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The end of the dumb stat about no slams after 30

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The Iceberg

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Jul 16, 2017, 5:17:59 PM7/16/17
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Thanks Fed for also ending the dumb stat that all the knowitalls rabbit on about how players win less slams once they're 30 zzz

Brian W Lawrence

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Jul 17, 2017, 8:42:44 AM7/17/17
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On 16/07/2017 22:17, The Iceberg wrote:

> Thanks Fed for also ending the dumb stat that all the knowitalls rabbit on
> about how players win less slams once they're 30 zzz

Have any players won more slams after 30? I can't think of any since
the early 1900s.

Maybe that wasn't what you meant?




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RaspingDrive

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Jul 17, 2017, 8:47:30 AM7/17/17
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On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 5:17:59 PM UTC-4, The Iceberg wrote:
> Thanks Fed for also ending the dumb stat that all the knowitalls rabbit on about how players win less slams once they're 30 zzz

Silly post. It's still true that slam winning frequency decreases with age, especially after 30. Federer before 30 won a majority of his slams. Federer after 30 has won about 15% of his total slams.

stephenJ

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Jul 17, 2017, 8:58:15 AM7/17/17
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On 7/17/2017 7:42 AM, Brian W Lawrence wrote:
> On 16/07/2017 22:17, The Iceberg wrote:
>
>> Thanks Fed for also ending the dumb stat that all the knowitalls
>> rabbit on
>> about how players win less slams once they're 30 zzz
>
> Have any players won more slams after 30? I can't think of any since
> the early 1900s.

Stan has won 2 of his 3 slam titles in his 30s. He's the only recent guy
(and by 'recent' i mean open era) I can think of with slams won pre-30
and post-30 with more won in their 30s, and also didn't have his slam
career interrupted by going pro in the pre-open era.

PeteWasLucky

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:08:54 AM7/17/17
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> Have any players won more slams after 30? I can't think of any since
the early 1900s.

There is huge difference between after 30 and after 35.

You know 35 is considered after 20 as well.

So let's see the numbers for 35+

Brian W Lawrence

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Jul 17, 2017, 9:30:31 AM7/17/17
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On 17/07/2017 13:58, stephenJ wrote:
> On 7/17/2017 7:42 AM, Brian W Lawrence wrote:
>> On 16/07/2017 22:17, The Iceberg wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Fed for also ending the dumb stat that all the knowitalls
>>> rabbit on
>>> about how players win less slams once they're 30 zzz
>>
>> Have any players won more slams after 30? I can't think of any since
>> the early 1900s.
>
> Stan has won 2 of his 3 slam titles in his 30s. He's the only recent guy
> (and by 'recent' i mean open era) I can think of with slams won pre-30
> and post-30 with more won in their 30s, and also didn't have his slam
> career interrupted by going pro in the pre-open era.

Indeed, I didn't think very hard :-)

Arthur Ashe
Andrés Gimeno *
Ken Rosewall *
Jaroslav Drobný

* The only two older than Rog.

There are probably a few more.

Brian W Lawrence

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Jul 17, 2017, 6:43:55 PM7/17/17
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Number of slams won at ages of 30+

30 26 (12 in OE)
31 13 (4)
32 5 (0)
33 3 (1)
34 5 (1)
------------
52 (18)

35 7 (4)
36 5 (1)
37 5 (1)
38 1 (0)
40 1 (0)
41 2 (0)
------------
21 (6)

Players with more slams after 30 than before 30

Herbert Lawford 0-1 (1887)
Michel Vacherot 0-1 (1902)
Horry Rice 0-1 (1907)
James Parke 0-1 (1912)
Ernie Parker 0-1 (1913)
Gordon Lowe 0-1 (1915)
Algy Kingscote 0-1 (1919)
Jean Samazeuilh 0-1 (1921)
Francois Blanchy 0-1 (1923)
Wilmer Allison 0-1 (1935)
Marcel Bernard 0-1 (1946)
Yvon Petra 0-1 (1946)

Andres Gimeno 0-1 (1972)
Andres Gomez 0-1 (1990)
Petr Korda 0-1 (1998)

John Hartley 0-2 (1879-80)

Jaroslav Drobny 1-2 (1952; 54)

Stan Wawrinka 1-2 (2015-16)

Norman Brookes 0-3 (1907; 11; 14)
Arthur Gore 0-3 (1901; 08; 09)

Bill Larned 2-5 (1907-11)

Andre Vacherot 0-4 (1894-96; 1901)

These are the over-30s in the Open Era

Aged 30

Rod Laver AUS 1969
Rod Laver FRA 1969 [2]
Rod Laver WIM 1969 [3]
Rod Laver USA 1969 [4] {7-4}
John Newcombe AUS 1975 {6-1}
Jimmy Connors USA 1982
Andres Gomez FRA 1990 {0-1}
Petr Korda AUS 1998 {0-1}
Andre Agassi AUS 2001
Pete Sampras USA 2002 {13-1}
Roger Federer WIM 2012
Stan Wawrinka FRA 2015

Aged 31

Arthur Ashe WIM 1975 {2-1}
Jimmy Connors USA 1983 [2] {6-2}
Stan Wawrinka USA 2016 [2] {1-2}
Rafa Nadal FRA 2017 {14-1}

Aged 33

Ken Rosewall FRA 1968

Aged 34

Andres Gimeno FRA 1972 {0-1}

Aged 35

Ken Rosewall USA 1970 [2]
Andre Agassi AUS 2003 [2] {6-2}
Roger Federer AUS 2017 [2]
Roger Federer WIM 2017 [3] {16-3}

Aged 36

Ken Rosewall AUS 1971 [3]

Aged 37 [5]

Ken Rosewall AUS 1972 [4] {4-4}


Data mostly from Wikipedia, but, surprisingly, the Daily Mail had an
interesting article:


<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-4701622/Roger-Federer-not-oldest-Grand-Slam-winner.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490>

That article ignores anyone before the Open Era - three players were
older than Muscles, Bill Larned in 1911 (38), Arthur Gore in 1908 & 09
(40 & 41) & Andre Vacherot in 1901 (41). Vacherot being the oldest.

arahim

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:49:47 PM7/17/17
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With proper rest breaks some great players in 40s should be able to compete on tour maybe even win some tournaments. Problem is these kind of players do not hang around for just competing at GS especially since they have made so much money the daily grind loses its appeal if you are going to go out in early to mid rounds. They may even qualify for challengers in their 50s if they wanted to and kept in shape. Certainly can play one match at week but perhaps not 5 matches a week. Or at least be competitive in one set matches.

Recent closest example is Haas who at 39 can still play competitively here and there.

Perhaps Mcenroe should enter a challenger to see how it goes.

It would be interesting if ATP sanctioned one off matches (so they count on the players' record and are not exhibitions) where a current ATP player plays some of the over 40 players.

Gracchus

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Jul 17, 2017, 7:58:28 PM7/17/17
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On Monday, July 17, 2017 at 4:49:47 PM UTC-7, arahim wrote:

> With proper rest breaks some great players in 40s should be able to compete on tour maybe even win some tournaments. Problem is these kind of players do not hang around for just competing at GS especially since they have made so much money the daily grind loses its appeal if you are going to go out in early to mid rounds. They may even qualify for challengers in their 50s if they wanted to and kept in shape. Certainly can play one match at week but perhaps not 5 matches a week. Or at least be competitive in one set matches.
>
> Recent closest example is Haas who at 39 can still play competitively here and there.
>
> Perhaps Mcenroe should enter a challenger to see how it goes.

I'm sure he knows better. McEnroe hit with Nadal a few years ago during Wimbledon, and he was gasping for breath after a few points.

arahim

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Jul 17, 2017, 8:06:18 PM7/17/17
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The oldest guy around on the ATP rankings is...yes he is still around Younis El Aynoui at 45 (ranked 1783). Looks like he showed up to play a couple of matches at ITF level and beat the 866th ranked Kossler (age 24).

jdeluise

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Jul 17, 2017, 11:03:58 PM7/17/17
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On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:06:16 -0700, arahim wrote:

> The oldest guy around on the ATP rankings is...yes he is still around
> Younis El Aynoui at 45 (ranked 1783)

Wow, he's still playing?

Jason White

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Jul 18, 2017, 1:08:25 AM7/18/17
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On Monday, July 17, 2017 at 5:42:44 AM UTC-7, Brian W Lawrence wrote:
> On 16/07/2017 22:17, The Iceberg wrote:
>
> > Thanks Fed for also ending the dumb stat that all the knowitalls rabbit on
> > about how players win less slams once they're 30 zzz
>
> Have any players won more slams after 30? I can't think of any since
> the early 1900s.
>
> Maybe that wasn't what you meant?
>
>

People are living longer, taking better care of their bodies. Modern medicine has helped. For tennis, maybe 35 is the new 30. And the expected breakthrough age should be bumped up also.

TT

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Jul 18, 2017, 1:37:02 AM7/18/17
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Brian W Lawrence kirjoitti 18.7.2017 klo 1:43:

> That article ignores anyone before the Open Era - three players were
> older than Muscles, Bill Larned in 1911 (38), Arthur Gore in 1908 & 09
> (40 & 41) & Andre Vacherot in 1901 (41). Vacherot being the oldest.
>

That is incorrect. First: Vacherot was not older than Gore. Second: He
played French Championships which was not slam yet and was open only to
French players.

Any case, here are my updated stats:

Oldest Slam Winners

41,5 1909 Wim Arthur Gore
40,5 1908 Wim Arthur Gore
38,7 1911 USO William Larned
37,7 1910 USO William Larned
37,4 1930 Wim William Tilden
37,2 1972 Aus Ken Rosewall
36,7 1909 USO William Larned
36,6 1914 Wim Norman Brookes
36,6 1929 USO William Tilden
36,2 1971 Aus Ken Rosewall
36,1 1887 Wim Herbert Lawford
35,9 2017 Wim Roger Federer
35,9 1970 USO Ken Rosewall
35,7 1908 USO William Larned
35,5 2017 Aus Roger Federer
35,0 1948 Aus Adrian Quist

Number of slam titles after turning 30

5 William Tilden
5 William Larned
4 Ken Rosewall
4 Rod Laver
3 Roger Federer
3 Arthur Gore
2 Andre Agassi
2 Jimmy Connors
2 Roy Emerson
2 Jaroslav Drobny
2 Frank Parker
2 Norman Brookes
2 John Hartley
2 Stan Wawrinka

Slam winning span (years)

19,0 Ken Rosewall
14,0 Roger Federer
12,0 Rafael Nadal
12,0 Pete Sampras
12,0 Adrian Quist
10,6 Andre Agassi
10,6 Boris Becker
10,0 William Tilden
10,0 William Larned
09,7 Jimmy Connors
09,6 Rod Laver
08,4 Novak Djokovic

Brian W Lawrence

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Jul 18, 2017, 5:43:45 AM7/18/17
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On 18/07/2017 06:37, TT wrote:
> Brian W Lawrence kirjoitti 18.7.2017 klo 1:43:
>
>> That article ignores anyone before the Open Era - three players were
>> older than Muscles, Bill Larned in 1911 (38), Arthur Gore in 1908 & 09
>> (40 & 41) & Andre Vacherot in 1901 (41). Vacherot being the oldest.
>>
>
> That is incorrect. First: Vacherot was not older than Gore. Second: He
> played French Championships which was not slam yet and was open only to
> French players.

I seem to have neglected to double check dates for Vacherot, he was 40
at the time of the 1901 French Closed Championship.

The winner of the first French Closed in 1891 was H Briggs who was
British. Another Brit was runner-up in 1897 (Francky Wardan). It was
open to anyone who was a member of a French tennis club, whether they
were French or not.

The four major tennis tournaments were not known as 'slams' until
the 1930s.

> Any case, here are my updated stats:
>
> Oldest Slam Winners
>
> 41,5 1909 Wim Arthur Gore
> 40,5 1908 Wim Arthur Gore
> 38,7 1911 USO William Larned
> 37,7 1910 USO William Larned
> 37,4 1930 Wim William Tilden
> 37,2 1972 Aus Ken Rosewall
> 36,7 1909 USO William Larned
> 36,6 1914 Wim Norman Brookes

I seem to have added a year to Brookes' age :-)
Thanks for that, I found a few other errors which are now corrected.

TT

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Jul 18, 2017, 6:35:15 AM7/18/17
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Brian W Lawrence kirjoitti 18.7.2017 klo 12:43:
> On 18/07/2017 06:37, TT wrote:
>> Brian W Lawrence kirjoitti 18.7.2017 klo 1:43:
>>
>>> That article ignores anyone before the Open Era - three players were
>>> older than Muscles, Bill Larned in 1911 (38), Arthur Gore in 1908 & 09
>>> (40 & 41) & Andre Vacherot in 1901 (41). Vacherot being the oldest.
>>>
>>
>> That is incorrect. First: Vacherot was not older than Gore. Second: He
>> played French Championships which was not slam yet and was open only
>> to French players.
>
> I seem to have neglected to double check dates for Vacherot, he was 40
> at the time of the 1901 French Closed Championship.
>
> The winner of the first French Closed in 1891 was H Briggs who was
> British. Another Brit was runner-up in 1897 (Francky Wardan). It was
> open to anyone who was a member of a French tennis club, whether they
> were French or not.
>
> The four major tennis tournaments were not known as 'slams' until
> the 1930s.
>

Yeah, Wikipedia says:
"French club members only event, which was called the French National
Championship"... that's until 1925 which is the year it became open for
all. So records for FO are counted from 1925 onwards.

This was the "official" international clay championship before 1925:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Hard_Court_Championships

And of course Monte Carlo had usually the world's best claycourters
since 1897 if I recall the year correctly. Also Nice, France had strong
field until WW1.

arahim

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Jul 18, 2017, 7:01:53 AM7/18/17
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Looks like he returned for a couple of challengers after a hiatus of ~6 years.

arahim

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Jul 18, 2017, 7:17:10 AM7/18/17
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It was not uncommon for some sportsmen toplay in their 40s or even 50s in the early half of the 20th century. Higher paychecks and more grinding circuits in the later half cut the careers short. George Forman was fighting heavy weight championship fights at 48 though he did take a 10 year hiatus after that loss to Ali.

heyg...@gmail.com

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Jul 18, 2017, 2:51:17 PM7/18/17
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Modern medicine is really helping. For example, w/o PRP treatments on his knees, Nadal's career might have been over 4-5 years ago.

TT

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Jul 18, 2017, 3:18:12 PM7/18/17
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Perhaps in general, although I'm not sure prp helps at all... hasn't
been proven to work better than placebo (I actually read a couple 'best'
studies). Could be actually worse than nothing since they use a huge needle.

rec.sport.tennis

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Jul 18, 2017, 3:33:17 PM7/18/17
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Agassi was 32 when he won his last slam

Brian W Lawrence

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Jul 18, 2017, 3:39:55 PM7/18/17
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On 18/07/2017 20:33, rec.sport.tennis wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 23:43:20 +0100, Brian W Lawrence wrote:

>> Aged 35
>>
>> Ken Rosewall USA 1970 [2]
>> Andre Agassi AUS 2003 [2] {6-2}

> Agassi was 32 when he won his last slam

He was, I acknowledged the error in replying to TT earlier -
although only mentioned in passing. I think I inserted
lines above his line pushing him down from 32 to 35.

heyg...@gmail.com

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Jul 18, 2017, 5:44:28 PM7/18/17
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Nadal said the first time he used that treatment that it was almost miraculous. But the second time did nothing. But I think he's also tried stem cell treatments. The point being sports medicine has advanced significantly since the 90s.
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