You can't take this away from Graf

[PeteWasLucky]

Graf won eight of nine majors before Seles won her first. Seles surpassed Graf as the No. 1 player in 1991, and won seven of eight grand slam titles during the period of 1991–1993. Graf in the end did recapture the No. 1 ranking from Seles in June 1993, after Seles was forced out of the sport due to her stabbing.

[soccerfan777]

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> Graf won eight of nine majors before Seles won her first. Seles surpassed Graf as the No. 1 player in 1991, and won seven of eight grand slam titles during the period of 1991–1993. Graf in the end did recapture the No. 1 ranking from Seles in June 1993, after Seles was forced out of the sport due to her stabbing.

And your point is? Graf was already GOAT material before Seles won a slam. She had won 9 majors in 12 attempts. Thats Maureen Connolly territory. What if Steffi fell off a horse in March 1990?

[PeteWasLucky]

> And your point is? Graf was already GOAT material before Seles won a slam. She had won 9 majors in 12 attempts. Thats Maureen Connolly territory. What if Steffi fell off a horse in March 1990?

My point is clear and it's that what Graf achieved after the stabbing will always be questioned if it'd have been achieved if the incident wouldn't have happened.

Selez was on the rise and she was simply eliminated from the Graf's path.

I was a Graf fan and simply realize the facts above.

[soccerfan777]

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 12:43:54 PM UTC-5, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> > And your point is? Graf was already GOAT material before Seles won a slam. She had won 9 majors in 12 attempts. Thats Maureen Connolly territory. What if Steffi fell off a horse in March 1990?
>
> My point is clear and it's that what Graf achieved after the stabbing will always be questioned if it'd have been achieved if the incident wouldn't have happened.

And Gandhi is always questioned why he gave money to Pakistan after the partition. Doesn't detract from the fact that Gandhi was a great man and some losers out there are always trying to sling mud at him. Same with Steffi's case. She achieved everything fair and square and was a great sportswoman and is a role model for little girls in general.

>
> Selez was on the rise and she was simply eliminated from the Graf's path.
>
> I was a Graf fan and simply realize the facts above.

I am a Graf fan and I realized that fact. I also like Gandhi and realize the fact that sad little motherfuckers exist who don't like Gandhi and/or Steffi.

So what is your point?

[StephenJ]

You are a reasonable graf fan, unlike biased ones like max and rajarock.

--
for the total eradication of the imperialists, the Chinese
people are willing to endure the first U.S. nuclear
strike. All it is is a big pile of people dying.

- Mao Tse-Tung, 1958

[*skriptis]

soccerfan777 <zepf...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/32469/did-gandhi-slee
p-naked-with-girls-when-he-was-elderly


Yuck.

Roy Moore dated virgins when he was 30 to find himself a woman,
and a future mother of his kids.

That's far more sane and good taste, than old creep laying in bed
with naked virgins to "test" himself.

We've all watched Seinfeld.
We know how the Contest ends.

--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[soccerfan777]

Fake news.

[DavidW]

On 31/05/2018 5:49 AM, StephenJ wrote:
> On 5/30/2018 12:43 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>>> And your point is? Graf was already GOAT material before Seles won a
>>> slam. She had won 9 majors in 12 attempts. Thats Maureen Connolly
>>> territory. What if Steffi fell off a horse in March 1990?
>>
>> My point is clear and it's that what Graf achieved after the stabbing
>> will always be questioned if it'd have been achieved if the incident
>> wouldn't have happened.
>>
>> Selez was on the rise and she was simply eliminated from the Graf's path.
>>
>> I was a Graf fan and simply realize the facts above.
>>
>
> You are a reasonable graf fan

As another reasonable Graf fan, I point out that the stabbing has always
been viewed differently from, say, Seles being injured in a traffic
accident or falling down the stairs and being out for the same length of
time. The Graf anti-fans are far less accepting of Graf's achievements
because Seles was stabbed than they would have been had Seles not been
playing for any other reason. It is up to them to explain why.

[Calimero]

Or to explain why a minor stabbing is an excuse for massive failure in the next 10 years while an ongoing nasty blackmail scandal isn't even an excuse for a moderate slump.


Max

[PeteWasLucky]

>So what is your point?

I made my point and you got it.

[PeteWasLucky]

> As another reasonable Graf fan, I point out that the stabbing has always
been viewed differently from, say, Seles being injured in a traffic
accident or falling down the stairs and being out for the same length of
time. The Graf anti-fans are far less accepting of Graf's achievements
because Seles was stabbed than they would have been had Seles not been
playing for any other reason. It is up to them to explain why.

There are facts, and they are Graf had her biggest competitor in Selez and Selez was eliminated by stabbing.

Now you can twist it anyway you like but it doesn't change the facts.

[DavidW]

Which does not address the point I made at all.

[bob]

the reason seles left the tour had no effect on graf's future results.
but has a lot of effect on how the world feels about it.

bob

[reilloc]

When Seles was stabbed, Graf was stabbed. Parche may as well have carved
an asterisk on Graf's back since his motive was to favor her. It wasn't
some random street crime; it was on court, targeted and he articulated
his reason.

First, I imagine that if there's any other person on Earth who would
have done anything in her power to prevent it, it's Graf. There is a
real asterisk in the books next to her name for this reason and this
reason alone. To have your record footnoted, "Monica Seles was stabbed,"
is to have a shadow of eternal doubt cast on it.

Last, talk about some crazy motherfucking fans! Graf's got 'em. Max is
cyberParche and is too motherfucking nuts to know it. He can't put that
one hand he uses to type while the other's doing the Steffi Holy Stroke
to the keyboard without being a rabid, clinical obsessive.

LNC

[Whisper]

On 31/05/2018 3:02 AM, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> Graf won eight of nine majors before Seles won her first. Seles surpassed Graf as the No. 1 player in 1991, and won seven of eight grand slam titles during the period of 1991–1993. Graf in the end did recapture the No. 1 ranking from Seles in June 1993, after Seles was forced out of the sport due to her stabbing.
>

Yes, but we don't know if Graf would have done it anyway. Imo she would
have.

Hingis won 4 out of 5 slams too & r/up in the other.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[heyg...@gmail.com]

Graf might have, or she might not have. Mostly likely they would have continued to split slam titles, cutting into Graf’s total.

[soccerfan777]

If that happened (Seles winning slams and reducing Steffis count until 1996)Steffi would not have retiree in 1999 and would have played until 2005 perhaps and won 25 slams?

[*skriptis]

soccerfan777 <zepf...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> If that happened (Seles winning slams and reducing Steffis count until 1996)Steffi would not have retiree in 1999 and would have played until 2005 perhaps and won 25 slams?
>

What about het injuries though?

[StephenJ]

On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:

I explained this to bob some time ago: If Seles had been knocked out by
a random car accident, I certainly would regard Steffi as having gotten
an extremely fortunate and unearned lucky break, and would regard her
subsequent 93-96 slams as less legitimate than if Seles had been there.
So in that sense, a legacy sense, the effect would be similar, you'd
have to view those later slams with a big grain of salt.

That said, you are correct that the stabbing does generate a different
feeling about Graf, and that has been explained before too: It's because
a fall down the stairs or a traffic accident is random, not aimed at
anyone. Yes, it might benefit some more than others, but again that
benefit would be random, just luck. What Parche did was targeted to
benefit Steffi. Whatever his mental state, he was smart and aware enough
to know who he was stabbing, and why - because Seles was the player
keeping Graf from being #1. So while Steffi had zero to do with the
stabbing, she did benefit from it in a targeted manner, and that means
moreso than she would have from a random accident.

That was emphasized recently by the revelation that Parche also stalked
ASV. As she said, if you were perceived as a threat to Graf winning
slams and being #1, you were targeted by Parche, which created a fear
that hurt her competitiveness during that time. There's nothing random
about that so the benefit to Steffi was disproportionate. It truly was
an extraordinary situation.

From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
me, still does.

[*skriptis]

StephenJ <sjo...@cox.com> Wrote in message:

But say Graf skipped FO 93 and then Sanchez would have won it?

How is that more fair? Sanchez too was a rival of both of them.

Imo, Graf really had no options. But she should have e.g. dedicate
her slam wins to Seles, do constant apologising etc.

[soccerfan777]

This is all fine. But regardless of Parche's motive, Steffi did not want that stabbing to happen. She won the slams from 1993-1999 fair and square. And Seles did return at 1995 USO. So she won 5 slams from USO 1995-FO 1999 while Seles was present. The only slams she won in Seles' absence was 6 slams from 1993 FO to 1995 Wim.

Can anyone sane that we should dock her all those 6 slams she won in Seles' absence? Even if we do that she still has 16 slams and do a GGS... so she still has a valid claim just like Lenglen, Wills have with lesser slam counts.

Most Graf would be glad that Graf is regarded in the same breath as Lenglen and Wills anyway ;-)

[reilloc]

On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:

>
> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
> Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
> another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
> benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
> slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
> would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
> Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
> me, still does.
>

Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
attack on the profession of tennis playing, called on the association
for support and guidance and mobilized the other players to unite to
acknowledge formally that Seles disability benefited more people than
just Graf. Part and parcel of this approach is establishing that
quitting playing during the recovery of your injured rival is one you
have to rule out because you don't know how long it'll take and that
it's unprofessional by definition to not give your best for what you're
being paid. This presumes that Seles would naturally agree since she is
a professional and would take the same position if Graf or any other
player were in her place.

An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us and we will not let a
criminal act destroy our profession.

(Then, you've got your motherfucking nutcases who come along years
latter and say, "...explain why a minor stabbing is an excuse for
massive failure..." But there will always be motherfucking nutcases.)

LNC

[Calimero]

On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 2:00:45 PM UTC+2, heyg...@gmail.com wrote:
> Graf might have, or she might not have. Mostly likely they would have continued to split slam titles, cutting into Graf’s total.

Without the Graf blackmail scandal Seles would have won 3 or 4 slams maximum in 1990-93.
Woulda-coulda-shoulda ...

Why are you Yanks always so much into those parallel universe woulda scenarios?


Max

[Calimero]

You really believe that with Parche and ASV?
Well, you are even dumber than I thought ...


Max


--
".... but it is true I disliked Graf." (Steve Jaros)

[soccerfan777]

Yes I dont see Graf playing at the same level as 1988 and 1989 losing USO to Sabatini in 1990 and Navratilova in 1991 and Zina Garrison in 1990 at Wimbledon. I also dont see her getting humiliated to Sanchez in 1991 FO...

I would say there would be a lot more Seles-Graf finals without the Peter Graf sex-scandal

[Calimero]

On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 4:24:54 PM UTC+2, reilloc wrote:
> On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>
> >
> > From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
> > Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
> > another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
> > benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
> > slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
> > would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
> > Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
> > me, still does.
> >
>
> Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
> attack on the profession of tennis playing,

To whom should she have „made that clear“, you dimwit?

> called on the association
> for support and guidance

Who should have „guided“ whom and how?

> and mobilized the other players to unite to
> acknowledge formally that Seles disability benefited more people than
> just Graf.

You are one of those SJW nutters?
They operate like this.

> Part and parcel of this approach is establishing that
> quitting playing during the recovery of your injured rival is one you
> have to rule out because you don't know how long it'll take and that
> it's unprofessional by definition to not give your best for what you're
> being paid. This presumes that Seles would naturally agree since she is
> a professional and would take the same position if Graf or any other
> player were in her place.
>
> An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us and we will not let a
> criminal act destroy our profession.

Why was it an attack on all of them?
Seles was the victim and no one else, your comrade Jaros is right here, for once.

> (Then, you've got your motherfucking nutcases who come along years
> latter and say, "...explain why a minor stabbing is an excuse for
> massive failure..." But there will always be motherfucking nutcases.)
>
> LNC

Says one.
A socialist and a nationalist at the same time. The most dangerous combination of them all.


Max

[StephenJ]

On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
> On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>
>>
>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
>> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
>> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
>> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
>> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
>> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>
>
> Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
> attack on the profession of tennis playing,

Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
for a set period of time - six months would have been good.

Instead, Graf just plowed ahead and capitalized on the ill-gotten gains.
It was ruthless, and un-sporting, behavior. Very difficult if not
impossible to defend.

[StephenJ]

You have no rational basis for doubting what ASV said, it comes purely
from your own pro-Steffi bias.

It's sad and embarrassing. :(

[StephenJ]

That's because you're as ignorant as Max is.

[soccerfan777]

On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 3:09:33 PM UTC-5, StephenJ wrote:
> On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
> > On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
> >> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
> >> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
> >> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
> >> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
> >> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
> >> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
> >> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
> >>
> >
> > Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
> > attack on the profession of tennis playing,
>
> Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
> She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
> for a set period of time - six months would have been good.
>

What utter garbage... will you sit out of your job for six months if some insane female friend of you stabbed your co-worker at office because the co-worker was your rival and was regularly getting Employee of the Month for last couple of years?

> Instead, Graf just plowed ahead and capitalized on the ill-gotten gains.
> It was ruthless, and un-sporting, behavior. Very difficult if not
> impossible to defend.

Man, you need to get medication... seriously something is wrong with you.

[Calimero]

Since all players profited from Seles‘s absence the tour should have stopped for 6 months. Heck, why not for more than 2 years?
Or maybe until Serena was old enough to win slams?

You are so nutty that I slowly get scared. Knowing that there are a lot of your ilk in the USA and that America is generally a very violent society, that there are a lot of guns around there, one of you crazies really might attack poor Steffi on day ...


Max

[Calimero]

Everybody with at least two brain cells knows that Parche was not the sender of those threat letters. The signature „Parche“ is no proof, you dickhead.

Jeez ...

BTW, when did ASV allegedly receive those letters?
Well ...?


Max



--
".... but it is true I disliked Graf." (Steve Jaros, rec.sport.tennis, 2004)

[Calimero]

Steffi played 11 slams between the start of blackmail scandal and The Stabbing. Won one and lost 6 against non-Seles players.

Before and after that she played 25 slams in the 87-96 period. Won 19 and lost 4 against non-Seles players.

1-6 vs. 19-4. Against non-Seles players.

Lol

[StephenJ]

You are one biased dunkoff for rejecting ASV's word. You will
shamelessly claim anything to support your silly graf fandom.

FRAUD

[soccerfan777]

And Arantxa was so scared of Parche that she beat Steffi in the 1994 USO final... lol... these Graf-hating nuts need to get a new job.

[StephenJ]

On 5/31/2018 3:21 PM, soccerfan777 wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 3:09:33 PM UTC-5, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
>>> On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>>>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>>>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
>>>> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
>>>> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
>>>> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
>>>> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
>>>> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
>>> attack on the profession of tennis playing,
>>
>> Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
>> She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
>> for a set period of time - six months would have been good.
>>
>
> What utter garbage...

Standards differ. Apparently, you have low standards of sportsmanship so
would have capitalized ruthlessly like Graf did.

For my part, I just couldn't do it. Would have felt too embarrassed to
do so.

[StephenJ]

No, Graf in particular, since Parche acted in her name and since she had
the most to gain.

The stabbing was not Graf's fault of course, but If I was in Graf's
position I would have been too ashamed to play for 5-6 months, out of
solidarity with Seles. That's how a true gentlewoman/sporstman would
have acted. Instead, Graf was pretty ruthless, eh?

[*skriptis]

Calimero <calim...@gmx.de> Wrote in message:

Did it have to be Parche for real?
Surely you're not suggesting he's the only Graf German fan?

[DavidW]

On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
> Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
> another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
> benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
> slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
> would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
> Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
> me, still does.

Disagree completely. By doing that she'd be making it even more all
about him. He would have taken out not just one top player but two. She
puts her career on hold and denies the whole tennis world her playing
just so one guy wouldn't get what he wanted? That's nuts. Better to just
to go on as normally as possible.

[soccerfan777]

And it would be massively unfair to her fans as well as tennis fans and WTA in general... none of whom had anything to do with the stabbing. She owed years of high quality tennis to tennis fans and the WTA. And most of all, WTA would have surely sued Steffi for such action since they would lose a lot of money.

[Calimero]

You have lost it completely.
I now even think you were one of those Selesians who sent death threats to poor Steffi after The Stabbing.

[PeteWasLucky]

soccerfan777 <zepf...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 3:09:33 PM UTC-5, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
>> > On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>> >> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>> >> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
>> >> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
>> >> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
>> >> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
>> >> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
>> >> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
>> > attack on the profession of tennis playing,
>>
>> Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
>> She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
>> for a set period of time - six months would have been good.
>>
>
> What utter garbage... will you sit out of your job for six months if some insane female friend of you stabbed your co-worker at office because the co-worker was your rival and was regularly getting Employee of the Month for last couple of years?

No he will not sit out of his job but he won't run fast to get the
employee of the month after the stabbing, probably he will forget
about it for few months or for good.

>
>
>> Instead, Graf just plowed ahead and capitalized on the ill-gotten gains.
>> It was ruthless, and un-sporting, behavior. Very difficult if not
>> impossible to defend.
>
> Man, you need to get medication... seriously something is wrong with you.
>
>>
>> --
>> for the total eradication of the imperialists, the Chinese
>> people are willing to endure the first U.S. nuclear
>> strike. All it is is a big pile of people dying.
>>
>> - Mao Tse-Tung, 1958
>
>

[StephenJ]

Max it sad how far you've fallen. Wait a minute, you've always been a
sorry grafanatic.

Sad that you endorse her unsportsmanlike behavior. :(

[StephenJ]

I guess we agree to disagree. To me, it was unsportsmanlike of Graf to
plow ahead. Should have shown solidarity with Seles by sitting out a
while, as someone else said it was an attack on Seles and the whole
sport. She should have been bigger than that.

[DavidW]

On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:
> On 5/31/2018 4:05 PM, DavidW wrote:
>> On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off
>>> that main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd
>>> have withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival
>>> time to recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this
>>> guy get away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and
>>> capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>
>> Disagree completely. By doing that she'd be making it even more all
>> about him. He would have taken out not just one top player but two.
>> She puts her career on hold and denies the whole tennis world her
>> playing just so one guy wouldn't get what he wanted? That's nuts.
>> Better to just to go on as normally as possible.
>
> I guess we agree to disagree. To me, it was unsportsmanlike of Graf to
> plow ahead. Should have shown solidarity with Seles by sitting out a
> while, as someone else said it was an attack on Seles and the whole
> sport. She should have been bigger than that.

Then the whole tour should have been suspended. It shouldn't have come
down to just Graf to do that. To single Graf out is to take into account
the crazy thoughts running through that nutter's brain. Your whole
perception of Graf's legacy and how you think she should have responded
all hinges on the reason Parche gave for doing it. Why are you taking
that fruitcake's pyscho thoughts so seriously?

[Whisper]

On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:

> On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.

She visited Seles in hospital.

> Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
> another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
> benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
> slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
> would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
> Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
> me, still does.
>
>

That last bit is a joke right? If we take it further maybe they should
have suspended tennis altogether until Seles decided to come back? Why
should Graf be the only one to boycott?

Seles wasn't a lock to win more slams in '93, even FO. In '92 semis she
was down 1-4 in 3rd & 2 breaks v Sabatini before winning, & edged Graf
10-8 in 3rd in final. I'd rate her chances as even with Graf for '93.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Whisper]

On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:

> On 5/31/2018 4:05 PM, DavidW wrote:
>> On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off
>>> that main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd
>>> have withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival
>>> time to recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this
>>> guy get away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and
>>> capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>
>> Disagree completely. By doing that she'd be making it even more all
>> about him. He would have taken out not just one top player but two.
>> She puts her career on hold and denies the whole tennis world her
>> playing just so one guy wouldn't get what he wanted? That's nuts.
>> Better to just to go on as normally as possible.
>
> I guess we agree to disagree. To me, it was unsportsmanlike of Graf to
> plow ahead. Should have shown solidarity with Seles by sitting out a
> while, as someone else said it was an attack on Seles and the whole
> sport. She should have been bigger than that.
>
>

That's retarded. You can't suspend a global sport because 1 player is
out. Seles' physical injuries were incredibly minor - far less than eg
tennis elbow. Graf may have won those slams even if Seles was in the
picture.

[*skriptis]

Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> Wrote in message:

> On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
>
>
> She visited Seles in hospital.

I'm not impressed with that.
There was a lot of media pressure for her to do it, so she went
but it seems she went to gloat and many have described the visit
as if she was rubbing it in. If anything it was just a PR stunt.


Why hasn't she visited Seles at home at some future time, and
invited her, both privately and publicly, to come
back?

She didn't have to stop playing herself but imo should have worked
harder.

[Calimero]

On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 12:50:14 PM UTC+2, *skriptis wrote:
> Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> Wrote in message:
> > On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
> >> On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:
> >>
> >> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
> >
> >
> > She visited Seles in hospital.
>
>
> I'm not impressed with that.
> There was a lot of media pressure for her to do it,

There was no media pressure at all.

> so she went
> but it seems she went to gloat and many have described the visit
> as if she was rubbing it in.

What an absolute asshole you are.
No one described the visit like that.
Seles told later that they both cried.

>If anything it was just a PR stunt.

Steffi is neither a Slav nor an American.

>
> Why hasn't she visited Seles at home at some future time, and
> invited her, both privately and publicly, to come
> back?

Maybe she has and didn‘t tell the media? To prevent assholes to call it a PR stunt?
Steffi tried several times to reach out to Seles, but Seles‘s management wouldn‘t even give her Monica‘s phone number. At the end Steffi understood - this thing had to be milked, books were to be written, tournament organizers to be sued,, Graf had to be the villain.

The Slav way ...

> She didn't have to stop playing herself but imo should have worked
> harder.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ----Android NewsGroup Reader----
> http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[*skriptis]

Calimero <calim...@gmx.de> Wrote in message:

> On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 12:50:14 PM UTC+2, *skriptis wrote:
>> Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> Wrote in message:
>> > On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>> >> On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
>> >
>> >
>> > She visited Seles in hospital.
>>
>>
>> I'm not impressed with that.
>> There was a lot of media pressure for her to do it,
>
> There was no media pressure at all.
>
>> so she went
>> but it seems she went to gloat and many have described the visit
>> as if she was rubbing it in.
>
>
> What an absolute asshole you are.
> No one described the visit like that.
> Seles told later that they both cried.
>
>
>>If anything it was just a PR stunt.
>
> Steffi is neither a Slav nor an American.
>
>>
>> Why hasn't she visited Seles at home at some future time, and
>> invited her, both privately and publicly, to come
>> back?
>
> Maybe she has and didn‘t tell the media? To prevent assholes to call it a PR stunt?
> Steffi tried several times to reach out to Seles, but Seles‘s management wouldn‘t even give her Monica‘s phone number.

Makes you think what did she behave or what did she say to Seles
during that hospital visit, that made her cry, and that Seles
later didn't want to talk to her?

>At the end Steffi understood - this thing had to be milked, books were to be written, tournament organizers to be sued,, Graf had to be the villain.

So now Seles is the villain for perhaps suing tournament
organisers or being displeased that the guy who stab a knife in
her body didn't go to prison, meanwhile Bouchard sues organisers
over wet floor? And from that you conclude...


> The Slav way ...

Pressing charges and suing for everything is the American way
actually.

Seles lived in America since she her early teens.

[StephenJ]

No, not the whole tour. Other players were 'involved' tangentially if at
all. Graf had a special responsibility, because Parche acted in her name
(not her fault, but still), and because she stood the most to gain from it.

IMO, Graf acted poorly. If I was in her shoes, there's just no way I
could have continued to play under the circumstances, not in the short
run, would have been unseemly to me. I would have had to stand in
solidarity with Seles for a particular period of time.

[StephenJ]

On 6/1/2018 3:20 AM, Whisper wrote:
> On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/31/2018 4:05 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>> On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>>>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>>>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off
>>>> that main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd
>>>> have withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival
>>>> time to recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this
>>>> guy get away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and
>>>> capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>>
>>> Disagree completely. By doing that she'd be making it even more all
>>> about him. He would have taken out not just one top player but two.
>>> She puts her career on hold and denies the whole tennis world her
>>> playing just so one guy wouldn't get what he wanted? That's nuts.
>>> Better to just to go on as normally as possible.
>>
>> I guess we agree to disagree. To me, it was unsportsmanlike of Graf to
>> plow ahead. Should have shown solidarity with Seles by sitting out a
>> while, as someone else said it was an attack on Seles and the whole
>> sport. She should have been bigger than that.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> That's retarded.  You can't suspend a global sport because 1 player is
> out.

I didn't say suspend a global sport - Graf should have sat out for a
while. Poor form on her part forging straight ahead, unsportsmanlike.

[StephenJ]

On 6/1/2018 1:36 AM, Whisper wrote:
> On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
>
>
> She visited Seles in hospital.

Er, not very impressive.

>> Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
>> another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival
>> to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn
>> from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover.
>> My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with
>> this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always
>> seemed unseemly to me, still does.

> That last bit is a joke right?  If we take it further maybe they should
> have suspended tennis altogether until Seles decided to come back?  Why
> should Graf be the only one to boycott?

Well, for some pretty obvious reasons: Suspending the whole tour would
have been far out of proportion and would have caused grave damage to
the careers and livelihoods of many players (and tour personnel, etc.)
who had essentially zero connection to what happened.

Graf was different of course: Parche acted in her name, and she stood

the most to gain from it.

Graf should have sat out for 6 or so months in solidarity with Seles.
That's what a good sportswoman would have done.

[Whisper]

I disagree. Tennis is a sport & not soap opera/reality tv. Graf &
Seles are there to play tennis to the best of their ability & win
tournaments. It's the fans who talk about all this other stuff like
it's a movie or soap opera.

Most players aren't friends so it would feel very weird & fake
pretending they are friends. Graf visiting her in hospital is as far as
I would go, & that is probably generous. if they were genuine friends
it would be different of course.

Muster got run over by a car & nobody begged him to come back.

I find fan behavior weird, like it's a collective mental illness or
something. The way people talk about 'deserved', 'tainted' etc makes me
lol in real life. What we think changes absolutely nothing. There are
no slams deducted or artificially gifted in some way.

[Whisper]

On 1/06/2018 10:55 PM, StephenJ wrote:
> On 5/31/2018 7:55 PM, DavidW wrote:
>> On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>
>> Then the whole tour should have been suspended. It shouldn't have come
>> down to just Graf to do that. To single Graf out is to take into
>> account the crazy thoughts running through that nutter's brain. Your
>> whole perception of Graf's legacy and how you think she should have
>> responded all hinges on the reason Parche gave for doing it. Why are
>> you taking that fruitcake's pyscho thoughts so seriously?
>
> No, not the whole tour. Other players were 'involved' tangentially if at
> all. Graf had a special responsibility, because Parche acted in her name
> (not her fault, but still), and because she stood the most to gain from it.

Seles could have been back by FO & not missed any slams. A 3cm wound is
essentially a paper cut.

>
> IMO, Graf acted poorly. If I was in her shoes, there's just no way I
> could have continued to play under the circumstances, not in the short
> run, would have been unseemly to me. I would have had to stand in
> solidarity with Seles for a particular period of time.
>
>
>

Graf did too much imo. It's more than enough to issue a single press
statement - get well & hurry back etc. These aren't your pals down at
the local tennis club.

[Whisper]

On 1/06/2018 10:56 PM, StephenJ wrote:
> On 6/1/2018 3:20 AM, Whisper wrote:
>> On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess we agree to disagree. To me, it was unsportsmanlike of Graf
>>> to plow ahead. Should have shown solidarity with Seles by sitting out
>>> a while, as someone else said it was an attack on Seles and the whole
>>> sport. She should have been bigger than that.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That's retarded.  You can't suspend a global sport because 1 player is
>> out.
>
> I didn't say suspend a global sport - Graf should have sat out for a
> while. Poor form on her part forging straight ahead, unsportsmanlike.
>
>

Seles could have come back at any time - 1 week or 20 yrs.

Seles was destined to have a short time at the top of the game, as
evidenced by her being washed up at age 21. Can you imagine Serena not
winning any more slams after age 21 if she were stabbed? Truth is Seles
was like Hingis - transitional no.1 destined to burn out quickly.

[*skriptis]

But fans like players for other reasons than tennis. For example
some people might be turned off by McEnroe due to his disgusting
behavior. Others might be drawn to Connors due to his doesn't
give a fuck attitude. Some preferred Borg coldness, etc.


You are often disgusted with e.g. Berdych seemingly not being
upset after losing, myself often annoyed with Federer's fake
sportsmanship, etc.



What bothers people is Graf's behavior and especially behavior of
Graf's fans, acting as if Seles simply had bad luck (car
accident, ruptured muscle) and Graf had nothing to do with
it.

The truth is, she had.

It was done in her name, and it was done to help her (and arguably
it did).

Both these two points matter, but even if you're going to try to
dismiss the second point, by claiming Graf didn't benefit at all
(bizarre) or you're going to say that removing Seles actually
helps everyone else on the tour, with Graf simply being
proportionally the one getting most benefit as she was the top
player (sane way to defend Graf) you still don't address the
first point.

Which is essentially an attack done in Graf's name, perverting the
sport.
It was terrorism. An attempt of either liquidation, or at best
physical intimidation. A terror.

Graf didn't distance herself enough, and as a result, her fans are
arrogant and disrespectful, precisely because she said nothing,
and acted as if a lighting stroke Seles.

[Whisper]

Not for 3cm indentation. Way out of proportion to the 'injury'.

[Whisper]

On 2/06/2018 12:44 AM, *skriptis wrote:
> Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> Wrote in message:
>> On 1/06/2018 8:50 PM, *skriptis wrote:
>>> Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> Wrote in message:
>

> It was done in her name, and it was done to help her (and arguably
> it did).
>
> Both these two points matter, but even if you're going to try to
> dismiss the second point, by claiming Graf didn't benefit at all
> (bizarre) or you're going to say that removing Seles actually
> helps everyone else on the tour, with Graf simply being
> proportionally the one getting most benefit as she was the top
> player (sane way to defend Graf) you still don't address the
> first point.
>
> Which is essentially an attack done in Graf's name, perverting the
> sport.
> It was terrorism. An attempt of either liquidation, or at best
> physical intimidation. A terror.
>
> Graf didn't distance herself enough, and as a result, her fans are
> arrogant and disrespectful, precisely because she said nothing,
> and acted as if a lighting stroke Seles.
>

Graf was an introvert & very uncomfortable in the spotlight. She looked
terrible playing the slams in '93 (because of what happened to Seles) &
should have lost at FO & Wimbledon as she was getting killed anyway
(Mary Jo & Novotna had her on the ropes). If the stabbing hadn't
happened she would have played freely & at a much higher level.

I expected Seles to play FO, & then Wim & USO. Why? Because we all
knew the wound was very minor & there was no physical reason she
couldn't play. It might be harsh for me to say, but I admire mentally
tough players a lot more than sensitive types who take forever to
recover 'mentally'.

[Calimero]

On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 4:34:45 PM UTC+2, Whisper wrote:
> On 1/06/2018 10:55 PM, StephenJ wrote:
> > On 5/31/2018 7:55 PM, DavidW wrote:
> >> On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:
> >>
> >> Then the whole tour should have been suspended. It shouldn't have come
> >> down to just Graf to do that. To single Graf out is to take into
> >> account the crazy thoughts running through that nutter's brain. Your
> >> whole perception of Graf's legacy and how you think she should have
> >> responded all hinges on the reason Parche gave for doing it. Why are
> >> you taking that fruitcake's pyscho thoughts so seriously?
> >
> > No, not the whole tour. Other players were 'involved' tangentially if at
> > all. Graf had a special responsibility, because Parche acted in her name
> > (not her fault, but still), and because she stood the most to gain from it.
>
> Seles could have been back by FO & not missed any slams. A 3cm wound is
> essentially a paper cut.
>
>

1,5 cm, please don‘t exaggerate!

She would gave missed FO and Wim probably.

> >
> > IMO, Graf acted poorly. If I was in her shoes, there's just no way I
> > could have continued to play under the circumstances, not in the short
> > run, would have been unseemly to me. I would have had to stand in
> > solidarity with Seles for a particular period of time.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Graf did too much imo. It's more than enough to issue a single press
> statement - get well & hurry back etc. These aren't your pals down at
> the local tennis club.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://

[Calimero]

It wasn‘t done in her name, are you nuts?

> Both these two points matter, but even if you're going to try to
> dismiss the second point, by claiming Graf didn't benefit at all
> (bizarre) or you're going to say that removing Seles actually
> helps everyone else on the tour, with Graf simply being
> proportionally the one getting most benefit as she was the top
> player (sane way to defend Graf) you still don't address the
> first point.
>
> Which is essentially an attack done in Graf's name, perverting the
> sport.
> It was terrorism. An attempt of either liquidation, or at best
> physical intimidation. A terror.
>
> Graf didn't distance herself enough, and as a result, her fans are
> arrogant and disrespectful, precisely because she said nothing,
> and acted as if a lighting stroke Seles.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ----Android NewsGroup Reader----
> http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Steffi fans only start to act arrogantly when Selesian and patriotic US tennis fan try to denigrate Steffi.

[*skriptis]

But this isn't about Seles at all. Who cares how she reacted, and
was she or wasn't she sufficiently mentally tough.

[*skriptis]

Calimero <calim...@gmx.de> Wrote in message:

See? This is what I'm talking about.

If she had been more outspoken, this wouldn't have been happening.

But her relative silence was a statement of sorts too. It was a
cue, a signal, that her fans or should I call them dogs,
understood.

[Whisper]

I'm a big fan of mentally tough people. The people who live through all
kind of horrors & shrug it off & carry on the best they can. Truly
inspirational. Seles' physical injuries were essentially nothing, but
mental scars apparently huge.

For me there's a world of difference when someone can't physically come
back (eg loses limbs) v mental reasons.

[guypers]

If Seles had come back in 6 months, would have won more slams, like 22,Graf 15 in total, may be a #4 behind Serena, Seles, MN and CE!

[PeteWasLucky]

> 'm a big fan of mentally tough people. The people who live through all
kind of horrors & shrug it off & carry on the best they can. Truly
inspirational. Seles' physical injuries were essentially nothing, but
mental scars apparently huge.

For me there's a world of difference when someone can't physically come
back (eg loses limbs) v mental reasons.

So your genius thinks that Selez didn't come back because of the injury?

[soccerfan777]

You know if you spell her last name correct, it might show some respect for the ex-champion. You Graf-haters have less respect for Seles than us Graf-fans.

[StephenJ]

A - level post.

The more I think about it, the more it's clear that Graf really should
have made a dramatic gesture of solidarity with Seles, staying out 6
months was appropriate.

It's hard to get around the notion that Graf displayed poor
sporstmanship by just forging ahead and capitalizing on Seles's absence.

I know I couldn't have done it.

[StephenJ]

Look, I get that professional tennis is a business, it's ruthless. But
as in golf, there still has to be some place the concept of a
gentleman's game, an elevated sense of sportsmanship. It's what helps
give tennis a more civilized veneer than other sports.

By capitalizing on Seles's attack, Graf blew a big chance to show some
character, some elevated sense of propriety. Unfortunately, her actions
came from the same place where she blamed media for losses to Seles in
1990. Uncouth conduct.

[Calimero]

> I know I couldn't have done it. ...


Lol, how would you have known at that point that Seles would be as US citizen from 1995 on?

[Calimero]

> gentleman's game, an elevated sense of sportsmanship. ...


THAT from someone like you, one of the most vicious tennis haters I have ever met.
Well, everybody is a comedian ...

[Whisper]

What I know for certain is there are many people in this world who would
have come back very quickly after a physical wound like that & not
missed any slams, or even back the same day or next day. That means
what's in question here is how an individual reacts to a given situation
on a psychological level, not how physically debilitating an injury is
(of no consequence is the huge consensus).

[PeteWasLucky]

> What I know for certain is there are many people in this world who would
have come back very quickly after a physical wound like that & not
missed any slams, or even back the same day or next day. That means
what's in question here is how an individual reacts to a given situation
on a psychological level, not how physically debilitating an injury is
(of no consequence is the huge consensus).

How many professional women tennis players do you know got stabbed and came back quickly?

[StephenJ]

Nobody in the USA has ever regarded Seles as a "USA" tennis player. Her
results are credited to Yugoslavia/Serbia.

You are so used to German bias that you project it on to everyone else.

[StephenJ]

Graf should have shown class and sportsmanship and sat out in solidarity
with Seles for some period of time. Given your behavior on this forum,
it's no surprise at all that you have have no ability to grasp this.

[Calimero]

How many professional woman tennis players do you know whose family was blackmailed and didn‘t slump?

[Calimero]

That from you, being a fan of the most classless players of all time ...

MAGA!!

[*skriptis]

I agree, I love mental strength. But this isn't thread about Seles, no?

[StephenJ]

Sad classless Max. :(

[bob]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 08:57:00 -0500, StephenJ <sjo...@cox.com> wrote:

>On 5/30/2018 5:04 PM, DavidW wrote:

>> On 31/05/2018 5:49 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>> On 5/30/2018 12:43 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>>>>> And your point is? Graf was already GOAT material before Seles won a
>>>>> slam. She had won 9 majors in 12 attempts. Thats Maureen Connolly
>>>>> territory. What if Steffi fell off a horse in March 1990?
>>>>
>>>> My point is clear and it's that what Graf achieved after the stabbing
>>>> will always be questioned if it'd have been achieved if the incident
>>>> wouldn't have happened.
>>>>
>>>> Selez was on the rise and she was simply eliminated from the Graf's
>>>> path.
>>>>
>>>> I was a Graf fan and simply realize the facts above.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are a reasonable graf fan
>>
>> As another reasonable Graf fan, I point out that the stabbing has always
>> been viewed differently from, say, Seles being injured in a traffic
>> accident or falling down the stairs and being out for the same length of
>> time. The Graf anti-fans are far less accepting of Graf's achievements
>> because Seles was stabbed than they would have been had Seles not been
>> playing for any other reason. It is up to them to explain why.

>I explained this to bob some time ago: If Seles had been knocked out by
>a random car accident, I certainly would regard Steffi as having gotten
>an extremely fortunate and unearned lucky break, and would regard her
>subsequent 93-96 slams as less legitimate than if Seles had been there.
>So in that sense, a legacy sense, the effect would be similar, you'd
>have to view those later slams with a big grain of salt.
>That said, you are correct that the stabbing does generate a different
>feeling about Graf, and that has been explained before too: It's because
>a fall down the stairs or a traffic accident is random, not aimed at
>anyone. Yes, it might benefit some more than others, but again that
>benefit would be random, just luck. What Parche did was targeted to
>benefit Steffi. Whatever his mental state, he was smart and aware enough
>to know who he was stabbing, and why - because Seles was the player
>keeping Graf from being #1. So while Steffi had zero to do with the
>stabbing, she did benefit from it in a targeted manner, and that means
>moreso than she would have from a random accident.
>That was emphasized recently by the revelation that Parche also stalked
>ASV. As she said, if you were perceived as a threat to Graf winning
>slams and being #1, you were targeted by Parche, which created a fear
>that hurt her competitiveness during that time. There's nothing random
>about that so the benefit to Steffi was disproportionate. It truly was
>an extraordinary situation.

> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.

>Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
>another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
>benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
>slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
>would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
>Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
>me, still does.

i can understand that feeling. but we can never lump graf in with
tonya harding, something you almost do.

as for the actual # count, it wouldn't matter if it was a random
accident or a targeted attack.

as for the feelings of the non-grafans, i understand the difference,
always did.

bob

[bob]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 09:24:39 -0500, reilloc <rei...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>
>>
>> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
>> Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
>> another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
>> benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
>> slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
>> would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
>> Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
>> me, still does.
>>
>

>Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
>attack on the profession of tennis playing, called on the association
>for support and guidance and mobilized the other players to unite to
>acknowledge formally that Seles disability benefited more people than
>just Graf. Part and parcel of this approach is establishing that
>quitting playing during the recovery of your injured rival is one you
>have to rule out because you don't know how long it'll take and that
>it's unprofessional by definition to not give your best for what you're
>being paid. This presumes that Seles would naturally agree since she is
>a professional and would take the same position if Graf or any other
>player were in her place.
>
>An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us and we will not let a
>criminal act destroy our profession.

an excellent post, i couldn't agree more. as a grafan.


>(Then, you've got your motherfucking nutcases who come along years
>latter and say, "...explain why a minor stabbing is an excuse for
>massive failure..." But there will always be motherfucking nutcases.)
>
>LNC

bob

[bob]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 15:09:34 -0500, StephenJ <sjo...@cox.com> wrote:

>On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
>> On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
>>> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
>>> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
>>> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
>>> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
>>> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>>
>>
>> Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
>> attack on the profession of tennis playing,
>

>Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
>She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
>for a set period of time - six months would have been good.
>
>Instead, Graf just plowed ahead and capitalized on the ill-gotten gains.
>It was ruthless, and un-sporting, behavior. Very difficult if not
>impossible to defend.

i believe she once visited seles, and seles more or less dissed her,
and i believe that is the reason why.

bob

[bob]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 15:43:11 -0500, StephenJ <sjo...@cox.com> wrote:

>On 5/31/2018 3:21 PM, soccerfan777 wrote:

>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 3:09:33 PM UTC-5, StephenJ wrote:
>>> On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
>>>> On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>>>>> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>>>>> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
>>>>> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
>>>>> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
>>>>> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
>>>>> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
>>>>> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
>>>> attack on the profession of tennis playing,
>>>
>>> Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
>>> She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
>>> for a set period of time - six months would have been good.
>>>
>>

>> What utter garbage...
>
>Standards differ. Apparently, you have low standards of sportsmanship so
>would have capitalized ruthlessly like Graf did.
>
>For my part, I just couldn't do it. Would have felt too embarrassed to
>do so.

don't expect max or raja to understand. there's something wrong with
them, something very wrong. i mean this sincerely.

i get your pt about the "sitting out." not sure i could or would do
that, but it's possible.

i most assuredly would've brought more light to it. if i did play, i
would've won a black arm band, or some such, to let the whole world
know "something is amiss" even though we're still playing and talk
about it pretty much all the time. i'd have also begged seles to come
back pretty much every day.

bob

[bob]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 13:23:26 -0700 (PDT), Calimero
<calim...@gmx.de> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 10:09:33 PM UTC+2, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/31/2018 9:24 AM, reilloc wrote:
>> > On 5/31/2018 8:57 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>  From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to
>> >> Seles. Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big
>> >> rivalry with another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that
>> >> main rival to benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have
>> >> withdrawn from the slams at least that year, to give my rival time to
>> >> recover. My attitude would have been "I'm not letting this guy get
>> >> away with this". But Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That
>> >> always seemed unseemly to me, still does.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Graf should have made it absolutely clear that the Parch incident was an
>> > attack on the profession of tennis playing,
>>
>> Yes, Graf's response was very disappointing to any sportsman and woman.
>> She should have sat out in solidarity with Seles, not indefinitely but
>> for a set period of time - six months would have been good.
>>

>> Instead, Graf just plowed ahead and capitalized on the ill-gotten gains.
>> It was ruthless, and un-sporting, behavior. Very difficult if not
>> impossible to defend.
>>

>> --
>> for the total eradication of the imperialists, the Chinese
>> people are willing to endure the first U.S. nuclear
>> strike. All it is is a big pile of people dying.
>>
>> - Mao Tse-Tung, 1958
>
>

>Since all players profited from Seles‘s absence the tour should have stopped for 6 months. Heck, why not for more than 2 years?
>Or maybe until Serena was old enough to win slams?
>
>You are so nutty that I slowly get scared. Knowing that there are a lot of your ilk in the USA and that America is generally a very violent society, that there are a lot of guns around there, one of you crazies really might attack poor Steffi on day ...

the attacking was done in germany. worry about there first.

bob

[bob]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:05:04 +1000, DavidW <n...@email.provided> wrote:

>On 31/05/2018 11:57 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>> From my POV, Steffi was also pretty crass in how she reacted to Seles.
>> Personally, if I was a champ like Steffi locked in a big rivalry with
>> another top player, and if a fan of mine knocked off that main rival to
>> benefit me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I'd have withdrawn from the
>> slams at least that year, to give my rival time to recover. My attitude
>> would have been "I'm not letting this guy get away with this". But
>> Steffi just plowed ahead and capitalized. That always seemed unseemly to
>> me, still does.
>

>Disagree completely. By doing that she'd be making it even more all
>about him. He would have taken out not just one top player but two. She
>puts her career on hold and denies the whole tennis world her playing
>just so one guy wouldn't get what he wanted? That's nuts. Better to just
>to go on as normally as possible.

go on as if nothing happened. nope.

bob

[bob]

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 00:41:01 +1000, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/06/2018 10:56 PM, StephenJ wrote:
>> On 6/1/2018 3:20 AM, Whisper wrote:
>>> On 1/06/2018 10:13 AM, StephenJ wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I guess we agree to disagree. To me, it was unsportsmanlike of Graf
>>>> to plow ahead. Should have shown solidarity with Seles by sitting out
>>>> a while, as someone else said it was an attack on Seles and the whole
>>>> sport. She should have been bigger than that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's retarded.  You can't suspend a global sport because 1 player is
>>> out.
>>
>> I didn't say suspend a global sport - Graf should have sat out for a
>> while. Poor form on her part forging straight ahead, unsportsmanlike.
>>
>>
>
>
>Seles could have come back at any time - 1 week or 20 yrs.
>
>Seles was destined to have a short time at the top of the game, as
>evidenced by her being washed up at age 21. Can you imagine Serena not
>winning any more slams after age 21 if she were stabbed? Truth is Seles
>was like Hingis - transitional no.1 destined to burn out quickly.


that's very possible, and at the time i thought seles might get fat
anyway. in fact even though she showed no signs of slowing down before
stabbing, very possible in next 1, 2, 3 yrs she would fall off. noboby
can know.

bob

[*skriptis]

bob <b...@bob.com> Wrote in message:

Agreed.

[Calimero]

Bob logic.

[Calimero]

Your brain is fried?

[Calimero]

That would have been the cheapest virtue signalling possible, lol!

Let me guess - you are American?

Wait, what about an open letter to the judges ... ?
Or establish a charity for young stabbing victims??

My, oh my, I can‘t believe your shallow attitude to everything. Don‘t you have any decency?

> to let the whole world
> know

Steffi is no American, when do you finally accept that?
Show boating is not her style. That‘s why she is so popular in the whole world (except Serbia and USA).

> "something is amiss" even though we're still playing and talk
> about it pretty much all the time. i'd have also begged seles to come
> back pretty much every day.
>
>

Lolol!

[StephenJ]

No, I make zero connection between Graf and Harding, though back in 94 i figured whoever attacked Kerrigan was probably inspired by Parche.

IMO, Graf should have sat out for about six months in solidarity with Seles. That is what a true sportswoman would have done.

[StephenJ]

Yes, Graf's response to what happened to Seles was cold and callous, to
say the least. She just carried right on and capitalized.

[StephenJ]

Steffi should have sat out in solidarity for 6 months, or until Seles
returned, whichever came first. That would have been class and
sportsmanship on her part.

But probably too much to expect from same player who apparently told
papers in 90 she was losing to Seles because of daddy sex?

Probably.

[Calimero]

> returned, whichever came first. ...


Lol!
And it is better to lose in the first round in a slam than in the final?

Dementia getting you finally, old man ... ?

[StephenJ]

Sad. You seem to have no conception of tennis as a gentleman's game.

[Calimero]

I don‘t think you have ever played tennis yourself.
And you know nothing about sports and what sports persons think. Your „better-lose-in-early-rounds theory“ was the last proof.

[StephenJ]

Everyone knows that for a champ, losing in the finals is the worst place
to lose. You remember those losses forever, losses in earlier rounds are
shrugged off.

But back to the point: Graf was a poor sportswoman for forging ahead and
capitalizing on Parche's deed. That conclusion is inescapable.


--
there is no doubt that the black-white
power struggle in south africa is but a
microcosm of the global confrontation
between the third world and the rich white
nations of the world.

- Steve Biko

[Calimero]

But legacy-wise a final loss is far, far better than a loss in early rounds.

> But back to the point: Graf was a poor sportswoman for forging ahead and
> capitalizing on Parche's deed. That conclusion is inescapable.

When people like you call someone "poor sportswoman" I know that that woman must have been a saint. I don't see how Steffi "capitalized on Parche's deed".

Is it Steffi's fault that she coped better with those long and nasty scandals (blackmail, tax evasion) than Seles with a minor stabbing?

[StephenJ]

Graf exhibited poor sportsmanship by exploiting the Seles stabbing.
That's what she did, not me.

[Calimero]

Didn't Seles exploit the Steffi blackmailing.

IMO, the tennis gods even everything out - Steffi got a blackmail scandal and Seles a stabbing.
Is it Steffi's fault that Seles was not as tough as her?


Max