Churchill on EU

[Pelle Svanslös]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCtR_XeXcAEnWrT.jpg:large

[The Iceberg]

You forgot the rest where he says he wouldn't want Britian to be part of it, you liar.

[Pelle Svanslös]

On 20.6.2017 12:34, The Iceberg wrote:
> You forgot the rest where he says he wouldn't want Britian to be part of it, you liar.

You are right. I would normally offer apologies, but won't until you
kindly rewind. The full quote is:

"I must now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant
aim must be to build and fortify the strength of the United Nations
Organization. Under and within that world concept we must recreate the
European Family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United
States of Europe. And the first practical step would be to form a
Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing
or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and
combine those who will and those who can. The salvation of the common
people of every race and of every land from war or servitude must be
established on solid foundations and must be guarded by the readiness of
all men and women to die rather than submit to tyranny. In all this
urgent work, France and Germany must take the lead together. Great
Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America and I trust
Soviet Russia-for then indeed all would be well-must be the friends and
sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine".

http://www.churchill-in-zurich.ch/site/assets/files/1807/rede_winston_churchill_englisch.pdf

In a broader context, Churchill's stance seems to be anything but clear
cut. His views change. The practicalities of daily politics change.

"When read fully and in context, my opinion is that Churchill not only
enthusiastically believed in the ever-closer union of Europe, in which
the UK would play a leading role, but also eventually a world
government. He was, at the least, a confederalist.

And although it seems that Churchill didn’t at first envisage Britain
being a full member of ‘a kind of’ United States of Europe, it’s clear
that Churchill’s views later changed, as the British Empire and
Commonwealth diminished, and Britain’s world influence shifted.
(Churchill was renowned for changing his views according to
circumstances: he started his political life as a Conservative MP; then
resigned to become a Liberal MP; then resigned from the Liberals to
become a Conservative MP again).

During a debate in June 1950 in the House of Commons to discuss a united
Europe, Churchill said that he could not ’at present’ foresee Britain
being ‘a member of a Federal Union of Europe’. However, Churchill went
on to explain that this was primarily because of Britain’s position,
‘at the centre of the British Empire and Commonwealth’, and, ‘our
fraternal association with the United States of America.’

Crucially, in answering the question ‘Are you prepared to part with any
degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a
larger synthesis?’, Churchill responded:

‘We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation
of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the
conditions and the safeguards… national sovereignty is not inviolable,
and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the
lands finding their way home together.’

Commenting on this in his autobiography, ‘The course of my life’, Edward
Heath wrote, ‘This shows conclusively that, for all his practical
reservations during the late 1940s and early 1950s, Churchill was never
in principle against our membership of the European Community.’

Churchill made his last speech about Europe at London’s Central Hall,
Westminster in July 1957; some four months after six founding nations
established the European Economic Community by signing the Treaty of
Rome (France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and
Luxembourg). Churchill welcomed the formation of a ‘common market’ by
the six, provided that ‘the whole of free Europe will have access’.
Churchill added, ‘we genuinely wish to join’.

But Churchill also warned:

‘If, on the other hand, the European trade community were to be
permanently restricted to the six nations, the results might be worse
than if nothing were done at all – worse for them as well as for us. It
would tend not to unite Europe but to divide it – and not only in the
economic field.’ (Source: Winston S. Churchill: His Complete Speeches
Vol. 8 page 8681)".

http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/

There's a good discussion at the end also, If you have the stamina for
it, which I doubt.

[*skriptis]

The Iceberg <iceber...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> You forgot the rest where he says he wouldn't want Britian to be part of it, you liar.

Normally.


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[*skriptis]

Pelle Svanslös <pe...@svans.los> Wrote in message:

> And although it seems that Churchill didn?t at first envisage Britain
> being a full member of ?a kind of? United States of Europe, it?s clear
> that Churchill?s views later changed, as the British Empire and
> Commonwealth diminished, and Britain?s world influence shifted.

> (Churchill was renowned for changing his views according to
> circumstances: he started his political life as a Conservative MP; then
> resigned to become a Liberal MP; then resigned from the Liberals to
> become a Conservative MP again).
>
> During a debate in June 1950 in the House of Commons to discuss a united

> Europe, Churchill said that he could not ?at present? foresee Britain
> being ?a member of a Federal Union of Europe?. However, Churchill went
> on to explain that this was primarily because of Britain?s position,
> ?at the centre of the British Empire and Commonwealth?, and, ?our
> fraternal association with the United States of America.?
>
> Crucially, in answering the question ?Are you prepared to part with any

> degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a

> larger synthesis??, Churchill responded:
>
> ?We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation

> of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the

> conditions and the safeguards? national sovereignty is not inviolable,

> and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the

> lands finding their way home together.?
>
> Commenting on this in his autobiography, ?The course of my life?, Edward
> Heath wrote, ?This shows conclusively that, for all his practical

> reservations during the late 1940s and early 1950s, Churchill was never

> in principle against our membership of the European Community.?
>
> Churchill made his last speech about Europe at London?s Central Hall,

> Westminster in July 1957; some four months after six founding nations
> established the European Economic Community by signing the Treaty of
> Rome (France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and

> Luxembourg). Churchill welcomed the formation of a ?common market? by
> the six, provided that ?the whole of free Europe will have access?.
> Churchill added, ?we genuinely wish to join?.
>
> But Churchill also warned:
>
> ?If, on the other hand, the European trade community were to be

> permanently restricted to the six nations, the results might be worse

> than if nothing were done at all ? worse for them as well as for us. It
> would tend not to unite Europe but to divide it ? and not only in the
> economic field.? (Source: Winston S. Churchill: His Complete Speeches

> Vol. 8 page 8681)".
>
> http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/
>
> There's a good discussion at the end also, If you have the stamina for
> it, which I doubt.
>

Don't you realize it's failed thing to quote a man describing his
world 70 years ago to suggest eg how should Europe look
today?

You might as well quoted Napoleon, Charles the great, Justinian or
Julius Caesar.

[The Iceberg]

what's there to discuss, Churchill thought the idea of an EU was a good idea and (like myself and most sensible people) wanted Great Britain to have NOTHING to do with it. The thing missing the current EU has evolved into the EUSSR - cos it's based on a lie, they totally *LIED* about how it was only about trade, when really it's all been about creating a political Federation of Europe, like the USA, EXCEPT the President is selected.
Thanks goodness for Brexit.

[Pelle Svanslös]

You can think whatever the hell you want, but it's clear ‘we genuinely
wish to join’ doesn't quite mean what you say it does.

Nice try.