That Roger now feels like, oh, I can do this.'

[PeteWasLucky]

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Roger_Federer/42685/paul-a
nnacone-for-three-years-i-lived-trying-to-solve-federer-s-problem-
against-nadal-/
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Court_1]

But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.

[The Iceberg]

On Monday, 24 April 2017 18:33:30 UTC+1, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Roger_Federer/42685/paul-a
> nnacone-for-three-years-i-lived-trying-to-solve-federer-s-problem-
> against-nadal-/

LOL he could've just waited until Nadal went out of sorts in 2014 and then made up some coblers about his improving Fed's backhand!

[Court_1]

Federer has definitely made changes to his backhand(both ROS on bh side and the groundstroke) when he plays Nadal you moron! That's plain to see. It used to be a weakness vs Nadal and it isn't any longer.

The only question I have is will that backhand be effective enough to beat Nadal at the FO? I doubt it. I think at Wimbledon and the USO, Fed will have the edge vs Nadal if he can continue striking his bh the way he did at the AO/IW/Miami. Also, a lot will depend on Nadal's forehand. On hc his fh didn't look so strong. It looked like he wasn't getting as much depth with that shot. But on clay in MC it looked a little better.

[Whisper]

On 25/04/2017 5:00 AM, Court_1 wrote:
> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
>

He'd have nothing to lose & should just serve big & go for the lines.
That a[[roach would be tough for Rafa.

Easier said than done, but of course Fed shouldn't take him on from the
baseline.

[kaennorsing]

Op dinsdag 25 april 2017 05:58:37 UTC+2 schreef Whisper:

Yes, he shouldn't view it as outplaying Rafa on clay. Instead, make it a hardcourt/grasscourt style match on clay. Easier said than done, but that's the only way. Keep points short, no rhythm for Rafa is key.

[The Iceberg]

Big deal, thicko! It wasn't that that made the difference though, it's that Nadal is out of sorts, you must be really dumb, aren't actually watching the matches themselves or are just a huge Fedfan to reckon otherwise. Fed has been playing at a great (peak) level for long time, to pretend he's winning just cos he's changed his bh is nonsense.

[RaspingDrive]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:03:09 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
> Big deal, thicko! It wasn't that that made the difference though, it's that Nadal is out of sorts, you must be really dumb, aren't actually watching the matches themselves or are just a huge Fedfan to reckon otherwise. Fed has been playing at a great (peak) level for long time, to pretend he's winning just cos he's changed his bh is nonsense.

Indeed. Nadal went 'out of sorts' after the hammering he received in the fifth set at AO 2017. No-one should pretend otherwise.

[The Iceberg]

Oh no, more fake news from Raspy!

[fymido...@yahoo.com]

It is not just Nadal who can beat him on clay. On a good day, there are several who are capable of beating Federer on clay (Murray, Djokovic, Wawrinka, Kyrgios, Simon, Thiem, some random clay specialist on a hot streak). Federer's aggressive game plan works well on HC (and presumably on grass). I am not so sure that will translate on clay. At his age, he is better off resting. Also, let's not forget how many times he was inches away from losing in Miami, and his off day in Dubai.

[RaspingDrive]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:14:38 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
> Oh no, more fake news from Raspy!

Take the 'fake news' crap to Trump threads :) Nadal started the fifth set with determination but soon wilted under Federer's onslaught. He thought a few sustained and powerful grunts made with conviction and a couple of murderous FHs would intimidate Federer causing his capitulation routine. Instead he was continuously cowed by Federer's brilliance (on that day) and ended up bemoaning that all Federer's shots found their mark and none strayed outside. Poor fellow, he was shocked out of his wits and has probably just recovered to win on his beloved clay.

[PeteWasLucky]

That Roger now feels like, oh, it's easy, I have done it the last four times.

[Court_1]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:03:09 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:

> Big deal, thicko! It wasn't that that made the difference though, it's that Nadal is out of sorts, you must be really dumb, aren't actually watching the matches themselves or are just a huge Fedfan to reckon otherwise. Fed has been playing at a great (peak) level for long time, to pretend he's winning just cos he's changed his bh is nonsense.

Shut up! Nobody cares what a dumbbell like you babbles on about on any topic.

There is no question that Federer is beating Nadal these days because Federer improved/changed his backhand. He's taking the ball earlier and hitting it flatter and harder. In that fifth set at the AO Federer went all out and didn't falter mentally against Nadal the way he had in the past. So two big things in Fed's favor in the match-up now: The improved bh and the mental edge(Fed's defeated Nadal the last four times) which is something that Nadal had in the past.

It's also true(and I've posted this many times before which some Fed fans such as Arnab took objection to) that in the IW and Miami Fed-Nadal matches, Nadal's forehand wasn't the same weapon it had been in the past. In Monte Carlo on the clay, Nadal's forehand looked much better thus far so we'll see if he can continue with that.

[Court_1]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 5:05:53 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:

> That Roger now feels like, oh, it's easy, I have done it the last four times.

But can Federer do it on clay in best of five vs Nadal?

[John Liang]

Clay will be very difficult to implement that sort of tactic, it gives Nadal that extra time to get to the ball. If Federer can do it on clay then he pretty much turned the corner against Nadal and will probably beat him everywhere. Then Federer's priority may not be French Open but Wimbledon and USO. I give the advantage to Nadal on clay. For Nadal this year's FO is probably more important than previous year, it will be a career defining tournament for him, if he lost the FO this year it is pretty much good bye for his chance to win another grand slam.

[Carey]

John L, I agree on all points. Fed beating Nadal at the French, at THIRTY-FIVE, is a delusional notion.

[Court_1]

I agree with you. It's hard to see how Federer will beat Nadal on clay in best of five at this stage.

As for Nadal winning the FO this year, a 10th FO would be huge for him. First let's see if Nadal can sweep the clay tune-ups.

[PeteWasLucky]

> John L, I agree on all points. Fed beating Nadal at the French, at THIRTY-FIVE, is a delusional notion.

Nadal was perfect in the FO last year and then suddenly came from nowhere saying he is injured.

So who knows ;)

[John Liang]

True, but I think Nadal is definitely thirstier for this title than he was last year. We are still early into clay court season. Both Djoker and Murray may still play themselves into form. How is Nadal going to measure up against in form Djoker/Murray will be interesting. I think Nadal needs to pace himself more carefully, avoiding injury and stay healthy going into the FO is probably more important for him than sweeping the titles, he also need to keep his confidence up by winning matches so somewhere he need to strike a fine balance.

[Whisper]

Yep, & Fed has got the ability to hit the lines.

On balance Rafa would start as very warm fave, but he'd hate to see a
super confident Fed hitting freely for the lines. On a good day the big
hitters can rattle any great claycourter, simply because they won't
allow you to play your game.

I don't give Fed a lot of hope getting through 7 bo5 on clay & then
facing Rafa, but as long as the calendar slam is alive he must give it a
good go.

[Whisper]

You never know in tennis - Rafa/Djoke/Murray could all be out before the
q/f. Fed could be hanging around with 2nd rate players in later rds &
hot fave to win.

[Whisper]

Yes, but this also could make Rafa desperate, pile the pressure on.

[The Iceberg]

Lol You're a bit of a thicko and you're a bit upset cos nobody listens to you at the small law advisors you work at but it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts. Still you always jump on the bandwagon eh

[Court_1]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 7:16:35 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:

> it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts.

Federer finally made a change to his backhand which has been helped by the new racket. This has made a difference when he plays Nadal because that was Fed's weakness that Nadal exploited time and time again. Without that weakness to target, Nadal hasn't won the last four Fedal matches. Nadal had no plan B. I know you are stupid but for once try and use at least some of that pea brain of yours. Even Whisper (a big Fed hater) acknowledged the changes in Fed's bh helped him beat Nadal.

>Still you always jump on the bandwagon eh

Like the Djokovic bandwagon or Thiem bandwagon? *sarcasm*

[RaspingDrive]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 7:16:35 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
> Lol You're a bit of a thicko and you're a bit upset cos nobody listens to you at the small law advisors you work at but it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts. Still you always jump on the bandwagon eh

When Federer serves well Nadal will invariably look 'out of sorts', something Nadal himself admitted after IW 2017. Why can't you accept that Federer with his new found freedom plays without fear and this to some extent helps him fight off some of the demons accumulated by repeated losses to Nadal? Your obstinacy to give credit where it is due does you no good.

[RaspingDrive]

There is no doubt that Federer has his back hand cracking. Only an envious fellow like Icey will refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

[Carey]

What's cool is Fed knows well now what he has to do to win v Nadal. It may not always work, but there is no more too-many-options confusion or temporizing.

[TT]

27.4.2017, 2:20, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 7:16:35 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
>
>> it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts.
>
> Federer finally made a change to his backhand which has been helped by the new racket. This has made a difference when he plays Nadal because that was Fed's weakness that Nadal exploited time and time again. Without that weakness to target, Nadal hasn't won the last four Fedal matches. Nadal had no plan B. I know you are stupid but for once try and use at least some of that pea brain of yours. Even Whisper (a big Fed hater) acknowledged the changes in Fed's bh helped him beat Nadal.
>

So all these years you claimed Federer as GOAT he didn't even know how
to hit backhand properly?

There are few flaws with your theory...

-Fed has had the larger racket for quite some time.
-He could have lost to Rafa at AO, same numbers as in 2009.
-He starts winning against Rafa when Rafa is losing to everyone and
especially finals.
-Fed has always been able to beat Rafa, lots of close matches in their h2h
-Rafa has lost before to Fed when he goes too much to backhand on fast
surface.
-It's often that Fed's fh is problem too, Rafa has won many matches due
to Fed's fh breaking down.
-Rafa does better against Fed when he goes less to bh, this has always
been so.
-If he's now figured out Rafa then why is he avoiding facing him on clay...

At least with your 'Fed has now figured out Rafa' nonsense you can't
claim matchup problem but have to simply conclude that all these years
Fed simply was not good enough (as in having poor bh) to beat Rafa.

[TT]

26.4.2017, 14:16, The Iceberg kirjoitti:
> but it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts.

I think this is correct.

And also because Fed is playing currently his best tennis, WHEN Rafa has
been out of sorts.

For some reason Fed doesn't seem to trust his chances on clay.
...That is because he's afraid that Rafa would get his mojo back against
him should they meet there.

In any case if Rafa keeps on playing like he currently is then there's
little Fed can do to avoid the inevitable normalization of the scales.

[RaspingDrive]

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 6:27:28 AM UTC-4, TT wrote:
> 27.4.2017, 2:20, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 7:16:35 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
> >
> >> it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts.
> >
> > Federer finally made a change to his backhand which has been helped by the new racket. This has made a difference when he plays Nadal because that was Fed's weakness that Nadal exploited time and time again. Without that weakness to target, Nadal hasn't won the last four Fedal matches. Nadal had no plan B. I know you are stupid but for once try and use at least some of that pea brain of yours. Even Whisper (a big Fed hater) acknowledged the changes in Fed's bh helped him beat Nadal.
> >
>
> So all these years you claimed Federer as GOAT he didn't even know how
> to hit backhand properly?
>
> There are few flaws with your theory...
>
> -Fed has had the larger racket for quite some time.
> -He could have lost to Rafa at AO, same numbers as in 2009.

Yet you would have us believe that Rafa is 'out of sorts'.

> -He starts winning against Rafa when Rafa is losing to everyone and
> especially finals.

When was Rafa ever a HC genius? Genius? The second one referring to you :)

> -Fed has always been able to beat Rafa, lots of close matches in their h2h

Good point. A bunch of not so close matches as well.

> -Rafa has lost before to Fed when he goes too much to backhand on fast
> surface.
> -It's often that Fed's fh is problem too, Rafa has won many matches due
> to Fed's fh breaking down.
> -Rafa does better against Fed when he goes less to bh, this has always
> been so.
> -If he's now figured out Rafa then why is he avoiding facing him on clay...

Duh! He acknowledges Rafa is a clay GOAT! On HC he handicaps Rafa by taking away the time. Indeed, some of the Rafa responses when responding to crashing Fed FHs or BHs are openly risible. He is so deprived of time that his shots performed in comical fashion are meek returns that stray outside by several meters. Not so on clay.

> At least with your 'Fed has now figured out Rafa' nonsense you can't
> claim matchup problem but have to simply conclude that all these years
> Fed simply was not good enough (as in having poor bh) to beat Rafa.

Federer clearly plays with more freedom. Do you agree?

[RaspingDrive]

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 6:36:01 AM UTC-4, TT wrote:
> 26.4.2017, 14:16, The Iceberg kirjoitti:
> > but it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts.
>
> I think this is correct.
>
> And also because Fed is playing currently his best tennis, WHEN Rafa has
> been out of sorts.

When will Rafa stop being 'out of sorts' on HC? We are waiting.

> For some reason Fed doesn't seem to trust his chances on clay.
> ...That is because he's afraid that Rafa would get his mojo back against
> him should they meet there.

This is probably true. Federer has admitted his clay spankings created self doubt on grass and HC as well.

> In any case if Rafa keeps on playing like he currently is then there's
> little Fed can do to avoid the inevitable normalization of the scales.

You added your convenient 'if' there. Nice escape route.

[Federer Fanatic]

Good post and I say that as an avowed Fed Fanatic.
Yes, Federer's block was simply his own stubborness at using the full potential of
the newer racquet. Kind of vexing for us fed fans.

Having said that I would expect Nadal to win FO even if he's playing Fed
in the current form.

FF

[PeteWasLucky]

Federer Fanatic <TheRelen...@nospam.invalid> Wrote in message:

If Federer builds up his energy and game until the FO without
playing any tournaments and he finds a way to reach easily the QF
or the SF he will have a good chance to win the FO.

But too many ifs..

[Court_1]

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 6:27:28 AM UTC-4, TT wrote:

> So all these years you claimed Federer as GOAT he didn't even know how
> to hit backhand properly?

Federer is the GOAT and yes it's hard to believe but he didn't hit the bh vs Nadal the way he has since the AO 2017,i.e. taking it earlier, stronger and more flat. It's hard to believe such a simple solution would do the trick but it has.

> There are few flaws with your theory...
>
> -Fed has had the larger racket for quite some time.

How many times has he played Nadal since he had that large racket?

> -He could have lost to Rafa at AO, same numbers as in 2009.

But he didn't lose this time. He was the more aggressive player in the fifth set and took it to Nadal. He also didn't lose in IW and Miami where the surface favors Nadal!

> -He starts winning against Rafa when Rafa is losing to everyone and
> especially finals.

On hardcourt and grass I would favor Federer these days. On clay in best of five, I would favor Nadal.

> -Fed has always been able to beat Rafa, lots of close matches in their h2h

True but Fed messed up many of the important ones, i.e. Wimbledon 2008 and AO 2009. Mixture of bad tactics vs Nadal and lack of belief that he could beat Nadal.

> -Rafa has lost before to Fed when he goes too much to backhand on fast
> surface.

On faster surfaces I would favor Federer these days IF Federer can continue doing what he did at the AO/IW/Miami.

> -If he's now figured out Rafa then why is he avoiding facing him on clay...

Because Nadal is a lot better on clay than Federer is and Federer doesn't want to have to grind it out over five sets vs Nadal on clay and risk injury.

> At least with your 'Fed has now figured out Rafa' nonsense you can't
> claim matchup problem but have to simply conclude that all these years
> Fed simply was not good enough (as in having poor bh) to beat Rafa.

Federer's bh was a real weakness vs prime Nadal but it's Federer's fault for not trusting himself to make some bh changes and sticking with them when playing Nadal. Federer didn't have the confidence in those days because Nadal was whipping his ass on clay. Today, Fed has made changes to the bh and seems committed to them when he plays Nadal. Nadal's fh off clay has also been weaker than it was during his prime. So that's part of the story too. On clay Nadal's fh is looking better this year so far.

[Court_1]

I agree. It's unrealistic to think Federer at age 35 could beat Nadal (in his current form) at the FO in best of five.

[Whisper]

No brainer, when you consider Rafa had Fed on the ropes in AO final
leading 3-1 in 5th.



--
"A GOAT who isn't BOAT can never become GOAT if he plays alongside BOAT"

[Federer Fanatic]

Fed has to go up 2 sets to love ...

FF

[The Iceberg]

It's hilarious your nonsense about Fed's bh has the caveat that it doesn't work on clay Lol

[TT]

28.4.2017, 3:41, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> Nadal's fh off clay has also been weaker than it was during his prime.

At least you admit that. And he still could/should have beaten Fed at AO.

> So that's part of the story too. On clay Nadal's fh is looking better this year so far.

Looks close to normal, I think his game is on upwards trajectory...
looks better this week than last imo.

This guy Chung played pretty well today. Someone to keep an eye on in
the future...

[Court_1]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:46:17 PM UTC-4, TT wrote:
> 28.4.2017, 3:41, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> > Nadal's fh off clay has also been weaker than it was during his prime.
>
> At least you admit that. And he still could/should have beaten Fed at AO.

As YOU should admit that Federer has made changes to his bh when he plays Nadal and that's a big reason why he has defeated Nadal the last four times! Why can't most fans of players admit the truth and they have to cherry pick to make their favorite players seem infallible? This fan thing can be so sickening.

If Federer and Nadal play at the FO, I would probably pick Nadal to win depending on how Nadal looks at the the rest of the clay tune-ups when he has to play a decent player. He hasn't played any decent players on clay yet, let's be honest. But, if Fed and Nadal meet at Wimbledon and the USO, I would give Fed the edge unless Fed's form falls off a cliff.

> > So that's part of the story too. On clay Nadal's fh is looking better this year so far.
>
> Looks close to normal, I think his game is on upwards trajectory...
> looks better this week than last imo.
>
> This guy Chung played pretty well today. Someone to keep an eye on in
> the future...

I haven't seen any of the Barcelona matches. We need to see Nadal play a top player which won't happen until he plays Murray in Barcelona.

[Court_1]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 12:20:21 PM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:

> It's hilarious your nonsense about Fed's bh has the caveat that it doesn't work on clay Lol

The surfaces are different you buffoon! You haven't figured that out yet? That's why Nadal has 9 FO's and only 3 hc slams or why Federer has 10 hc slams and 1 FO! I don't think Federer will be able to hit through Nadal the same way at the FO but who knows with sneaky Fed. He could be practicing on clay as we speak even though he says he's practicing on hc and he could surprise us.

[TT]

28.4.2017, 23:21, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:46:17 PM UTC-4, TT wrote:
>> 28.4.2017, 3:41, Court_1 kirjoitti:
>>> Nadal's fh off clay has also been weaker than it was during his prime.
>>
>> At least you admit that. And he still could/should have beaten Fed at AO.
>
> As YOU should admit that Federer has made changes to his bh when he plays Nadal and that's a big reason why he has defeated Nadal the last four times!

Another thing is if it would work when Rafa is hitting his fh well.

> If Federer and Nadal play at the FO, I would probably pick Nadal

Probably?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

> He hasn't played any decent players on clay yet, let's be honest. But, if Fed and Nadal meet at Wimbledon and the USO, I would give Fed the edge unless Fed's form falls off a cliff.
>
>

Murray almost lost to Ramos-Vinolas today, again. There's not much
difference playing RV or Murray. Rafa's clay form is currently much
higher than Murray ever reached. RV looked ordinary in MC final because
Rafa is that good. I think likes of RV, Chung, Thiem etc could be
beating Djok/Murray at RG...

Having said that, Murray brings different kind of mental and matchup
challenge for Rafa and I hope they meet on Sunday since it's sort of
like a practice match against Djoko-lite.

[PeteWasLucky]

I don't think Djokovic will make it to the SF of FO to play nadal if he can't find his top level soon.

Two weeks ago it was about finding his game but now it's about finding his confidence and game, but this can happen very quickly.

Also I am not sure Djokovic wants another FO that badly after long struggle to win just one.

Nadal is the hot favorite for the FO this year.

[Court_1]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:44:06 PM UTC-4, TT wrote:

> > As YOU should admit that Federer has made changes to his bh when he plays Nadal and that's a big reason why he has defeated Nadal the last four times!
>
> Another thing is if it would work when Rafa is hitting his fh well.

Nadal was hitting his fh well in the AO final! Nadal's fh wasn't as solid at IW and Miami. On clay it's a different story so far.

> > If Federer and Nadal play at the FO, I would probably pick Nadal
>
>
> Probably?
>
> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Yes, probably. Don't get cocky. You have seen what can happen! What if Djokovic finds some form by the FO and beats Nadal or what if Federer is practicing on clay NOW and will surprise us at the FO! There are no guarantees. At the FO I would probably pick Nadal over Federer and at Wimbledon and the USO, edge to Fed over Nadal. Don't you agree? Of course you won't ever admit it even if you did.

> Murray almost lost to Ramos-Vinolas today, again. There's not much
> difference playing RV or Murray. Rafa's clay form is currently much
> higher than Murray ever reached.

Murray at his best on clay is better than RV! Murray is not back to his best yet! But I do think Nadal will probably beat Murray if they meet in Barcelona. All I'm saying is that Nadal hasn't faced any of the top players on clay yet in MC or in Barcelona but Nadal would be the fave at the moment vs anybody.

> RV looked ordinary in MC final because
> Rafa is that good.

Oh please! RV is a journeyman of the highest order! Remember what I said a few minutes ago about crazy fans? Listen to yourself!

> I think likes of RV, Chung, Thiem etc could be
> beating Djok/Murray at RG...

I doubt it.

[TT]

29.4.2017, 0:09, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> Don't get cocky.

If you can't be cocky as a fan with Rafa on clay...

>> I think likes of RV, Chung, Thiem etc could be
>> beating Djok/Murray at RG...
> I doubt it.
>

Let's see if he beats Thiem tomorrow...

[Whisper]

On 29/04/2017 6:21 AM, Court_1 wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:46:17 PM UTC-4, TT wrote:
>> 28.4.2017, 3:41, Court_1 kirjoitti:
>>> Nadal's fh off clay has also been weaker than it was during his prime.
>>
>> At least you admit that. And he still could/should have beaten Fed at AO.
>
> As YOU should admit that Federer has made changes to his bh when he plays Nadal and that's a big reason why he has defeated Nadal the last four times! Why can't most fans of players admit the truth and they have to cherry pick to make their favorite players seem infallible? This fan thing can be so sickening.
>
> If Federer and Nadal play at the FO, I would probably pick Nadal to win depending on how Nadal looks at the the rest of the clay tune-ups when he has to play a decent player. He hasn't played any decent players on clay yet, let's be honest. But, if Fed and Nadal meet at Wimbledon and the USO, I would give Fed the edge unless Fed's form falls off a cliff.
>

I would 100% pick Rafa, but would love to see Fed beat Rafa in FO final
too. That would be trippy.

: )

[kaennorsing]

Op donderdag 27 april 2017 12:27:28 UTC+2 schreef TT:

There is a difference between a 'poor backhand' and a backhand not quite matching up to Rafa's forehand, don't you think?

Fed's backhand was never poor, but his current backhand is better then ever when dealing with 2nd serve returns and balls at waist height. Clear for everyone to see. Yes, it took a few years to fully benefit from the larger frame. Pretty much as one would expect at that level.

[kaennorsing]

Op vrijdag 28 april 2017 21:46:17 UTC+2 schreef TT:

> 28.4.2017, 3:41, Court_1 kirjoitti:
> > Nadal's fh off clay has also been weaker than it was during his prime.
>
> At least you admit that. And he still could/should have beaten Fed at AO.

Nonsense. All the stats say Fed was better in every aspect of that match and from any position in the court (apart from far behind the baseline where Fed never went)... Plus he actually won the match by winning the last 5 games, blowing Rafa off the court.

[*skriptis]

kaennorsing <ljub...@hotmail.com> Wrote in message:

Actually it's someehat doubtful that Federer backhand has that
much improved. It might be improved, but how serious is the
notion of a 35-year old improving his shot significantly?

The thing is, Federer stopped slicing, ad nauseam, abandoned
passive play, stoped being a pussy and went for it. That's it.


His backhand being so much better? Definitely not. Somewhat
better? It could be, but he never played this way before so we
can't exactly compare.



(Plus Nadal being out of sorts)
I agree with muratozglu in fact I've said it myself, he hasn't
played his smartest tennis in that AO final. Squandered third set
totally. But neither has Federer responded intelligently in their
previous matches. So.

[RaspingDrive]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 8:30:02 AM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
> kaennorsing <ljub...@hotmail.com> Wrote in message:

> > Fed's backhand was never poor, but his current backhand is better then ever when dealing with 2nd serve returns and balls at waist height. Clear for everyone to see. Yes, it took a few years to fully benefit from the larger frame. Pretty much as one would expect at that level.
> >
>
>
> Actually it's someehat doubtful that Federer backhand has that
> much improved. It might be improved, but how serious is the
> notion of a 35-year old improving his shot significantly?
>
> The thing is, Federer stopped slicing, ad nauseam, abandoned
> passive play, stoped being a pussy and went for it. That's it.
>
>
> His backhand being so much better? Definitely not. Somewhat
> better? It could be, but he never played this way before so we
> can't exactly compare.
>
>
>
> (Plus Nadal being out of sorts)

Ha ha. You finally spit it out! The Nadal-is-out-of-sorts bandwagon now consists of the 'usual suspects' sans W --- Icey, bob, Skriptis, TT. Surprisingly W hasn't joined the bandwagon yet. The truth is Nadal lost his enthusiasm to track down every ball! The insouciance of youth now replaced with careworn attitude that is inevitable with the setting in of middle age.

[MBDunc]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 3:30:02 PM UTC+3, *skriptis wrote:
> Actually it's someehat doubtful that Federer backhand has that
> much improved. It might be improved, but how serious is the
> notion of a 35-year old improving his shot significantly?
>
> The thing is, Federer stopped slicing, ad nauseam, abandoned
> passive play, stoped being a pussy and went for it. That's it.
>
>
> His backhand being so much better? Definitely not. Somewhat
> better? It could be, but he never played this way before so we
> can't exactly compare.

It is more mental thing. Fed has played this game before - but not against Nadal. Now he played loose enough and that paid of (and increased his confidence as seen in IW/KB(

> (Plus Nadal being out of sorts)
> I agree with muratozglu in fact I've said it myself, he hasn't
> played his smartest tennis in that AO final. Squandered third set
> totally. But neither has Federer responded intelligently in their
> previous matches. So.

Indeed. Both Fed/Nadal (and Djoker) have created a monster. In reality someone just have to get shorter straw and sometimes it is just not "tennis-of-a-day" or physics. It is just impossible to succee mentally 100% dayin/dayout.

.mikko

[Pelle Svanslös]

On 29.4.2017 15:44, RaspingDrive wrote:
> On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 8:30:02 AM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
>>
>> Actually it's someehat doubtful that Federer backhand has that
>> much improved. It might be improved, but how serious is the
>> notion of a 35-year old improving his shot significantly?

He didn't really change anything as in changing the form. He started
taking it earlier ...

>>
>> The thing is, Federer stopped slicing, ad nauseam, abandoned
>> passive play, stoped being a pussy and went for it. That's it.

... which is partly the same as not being passive. Which is quite a lot,
if I may say so.

>>
>> His backhand being so much better? Definitely not. Somewhat
>> better? It could be, but he never played this way before so we
>> can't exactly compare.

We can compare the results.

>> (Plus Nadal being out of sorts)

This is complete nonsense when Rafa is blowing everybody out of the
water (well, at least the Busta Vinolas he's played so far) on clay.

[*skriptis]

RaspingDrive <raspin...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

So you include yourself as well. Welcome. ;)

[bob]

? you think this is the same nadal who won those 14 slams? really? the
"stick a fork in him" crowd is huge. the fact he made a mild comeback
in the past few months doesn't show me anything yet, and watching his
game he's not playing the way he used to.

bob

[Pelle Svanslös]

On 29.4.2017 18:40, bob wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 05:44:13 -0700 (PDT), RaspingDrive
> <raspin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 8:30:02 AM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
>>> kaennorsing<ljub...@hotmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>
>>>> Fed's backhand was never poor, but his current backhand is better then ever when dealing with 2nd serve returns and balls at waist height. Clear for everyone to see. Yes, it took a few years to fully benefit from the larger frame. Pretty much as one would expect at that level.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually it's someehat doubtful that Federer backhand has that
>>> much improved. It might be improved, but how serious is the
>>> notion of a 35-year old improving his shot significantly?
>>>
>>> The thing is, Federer stopped slicing, ad nauseam, abandoned
>>> passive play, stoped being a pussy and went for it. That's it.
>>>
>>>
>>> His backhand being so much better? Definitely not. Somewhat
>>> better? It could be, but he never played this way before so we
>>> can't exactly compare.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (Plus Nadal being out of sorts)
>>
>> Ha ha. You finally spit it out! The Nadal-is-out-of-sorts bandwagon now consists of the 'usual suspects' sans W --- Icey, bob, Skriptis, TT. Surprisingly W hasn't joined the bandwagon yet. The truth is Nadal lost his enthusiasm to track down every ball! The insouciance of youth now replaced with careworn attitude that is inevitable with the setting in of middle age.
>
> ? you think this is the same nadal who won those 14 slams?

He's on right now against Zeballos. Check it out.

[RaspingDrive]

To the extent that the 'out of sorts' is indicative of his sustained future level, yes. He will not run that hard any more.

[RaspingDrive]

He is not surely the USO 2010 level, that I grant to you! He is out of sorts in the sense he probably won't run 'helter-skelter' everywhere to retrieve balls. He is older.

[bob]

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:20:04 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
<olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 5:10:57 PM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
>> On Monday, 24 April 2017 18:33:30 UTC+1, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>> > http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Roger_Federer/42685/paul-a
>> > nnacone-for-three-years-i-lived-trying-to-solve-federer-s-problem-
>> > against-nadal-/
>>
>> LOL he could've just waited until Nadal went out of sorts in 2014 and then made up some coblers about his improving Fed's backhand!
>
>Federer has definitely made changes to his backhand(both ROS on bh side and the groundstroke) when he plays Nadal you moron! That's plain to see. It used to be a weakness vs Nadal and it isn't any longer.

only because nadal's game has changed and doesn't, or isn't capable
of, exploiting it any longer.

he doesn't hit the same type of shot. he hits it harder/flatter than
he used to for the most part, more similarly to djokovic, which plays
to federer's strength. likely he does it cause he knows his body isn't
what it was.

>The only question I have is will that backhand be effective enough to beat Nadal at the FO? I doubt it. I think at Wimbledon and the USO, Fed will have the edge vs Nadal if he can continue striking his bh the way he did at the AO/IW/Miami. Also, a lot will depend on Nadal's forehand. On hc his fh didn't look so strong. It looked like he wasn't getting as much depth with that shot. But on clay in MC it looked a little better.

bob

[bob]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 19:03:54 -0700 (PDT), Carey <carey...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>John L, I agree on all points. Fed beating Nadal at the French, at THIRTY-FIVE, is a delusional notion.

nice try.

no, not delusional at all. the only thing that would prevent fed from
having a good chance VS nadal on any surface is the 2 months break,
getting a bit out of shape, etc. if he stuck to the clay season he'd
have a very good chance to beat nadal even on clay.

bob

[bob]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
<olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:03:09 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
>
>> Big deal, thicko! It wasn't that that made the difference though, it's that Nadal is out of sorts, you must be really dumb, aren't actually watching the matches themselves or are just a huge Fedfan to reckon otherwise. Fed has been playing at a great (peak) level for long time, to pretend he's winning just cos he's changed his bh is nonsense.
>
>Shut up! Nobody cares what a dumbbell like you babbles on about on any topic.
>
>There is no question that Federer is beating Nadal these days because Federer improved/changed his backhand. He's taking the ball earlier and hitting it flatter and harder. In that fifth set at the AO Federer went all out and didn't falter mentally against Nadal the way he had in the past. So two big things in Fed's favor in the match-up now: The improved bh and the mental edge(Fed's defeated Nadal the last four times) which is something that Nadal had in the past.
>
>It's also true(and I've posted this many times before which some Fed fans such as Arnab took objection to) that in the IW and Miami Fed-Nadal matches, Nadal's forehand wasn't the same weapon it had been in the past.

that's absolutely right. his FH is far weaker than it used to be. (1)
many more errors (2) far less topspin.

> In Monte Carlo on the clay, Nadal's forehand looked much better thus far so we'll see if he can continue with that.

bob

[bob]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:27:30 +0300, TT <as...@dprk.kp> wrote:

>27.4.2017, 2:20, Court_1 kirjoitti:
>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 7:16:35 AM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
>>
>>> it a shame you lying and pretending Fed won vs Nadal cos of his bh when really anyone normal knows it's cos Nadal is out of sorts.
>>
>> Federer finally made a change to his backhand which has been helped by the new racket. This has made a difference when he plays Nadal because that was Fed's weakness that Nadal exploited time and time again. Without that weakness to target, Nadal hasn't won the last four Fedal matches. Nadal had no plan B. I know you are stupid but for once try and use at least some of that pea brain of yours. Even Whisper (a big Fed hater) acknowledged the changes in Fed's bh helped him beat Nadal.
>>
>
>So all these years you claimed Federer as GOAT he didn't even know how
>to hit backhand properly?
>
>There are few flaws with your theory...
>
>-Fed has had the larger racket for quite some time.
>-He could have lost to Rafa at AO, same numbers as in 2009.
>-He starts winning against Rafa when Rafa is losing to everyone and
>especially finals.
>-Fed has always been able to beat Rafa, lots of close matches in their h2h
>-Rafa has lost before to Fed when he goes too much to backhand on fast
>surface.
>-It's often that Fed's fh is problem too, Rafa has won many matches due
>to Fed's fh breaking down.
>-Rafa does better against Fed when he goes less to bh, this has always
>been so.
>-If he's now figured out Rafa then why is he avoiding facing him on clay...
>
>At least with your 'Fed has now figured out Rafa' nonsense you can't
>claim matchup problem but have to simply conclude that all these years
>Fed simply was not good enough (as in having poor bh) to beat Rafa.

i'll get slammed for this again, but fed hasn't "figured out rafa."

your post is spot on - fed was always very close with rafa minus a
couple FO matches and rafa has dramatically dropped past 3 yrs, while
fed at this point right now hasn't. age just doesn't seem to bother
fed as it has all the other players, is what it is.

none of the rst chickens would answer my post of last month asking
people to rate fed, djok, murray and rafa's overall level on a 1-100
scale compared to the best tennis of the past 15 yrs. nope, they all
know what i've got in store for them once they do.

bob

[bob]

>Good post and I say that as an avowed Fed Fanatic.
>Yes, Federer's block was simply his own stubborness at using the full potential of
>the newer racquet. Kind of vexing for us fed fans.
>
>Having said that I would expect Nadal to win FO even if he's playing Fed
>in the current form.

do you think nadal is at his peak right now?

bob

[bob]

On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:04:52 -0700 (PDT), RaspingDrive

that's right. and for all of those people (the majority) who claimed
rafa was just a retriever, when he can't do that well any longer
naturally his overall level has dramatically dropped.

bob

[Guypers]

Yes, not good enough to beat 35 yr old Fed, if only Fed had played like now 08 onwards, Rafa would have 7 FOs, nothing else!

[bob]

On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 15:34:21 -0700 (PDT), Guypers <gap...@gmail.com>
wrote:

ahahahahhaha. you're one wacky dude guypers.

bob

[Court_1]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 6:04:24 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:

> that's absolutely right. his FH is far weaker than it used to be. (1)
> many more errors (2) far less topspin.

But in the AO final Nadal's fh was excellent. It wasn't as good at IW and Miami.
Federer won the AO because he went for it in the fifth set and had no fear. There is no question that Fed's improved bh and his lack of fear can get the job done vs Nadal(off clay at least.)

[Court_1]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 6:08:25 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:

> i'll get slammed for this again, but fed hasn't "figured out rafa."

Yes he has. Improved bh plus lack of fear which paralyzed him in the past.

> your post is spot on - fed was always very close with rafa minus a
> couple FO matches and rafa has dramatically dropped past 3 yrs, while
> fed at this point right now hasn't. age just doesn't seem to bother
> fed as it has all the other players, is what it is.
>
> none of the rst chickens would answer my post of last month asking
> people to rate fed, djok, murray and rafa's overall level on a 1-100
> scale compared to the best tennis of the past 15 yrs. nope, they all
> know what i've got in store for them once they do.

The fact is that off clay if Federer had made the changes to his bh then that he has made today (taking it earlier and not slicing), that would have probably made the difference at Wimbledon 2008 and AO 2009 vs Nadal. Federer also had too much fear when playing Nadal in those days because of all of those clay beatings. Federer is the greater player off clay than Nadal is. It's not rocket science. I'm sure Nadal's mother and Uncle Toni would admit same.

Nadal is looking back to close to his best on clay and should win RG this year (so no excuses if Federer comes into RG and somehow miraculously beats this Nadal.)

[SliceAndDice]

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:00:29 PM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.

Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.

[Carey]

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 1:21:56 PM UTC-7, SliceAndDice wrote:

> Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.

Good summary. That's how I see it as well.

[PeteWasLucky]

> Good summary. That's how I see it as well.

Me too but this Roger is playing fear free enjoying himself playing every part of his game and talent. I wouldn't be surprised if he beats Nadal in the FO provided he had 3-4 matches on clay.

[*skriptis]

SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:00:29 PM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
>> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
>
> Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.
>

There is a difference though. Obviouosy Nadal is improving as we
speak playing on clay.

Remember he got crushed by Raonic and Querrey
on hardcourt.


Plus, imo the most important thing, not playing against Federer
for such a long period made him bit rusty in that big match. He
had patches of stupid play.

Whisper is right that these guys crave for tune up practice and
self confidence before big matches.



That's why imo, I don't think Murray and Djokovic would challenge
Nadal at FO. Not enough time for them to raise their games to
very high level that's needed.

Only Nadal can harm himself now by overplaying or injuring himself.

[SliceAndDice]

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 8:30:02 PM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
> SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:00:29 PM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
> >> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
> >
> > Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.
> >
>
>
> There is a difference though. Obviouosy Nadal is improving as we
> speak playing on clay.

Funny how Nadal always miraculously improves on clay. Maybe he just isn't as good on the other surfaces?

> Remember he got crushed by Raonic and Querrey
> on hardcourt.

He has lost to guys he should not have lost to during his peak as well (only on surfaces other than clay)

>
> Plus, imo the most important thing, not playing against Federer
> for such a long period made him bit rusty in that big match. He
> had patches of stupid play.

If anything, I think it was Roger who suffered from rust during that match. It should not have gone 5, he was the better player throughout. He improved as he continued playing tournaments.

> Whisper is right that these guys crave for tune up practice and
> self confidence before big matches.
>
>
>
> That's why imo, I don't think Murray and Djokovic would challenge
> Nadal at FO. Not enough time for them to raise their games to
> very high level that's needed.

Djokovic has rope-a-doped before, but yes, at this moment Nadal is the overwhelming favorite.

[John Liang]

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 10:30:02 AM UTC+10, *skriptis wrote:
> SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> > On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:00:29 PM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
> >> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
> >
> > Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.
> >
>
>
> There is a difference though. Obviouosy Nadal is improving as we
> speak playing on clay.
>
> Remember he got crushed by Raonic and Querrey
> on hardcourt.
>
>
> Plus, imo the most important thing, not playing against Federer
> for such a long period made him bit rusty in that big match. He
> had patches of stupid play.
>
> Whisper is right that these guys crave for tune up practice and
> self confidence before big matches.
>
>
>
> That's why imo, I don't think Murray and Djokovic would challenge
> Nadal at FO. Not enough time for them to raise their games to
> very high level that's needed.

Not enough time ? Well, there are still four weeks of clay court warm ups before the FO, there are two major clay court warm ups Madrid and Rome, this week there is three 250 level tournaments in Istanbul, Munich and Estoril and after Rome there is another week of clay court warm ups then FO. Even at FO they can play themselves into form if they don't bomb out the first week.

[*skriptis]

SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 8:30:02 PM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
>> SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>> > On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:00:29 PM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
>> >> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
>> >
>> > Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.
>> >
>>
>>
>> There is a difference though. Obviouosy Nadal is improving as we
>> speak playing on clay.
>
> Funny how Nadal always miraculously improves on clay. Maybe he just isn't as good on the other surfaces?

Of course he isn't.
But he's pretty much good on HC masking 7 finals there.

The thing is, when Nadal brings himself into form and accumulates
enough confidence it's easier for him to translate, not just
great, but champion-like play to other surfaces.


He's just most extreme in that regard, but all guys from this era
are similar in that way.

[Court_1]

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 4:21:56 PM UTC-4, SliceAndDice wrote:

> > But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
>
> Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense.
> He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off.

Well to be fair, he was always at his best on clay. He looks a level higher on clay than he did at IW and Miami. Everything just seems to be clicking for him on clay at the moment.

> Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.

I agree.

[Court_1]

In order to take three sets off Nadal at the FO, Djokovic has to be in excellent form at his best otherwise advantage Nadal IMO. Let's be honest, when Djokovic beat Nadal at the FO 2015 Nadal the clay goat was unrecognizable. Things could change in the next few weeks but at the moment I'm not feeling a Djokovic FO win.

[RaspingDrive]

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 10:01:04 PM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
> SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> > On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 8:30:02 PM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
> >> SliceAndDice <vish...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> >> > On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:00:29 PM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
> >> >> But can Federer beat Nadal in best of five at the FO? I'd be astounded if he could do that.
> >> >
> >> > Probably not, especially not without the clay practice. But seeing how Nadal is on a tear on his favorite surface should put to rest any of the "Nadal is a shadow of his former self" nonsense. He may not be at his best level but he is definitely not that far off. Federer should be feeling very good about his new game plan that has resulted in 3 victories, two of them pretty resounding, against this Nadal.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> There is a difference though. Obviouosy Nadal is improving as we
> >> speak playing on clay.
> >
> > Funny how Nadal always miraculously improves on clay. Maybe he just isn't as good on the other surfaces?
>
>
> Of course he isn't.
> But he's pretty much good on HC masking 7 finals there.
>
> The thing is, when Nadal brings himself into form and accumulates
> enough confidence it's easier for him to translate, not just
> great, but champion-like play to other surfaces.

3 out of 7 is probably poor returns for champion-like play, since seven itself is not great to start with. He enters few finals and the conversion rate is less than 50%. Stan enters two finals and winning percent is 100, that perhaps would be champion's play.

[John Liang]

That does not alter the fact that there is five weeks for all the guys to get themselves into form. I am not arguing against Nadal's form but the notion that there is not enough time for others to run into form. Peaking early can also become a problem, someone peak too early can suddenly run cold when the real tournament comes around, someone who showed little or no form can suddenly run hot for two weeks and win a slam, it happens a lot in slam. Wawrinka's three slam wins came in such a fashion, Stan had absolutely no lead up form going into 2015 FO and 2016 USO and won both.

[*skriptis]

John Liang <jlia...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

That's silly. Wawrinka lost a tight two setter vs rafa 76 76 I
believe just before that AO he won. He never won a set vs rafa
but that last match tells you he was approaching.

He also had couple of close matches in previous HC slams vs djokovic.
So it's not that he just appeared out of nowhere. He was not
winning anything but he was on the rise.

Djokovic and Murray aren't. Everything is possible, but
realistically there isn't enough time for djokovic or murray.


It's May already, and they're yet to play a tough opponent in a
big event. And they can't meet anyone for the next two weeks,
until Madrid. So it's going to be almost June before even they
get to play vs other tough guys, let alone beating them. And wins
are necessary for the top guys and their confidence in this era.
Federer admitted himself at AO saying it helped him that he
avoided Nadal and losing to him.

So, since Djokovic and even Murray have been out for so long and
not even playing against very best, the odds of everything
suddenly starting clicking for them are not that
great.

Sure Nadal could get injured, few seeds go out, etc, and Murray or
Djokovic winning FO vs Goffin or Thiem or against each other is
conceivable. But that's not the point.


Are they ready to take on Rafa and could they beat him in a
nailbreaker at FO after not even playing tough matches and not
winning such matches?
Imo, no.


Djokovic might scare the shit out of Rafa's for a set and a half,
like in that USO 13 final, or FO 12, but just like then, Nadal's
dominance in tune ups before slams tells you he has the upper
hand.

[John Liang]

On a extremely slow indoor hard court, I am sure that is slower than AO's court in 2014. My point still stand, strip. Wawrinka has little lead up form in 2015 FO he made 1 semi in 3 major clay court warm up and won 3 matches in the other 3 tune ups he played. At 2016 USO he came in losing 2nd round at Wimbledon, lost the semi in Canadian master and second round at Cincci.

>
> He also had couple of close matches in previous HC slams vs djokovic.
> So it's not that he just appeared out of nowhere. He was not
> winning anything but he was on the rise.

Well, he was in the top 8 from 2013, and where did I say he appear out of nowhere but he certainly wasn't the one you expect to hold up the trophy at the end of AO 2014, FO 2015 and USO 2016 base on the form he had leading into those tournaments.

[John Liang]

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 10:01:03 PM UTC+10, *skriptis wrote:

Well, base on what Wawrinka did in 2015 FO and 2016 USO players can definitely get into form with in very short time frame and it is not impossible for that to happen.

>
> Sure Nadal could get injured, few seeds go out, etc, and Murray or
> Djokovic winning FO vs Goffin or Thiem or against each other is
> conceivable. But that's not the point.
>
>
> Are they ready to take on Rafa and could they beat him in a
> nailbreaker at FO after not even playing tough matches and not
> winning such matches?

Has Nadal played anybody in a tough match in winning two tournaments ?

> Imo, no.
>
>
> Djokovic might scare the shit out of Rafa's for a set and a half,
> like in that USO 13 final, or FO 12, but just like then, Nadal's
> dominance in tune ups before slams tells you he has the upper
> hand.

Not really, nadal also won last years' MC and Barcelona, but he ran out of steam at Rome and injured himself at FO, where was his upper hand in FO with his tune up form ? It is stupid right now to rule out anybody specially we all know most of the top guys other than Federer will play at least the next two major clay court events, I would rather leave my judgement on the form of players until after Rome.

[*skriptis]

But Wawrinka is extremely different player to any of the big 4.
Won 3 slams, 1 ATP1000. So 3 slams per ATP1000.

Big 4 won 47 slams and 99 ATP1000s. So they average 0.5 slams per
every ATP1000 they win. That's a 6 times worse than Wawrinka.


If they're not winning ATP1000s they're much less likely to win slams.

Take a 2017, look no further.
Who won masters?
Federer, Federer, Nadal. Who played AO final?


In this era confidence is everything.

[*skriptis]

He's played 5 finals already, every final is a big match in a way
and he certainly faced more opponents and tough ones than
Djokovic or Murray who barely played anything in 2017.

> Not really, nadal also won last years' MC and Barcelona, but he ran out of steam at Rome and injured himself at FO, where was his upper hand in FO with his tune up form ? It is stupid right now to rule out anybody specially we all know most of the top guys other than Federer will play at least the next two major clay court events, I would rather leave my judgement on the form of players until after Rome.

That's the option I said it's possible, getting a injury. But
without that happening, Murray and Djokovic are too much behind
him right now. FO seems too for them to really catch up.


Remember djokovic was playing well last year, minus the monte
Carlo vesely loss and Murray too was already in monte Carlo
battling Nadal losing in three, beating him in Madrid etc.


Those two are nowhere to be seen both right now, and in this year
as well.
Otoh imo Nadal looks to play with more confidence and is more
relaxed on court than last year.

[John Liang]

Well, Federer just won AO this year with no tournament play this year. How many weeks did player get on grass court season to be ready for Wimbledon ? Most of them play just 1 tournament, some two. From here onward there are two major warm ups for FO and then there is at least four matches to get into form for most of the leading players to get into some form. The idea that 2 weeks of practice, 2 weeks of warm up tournament and another week at FO is not enough time to be ready is just plain stupid.

>
> Big 4 won 47 slams and 99 ATP1000s. So they average 0.5 slams per
> every ATP1000 they win. That's a 6 times worse than Wawrinka.
>
>
> If they're not winning ATP1000s they're much less likely to win slams.

They only played 1 master series event on clay and there are two more to go.

[John Liang]

Too much behind ? In term of match practice yes but 5 weeks is a lot of time to get into form.

>
>
> Remember djokovic was playing well last year, minus the monte
> Carlo vesely loss and Murray too was already in monte Carlo
> battling Nadal losing in three, beating him in Madrid etc.

Remember Djokovic has not played since MC so we need to see what sort of form he will be in at Madrid and Rome.

[*skriptis]

Of course. Let's wait.
But as of know, predicting from this point and having an insight
about these these guys, and how do they play and react, I don't
believe Djokovic or Murray.

[*skriptis]

But Federer build up his confidence by not playing with anyone and
not losing any matches before AO. Especially against Nadal. He
himself admitted it was a key thing for him.

[Court_1]

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 7:02:27 AM UTC-4, John Liang wrote:

> > > > Only Nadal can harm himself now by overplaying or injuring himself.
> >
> > In order to take three sets off Nadal at the FO, Djokovic has to be in excellent form at his best otherwise advantage Nadal IMO. Let's be honest, when Djokovic beat Nadal at the FO 2015 Nadal the clay goat was unrecognizable. Things could change in the next few weeks but at the moment I'm not feeling a Djokovic FO win.
>
> That does not alter the fact that there is five weeks for all the guys to get themselves into form. I am not arguing against Nadal's form but the notion that there is not enough time for others to run into form. Peaking early can also become a problem, someone peak too early can suddenly run cold when the real tournament comes around, someone who showed little or no form can suddenly run hot for two weeks and win a slam, it happens a lot in slam. Wawrinka's three slam wins came in such a fashion, Stan had absolutely no lead up form going into 2015 FO and 2016 USO and won both.

I agree with you that it could happen that Djokovic gets himself into form in time to win the FO but I doubt he will. Stan is a completely different type of example as Stan isn't consistent winning tournaments week after week. He can go into a slam and tune-up his form as the slam goes along.

Djokovic and Nadal are huge momentum players. They need to accumulate lots of wins and build confidence. The reality is that Djokovic has won nothing substantial in almost a year whereas Nadal has had a strong 2017 making final after final and winning two tournaments thus far on his beloved clay. A confident Nadal going into the FO is almost impossible to beat. We'll see if someone can stop him this year and we'll see how Djokovic does in Madrid and Rome.

[bob]

a lot easier to have no fear off a shorter flatter ball than nadal's
shots of his prime.

bob

[Court_1]

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 7:36:55 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 12:50:46 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
>

> >On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 6:04:24 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> >
> >> that's absolutely right. his FH is far weaker than it used to be. (1)
> >> many more errors (2) far less topspin.
> >
> >But in the AO final Nadal's fh was excellent. It wasn't as good at IW and Miami.
> >Federer won the AO because he went for it in the fifth set and had no fear. There is no question that Fed's improved bh and his lack of fear can get the job done vs Nadal(off clay at least.)
>
> a lot easier to have no fear off a shorter flatter ball than nadal's
> shots of his prime.
>
> bob

At the AO Nadal's fh was working very well. He was up a break in the fifth and if he won the AO 2017, we wouldn't be hearing this "Nadal out of form" argument from you. The AO match could have been won by either player, it was that close. It`s not like Federer won in straights or four. The match went on until the bitter end and Federer played better than Nadal at the very end and was going for broke. Federer broke his previous pattern. That`s why Federer won.

Nadal`s forehand on clay is looking lethal again and he has improved his backhand and serve. You can`t continue with the Nadal is out of form nonsense if Nadal keeps making finals and more importantly winning titles. You`ll sound foolish.

[bob]

On Mon, 1 May 2017 16:46:27 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
<olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 7:36:55 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 12:50:46 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
>>
>> >On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 6:04:24 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>> >
>> >> that's absolutely right. his FH is far weaker than it used to be. (1)
>> >> many more errors (2) far less topspin.
>> >
>> >But in the AO final Nadal's fh was excellent. It wasn't as good at IW and Miami.
>> >Federer won the AO because he went for it in the fifth set and had no fear. There is no question that Fed's improved bh and his lack of fear can get the job done vs Nadal(off clay at least.)
>>
>> a lot easier to have no fear off a shorter flatter ball than nadal's
>> shots of his prime.
>>
>> bob
>
>At the AO Nadal's fh was working very well.

i mentioned the day of the AO final that nadal was hitting flatter
harder balls, something uncharacteristic. it wasn't his style, wasn't
his best strategy. never was. and it plays right into federer's
strength.

> He was up a break in the fifth and if he won the AO 2017, we wouldn't be hearing this "Nadal out of form" argument from you. The AO match could have been won by either player, it was that close. It`s not like Federer won in straights or four. The match went on until the bitter end and Federer played better than Nadal at the very end and was going for broke. Federer broke his previous pattern. That`s why Federer won.
>Nadal`s forehand on clay is looking lethal again and he has improved his backhand and serve. You can`t continue with the Nadal is out of form nonsense if Nadal keeps making finals and more importantly winning titles. You`ll sound foolish.

ok maybe nadal's playing great tennis this week, i can't say, haven't
watched.

but he looked so-so in that MC final VS that guy with a 137-158 ATP
record.

bob