who had the best year

[bob]

forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
determine it?

i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(

2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.

opinions?

bob

[Carey]

One wouldn't necessarily be wrong to call it a toss up, so far, but Fed did go 3-0 against his closest rival. Hoping they meet at YEC, and the Great Man makes it a clean sweep for 2017. :)

[PeteWasLucky]

> opinions?

Your master has been saying for years that winning Wimbledon tops any other achievement, right?

What about a second slam in addition to the 8th wimbledon?

[Court_1]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:


> forget the computer,

Why forget the computer? Nadal's ahead by 2000 points. Two slams, 1F, 4R + 2 Masters 1000s > Two slams, 1QF, absence at FO + 2 Masters 1000s. It's close but Nadal's had the better year so far. Federer will have to win the WTF to make it slightly better IMO. It looks to me like Nadal will end ye#1. I think Federer stated that he's not going to chase it because Nadal's too far ahead.

[MBDunc]

IMO FO + USO very slightly ahead Wimb + AO, but it is practically toss up.

Let YEC decide.

.mikko

[PeteWasLucky]

> IMO FO + USO very slightly ahead Wimb + AO, but it is practically toss up.

7543

Federer 10 Nadal 9

[TT]

Nadal must have been the better player considering that Fed didn't have
balls to even try and face Rafa on clay. Probably tanked at USO for same
reason, or that's at least what he claimed.

[TT]

10th RG > 8th Wimbledon

[TT]

:)

[PeteWasLucky]

> Nadal must have been the better player considering that Fed didn't have
balls to even try and face Rafa on clay. Probably tanked at USO for same
reason, or that's at least what he claimed.

Is this why nadal tanked to Muller?

[kaennorsing]

Op zaterdag 30 september 2017 20:03:19 UTC+2 schreef Court_1:

> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>
>
> > forget the computer,
>
> Why forget the computer? Nadal's ahead by 2000 points. Two slams, 1F, 4R + 2 Masters 1000s > Two slams, 1QF, absence at FO + 2 Masters 1000s. It's close but Nadal's had the better year so far. Federer will have to win the WTF to make it slightly better IMO. It looks to me like Nadal will end ye#1. I think Federer stated that he's not going to chase it because Nadal's too far ahead.

Correct on all points. Rafa's ahead and unlikely to relinquish his position but Fed can edge him with a YEC title. That plus the h2h and the historically weak USO draw (vs the historically tough AO draw) will supersede whatever the computer's saying.

[kaennorsing]

Op zaterdag 30 september 2017 20:24:46 UTC+2 schreef MBDunc:

Not if you factor in the opposition both guys faced in AO and USO respectively. It's a blow-out.

[RaspingDrive]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:

Plus, you are also on record saying 7543 is the best available 'mathematical' formula, so 2017 should not be all that close for you. As for me, they are both level in 2017. On second thoughts, maybe one should also consider the following: When Federer got his share of two slams he had to fight very hard for one of them with Nadal blocking his path. Nadal had no such problems. 2 wins and one F (a narrow loss there) triumphs 2 wins.

[RaspingDrive]

With such a good year in H2H over Nadal, he had the chance to put to rest all doubts at USO but fizzled out. The doubts will continue at least until the next meeting at a slam final.

[RaspingDrive]

bob is ambivalent about mathematics.

[RaspingDrive]

Correct.

[RaspingDrive]

Nadal is always weak at Wimbledon early rounds.

[bob]

not sure about anyone else, but i've always said winning wimbledon +
any other slam = best year. this year it really is pretty close,
nadal's FO and USO wins were very convincing.

pretty much is a tossup.

bob

[bob]

i don't think fed will chase the computer either. but again, that's
the computer. fed's 3-0 H2H combined with a 2 slam yr including
Wimbledon makes it very very close. toss up.

bob

[bob]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 14:58:35 -0700 (PDT), RaspingDrive
<raspin...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
>> determine it?
>>
>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
>>
>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
>>
>> opinions?
>>
>> bob
>
>Plus, you are also on record saying 7543 is the best available 'mathematical' formula,

...for something that is not mathematical in nature.

> so 2017 should not be all that close for you. As for me, they are both level in 2017. On second thoughts, maybe one should also consider the following: When Federer got his share of two slams he had to fight very hard for one of them with Nadal blocking his path. Nadal had no such problems. 2 wins and one F (a narrow loss there) triumphs 2 wins.

good point about that losing F. however, 3-0 in H2H. very close.
legacy wise, i believe fed cemented GOAT achievement #s.

bob

[heyg...@gmail.com]

It's a toss up, but Fed's wins offer the bigger legacy boost. Grew the total slam record and achieved W king. Huge.

[Whisper]

It is close. The raw 7543 gives it to Fed 10v9, but Rafa made 3 slam
finals & led 3-1 in 5th so easily could have won 3 slams. Rafa's
historic 10th FO, Fed's historic 8th Wimbledon - 2 really massive legacy
achievements. Rafa will also be yr-end No.1.

Probably most people would give it to Rafa, but Fed won't be
disappointed with his yr that's for sure.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[PeteWasLucky]

> led 3-1 in 5th

Oh true, we forgot this, lol :)

Let me say it straight, winning the 8th wimbledon is the ultimate achievement, nothing tops this, absolutely.

I wish Dave was around, he would have been very happy, he would have said, Federer is the champion of The Championships.

[Whisper]

7543 determines who had the best yr in terms of 'slams won', so that
goes to Fed by the narrowest margin possible 10 v 9.

However yr-end No.1 is also a very big achievement and 'counts' in
legacy stakes. Rafa also nearly won a 3rd slam final for the yr,
losing from 3-1 up in 5th in AO.

Fed won the biggest title, but Rafa won 2 blue-chips.

On balance the yr goes to Rafa I would reckon.

[Whisper]

Yes, Fed pips it in terms of slams won -but just barely.

If we consider other achievements;

blue chip slams won
slam r/up
yr-end no.1

Then I guess Rafa pips Fed overall.

[Whisper]

FO/USO are 2 blue chip slams so that's a defensible position. YEC could
be interesting especially if it's Fed v Rafa in final. Rafa has yr-end
no.1 & 3 slam finals over Fed - if he also wins YEC then there will be
no arguments?

:)

[bob]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 17:40:12 -0700 (PDT), PeteWasLucky
<waleed...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> led 3-1 in 5th
>
>Oh true, we forgot this, lol :)
>
>Let me say it straight, winning the 8th wimbledon is the ultimate achievement, nothing tops this, absolutely.

i'm sad i have to agree on 2 counts.
1. it was federer's personal dream.
2. he's the wimbledon king now.

it was huge. shame nobody did crap at wimbledon. but for the overall
year, rafa's right there with him - his USO was a big non clay slam
for him too.

>I wish Dave was around, he would have been very happy, he would have said, Federer is the champion of The Championships.

bob

[PeteWasLucky]

> i'm sad i have to agree on 2 counts.

Why are you sad?

[bob]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 18:11:40 -0700 (PDT), PeteWasLucky
<waleed...@gmail.com> wrote:

because i wanted sampras to have the wimbledon record and rafa to have
the slam record. fed's going to have, and keep, them both.

bob

[PeteWasLucky]

> because i wanted sampras to have the wimbledon record and rafa to have
the slam record. fed's going to have, and keep, them both.

I understand the Sampras case, but the Rafa's case, is this because you like Rafa or because you hate Federer?

[bob]

i don't hate federer, surely there are other athletes i dislike far
more. i like rafa better. but hey, fed brought the goods this year.
IMO it was fortunate that djok and murray laid an egg, but that's part
of the game.

bob

[PeteWasLucky]

> i don't hate federer, surely there are other athletes i dislike far
more. i like rafa better. but hey, fed brought the goods this year.
IMO it was fortunate that djok and murray laid an egg, but that's part
of the game.

These great athletes kept me motivated to stay in shape, to be fit just to be able to play tennis.

I love playing tennis more than anything in my life. My love for tennis is a big problem and it causes lots of problems in my personal relationships.

Boris Becker got me to start playing tennis, to run miles and miles, Lendl as well, then sampras for many years, and then thanks God for having Federer, this is when I decided to play effortless tennis, study his mechanics and swings, enjoyed his tennis and played similar tennis for 15 years.

It's been a blessing (for me :) ) to witness him and witness his game and career.

He will be missed greatly (for me again).

[Court_1]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:43:39 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 11:03:17 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
>
>

> >On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> >
> >
> >> forget the computer,
> >
> >Why forget the computer? Nadal's ahead by 2000 points. Two slams, 1F, 4R + 2 Masters 1000s > Two slams, 1QF, absence at FO + 2 Masters 1000s. It's close but Nadal's had the better year so far. Federer will have to win the WTF to make it slightly better IMO. It looks to me like Nadal will end ye#1. I think Federer stated that he's not going to chase it because Nadal's too far ahead.
>
> i don't think fed will chase the computer either. but again, that's
> the computer. fed's 3-0 H2H combined with a 2 slam yr including
> Wimbledon makes it very very close. toss up.
>
> bob

Nadal's had the better year so far unless Fed wins the WTF. Outside of the two slam wins each for them, Nadal's gone further at the other slams.

[Court_1]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:29:26 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:

>
> i don't hate federer,

Oh shut up! You don't hate Federer but you were sad and hated that he won his 8th Wimbledon. You take every opportunity possible to try and marginalize Federer and his accomplishments. Own up to your dislike of the man. You dislike Federer more than you like Nadal. That's obvious to all.

[John Liang]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:35:00 AM UTC+11, Whisper wrote:
> On 1/10/2017 10:43 AM, bob wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 11:03:17 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
> > <olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> forget the computer,
> >>
> >> Why forget the computer? Nadal's ahead by 2000 points. Two slams, 1F, 4R + 2 Masters 1000s > Two slams, 1QF, absence at FO + 2 Masters 1000s. It's close but Nadal's had the better year so far. Federer will have to win the WTF to make it slightly better IMO. It looks to me like Nadal will end ye#1. I think Federer stated that he's not going to chase it because Nadal's too far ahead.
> >
> > i don't think fed will chase the computer either. but again, that's
> > the computer. fed's 3-0 H2H combined with a 2 slam yr including
> > Wimbledon makes it very very close. toss up.
> >
> > bob
> >
>
>
>
> It is close. The raw 7543 gives it to Fed 10v9, but Rafa made 3 slam
> finals & led 3-1 in 5th so easily could have won 3 slams. Rafa's
> historic 10th FO, Fed's historic 8th Wimbledon - 2 really massive legacy
> achievements. Rafa will also be yr-end No.1.

But we need to remember it is the final score that get remembered not score of middle of fifth set, beside Federer was the dominating player in that final sets, he had Nadal under the pump after been a break down, it was Nadal who cracked under the consistent pressure from Federer on every single service game he had in that fifth set. The flip side of the coin is Federer could have won that set 6:1 or 6:2.

[MBDunc]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 3:43:41 AM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
> Yes, Fed pips it in terms of slams won -but just barely.
>
> If we consider other achievements;
>
> blue chip slams won
> slam r/up
> yr-end no.1
>
> Then I guess Rafa pips Fed overall.

If slam r/ups suddenly start count, then Lendl position in GOAT lists should be re-considered :). Note: no mention about h2h ... which is now suddenly irrelevant - compared to "locker room #1 era"? (you probably start typing "but Nadal led 3-1..." and other wishlist stuff).

Another thing which also is now irrelevant?: quality of opposition during slam routes. For over a decade Fed has gotten all the slack about one Baghdatis-final. (Propably TT answers with most complicated math and percentages that Nadal's 2017 slam routes were hard and Nadal faced nothing but quality opponents)

As I said earlier FO+USO slighly ahead wimb Wimb+AO, but that is close to toss-up... whoever wins YEC then it is him. If neither then we can just compare computer points.

.mikko

[Whisper]

On 1/10/2017 6:06 AM, TT wrote:
> Carey kirjoitti 30.9.2017 klo 20:17:

>> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:51:02 AM UTC-7, bob wrote:
>>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
>>> determine it?
>>>
>>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
>>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
>>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
>>>
>>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
>>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
>>>
>>> opinions?
>>>
>>> bob
>>
>>

>> One wouldn't necessarily be wrong to call it a toss up, so far, but
>> Fed did go 3-0 against his closest rival. Hoping they meet at YEC, and
>> the Great Man makes it a clean sweep for 2017.         :)
>>
>

> Nadal must have been the better player considering that Fed didn't have
> balls to even try and face Rafa on clay. Probably tanked at USO for same
> reason, or that's at least what he claimed.
>

Despite what any of us think about him Fed is a very astute tennis
thinker - one of the best I've seen.

He was probably surprised as anyone he beat Rafa at AO from a big hole
in final set - figures that's unlikely to happen again, thus his dodging
tactics at FO/USO.

It's only Fed's most ardent fans that ever think he's a fave to beat
Rafa. Even Fed pegs his odds at 5 to 10%. That isn't zero, & explains
his win at AO. A very unlikely outcome, but one of my fave moments in
tennis.

[Whisper]

On 1/10/2017 7:10 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> Op zaterdag 30 september 2017 20:24:46 UTC+2 schreef MBDunc:

>> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:51:02 PM UTC+3, bob wrote:
>>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
>>> determine it?
>>>
>>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
>>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
>>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
>>>
>>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
>>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
>>>
>>> opinions?
>>>
>>> bob
>>

>> IMO FO + USO very slightly ahead Wimb + AO, but it is practically toss up.
>
>

> Not if you factor in the opposition both guys faced in AO and USO respectively. It's a blow-out.
>


But Rafa won FO & USO in ridiculously easy fashion. That means unlikely
he woulda lost no matter who he played.

[MBDunc]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:01:07 AM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
> But Rafa won FO & USO in ridiculously easy fashion. That means unlikely
> he woulda lost no matter who he played.

This happened to be boon when Fed did it with similar fashion at his absolute prime.

.mikko

[MBDunc]

Question mark required to the end of sentence "...absolute prime?"

Somehow Fed's easy reigns are negative for him/his legacy, but for Nadal they are positive and additional proof of his greatness. Cannot compute.

.mikko

[John Liang]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:58:58 PM UTC+11, Whisper wrote:
> On 1/10/2017 6:06 AM, TT wrote:
> > Carey kirjoitti 30.9.2017 klo 20:17:
> >> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:51:02 AM UTC-7, bob wrote:
> >>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
> >>> determine it?
> >>>
> >>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
> >>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
> >>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
> >>>
> >>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
> >>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
> >>>
> >>> opinions?
> >>>
> >>> bob
> >>
> >>
> >> One wouldn't necessarily be wrong to call it a toss up, so far, but
> >> Fed did go 3-0 against his closest rival. Hoping they meet at YEC, and
> >> the Great Man makes it a clean sweep for 2017.         :)
> >>
> >
> > Nadal must have been the better player considering that Fed didn't have
> > balls to even try and face Rafa on clay. Probably tanked at USO for same
> > reason, or that's at least what he claimed.
> >
>
>
> Despite what any of us think about him Fed is a very astute tennis
> thinker - one of the best I've seen.
>
> He was probably surprised as anyone he beat Rafa at AO from a big hole
> in final set - figures that's unlikely to happen again, thus his dodging
> tactics at FO/USO.

It wasn't a big hole at all. He was one service break down but he was exerting the pressure on Nadal and pressing for that break in all of Nadal's service game. If there is anything it was Nadal who cracked again in the tight situation on a hard court grand slam final. The match was very similar to how it ended in 2012 AO when Nadal was playing Djoker, Nadal was also up a break in the fifth. I don't know about dodging but Wimbledon was spelt out as main goal for 2017, he was not going to chase the point on clay to damage his chance at Wimbledon.

>
> It's only Fed's most ardent fans that ever think he's a fave to beat
> Rafa. Even Fed pegs his odds at 5 to 10%. That isn't zero, & explains
> his win at AO. A very unlikely outcome, but one of my fave moments in
> tennis.

Honestly you should say the honest truth about your feeling about Federer, deep down there is nobody here doubt your hatred toward the guy, why pretend ?

[John Liang]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:35:00 AM UTC+11, Whisper wrote:

> On 1/10/2017 10:43 AM, bob wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 11:03:17 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
> > <olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> forget the computer,
> >>
> >> Why forget the computer? Nadal's ahead by 2000 points. Two slams, 1F, 4R + 2 Masters 1000s > Two slams, 1QF, absence at FO + 2 Masters 1000s. It's close but Nadal's had the better year so far. Federer will have to win the WTF to make it slightly better IMO. It looks to me like Nadal will end ye#1. I think Federer stated that he's not going to chase it because Nadal's too far ahead.
> >
> > i don't think fed will chase the computer either. but again, that's
> > the computer. fed's 3-0 H2H combined with a 2 slam yr including
> > Wimbledon makes it very very close. toss up.
> >
> > bob
> >
>
>
>
> It is close. The raw 7543 gives it to Fed 10v9, but Rafa made 3 slam
> finals & led 3-1 in 5th so easily could have won 3 slams. Rafa's
> historic 10th FO, Fed's historic 8th Wimbledon - 2 really massive legacy
> achievements. Rafa will also be yr-end No.1.

Sure, would you consider revising your 7543 as Joh suggest to give a 1 to a player that led 3-1 and could not finish the match ?

[*skriptis]

bob <b...@nospam.net> Wrote in message:

What do you people mean by saying Federer will not chase year end 1?

If you mean he won't play Moscow or Stockholm to accumulate points
then yes, I agree he won't do that.

But who expected him to play those tournaments anyway?


Maybe by saying he won't chase it, you mean he'll not try hard
enough to win vs Nadal or others. In order to avoid
injuries?


--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Whisper]

On 1/10/2017 12:11 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>> i'm sad i have to agree on 2 counts.
>
> Why are you sad?
>

Same reason you'll be sad when Rafa gets 20 slams?

[John Liang]

I think No.1 is well within reach for Federer without playing additional tournaments but it is not his top priority.

[Whisper]

On 1/10/2017 1:39 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>> i don't hate federer, surely there are other athletes i dislike far
> more. i like rafa better. but hey, fed brought the goods this year.
> IMO it was fortunate that djok and murray laid an egg, but that's part
> of the game.
>
> These great athletes kept me motivated to stay in shape, to be fit just to be able to play tennis.

Interesting. I can't say any tennis player motivated me to work out -
just love the feeling of being fit.

>
> I love playing tennis more than anything in my life. My love for tennis is a big problem and it causes lots of problems in my personal relationships.

So you play a lot?

>
> Boris Becker got me to start playing tennis, to run miles and miles,

Boris was inspirational in his younger days - sky seemed to be the limit.

> Lendl as well, then sampras for many years, and then thanks God for having Federer, this is when I decided to play effortless tennis, study his mechanics and swings, enjoyed >his tennis and played similar tennis for 15 years.

McEnroe had that effect on me - he's the true master of effortless
tennis imo.

I can't say Sampras/Federer were inspirational for me - Lendl forget it.

>
> It's been a blessing (for me :) ) to witness him and witness his game and career.
>
> He will be missed greatly (for me again).
>

A great player with astonishing consistency. Even his worst matches
were played at a very high standard.

[Whisper]

On 1/10/2017 5:01 PM, John Liang wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:35:00 AM UTC+11, Whisper wrote:
>> On 1/10/2017 10:43 AM, bob wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 11:03:17 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
>>> <olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> forget the computer,
>>>>
>>>> Why forget the computer? Nadal's ahead by 2000 points. Two slams, 1F, 4R + 2 Masters 1000s > Two slams, 1QF, absence at FO + 2 Masters 1000s. It's close but Nadal's had the better year so far. Federer will have to win the WTF to make it slightly better IMO. It looks to me like Nadal will end ye#1. I think Federer stated that he's not going to chase it because Nadal's too far ahead.
>>>
>>> i don't think fed will chase the computer either. but again, that's
>>> the computer. fed's 3-0 H2H combined with a 2 slam yr including
>>> Wimbledon makes it very very close. toss up.
>>>
>>> bob
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It is close. The raw 7543 gives it to Fed 10v9, but Rafa made 3 slam
>> finals & led 3-1 in 5th so easily could have won 3 slams. Rafa's
>> historic 10th FO, Fed's historic 8th Wimbledon - 2 really massive legacy
>> achievements. Rafa will also be yr-end No.1.
>
> But we need to remember it is the final score that get remembered not score of middle of fifth set, beside Federer was the dominating player in that final sets, he had Nadal under the pump after been a break down, it was Nadal who cracked under the consistent pressure from Federer on every single service game he had in that fifth set. The flip side of the coin is Federer could have won that set 6:1 or 6:2.

Also coulda lost it 6-1 or 6-2. Everyone was surprised when Fed won the
last point, including Fed & Rafa. It's one of those unlikely wins that
do happen from time to time. Unlikely doesn't mean impossible, just
improbable.

[Whisper]

Yr-end No.1 is much bigger than YEC. Fed still has a chance if he romps
through YEC no?

[John Liang]

I don't think pete will be sad about Nadal reaching 20 slams but I am pretty sure you will be sad at the scenario if Nadal is to win 20 slam or if he fails. The only reason you supported Nadal was to use him to knock Federer's achievement, deep inside you know such a ploy is inadequate when Federer is 4 slam better than your true hero Sampras. Nadal's game has everything you dislike about bum rooting tennis.

[John Liang]

Very unlikely, because if we look at every service game the players played in that fifth set, Federer held serve easily apart from the first game and last game but on Nadal's service games it was always a struggle. I think you need to rewatch that fifth set before making a meaningful argument. Your memory is not very good for your age.

[MBDunc]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 2:05:18 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
> Yr-end No.1 is much bigger than YEC. Fed still has a chance if he romps
> through YEC no?

Nadal is that much ahead in points that #1 for this year is not guaranteed for Fed with YEC title. A lot depends on Shanghai/Paris masterseries and 500 events can have impact too.

If both remain healthy I'd say 70-30 chance for Nadal getting year-end #1. If Nadal plays "okay" with some semis -> for Fed it then requires titles.

.mikko

[bob]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 18:58:50 +1100, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/10/2017 6:06 AM, TT wrote:
>> Carey kirjoitti 30.9.2017 klo 20:17:
>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:51:02 AM UTC-7, bob wrote:
>>>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
>>>> determine it?
>>>>
>>>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
>>>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
>>>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
>>>>
>>>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
>>>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
>>>>
>>>> opinions?
>>>>
>>>> bob
>>>
>>>
>>> One wouldn't necessarily be wrong to call it a toss up, so far, but
>>> Fed did go 3-0 against his closest rival. Hoping they meet at YEC, and
>>> the Great Man makes it a clean sweep for 2017.         :)
>>>
>>
>> Nadal must have been the better player considering that Fed didn't have
>> balls to even try and face Rafa on clay. Probably tanked at USO for same
>> reason, or that's at least what he claimed.
>>
>
>
>Despite what any of us think about him Fed is a very astute tennis
>thinker - one of the best I've seen.
>
>He was probably surprised as anyone he beat Rafa at AO from a big hole
>in final set - figures that's unlikely to happen again, thus his dodging
>tactics at FO/USO.

he definitely dodged at FO, that doesn't appear to be a secret to
anyone. but it played out to his advantage with his 8th wimbledon. at
USO, i think he just didn't prep properly, i don't think he tanked.
but rafa's form at USO would've beaten him. rafa really was playing
well there. maybe he'll even win the rare YEC.

>It's only Fed's most ardent fans that ever think he's a fave to beat
>Rafa. Even Fed pegs his odds at 5 to 10%. That isn't zero, & explains
>his win at AO. A very unlikely outcome, but one of my fave moments in
>tennis.

rafa's 2yr journey from being outside the top 50 in reality to right
now didn't happen instantaneously. IMO rafa's AO was somewhere the mid
point of his upward trajectory. granted, federer also played excellent
tennis and more aggressively than usual. too bad we didn't see AO form
fed VS USO form rafa this yr.

bob

[bob]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 22:05:12 +1100, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
wrote:

does he? there are a lot of computer pts to make up.

bob

[bob]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 19:39:45 -0700 (PDT), PeteWasLucky
<waleed...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> i don't hate federer, surely there are other athletes i dislike far
>more. i like rafa better. but hey, fed brought the goods this year.
>IMO it was fortunate that djok and murray laid an egg, but that's part
>of the game.
>
>These great athletes kept me motivated to stay in shape, to be fit just to be able to play tennis.
>I love playing tennis more than anything in my life. My love for tennis is a big problem and it causes lots of problems in my personal relationships.

better than boozing wife beater, no?

>Boris Becker got me to start playing tennis, to run miles and miles, Lendl as well, then sampras for many years, and then thanks God for having Federer, this is when I decided to play effortless tennis, study his mechanics and swings, enjoyed his tennis and played similar tennis for 15 years.

as a kid i thought to copy top pros at times.
hook shot like abdul jabbar.
snap shot like guy lafleur.
FH like lendl.
but i realized it didn't work, just had to develop my own strokes and
styles best i could.

>It's been a blessing (for me :) ) to witness him and witness his game and career.
>He will be missed greatly (for me again).

your love is pure no doubt.

bob

[bob]

that's possible, but it's close. i cheer nadal VS djok and murray
also, not just fed.

bob

[bob]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 21:49:57 +1100, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/10/2017 12:11 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>>> i'm sad i have to agree on 2 counts.
>>
>> Why are you sad?
>>
>
>Same reason you'll be sad when Rafa gets 20 slams?

:-)

bob

[bob]

i don't think he'll prep and focus to win YEC (and hence maybe #1) in
the same fashion he focused on wimbledon for ex. sure, he may show up,
but i don't see it as on his mind all day/night.

bob

[bob]

so nadal's got the better resume so far? :-)

bob

[bob]

difference being who was in the draw.

bob

[bob]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 19:01:00 +1100, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
wrote:

in hindsight, nadal was a beast at FO and USO. nobody was going to
beat him at those 2 no doubt.

bob

[John Liang]

He is 1865 points ahead, and what is on the table for Federer is around 5000 points, that include Paris, Shanghai, Swiss Indoor and YEC. It is a lead but not a huge lead. I think the best year that Nadal had around this time of the year was 2013 that he got 2020 points. It is obvious Federer will need to win at least 2 or 3 remaining titles to have a chance.

[*skriptis]

Why not?

First of all, yec is unlikely to mess up with AO or especially
next year's Wimbledon.

Secondly I'm sure alongside wanting number 1 ad YEC for himself he
wants to prevent rafa from winning his first there and also go +2
vs Djokovic there.

His 5th indoor yec would tie him with Djokovic and that would be
massive for his indoor HC credentials.

So far Djokovic is king of indoor HC.
5 vs 4 YEC, and more masters series.

[TT]

MBDunc kirjoitti 1.10.2017 klo 9:14:
> Another thing which also is now irrelevant?: quality of opposition during slam routes. For over a decade Fed has gotten all the slack about one Baghdatis-final. (Propably TT answers with most complicated math and percentages that Nadal's 2017 slam routes were hard and Nadal faced nothing but quality opponents)
>

Federer hardly had tough routes to his two slam titles either, apart
from facing Nadal at AO final.

Besides, you can't claim Fed had tougher slam draws this year since
Federer himself admitted that he didn't want to face Nadal at RG or USO.
You're trying to reward Fed for deliberately avoiding Rafa.

The h2h argument for this year fails for same reason.

> As I said earlier FO+USO slighly ahead wimb Wimb+AO, but that is close to toss-up... whoever wins YEC then it is him. If neither then we can just compare computer points.

YEC counts for very little. Whoever ends up with more ranking points is
a fair meter.

As for slam combinations, RG+USO is slightly better because they are
more varied surfaces than AO+WB.

[TT]

Whisper kirjoitti 1.10.2017 klo 11:01:
> On 1/10/2017 7:10 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
>> Op zaterdag 30 september 2017 20:24:46 UTC+2 schreef MBDunc:
>>> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:51:02 PM UTC+3, bob wrote:
>>>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
>>>> determine it?
>>>>
>>>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
>>>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
>>>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
>>>>
>>>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
>>>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
>>>>
>>>> opinions?
>>>>
>>>> bob
>>>
>>> IMO FO + USO very slightly ahead Wimb + AO, but it is practically
>>> toss up.
>>
>>
>> Not if you factor in the opposition both guys faced in AO and USO
>> respectively. It's a blow-out.
>>
>
>
> But Rafa won FO & USO in ridiculously easy fashion.  That means unlikely
> he woulda lost no matter who he played.
>

Rafa probably faced the best players at the moment anyway. At RG Thiem
who was clearly 2nd best claycourter this season & Wawrinka who is a RG
champ and one of the very few who could trouble in-form Rafa on clay.

At USO he faced Delpo who beat Federer the previous round. Federer said
that Delpo would have better chance against Nadal than he. Final was
pretty easy though with Anderson.

[TT]

Nadal reigned RG supreme regardless of primes and opponents. Fed reigned
supreme only when he didn't have to face great players.

[MBDunc]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 3:04:56 PM UTC+3, bob wrote:
> rafa's 2yr journey from being outside the top 50 in reality

In reality - outside of top 50 - in reality? Nadal has been ranked in top10 *whole time* since 2005.

Nadal did hit his bottom #10 2015 but even still he won three tournaments that year and made 2 x slam QF. Your regular "outside of top50" journeyman can only dream about these results. 2016 Nadal won master serie event.

.mikko

[MBDunc]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 5:04:09 PM UTC+3, TT wrote:
> Federer hardly had tough routes to his two slam titles either, apart
> from facing Nadal at AO final.

Nishi + Wawrinka 5 setters in AO. Wimb was easy though, but Fed was clearly at the top of his game there too.

> Besides, you can't claim Fed had tougher slam draws this year since
> Federer himself admitted that he didn't want to face Nadal at RG or USO.
> You're trying to reward Fed for deliberately avoiding Rafa.
>
> The h2h argument for this year fails for same reason.

You just underlined how silly h2h is. Always subjective stuff prone to excuses.

> > As I said earlier FO+USO slighly ahead wimb Wimb+AO, but that is close to toss-up... whoever wins YEC then it is him. If neither then we can just compare computer points.
>
> YEC counts for very little.

For you very little, for obvious reasons.

> As for slam combinations, RG+USO is slightly better because they are
> more varied surfaces than AO+WB.

I already agreed here. Not because clay+hc vs grass+hc combos are more varied/more similar or not, but historical reasons combined.

.mikko

[RaspingDrive]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 10:04:09 AM UTC-4, TT wrote:
> MBDunc kirjoitti 1.10.2017 klo 9:14:
> > Another thing which also is now irrelevant?: quality of opposition during slam routes. For over a decade Fed has gotten all the slack about one Baghdatis-final. (Propably TT answers with most complicated math and percentages that Nadal's 2017 slam routes were hard and Nadal faced nothing but quality opponents)
> >
>
> Federer hardly had tough routes to his two slam titles either, apart
> from facing Nadal at AO final.

huh?

> Federer himself admitted that he didn't want to face Nadal at RG or USO.

true.

> YEC counts for very little. Whoever ends up with more ranking points is
> a fair meter.

> As for slam combinations, RG+USO is slightly better because they are
> more varied surfaces than AO+WB.

For goats who are expected to have a sizable number of any slam, RG+USO = AO+WB as are any other combinations of two slams. It's (you know which one) like the hawkeye, which settles conflicting viewpoints over which slam combinations should rank higher (as there will always be conflicting views as to which is better).

[PeteWasLucky]

> Same reason you'll be sad when Rafa gets 20 slams?

If I become sad then it's understood because I like Federer but Bob dislikes fed and Nadal.

[TT]

MBDunc kirjoitti 1.10.2017 klo 17:28:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 5:04:09 PM UTC+3, TT wrote:
>> Federer hardly had tough routes to his two slam titles either, apart
>> from facing Nadal at AO final.
>
> Nishi + Wawrinka 5 setters in AO. Wimb was easy though, but Fed was clearly at the top of his game there too.
>
>> Besides, you can't claim Fed had tougher slam draws this year since
>> Federer himself admitted that he didn't want to face Nadal at RG or USO.
>> You're trying to reward Fed for deliberately avoiding Rafa.
>>
>> The h2h argument for this year fails for same reason.
>
> You just underlined how silly h2h is. Always subjective stuff prone to excuses.
>

H2h is very valid meter. However it doesn't work that well if one player
deliberately avoids the other on his strong suit. Fed said he skipped
the clay because of Nadal.

I always argued that Evert > Navratilova because of their h2h. (Navra
avoided Evert on clay deliberately and Evert would have leading h2h
otherwise)

>>> As I said earlier FO+USO slighly ahead wimb Wimb+AO, but that is close to toss-up... whoever wins YEC then it is him. If neither then we can just compare computer points.
>>
>> YEC counts for very little.
>
> For you very little, for obvious reasons.
>

It would be much more meaningful if it was played on multiple surfaces.
Also the format could be a bit different...

You want to see it as 3rd HC slam, for obvious reasons. Or was it Key
Biscane, lol...

[TT]

My point was that clay & hard are further apart than grass & hard. Thus
winning RG+USO makes one more varied a player... an all-surface leader.

[PeteWasLucky]

> clay & hard are further apart than grass & hard

Why?

[MBDunc]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 5:47:53 PM UTC+3, TT wrote:
> It would be much more meaningful if it was played on multiple surfaces.
> Also the format could be a bit different...
>
> You want to see it as 3rd HC slam, for obvious reasons. Or was it Key
> Biscane, lol...

Indoor carpet.

.mikko

[TT]

It's not carpet.

[RaspingDrive]

Not that I need to point out the obvious to a Finnish mathematician/probabilist/statistician/data analyst, but in asymptotic (read: goat) determinations, only the dominating term is relevant. All the subsequent terms (read: small details) are washed out [o(1), o_p(1) etc]. Nadal clearly has the number on the current record holder (goat, if you may) not only in terms of the tangible H2H but also otherwise -- the recent FO and USO being examples -- and is himself a very elite player getting there (goat).

[MBDunc]

I know, but I want YEC on carpet, not another HC slam.

.mikko

[TT]

That would make it even less 'the year end tournament', since ranking
points (qualification) are amassed on other surfaces.

Btw, the name is "WTF". :)

[Whisper]

Let's hope it's Fed v Rafa in YEC final with yr-end No.1 on the line.



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[Guypers]

That would be nice indeed!

[bob]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 07:16:01 -0700 (PDT), MBDunc
<mich...@dnainternet.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 3:04:56 PM UTC+3, bob wrote:
>> rafa's 2yr journey from being outside the top 50 in reality

>In reality - outside of top 50 - in reality? Nadal has been ranked in top10 *whole time* since 2005.

that's why i used the words "in reality" and didn't use the word
"rank." we all know the flaws of the computer ranking system.

>Nadal did hit his bottom #10 2015 but even still he won three tournaments that year and made 2 x slam QF. Your regular "outside of top50" journeyman can only dream about these results. 2016 Nadal won master serie event.

there was a period of some months that rafa was losing early to
nobodies, equivalent to a guy outside the top 50.

bob

[bob]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 02:33:46 +1100, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
wrote:

yes, would be the 1st YEC i've watched in quite a while.

bob

[bob]

how so?

bob

[bob]

i dislike nadal? since when? i don't even dislike federer too much
anymore.

bob

[bob]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 15:47:32 +0200 (CEST), *skriptis

i guess we'll find out next month when it happens.

bob

[PeteWasLucky]

> i don't even dislike federer too much
anymore

Not too much? lol

Sorry Bob

[TT]

Ask Roddick.

[bob]

the guy everyone said was a dummy?

bob

[Court_1]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 3:58:58 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:

> It's only Fed's most ardent fans that ever think he's a fave to beat
> Rafa. Even Fed pegs his odds at 5 to 10%. That isn't zero, & explains
> his win at AO.

It depends on what surface they are playing on, their form in a particular tournament and whether or not Federer's backhand we saw from Jan-July 2017 is firing. If that backhand is not firing, he's not going to beat Nadal in best of five but if it's firing and if it's on grass or hc, I would give a slight edge to Federer.

And where did Federer himself ever say his odds are 5-10% to beat Nadal? He would NEVER say that. Stop making up crap!

[Court_1]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 8:16:27 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 19:01:00 +1100, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 1/10/2017 7:10 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> >> Op zaterdag 30 september 2017 20:24:46 UTC+2 schreef MBDunc:
> >>> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:51:02 PM UTC+3, bob wrote:
> >>>> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
> >>>> determine it?
> >>>>
> >>>> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
> >>>> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
> >>>> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
> >>>>
> >>>> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
> >>>> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
> >>>>
> >>>> opinions?
> >>>>
> >>>> bob
> >>>
> >>> IMO FO + USO very slightly ahead Wimb + AO, but it is practically toss up.
> >>
> >>
> >> Not if you factor in the opposition both guys faced in AO and USO respectively. It's a blow-out.
> >>
> >
> >

> >But Rafa won FO & USO in ridiculously easy fashion. That means unlikely
> >he woulda lost no matter who he played.
>

> in hindsight, nadal was a beast at FO and USO. nobody was going to
> beat him at those 2 no doubt.

At the FO, nobody was going to beat him but at the USO? He didn't have a single top 25 player to play! You're saying Kyrgios, Zverev, the Federer we saw from Jan-July 2017 couldn't have defeated Nadal on hc? Give me a break!

Let's see if Nadal can finally win ONE WTF playing the best players on hc this year.

[Court_1]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 8:12:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:34:36 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
>
>
> >On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 9:29:26 PM UTC-4, bob wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> i don't hate federer,
> >
> >Oh shut up! You don't hate Federer but you were sad and hated that he won his 8th Wimbledon. You take every opportunity possible to try and marginalize Federer and his accomplishments. Own up to your dislike of the man.
>
> >You dislike Federer more than you like Nadal. That's obvious to all.
>
> that's possible, but it's close. i cheer nadal VS djok and murray
> also, not just fed.
>
> bob

LOL. Who the hell cheers for Murray and Djokovic? Judy Murray, Kim Sears, Djokovic's family and his nutty Nole Family fans most of whom are probably from Serbia or from surrounding countries.

[Court_1]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 11:33:52 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:

I don't think it will be ye#1 on the line. I think Nadal would have to lose before the SFs in all of the tournaments leading up to the WTF and Fed would have to win all those titles, otherwise, ye#1 is Nadal's. It would still be great to see Nadal vs Federer in the WTF final because the winner would be the best player of 2017 regardless of the ye#1.

[Court_1]

You absolutely dislike Federer and tolerate Nadal(when he's beating Federer.)

[Whisper]

It would be one of the very few YECs with something meaningful on the
line so worth tuning in. The title itself is essentially meaningless -
just a frolick for the top players, they can lose a match or 2 & still
be in it etc - lighthearted fun at the end of the yr for the fans.

[Whisper]

Fed would love to bookend this stupendous season with finals wins over Rafa.



--
"A GOAT who isn't BOAT can never become GOAT if he plays alongside BOAT"

[The Iceberg]

I always cheer for Murray and sometimes Djoker when playing good matches like when against Fed!! Murray and Djoker family got nothing on Stan abuse shouting heckling Mirko!

[StephenJ]

W/AO is slightly better than FO/USO, so Fed.

> On 9/30/2017 11:50 AM, bob wrote:
> forget the computer, did rafa or fed have the best year? will YEC
> determine it?
>
> i'm on record as saying anyone who wins wimbledon and any other slam
> had the best year, and i'm also on record that any wimbledon winner
> wouldn't trade that trophy for any other. my big mouth. :-(
>
> 2017 all in all, very close. hated seeing that 8th wimbledon, but
> rafa's FO/USO was pretty dominant form too.
>
> opinions?
>
> bob
>

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[*skriptis]

The Iceberg <iceber...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> I always cheer for Murray and sometimes Djoker when playing good matches like when against Fed!! Murray and Djoker family got nothing on Stan abuse shouting heckling Mirko!
>

Haha
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[bob]

did djok get a divorce yet?

bob

[bob]

in form djok might've beaten him.

>Let's see if Nadal can finally win ONE WTF playing the best players on hc this year.

hope so.

bob

[PeteWasLucky]

> did djok get a divorce yet?

Get divorce or get divorced?