Kicking
Rainer Perske
> Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
> player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?
FIVB rules: Yes, without restrictions; but service excepted.
cu
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Rainer Perske
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dak...@webtv.net
Todd Haverkos
> Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
> player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?
Yes, FIVB, USAV and collegiate rules have allowed it for several years
now regardless of intent. I *think* high school rules may still be
different, but I'm not sure.
USA Volleyball rules:
14.4 Characteristics of the hit
14.4.1 The ball may touch any part of the body.
NAGWS rules (women's collegiate):
8.3 Contact of Ball with the Body
The ball may contat any part of the body.
Best Regards,
--
Todd Haverkos t...@vbref.org
http://www.vbref.org/
Gai Hung Lo
has the email of t...@vbref.org had the gall to spew the following:
> dak...@webtv.net writes:
>> Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
>> player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?
>
> Yes, FIVB, USAV and collegiate rules have allowed it for several years
> now regardless of intent. I *think* high school rules may still be
> different, but I'm not sure.
>
> USA Volleyball rules:
> 14.4 Characteristics of the hit
> 14.4.1 The ball may touch any part of the body.
>
> NAGWS rules (women's collegiate):
> 8.3 Contact of Ball with the Body
> The ball may contat any part of the body.
I believe NFHS still outlaws contacting the ball below the waist.
larry
Kicking the ball is one of the ugliest rule adoptions in the game. It is not
volleyball the same as playing a soccer ball with your hands is not soccer.
If a player is so bad they have to use their feet they need to improve their
physical skills. Playing with your feet is lazy volleball and for the
unskilled player.
Learn to play correctly and you will never have to use your feet.
<flames accepted>
"Todd Haverkos" <t...@vbref.org> wrote in message
news:lyn12a3...@k2.onsight.com...
Mark Eastom
rules set forth when the game was created over 100 years ago?
I have no problem with kick saves in the sport, especially on the occasional
basis when defensive players simply can't cover EVERY attack that sneaks
past an ill-formed block or placed well by a skilled attacker.
I would potentially change my mind if it was a standard means that players
used to make a significant number of saves.
Regardless, I don't find kicked balls NEARLY as ugly as some of the overhand
passes that are now fairly regularly ignored on a team's first contact
during a rally. Sometimes the first ball contacts seem to be held long
enough and ignored that I find myself wondering facetiously if the ball were
to be caught on a serve receive and walked over to the setter if it would be
called as a lift.
--------------
"larry" <lmcc...@flex.com> wrote in message
news:ttr046m...@corp.supernews.com...
y_p_w
>
> I take it in being a volleyball purist you still use the original mintonette
> rules set forth when the game was created over 100 years ago?
>
> I have no problem with kick saves in the sport, especially on the occasional
> basis when defensive players simply can't cover EVERY attack that sneaks
> past an ill-formed block or placed well by a skilled attacker.
>
> I would potentially change my mind if it was a standard means that players
> used to make a significant number of saves.
>
> Regardless, I don't find kicked balls NEARLY as ugly as some of the overhand
> passes that are now fairly regularly ignored on a team's first contact
> during a rally. Sometimes the first ball contacts seem to be held long
> enough and ignored that I find myself wondering facetiously if the ball were
> to be caught on a serve receive and walked over to the setter if it would be
> called as a lift.
I play in what's essentially a supervised open gym. The
instructor/coach
says that the ball may be played off the foot (i.e. bounced), but not
kicked (i.e. driven). I don't see anything in the standard rulesets
that
differentiates between the two, but she gets to make up her own set of
rules.
Yu-Ping Wang
Berkeley, California
pfish
I watched Steve Obradavich kick a ball from the "A" court at Sorrento
to PCH on a hot sunny day back in......forget the year......If you had
your tape measure with you that day, it probably would have come back
at over 60 yds. Pretty good kick in my opinion.
Pfish
JRS
kicking, is illegal. IL uses national federation rules.
Of course everyone gets a laugh seeing a successful kick return during USAV
matches but the coach doesn't appreciate them. I have seen it several times
in boys USAV tournaments but can't recall seeing it happen in girls matches.
JRS
"Gai Hung Lo" <nuwild...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:B802D934.F537%nuwild...@yahoo.com...
John McCabe
wrote:
>According to my IL high school VB ref clinic, below the waist and therefore,
>kicking, is illegal. IL uses national federation rules.
That's nice, but totally non-conformant with FIVB rules.
John McCabe
>I play in what's essentially a supervised open gym. The
>instructor/coach says that the ball may be played off the foot
>(i.e. bounced), but not kicked (i.e. driven). I don't see anything
>in the standard rulesets that differentiates between the two, but she
>gets to make up her own set of rules.
There is nothing in the FIVB rules to prevent the ball being kicked
but, as far as I can tell, it is often a guideline to referees that
kicking the ball is (or can be) dangerous and should not be
encouraged.
RMF
dak...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
> player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?
we've heard a lot here now about whether it's allowed or not in all the
big rulesets (and in some of the more, ahem, exotic ones :-)).
but are there also some ideas around as to the effectiveness of a kick?
(I'm not talking about a dig where you more or less get spiked on ur
foot and get away with a lucky save that way.) I'm maybe a little bit of
a purist myself, but if there were situations where it might be a better
way of playing a ball, why not excercise/teach it..?
.bob
--
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Saul Dobney
"RMF" <f...@bwi.bepr.ethz.ch> wrote in message
news:3BDE93C2...@bwi.bepr.ethz.ch...
> hi all
>
> dak...@webtv.net wrote:
> >
> > Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
> > player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?
>
> we've heard a lot here now about whether it's allowed or not in all the
> big rulesets (and in some of the more, ahem, exotic ones :-)).
>
> but are there also some ideas around as to the effectiveness of a kick?
> (I'm not talking about a dig where you more or less get spiked on ur
> foot and get away with a lucky save that way.) I'm maybe a little bit of
> a purist myself, but if there were situations where it might be a better
> way of playing a ball, why not excercise/teach it..?
Round here, you occasionally see some players use a kick, but it's normally
because they are standing too upright and can't get low fast enough. Better
body position and technique tends to remove the need to kick from their
game - they can reach everything they could kick.
The only other place I seen it to be effective is for a ball hitting a block
and then being picked up with a kick either by the hitter as they land, or
by the block as the block lands. In both situations it is because the player
can't get to the floor fast enough so a kick may be the only solution. But
this happens so rarely (say once in 10-12 sets) that you wouldn't bother
coaching it.
JRS
complains how far behind they are to the FIVB and USAV ruleset. Of course,
the purists may say it is a better set of rules than the current FIVB rules.
:-)
"John McCabe" <john....@emrad.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:3bde7553...@news.demon.co.uk...
www.Volleyball.ORG
but no biting (holding) or scratching (throwing)
;-)
Yes, High School rules are too slow to change.
I have been complaining about this for the 12 years
that I have been coaching HS/Club volleyball.
There should be ONE set of rules for the game -
for High School/Club/College/Olympics/Adult Rec.
(This must be the tenth time I posted this message...)
At least they finally got rid of blocking a serve
in High School.
There have been some interesting rules over the years.
One of the most troubling that I have come across -
for many years a five person screen was not only allowed
but was part of the offensive strategy when serving.
Imagine that...
Paul G. Wenthold
>
> Kicking is o.k.,
> but no biting (holding) or scratching (throwing)
> ;-)
>
> Yes, High School rules are too slow to change.
>
> I have been complaining about this for the 12 years
> that I have been coaching HS/Club volleyball.
> There should be ONE set of rules for the game -
> for High School/Club/College/Olympics/Adult Rec.
> (This must be the tenth time I posted this message...)
>
I guess I don't understand the problem. I don't know of
a single sport where there is "ONE set of rules..." for
all levels. Certainly does not hold for basball, basketball,
or football. There are minor differences in wrestling.
I don't know anything about Soccer to comment on it.
Why should volleyball be any different?
Pro basketball is very different from olympic basketball which
is very different from College basketball which is different from
high school basketball. Hasn't seemed to be a big problem for
basketball players.
paul
Rick Lindsley
Round here, you occasionally see some players use a kick, but it's
normally because they are standing too upright and can't get low
fast enough. Better body position and technique tends to remove the
need to kick from their game - they can reach everything they could
kick.
Exactly right. I don't mind if somebody (especially a converted soccer
player :) occasionally makes an outrageous save because their training
in another sport affords them skills I can only dream of acquiring
someday. On the other hand, I've seen kicks done far more commonly as a
substitute for diving, or worse, as a dispirited way of saying "I
couldn't get that" even as somebody else, much to their surprise, IS
diving, trying to reach it.
I've told the teams I've played on that if they want me to go all out
and dive for balls, then I'd like everybody to lead with their hands,
please, not their feet, because if I take a foot to the head because
somebody was too lazy to dive, the blow might just cause me to forget
who my friends are, and accidentally remove a leg.
Rick
John McCabe
<p...@purdue.edu> wrote:
>I don't know anything about Soccer to comment on it.
As far as I can remember, the only differences in football (soccer to
you lot) when I was at school were that:
1) The pitch was smaller
2) The playing time was shorter.
I think at primary school we played around 30-35 minutes each way
compare to the professional game's 45 minutes each way.
In England, the difference between FIVB rules and junior rules is
pretty much only the net height.
>Pro basketball is very different from olympic basketball which
>is very different from College basketball which is different from
>high school basketball. Hasn't seemed to be a big problem for
>basketball players.
So what are the differences for example?
It is nonsense to have fundamental rule differences between
school/junior/senior levels. What if you have junior players playing
for a senior team (as was the case in the national league team I used
to play for)?
John McCabe
wrote:
>Exactly right. I don't mind if somebody (especially a converted soccer
>player :) occasionally makes an outrageous save because their training
>in another sport affords them skills I can only dream of acquiring
>someday. On the other hand, I've seen kicks done far more commonly as a
>substitute for diving, or worse, as a dispirited way of saying "I
>couldn't get that" even as somebody else, much to their surprise, IS
>diving, trying to reach it.
This is a very good point that I wish I had made - if someone is also
attempting to get to the ball in some more usual way (i.e. diving),
then another attempting to kick the ball could be very dangerous.
>I've told the teams I've played on that if they want me to go all out
>and dive for balls, then I'd like everybody to lead with their hands,
>please, not their feet, because if I take a foot to the head because
>somebody was too lazy to dive, the blow might just cause me to forget
>who my friends are, and accidentally remove a leg.
Celtic (Scottish football team) used to have a goalkeeper called
Johnny Thomson. He was killed during a Celtic-Rangers match because of
a kick to the head. Admittedly in football it is likely the kick was
harder than you would see in volleyball, but at least it may have been
partially expected!
RMF
John McCabe wrote:
[..]
> It is nonsense to have fundamental rule differences between
> school/junior/senior levels. What if you have junior players playing
> for a senior team (as was the case in the national league team I used
> to play for)?
I agree. as soon as you have something like the NBA in volleyball over
there, with professional refs as well, you can do so as you like. the
refs there ain't working anywhere else and vice versa (unless the
pro-refs go on strike, keke... I can remember that most everyone was
glad when the college-folks could go back to their games again :-)).
plus: the differences don't seem to be that huge in basketball? starting
with this season, the NBA has even cut illegal defense rule (whether
this will lead to more team-oriented offense or simply more shooting
from outside remains to be seen .-)).
Mark Eastom
to dive for balls far too often because they're not ready to make an
effective play.
Diving to make a play on a ball is also an emergency save type maneuver just
as kicking the ball is, and certainly a dive is typically more controlled
and safe than kicking at the ball is, however, having to dive to make saves
is frequently a sign of being out of position (or such things as having an
ill-formed block in front of the defense).
I still don't personally see any real problem with a player occasionally
making a kick save.
If it becomes a regular occurrence, however, its time to start figuring out
why they're needing to do so and work on either correcting what they're
doing that causes the need for it, or correcting what the rest of the team
is doing around them to cause the need for it.
I think, however, this is also true if that same player were having to make
diving plays on balls on a regular basis.
On hitter coverage its like you say, a player being in an upright stance
isn't going to consistently be able to make an effective play on the ball
their hitter just slammed into the block without a dive (or some other sort
of emergengy save), where if they had simply been in a better / lower
position they quite possibly could have made the dig simply because they're
ready for it.
----------------------
"Saul Dobney" <saul....@dobney.com> wrote in message
news:1ixD7.4184$Wq4.38901@NewsReader...
JRS
who also played soccer. After the first year of playing on a good club
team, they almost always stop or slow down the automatic kicking response.
They are in the 2nd or 3rd year of VB and still play soccer. The kicking
response shows up less and less. It also depends on whether they are still
playing soccer during the VB season or if they are playing VB during the off
season for soccer.
Jerry
"Mark Eastom" <mea...@freemind.net> wrote in message
news:AVSD7.252$u64....@news.uswest.net...
Bruno Wolff III
>
> This is a very good point that I wish I had made - if someone is also
> attempting to get to the ball in some more usual way (i.e. diving),
> then another attempting to kick the ball could be very dangerous.
The same is true whether the other person is diving or kicking. You need to
be able to communicate (both talk and listen) with your teammates. If
you can't communicate, you should be very careful.
John McCabe
<br...@cerberus.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
True, but when you have players of various levels playing together the
kicking/diving scenario is more likely to occur than with players of
the same level.
Paul G. Wenthold
>
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:05:27 -0500, "Paul G. Wenthold"
> <p...@purdue.edu> wrote:
>
> >Pro basketball is very different from olympic basketball which
> >is very different from College basketball which is different from
> >high school basketball. Hasn't seemed to be a big problem for
> >basketball players.
>
> So what are the differences for example?
>
From olympic to college basketball? The shape of the lane,
for one, which affects where people can set up on offense.
There are also different ways that fouls can be interpreted.
Moreover, there are differences in terms of in-bounding
the ball, and International rules are far more lax in that.
From college to high school, the big difference is in
the shot clock. Makes for a completely different game.
paul
John McCabe
Err - thanks. Unfortunately I don't play or watch basketball, so this
means very little to me :-)
I presume howevert that 'the shape of the lane' is related to some
marking on the floor, which is easily noticeable so can be reasonably
easily take account of. As for different interpretation of fouls, can
you give an example? What is 'in-bounding the ball'?
(Sorry to seem so dim, but basketball isn't that big here)
Paul G. Wenthold
>
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:03:32 -0500, "Paul G. Wenthold"
> <p...@purdue.edu> wrote:
>
> >From olympic to college basketball? The shape of the lane,
> >for one, which affects where people can set up on offense.
> >There are also different ways that fouls can be interpreted.
> >Moreover, there are differences in terms of in-bounding
> >the ball, and International rules are far more lax in that.
> >
> >From college to high school, the big difference is in
> >the shot clock. Makes for a completely different game.
>
> Err - thanks. Unfortunately I don't play or watch basketball, so this
> means very little to me :-)
>
> I presume howevert that 'the shape of the lane' is related to some
> marking on the floor, which is easily noticeable so can be reasonably
> easily take account of.
It can be, but you don't watch your feet very often. It would be like
moving the back row line back 6". It's marked on the floor, but you
don't
want to have be looking at your feet to make sure you know where you are
taking off from.
>As for different interpretation of fouls, can
> you give an example?
There can be differences in what is interpreted
as an offensive foul (the definition of "defensive
position") and what are called "hand-check" fouls, where
the defensive player uses his hand to control the movements
of the offensive player.
>What is 'in-bounding the ball'?
>
When play is started, the team with the ball throws it in
from outside the playing court. In college ball, the
referee has to hand the ball to the player to start play.
In international play, teams can just grab the ball themselves
and throw it in. The comparison would be a throw-in in soccer.
Imagine if every time the referee would have to hand the ball
to the player who is throwing the ball in. That would be what
happens in US college and high school. US teams always have to
prepare themselves for international play where the player just
grabs the ball and can throw it in before the defense has time
to set up or even get down the court.
> (Sorry to seem so dim, but basketball isn't that big here)
Consider yourself lucky.
paul
www.Volleyball.ORG
> "www.Volleyball.ORG" wrote:
> >
> > Kicking is o.k.,
> > but no biting (holding) or scratching (throwing)
> > ;-)
> >
> > Yes, High School rules are too slow to change.
> >
> > I have been complaining about this for the 12 years
> > that I have been coaching HS/Club volleyball.
> > There should be ONE set of rules for the game -
> > for High School/Club/College/Olympics/Adult Rec.
>
Do you have any experience with High School volleyball rules?
Experience teaching the skills, learning the skills,
or enforcing the rules?
The problem is that fundamental skills (i.e. contacting the ball),
and fundamental strategies (i.e. scoring systems) are very different
between High School and Club/College/Olympics.
> I don't know of a single sport where there is "ONE set of rules..."
> for all levels.
> Certainly does not hold for basball, basketball,
> or football. There are minor differences in wrestling.
> I don't know anything about Soccer to comment on it.
>
> Why should volleyball be any different?
>
> Pro basketball is very different from olympic basketball which
> is very different from College basketball which is different from
> high school basketball. Hasn't seemed to be a big problem for
> basketball players.
Not in fundamental skills (relatively minor differences in scoring).
I always enjoyed the "blood foul" rule;-)
>
> paul
Bruno Wolff III
>
> The problem is that fundamental skills (i.e. contacting the ball),
That is relevant since for Club and HS you will want to teach different
serve receive technique.
> and fundamental strategies (i.e. scoring systems) are very different
> between High School and Club/College/Olympics.
The strategy changes are minimal and and are almost entirely restricted to
the coaches (mostly dealing with how to use subs). The players should
generally play the same under either scoring system. The exception to this
would be relating to things that change over the course of a game (e.g.
someone who has trouble with their first few jump serves in a game may want
to use it only when using the scoring system that has more rallies on average
per game).
JRS
the rule set.
Thanks.
Jerry
"Still Learning"
"Bruno Wolff III" <br...@cerberus.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn9u0s6o...@cerberus.csd.uwm.edu...
John McCabe
Mark Eastom
reception of serves.
So in college matches the referees tend to let practically any type of over
hand serve receive go as being okay while in college a high percentage of
them are called. Some of the local high school referees seem to think that
its impossible to make a clean overhand serve receive and sometimes "seen
like" they're blowing the whistle even before the players actually quite
touch the ball on an attempted overhand serve receive.
In the college matches I see teams take a significant number of serves
overhanded, while in high school matches I almost never see it happen.
R Ozima
using finger action. Collegiate (NAGWS) & USAV allow for this. Carries are
still "lifts" in either rules set. Overhand serve receive is legal in
(Federation) high school ball as long as it is clean. Referees should not be
penalizing players for properly executing the skill.
Roger Ozima
USAV National Official
PAVO National Referee
IHSA Certified Referee
"Mark Eastom" <mea...@freemind.net> wrote in message
news:kQbE7.8$O%4.5...@news.uswest.net...
Victor E. Lindal
roz...@home.com wrote on 1/11/01 1:44 pm:
Thank you for this.
Vic
JRS
I did go to the IHSA clinic and rules meetings, so I have heard the
descriptions of what is allowable. I do not have the experience in reffing
it in a match.
QUOTE
> The problem is that fundamental skills (i.e. contacting the ball),
That is relevant since for Club and HS you will want to teach different
serve receive technique.
UNQUOTE
I will assume that the original posting (above) that someone would approach
the serve receive differently in HS vs. Club is that the overhand serve
receive is difficult to do "cleanly" and would most likely result in a call.
In USAV it most likely would not result in a call. THEREFORE: they would
teach not to use it in HS and possibly position their players differently
because of this difference. Is this the correct interpretation??
Jerry
"R Ozima" <roz...@home.com> wrote in message
news:fnjE7.112767$My2.63...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com...
Bruno Wolff III
>
> I will assume that the original posting (above) that someone would approach
> the serve receive differently in HS vs. Club is that the overhand serve
> receive is difficult to do "cleanly" and would most likely result in a call.
> In USAV it most likely would not result in a call. THEREFORE: they would
> teach not to use it in HS and possibly position their players differently
> because of this difference. Is this the correct interpretation??
Yes.