the step over added strength and rigidity to our hull which reduced
>vibration and provided a better ride. (of course you will probably leave out
>that part about CC doing it first)
I do seem to recall CC crowing about "a unique to the
industry" line that Bill Snook actually posted a correction
about. Obviously they copied someone else or they would
have a lock on the design. Personally, I like a step
through better anyway - no one except MC has it is a <21 ft
boat though (at least that I'd buy).
>
(I like your response - pun intended - though. You could be
a dealer, too!)
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>Now, Mr. York should be proud. Malibu is moving up the charts - fast. But Mr.
>York is apparently jealous of CC's ability to sell worldwide.
>
Obviously Mr. York needs to get out more. Malibu is the
number one inboard in Australia - from their THIRD plant.
Tom
Tom Ruta
>>Tom Ruta wrote:
>>>
>>> Only problem with the better mufflers is that they eat a
>>> mile or two (Mph) along with 10 hp or so. Not worth it.
>>
>
>Should I assume my 290 HP inboard is only 275 HP when connected to it's
>relativly quiet muffler? Or are we talking 290 HP at the prop shaft as I
>believe they do when describing outboard motors?
>
Assuming the NMMA testing protocol, you motor could have as
few as 261 hp (+/- 10% remember). Add a SilentRider and
lose ten off that and you are down to about 250. I'm sure
the motoheads here can tell you about free flow and back
pressure on Hp and all that.
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>Let me get this right - lower cost gauges - cheaper (your words) are acceptible
>yet a lower cost - cheaper - bow light is not. ...
The point was that I know the claim that Kysor gauges are
cheaper than what CC uses is bull. Again, I have a hard
time understanding how something that is billed a premium
product (and priced accordingly since no one has yet to
counter that argument) has such cheap touches. Kinda like
drinking a nice wine from paper cups. Make the effort Walt.
Tom
Tom Ruta
>...Is that Best or Most. I'll take best (actually I look for the
>guy trying to be better than. He's not looking back but ahead). And right now
>it is CC.
>
If the 99 MB Sport hull is as good as it is claimed, you may
be switching brands. They are better in construction than
CC. By a long shot.
> CC is just giddy with excitement over their really beautiful TSC and TWC
>hulls. And should be. You call them chicken for not testing?!
I didn't. "Pride goeth before a fall". I'm sure the
Meloons can quote the section of the Scriptures for that.
The books are filled with stories of folks not taking this
kind of thing seriously (Olsen and Digital on the PC, etc.)
Tom
MQualkinbu
>few as 261 hp (+/- 10% remember)
Tom,
I need to correct you on this and it's my fault your using this name
improperly. It's not NMMA for this variance. It's BIA. Again my mistake. (
sorry, throw me to the wolves<g)
Mark
Hammrski
>So now you claim there's never a dead-on-delivery gauge in a
>CC?
We had 30 times the claims on the VDO's as we do the Teleflex. The Teleflex
tach is a lot more stable and accurate, easy to read as finite as 50rpm.
Another one that works better is the fuel gauge, does not bounce around like
the VDO.
True, every manufacurer will have a gauge that does not work, but it's all in
the percentages. Which brand is going to fail the least and have a good solid
warranty program when/if it fails.
Jim
www.hammerski.com
Hammer's Ski & Marine, inc.
Petaluma-Rancho Cordova Ca.
Tom and Michelle Harvanek
There is a plethora of Centurions on our lake, many years and models, a high
proportion don't have mufflers, and the noise of one, any direction is
worth 4-5 mufflered inboards, we wish mufflers were more 'standard'
equipment through the 80's and 90's.
Very few of these boats run WOT for footing, most are tubers, very rec.
skiers or just ferry to the bar on the take, a high proportion would never
miss the power loss,
Besides, not may boats handle well at 45 mph from that era, the Nautique
being an exception, I'm sure there are some others, but the only unmufflered
Nautiques I've seen around these parts are 'Super Beast' hp454 models.
Tom
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36a05f26...@news.supernews.com>...
>doppl...@aol.com (Dopplerdog) wrote:
>
>>>Tom Ruta wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Only problem with the better mufflers is that they eat a
>>>> mile or two (Mph) along with 10 hp or so. Not worth it.
>>>
>>
>>Should I assume my 290 HP inboard is only 275 HP when connected to it's
>>relativly quiet muffler? Or are we talking 290 HP at the prop shaft as I
>>believe they do when describing outboard motors?
>>
>
>Assuming the NMMA testing protocol, you motor could have as
Dan_Susan
>
> nib...@aol.com (NIBRAL1) wrote:
>
> >...Is that Best or Most. I'll take best (actually I look for the
> >guy trying to be better than. He's not looking back but ahead). And right now
> >it is CC.
> >
>
> If the 99 MB Sport hull is as good as it is claimed, you may
> be switching brands. They are better in construction than
> CC. By a long shot.
MB compared to the same CC or any of the other Big 3. They are not the
same. I would put them in the same category as a Pontiac or Olds.
Not a Geo but certaintly not a Lexus either. Even though they sell
new for about the same look at the resale of a used MB compared to a
comparable used CC. They're miles apart.
MB is a good boat. However, it's not a Tier 1 boat though it sells for
a Tier 1 price.
-dan
Doug Meredith
only one.
Doug
Hammrski wrote in message <19990109094138...@ng27.aol.com>...
NIBRAL1
>few as 261 hp (+/- 10% remember). Add a SilentRider and
>lose ten off that and you are down to about 250. I'm sure
>the motoheads here can tell you about free flow and back
>pressure on Hp and all that.
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
If you read closely, most engine marinizers will rate the hp at the crank. I
have seen some brochures from PCM where they will tell you both i.e. APEX
320hp/ 300hp at the prop. I would think that they do this because they also
manufacture the transmission and know the parisitic loss through the gear
reduction + strut bearing. I do not recall seeing a MC brochure, and it would
have to be their brochure, not Indmar or PCMs, on the prop hp 1:1 vs 1.51(2):1.
Indmar, PCM, Mercruiser, etc. in most cases have little idea how their engine
will be finally integrated in an application, therefore most text will rate hp
at the crank not the prop. Clear it up a little?
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
I know you didn't, Tom. Others read too. And your quote is absolutely on
target. I do like their boats and I would hate to see them relax on their
laurels and get over taken again ala the '80s.
I have been a fan of the MB for sometime now. Have no judgement on the 99
claims, I haven't seen one, yet.
Mike does and has done a good job building the boats and the company.
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>
<g> Yeah, Tom you would know. Aren't you the pennywise pound foolish advocate?
>Yeah and I've got 200 gallon stereo here to prove it.
>AFAIK, there's no physical property of water that AMPLIFIES
>sound. May conduct it, but I'm pretty certain that an
>aquarium makes a lousy preamp.
>
>...
<g> I don't know about the preamp part, but have you ever put your ear to the
tank and listened? "Free Willy....Free Willy..." I heard your fish had become
your only friends through this whole boat purchase ordeal. <g>
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>(I like your response - pun intended - though. You could be
>a dealer, too!)
>
>Tom
>
Naa, prop shop owner, just like to stir the pot. I get the unique pleasure a
playing with and (downside) repairing a multi-tude of these applications.
Was watching another thread and you may be right. Have to give round two to
York, he managed to drag Tim to his level and get him to call him a jerk.
York must be using the ng to bounce his latest boat show rhetoric to see how it
plays. If he sells as well as he irritates he must be like the #1 Malibu
dealer in the country. <g>
ttfn
nibral1
NIBRAL1
>which parts of various crafts I'd like to morph into one,
>though. What will be perfect for me is what suits my ideals,
>family, skiing and wallet. YMMV
>
You are probably right about that 'perfect boat'. Wouldn't it be nice to see
someone use 100% bi/tri axial specrtra, full epoxy, in a vacuum bag
application. Hull, stringers, deck, etc. Downside would be price. It takes
16 hours for a true epoxy to cure vs the hours cure of the modifieds. Vacuum
molds are expensive. Light weight steel exo-skelton w/2" spacing to ensure
truness of the mold. Man, what a unit this could be, get CC to let them use
their hull, MC to do the interior, and Malibu to do the gel. Of course that
$30k ski boat would now be $100k, but what the heck , we could still find
something wrong with it <g>. It would however be one heck of a boat and
collaboration. Great lines, superior hp:weight ratio. Light, strong, quiet,
and pulls like a 'mother'. If dreams were pennies.
ttfn
nibral1
Mark Lenox
NIBRAL1 wrote:
> <g> I don't know about the preamp part, but have you ever put your ear to the
> tank and listened? "Free Willy....Free Willy..." I heard your fish had become
> your only friends through this whole boat purchase ordeal. <g>
Water is pretty much incompressable (especially in the realm we're talking about
for sound waves). This makes it a much more efficient conductor than say, air,
which is of course very compressable in this regime. Still, it is not an
amplifier, waves are attenuated over distance, albeit a long one.
Mark Lenox
Tom Ruta
>Finally, someone else who had problems with VDO gauges. I thought I was the
>only one.
Well, there you have it. I surely haven't had probs with
the auto ones - maybe the marine stuff just sucks. A thing
to remember...
Tom
Tom Ruta
...
>You are probably right about that 'perfect boat'. Wouldn't it be nice to see
>someone use 100% bi/tri axial specrtra, full epoxy, in a vacuum bag
>application. Hull, stringers, deck, etc.
That vacuum application is already used in of all places,
bicycle manufacture (Trek - OCLV). But I think it is
overkill for the hull. Might be nice for stringers. Add a
little kevlar to the mix?
>Downside would be price. It takes
>16 hours for a true epoxy to cure vs the hours cure of the modifieds. Vacuum
>molds are expensive. Light weight steel exo-skelton w/2" spacing to ensure
>truness of the mold. Man, what a unit this could be, get CC to let them use
>their hull, MC to do the interior,
You are kidding about MC interiors, right? Sorry - give
that to Brendel. Or better yet aftermarket Recaro!
>and Malibu to do the gel. Of course that
>$30k ski boat would now be $100k,
Given what it costs to build one now, if there was some
consolidation in the industry I bet it wouldn't add more
than a couple of grand (okay... maybe 5 Gs)
>but what the heck , we could still find
>something wrong with it <g>.
Of course we would!
Tom
Tom Ruta
>I need to correct you on this and it's my fault your using this name
>improperly. It's not NMMA for this variance. It's BIA. Again my mistake. (
>sorry, throw me to the wolves<g)
The actual standard is ISO3046/SAEJ1228. Actual power levels
may vary depending on OEM calibration and application.
I'm not sure who promulgated it. But I accept that it is
probably BIA.
Tom
NIBRAL1
>overkill for the hull. Might be nice for stringers. Add a
>little kevlar to the mix?
>
I don't think so. Strengthen and stiffenin the hull will actually reduce
vibration and noise. Also, spectra is actually stronger than kevlar and in an
application where some flex is expected, it does not have the nasty habit of
being able to cut itself, like kevlar. And in an epoxy bond it would be carbon
graphite, followed very closely if not equally - spectra, then kevlar.
>
>You are kidding about MC interiors, right? Sorry - give
>that to Brendel. Or better yet aftermarket Recaro!
>
No, really. Throw this years out as an aboration. MC are masters at making
small spaces look huge and getting every usable inch out of the design. That
was my intent, I did not in any mean to imply we use crap materials.
>Given what it costs to build one now, if there was some
>consolidation in the industry I bet it wouldn't add more
>than a couple of grand (okay... maybe 5 Gs)
>
Like you noted some high end bicycle guys use the vacuum molds. These are
small parts, I would like to see hull/stringers/deck in essence the whole
shootin match done in a vacuum mold. Just getting them into the same room
would probably cost $5k ... The boat itself would exceed $100K.
>>but what the heck , we could still find
>>something wrong with it <g>.
>Of course we would!
>
>Tom
>
>
We already did ... didn't we.
ttfn
nibral1
Tom Ruta
...
>.....Tom, I would really argue this point. Look at a 2-3 yr old
>MB compared to the same CC or any of the other Big 3. They are not the
>same.
How so? A friend has a three year old MB 210 and it is
sweet. Did you know that they use all the same stuff as CC?
And add custom Al milled (from billet) trim? Or that the
walk-through OBs have steel reinforcement? In my books that
makes them better constructed than a CC.
> I would put them in the same category as a Pontiac or Olds.
>Not a Geo but certaintly not a Lexus either. Even though they sell
>new for about the same look at the resale of a used MB compared to a
>comparable used CC. They're miles apart.
It is hard to understand the drop. Name recognition? If
Brendel could keep this going for 5 more years you'd see a
shift I think.
>MB is a good boat. However, it's not a Tier 1 boat though it sells for
>a Tier 1 price.
I agree - priced like a Correct Craft. But since it uses
all the same stuff plus a few more goodies, and is better in
the interior, that makes it Tier 1 in my mind.
Tom
P.S. What I'd really like to see is Malibu take over MB.
There are some great ideas there.
Tom Ruta
...
>Since I don't care about barefooting, I would gladly lose a little Hp
>for quieter. If I lost 20Hp on the upper end of a 320 Hp engine, so
>what.
Then order SilentRiders in your next boat. Optional on
Malibu and MB.
Tom
Tom Ruta
>... I heard your fish had become
>your only friends through this whole boat purchase ordeal. <g>
I'm gonna put fish finder and a trolling motor on the
inboard so I'll lose them too!
(I'm kidding of course!)
Tom
NIBRAL1
>Water is pretty much incompressable (especially in the realm we're talking
>about
>for sound waves). This makes it a much more efficient conductor than say,
>air,
>which is of course very compressable in this regime. Still, it is not an
>amplifier, waves are attenuated over distance, albeit a long one.
>
>
>
>Mark Lenox
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I understand your point on amplification and perhaps I should have said
conductor. You do not add volume to the sound per se but in water it will
multiplex with the other sounds around it , and conduct it to the nearest
receiver - boat hull, seawall, irate guppy, etc..
That said, if I know the frequency of those around me I can indeed cancel -
mute them if you will with an equal frequency180 degrees out of phase. That
would indeed quiet the water. This box in the Malibu can do this?
Again, to my other question, is using water to dampen noise supposed to be a
good idea?
ttfn
nibral1
Greg York
inboard ( whichever model fits their needs) we all win!
Greg York
now...@fuse.net
Tom Ruta wrote in message <3697f3b9...@news.supernews.com>...
>"Doug Meredith" <...---d...@blast.net> wrote:
>
>>... Unlike Tom who is looking for the
>>"perfect boat" <vbg>,
>
>For the record, there is no "perfect boat". I can tell you
>which parts of various crafts I'd like to morph into one,
>though. What will be perfect for me is what suits my ideals,
>family, skiing and wallet. YMMV
>
>> I just like to ski, and wakeboard. I would probably
>>not notice the difference between the other inboards and the CC. Some
might
>>say to buy an I/O, but I've been that route, and I don't want the
>>compromise. So I went where I felt that I was getting the BEST customer
>>service, a good fair price that the dealer could make money on and that I
>>wasn't paying more than an other dealer (yes I did make some phone
>>calls),the dealer that has been in business for a long time, and a Company
>>that has been in business for a long time, and that didn't treat me like a
>>number.
>
>You know, that isn't unique to CC dealers.
>
>Tom
Greg York
Tom Ruta wrote in message <36fb9a81....@news.supernews.com>...
>"Greg York" <now...@fuse.net> wrote:
>
>...
>>Obviously you have never seen this box in action. I have seen the top
plate
>>off and replaced with a clear piece. It fills with water and guess
what...it
>>works!
>
>Please explain something to me. How exactly does the box
>fill? It is sealed on the top, right? Try this little
>experiment - take a water glass and invert it into a gold
>fish bowl (taking care not to harm the fish!). What
>happens? The glass DOES NOT FILL. So how does the H-box
>fill? Perhaps there's a hydrodynamcist who can explain that
>to little old me. One possibility is that the spinning
>shaft draws water and cavitated air into the chamber and
>then water displaces the air as the boat goes along. I
>don't know.
Tom,
I had the same thoughts as you..... Apparently its the rotation of the
shaft. I am not a rocket scientist but I seen it with my own two eyes. Thats
all I know.
>
>And just to toss a little data at it (such as the data
>are...) Noise levels (dB) from BBG:
>
>Sunsetter LXi - 89,92, 101
>Wakesetter LX - 89, 93, 102
>Response LX - 90, 91, 102
>
>So which one doesn't have the H-box to reduce noise? Give
>up? It doesn't matter (at least statistically speaking).
>Thus I'm having a hard time understanding how exactly the
>noise attenuation process of this box works. Help me out
>here.
>
Tom,
Thr box is designed to reduce vibration. In reducing vibration you inturn
reduce noise.
>
>>Furthermore, your CC is surrounded by water ( unless you just bought
>>it to sit around in your garage). The dampenong system is covered forthe
>>life of the boat! What more could you want?
>>
>
>Look - until someone can definitively prove it to me it
>works it is just one other thing to worry about (not that it
>necessarily keeps me awake at night - I gots my own
>demons<g>). I'd rather that Malibu put a proper support and
>use the money saved to give free motor box insulation (which
>has way better results).
>
>Tom
>
Greg York
door. As I stated before... I sometimes respond to these posts in defense.
After I re-read them they do sound a little harsh. Hope that I didn't offend
you in any way!
What prop shop do you own?
Greg York
now...@fuse.net
NIBRAL1 wrote in message <19990109012411...@ng35.aol.com>...
>>"Greg York" <now...@fuse.net>
>
>>Tim Sherwin/tjss...@aol.com
>>California Correct Craft
>>
>>
>
>Wow, I'm impressed. With the CC dealers response. Not afraid to admit
he's a
>CC dealer and makes no excuses and good points about his product, and
without
>hammering the competition in the process. I'll bet he treats his customers
the
>same way - - With respect.
>
>How come the Malibu dealer couldn't do the same?
>
>Probably, just one of the reasons, why CC sold over 2000 boats last year,
and
>is expanding their plant this year.
>
>See, dealer(s) can make nice.
>
>Here Greg try a few of these next time:
>
>Malibu has already expanded. They have two plants.
> One in CA and one in TN. The better to serve the needs of the public.
> They are one of the fastest growing companies, in percentage increase, of
>boats sold year to year, for the past 5 years, of the inboard makers.
> For '99 they are going to incorporate a 'shoebox' fit - - deck to hull - -
>throughout the line instead of just the Sportster as was the case last
year.
>Malibu is strengthening their product for years of solid performance.
> Malibu copied the Ski Nautique Open Bow design, because it was a good
design
>and the step over added strength and rigidity to our hull which reduced
>vibration and provided a better ride. (of course you will probably leave
out
>that part about CC doing it first)
>
>See Greg, its easy. And I'm only a prop shop owner.
>
>Still think Tim could take ya, even on his worst day!
>
>ttfn
>nibral1
>
>
>
Greg York
NIBRAL1 wrote in message <19990109140353...@ng14.aol.com>...
show. It does good to vent the frustrations here so that they don't peek out
at the show.
Actually, I would love to be #1 in the country, but, I'll settle fot #1 in
Ohio, Kentucky,Indiana. Cincinnati is not an inboard haven if you know what
I mean!
Greg
>ttfn
>nibral1
Greg York
glad you did!
Greg
Arapp4u wrote in message <19990108184620...@ng08.aol.com>...
>>Or you can order the
>>extra motor box insulation (in MB Sport, BTW) for even more
>>quiet.
>
>My dealer told me that the addl insulation is not worth the $$. He stated
that
>it only dresses up the inside of the motor box. Does anyone have direct
>experience with a Manibu??
Greg York
NIBRAL1 wrote in message <19990109040338...@ng35.aol.com>...
>>Add up all the NMMA numbers and tell me what you get. I'm
>>_still_ waiting for a proper accounting of boats sold (not
>>that I'll ever se it - and CC sure as heck won't release
>>
>
>You're right, and it is not just CC, manufacturers, will however let slip
#
>of boats produced, they like to brag, keeping in mind that they are not all
>sold, and they are bragging. Some manufacturers are public, look at their
>bottom line, (educated) guess at dealer cost and divide bottom line, again
this
>is units to dealers not sold. Big difference. NMMA will give you totals
by
>category. Tournament inboards. Now I suppose because Bayliner produces
the
>ski challenged and Cobalt has an inboard we would have to count all their
I/O -
>OB units sold and include them in the inboard sales, also? Not.
>
>See you can skew the numbers all sorts of ways.
>
>So, in 97 there were 6100 t. inboards registered. (the #s are all in for
97)
>CC has 38% of the market - get your calculators out thats how many boats?
>They need improvement cause in MC's heyday they had 40%.
>
> CC enjoyed an increase in sales for 98 (almost 10%). MC did what -
KBaugh -
>23mil less 9.5 for the sale of scuba doo and o'brien divided by a
realisitic
>average boat cost to dealer and that's about what.
>
>Now there are roughly 20 other companies making inboards and if it takes
>roughly 100 boats to keep the doors open that doesn't leave much.
>
>Oh, Supra/Moomba - roughly 1000 boats 80% Moomba 20 % Supra.
>
>Now, Mr. York should be proud. Malibu is moving up the charts - fast. But
Mr.
>York is apparently jealous of CC's ability to sell worldwide.
>
> Well, when you are good, you're in demand - everywhere.
>
>Even if you adjust their (CC) sales down by a third, they still sold
nearly
>as many as Malibu. But I believe this is going to be their (Malibu) year.
>
> CC sales are going to continue up and MC down so who is Malibu hurting?
>Rremember this and MC learned this the hard way also -- selling the most
does
>not make you the best. While they were busy counting units sold those
sneaky
>folks down in FL went and developed something great - TSC. Cannot lose
sight
>of the goal. Is that Best or Most. I'll take best (actually I look for
the
>guy trying to be better than. He's not looking back but ahead). And right
now
>it is CC.
>
Just how many props do you do for CC a year! <grin>
Greg
> CC is just giddy with excitement over their really beautiful TSC and TWC
>hulls. And should be. You call them chicken for not testing?! Hey when
they
>jump up and down there is a very distinct Clang Clang Clang going on - the
rest
>are looking to see if they have any left. (brass balls) I have skied the
TSC
>and it is great, and the Malibu is good. There is a difference. You
already
>knew that though, didn't you, Tom? But I also like the '88 MC 190 for
skiing
>too.
>
>>Gee, better AND cheaper. What a concept.
>
>Tom, I did not say better- just different.
>
>A Kysor rep is a customer of mine and I get a set to try for $0. That is
also
>how I know how much the upgrade costs.
>
>Any one that actually is qualified to drive these tractors in a tournament,
>pre- speed control used the tach and a watch, not the speedo. And the
senior
>drivers can lock a speedo right on. It is also how you can get better
skiing.
>Find one of these people and make friends.
>
>
>>Can you say ECM? PerfectPass? Depth sounder...etc.
>
>Yep, ECM - they are close but regardless of engine they still have quirks
and
>hic-ups.
>Perfect Pass/Accuski - work great - still fail but less often.
>Depth finder - closed system - water does not enter the unit anywhere. As
long
>as there is not an air void in the laminate where the transducer is
installed,
>they work pretty good.
>
>>Before the days of speed control, did you ever drive a
>>tournament? A hint - why do you think they had two speedos?
>>One was always fogged.
>
>Nope, only ski. Not good enough to drive tournaments. Driving requires as
>much practice as skiing. But when I do drive I use the tach/stopwatch,
speedo
>is strictly a reference.
>I've had them both clear and both fogged - like I said time will tell on
the
>new(er) gauges.
>
>>that's a poor justification on a thirty thousand dollar
>>boat. If lower cost boats can have ones that last, why
>>can't CC?
>>
>>
>
>Let me get this right - lower cost gauges - cheaper (your words) are
acceptible
>yet a lower cost - cheaper - bow light is not. I would much rather have
the
>gauges work and carry a flashlight than the other way around.
>
> This is all in fun <grin> so don't take anything too serious, Tom.
>
>ttfn
>nibral1
DerylRobin
Nobody that owns a boat of any kind is frugal.
:-)
Greg York
Tom Ruta wrote in message <369bd685...@news.supernews.com>...
Tom.... could this be the start of another dirty rumor?<grin>
Greg