Thiem destroyed Nadal, because Rafa's forehand still SUCKS big time, and by now I lost hope he'll ever find it again!

[Geeam]

No doubt Nadal's playing a great season so far, but I still haven't seen Nadal's trademark forehand for more than three years now. And I mean not in a single match. NEVER! The last match he clearly had it was SF Australian 2014, so I guess he must have lost it sometime in 2014. I still have no idea why that happened, but it sure happened. Rafa himself admitted it many times, but never actually gave an explanation. Of course, he's still playing brilliant forehand winners occasionally, but the big difference is that his forehand used to be rock solid with almost no miss hits at all. I'm even sure there were whole tournaments in which he did't have one single miss hit. Today against Thiem it felt like Rafa had one miss hit in EVERY game. And remember: Nadal's forehand was IMO the ONLY reason why he dominated Federer for so long. Now that Rafa's forehand lost much of its intensity and consistency, it allowed Federer to take the upper hand.

[Pelle Svanslös]

On 19.5.2017 19:39, Geeam wrote:
> No doubt Nadal's playing a great season so far, but I still haven't seen Nadal's trademark forehand for more than three years now. And I mean not in a single match. NEVER! The last match he clearly had it was SF Australian 2014, so I guess he must have lost it sometime in 2014. I still have no idea why that happened, but it sure happened. Rafa himself admitted it many times, but never actually gave an explanation. Of course, he's still playing brilliant forehand winners occasionally, but the big difference is that his forehand used to be rock solid with almost no miss hits at all. I'm even sure there were whole tournaments in which he did't have one single miss hit. Today against Thiem it felt like Rafa had one miss hit in EVERY game. And remember: Nadal's forehand was IMO the ONLY reason why he dominated Federer for so long. Now that Rafa's forehand lost much of its intensity and consistency, it allowed Federer to take the upper hand.

How do you spell tactical loss? Rafa wants to be an under doggie dog.

--
“Donald Trump is the weak man’s vision of a strong man.”
-- Charles Cooke

[The Iceberg]

This totally proves Nadal is out of sorts, as I've been saying the entire year.

[Carey]

Yep. "I weel do my bes, no?"


Mac did the same thing before USO '84, when he was riding a little higher than he wanted to be.
Lost to Amitraj, I think.

Smart move by Nada, I'd say.

[rec.sport.tennis]

On Fri, 19 May 2017 10:35:07 -0700, The Iceberg wrote:

> This totally proves Nadal is out of sorts, as I've been saying the
> entire year.

He's not out of sorts he's just not as good as he was. Neither is Federer
but the others are so average their talent still makes them competitive.

[Patrick Kehoe]

Yes, good point... Rafa and Feds are still elites, capable (during bursts of on court exceptionalism) to still dominate a field of players... they were career outliers relative to most of the fields they played for long periods (years), so, (even today - late on into their careers) when they cycle back to levels of performance approximating their 'best tennis' they are incredibly difficult to deal with, even at 30/31 and 35/36 respectively... BUT their placement is tenuous, let's face it... Rafa and Feds could pull up lame/injured very easily now... Federer pulling out of the FO is a clear signal, as were his comments at the AO about 'hoping to see you all next year'... he's internalized the reality that he could suffer another injury OUT OF THE PROVERBIAL BLUE at any moment now... that's what being 35/36 (in large part) means for an athlete... he's seen the limitations and reality of injury and therapy and how it plays an ever more daunting role in relation to ones career... NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE...

For rampant Rafa and Feds, it becomes how long can they sustain that elite exceptionalism... how can they keep to that kind of intensely keen, focused, championship level... and offset the gains made by the 2 other gens in men's tennis ever encircling them... Theim is just an 'expression' (if you will) of the onset of a next wave of elites pushing against their 'traditional placement' within the absolute elite/championship set, at the top of men's tennis... and there will always been encroachment unto the absolute top of the game, inter-generationally or generational overlapping... the next step for Theim and Zverev and NickK will be to challenge Nole/Rafa/Murray/Fed at/in a major (final), then in winning one (having one of them actually push through) to signify the onset of a generational shift... because the Nish/Raonic/ set of players have essentially not completed that phase of encroachment, MAKING the final of the FO extremely important, Wimbledon too... (And here one 'frames' Murray/Nole/Rafa and Fed as one gen, even though, Fed is the outlier within them (due to chronological age AND Rafa closer to Fed due to having been a teen phenomena, as so his 'career clock' seems closer to Fed than Nole/Murray)... anyway...

If Murray and Nole don't "REBOOT" sufficiently, we might well have a kind of reframing of the men's game by the USO - HERE I AM FEELING FED WON'T BE WINNING THE USO... so, a prediction of sorts as predicate... ya, reframing... OR at least the onset of one... How Rafa and Feds do at the FO and W will be critical of course... because Theim and Zverev and NickK seem to have that final ingredient that Tomic, Nish, Raonic, Goffin don't, quite have... WITH THE EXCEPTION OF RAONIC at Wimbledon... his particular game might just work there... so, he could be an exception to the over all failure of his 'sub-generation' (if you will) in one specific setting (Wimbledon)... hard to say for sure... he might be a one off major winner ala Cilic or Delpo, they at the USO and Raonic at Wimbledon... we shall wait to see...

It's looking (possibly) more and more likely that Zverev on hardcourt (all court) and Theim on clay (for now) are the leading contenders to make a break through as time moves on and the generation cross over (tectonic shifts) become increasingly apparent... Resurgent Rafa and Feds are amazing trends against probability in a way... will the balance of the season prove to be more of their late-late career exceptionalism OR will things fairly quickly begin to revert to a more normative pattern? Murray and Nole, of course, will have a LOT to say in just what kind of gains the NextGens have in 2017... so, far the NEXTGENS haven't cracked the LONG ESTABLISHED elite patterning... but the cracks are there... Will Fed be able to pick up where he left off in Miami or will the grass season prove more troubling (or the summer hard court season) than some might expect? How will Rafa actually play in the second week of the FO? There's a lot still out there that's problematic for both of them... AND... Murray and Nole??? When are they going to resurface? Is Nole laying the foundations this week?

P

[TennisGuy]

Funny his body language didn't show that at all.
It showed he was royally pissed to the gills.

Body language detector test = FAIL

[The Iceberg]

nice writing, but how on earth do you figure Thiem, Zverev and NickK have the final ingredient??? Fed won the AO against Nadal, 30+ out of sorts Nadal has won absolutely everything until today, what exactly are you basing this stuff on? you could write the same about Tomic.

[PeteWasLucky]

The youngster getting chances to play nadal again and again eventually got him to find a way to beat him. Their matches were getting closer and closer.

[Guypers]

Nadal Thiem match on youtube??

[arahim]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 12:36:52 PM UTC-7, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> The youngster getting chances to play nadal again and again eventually got him to find a way to beat him. Their matches were getting closer and closer.

"I came in with a very aggressive game style, because I knew that if I wanted to have a chance, then I would have to do something different and be more aggressive," said Thiem.

"By stepping inside the baseline to take Nadal’s groundstrokes early, Thiem continued to prosper in the second set – at one point winning eight out of nine points to almost clinch a service break for 3-1"

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/nadal-thiem-rome-2017-friday

[Court_1]

Thiem's performance today was excellent(Soderling-like) but can he do that and take three sets off Nadal at the FO?

[arahim]

Then there is always Djokovic...he still has a couple of weeks, before a possible match with Nadal at FO, to get his act together. If he takes care of del Potro then his match against Thiem will be of some interest.

Djokovic is diminished for about the last year but still...one reason perhaps a lot of Nadal fans (or Federer's detractors) wanted Federer in the mix was as a foil against Djokovic.

[TT]

19.5.2017, 19:39, Geeam kirjoitti:
> No doubt Nadal's playing a great season so far, but I still haven't seen Nadal's trademark forehand for more than three years now. And I mean not in a single match. NEVER! The last match he clearly had it was SF Australian 2014, so I guess he must have lost it sometime in 2014. I still have no idea why that happened, but it sure happened. Rafa himself admitted it many times, but never actually gave an explanation. Of course, he's still playing brilliant forehand winners occasionally, but the big difference is that his forehand used to be rock solid with almost no miss hits at all. I'm even sure there were whole tournaments in which he did't have one single miss hit. Today against Thiem it felt like Rafa had one miss hit in EVERY game. And remember: Nadal's forehand was IMO the ONLY reason why he dominated Federer for so long. Now that Rafa's forehand lost much of its intensity and consistency, it allowed Federer to take the upper hand.
>

Rafa's fearhand is almost there... I think he played badly both his
matches in Rome though. Maybe he was tired or something, having played
lots of matches past four weeks. Thiem played great especially the first
set.

Rafa said he'll have some rest (aka playing golf/fishing) now and will
get back to tennis on Monday or Tuesday. That's imo still too short a
break, just a long weekend... but I guess better nothing...

Hope Thiem wins Rome...

[John Liang]

Since your interest is on Nadal I think it will be interest to see how Nadal perform next week, I reckon he should have passed up the chance to play Rome. I think he is overplaying the tune up events hitting his peak before the main event.

[Patrick Kehoe]

... I am saying that Fed/Rafa resurgence are the least 'reliable' in terms of 1) sustainability and 2) the most likely to fizzle out or suffer key setbacks from injury and or onset of final decline... EVEN as brilliant as they are now playing at their respective ages and professional mileage, that's the fact looming... How long can they suspend the inevitable?

And someone has to move into the top slots and from a merit and age point of view, Zverev, NickK and Theim seem the most likely due to their respective skill sets and proven quality - which are only TRENDING, not yet realized, STILL, they seem the best bets... And that's where the viability of Murray at 30 and Nole at 30 come into sharp focus/importance... just how much do they have left? How reliable will their respective games and wills be going forward... The young guns are closer already to the big 4 than Milos/Nish/ etc., have proven them selves to be against the big 4... seems they are likely to skip right past them this season or at latest sometime next season... at least they are trending that way... they are (as a group) beginning to put up bigger and bigger results vs the big 4... the test comes at the majors, naturally... Zverev dismissed Raonic quite authoritatively today (one more brick in the wall)... It will be fascinating to see Nole/Fed/Rafa/Murray against Zverev/NickK/Theim at the majors going forward... the battle has been well and truly joined...

P

[Court_1]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 10:41:27 PM UTC-4, John Liang wrote:

> it will be interest to see how Nadal perform next week, I reckon he should have passed up the chance to play Rome.

I don't think so.

> I think he is overplaying the tune up events hitting his peak before the main event.

I doubt it but we'll see.

[Geeam]

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 2:15:12 AM UTC+2, TT wrote:
> Rafa's fearhand is almost there... I think he played badly both his
> matches in Rome though. Maybe he was tired or something, having played
> lots of matches past four weeks.

I wish this was true, but if that happens after a 17 match winning streak, it could happen anytime, so it's not "almost there". This also proves it can't be about self-confidence. Nadal has recently played some of his best tennis since 2014, but still a far cry from the level he displayed in 2013 and before.
IMO this is what happened: Sometime in 2014 it turned out that for whatever reason he could no longer play his forehand the way he used to play it. All of a sudden miss hits and unforced errors creeped in that were unheard of since 2005. So in 2014 the problem arose that Nadal's game of defensive counterpunching was based on a consistency which was suddenly no longer there. Rafa still continued with his "old" game in 2014 and 2015, hoping that he could somehow regain his former strength. Then in late 2015 he realized that this was probably never going to happen, so he decided to be more aggressive, taking the ball much earlier than before, especially his forehand. If you compare the way he plays now to his pre-2014 matches, his playing rhythm (for lack of a better term) is totally different. His game is now actually based on the consistency of his backhand which IMO he vastly improved and is better than ever. So undoubtedly, Nadal did a very good job to compensate for the weakness of his forehand, but as we've already seen this years against Federer, this weakness makes him much more vulnerable than he used to be.

[TT]

He has improved the forehand a lot since the worst days, don't expect it
to be perfect overnight. Also, one match doesn't mean it's a failure but
just a lapse.

I do think his practice methods are wrong though, mostly practices flat
forehands but then in competition hits most with topspin.

I think currently his biggest problem is lack of consistent depth when
he would need it (against Thiem yesterday). In 2010 RG final he unarmed
Söderling mostly by hitting with great depth. Also had, again, trouble
with Thiem serve. Maybe Rome is also very fast this year... look at the
top side of the draw: big servers doing very well.

[The Iceberg]

yes I agree (for once), good post.

[*skriptis]

TT <as...@dprk.kp> Wrote in message:

> 20.5.2017, 13:18, Geeam kirjoitti:
>> On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 2:15:12 AM UTC+2, TT wrote:
>>> Rafa's fearhand is almost there... I think he played badly both his
>>> matches in Rome though. Maybe he was tired or something, having played
>>> lots of matches past four weeks.
>>
>> I wish this was true, but if that happens after a 17 match winning streak, it could happen anytime, so it's not "almost there". This also proves it can't be about self-confidence. Nadal has recently played some of his best tennis since 2014, but still a far cry from the level he displayed in 2013 and before.
>> IMO this is what happened: Sometime in 2014 it turned out that for whatever reason he could no longer play his forehand the way he used to play it. All of a sudden miss hits and unforced errors creeped in that were unheard of since 2005. So in 2014 the problem arose that Nadal's game of defensive counterpunching was based on a consistency which was suddenly no longer there. Rafa still continued with his "old" game in 2014 and 2015, hoping that he could somehow regain his former strength. Then in late 2015 he realized that this was probably never going to happen, so he decided to be more aggressive, taking the ball much earlier than before, especially his forehand. If you compare the way he plays now to his pre-2014 matches, his playing rhythm (for lack of a better term) is totally different. His game is now actually based on the consistency of his backhand which IMO he vastly improved and is better than ever. So undoubtedly, Nadal did a very good job to compensate for the weakness of his forehand, but as we've already seen this years against Federer, this weakness makes him much more vulnerable than he used to be.
>>
>
> He has improved the forehand a lot since the worst days, don't expect it
> to be perfect overnight. Also, one match doesn't mean it's a failure but
> just a lapse.
>
> I do think his practice methods are wrong though, mostly practices flat
> forehands but then in competition hits most with topspin.

Maybe his sparing partners can't return his topspin shots so he's
forced to hit flat?

--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[kaennorsing]

Op zaterdag 20 mei 2017 13:01:03 UTC+2 schreef *skriptis:

> Maybe his sparing partners can't return his topspin shots so he's
> forced to hit flat?

:))

[The Iceberg]

On Friday, 19 May 2017 20:36:52 UTC+1, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> The youngster getting chances to play nadal again and again eventually got him to find a way to beat him. Their matches were getting closer and closer.

LOL

[bob]

On Fri, 19 May 2017 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT), Carey <carey...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

i tried to tell you, btw, that nadal isn't nearly what he was. but
here's to hoping he'll hoist that FO trophy anyhow.

bob

[AZ]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 10:39:42 PM UTC+6, Geeam wrote:
> No doubt Nadal's playing a great season so far, but I still haven't seen Nadal's trademark forehand for more than three years now. And I mean not in a single match. NEVER! The last match he clearly had it was SF Australian 2014, so I guess he must have lost it sometime in 2014. I still have no idea why that happened, but it sure happened. Rafa himself admitted it many times, but never actually gave an explanation. Of course, he's still playing brilliant forehand winners occasionally, but the big difference is that his forehand used to be rock solid with almost no miss hits at all. I'm even sure there were whole tournaments in which he did't have one single miss hit. Today against Thiem it felt like Rafa had one miss hit in EVERY game. And remember: Nadal's forehand was IMO the ONLY reason why he dominated Federer for so long. Now that Rafa's forehand lost much of its intensity and consistency, it allowed Federer to take the upper hand.

LOL. What a maroon.

Thiem did in Rome exactly what Fed did in AO, IW and MIA. He stepped inside the baseline and whacked that precise crosscourt backhand to Rafa's FH corner OVER AND OVER again. And just like against Fed, Rafa had no answer. No plan B. It's a foolproof strategy. If the whole tour catches up it to it, Rafa will be gone. Fed has shown the way.

[*skriptis]

AZ <arnab....@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

In 2017against an old Nadal with far less
retrieving abilities?
How about Djoker in 2011 doing it constantly or Soderling the
first one in a big match on clay, or Tsonga at AO to prepeak
Nadal?

Good for Federer that he's done it, brought him a slam, but he's
hardly an innovator here.

[undecided]

Easier said than done. Don't we all wish we could step in and take the opponent's shots as early as possible? The key is in the execution and in heaviness of the opponent's shot. With enough weight on Rafa's FH shot then one handed BH cannot handle the 'earlyness' reliably. When Rafa loses some steam on the FH then the One handed BH has a better chance of doing what you describe as the solution.

[The Iceberg]

yeah! Thiem did exactly the same as Fed at the AO, he played an out of sorts Nadal!

[AZ]

LOL. The same "out of sorts" Nadal who is currently leading the tour in ATP race. HAHAHAHA Good one.

[RaspingDrive]

A legacy match against an arch rival, who was steadily rising (read: peaking). A loss for Federer would have been devastating. The pressure would have been immense.

[RaspingDrive]

I notice you are trying to insinuate your 'out of sorts' idea again. After keeping quiet for fear of being laughed in your face.

[bob]

rafa is a changed man from his peak, no doubt. he's playing fairly
well this year though, i'd say about 3/4 of his peak.

bob

[Carey]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-7, Pelle Svanslös wrote:

> How do you spell tactical loss? Rafa wants to be an under doggie dog.<



cough