Hello,

FIVB rules: Yes, without restrictions; but service excepted.

cu
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Rainer Perske
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Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?

Yes, FIVB, USAV and collegiate rules have allowed it for several years
now regardless of intent.  I *think* high school rules may still be
different, but I'm not sure.

USA Volleyball rules:
   14.4 Characteristics of the hit
   14.4.1  The ball may touch any part of the body.

NAGWS rules (women's collegiate):
        8.3 Contact of Ball with the Body
                The ball may contat any part of the body.

Best Regards,
--
Todd Haverkos  t...@vbref.org
http://www.vbref.org/

On 10/29/01 7:44 AM, I was aghast to see that Todd Haverkos, who allegedly
has the email of t...@vbref.org had the gall to spew the following:

I believe NFHS still outlaws contacting the ball below the waist.  

I am a volleyball purest and am not alone in this.

Kicking the ball is one of the ugliest rule adoptions in the game. It is not
volleyball the same as playing a soccer ball with your hands is not soccer.

If a player is so bad they have to use their feet they need to improve their
physical skills. Playing with your feet is lazy volleball and for the
unskilled player.

Learn to play correctly and you will never have to use your feet.

<flames accepted>

news:lyn12a36iq.fsf@k2.onsight.com...

I take it in being a volleyball purist you still use the original mintonette
rules set forth when the game was created over 100 years ago?

I have no problem with kick saves in the sport, especially on the occasional
basis when defensive players simply can't cover EVERY attack that sneaks
past an ill-formed block or placed well by a skilled attacker.

I would potentially change my mind if it was a standard means that players
used to make a significant number of saves.

Regardless, I don't find kicked balls NEARLY as ugly as some of the overhand
passes that are now fairly regularly ignored on a team's first contact
during a rally.  Sometimes the first ball contacts seem to be held long
enough and ignored that I find myself wondering facetiously if the ball were
to be caught on a serve receive and walked over to the setter if it would be
called as a lift.

--------------

news:ttr046mdubij3a@corp.supernews.com...

I play in what's essentially a supervised open gym.  The
instructor/coach
says that the ball may be played off the foot (i.e. bounced), but not
kicked (i.e. driven).  I don't see anything in the standard rulesets
that
differentiates between the two, but she gets to make up her own set of
rules.

Yu-Ping Wang
Berkeley, California

Dakoma:

I watched Steve Obradavich kick a ball from the "A" court at Sorrento
to PCH on a hot sunny day back in......forget the year......If you had
your tape measure with you that day, it probably would have come back
at over 60 yds.  Pretty good kick in my opinion.

Pfish

According to my IL high school VB ref clinic, below the waist and therefore,
kicking, is illegal.  IL uses national federation rules.

Of course everyone gets a laugh seeing a successful kick return during USAV
matches but the coach doesn't appreciate them.  I have seen it several times
in boys USAV tournaments but can't recall seeing it happen in girls matches.

JRS

"Gai Hung Lo" <nuwildcat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:B802D934.F537%nuwildcatfan@yahoo.com...
| On 10/29/01 7:44 AM, I was aghast to see that Todd Haverkos, who allegedly
| has the email of t...@vbref.org had the gall to spew the following:
|

| >> Can you kick a volleyball in a game? I know that a ball can touch a
| >> player anywhere on the body but a deliberate kick?
| >
| > Yes, FIVB, USAV and collegiate rules have allowed it for several years
| > now regardless of intent.  I *think* high school rules may still be
| > different, but I'm not sure.
| >
| > USA Volleyball rules:
| > 14.4 Characteristics of the hit
| > 14.4.1  The ball may touch any part of the body.
| >
| > NAGWS rules (women's collegiate):
| > 8.3 Contact of Ball with the Body
| > The ball may contat any part of the body.
|
| I believe NFHS still outlaws contacting the ball below the waist.
|
|

On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:09:58 GMT, "JRS" <deletecurlyof...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

That's nice, but totally non-conformant with FIVB rules.

There is nothing in the FIVB rules to prevent the ball being kicked
but, as far as I can tell, it is often a guideline to referees that
kicking the ball is (or can be) dangerous and should not be
encouraged.

hi all

we've heard a lot here now about whether it's allowed or not in all the
big rulesets (and in some of the more, ahem, exotic ones :-)).

but are there also some ideas around as to the effectiveness of a kick?
(I'm not talking about a dig where you more or less get spiked on ur
foot and get away with a lucky save that way.) I'm maybe a little bit of
a purist myself, but if there were situations where it might be a better
way of playing a ball, why not excercise/teach it..?

.bob
--
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news:3BDE93C2.D794E42E@bwi.bepr.ethz.ch...

Round here, you occasionally see some players use a kick, but it's normally
because they are standing too upright and can't get low fast enough. Better
body position and technique tends to remove the need to kick from their
game - they can reach everything they could kick.

The only other place I seen it to be effective is for a ball hitting a block
and then being picked up with a kick either by the hitter as they land, or
by the block as the block lands. In both situations it is because the player
can't get to the floor fast enough so a kick may be the only solution. But
this happens so rarely (say once in 10-12 sets) that you wouldn't bother
coaching it.

Saul
www.bathvolleyball.co.uk

Believe me, everyone who plays by the High School Federation ruleset
complains how far behind they are to the FIVB and USAV ruleset.  Of course,
the purists may say it is a better set of rules than the current FIVB rules.
:-)

news:3bde7553.3005231@news.demon.co.uk...
| On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:09:58 GMT, "JRS" <deletecurlyof...@yahoo.com>
|
| >According to my IL high school VB ref clinic, below the waist and
therefore,
| >kicking, is illegal.  IL uses national federation rules.
|
| That's nice, but totally non-conformant with FIVB rules.
|
|

Kicking is o.k.,
but no biting (holding) or scratching (throwing)
;-)

Yes, High School rules are too slow to change.

I have been complaining about this for the 12 years
that I have been coaching HS/Club volleyball.
There should be ONE set of rules for the game -
for High School/Club/College/Olympics/Adult Rec.
(This must be the tenth time I posted this message...)

At least they finally got rid of blocking a serve
in High School.

There have been some interesting rules over the years.
One of the most troubling that I have come across -
for many years a five person screen was not only allowed
but was part of the offensive strategy when serving.
Imagine that...  

http://Volleyball.ORG/

I guess I don't understand the problem.  I don't know of
a single sport where there is "ONE set of rules..." for
all levels.  Certainly does not hold for basball, basketball,
or football.  There are minor differences in wrestling.
I don't know anything about Soccer to comment on it.

Why should volleyball be any different?

Pro basketball is very different from olympic basketball which
is very different from College basketball which is different from
high school basketball.  Hasn't seemed to be a big problem for
basketball players.

paul

    Round here, you occasionally see some players use a kick, but it's
    normally because they are standing too upright and can't get low
    fast enough. Better body position and technique tends to remove the
    need to kick from their game - they can reach everything they could
    kick.

Exactly right.  I don't mind if somebody (especially a converted soccer
player :) occasionally makes an outrageous save because their training
in another sport affords them skills I can only dream of acquiring
someday. On the other hand, I've seen kicks done far more commonly as a
substitute for diving, or worse, as a dispirited way of saying "I
couldn't get that" even as somebody else, much to their surprise, IS
diving, trying to reach it.

I've told the teams I've played on that if they want me to go all out
and dive for balls, then I'd like everybody to lead with their hands,
please, not their feet, because if I take a foot to the head because
somebody was too lazy to dive, the blow might just cause me to forget
who my friends are, and accidentally remove a leg.

Rick

On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:05:27 -0500, "Paul G. Wenthold"

As far as I can remember, the only differences in football (soccer to
you lot) when I was at school were that:

1) The pitch was smaller
2) The playing time was shorter.

I think at primary school we played around 30-35 minutes each way
compare to the professional game's 45 minutes each way.

In England, the difference between FIVB rules and junior rules is
pretty much only the net height.

So what are the differences for example?

It is nonsense to have fundamental rule differences between
school/junior/senior levels. What if you have junior players playing
for a senior team (as was the case in the national league team I used
to play for)?

On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:11:32 GMT, r...@eaglet.rain.com (Rick Lindsley)
wrote:

This is a very good point that I wish I had made - if someone is also
attempting to get to the ball in some more usual way (i.e. diving),
then another attempting to kick the ball could be very dangerous.

Celtic (Scottish football team) used to have a goalkeeper called
Johnny Thomson. He was killed during a Celtic-Rangers match because of
a kick to the head. Admittedly in football it is likely the kick was
harder than you would see in volleyball, but at least it may have been
partially expected!

hi all

[..]

I agree. as soon as you have something like the NBA in volleyball over
there, with professional refs as well, you can do so as you like. the
refs there ain't working anywhere else and vice versa (unless the
pro-refs go on strike, keke... I can remember that most everyone was
glad when the college-folks could go back to their games again :-)).
plus: the differences don't seem to be that huge in basketball? starting
with this season, the NBA has even cut illegal defense rule (whether
this will lead to more team-oriented offense or simply more shooting
from outside remains to be seen .-)).

.bob
--
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I actually see players standing too upright as a reason that they also have
to dive for balls far too often because they're not ready to make an
effective play.

Diving to make a play on a ball is also an emergency save type maneuver just
as kicking the ball is, and certainly a dive is typically more controlled
and safe than kicking at the ball is, however, having to dive to make saves
is frequently a sign of being out of position (or such things as having an
ill-formed block in front of the defense).

I still don't personally see any real problem with a player occasionally
making a kick save.

If it becomes a regular occurrence, however, its time to start figuring out
why they're needing to do so and work on either correcting what they're
doing that causes the need for it, or correcting what the rest of the team
is doing around them to cause the need for it.

I think, however, this is also true if that same player were having to make
diving plays on balls on a regular basis.

On hitter coverage its like you say, a player being in an upright stance
isn't going to consistently be able to make an effective play on the ball
their hitter just slammed into the block without a dive (or some other sort
of emergengy save), where if they had simply been in a better / lower
position they quite possibly could have made the dig simply because they're
ready for it.

----------------------

news:1ixD7.4184$Wq4.38901@NewsReader...

I saw kicking from my 14 year old son and a few of his club VB team mates
who also played soccer.  After the first year of playing on a good club
team, they almost always stop or slow down the automatic kicking response.
They are in the 2nd or 3rd year of VB and still play soccer.  The kicking
response shows up less and less.  It also depends on whether they are still
playing soccer during the VB season or if they are playing VB during the off
season for soccer.

Jerry

news:AVSD7.252$u64.77241@news.uswest.net...
| I actually see players standing too upright as a reason that they also
have
| to dive for balls far too often because they're not ready to make an
| effective play.
|
| Diving to make a play on a ball is also an emergency save type maneuver
just
| as kicking the ball is, and certainly a dive is typically more controlled
| and safe than kicking at the ball is, however, having to dive to make
saves
| is frequently a sign of being out of position (or such things as having an
| ill-formed block in front of the defense).
|
| I still don't personally see any real problem with a player occasionally
| making a kick save.
|
| If it becomes a regular occurrence, however, its time to start figuring
out
| why they're needing to do so and work on either correcting what they're
| doing that causes the need for it, or correcting what the rest of the team
| is doing around them to cause the need for it.
|
| I think, however, this is also true if that same player were having to
make
| diving plays on balls on a regular basis.
|
| On hitter coverage its like you say, a player being in an upright stance
| isn't going to consistently be able to make an effective play on the ball
| their hitter just slammed into the block without a dive (or some other
sort
| of emergengy save), where if they had simply been in a better / lower
| position they quite possibly could have made the dig simply because
they're
| ready for it.
|
| ----------------------
| "Saul Dobney" <saul.dob...@dobney.com> wrote in message
| news:1ixD7.4184$Wq4.38901@NewsReader...
| >
| > Round here, you occasionally see some players use a kick, but it's
| normally
| > because they are standing too upright and can't get low fast enough.
| Better
| > body position and technique tends to remove the need to kick from their
| > game - they can reach everything they could kick.
| >
| > The only other place I seen it to be effective is for a ball hitting a
| block
| > and then being picked up with a kick either by the hitter as they land,
or
| > by the block as the block lands. In both situations it is because the
| player
| > can't get to the floor fast enough so a kick may be the only solution.
But
| > this happens so rarely (say once in 10-12 sets) that you wouldn't bother
| > coaching it.
| >
| > Saul
| > www.bathvolleyball.co.uk
| >
| >
|
|
|

The same is true whether the other person is diving or kicking. You need to
be able to communicate (both talk and listen) with your teammates. If
you can't communicate, you should be very careful.

On 31 Oct 2001 14:38:39 GMT, Bruno Wolff III

True, but when you have players of various levels playing together the
kicking/diving scenario is more likely to occur than with players of
the same level.

From olympic to college basketball?  The shape of the lane,
for one, which affects where people can set up on offense.
There are also different ways that fouls can be interpreted.
Moreover, there are differences in terms of in-bounding
the ball, and International rules are far more lax in that.

From college to high school, the big difference is in
the shot clock.  Makes for a completely different game.

paul