Nadal's decline
*skriptis
tennis player. That's a fact. Doesn't mean they can't compensate.
But they're not at their physical best past that age.
Agassi was probably overall better at 29 than at 24, but he was better
because he had better mind and better fitness.
But no way he was faster or more athletic in 1999 than in 1995.
Becker claimed in 1996 he was a better player at the time than he was when
he won Wimbledon in 1985, and it might have been true. A reasonable question
is then why didn't he win Wimbledon in 1996 (apart injury)?
Has the game moved on or he wasn't as focused/hungry as he was when he was
17?
I don't think we should say players decieve themselves when they say
something like Becker said, or when Federer said "he was about to figure out
Nadal"....
Why not believe them..we all here said "it takes only little for Federer to
beat Nadal". And in reality, he needed only a little. It's just that he
never did it.
So, being 25 and being a physical player it's no surpise Nadal has lost
quite a lot in lateral speed. As a result he doesn't chase around his
forehand as he used to, and his backhand has gone worse.
People can move him around. Djokovic does that exceptionally well.
To reverse this unpleasant situation against Djokovic two things must
happen.
Nadal has to hit his forehand deeper in general. I don't know why is that a
problem for him, but for some reason it is.
Djokovic isn't bothered by the spin/angles at all so Nadal can't spin the
ball endlessly and hope for Djokovic to crack. He won't anymore.
Nadal has a great penetrating game and imo, he has the ability to manouver
everyone. Use either angles or deep shots which are also very dificult to
return when they're hit with lot of spin.
I've noticed he often says after losing "how he played short". As if it is a
confidence issue for him. He must work that out.
Balls that land in the service box are easy prey for a guy of Djokovic's
caliber, regardless of the spin they have.
Another thing is to (again) improve his backhand, especially down the line.
That could be a tricky one.
I am not very optimistic when it comes to his backhand, but his forehand can
be improved and it will make a difference. He doesn't need to change his
shot technically, just employ different approach.
Sakari Lund
<skri...@post.t-com.hr> wrote:
>For sure, all players decline after 24 which is a peak phyiscal age for
>tennis player. That's a fact.
Tell that to you friend bob.
Pretty good points about Nadal in your post.
SliceAndDice
Nadal can hit his forehand deep, but he needs some time to set it up.
Djoker hits the ball relatively flat and lately, he has been striking
his groundstrokes with such depth that Nadal is robbed of that time.
If Djoker continues to play this time, the only way to beat him would
be to mess with his rhythm. Federer did that at the French. Tomic did
that to an extent at Wimbledon. I am not sure that is Nadal's game.
jdeluise
On 7-Jul-2011, SliceAndDice <fearsome...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If Djoker continues to play this time, the only way to beat him would
> be to mess with his rhythm. Federer did that at the French. Tomic did
> that to an extent at Wimbledon. I am not sure that is Nadal's game.
And since Djoker is also a time-waster between points, Nadal's typical
gamesmanship doesn't work on him.
Javier González
Interesting. I never considered it in that light...
SliceAndDice
kaennorsing
Absolutely, I think Djoker actually likes the time he gets with Rafa.
felangey
I think this is true....and I'm sure you will have noticed that for large
parts of the final Nadal was actively trying to press on with the
points....not towelling off and getting it done in regulation (almost). Had
a feeling that it was part of the Djoke orientated plan. If it had been Fed,
he'd have been nipping off for fag breaks between points as usual.
Superdave
wrote:
So Rafa should speed serve against Djock and waste time against Fed ?
CHEATING both ways !
number_six
> snip <
> I've noticed he often says after losing "how he played short". As if it is a
> confidence issue for him. He must work that out.
> Balls that land in the service box are easy prey for a guy of Djokovic's
> caliber, regardless of the spin they have.
>
Yes, some of those groundies were not only landing in the service box,
they were *short* in the box.
Even when Nadal did hit with good depth, the Djokovic defense was
often equal to the task, especially on the ultra-solid BH.
Several posters have noted in recent months that one thing that's
dropped off for Nadal are the "insane winners" when he is pushed way
out of position. Those winners have been an important part of his edge
over Federer. In this final, when Nadal was pushed wide, he very
seldom came up with something Novak couldn't handle.
felangey
>tennis player. That's a fact.<
Perhaps on average, but there is no way that you can decree that a fitness
goes off on the chimes of someones 25th birthday. As with most things, there
is variance....some older, some younger.
uly...@mscomm.com
25. He merely has encountered a player who has a befuddling and
superior game to him in the past 7 months. Time will tell if Djoker is
the superior player to Rafa, but his game is beating Nadal routinely
at this point.
Analogy: McEnroe was not in physical decline at all when he was 26,
it's just that Lendl figured out a way to beat him and from then, did
so almost all of the time. Same thing may happen between Djoker and
Rafa.
Patrick Kehoe
1. Rafa has lost 5 finals in a row to the best player in the world, so
he's currently working under a 'match-up' issue, insofar as being able
to claim titles by getting past Djokovic and THAT MATCH-UP issue has
morphed into a mental issue, as it always does. Wimbledon was clear
enough evidence of that development.
2. Having just re-watched IW, Miami, Madrid and Rome finals Rafa was
close in the sense of playing Djokovic tight in much of those matches
AND/OR for long periods in those matches... WITH some key results...
a) Djokovic became CLEARLY the stronger player by the Rome final in
terms of VISIBLE belief in his game being able to win... Rafa fought
hard and was very strong in many areas... but soooooooo many of the
key points went to Nole! That was a defining aspect to the matches on
clay certainly...
3. NO ONE has ever won as many long rallies against Rafa as
consistantly as Nole is currently.
4. ONLY Federer has ever strung so many winning points in clusters
against Rafa.
5. Nole's penitrating backand is not enabling Rafa to punish him with
the big forehand which Rafa uses to dominate everyone else.
6. PERHAPS Rafa's serve is being exploited a touch more now than in
the past... the second serve is being hit hard by Nole and Feds and
one suspect others will follow.
7. Drew and felangey and a few others believe Rafa has lost a step
going to east-west on his coverages, combine this with Nole's backhand
power and forehand shotmaking and it's a tough riddle for Team Rafa,
given he's not a monster server to garners a lot of free points ala
Fed or even Nole... thus his modest 'winners' totals which was always
backed up by great defense, becomes more of an issue for him, at least
against Nole, who does generate a lot of outright winners.
8. Some around here believe that Rafa's mid-match concentration is
beginning to show some signs of 'lapses' for the first time in his
career... he's struggling in the first week of majors now for the
first time... so, make of that what you will...
9. The list of his physical injuries/issues now includes, it seems,
his left foot/heal... in and of itself not too serious one could say,
but as part of a longer list that does factor in with regards to
mental fatigue/sense of physical apprehension nature for an 'elte'
athlete having to constantly deal with physical issues... does this
begin to show signs of becoming more mental scar tissue???
10. ON THE BRIGHT SIDE... is he due for an uptic, subtle resurgence,
and Nole a seasonal cooling down period? OR are both guys due to take
a bit of a downturn after racing ahead of the elite field for so long
a period this season?
P
Court_1
I agree. You can't just declare that all tennis players who reach the
age of 25 are going to start to decline. It is very variable and
depends on a lot of factors.
However, in Nadal's case I do think that he is just starting to
decline a little. He has been playing and winning big since he was a
young teenager and his grinding style of play is very hard on the
body. So his chronolgical age at 25 does not match his tennis mileage
age. I have seen a difference in Nadal in the past 6 months or so with
his defense and speed. It is a slight difference but it is there. To
me it was noticeable at the FO especially.
I do think Djokovic has improved a lot as well but I think Nadal is
just starting to decline slightly so that adds to what has been
happening between the two lately. No way Nadal is going to make it and
be playing at the top of his game past age 28. His number of years on
the tour and his style of play are indicative of a player who will
burn out quicker and start his decline at a younger age.
uly...@mscomm.com
Fed was, who effortlessly and elegantly glided across the court.
I'm merely postulating that Rafa is not in physical decline at 25.
He's still at his peak physical power, probably. But mentally and
psychologically he's starting to feel the strain. But it's all the
same in the end.
Court_1
Well, I agree that he seems to be a little mentally burnt out as well,
but in my eyes I see a slight physical decline and difference in the
way Nadal had been playing in the past 6 months or so compared to
previous years. Perhaps it is just temporary but I am thinking that he
is just starting his decline now given that he has been playing big
since he was a really young teen and he is like a bull in a china shop
when he plays which does not help matters.
Will be interesting to see what happens. Is Nadal really past his
peak? Can he find the answers to Djokovic? Can Djokovic stay
consistent now for a prolonged period of time? What will happen with
Murray and Del Potro? What about the younger guys like Tomic, etc?
Will they jump up the rankings now?
uly...@mscomm.com
me, "physical decline" is a different thing. I don't mean to be
splitting hairs. :)
For instance, Federer is definitely past his peak and is also in
physical decline. He's slower, doesn't care as much, his movement to
his FH is creaky now and his consistency is terrible. Agassi in 2002
was in the same boat, but fought like hell to stave off his
retirement.
But someone players can be past their physical peak but are not in
physical decline: Ferrer, for instance, nd he'll be 30. Muster was
probably at his physical peak at 21-23, but was not in physical
decline until very close to his retirement.
Superdave
He PUNISHES his body more than any tennis player I have ever known.
It's a miracle he is not dead already. He is an accident ready to happen.
I really did not think he could keep it up this long and I am sure he can't
for much longer.
undecided
The 'decline' started when he was hyped to go for NCYGS. He hasn't
been the same since.
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't understand how people can't see it. It is as clear as day. Now
that does not mean he is anywhere close to being finished and he could
go on to win many more slams but the slight decline has taken place
and to me it was obvious from the AO this year on but especially at
the tournaments leading up to the FO and really evident at the FO.
Playing grueling tennis and winning since he was 16 or 17 had to have
an impact. He reached superstardom so young so that means he would
peak younger too. It is only common sense.
Court_1
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 19:50:18 -0700 (PDT), "ulys...@msomm.com"
>
> <ulys...@mscomm.com> wrote:
> >Oh, I agree that Rafa is an OLD 25 for a tennis player. Far older than
> >Fed was, who effortlessly and elegantly glided across the court.
>
> >I'm merely postulating that Rafa is not in physical decline at 25.
> >He's still at his peak physical power, probably. But mentally and
> >psychologically he's starting to feel the strain. But it's all the
> >same in the end.
>
> He PUNISHES his body more than any tennis player I have ever known.
>
> It's a miracle he is not dead already.
LOL! Talk about exaggeration. :)
Superdave
oh yeah? where.
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
"It's a miracle he is not dead already." No, you are right there is
no exaggeration in that statement. :))))) I get your point though and
agree. Nadal's style is about as graceful as a bull. I am surprised he
has not shot both of his knees.
Superdave
well that's what I meant too. i was just using a little hyperbole to make the
point.
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, I pretty much got that part. :)
uly...@mscomm.com
because he was injured. You mean before that match you noticed he was
moving a bit more slowly, playing below his usual standard?
I assumed then (before Djoker's incredible streak), that he is
mentally worn down. Not burned out yet, but on the road to it. And no
wonder, with his ridiculous schedule, including Barcelona and playing
exos on multiple continents within a week.
What I have noticed is that this year, Nadal has not gone after shots
in the corners he used to routinely get to. He doesn't even bother to
try anymore. Is that physical? I don't think so, I think he's mentally
worn down.
Court_1
I think it is a bit of both--i.e mental and physical. Nadal just did
not look as sharp to me from the start of this year, but I really
noticed it from Miami on.
bob
IMO, just a guess, the miami match took a lot out of nadal. nadal had
a lead and lost it and at end of a very hard physical match, he looked
like the guy in the ring with blood dripping down the face. and i
think he felt it. doesn't mean it won't turn around by sept.
bob
Ocean
One word: mono.
Just like Fed in 2008. Maybe nole will get mono in 3 years as well.
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, Nadal was winded. How often does one see that?
Hopefully it is just a temporary blip on the radar and he can get it
together again. In tennis you never know what is going to happen for
sure.
bob
are you starting the nadal/mono rumor officially?
bob
uly...@mscomm.com
definitely had mono was Ancic. He was out for a year and never the
same. Fed probably had "mini mono" and Roddick probably never had the
slightest whiff of it... just making excuses for his anemic play.
Considering Rafa's LONG history of injuries, MTO's and all that, if he
had mono, we would already have knwon about it IONS ago.
Crisstti
>
> - Show quoted text -
And yet you claim his injuries are not real.
TT
She's having the cake and eating it.
Crisstti
What does "mono" refer to???.
Crisstti
Joe Ramirez
Yes, infectious mononucleosis. Called "glandular fever" in some places.
TT
Also known as "kissing disease".
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
My specialty! :-)
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
What does having a grinding style of tennis have to do with taking too
many MTO's to psyche out the opponent? Both can co-exist.
bob
the new england journal of medicine is renaming it "federer's disease"
in honor of the longest standing case of mono in history of mankind.
bob
TT
lol
Crisstti
>
> - Show quoted text -
A grinding style of play would make injuries more likely. You seemed
to be saying that.
Therefore, naturally there'll be more MTO's.
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, with a grinding style of play there would likely be more injuries
and I am not questioning that aspect. However, with Nadal even though
he has a grinding style of play, I personally feel that many of his
MTO's have not been because of "real" injury but rather have been to
psyche out his opponent in a display of gamesmanship.
Surely you have heard about this with Nadal before. I am not the only
one who feels that way. This is not something new.
Court_1
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 15:49:42 -0700 (PDT), Crisstti
>
That may be so, but Roger does not have a bad reputation for taking
many MTO's and faking injuries the way Nadal does. Not even close. I
don't hear the ESPN commentators talking about Roger and his fake
injuries. :)
Crisstti
If you yourself accept that he's more likely to have injuries and
therefore to have ro ask for MTO's, I don't see why you'd think any of
them (much less many of them) are him faking an injury. You haven't
presented any argument to support that claim either. In fact, you
just said you "feel" he has faked.
> Surely you have heard about this with Nadal before. I am not the only
> one who feels that way. This is not something new.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I actually hadn't, ever, heard anyone say that before I started just
recently to hang around a little in tennis forums.
Also, just that more people feel that way doesn't mean anything...
Crisstti
>
> - Show quoted text -
What bad reputation?. ESPN commentator's talk?. Surely they don't
define a player's reputation.
Interestingly, commentators in ESPN Latinamerica don't say that. I
wonder if his rep is actually different in, say, England/US and here.
jdeluise
On 11-Jul-2011, Crisstti <crisstti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you yourself accept that he's more likely to have injuries and
> therefore to have ro ask for MTO's, I don't see why you'd think any of
> them (much less many of them) are him faking an injury. You haven't
> presented any argument to support that claim either. In fact, you
> just said you "feel" he has faked.
Many feel this way because 1) it happens at key moments of the match
(typically when Nadal is down but not always) and 2) after the MTO he is up
running around like nothing is wrong.
bob
wrote:
and yet i've asked you and others to list maybe 5-10 specific
instances of when nadal took injury timeout at a time when it would
benefit him, and nobody answers.
bob
Crisstti
Yet in Wimbledon, when people made that accusation, none of those
apply. And yet that didn't stop the accusation.
The fact that people will so unreasonably insist he simulated injury
in Wimbledon makes me think they are likely to be equally unreasonable
in their assesements of the other times when Nadal had allegedly faked
an injury.
Plus the fact I've never seen anything suspicious myself, of course.
jdeluise
On 11-Jul-2011, Crisstti <crisstti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yet in Wimbledon, when people made that accusation, none of those
> apply. And yet that didn't stop the accusation.
>
> The fact that people will so unreasonably insist he simulated injury
> in Wimbledon makes me think they are likely to be equally unreasonable
> in their assesements of the other times when Nadal had allegedly faked
> an injury.
>
> Plus the fact I've never seen anything suspicious myself, of course.
All I can say is that the timing and the results of his MTOs are suspicious.
I simply can't take his word on the topic of his own injuries. We all know
he said he was not injured and that he was getting ready to prepare for
Wimbledon right after his loss to Soderling at the 2009 FO. Then a week
later he was too injured to play at all??
Crisstti
> On 11-Jul-2011, Crisstti <crissttigalda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yet in Wimbledon, when people made that accusation, none of those
> > apply. And yet that didn't stop the accusation.
>
> > The fact that people will so unreasonably insist he simulated injury
> > in Wimbledon makes me think they are likely to be equally unreasonable
> > in their assesements of the other times when Nadal had allegedly faked
> > an injury.
>
> > Plus the fact I've never seen anything suspicious myself, of course.
>
> All I can say is that the timing and the results of his MTOs are suspicious.
I don't see any reason to think they are.
And the fact that the other top players clearly do not think so either
should matter way more than what some TV commentator might say, or
than some "impression" one might get.
> I simply can't take his word on the topic of his own injuries. We all know
> he said he was not injured and that he was getting ready to prepare for
> Wimbledon right after his loss to Soderling at the 2009 FO. Then a week
> later he was too injured to play at all??
Why is that hard to believe?. Why on earth would he - or anyone -
would want to skip Wimbledon?.
Maybe he was injured but thought he could play on and didn't want to
make the injury public. Maybe he wasn't injured and just got injured
later in rtaining. Maybe his medical team didn't detect the injury or
its serioiusness after later on...
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
They showed a list of injuries on ESPN. I did not pay close attention
but I think it was a list of his injuries from prior grand slams when
he lost? Somebody on here can back me up on that if they saw it.
Now look you may want to think or believe that by ESPN commentators
talking about Nadal's suspicious injuries and MTO's that it means
nothing, but, to me it indicates that people are on to him and Patrick
McEnroe et al. had the courage to speak up about it.
If you have not heard or read about Nadal's suspicious injury claims
before you must be living under a rock, I am sorry. It has been a
topic of conversation for a long time. I am a Federer fan first and
then a Nadal fan so I like Nadal and don't hate him at all, thus
perhaps I can be more objective? I also don't think all of Federer's
injuries have been a sure thing and I am sure he has BS'd more than
once about this topic. It is Nadal however, who has a reputation out
there for using MTO's and injuries time and time again.
Superdave
wrote:
yeah but you don't get it from picking your asshole so that leaves Rafa out.
Crisstti
Sorry but that isn't at all substantial.
Chances are, in any case, that he'd have had more injuries in GS's,
since he has a more demanding style of play than other players.
Plus, didn't Nadal say after his loss to Soderling in 2009 RG (at
least that's what jdeluise said he said, I don't actually remember)
that he wasn't injured then?. Because that is the oposite of him
faking injuries to justify a loss.
> Now look you may want to think or believe that by ESPN commentators
> talking about Nadal's suspicious injuries and MTO's that it means
> nothing, but, to me it indicates that people are on to him and Patrick
> McEnroe et al. had the courage to speak up about it.
>
I actually think it's a very objective thing: John McEnroe et al.
have no way of knowing any better than you or me if Rafa has faked
injuries or not. They just simply cannot know, so what they say is
speculation, speculation that carries no more weight than your or mine
speculation, because they have no info that we don't have... and
theirs is a rather libelous speculation, BTW. Seems to me people like
McEnroe are merely proyecting here.
Like I've pointed out before, players lie Federer, Murray and Djokovic
clearly do not agree with those accusations, and they are in a
position to know way better about it.
> If you have not heard or read about Nadal's suspicious injury claims
> before you must be living under a rock, I am sorry. It has been a
> topic of conversation for a long time.
Actually, it just shows that this speculation is not a worldwide
thing. It's way more limited than you think.
I am a Federer fan first and
> then a Nadal fan so I like Nadal and don't hate him at all, thus
> perhaps I can be more objective?
Oh, but I don't hate Federer at all :). Didn't exactly like him some
years ago (didn't dislike him either). but now I've come to like him
quite a bit actually.
I also don't think all of Federer's
> injuries have been a sure thing and I am sure he has BS'd more than
> once about this topic.
I don't see any reason to think that either.
It is Nadal however, who has a reputation out
> there for using MTO's and injuries time and time again.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't agree that simply because some ESPN commentators - especially
someone like McEnroe, actually - have made this baseless accusations
mean that Nadal has this reputation.
If it'd be a widespread opinion among other professional tennis
players, then we could say he has that reputation.
Court_1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry, that is where you are wrong and naive. If you think most other
tennis pros are going to come out bash Nadal while they are still
active on tour you are crazy.
There is a code of ethics and silence that the players generally
follow. They are not going to come out and talk about PED use and
other players and their bad habits. The ATP would flip out! That is
not how it works.
The same is true about other professions--i.e. there is usually a code
of silence between doctors for instance. Lots of drug use amongst pro
doctors but they all protect one another. Same is true for malpractice
cases. When one doctor is accused of malpractice, the others generally
protect that doctor even if they know he is guilty. This is very well
known phenomenon.
drew
> The same is true about other professions--i.e. there is usually a code
> of silence between doctors for instance. Lots of drug use amongst pro
> doctors but they all protect one another. Same is true for malpractice
> cases. When one doctor is accused of malpractice, the others generally
> protect that doctor even if they know he is guilty. This is very well
> known phenomenon.
Of course. When it comes down to it we all live in glass houses.
Ironically, it is the
biggest mistakes amongst the most powerful professions that are made
with relative
impunity.
It's only after a physician loses his license that anybody will say
anything out loud. Before
that happens the most you'll get is a pregnant pause in a
conversation.
This is all self-serving silence because if a lynch mob mentality
ensues, everybody knows
that everybody hangs.
It's definitely harder to stay in a job without a union or a
professional association to cover your
ass.
And it's the same for pro tennis players. You want to point a finger
and there will be 50 fingers
pointing back at you.
But it got to be a little too cute when it came to Donkeyboy and his
match fixing. The top guys
really ought to have brought the house down on Donkeydenko and the
fxing Argies. When Nadal
and Federer denied that there was any issue whatsoever, it was very
unconvincing.
At least Murray had the balls to say it as it is...that it would be
easy to fix a match.
But MTOs are a loaded issue. All the top guys use sickness as an
excuse. Whether it
is an excuse to skip an event, drop out early, or to excuse a loss or
poor performance,
many of them do it. Nobody wants to call the other guy out for
this.
Court_1
Absolutely. When Nadal and Federer denied so swiftly that match fixing
or PED use goes on in their sport, that is like a huge red flag going
up. As if they don't know about it or perhaps participate in it, what
a joke. Lots of naive morons out there in the world who believe
anything that is put in front of them. I haven't figured out yet if
people really do not believe it or that on some level they know it
exists but just don't want a confirmation of it or address it. People
look for escape in their lives and I think escaping is the last thing
one would be doing if one admitted to oneself that so much corruption
goes on in the world.
Manco
Sakari Lund
I didn't make the claim, but I would say the most obvious case of #1
above was against Petzschner at Wimbledon 2010, when he was really
losing the match before his time-out. #2 is true almost every time.
Ted S.
> All I can say is that the timing and the results of his MTOs are
> suspicious. I simply can't take his word on the topic of his own
> injuries. We all know he said he was not injured and that he was
> getting ready to prepare for Wimbledon right after his loss to
> Soderling at the 2009 FO. Then a week later he was too injured to
> play at all??
I'm still curious as to when Nadal picked up the stress fracture. After
all, didn't he (or Toni) say that there was nothing concerning on the
MRI taken after the Del Potro match?
Did anybody actually ask Nadal this when he announced the stress
fracture?
--
Ted Schuerzinger
tedstennis at myrealbox dot com
If you're afraid of the ball, don't sit in the front row. --Anastasia
Rodionova
Patrick Kehoe
Those of us who are not in the either/or camp (the black and white
gang) tend to see Team Rafa as 'milking' his maladies/impairments...
he's strategic about everything to do with his career... he's had a
great family mentor after all... I think he's been brilliant PR
wise...
P
Patrick Kehoe
> Why is that hard to believe?. Why on earth would he - or anyone -
> would want to skip Wimbledon?.
Then why have a presser to say he would be fit enough to play
Wimbledon... why play exo after Queens event... odd; one could say
stupidity but the Nadal's are not a stupid sporting franchise...
> Maybe he was injured but thought he could play on and didn't want to
> make the injury public. Maybe he wasn't injured and just got injured
> later in rtaining. Maybe his medical team didn't detect the injury or
> its serioiusness after later on...
Right. Maybe he fibbed/lied about it all... which isn't a crime...
just a character signpost...
P
TT
> On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:50:30 GMT, jdeluise wrote:
>
>> All I can say is that the timing and the results of his MTOs are
>> suspicious. I simply can't take his word on the topic of his own
>> injuries. We all know he said he was not injured and that he was
>> getting ready to prepare for Wimbledon right after his loss to
>> Soderling at the 2009 FO. Then a week later he was too injured to
>> play at all??
>
> I'm still curious as to when Nadal picked up the stress fracture. After
> all, didn't he (or Toni) say that there was nothing concerning on the
> MRI taken after the Del Potro match?
>
> Did anybody actually ask Nadal this when he announced the stress
> fracture?
>
You're obviously confused here. Shouldn't you be making women's Tuesday
rankings or such? ;-P
There was a problem during Delpo match but MRI scan showed post match
that it wasn't a fracture. Nadal played rest of the matches using
anaesthetic injection in his foot.
Patrick Kehoe
Well of course... but certainly circumstantial, repeatedly so...
that's the point...
>
> Chances are, in any case, that he'd have had more injuries in GS's,
> since he has a more demanding style of play than other players.
Indeed...
>
> Plus, didn't Nadal say after his loss to Soderling in 2009 RG (at
> least that's what jdeluise said he said, I don't actually remember)
> that he wasn't injured then?. Because that is the oposite of him
> faking injuries to justify a loss.
That's the point... he and Toni brilliantly have used/choos to use
these 'moments' to justify certain performances via his 'health'
pronouncements... for a long while the narrative line on Rafa OR AT
LEAST one of the dominant lines was he only lost when/due to injury...
which is absurd... such was the adroit manipulation of his post-match
health reports after defeats... I'm MUCH more interested in the dead
head tennis writers who failed to do their due dilligence with regrads
to this kind of rationalizing sophistry...
>
> > Now look you may want to think or believe that by ESPN commentators
> > talking about Nadal's suspicious injuries and MTO's that it means
> > nothing, but, to me it indicates that people are on to him and Patrick
> > McEnroe et al. had the courage to speak up about it.
>
> I actually think it's a very objective thing: John McEnroe et al.
> have no way of knowing any better than you or me if Rafa has faked
> injuries or not. They just simply cannot know, so what they say is
> speculation, speculation that carries no more weight than your or mine
> speculation, because they have no info that we don't have... and
> theirs is a rather libelous speculation, BTW. Seems to me people like
> McEnroe are merely proyecting here.
Hardly... they played tennis on the ATP Tour... McEnroe won majors...
he contested within the arena he's commentating on... he endured
against the vagaries of the body and mind so his opinions and
judgements are NOT the same as anyone elses... that's silly...
> Like I've pointed out before, players lie Federer, Murray and Djokovic
> clearly do not agree with those accusations, and they are in a
> position to know way better about it.
Perhaps, they have good manners... they certainly have not declared in
the affirmative... so your point has no validation quotient...
>
> > If you have not heard or read about Nadal's suspicious injury claims
> > before you must be living under a rock, I am sorry. It has been a
> > topic of conversation for a long time.
>
> Actually, it just shows that this speculation is not a worldwide
> thing. It's way more limited than you think.
Actually, seems to be a point of criticism gathering some internal
interest even among the otherwise diffident and easily swayed tennis
commentators... though it certainly runs up awkwardly against the
"Rafa is a beast/warriro" rhetoric... then again, the media is rife
with contradictory proclaimations...
> I am a Federer fan first and
>
> > then a Nadal fan so I like Nadal and don't hate him at all, thus
> > perhaps I can be more objective?
>
> Oh, but I don't hate Federer at all :). Didn't exactly like him some
> years ago (didn't dislike him either). but now I've come to like him
> quite a bit actually.
>
> I also don't think all of Federer's
>
> > injuries have been a sure thing and I am sure he has BS'd more than
> > once about this topic.
>
> I don't see any reason to think that either.
>
> It is Nadal however, who has a reputation out
>
> > there for using MTO's and injuries time and time again.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't agree that simply because some ESPN commentators - especially
> someone like McEnroe, actually - have made this baseless accusations
> mean that Nadal has this reputation.
>
> If it'd be a widespread opinion among other professional tennis
> players, then we could say he has that reputation.
Let's be honest here... there's no way to know 'what' the other
players 'believe' unless they were asked and willing to go on the
record, instead of giving PR press conference speak... I will say as
well, Federer's been lucky to avoid that timebomb... he did admit in
2009 to being confused that Rafa pulled out after seeing him
practicing beside him the first day they were both on the grounds as
far as his tennis is concerned... he said only Rafa's demeanor was
different... that was a tip
off he said... but not his hitting session... which is fascinating in
and of itself...
P
bob
you listed once circumstance in many yr career? that's it??
bob
bob
wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:50:30 GMT, jdeluise wrote:
>
>> All I can say is that the timing and the results of his MTOs are
>> suspicious. I simply can't take his word on the topic of his own
>> injuries. We all know he said he was not injured and that he was
>> getting ready to prepare for Wimbledon right after his loss to
>> Soderling at the 2009 FO. Then a week later he was too injured to
>> play at all??
>
>I'm still curious as to when Nadal picked up the stress fracture. After
>all, didn't he (or Toni) say that there was nothing concerning on the
>MRI taken after the Del Potro match?
>
>Did anybody actually ask Nadal this when he announced the stress
>fracture?
is it possible he got an extremely minor hairline fracture, that
caused pain, but injected painkiller, then denied he had it as to not
tip his hand to SF and F opponent? if so, anything wrong with doing
such?
bob
Sakari Lund
I didn't make the claim. Those who make it can list the cases. I just
think he has a lot of time-outs, and often there doesn't seem to be
much of a problem. But I don't get the impression that it necessarily
happens at a key moment when his opponent has the upper hand. Except
in that one case and maybe others that I don't remember straight away.