Did Nadal admit to cheating?
Giovanna
serve during the last game of his US Open final against Djokovic
"Interviewer: You look to your bench, and you are so nervous that you
ask: 'Where?' 'Where do I serve?' Was it so difficult?
Nadal: It was in the last game, when I was serving for the match . . .
I didn't know where to serve. Down the center, to the middle or to try
the classic play of the wide serve and then try to hit the forehand.
They told me to serve wide and that's where I served."
nless there was an error in transcription, it appears that Nadal is
freely admitting that he both asked for and received advice on where
to place his serve during the last game of the match. Such an exchange
is quite obviously coaching, and is against the rules. It's extremely
surprising that Nadal would admit such a thing, especially since there
have been several controversies, including a recent one, regarding
coaching in his career.
In 2006, Roger Federer complained that Nadal's uncle and coach Toni
Nadal was advising him from the stands, but subsequently made clear
that he had no idea whether Rafa was paying attention to the advice.
"My frustration was directed more at Toni", he later explained, "I
wasn't accusing Nadal of cheating." At this year's Wimbledon, Nadal
was fined $2,000 for receiving coaching during his third round match.
At the post match press conference, Nadal allowed that “sometimes in
the past Toni talk maybe too much . .. but not today, in my opinion.”
However what Nadal appears to admit to in El Pais goes far beyond
having an enthusiastic coach who struggles to hold his tongue. He's
stating that during a stressful time in the match, he both requested
and received tactical instruction from his support group. That's
cheating.
top athletes are often role models for kids. Positive attitude is
important, but so is following the rules. Unless he has been unfairly
misquoted, Nadal owes the tennis world a public apology.
http://www.ubitennis.com/sport/tennis/2010/09/16/385737-nadal_admit_cheating_during_open_final.shtml
Superdave
Everybody KNOWS he is a CHEAT.
His legacy will suffer for it later.
tuan
> Everybody KNOWS he is a CHEAT.
>
> His legacy will suffer for it later.
>
Could a Spanish speaking rster confirm this translation?
tuan
UPDATE: The above article has been brought to the attention of Nadal's
media contact, Benito Perez-Barbadillo. He declined to respond (and
I'm phrasing that more gently than he did). That's dissapointing, as
even if the El Pais interview was innaccurate, you would think Nadal's
camp would want to set the record straight, especially since El Pais
is a major Spanish newpaper with a large circulation. I'll continue to
report on this story if there are any new developments.
Joella klinghoffer
Fan
was a set-up and Nadal with his poor English may have said something
that could be misinterpreted. It is not intended as a cut but I
noticed that Spanish-speaking people have a harder time learning
English than others. I do not say that they could not just that with
so many people in so many countries speaking Spanish they do not feel
as
compelled to learn English as a player from a small Eastern European
country would.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to prove if anything of
the
sort happened. Look at the videos and see if Nadal asked for or got
any instructions from “them”. Without such proof, the story can be
filed away with all the other lies against Nadal.
Well?
tuan
Er, the interview was presumably in Spanish since it's between a Spanish
paper and a Spanish player!
The video certainly showed Nadal flicking his eyes towards the stands
from time to time and Toni gesticulating with a white towel in his hand
(rather strange isn't it). See for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioZVWo4x144&feature=related at 04:47,
04:53, 5:08 (the last game). Of course that's not conclusive proof,
you'd have to focus on Nadal's face and on his team all the time to
really tell.
TT
lol. This is too funny. Now we know that Toni standing up with a white
towel in his hands at 5-2, 30-0 means "serve out wide, but miss the
first serve...then serve the 2nd serve down the line and lose the point
because of lucky netcord".
--
"I am no more a witch than you are a wizard, and if you take away my
life God will give you blood to drink"
-Sarah Good, 1692
drew
> Nadal tells Spanish newspaper that his support team told him where to
> serve during the last game of his US Open final against Djokovic
>
> "Interviewer: You look to your bench, and you are so nervous that you
> ask: 'Where?' 'Where do I serve?' Was it so difficult?
>
> Nadal: It was in the last game, when I was serving for the match . . .
> I didn't know where to serve. Down the center, to the middle or to try
> the classic play of the wide serve and then try to hit the forehand.
> They told me to serve wide and that's where I served."
That's crazy. Why would he admit to doing this? There's a lot of
subtle and
not so subtle coaching from the stands but everybody denies it because
it
is clearly against the rules.
Javier González
> Fan wrote:
> > This is the usual garbage. They try to make things up. The question
> > was a set-up and Nadal with his poor English may have said something
> > that could be misinterpreted. It is not intended as a cut but I
> > noticed that Spanish-speaking people have a harder time learning
> > English than others. I do not say that they could not just that with
> > so many people in so many countries speaking Spanish they do not feel
> > as
> > compelled to learn English as a player from a small Eastern European
> > country would.
> > It would be the easiest thing in the world to prove if anything of
> > the
> > sort happened. Look at the videos and see if Nadal asked for or got
> > any instructions from “them”. Without such proof, the story can be
> > filed away with all the other lies against Nadal.
> > Well?
>
> Er, the interview was presumably in Spanish since it's between a Spanish
> paper and a Spanish player!
I would like to have the link from El Pais, but I couldn't find the
interview in their website. Anybody have the direct link? I can
translate if you can find it.
tuan
Fan
> Fan wrote:
> > This is the usual garbage. They try to make things up. The question
> > was a set-up and Nadal with his poor English may have said something
> > that could be misinterpreted. It is not intended as a cut but I
> > noticed that Spanish-speaking people have a harder time learning
> > English than others. I do not say that they could not just that with
> > so many people in so many countries speaking Spanish they do not feel
> > as
> > compelled to learn English as a player from a small Eastern European
> > country would.
> > It would be the easiest thing in the world to prove if anything of
> > the
> > sort happened. Look at the videos and see if Nadal asked for or got
> > any instructions from “them”. Without such proof, the story can be
> > filed away with all the other lies against Nadal.
> > Well?
>
> Er, the interview was presumably in Spanish since it's between a Spanish
> paper and a Spanish player!
>
> The video certainly showed Nadal flicking his eyes towards the stands
> from time to time and Toni gesticulating with a white towel in his hand
> 04:53, 5:08 (the last game). Of course that's not conclusive proof,
> you'd have to focus on Nadal's face and on his team all the time to
I looked at the video. It takes a wild imagination to see anything
other than great tennis in that video.
Fan
> tuan wrote:
> > Fan wrote:
> >> This is the usual garbage. They try to make things up. The question
> >> was a set-up and Nadal with his poor English may have said something
> >> that could be misinterpreted. It is not intended as a cut but I
> >> noticed that Spanish-speaking people have a harder time learning
> >> English than others. I do not say that they could not just that with
> >> so many people in so many countries speaking Spanish they do not feel
> >> as
> >> compelled to learn English as a player from a small Eastern European
> >> country would.
> >> It would be the easiest thing in the world to prove if anything of
> >> the
> >> sort happened. Look at the videos and see if Nadal asked for or got
> >> any instructions from “them”. Without such proof, the story can be
> >> filed away with all the other lies against Nadal.
> >> Well?
>
> > Er, the interview was presumably in Spanish since it's between a Spanish
> > paper and a Spanish player!
>
> > The video certainly showed Nadal flicking his eyes towards the stands
> > from time to time and Toni gesticulating with a white towel in his hand
> > (rather strange isn't it). See for example
> > 04:53, 5:08 (the last game).
>
> lol. This is too funny. Now we know that Toni standing up with a white
> towel in his hands at 5-2, 30-0 means "serve out wide, but miss the
> first serve...then serve the 2nd serve down the line and lose the point
> because of lucky netcord".
>
much that they would conjur up almost any garbage to smear him. The
funny thing is that these same people go nuts when you talk about well
documented facts about Federer.
drew
> On Sep 30, 2:54 pm, TT <d...@email.me> wrote:
>
>
>
> > tuan wrote:
> > > Fan wrote:
> > >> This is the usual garbage. They try to make things up. The question
> > >> was a set-up and Nadal with his poor English may have said something
> > >> that could be misinterpreted. It is not intended as a cut but I
> > >> noticed that Spanish-speaking people have a harder time learning
> > >> English than others. I do not say that they could not just that with
> > >> so many people in so many countries speaking Spanish they do not feel
> > >> as
> > >> compelled to learn English as a player from a small Eastern European
> > >> country would.
> > >> It would be the easiest thing in the world to prove if anything of
> > >> the
> > >> sort happened. Look at the videos and see if Nadal asked for or got
> > >> any instructions from “them”. Without such proof, the story can be
> > >> filed away with all the other lies against Nadal.
> > >> Well?
>
> > > Er, the interview was presumably in Spanish since it's between a Spanish
> > > paper and a Spanish player!
>
> > > The video certainly showed Nadal flicking his eyes towards the stands
> > > from time to time and Toni gesticulating with a white towel in his hand
> > > (rather strange isn't it). See for example
> > > 04:53, 5:08 (the last game).
>
> > lol. This is too funny. Now we know that Toni standing up with a white
> > towel in his hands at 5-2, 30-0 means "serve out wide, but miss the
> > first serve...then serve the 2nd serve down the line and lose the point
> > because of lucky netcord".
>
> It is not that these people are for Djokovic. They just hate Nadal so
> much that they would conjur up almost any garbage to smear him. The
> funny thing is that these same people go nuts when you talk about well
> documented facts about Federer
Anybody have the article translated?
tuan
Nobody said that the video proves anything. But it takes an absence of
logic to conclude from the video that Nadal did not receive coaching.
TT
Yes. This has nothing to do with people caring about coaching(in a 2
break lead situation too)...This has everything to do with that
Fedfuckers are really pissed about Rafa's reaching yet another
milestone. Boo fucking hoo.
TT
The link has been translated by Spanish speakers already. This is old
news, around couple of weeks or so...
TT
And why do you care? Bitter much?
TT
Maybe he wanted to pay a penalty of 2000 USD or so? He can afford it,
was it 1.7 million from USO and 1.5 million from Bangkok entry...
(Usual/Average monthly wage for a Thai person is around 250 dollars -
compare that to Nadal just showing up on some minor tournament - Crazy!)
Javier González
Here's my translation. My comments between [square brackets]
Q: You look at your "bench" ["banquillo", borrowing the phrase from
soccer where the bench is where the coach and trainers seat], and
you're so nervous you ask "Where? Where do I serve?". Was it that
difficult?
A: It was the last game, when I was serving for the match. I really
felt very very nervous since I got the second break in the fourth set.
He was doing bad at that time. I played 3-1 well, aggressive. When I
got the double break, the 4-1, the whole world came down on me [not
really sure that's clear in English, I believe he's expressing he felt
a "whole world's weight on my shoulders" kind of pressure pressure]. I
thought I was really going to win the USO and I had trouble with
absorbing it. I was very, very nervous.
Q: How did it affect you?
A: I didn't know where to serve. Ace, middle or try the classic serve
out wide and go for the forehand. They told me to serve wide and
that's where I served. Before, in the two following serves [yes, I
know it says "Before, in the following", but that's what it says :)] I
suffered more than I had been before, a lot more. He had break points
in the 4-1 and in 5-2, if you look, if you watch the replay, you see
the two first serves I can't coordinate them at all. I hit the two
meters out long. And I was serving well! Besides, I touched them
wrong. Touch the ball good, thats minimum. You can miss, but you can't
hit the ball wrong.
Q: In 2008 you won WImbledon. In match point, however, Federer hit an
unbelievable backhand while you where charging the net saying to
yourself "I'm going to win Wimbledon! I'm going to win Wimbledon!" Was
the emotion stronger this time?
A: No, it was different. The prematch nerves and the drama during the
match are not comparable. It was in that, at Wimbledon, a lot, lot
more drama. Here it was a lot calmer, nervous, evidently, because it's
a slam final, even if history was there. I was more nervous before the
W or FO final.
Q: To get here you have commited to a knee treatment. They say that
syringe impresses a lot.
A: It's something necessary, that a lot of people do. The first time
it was very painful [if it was anything like the time I've had needles
jammed in my knees, then yeah. Worst pain ever] the next times not so
much because I asked for sedatives. I couldn't stand it. When you wake
up, yeah, it hurts a lot. But when they stick it in is when it
really... I almost passed out the first time. It was between
Montecarlo and Rome. A pain so intense I almost passed out! The next
times I didn't even consider it. Dope me up and that's that. Terrible.
Q: "We'll have to value it [I think "assess it" works better for the
meaning] when my career is over". That has been your shield, your
armor when the ask you for your place in sport history. Does it give
you vertigo to talk about this?
A: It doesn't give me vertigo. At all. It's the logical thing. When
you are in competition and are 24 years old, it's not that I have
vertifo, it's that it's not positive to stop to think about history. I
am aware that I'm in tennis history. I don't need to say it or have it
said to me. The numbers are there. All time greats I always saw on TV,
big campions... well I have a career like theirs or better. McEnroe,
Agassi, Wilander, people I always saw very far away. And they are in
history, so I imagine I'll be, too.
Q: Does it surprise you that some people want to put you already as
GOAT?
A: The GOAT, as they ask me... it's not that I put on a shield, it's
that there's no discussion between Federer and me, because the titles
say it.
Q: Normal [I seriously don't know what this "normal" is doing here]:
he's won seven more slams than you.
A: Yeah, 16. But I don't think slams are the only thing that
determines who's the best. He has, outside the majors, amazing things,
just as I have mine: I have the olympic gold, which is rare because
you have one or two chances in your career. You can't compare: at this
time he's got more incredible things than I do. It's hard to speak of
history when I haven't finished my history. We'll see what happens. If
I stay this way, we'll assess it. If I keep going well, with chances
to win, we'll talk in another way. In this sport you can't stop. You
have to improve always and be prepared to work with humility and
illusion [as in hope rather than imaginary/not real, obviously] every
day.
Q: You and Moya are majorcans, who trained together, reached #1, won
DC... why have you won 8 more slams than he has?
A: We're different players. It's very complicated to win a slam. He's
had a brillian career, been a lot of years near the top. Comparisons
aren't good. He had a great career, it was a boom for Spain. Thanks to
him a lot of those who are here got into tennis, he made us see it was
possible.
Q: Does it make you feel older to see your friend become a father?
A: It look a bit weird... I started very young here, I have a lot of
friends that are older than me and don't play anymore. Albert Costa,
Galo Blanco... it's sad for me, because I miss them, but that's
sports: I am younger and have some years left around here.
Q: Borg retired very young. Federer changed coaches a lot during his
best times. Some champions change to keep winning or retire before
they stop. And you?
A: I don't see me changing coach, at all. I don't see it possible,
We've been always like this, good, and I don't need anything else.
Retire or not, I can't tell when. It's something that gets to you.
When the time comes, you feel it. I'll go when I lose the illusion of
keep working and improving. Then, I'll go home at peace, because I
have a lot of other things apart from tennis, luckily.
Q: You say you want to work on your 2nd serve.
A: I need it.
Q: So, which stroke and from whom would you steal?
A: Clearly, Karlovic's serve. No doubt. With that serve it would be
very hard to lose. With that serve everything is easier, because the
pressure on the opponent is so much greater.
Q: What does your family think when they saw you winning the title on
TV, or when they see you hitting the ball that hard?
A: I have an excellent relationship with all of them. They don't see
me like that. They see me like the grandson, the nephew... of the
things I always miss when I'm on the road, it's my small cousins and
my uncles. In my childhood, they always took me everywhere: play
tennis, play football, anything. I've lived my childhood with them.
They're the people I love the most.
Javier González
Must have missed it. Read it now, and yes, Nadal admits to asking for
and receiving advice from his entourage during the match. Not earth
shattering like Giovanna and Dave would like to, but still. Against
the explicit rules. Tsk tsk.
TT
Hard to imagine how you can have missed news of this importance. Gio and
friends have been feeding of it at least a week and a half already.
> Read it now, and yes, Nadal admits to asking for
> and receiving advice from his entourage during the match. Not earth
> shattering like Giovanna and Dave would like to, but still. Against
> the explicit rules. Tsk tsk.
tsk, tsk indeed.
drew
Thanks for that.
Sounds like he was pretty tense at the end. Just illustrates that
even the guys
who win all the time get nerves. And right up until the last ball is
hit.
But he still shouldn't have admitted that he got coached on where to
put the serve.
It's an easy one to signal from the stands and you'd never get
caught.
Javier González
Yeah, nobody is calling for Nadal to be stripped of his USO title
(except the aforementioned Hazelnuts and Giovanna). But it's still
cheating as in "breaking an explicit rule to gain advantage". Not that
he needed it by that point...
Vari L. Cinicke
Nevertheless, Team Nadal's 9 slams by the age of 78 (Uncle Toni is 54,
no?) is quite impressive! ;)
--
Cheers,
vc
RzR
what are well documented facts that he is breaking the rules, like we
have them for nadal?
didnt think so moron...
RzR
we will never know if he needed it to win...we also dont know if he
needed those fake medical breaks vs petschner in wimby...so now those
titles are diminished in value
RzR
stupid much?
drew
I think it's best that we strip all titles from all of the players
retroactively and
into the infinite future for past and future indiscretions real,
imagined, suspected
and planned.
Sao Paulo Swallow
> >>> 04:53, 5:08 (the last game).
> >> lol. This is too funny. Now we know that Toni standing up with a white
> >> towel in his hands at 5-2, 30-0 means "serve out wide, but miss the
> >> first serve...then serve the 2nd serve down the line and lose the point
> >> because of lucky netcord".
>
> > It is not that these people are for Djokovic. They just hate Nadal so
> > much that they would conjur up almost any garbage to smear him. The
> > funny thing is that these same people go nuts when you talk about well
> > documented facts about Federer.
>
> Yes. This has nothing to do with people caring about coaching(in a 2
> break lead situation too)...This has everything to do with that
> Fedfuckers are really pissed about Rafa's reaching yet another
> milestone. Boo fucking hoo.
>
If Federer did the same you'd be all over RST like a cheap suit
yelling "Idefix!"
It does say something about Nadal's vaunted mental fortitude. I've
always thought it was overblown. Not that there's anything wrong with
that.
drew
wrote:
>>
> It does say something about Nadal's vaunted mental fortitude. I've
> always thought it was overblown. Not that there's anything wrong with
> that
He's got cool during the regular points but he can get tight closing
out sets and matches like
almost everybody else.
When it comes to cool on the biggest break points I think Federer is
pretty hard to beat. Sampras
was pretty damned good too. Of course eventually somebody comes along
who pushes the greats
into a place where they aren't so comfortable. Then they are just as
susceptible to the yips as anybody
else.
Of course the more you make any shot routine the cooler you should be
when executing it under pressure.
That's why the great players always seem to have the 'luck'.
felangey
> no?) is quite impressive! ;)
:)
arnab.z@gmail
:) Vari's right. Toni Nadal is definitely the brainpower behind
Nadal's inprovements. Even the recently beefed up serve was Toni's
idea (apparently he borrowed it from Jack Nicklaus).
Vari L. Cinicke
After Uncle Toni's Svengali move asking Nadal to quit at the AO against
Murray, I lost a lot of respect for Team Nadal. Nadal has always been
pretty vocal that coaching should be allowed during matches and
obviously doesn't let mere rules get in the way.
Pity that the #1 player makes a mockery of sportsmanship!
--
Cheers,
vc
Giovanna
> > > Nevertheless, Team Nadal's 9 slams by the age of 78 (Uncle Toni is 54,
> > > no?) is quite impressive! ;)
totally~~
Giovanna
> (Uncle Toni is 54,
> > > no?)
i thought Rafa is 54 and Toni 24, no? Toni looks way younger, and he's
not even bald yet!!
Giovanna
> :) Vari's right. Toni Nadal is definitely the brainpower
u mean PIMP
I don't know what you heard about me
But a bitch can't get a dollar out of me
No Cadillac, no perms, you can't see
That I'm a motherfucking P-I-M-P
Inglourious Basterd
did anyone ever tell you you should have been a stand up comedian,
Vari?
No really, your sense of humour is superlative.
Inglourious Basterd
I would tell you to stop sucking Vari's cock but then she is a woman
so that wouldn't really be right.
Anyhoo it's hardly a surprise that you are one of the few people who
finds Vari's statement in any way humorous.
tuan
Thanks. I found the first question particularly interesting:
> Q: You look at your "bench" ["banquillo", borrowing the phrase from
> soccer where the bench is where the coach and trainers seat], and
> you're so nervous you ask "Where? Where do I serve?". Was it that
> difficult?
How did the interviewer know all these things, especially that Nadal
asked where to serve? They must have spoken off the records before the
interview began, otherwise the question could not be so specific, and if
it's wrong Nadal would have strongly denied it. Interesting that there
has been no denial from the Nadal team. El Pais is a very prestigious
newspaper, the biggest selling non-sport newspaper in Spain.
tuan
The point is not that Nadal asked for and received coaching at that
particular point or whether it helped him win that particular match. The
point is that it implies he has been doing it as a matter of course and
think nothing of it. Of course that has all kind of implications about
unfair tactical and psychological advantage against players who don't
get that kind of support. In the long run - years and hundreds of
matches - how much does that advantage add up to? How many wins and
ranking points?
Some people defend it by saying that everyone does it, but that's not an
excuse IMO. Especially when I do know of players who don't do it, such
as Federer. So it's not earth shattering if you are cynical, but not
just tsk tsk either.
topspin
I think the great clutch players, the champions, feel the nervousness
like everyone else, but with them the nerves somehow manifest
themselves as the 'correct' play in the circumstances. Out of the fog
of nerves comes an ice-cold play. That is why they end up as
champions.
I don't really care much whether Nadal got told where to serve or not.
What I do know is that one thing I really admire Federer for is the
fact that he has achieved everything apart from his first Wimbledon on
his own, without any reference to anyone in the stands. I really like
that. It seems to me a throwback to an old-fashioned form of tennis
where the player was responsible for themselves on court, no matter
what happened.
It seems to me to be a thoroughly admirable feature of his
achievements, and something which embellishes them.
tuan
I agree, a lot of Federer seems to be throwbacks: versatile playing
style, one handed backhand, demeanour on court, lone warrior type. A
true old-time champ in the modern era.
Patrick Kehoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
It's not exactly reverberating among the tennis scribes; not yet at
any rate... were I a tennis writer, I would certainly examine this
issue... this is actually quite serious in my book...
P
Patrick Kehoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes... very true...
P
Patrick Kehoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree...
P
tuan
> tuan wrote:
>
>> Fan wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 30, 1:26 pm, tuan <phamquangt...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is the usual garbage. They try to make things up. The question
>>>>> was a set-up and Nadal with his poor English may have said something
>>>>> that could be misinterpreted. It is not intended as a cut but I
>>>>> noticed that Spanish-speaking people have a harder time learning
>>>>> English than others. I do not say that they could not just that with
>>>>> so many people in so many countries speaking Spanish they do not feel
>>>>> as
>>>>> compelled to learn English as a player from a small Eastern European
>>>>> country would.
>>>>> It would be the easiest thing in the world to prove if anything of
>>>>> the
>>>>> sort happened. Look at the videos and see if Nadal asked for or got
>>>>> any instructions from “them”. Without such proof, the story can be
>>>>> filed away with all the other lies against Nadal.
>>>>> Well?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Er, the interview was presumably in Spanish since it's between a
>>>> Spanish
>>>> paper and a Spanish player!
>>>>
>>>> from time to time and Toni gesticulating with a white towel in his hand
>>>> (rather strange isn't it). See for
>>>> examplehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioZVWo4x144&feature=relatedat
>>>> 04:47,
>>>> you'd have to focus on Nadal's face and on his team all the time to
>>>> really tell.-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I looked at the video. It takes a wild imagination to see anything
>>> other than great tennis in that video.
>>
>>
>> Nobody said that the video proves anything. But it takes an absence of
>> logic to conclude from the video that Nadal did not receive coaching.
>
>
> And why do you care? Bitter much?
The real question is why some people don't care. In my upbringing, sport
and fair play go together.
felangey
any rate... were I a tennis writer, I would certainly examine this
I agree. And the more Nadal grows into his role as the new head of the tour,
the more standout this issue (and the time issue) becomes. There has
certainly been a great deal more discussion in the media of some of his
issues of late, and there is no way at this stage that he is oblivious to
the whole thing...yet he chooses to continue rather than clean up his act. I
find it very odd.
Superdave
Rafa is dishonest by nature.
If he was not wealthy from playing tennis he would no doubt be a common car thief
or something.
Cheating is in his DNA.
TT
Other players are coached from the stands too, Federer has been coached
as well. "move your feet roger".
And Federer is hardly an example of fair play, all his mind games with
murray and toilet break against Davydenko etc. So suck it up babyboy,
Rafa is just better than your hero.
--
"I am no more a witch than you are a wizard, and if you take away my
life God will give you blood to drink"
-Sarah Good, 1692
tuan
With a white towel? :)
Vari L. Cinicke
Bingo!
--
Cheers,
vc
topspin
I don't have a big problem with Nadal and Uncle Toni. I think their
overall relationship is admirable, rather touching, and I like their
overall attitude. As regards coaching from the stand, they are only
doing what has been happening for decades. I think generally the men
are low-key, unlike the women where the constant referring to coaches
is frankly pathetic.
So I don't take the episode as a reason to lambast Nadal. Rather I
take it as a reason to praise Federer and to put his achievements in
an even better light. I suspect a lot of the other players respect him
for that too, including Nadal and Uncle Toni. They seem genuinely
generous in their praise of Federer, and although they value their own
relationship and would not have it any other way, I suspect they
admire Federer for his ability to plough his own furrow. They know how
difficult the circuit is, and how much Nadal gains from the presence
of Toni.
RzR
>
> Other playersare coached from the stands too, Federer has been coached
> as well. "move your feet roger".
>
lol
> And Federer is hardly an example of fair play, all his mind games with
> murray and toilet break against Davydenko etc. So suck it up babyboy,
> Rafa is just better than your hero.
>
true...in cheating he beats everyone
Rodjk #613
Those are good points.
The important thing to remember is this:
There is a tennis authority. The umpires, referees, and the ATP.
They chose not to enforce the rules, so it is on their heads.
Nadal and others are just going along with what is enforced.
Rodjk #613
Vari L. Cinicke
> overall relationship is admirable, rather touching, and I like their
> overall attitude. As regards coaching from the stand, they are only
> doing what has been happening for decades. I think generally the men
> are low-key, unlike the women where the constant referring to coaches
> is frankly pathetic.
>
> So I don't take the episode as a reason to lambast Nadal. Rather I
> take it as a reason to praise Federer and to put his achievements in
> an even better light. I suspect a lot of the other players respect him
> for that too, including Nadal and Uncle Toni. They seem genuinely
> generous in their praise of Federer, and although they value their own
> relationship and would not have it any other way, I suspect they
> admire Federer for his ability to plough his own furrow. They know how
> difficult the circuit is, and how much Nadal gains from the presence
> of Toni.
I am not okay with the gamesmanship that this coaching is part of. I
take this and Nadal's on-court behavior as part of the "winning is the
only thing" philosophy.
Apart from that, I think Uncle Toni and Nadal are nice people. I like
what Nadal is contributing to growing the sport.
Maybe a day will come when Nadal will become mature enough as a player
to dispense with the outside-the-rules stuff. The sport will benefit by
it, IMO.
--
Cheers,
vc
topspin
I can see why some might get upset at Nadal's behaviour, but it seems
to me to be important only if you take a trophy-counting approach to
things. To me it just seems part of the totality of Nadal's game, and
I have written before that I find his pauses when playing add to the
dramatic effect of his matches. I also think his opponents enjoy the
rest they get, otherwise there would be a lot more complaining going
on!
It certainly hasn't prevented Federer from winning a lot, so I cannot
see it as a great tennis injustice. In fact, as I say, it just
illuminates the quality of what Federer has achieved and raises it to
a higher level.
So Nadal's behaviour and tics are, to me, just part of the tapestry
of the game, enough to add spice, but not enough to derail great
achievements by Federer in any way, shape, or form. If they have
helped even up the competition between the two of them, and given us
some great matches, then why complain? - Federer has still produced
the wonderful shots of which he is capable, had fabulous achievements
in his career. And so has Nadal.
jdeluise
On 1-Oct-2010, topspin <goolag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have written before that I find his pauses when playing add to the
> dramatic effect of his matches. I also think his opponents enjoy the
> rest they get, otherwise there would be a lot more complaining going
> on!
Really, I find his dramatic pauses boring and predictable. When you have
two slow players on the court at the same time (like Djok and his incessant
ball bouncing) it's excruciating.
tuan
You contradicted yourself several times in this post! :)
topspin
Really, where?
tuan
I don't want to get into an argument about it, but, for example, you
seem to say that Nadal's coaching hasn't hurt Federer, but it shows up
Federer's greatness. Well it it hasn't hurt Federer then it illustrates
nothing, and if it illustrates Federer gretness then it must have hurt
Federer in some way.
"It certainly hasn't prevented Federer from winning a lot" is not
exactly a contradiction but still a logical flaw because nobody knows
how much more Federer would have achieved without it. It could have been
nothing, or a lot, but you just don't know, and you cannot use what
Federer DID achieve to prove that it didn't hurt him. It's like saying
that Borg won a lot so therefore McEnroe's presence did't hurt his
achievements at all.
felangey
> and fair play go together<
This. To the highest degree. In all the sports I have played, the ethos I
have experienced is there is no honour without fairplay.
I can't and doubt I ever will get my head around why Nadal is okay with
flouting these rules to his advantage. Even the grunting stuff. If someone
in my club developed a sporadic grunt, that often lasted until their
opponent hit the ball....they would, without shadow of a doubt, be kerpunted
to the kerb.
topspin
It may have hurt him in that he might have won a few more of their
meetings (I don't see it myself), but since Federer has already won
more slams than anyone else in the Open Era, it hasn't prevented him
getting to that status of greatness. If you think slams counts, or
tournament wins, are the only thing that matters then that is a
'hurt'. If, like me, you take the view that it is the whole picture
that matters in determining greatness, then it has not 'hurt', it has
just given a different context to their meetings.
> "It certainly hasn't prevented Federer from winning a lot" is not
> exactly a contradiction but still a logical flaw because nobody knows
> how much more Federer would have achieved without it. It could have been
> nothing, or a lot, but you just don't know, and you cannot use what
> Federer DID achieve to prove that it didn't hurt him. It's like saying
> that Borg won a lot so therefore McEnroe's presence did't hurt his
> achievements at all.
Well, in my view, McEnroe's presence did not hurt Borg at all. It only
hurt it for those who wanted Borg just to be assessed on slam wins. I
think that is a Mickey Mouse way of assessing players. McEnroe's
presence raised Borg (and vice versa, and Connors too) because each's
achievements were made when they were competing with each other.
Simple arithmetic says that the more great players you have at any
time, the less each can take. The greater the competition = the
greater a player's achievements, it isn't just a numbers game. IMO.
Superdave
Rafa makes a MOCKERY of the sport and it's governing bodies. No matter how
many titles he wins most real tennis fans will dismiss him as a CHEAT.
tuan
You can see the difference, I hope, between legitimate competition and
not so legit one. The non legit one doesn't make anybody greater, either
the perpetrator or his opponents.
topspin
On the contrary, if one player is obeying the rules, and their
opponent is not, then the one obeying the rules, especially under
provocation, is greater, just for that reason.
As regards Nadal's rule breaking, I see it as on the (very) minor
side, for the reasons I have said. The timetaking - both he and
Federer are on the ATP board. If it was seen as a huge issue I have no
doubt it would have been raised. Also it can benefit his opponents by
giving them a break, so it is not as if it is a direct advantage. I'm
afraid I see most of the fuss as being Federer obsessives finding any
reason to criticise Nadal, or to get back at Nadal obsessives. Frankly
everyone should grow up.
I can more see the objections of those who like to see a game rattle
along. I am in that camp myself, but rather than focus first on Nadal
I would first abolish the incessant face-wiping with towel. That
drives me nuts - it is tedious, unhygienic, and just unpleasant and
unnecessary to watch. Nadal taking time between points, that I enjoy
as a dramatic pause.
On the coaching side I don't see it as a big issue because they all do
it, apart from Federer. If Nadal was the only one, then I would find
it objectionable, but he isn't, by a long way. So I do not criticise
Nadal, I praise Federer. I think it is one of those things which can
be disguised very easily, so the only way for it to be eradicated is
for players as a group to decide that it is immoral. It is like doping
in cycling, it will only happen if the p3ayers themselves make the
decision. But it is not a Nadal issue, it is a general issue. And one
from which Federer emerges with great credit.
tuan
You are still contradicting yourself. If not obeying the rule doesn't
confer any advantage, then it cannot make people who obey the rule any
greater, because obeying the rule does not cause any disadvantage. You
can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
You can praise or not praise and criticise or not criticise whoever you
like, that's your personal right, but the rules of logic are the same
for everyone.
topspin
I did not say not obeying the rule did not convey an advantage. But
the advantage can be big, or small. In this case I think it is small.
Just as the credit for not breaking the rule can be big, or small.
> You can praise or not praise and criticise or not criticise whoever you
> like, that's your personal right, but the rules of logic are the same
> for everyone.
???
tuan
OK, you think the advantage is small, so you have small praise for
Federer - I understand :) As to not objecting to players flouting the
rules, we must agree to disagree - You must have grown up in a
different environment than I did.
bob
i wouldn't have a problem if they installed a clock like NBA shot
clock for time between pts, but as whisp has pointed out many times, i
bet nadal's opponents woulld *beg* referee to turn it off. :-)
bob
Superdave
i disagree. but at least then rafa would not be CHEATING and the game would be FAIR!
right now it is NOT.
topspin
aking the rule can be big, or small.
>
> OK, you think the advantage is small, so you have small praise for
> Federer - I understand :) As to not objecting to players flouting the
> rules, we must agree to disagree - You must have grown up in a
> different environment than I did.
A country where there is a saying "Rules are made to be broken".