McEnroe on Henin : “the best single-handed backhand in the women's or men's game.”

[Whisper]

https://www.tennisfame.com/hall-of-famers/inductees/justine-henin/


This adds another dimension to the men v women argument. While it's
true that no woman has ever been the best 'tennis player' ever in
absolute terms, it's arguable that one woman at least has the best ever
bh stroke.

Many won't agree with this, & to be fair to Mac he made this comment
before Stan the man really appeared, but she at least is in the
conversation. That's remarkable when you think about it no?


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[ahonkan]

On Friday, 30 June 2017 14:28:34 UTC+5:30, Whisper wrote:
>
> Many won't agree with this, & to be fair to Mac he made this comment
> before Stan the man really appeared, but she at least is in the
> conversation. That's remarkable when you think about it no?

No, not at all. Mac is the ultimate fickle commentator who routinely
contradicts himself. His 'favourite player' changes every day. His
opinions don't mean a thing. You yourself have put him down whenever he
said something nice about Fed. So why should this be any different?

[Pelle Svanslos]

On 30/06/2017 11.58, Whisper wrote:
>
>
> https://www.tennisfame.com/hall-of-famers/inductees/justine-henin/
>
>
> This adds another dimension to the men v women argument. While it's
> true that no woman has ever been the best 'tennis player' ever in
> absolute terms, it's arguable that one woman at least has the best ever
> bh stroke.
>
> Many won't agree with this, & to be fair to Mac he made this comment
> before Stan the man really appeared, but she at least is in the
> conversation. That's remarkable when you think about it no?

It's just Mac shooting off. He does a lot of it. Let's first see how her
BH stands up against Rafa.

[John Liang]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 6:58:34 PM UTC+10, Whisper wrote:
> https://www.tennisfame.com/hall-of-famers/inductees/justine-henin/
>
>
> This adds another dimension to the men v women argument. While it's
> true that no woman has ever been the best 'tennis player' ever in
> absolute terms, it's arguable that one woman at least has the best ever
> bh stroke.

There is nothing remarkable just overhyping one aspect of Henin's game.

Best one handed backhand from a female tennis player in the last 25 or 30 years, yes. but there were a lot of great single handed backhand from many male tennis players include Lendl, Edberg, Becker, Sampras, Stich, Korda, Kuerten and now Stan and Federer. I just don't see how Henin's backhand put her above these crowd of single handed backhand players. As a matter of fact I don't see Stan stand out as having the best single handed backhand in the last 25-30 years.

[The Iceberg]

Gasquet proved he's got the best single handed backhand in the past 25 years when he and Stan had that "backhand off" at Wimbledon a couple
of years ago.

You're only saying that about Henin cos you're very very very sexist! <roll eyes>

[John Liang]

Whatever big mac or whopper. I don't think Henin's backhand stand out against other one handed backhand from a lot of male players that also had great single hander.

[soccerfan777]

Henin backhand was quite erratic. When on fire she was fun to watch, but it could go off the boil in important matches

[PeteWasLucky]

Henin needed time to swing on her backhand. Looked great on clay and okay on HC. But didn't help her on grass.

[Gracchus]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 4:48:13 AM UTC-7, soccerfan777 wrote:

> Henin backhand was quite erratic. When on fire she was fun to watch, but it could go off the boil in important matches

I'd rather have a backhand like that than a reliable boring one like Wilander's.

[Carey]

Mandlikova. Perfect balance, nearly always.

Henin hit off her back foot too much.

[Gracchus]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 8:09:41 AM UTC-7, Carey wrote:

> Mandlikova. Perfect balance, nearly always.

> Henin hit off her back foot too much.

Yeah, I loved Mandlikova's backhand. It was like one flowing motion from backswing to follow-through. She didn't telegraph whether it would be slice or topspin. I think her backhand was less dependent on perfect timing than Henin's or Mauresmo's.

[SliceAndDice]

I prefer Mandlikova's backhand too. Another backhand that is underrated is Sabatini's. An absolute beauty.

[SliceAndDice]

More hyperbole. I would like to see her handle Nadal's loopers.

[Court_1]

The same John McEnroe who said this about Serena Williams two years ago:

"I think Serena is one of the all-time greatest athletes, period. Man or woman."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/34217634

Now, he's trying to sell a book so he's contradicting himself (as usual) regarding Serena. The man has no shame.

Henin has the best single-handed bh man or woman, lol.

I was never a Henin fan.

[Carey]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 8:16:25 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:

> Yeah, I loved Mandlikova's backhand. It was like one flowing motion from backswing to follow-through. She didn't telegraph whether it would be slice or topspin. I think her backhand was less dependent on perfect timing than Henin's or Mauresmo's.

Good description of Hana M's backhand.

[Gracchus]

His remarks are hyperbole of course, but Henin did have a beautiful backhand, and especially when one considers her physical limitations, impressive results. Better than your adored Sharapova, and Henin retired years ago.

[Court_1]

My adored Sharapova? You must have me mixed up with Raja?

I was never much of a Henin fan for a few reasons. I found her to be a bit of a cheater w/ a bit of an attitude. Each to his or her own. And I might be in the minority but I tend to prefer the aesthetics of a two-handed bh. I do find Federer's bh beautiful though.

[Gracchus]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 10:54:55 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:
> > On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 9:19:41 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
> > > The same John McEnroe who said this about Serena Williams two years ago:
> > >
> > > "I think Serena is one of the all-time greatest athletes, period. Man or woman."
> > >
> > > http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/34217634
> > >
> > > Now, he's trying to sell a book so he's contradicting himself (as usual) regarding Serena. The man has no shame.
> > >
> > > Henin has the best single-handed bh man or woman, lol.
> > >
> > > I was never a Henin fan.
> >
> > His remarks are hyperbole of course, but Henin did have a beautiful backhand, and especially when one considers her physical limitations, impressive results. Better than your adored Sharapova, and Henin retired years ago.
>
> My adored Sharapova? You must have me mixed up with Raja?

Well you're always going on about her "tremendous fighting spirit" and rooting for her against nearly everyone. I think Raja is fixated on certain other aspects of Sharapova. :)

> I was never much of a Henin fan for a few reasons. I found her to be a bit of a cheater w/ a bit of an attitude.

So she cheated Serena a little. That's ok. ;) What other terrible things did she do--deny that whiner Mauresmo her moment of victory? Attitude for sure, like many players. Sometimes she was less than gracious but not always.

> Each to his or her own. And I might be in the minority but I tend to prefer the aesthetics of a two-handed bh. I do find Federer's bh beautiful though.

I don't see any aesthetics in the two-handed backhand. In general, it's a more stable shot, and obviously can be tremendously effective. But IMO it's about as elegant as a monkey wrench.

[Court_1]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 2:03:43 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:

> I don't see any aesthetics in the two-handed backhand. In general, it's a more stable shot, and obviously can be tremendously effective. But IMO it's about as elegant as a monkey wrench.

Not to me. I find it very elegant. It's a personal thing. Remember I'm a Borg and Evert fan(they were both extremely graceful players.)

I even find Pipe Cleaner's bh to be a lovely looking shot. :)

[Gracchus]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 11:14:58 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 2:03:43 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:
>
> > I don't see any aesthetics in the two-handed backhand. In general, it's a more stable shot, and obviously can be tremendously effective. But IMO it's about as elegant as a monkey wrench.
>
> Not to me. I find it very elegant. It's a personal thing. Remember I'm a Borg and Evert fan(they were both extremely graceful players.)

They were graceful in a machine-like way. I saw their backhands as just very efficient tools. Same with Connors, even though he was one of my faves. But as you said, it's a personal thing.

> I even find Pipe Cleaner's bh to be a lovely looking shot. :)

Lovely? Hmmm.

[Patrick Kehoe]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 9:19:41 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:

Two nights ago on Colbert, McEnroe said Serena was perhaps the greatest athlete of all time, man or woman.

P

[SliceAndDice]

Serena did not ask him to leave her alone then? With all these unproveable assertions? :)

[Gracchus]

It's a really stupid thing to say. Especially since the qualities that make Serena a great champion don't even involve athleticism. But that's McEnroe. With him, everything has to be a superlative. Even if we were just talking about women's tennis--and not EVERY human athlete since the dawn of time--there are others that jump out right away as better athletes. Navratilova and Graf for starters. Serena may have passed their slam marks, but they still were better athletes.

[grif]

Fat Dave salutes you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsb3-I_7Hb8

[calim...@gmx.de]

Evert was very mechanical. Nothing graceful there.


Max

[Gracchus]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:58:44 PM UTC-7, calim...@gmx.de wrote:

> Evert was very mechanical. Nothing graceful there.

She's an example of what Laver called a "regimented player." Her father taught her a style with very simplified, reliable strokes and focused on building her mental strength. Her footwork and balance were good as a result, but IMO that's not the same thing as being graceful in the way that her contemporary Goolagong was for example.

[heyg...@gmail.com]

Nav and Graf are better athletes than Serena on average, but I'd take 2002 Serena against either in the decathlon--Serena has a better balance of upper and lower body strength than they do.

[ahonkan]

On Friday, 30 June 2017 23:24:55 UTC+5:30, Court_1 wrote:

> And I might be in the minority but I tend to prefer the aesthetics of a two-handed bh.

That's an oxymoron. 2-handed BH is anything but aesthetically pleasing.

[ahonkan]

On Friday, 30 June 2017 23:44:58 UTC+5:30, Court_1 wrote:

>
> Not to me. I find it very elegant. It's a personal thing. Remember I'm a Borg and Evert fan(they were both extremely graceful players.)

Yes, it's a personal thing. Borg & Evert were two guaranteed cures for
insomnia. The Borg - Lendl FO final was such a boring moonball-fest that
the Swedes easily passed the Euthanasia bill. The only matches as boring as
that one were the two Lendl - Wilander USO finals, the Sampras - Ivanisevic
Wimbledon final (boring doesn't have to be long!) & the Rafa - Djoker AO
final in 2012 (athletic isn't always exciting).

[Court_1]

For me, the two-handed backhand is a nicer looking shot. Borg, Evert, Agassi, Djokovic all have beautiful two-handed backhands IMO.

[Court_1]

On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 12:11:04 AM UTC-4, ahonkan wrote:
> On Friday, 30 June 2017 23:44:58 UTC+5:30, Court_1 wrote:
>
> >
> > Not to me. I find it very elegant. It's a personal thing. Remember I'm a Borg and Evert fan(they were both extremely graceful players.)
>
> Yes, it's a personal thing. Borg & Evert were two guaranteed cures for
> insomnia.

For YOU maybe, but definitely not for me.

>The Borg - Lendl FO final was such a boring moonball-fest that
> the Swedes easily passed the Euthanasia bill. The only matches as boring as
> that one were the two Lendl - Wilander USO finals, the Sampras - Ivanisevic
> Wimbledon final (boring doesn't have to be long!) & the Rafa - Djoker AO
> final in 2012 (athletic isn't always exciting).

I'm not talking about Borg-Lendl matches! I'm talking about Borg-McEnroe or Borg-Connors matches. Those were the best IMO.

Also, I don't think Nadal-Djokovic matches are boring. They have a real rivalry going. Djokovic-Murray matches boring or Nadal-Ferrer matches boring? Yes.

[John Liang]

IMO, single handed backhand is more versatile and when well produced by the likes of Federer, Lendl, Edberg, Kuerten, Sampars or even Henin is simply more beautiful to watch then any double hander.

[stephenJ]

Yep. And Graf was herky-jerky, while Henin was too muscular/intense, as
are the W sistas.

Really, there haven't been many "graceful" players in the open era, I
hate to say it but maybe the last was Hingis? Before her Goolagong?


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[stephenJ]

On 6/30/2017 2:22 PM, Gracchus wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 11:34:14 AM UTC-7, Patrick Kehoe wrote:
>> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 9:19:41 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
>>> The same John McEnroe who said this about Serena Williams two years ago:
>>>
>>> "I think Serena is one of the all-time greatest athletes, period. Man or woman."
>>>
>>> http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/34217634
>>>
>>> Now, he's trying to sell a book so he's contradicting himself (as usual) regarding Serena. The man has no shame.
>>>
>>> Henin has the best single-handed bh man or woman, lol.
>>>
>>> I was never a Henin fan.
>>
>> Two nights ago on Colbert, McEnroe said Serena was perhaps the greatest athlete of all time, man or woman.
>
> It's a really stupid thing to say. Especially since the qualities that make Serena a great champion don't even > >involve athleticism. But that's McEnroe. With him, everything has to be a superlative.

Yes, but maybe that's because Mac was so, and thus too, familiar with
it? I mean, consider his 1980 US semis match with Connors and then the
final vs Borg. Those may be the two most exciting, superlative, back to
back matches anyone has ever played, and they never even get talked about.

Mac was immersed in the concept so maybe tends to see it everywhere.

[ahonkan]

On Saturday, 1 July 2017 14:02:25 UTC+5:30, StephenJ wrote:

>
> Really, there haven't been many "graceful" players in the open era, I
> hate to say it but maybe the last was Hingis? Before her Goolagong?
>

I thought Novotna played elegantly.

[Bharath Purohit]

Check this out https://youtu.be/Th44HW0PMFo

[ahonkan]

On Saturday, 1 July 2017 00:52:46 UTC+5:30, Gracchus wrote:

> It's a really stupid thing to say. Especially since the qualities that make Serena a great champion don't even involve athleticism. But that's McEnroe. With him, everything has to be a superlative. Even if we were just talking about women's tennis--and not EVERY human athlete since the dawn of time--there are others that jump out right away as better athletes. Navratilova and Graf for starters. Serena may have passed their slam marks, but they still were better athletes.

Yes, Mac is the Donald Trump of commentators. Nothing but superlatives.

[Whisper]

I think 2 hands on the racket should be outlawed.

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[calim...@gmx.de]

On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 10:32:25 AM UTC+2, StephenJ wrote:
> On 6/30/2017 4:06 PM, Gracchus wrote:
> > On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:58:44 PM UTC-7, calim...@gmx.de wrote:
> >
> >> Evert was very mechanical. Nothing graceful there.
> >
> > She's an example of what Laver called a "regimented player." Her father taught her a style with very simplified, >reliable strokes and focused on building her mental strength. Her footwork and balance were good as a result, but >IMO that's not the same thing as being graceful in the way that her contemporary Goolagong was for example.
>
> Yep. And Graf was herky-jerky, while Henin was too muscular/intense, as
> are the W sistas.
>
> Really, there haven't been many "graceful" players in the open era, I
> hate to say it but maybe the last was Hingis? Before her Goolagong?
>
>

Graf "herky-jerky"? What is that supposed to mean?
Steffi was - by far - the most elegant player. Of course her perfect body helped. Her footwork was just stunning, her feet barely touching the ground. Like a Swan Lake dancer!


Max

[Whisper]

I find it as graceful as this;

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+jackhammer&qpvt=youtube+jackhammer&view=detail&mid=FA5EDF6C9AC4B6070FF7FA5EDF6C9AC4B6070FF7&FORM=VRDGAR

[stephenJ]

On 7/1/2017 4:34 AM, calim...@gmx.de wrote:
> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 10:32:25 AM UTC+2, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 6/30/2017 4:06 PM, Gracchus wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:58:44 PM UTC-7, calim...@gmx.de wrote:
>>>
>>>> Evert was very mechanical. Nothing graceful there.
>>>
>>> She's an example of what Laver called a "regimented player." Her father taught her a style with very simplified, >reliable strokes and focused on building her mental strength. Her footwork and balance were good as a result, but >IMO that's not the same thing as being graceful in the way that her contemporary Goolagong was for example.
>>
>> Yep. And Graf was herky-jerky, while Henin was too muscular/intense, as
>> are the W sistas.
>>
>> Really, there haven't been many "graceful" players in the open era, I
>> hate to say it but maybe the last was Hingis? Before her Goolagong?
>>
>>
>
>
> Graf "herky-jerky"? What is that supposed to mean?

Exactly what i said. There was a stop-start jerkiness to most of her
movements - serve, ground strokes, even foot movement. She lacked fluidity.

Not that this was a problem for her, all of those were very effective.
It just wasn't graceful as the term is understood.

[calim...@gmx.de]

Lacked fluidity??? Lol ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uxJLR-IzxEY

Esp. from 0:37 on. You simply can't move more fluidly.


Max

[stephenJ]

Graf wasn't 100% a herky-jerky robot, she had her moments of fluidity.
Heck, even Lendl did. But by and large, she had a lot of hitches in her
strokes and movement.

[calim...@gmx.de]

What is it that makes it so difficult for a certain type of Americans to recognize a German tennis player? I just don't get it ...


Max

[stephenJ]

LOL ... Becker is my all-time favorite player, men or women, yet he also
had a lot of hitches in his strokes and movement. His service motion was
like a rube goldberg machine, almost as klunky as kaarrsten brraaaasch.
And i did say Graf was very effective at what she did.

IOW's, it's possible to have a nuanced view of a player, from any
nationality.

[calim...@gmx.de]

Becker?
Never liked him. Too American ...

Max

[*skriptis]

stephenJ <sja...@cox.net> Wrote in message:

Agree
--

[calim...@gmx.de]

> Agree
> --


Why then mentioned 87.3 % of media articles on Graf's retirement in 1999 her "grace" or "elegant" play? How did they understand the term "graceful"?


Max

[*skriptis]

calim...@gmx.de Wrote in message:

She was more graceful than Sanchez vicario or Amanda coetzer or
seles or Navratilova.

But the epitome of grace? Imo, no.

Stephen said it well. Lots of mini start and stop movements in her
game, lacking total fluidity. Which then, contributes to lesser
overall grace.
--

[calim...@gmx.de]

Stop movements? What?
Because she runs from the left to the right and then back again??


Max