How Federer Could S&V to the FO title.... (highlights included)

[kaennorsing]

As has been discussed here: Fed's #1 goal is winning Wimbledon this year. This could be his last realistic chance at that record-breaking 8th title there. However, in prepping for Wimbledon, Fed would be a fool to not give the FO a good try (given the current state with his rivals and himself). The question then becomes how to maximize his chances for the FO (and possible CYGS) without jeopardizing this year's big Wimbledon opportunity.

The draws, health and form of his rivals are not under his control so let's put that aside. What he can control are his own form, (mental) health and fitness level from the FO through Wimbledon. The way to direct and optimize his form and preserve his fitness is to take a leave out of what worked so well at the AO. Now, coming in as a big underdog without anything to lose is already guaranteed by not participating in any clay tune-up before the FO starts.

Secondly, what also worked so well at the AO; Take the ball early and play more aggressively from the return. The team told him: 'nobody is as good as you when taking the ball early, so use that (more) on the return'. Aided by the improved backhand return and drive backhands, he would rush his opponents from the start of the point, not letting a regular/defensive rally occur. This is an area where the SABR comes in handily as a sporadic tactical ploy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRJg6dEQTOs

Beyond using the SABR more frequently at the FO he will need a similar tactic to employ on his own service games and to move into net easier and keep points short. The answer is to serve and volley. But... not in the classical sense, where you follow the serve to the net (that he should also use regularly!), but more opportunistically. Meaning position himself well inside the baseline to anticipate the return. I would say move one or two steps further inside the court (after the serve) than he normally would. He can then regularly do a classic serve volley, given his positioning and momentum moving forward. But mostly hold his ground there.

Alls this will help to take time away, put pressure on opponents and score lots of quick (and spectacular) winners. If the return is effective and threatens to land deep in the court, instead of retreat behind the baseline to start controlling the point go for full out aggression and take the ball out of the air. So in short, serve and volley from the baseline... Can it be done? Yes, I think so. Just watch these;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCkXzJEoeGQ

Honestly, he has little to lose imo. This should help him navigate himself safely through the FO and, if nothing else, prepare himself for an all out assault at Wimbledon 2017... Those plays and subtle tactical (s&v) variations will work wonders there. At the very least be quite a spectacle and... maybe, just maybe... change the way the game will be played in the future.

[stephenJ]

IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
Yannick Noah.

That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.


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[kaennorsing]

Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:

> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
> Yannick Noah.
>
> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
> been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.

I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline, not the traditional serve volley. And it's really about giving himself the best chance for the FO while prepping optimally for the more realistic Wimbledon title. I think this is the way to do it. Change the game. Serve volley from the baseline, shock the world. That's what I like to see, win or lose. What are his chances for the FO title any way? Little to none. So not much to lose, but lots to gain.

[Pelle Svanslös]

On 7.5.2017 19:52, kaennorsing wrote:
>
> I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline, not the
> traditional serve volley.

Hard to see what this would mean. Are you saying Rogi should serve and
then move himself a meter or two inside the baseline and then wait there
to volley?

[stephenJ]

On 5/7/2017 11:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
>> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
>> Yannick Noah.
>>
>> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
>> been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
>

> I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline ...

That's a new concept. I wonder what it means? 🙄

[kaennorsing]

Op zondag 7 mei 2017 19:12:17 UTC+2 schreef Pelle Svanslös:

Not to wait there, but anticipate the (weak) return to either;
a) take it on the rise
b) take it out of the air from inside the baseline
c) continue moving forward for a traditional serve volley

All this should take time away from his opponent and open up the court more easily. High risk, high reward but it keeps him fresher should he survive until the second week where things could become interesting. It's really just expanding on the SABR tactic and half-volley plays, but more as an integral part of his game, particularly on serve.

[*skriptis]

stephenJ <sja...@cox.net> Wrote in message:

> On 5/7/2017 11:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
>> Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
>>> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
>>> Yannick Noah.
>>>
>>> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
>>> been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
>>
>> I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline ...
>

> That's a new concept. I wonder what it means? ??


It's serve and trolley. :)


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[bob]

On Sun, 7 May 2017 09:43:06 -0500, stephenJ <sja...@cox.net> wrote:

>IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
>Yannick Noah.
>
>That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
>been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.

not to mention noah was a natural s/v player, federer is not even
though he has a very good serve.

bob

[Whisper]

On 8/05/2017 2:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
>> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
>> Yannick Noah.
>>
>> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
>> been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
>
> I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline, not the traditional serve volley.

Pretty sure that's illegal?

Sampras would have won 40 slams if he s/v'd from baseline.

[stephenJ]

Noah's performance at the 83 FO left me and many others at the time
scratching our heads as time went by as to why he could never do it
again. He exhibited tremendous S/V skills and athleticism at that event.

[kaennorsing]

Op maandag 8 mei 2017 12:25:56 UTC+2 schreef Whisper:

> On 8/05/2017 2:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> > Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
> >> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
> >> Yannick Noah.
> >>
> >> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
> >> been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
> >
> > I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline, not the traditional serve volley.
>
>
> Pretty sure that's illegal?

Why would it be illegal?

> Sampras would have won 40 slams if he s/v'd from baseline.

I know you're the most crazed Sampras fanatic but this takes it to another level entirely.

[kaennorsing]

Op zondag 7 mei 2017 19:39:57 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:

> On 5/7/2017 11:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> > Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
> >> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO title was
> >> Yannick Noah.
> >>
> >> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than you have
> >> been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
> >
> > I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline ...
>
> That's a new concept. I wonder what it means? 🙄

Serve and position a meter or so inside the baseline to anticipate the incoming return. If it comes deep; volley directly. If semi-deep; (full swinging) half volley. If short; easy putaway.

This is obviously not recommended for anyone other than those with great serves and follow-up skills like these;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCkXzJEoeGQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuNUW9ipcM

Sp pretty much only for Federer.

[Pelle Svanslös]

On 9.5.2017 16:12, kaennorsing wrote:
> Op zondag 7 mei 2017 19:39:57 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
>> On 5/7/2017 11:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
>>> Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
>>>> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO
>>>> title was Yannick Noah.
>>>>
>>>> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than
>>>> you have been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
>>>
>>> I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline ...
>>
>> That's a new concept. I wonder what it means? 🙄
>
> Serve and position a meter or so inside the baseline to anticipate
> the incoming return. If it comes deep; volley directly. If semi-deep;
> (full swinging) half volley. If short; easy putaway.

This is pretty much what people already do. If the ball is handy, take
it as a drive volley. But I don't think anybody would want to
deliberately position themselves in no-man's land. If you end up there,
well, do what's required.

> This is obviously not recommended for anyone other than those with
> great serves and follow-up skills like these;

Anybody can drive volley.

[kaennorsing]

Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 15:22:15 UTC+2 schreef Pelle Svanslös:

> On 9.5.2017 16:12, kaennorsing wrote:
> > Op zondag 7 mei 2017 19:39:57 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
> >> On 5/7/2017 11:52 AM, kaennorsing wrote:
> >>> Op zondag 7 mei 2017 16:43:09 UTC+2 schreef StephenJ:
> >>>> IIRC, the last time someone served/volleyed their way to an FO
> >>>> title was Yannick Noah.
> >>>>
> >>>> That happened well over 12,000 days ago, probably longer than
> >>>> you have been alive. So I doubt it's happening this year.
> >>>
> >>> I'm talking about serve volleying from the baseline ...
> >>
> >> That's a new concept. I wonder what it means? 🙄
> >
> > Serve and position a meter or so inside the baseline to anticipate
> > the incoming return. If it comes deep; volley directly. If semi-deep;
> > (full swinging) half volley. If short; easy putaway.
>
> This is pretty much what people already do. If the ball is handy, take
> it as a drive volley. But I don't think anybody would want to
> deliberately position themselves in no-man's land. If you end up there,
> well, do what's required.

I'm not talking about anybody. Just Federer.

> > This is obviously not recommended for anyone other than those with
> > great serves and follow-up skills like these;
>
> Anybody can drive volley.

Sure. Not everybody can pick shots up from the bounce consistently or aggressively from both sides though.

[TT]

Style of play doesn't matter, Rafa is simply much better.

[kaennorsing]

Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 21:50:54 UTC+2 schreef TT:

No doubt Rafa is the much better clay player, but that's no guarantee for the title. And if Fed would play Rafa at the FO it would be insane to play him the same way he always did there... So my suggestion for the altered serve volley gameplan would actually be even stronger playing Rafa.

[*skriptis]

kaennorsing <ljub...@hotmail.com> Wrote in message:

I see, so you suggest Federer to drive-volley Rafa to death in FO 2017?

[kaennorsing]

Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 23:30:03 UTC+2 schreef *skriptis:

Well, playing safe or even his regular aggressive game hasn't really worked out for him vs Rafa at the FO, has it? Also given his age I'd like to see him mix in more (opportunistic) serve volleys, half-volleys and drive volleys on his serve and look to keep points short in general. Completely forget about the baseline grind and go all or nothing. If he can serve volley about 30-50% of points I'd be more than happy and actually think he has a good chance if he makes it to the tail end of the FO... Big if, I know.

[*skriptis]

I admit I'll be impressed if we don't see his demons resurfacing.

He's doing it right by avoiding Rafa. Skipping clay is more about
that, preserving h2h and positive mindset, not only about saving
body and energy.

But best of 5 grind lasts long enough for him to remember the old
patterns.

[Whisper]

I would love to see Fed beating Rafa in FO final. But realistically
let's not forget Rafa led 3-1 in 5th in AO final & had a few good
chances to seal that match.

Maybe if Rafa has the worst day of his life & Fed goes for the lines it
may happen?



--
"A GOAT who isn't BOAT can never become GOAT if he plays alongside BOAT"

[stephenJ]

> On 5/10/2017 6:43 AM, Whisper wrote:

> Maybe if Rafa has the worst day of his life & Fed goes for the lines it
> may happen?

Rafa has to be a solid favorite over Fed at FO, but Rafa has his own
mental issues to deal with. Joker punctured his aura of invincibility on
clay and he hasn't won the FO in three years. He may no longer be the
"rampant Nadal" he was 2014 and before. We shall see.

[Patrick Kehoe]

Rafa would just/normally mug Federer at Roland Garros... that much hasn't changed in men's tennis... :)

P

[Whisper]

There seems to be more hope for Fed this time. Logically it doesn't
make much sense on paper, but it's still sports at the end of the day &
Rafa is human. Love to see a final between them & Fed scaring him,
perhaps leading 2 sets to 0 even? Imagine the look on Rafa's face in
that scenario?

[Federer Fanatic]

Yes...that would be funny, even better if Fed won the match...

FF

[Whisper]

It really would be something to see Rafa mentally cowered by Fed for a
change, & at FO of all places.

: )

[Patrick Kehoe]

From a 'practical - nuts and bolts' point of view, the problem Federer would have against Rafa on clay is the percentage(s) of serves which would come back (WHICH DON'T on, say, hardcourt, be they aces, unretrunables or even 1-2 put away sitters)+ with the ball in play much (significantly) more often, the number of extended rallies goes up, and thus, it 'tends' to redefine the game-scape of the match-up Federer's been crafting the last 4 meeting... the match becoming more of a physical endurance match than tactical shot making duel... Federer's current advantages (vs. Rafa) are build on moving 4 critical percentages/factors: His ability to sustain service unreturnables and/or easy knock-off 1-2's; Federer's backhand-top spin cross court ascendency in relation to Rafa's forehand; Federer's sharpened backhand top-spinning service return, and, second serve percentages VS. Rafa's (which used to be a liability for Feds vs. Rafa)...

On clay Federer's going to have to contest more balls, run more, lose a certain percentage of 'through the court penetration' off both his forehand and backhand, and thus the 'character of the match' becomes less "first strike" or "situational dominance" and more about a protracted mental grind, a struggle to carve out far more heavily contested sapping points... not his best option these days, and in fact, ever really...

Doesn't guarantee Rafa/Nole a win over Feds on clay, but for Rafa specifically, it would notably ups his odds...

P

[Patrick Kehoe]

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 8:38:11 AM UTC-7, Patrick Kehoe wrote:

> From a 'practical - nuts and bolts' point of view, the problem Federer would have against Rafa on clay is the percentage(s) of serves which would come back (WHICH DON'T on, say, hardcourt, be they aces, unretrunables or even 1-2 put away sitters)+ with the ball in play much (significantly) more often, the number of extended rallies goes up, and thus, it 'tends' to redefine the game-scape of the match-up Federer's been crafting the last 4 meeting... the match becoming more of a physical endurance match than tactical shot making duel... Federer's current advantages (vs. Rafa) are build on moving 4 critical percentages/factors: His ability to sustain service unreturnables and/or easy knock-off 1-2's; Federer's backhand-top spin cross court ascendency in relation to Rafa's forehand; Federer's sharpened backhand top-spinning service return, and, second serve percentages VS. Rafa's (which used to be a liability for Feds vs. Rafa)...
>
> On clay Federer's going to have to contest more balls, run more, lose a certain percentage of 'through the court penetration' off both his forehand and backhand, and thus the 'character of the match' becomes less "first strike" or "situational dominance" and more about a protracted mental grind, a struggle to carve out far more heavily contested sapping points... not his best option these days, and in fact, ever really...
>
> Doesn't guarantee Rafa/Nole a win over Feds on clay, but for Rafa specifically, it would notably ups his odds...

> P

EVEN WITH Rafa himself trying to shorten points more often on clay as well! Plenty of ironies to go around here... One good note for Federer vs. Rafa on clay would be that Federer might well adopt a pseudo-Fognini type of tactic, a kind of mirroring of the power counter tennis Foggy uses against Rafa, with a touch more precision, it could be Federer's best hope... And that would be at least possible for Federer, so, Feds does have a shot... can he keep to the task and believe enough vs. Rafa on clay? We will have to wait and see if that match materializes...

FUNNY THING IS, they may never play on clay against each other EVER again... that's not out of the realm of possibility either...

P

[Gracchus]

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 5:15:58 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:
> On 11/05/2017 9:27 PM, Federer Fanatic wrote:

> > Yes...that would be funny, even better if Fed won the match...

> It really would be something to see Rafa mentally cowered by Fed for a
> change, & at FO of all places.

The word is "COWED" -- not "cowered." Time for you to go back and get that high school diploma.

[MBDunc]

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 4:39:27 PM UTC+3, StephenJ wrote:
> Noah's performance at the 83 FO left me and many others at the time
> scratching our heads as time went by as to why he could never do it
> again. He exhibited tremendous S/V skills and athleticism at that event.

Becker said that Noah had strokes of #50+ ranked player but his (back then - tennis players were soft and easily scared) scary looks intimidated and he really had good physics.

I could easily imagine that one Noah grin tames down regular journeymen of 80:ies who had no idea the opponent can be actually be black and feature rasta hair.

.mikko

[Shakes]

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:59:36 AM UTC-7, MBDunc wrote:
> On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 4:39:27 PM UTC+3, StephenJ wrote:
> > Noah's performance at the 83 FO left me and many others at the time
> > scratching our heads as time went by as to why he could never do it
> > again. He exhibited tremendous S/V skills and athleticism at that event.
>
> Becker said that Noah had strokes of #50+ ranked player

That BH was not pretty. He would drop his head while hitting it. I also think Noah was one of the first top players to use an OS frame.

[MBDunc]

Noah is officially the last male GS champion with a wood racket. (* note: Connors USO 83 with his good old steel pan)

Last male GS finalist with a wood racket was Curren AO 84.

.mikko

[Federer Fanatic]

One thing that will remain for fed is his quick release on taking the ball early which apparently to some analysis
I have read has actually improved from a few years back, especially on the backhand side, but Yes, it will be an
up hill battle against Rafa.

FF

[Whisper]

On 12/05/2017 1:38 AM, Patrick Kehoe wrote:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 4:27:14 AM UTC-7, Federer Fanatic wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 May 2017 20:38:29 +1000, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> wrote:
>> |
>> | There seems to be more hope for Fed this time. Logically it doesn't
>> | make much sense on paper, but it's still sports at the end of the day &
>> | Rafa is human. Love to see a final between them & Fed scaring him,
>> | perhaps leading 2 sets to 0 even? Imagine the look on Rafa's face in
>> | that scenario?
>> |
>> |
>>
>> Yes...that would be funny, even better if Fed won the match...
>>
>> FF
>
> From a 'practical - nuts and bolts' point of view, the problem Federer would have against Rafa on clay is the percentage(s) of serves which would come back (WHICH DON'T on, say, hardcourt, be they aces, unretrunables or even 1-2 put away sitters)+

Yes, we saw some of that in Rafa beating Kyrgios today 63 61. Tough to
see Rafa doing that to Nick off clay.

[Whisper]

https://www.google.com.au/#q=cowered

[MBDunc]

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 12:46:27 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
> Yes, we saw some of that in Rafa beating Kyrgios today 63 61. Tough to
> see Rafa doing that to Nick off clay.

I thought all surfaces and players today play same?

.mikko

[John Liang]

Wrong Mikko, didn't Mecir played with a wood racquet in 86 USO ？

[John Liang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oJRYJv2mRs

Have a look at Mecir's racquet at 3:40 mark.

[Whisper]

Same slow speed, just different bounce on clay that gives Rafa the edge.
Rafa is the only guy who can translate that small difference to big
advantage as he hits the ball differently to everyone else.

Nick is also a head case & not established big name - wouldn't be a big
surprise to see him beat Rafa on clay next match if Raf ais just a bit
off & Nick hitting the lines.

[MBDunc]

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 5:14:52 PM UTC+3, John Liang wrote:
> > Noah is officially the last male GS champion with a wood racket. (* note: Connors USO 83 with his good old steel pan)
> >
> > Last male GS finalist with a wood racket was Curren AO 84.
> >
> > .mikko
>
> Wrong Mikko, didn't Mecir played with a wood racquet in 86 USO ？

Cool, I did not know that.

.mikko

[stephenJ]

Cool, i didn't realize that. And kudos for mentioning connors, because
most of us back then thought that the dread T2000 was actually harder to
play with than wood.

[Federer Fanatic]

Gracchus couldn't resist slamming you, even though he was mistaken ;-) and frankly he
should have been pleased with your response as you slammed the howler monkey ;-)

FF

[Whisper]

On 13/05/2017 1:33 AM, stephenJ wrote:
> On 5/11/2017 2:31 PM, MBDunc wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:10:54 PM UTC+3, Shakes wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:59:36 AM UTC-7, MBDunc wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 4:39:27 PM UTC+3, StephenJ wrote:
>>>>> Noah's performance at the 83 FO left me and many others at the time
>>>>> scratching our heads as time went by as to why he could never do it
>>>>> again. He exhibited tremendous S/V skills and athleticism at that
>>>>> event.
>>>>
>>>> Becker said that Noah had strokes of #50+ ranked player
>>>
>>> That BH was not pretty. He would drop his head while hitting it. I
>>> also think Noah was one of the first top players to use an OS frame.
>>
>> Noah is officially the last male GS champion with a wood racket. (*
>> note: Connors USO 83 with his good old steel pan)
>
> Cool, i didn't realize that. And kudos for mentioning connors, because
> most of us back then thought that the dread T2000 was actually harder to
> play with than wood.
>
>

Anybody who could win slams with the T2000 automatically goes into
goat/boat/talent tier 1 category imo.

Can you see Fed/Djoker/Rafa winning a slam with that thing?

[Whisper]

Gracchus is ok. Not too sharp, but I enjoy 5% of his posts.

[RaspingDrive]

'Rafa mentally cowed by Federer' leads him, in turn, to cower. I think 'cowed' is the word to use.

[RaspingDrive]

Gracchus was not mistaken.

[Gracchus]

Whisp, there's no need to feel stung and get all touchy just because I stated an obvious truth. Just admit it--you never even finished high school, did you? Your lowly upbringing and lack of education drips from every one of your posts no matter how you try to dress them up. A "tennis analyst." LOL.

[RaspingDrive]

That was also your estimate of Fed's chances at AO 2017.

[Guypers]

LOL, deadly putdown!!

[Gracchus]

> Gracchus was not mistaken.

Perhaps FF should have checked definitions of both words before saying that I was. A person may cower, but not be "cowered by" someone else.

[joh]

Op vrijdag 12 mei 2017 19:14:36 UTC+2 schreef RaspingDrive:

he probably has no more than 5 fingers

[Federer Fanatic]

Yes...I know ;-)

FF

[Federer Fanatic]

True.. but you should have boosted Whisp's acumen at putting down the howler monkey ;-)

FF

[Federer Fanatic]

Albeit the definitions of cower :

Definition of cower
intransitive verb
: to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays
They all cowered silently in their places, seeming to know in advance that some terrible thing was about to happen. —
George Orwell


versus definition of cowed:

verb
past tense: cowed; past participle: cowed
cause (someone) to submit to one's wishes by intimidation.
"the intellectuals had been cowed into silence"
synonyms: intimidate, daunt, browbeat, bully, tyrannize, scare, terrorize, frighten, dishearten, unnerve, subdue;


are certainly similar but technically different types of verbs. Who really cares? Obviously we know what Whisp meant...

FF

[Gracchus]

Just that he's been making that same glaring elementary school mistake for 20 years or so. I've pointed it out more politely in the past. :) And this is Whisper we're talking about, after all. A guy who claims to have an IQ of 168 and routinely calls people who disagree with him dim, no-nothings, etc. pretty much sets himself up.

[Federer Fanatic]

Yes, he is two-faced, loathsome git.. a snake in the local cesspool of what use to be a nuanced thoughtful forum many,
many, many years ago. What I am baffled at is the continued bantering on matters that are brought up again, again, again again...ad infinitum...

FF

ps. Perhaps if we had full access to the data of Hawk-Eye along with proper statistical analyses. But that, would likely
reduce this group to logical complete argumentsi, "mic drop" conclusions. In short, emotional, unsubstantiated opinion
would die.

[RaspingDrive]

Perhaps the word 'cowered' tickles his fancy that he continues employing it (incorrectly).

[Whisper]

Depends what you mean by mistaken. If mistaken = correct then you're right.

[Whisper]

Are you gainfully employed?

[Whisper]

For all intensive purposes it's the same thing.

[Gracchus]

Funny that you assume I still need to be. This is weak stuff from you Whisp. Much easier to just admit that you were wrong. Everyone makes mistakes. It's only people with character flaws that can't own up to it.

[Gracchus]

You mean for all "intents and purposes." And no, it isn't. Are you sure there are schools in Australia, or is this just a Whisper issue?

[John Liang]

There are schools in Australia but in the school nearest to Whisper's household is a kindergarten, that is where Whisper gained his education.

[RaspingDrive]

Shut up, W! Have some humility to acknowledge mistakes and learn when someone like Gracchus teaches you. It is not a big deal.

[RaspingDrive]

'intensive purposes' is terrible usage, but the miraculous word 'pedant' often gives W an escape route! He has used that word in the past to wriggle out.

[Whisper]

On 14/05/2017 1:16 AM, Gracchus wrote:
> On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 1:31:17 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:
>> On 13/05/2017 3:17 AM, Gracchus wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 10:10:36 AM UTC-7, RaspingDrive wrote:
>
>>>> Gracchus was not mistaken.
>
>>> Perhaps FF should have checked definitions of both words before saying that I was. A person may cower, but not be "cowered by" someone else.
>
>> For all intensive purposes it's the same thing.
>
> You mean for all "intents and purposes."
>

No I meant 'intrinsic purposes'.

You seem to be doing your upmost to signal out minor grammatical issues.

You don't have to ease drop on all my posts.

Your break away seems to have given you a new leash on life.

You're very disingenuine. When all is set & done we're here to talk
about tennis.

: )

[RaspingDrive]

Try the word 'disingenuous'. And what is 'ease drop'?

[Gracchus]

Too late to mask the compound blunders now, Whisp. But nice try. Had you simply admitted the original error and moved on, we would have been back to talking about tennis just as quickly. Your ego made you defend it instead.

[Whisper]

Well, if you look in the archives (> 10 yrs ago) you're not the 1st to
pick me up on 'intents & purposes'. Daresay you won't be the last.



--
"A GOAT who isn't BOAT can never become GOAT if he plays alongside BOAT"

[stephenJ]

On 5/12/2017 11:35 AM, Whisper wrote:
> On 13/05/2017 1:33 AM, stephenJ wrote:
>> On 5/11/2017 2:31 PM, MBDunc wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 10:10:54 PM UTC+3, Shakes wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:59:36 AM UTC-7, MBDunc wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 4:39:27 PM UTC+3, StephenJ wrote:
>>>>>> Noah's performance at the 83 FO left me and many others at the time
>>>>>> scratching our heads as time went by as to why he could never do it
>>>>>> again. He exhibited tremendous S/V skills and athleticism at that
>>>>>> event.
>>>>>
>>>>> Becker said that Noah had strokes of #50+ ranked player
>>>>
>>>> That BH was not pretty. He would drop his head while hitting it. I
>>>> also think Noah was one of the first top players to use an OS frame.
>>>
>>> Noah is officially the last male GS champion with a wood racket. (*
>>> note: Connors USO 83 with his good old steel pan)
>>
>> Cool, i didn't realize that. And kudos for mentioning connors, because
>> most of us back then thought that the dread T2000 was actually harder to
>> play with than wood.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Anybody who could win slams with the T2000 automatically goes into
> goat/boat/talent tier 1 category imo.
>
> Can you see Fed/Djoker/Rafa winning a slam with that thing?


I'm not sure they could get the ball over the net with it. It really did
play like a steel frying pan.




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[Court_1]

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 11:16:09 AM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:

> > For all intensive purposes it's the same thing.
>
> You mean for all "intents and purposes." And no, it isn't. Are you sure there are schools in Australia, or is this just a Whisper issue?

LOL. I just read Whisper's "intensive purposes" post and was just going to correct him until I saw your post.

[Guypers]

I played with that racket, had no problem with it, great for ground strokes!

[Gracchus]

On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 6:02:55 PM UTC-7, Guypers wrote:
> On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 7:30:20 PM UTC-4, StephenJ wrote:

> > I'm not sure they could get the ball over the net with it. It really did
> > play like a steel frying pan.

> I played with that racket, had no problem with it, great for ground strokes!

It was the one I started playing with. Had nothing to compare it with at the time, so when I switched to a wood racquet, big contrast. The T-2000 was okay. It's the T-1000 you have to look out for. He's dangerous.

[Whisper]

: )

[Whisper]

Every time I use 'intensive purposes' it ends up being a long & lively
thread. The 1st time was about 15 yrs ago - that was funny.

: )

[Pelle Svanslös]

Yep. It screamed typo troll.

--
“Donald Trump is the weak man’s vision of a strong man.”
-- Charles Cooke

[stephenJ]

On 5/12/2017 12:11 PM, Gracchus wrote:
> On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 9:43:21 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:

>> On 13/05/2017 2:35 AM, Federer Fanatic wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 May 2017 23:59:44 +1000, Whisper <beav...@ozemail.com> wrote:
>>> | On 12/05/2017 3:45 AM, Gracchus wrote:
>>> |> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 5:15:58 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:
>>> |>> On 11/05/2017 9:27 PM, Federer Fanatic wrote:
>>> |>
>>> |>>> Yes...that would be funny, even better if Fed won the match...
>>> |>
>>> |>> It really would be something to see Rafa mentally cowered by Fed for a
>>> |>> change, & at FO of all places.
>>> |>
>>> |> The word is "COWED" -- not "cowered." Time for you to go back and get that high school diploma.
>>> |>
>>> |
>>> |
>>> | https://www.google.com.au/#q=cowered
>>> |
>>> |
>>>
>>> Gracchus couldn't resist slamming you, even though he was mistaken ;-) and frankly he
>>> should have been pleased with your response as you slammed the howler monkey ;-)
>>>
>>> FF
>>>
>>
>>

>> Gracchus is ok. Not too sharp, but I enjoy 5% of his posts.
>
> Whisp, there's no need to feel stung and get all touchy just because I stated an obvious truth.

You've been owned here. Just get back to talking tennis and not trying
to play the diction police.

[bob]

why all the commotion about grammar courty, you make quite a few
mistakes considering it's your 1st language. every week i let 1-2 of
yours slide, i don't find it a big deal.

i don't even speak another language minus a smidgeon of italian so i
try not to go for the jugular on grammar/syntax by a non native
speaker like whisp who speaks at least 2, probabably more, languages.

i understand graccus' issue though: it's not the grammatical error,
it's that he thinks whisp should own up to mistakes rather than defend
them, and he's making the case it's part of a larger whisp character
issue. that's the issue here, and gracchus is entitled to his opinion.
but end of the day, it's a grammatical issue by a non native speaker -
if we really nitpicked grammar in RST it'd be a full time job.

bob

[Court_1]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:


> why all the commotion about grammar courty,

Because "intensive purposes" is incorrect.

> you make quite a few
> mistakes

I do not! Typos maybe but not many grammatical errors.

> considering it's your 1st language. every week i let 1-2 of
> yours slide, i don't find it a big deal.

How do you know what my first language is or how many languages I speak?

> i don't even speak another language minus a smidgeon of italian so i
> try not to go for the jugular on grammar/syntax by a non native
> speaker like whisp who speaks at least 2, probabably more, languages.

You may want to work on your own spelling (it's smidgen and probably.)

How do you know what Whisper's first language is or how many languages he speaks?

> i understand graccus' issue though: it's not the grammatical error,
> it's that he thinks whisp should own up to mistakes

It's both.

[RaspingDrive]

I suppose you missed 'disingenuine' and 'ease drop'. Are there words like that?

[RaspingDrive]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:

No commotion at all.

[RaspingDrive]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:41:14 AM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>
>
> > why all the commotion about grammar courty,
>
> Because "intensive purposes" is incorrect.

And, more significantly, W writes for posterity.

> > you make quite a few
> > mistakes
>
> I do not! Typos maybe but not many grammatical errors.

Incorrect words need to be corrected for the sake of posterity ;)

[Gracchus]

Exactly, though more the latter. I don't point these things out customarily or write multiple posts about them. I did in this case because (1) he's been making the same mistake for years and it stands out embarrassingly like a sore thumb (2) being Whisper, he insisted his usage was correct once I did point it out and then threw up a smokescreen after a second blunder.

Everyone has occasional typos and grammatical errors. It's no huge deal, but most "normal" people will just acknowledge the mistake, have a laugh about it and move on.

[Guypers]

Booby defends the errors too!!

[bob]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 05:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
<olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>
>
>> why all the commotion about grammar courty,
>
>Because "intensive purposes" is incorrect.
>
>
>> you make quite a few
>> mistakes
>
>I do not! Typos maybe but not many grammatical errors.
>
>> considering it's your 1st language. every week i let 1-2 of
>> yours slide, i don't find it a big deal.
>
>How do you know what my first language is or how many languages I speak?
>
>> i don't even speak another language minus a smidgeon of italian so i
>> try not to go for the jugular on grammar/syntax by a non native
>> speaker like whisp who speaks at least 2, probabably more, languages.
>
>You may want to work on your own spelling (it's smidgen and probably.)

exactly, which is why i try not to make any big deal of spelling or
grammatical errors in a newsgroup with people from many countries,
some with spell checker, some not, some proofreading their work, some
not. get to the content!

>How do you know what Whisper's first language is or how many languages he speaks?

i know english is his 2nd.

>> i understand graccus' issue though: it's not the grammatical error,
>> it's that he thinks whisp should own up to mistakes
>
>It's both.

bob

[bob]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 09:40:49 -0700 (PDT), Guypers <gap...@gmail.com>

i rarely attack grammatical errors because they're rampant in rst. we
have many speaking a 2nd language and others who just make mistakes
grammatically like me! and btw, you, courty and many others aren't
innocent, i just let a lot of them slide.

but gracchus' main point here goes deeper than the grammar.

bob

[Federer Fanatic]

On Sun, 14 May 2017 16:21:12 -0400, bob <b...@nospam.net> wrote:
| On Sun, 14 May 2017 05:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Court_1
|<olymp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
|>On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:
|>
|>
|>> why all the commotion about grammar courty,
|>
|>Because "intensive purposes" is incorrect.
|>
|>
|>> you make quite a few
|>> mistakes
|>
|>I do not! Typos maybe but not many grammatical errors.
|>
|>> considering it's your 1st language. every week i let 1-2 of
|>> yours slide, i don't find it a big deal.
|>
|>How do you know what my first language is or how many languages I speak?
|>
|>> i don't even speak another language minus a smidgeon of italian so i
|>> try not to go for the jugular on grammar/syntax by a non native
|>> speaker like whisp who speaks at least 2, probabably more, languages.
|>
|>You may want to work on your own spelling (it's smidgen and probably.)
|
| exactly, which is why i try not to make any big deal of spelling or
| grammatical errors in a newsgroup with people from many countries,
| some with spell checker, some not, some proofreading their work, some
| not. get to the content!
|
|>How do you know what Whisper's first language is or how many languages he speaks?
|
| i know english is his 2nd.
|

When did you last visit him? He's Croatian isn't he?

FF

[Gracchus]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 2:09:03 PM UTC-7, Federer Fanatic wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2017 16:21:12 -0400, bob <b...@nospam.net> wrote:
> | On Sun, 14 May 2017 05:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Court_1

> |>How do you know what Whisper's first language is or how many languages he speaks?

> | i know english is his 2nd.

> When did you last visit him? He's Croatian isn't he?

Really? That's pretty funny.

[bob]

i've never been to australia, never met whisper. the only RSTer i ever
met in person was amy cottrell. yrs ago wendy grossman emailed me 1
time to meet at the miami tournament but she sent it to an old email
and i saw it months later. and i'm going to buy max a beer at a
fascist rally in munich this summer.

bob

[Shakes]

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 5:39:31 PM UTC-7, bob wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2017 16:08:57 -0500, Federer Fanatic

> >When did you last visit him? He's Croatian isn't he?
>
> i've never been to australia, never met whisper. the only RSTer i ever
> met in person was amy cottrell. yrs ago wendy grossman emailed me 1
> time to meet at the miami tournament but she sent it to an old email
> and i saw it months later. and i'm going to buy max a beer at a
> fascist rally in munich this summer.
>
> bob

Didn't you and Amy used to argue/debate a lot back then ? Or was that someone else ?

[Shakes]

Yes, IIRC, Whisper has Croatian blood in him. Not sure if both his parents are Croatian, though.

[Whisper]

You missed a few more.

: )

[Whisper]

On 15/05/2017 12:23 AM, RaspingDrive wrote:
> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:41:14 AM UTC-4, Court_1 wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 8:01:14 AM UTC-4, bob wrote:
>>
>>
>>> why all the commotion about grammar courty,
>>
>> Because "intensive purposes" is incorrect.
>
> And, more significantly, W writes for posterity.
>

It's funny how angry some people get when they see 'intensive purposes'.
Never fails to get a response.

[Whisper]

Most people probably smirk & move on without comment. I like the
emotional responses better.

[Whisper]

Gracchus has thin skin. I'm trying to help him, toughen him up. It's a
cold hard world out there he's not well equipped to handle.

[Whisper]

Born in Osijek. I speak Hrvatski, German & French.



--
"A GOAT who isn't BOAT can never become GOAT if he plays alongside BOAT"

[TT]

:)

[Whisper]

Yes, they are both blue chip Hrvati. I was born there, emigrated to
Australia at age 4. Wife is part French.

I consider myself a citizen of the world.

[Guypers]

No english!

[Whisper]

> No english!
>


Apparently not too well.

[RaspingDrive]

No one is angry. Just having fun.