Sports Illustrated „Top 100 Female Athletes“

[Calimero]

https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/women-si100.htm

From 2000:
1. Jackie Joyner (USA)
2. Babe Didrickson (USA)
3. Billie Jean King (USA)
4. Sonja Henie (NOR/USA)
5. Martina Navratilova (CZE/USA)
6. Chris Evert (USA)
7. Bonnie Blair (USA)
8. Wilma Rudolph (USA)
9. Nadia Comaneci (ROM)
10. Tracy Caulkins (USA)
11. Florence Griffith Joyner (USA)
12. Mia Hamm (USA)
13. Nancy Lopez (USA)
14. Steffi Graf (GER)
15. Cheryl Miller (USA)
...
...


BJ King #3, Navratilova #5, Evert #6, some „Bonnie Blair“ (?) #7, a „Nancy Lopez“ #13.
All of them Americans. Comaneci became a US citizen in 2001.

At least Steffi had already a US boyfriend in 2000. Otherwise ...

Lololol



Max

[The Iceberg]

LOL let me guess this list is made by an American!
They clearly forgot Bruce Jenner too! :)

[soccerfan777]

Mia Hamm...womens soccer? Who gives a fuck about women's soccer...lol

[Calimero]

> ...


Sports Illustrated? You think so? What did lead you to that conclusion?


Max

[soccerfan777]

The same magazine which thinks it speaks for all Americans when it infamously had this cover.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ivan-Lendl-Tennis-SIGNED-Sports-Illustrated-9-15-86-COA-/251479911942

Why the fuck would Lendl sign it? Was it sort of his way of saying "Fuck you"... lol

[MBDunc]

These U.S lists are funny but now then....

Nancy Lopez? It is exactly like naming Greg Norman as the greatest golfer ever... (few majors - 3 in her case - and a lot of runner-ups and wouldacouldashoulda)

.mikko

[soccerfan777]

Who is Nancy Lopez? Is she a golfer? And how is golf a sport? ;-) Curling is way better.

[Calimero]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 3:56:30 PM UTC+2, Calimero wrote:
> https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/women-si100.htm
>
> From 2000:
> 1. Jackie Joyner (USA)
> 2. Babe Didrickson (USA)
> 3. Billie Jean King (USA)
> 4. Sonja Henie (NOR/USA)
> 5. Martina Navratilova (CZE/USA)
> 6. Chris Evert (USA)
> 7. Bonnie Blair (USA)
> 8. Wilma Rudolph (USA)
> 9. Nadia Comaneci (ROM)
> 10. Tracy Caulkins (USA)
> 11. Florence Griffith Joyner (USA)
> 12. Mia Hamm (USA)
> 13. Nancy Lopez (USA)
> 14. Steffi Graf (GER)
> 15. Cheryl Miller (USA)
> ...
> ...

"The athletes were selected by Sports Illustrated For Women, Sports Illustrated and CNN/SI editors, writers and correspondents"

Bow to the flag!
MAGA!!

Seriously, this bigotry is stunning, just stunning ...



Max

[Calimero]

Evert at #6 and Steffi at #14.

They MUST have doubles "factored in" ...

LOLOL

MAGA!!


Max

[heyg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 8:19:00 AM UTC-4, Calimero wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 3:56:30 PM UTC+2, Calimero wrote:
> > https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/women-si100.htm
> >
> > From 2000:
> > 1. Jackie Joyner (USA)
> > 2. Babe Didrickson (USA)
> > 3. Billie Jean King (USA)
> > 4. Sonja Henie (NOR/USA)
> > 5. Martina Navratilova (CZE/USA)
> > 6. Chris Evert (USA)
> > 7. Bonnie Blair (USA)
> > 8. Wilma Rudolph (USA)
> > 9. Nadia Comaneci (ROM)
> > 10. Tracy Caulkins (USA)
> > 11. Florence Griffith Joyner (USA)
> > 12. Mia Hamm (USA)
> > 13. Nancy Lopez (USA)
> > 14. Steffi Graf (GER)
> > 15. Cheryl Miller (USA)
> > ...
> > ...
>
>
> "The athletes were selected by Sports Illustrated For Women, Sports Illustrated and CNN/SI editors, writers and correspondents"
>

"who considered the athletes' on-field performance and achievements plus the athlete's contribution to women's sports."

It's the "plus" that hurts Graf and explains why Billie Jean is so high. Graf was an amazing singles player, but that's really it compared to other players who built and transformed the sport. Honestly, if a list has any criteria other than "greatest singles player" then Graf is out of the running.

[StephenJ]

Yes, Max considers it bizarro that MN and BJK are ahead of Graf in
tennis lists from 2000 or so, but truth is, if you include doubles, or
impact on the sport, than both can be ranked ahead of Graf then or now,
so you have to do what you did, which is read the criteria being used.


--
for the total eradication of the imperialists, the Chinese
people are willing to endure the first U.S. nuclear
strike. All it is is a big pile of people dying.

- Mao Tse-Tung, 1958

[Calimero]

How to humiliate these US dumbbells here in RST with ease in seconds?

Like this:

1) One singles slam is worth at least 10 doubles slams, most would say even 20 doubles slams or more (eg. Sabatini with 1 singles and 1 doubles slams is greater at least in non-patriotic-American eyes than Shriver with 21 doubles slams).

2) Why is Evert at #6 in this patriotic list and Steffi at #14? Tell us about Evert‘s great doubles career, lol ...

3) Steffi brought more fans to the sport world-wide than all those three Americans combined. BJ King herself said recently that „Steffi was the first international superstar“. I agree that BJK did a lot for the sport off-court but to suggest that Navratilova or Evert had more impact than Steffi is beyond asinine and even beyond your and your comrades‘ usual bigotry.

4) Steffi made more off-court promotions in Europe than your three Americans combined.


MAGA!!


Max

[StephenJ]

Max, you continue to embarrass yourself. What part of "plus the
athlete's contribution to women's sports" didn't sink in?

You can keep chasing ghosts if you like, but it's pretty darn sad. :(

[*skriptis]

StephenJ <sjo...@cox.com> Wrote in message:

I agree. Having BJK as influential or listing her as someone who
made huge impact totally makes sense but I have a problem with
positive description of her influence.

E.g. was Hitler one of the most influential persons ever? Sure he was.
Was he positive? Nope.


BJK instilled social justice themes into sports and ruined it. In
no other universe would the end result "women stealing money from
the men's tour" be considered positive as it is considered now.


The situation is unheard of.
Do male basketball players subsidize female basketball players?
Soccer? NFL? It never happens nor it could ever happen, but for
some reason people have been brainwashed into believing that it's
the duty of ATP to subsidize WTA.

It's just ridiculous.


How about we extra tax female hookers and redistribute the money
to give male hookers the same?

Same job, equal pay, no?


--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Calimero]

> ....


What part of

„Steffi brought more fans to the sport world-wide than all those three Americans combined. BJ King herself said recently that „Steffi was the first international superstar“. I agree that BJK did a lot for the sport off-court but to suggest that Navratilova or Evert had more impact than Steffi is beyond asinine and even beyond your and your comrades‘ usual bigotry.“

and

„Steffi made more off-court promotions in Europe than your three Americans combined.“

didn‘t sink in?

BJ King herself! What a traitor!!! Must have been turned by the BND ...

Lolol

MAGA!!


Max

[heyg...@gmail.com]

BJK is a great promoter...ask her about anyone and she'll say something great about them.

[jdeluise]

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:24:05 -0700, heyguys00 wrote:

> BJK is a great promoter...ask her about anyone and she'll say something
> great about them.

Even Margaret Court?

[heyg...@gmail.com]

lol...about her tennis, sure.

[Calimero]

But she is right.
From 1986 (when Steffi broke through) until 1999 women‘s tennis changed dramatically. Before that it was followed in the USA, Australia and the UK but not very much anywhere else. TV coverage in Europe was minimal, non-existent in Asia. More than 50 percent of the top 100 tennis women were US Americans.

With Steffi came the change. Here was a feminine, graceful and lovely young woman who became „the first international superstar“ of the game. Who was recognized everywhere in the world even when she only visited museums or went shopping in the city. Who overtook the manly and homely US top players. TV stations world-wide took over, bringing the game to hundreds of millions viewers world-wide. Steffi was acknowledged by male tennis players like no one before or after her.

And here an American bigot claims Steffi didn‘t contribute to women‘s sport .... incredible, simply incredible.

MAGA!!


Max

[bob]

maybe now. but we all know the goal posts have changed. davis cup,
doubles, masters - it's all varied since 1970s. we've debated it for
yrs and debated how it affected current day.

>2) Why is Evert at #6 in this patriotic list and Steffi at #14? Tell us about Evert壮 great doubles career, lol ...

evert played in a time of a tennis boom, when the world was really
just starting to watch tennis. borg, mcenroe, connors, evert - even
nastase and gerulaitis. they have name recognition.

but no tennis fan, no american who watches tennis, had graf below
evert in terms of tennis achievement.

>3) Steffi brought more fans to the sport world-wide than all those three Americans combined.

they laid the path for steffi to walk on. not just americans, but the
70s time. steffi is a shy introvert, which is fine btw, but doesn't
put her as a household name for non tennis fans.

bob

[bob]

i thnk max is posting from an asylum right now as a matter of fact. i
thought i was bad when federer hit 15 but this is ridiculous. carrying
on like a whiny kid, and at the same time brining all other elements
into it, not even related to tennis.

bob

[bob]

must be all you xenophobic germans.

bob

[StephenJ]

Max, that's not a valid description, it's just your dunkoff German
version of events.

And it doesn't even matter, all that matters is that the voters thought
BJK contributed more than Graf (which she surely did), and that's a
valid basis for their vote.

You really have to stop acting so dumb around here. It's tiresome.

[StephenJ]

Yes. And we school him over and over and yet it doesn't sink in? He
probably has a decent job over in the Rheinland, so he's not objectively
dumb, but Graf losing her GOAT-hood has completely unhinged him.

[Calimero]

„Steffi was the first international superstar.“ (Billie Jean King, USA, 2018)

> And it doesn't even matter, all that matters is that the voters thought
> BJK contributed more than Graf (which she surely did), and that's a
> valid basis for their vote.
>

Voters?
What are you blabbering about?


Max

[StephenJ]

Stop Max. Being the first inter-super star doesn't mean you had 1/10 the
impact that BJK had. She literally founded the WTA tour!

You are one tiresome dunkoff.

[Calimero]

With several other players. She was great in self-promotion and played the US media and their gullible US consumers like a fiddle.

Yes, she contributed to the first steps of professional women's tennis. But this was a mostly US affair in the first years, with a little bit Australia, South Africa and UK in it. Don't forget that even in 1983 (!) most top 50 players were US Americans. Add playes from Australia, U.K, Canada, South Africa and there were almost 75 % native English-speakers!

With Steffi all that changed within a few years. She was a trailblazer, the "first global superstar".
While BJ King contributed to the first step Steffi brought women's tennis to a different plane. Yes, especially heterosexual men tuned in! No wonder ...

I say it again, no other player in the history of women's tennis brought more fans to the game than the German beauty. I know, that tears you apart, but that's the way things were and are.

And she was world-famous!
Couldn't go shopping in Paris or Tokyo without a huge crowd of fans and on-lookers gathering. Serena could walk the streets of those cities and virtually no one would recognize her.


Max

[bob]

steffi was the 1st international tennis superstar? before evert, king
herself, navratilova? lol

bob

[Calimero]

The first GLOBAL superstar. BJ King herself said that recently.
Steffi had a name recognition in India of about 90 % in India and 80 % in China at the end of her career.

To compare Evert, Navi, King (!) with Steffi in that department is ludicrous ... lol ...

In one hundred years from now no one will remember Evert, King, Navratilova or S. Williams. There is only ONE name people will mention when asked about women's tennis in the late 20th and early 21th century - Steffi Graf. The Golden Grand Slam! And especially her uniquely graceful and elegance style. People even in a 100 years will be fascinated how a person can move on a court like this when they watch the old videos.


Max

[bob]

steffi was the benefit of the times with a far more spread media
presence, far more TV, even the early internet.

still, evert, connors, borg, mcenroe were the beginnings of int'l
stardom for tennis players.

>To compare Evert, Navi, King (!) with Steffi in that department is ludicrous ... lol ...
>In one hundred years from now no one will remember Evert, King, Navratilova or S. Williams.

evert, navratilova, borg, mcenroe: any tennis star after 1985 owes
them their life.

>There is only ONE name people will mention when asked about women's tennis in the late 20th and early 21th century - Steffi Graf. The Golden Grand Slam! And especially her uniquely graceful and elegance style. People even in a 100 years will be fascinated how a person can move on a court like this when they watch the old videos.

you're a sick fella max. but fun.

bob

[StephenJ]

All the players give King the most credit. She was there at ground zero,
Graf's impact wasn't 1/10 as great.

Heck, Reagan had far more impact than Graf. The 'ova' invasion that
changed tennis came with the fall of the Berlin wall.

[Whisper]

I'm largely staying out of these discussions as they change nothing.
It's reality Serena has 23 slams & Graf 22, & Graf has calendar slam &
Serena does not.

Graf fans are sore that Serena has won more slams, & Serena fans are
sore Graf has calendar slam.

These arguments will never end & they really are a waste of time. If
we're all honest I'm sure everyone would take a calendar slam in a 22
slam mix over 23 slams.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[StephenJ]

On 4/26/2018 6:54 AM, Whisper wrote:
> On 26/04/2018 3:40 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 4/23/2018 8:26 PM, bob wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> How to humiliate these US dumbbells here in RST with ease in seconds?
>>>>
>>>> Max, you continue to embarrass yourself. What part of "plus the
>>>> athlete's contribution to women's sports" didn't sink in?
>>>>
>>>> You can keep chasing ghosts if you like, but it's pretty darn sad. :(
>>>
>>> i thnk max is posting from an asylum right now as a matter of fact. i
>>> thought i was bad when federer hit 15 but this is ridiculous. carrying
>>> on like a whiny kid, and at the same time brining all other elements
>>> into it, not even related to tennis.
>>
>> Yes. And we school him over and over and yet it doesn't sink in? He
>> probably has a decent job over in the Rheinland, so he's not
>> objectively dumb, but Graf losing her GOAT-hood has completely
>> unhinged him.
>>
>> :(
>>
>
>
> I'm largely staying out of these discussions as they change nothing.
> It's reality Serena has 23 slams & Graf 22, & Graf has calendar slam &
> Serena does not.
>
> Graf fans are sore that Serena has won more slams,

That's very true.

> & Serena fans are
> sore Graf has calendar slam.

No Serena fan is sore that Graf and Court have CYGS and Serena doesn't.
I'm as a big a Serena fan as there is and it doesn't bother me at all. I
just jumped for joy when she won slam #23 because it was clear that made
her open-era GOAT, and she has been universally acclaimed as such.

That's the bottom line: Your opinion or mine nothwithstanding, the
tennis world regards Serena as greater than Graf. So the only
ineffectual words spoken here are by max - he can talk about "golden
grand slam" until the cows come home, but Serena is GOAT anyway.

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

[Guypers]

Healthy Seles would have won 7 more slams, so in effect Graf has only 15, rank below Evert!!

[soccerfan777]

LOL... the battle was won when Serena lost to Vinci! Graf fans have been celebrating ever since.

You can pretend it did not matter... but you know it did.... bwahahahahaha

[StephenJ]

You and Max can argue all day that Serena losing to Vinci should mean
that Graf should be regarded as greater than Serena. You may have a point.

But don't confuse that question, the "should be" question, with the "is"
question. Because regardless of your opinion, there's no doubt that in
the tennis community as a whole, Serena is regarded as the GOAT over Graf.

It's just the way it is. Now, maybe if you and Max post 1,000,000 more
times about Vinci or about how graceful Steffi was or whatever, you will
change enough minds to change that consensus?

Good Luck with that! LMAO!

BYE BYE #2 STEFFI !!!!

[soccerfan777]

Yes, among casual tennis fans. But experts are smarter. Also many experts would say Helen Wills or Suzanne Lenglen are a greater choice than any player from the 60s and on. Most would not rate Court, King in Tier 1.

Even for me... I would day the absolute best Tier 1 would be Lenglen, Wills and Graf, primarily because they dominated both Wimbledon and FO (all of them won them both at least 4 times each). None of the others have done that.

>
> It's just the way it is. Now, maybe if you and Max post 1,000,000 more
> times about Vinci or about how graceful Steffi was or whatever, you will
> change enough minds to change that consensus?

Who cares about consensus among casual tennis fans who have no knowledge of tennis history. 95% of casual tennis fans do not know Lenglen existed.

[StephenJ]

Can you name an expert who has Graf > Serena?

[Calimero]

Lol, of course!
The difference between ONE Golden Grand Slam and ZERO Golden Grand Slams is yuuuge compared to the difference between 23 slams and 22 slams.

Jaros knows that of course. And still he wants all of us to bow to the flag.


Max

[Calimero]

Healthy Steffi would have won 10 more slams, so in effect she has 32, far ahead of all pretenders!


Max

[soccerfan777]

Roger Federer and Ivan Lendl. I trust them more than any other assperts.

[StephenJ]

Except ... Lendl said he 'admires' Steffi the most, not that she's the
GOAT. Federer? When did he ever say it?

I think you've come up empty ...

[soccerfan777]

Admiring the most = considering as GOAT

[Whisper]

Good point. Dominating Wimbledon & FO is a strong goat marker as the 2
surfaces couldn't be more different. It's not the only marker, but very
big. It's why many still consider Borg right up there. What he
achieved at Wim/FO despite quitting at his peak at age 25 is pretty
remarkable. He nearly won FO/Wim combo 4 years in a row. Indeed had he
won the 2 tie-breaks in 2nd & 3rd sets of 1981 Wimbledon final he woulda
beaten Mac in straights & done just that. To this day he's the only guy
to win FO/Wim combo 3 times, let alone 3 yrs in a row.

[Calimero]

There are two girls who managed to win the FO/Wim combo 4 times. Helen Wills-Moody and Steffi Graf.

And here is the zinger - Steffi added a USO title each time!!
Meaning she won the FO/Wim/USO combo 4 times!!! Three different surfaces!

In-cre-di-ble!!!!


Max

[Whisper]

> There are two girls who managed to win the FO/Wim combo 4 times. Helen Wills-Moody and Steffi Graf.
>
> And here is the zinger - Steffi added a USO title each time!!
> Meaning she won the FO/Wim/USO combo 4 times!!! Three different surfaces!
>
> In-cre-di-ble!!!!
>
>
> Max
>

It certainly is.

Graf did it 4 times (1988,1993,1995,1996)

Navratilova (1984) & Serena (2002) only did it once.

Nadal is the only man to ever do it (2010).


Graf also failed to enter AO in 1995 & 1996, so most likely left 2 more
calendar slams on the table.

[Whisper]

Also Serena failed to enter 2002 AO so maybe that was her big chance to
do it? Might have calmed her nerves in 20015 for a 2nd GS? Coulda/woulda.

[bob]

1-0=1
23-22=1

ask a german mathematician.

>Jaros knows that of course. And still he wants all of us to bow to the flag.

bob

[bob]

all i remember federer saying was that he wanted to dance with serena
after winning wimbledon. federer never said graf > serena.

bob

[soccerfan777]

You do know that 2002 was notoriously weak? Hingis skipped 2 slams and hardly played and would retire at the end of the year, Davenport was injured and skipped the first three slams. And Mary Pierce was having an extremely lousy year. Apart from Venus there was no one except Capriati.

Look at the top 10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_WTA_Tour#Rankings


Capriati finished the year 3rd and she won only 1 title which was the AO. So she basically flaked out immediately after the AO, just like Hingis.

And since AO 2002 final was between Hingis and Capriati, I see seriously doubt Serena would have beaten either at AO that year.

[soccerfan777]

Since Graf so comprehensively won AO 1994, she would have been favorite in 1995 and also 1996. Who would have stopped her there? Perhaps Seles in 1996? What about 1995?

[soccerfan777]

Borg was incredible no doubt about it. But no men was as versatile as Lenglen and Graf (won FO/Wim at least six times each) or Moody (won FO/Wim at least four times each). Moody played FO only 4 times or else she would have won more.

[Calimero]

Graf won FO 88, Wim 88, USO 88.
And FO 93, Wim 93, USO 93.
And FO 95, Wim 95, USO 95.
And FO 96, Wim 96, USO 96.

4 times 3 slams within 4 months on 3 different surfaces.

Isn‘t that woman simply FANTASTIC?


Max