to the 'anti-government conservatives'
Scott
generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department
of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the
municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the
FCC-regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the
national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the
weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and
launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I
watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture
inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe
by the food and drug administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept
accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the
US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety
administration- approved automobile and set out to work on the roads
built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation,
possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level
determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender
issued by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit
any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the
kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks
to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and
the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another
two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my
NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned
down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and
fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all
its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense
advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.
com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because
the government can’t do anything right.
DavidW
> its valuables thanks to the local police department.
>
> I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense
> advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.
> com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because
Is this the same Scott who's suspicious that RST is alive with CIA spooks filing
away every word he writes and probably bugging his home?
Scott
is this the same David W who claims to be from "Australia", yet is
posting at 12:08 PM Melbourne time? don't you have a real "job" to go
to tomorrow?
DavidW
That's the one. I'm just trying to reconcile the apparent pro-government
position in your OP (compellingly argued, BTW) and your past government-agency
paranoia.
Superdave
a job? rst'ers have jobs? i thought we were all spoiled rich kids no?
Carey
Not to mention Fire Departments, Police, Primary and Secondary
education..
(though the loony Right would have done with the latter).
John Doe
Scott <scottl44 yahoo.com> wrote:
> Path: news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!postnews.google.com!c36g2000yqm.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: Scott <scottl44 yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.sport.tennis
> Subject: to the 'anti-government conservatives'
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Lines: 37
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> fire marshalÉ Ts inspection, and which has not been plundered of all
> its valuables thanks to the local police department.
>
> I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense
> advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.
> com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because
> the government canÉ Tt do anything right.
>
>
>
Fan
You chose to attack the person instead his logic. The article uses the
same argument door-to-door salespeople and Jehovah’s witnesses do. It
lines up a number of things that are good (or bad) to put the person
in a receptive mind for the last sales pitch.
Without taking sides on the health care bill (Fox is nuts but that is
beside the point), I find the argument misleading and find those
presenting it not credible.
I am not ready to say if I support the health care bill or not (have
my own insurance) but to argue in its favor like this is not going to
convince me.
Iceberg
you'd better watch it, he might shoot you with a govt approved firearm
or poison you with FDA approved aspartame or some other deadly drug
that the US govt permit you to buy over the counter.
Iceberg
Interesting arguments I saw on yank TV when I was over there, saying
that healthcare standards will drop, it'd be all about the money over
here. As an Englishman I still find it odd though, that a society of
your level still doesn't have universal free healthcare.
Fan
I make no argument about the health care bill, one-way or other. It is
the argument in favor of health care bill that I find not worthy.
Sometimes, people will go on a patriotic tirade and at the end try to
sell you a vacuum cleaner for five times than what it is worth.
Did you notice that there was not a single thing telling you why the
health care bill was the right thing?
Pat Robertson is great at firing off a lot of things that everybody
agrees with and at the end asks you for a large donation for his sect.
Watchtower is another one of those magazines that tells you a lot of
things that are true but very cleverly turn it into propaganda for
their sect. These are all variations of tried and true shell game.
kaennorsing
> its valuables thanks to the local police department.
>
> I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense
> advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.
> com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because
Statism is much like religion. If you believe it's more efficient and
desirable to give half your wealth to bureaucrats or politicians -
who'll keep their job no matter how they perform - and spend your
money for you instead of you spending it yourself on what you want and
need, well ... good luck to you.
Just dont expect everybody to feel the same way.
Carey
-Did you notice that there are three egregious non sequiturs
in your post? Just wondering.
Iceberg
I don't understand, I saw Obama talk about some woman who's health
insurance premium went up when she was diagnosed with cancer and kept
increasing so much she couldn't afford it in the end, that was one of
his arguments for the healthcare bill.
Carey
-I've noticed that those who benefit the most from the largesse of the
State
are often the first to deride it.. where do you reside, Sir?
Iceberg
yeah I find that a bizarre mentality, socialists seem to be happy to
give all their money to politicians without any regard whatsoever
about how it's spent, they trust them implicitly, without question, no
matter what their past record has been, I find that nuts. I'm happy to
pay taxes, as long as it's not spent on shit, the problem is, it
frequently is.
kaennorsing
Could be true. Maybe because they witness first-hand the inefficiency,
corruption and destruction of the state?
> where do you reside, Sir?
I'm in Holland and although most of ourselves wealthy and free we
certainly fund a massive state and get taxed accordingly and obviously
still run up our public debt like there's no tomorrow.
Fan
I was not following it closely and have no opinions about the bill (it
is actually a law since it passed). I would hope that there are better
arguments for it than the one Scott presented. People on both sides
have very strong feelings about it. I do not. I wanted to point out
that the argument Scott posted is an old one and that it is often used
to sell stuff.
Carey
So you off-handedly assume the um, private sector does better?
If so, have you considered the *costs of efficiency*?
Sometimes, slop is good.
Come to America, let your various gov't guaranteed insurances
lapse, get sick; then let's talk about it.
kaennorsing
Your government made healthcare as expensive as it is with all their
regulations, not the private sector. It will get a lot more expensive
now with the public plan, which is actually a public tax and a
corporate subsidy. Insurers will first make lots of profits, then
they'll go bankrupt and then they will be bailed out for being 'too
big to fail'.
Or you think doctors would be able to charge what they charge if not
for their government sponsored subsidies and protections? If there was
real competition instead of monopoly on doctors and medicine?
Carey
I'm interested in this deep knowledge you have of the American
healthcare (tm)
system- where did you get it? Are you willing to exchange your Dutch
system
for the actually existing American one? Very willing to trade, bro-
Carey
You benefit greatly from a generous system.
Keep complaining as you reap your benefits..
Superdave
doctors get paid too much for what they do. there is no competition because they
are all part of a little club that they keep "little" with most new doctors
being their own sons and daughters who get "preference" to enter medical school.
WTF?
It's a managed monopoly and restraint of trade.
Time we out an end to that gravy train shit.
kaennorsing
No interest, sorry. We don't have a perfect system either, but much
better than yours. We have more choice, less special interest to
determine policy (read: more honest competition) and so far less cost
and more (read: everyone) insured. Those are the biggest differences.
kaennorsing
I reap the benefits from a relative free society and market, but am
taxed heavily and relatively restricted by the burden of public policy.
Superdave
wrote:
I have a lot of doctor friends. At least 20 (doctors and dentists) are among
my closest friends.
Most of them have a child who is also a doctor or a dentist.
Some have 3 children and all 3 are doctors !
And, I can say with certainty it's *not* the genes.
I was at a dinner last night thrown by a very famous oncologist.
At least 70% of the invitees were doctors(55%) or lawyers(15%).
I like them all to be sure but to be honest they are all underworked and
overpaid.
The fact is that people are dying so they can play golf.
People who can't afford their fees to keep them busy enough so they have no time
to play golf.
There is something wrong with that.
Most of them are very generous though and donate a lot to good causes, go to
Africa for a couple weeks a year to do pro-bono medical care, etc.
That's appreciated but not enough.
The entire system needs to be changed. We need doctors coming out the wazoo.
We need doctors hungry for patients so they can pay the mortgage or who starve
otherwise.
That's what's called a free market. We are all told that is how it should be.
They why not with doctors and lawyers too ?
Why are "they" allowed to play games with supply and demand to get rich and
nobody else is allowed to ?
Speak up.
Whisper
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:31:28 +0800, Superdave<the.big.r...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> doctors get paid too much for what they do. there is no competition because they
>> are all part of a little club that they keep "little" with most new doctors
>> being their own sons and daughters who get "preference" to enter medical school.
>>
>> WTF?
>>
>> It's a managed monopoly and restraint of trade.
>>
>> Time we out an end to that gravy train shit.
>
>
> I have a lot of doctor friends. At least 20 (doctors and dentists) are among
> my closest friends.
>
You must have hundreds of close friends if 20 of them are doctors? I
suggest you stop posting like a dickhead on rst & take time to nurture
some of these close friendships no?
Joe Ramirez
Scott's post is not an argument *for* a particular health care
proposal so much as an argument *against* the dogmatic, ideological
view that government involvement in any program automatically equals
doom. Once that myth is exploded -- as Scott's little essay does
effectively -- rational debate on the merits of health care may be
possible, with all options fairly considered, rather than some
rejected out of right-wing paranoia.
kaennorsing
... or left wing paranoia. All of Scott's points of government
involvement turning into something positive would have likely been
achieved in a more free society by private incentives - only more of
them and much faster, cheaper and more durable. I'm not saying a
government is necessarily evil, but it's a force that has to be
restraint. A government costs is not what it taxes but what it spends
and what it spends it either takes in taxes, borrows from the future
or downright steels. If the state didn't tax, borrow and steel as much
there'd be a *lot* more capital available for small businesses to
invest privately. Most innovation is born and still occurs in the
private sector even with this capital drain. Note I'm not talking
about a specific government here but in general.
Government tends to grow as it has no competition. There's a reason to
dread the growth. Defining the power of the state is a crucial problem
a society has to answer as it directly effects the lives of everyone
involved. Look throughout history and decide which people had higher
standards of living. The ones in countries with limited and clearly
defined state power or those with undefined and unlimited power of the
state? How did those totalitarian regimes occur in the past? Why were
the middle ages so depressed and why did it last so long? Was it
because people forgot how to feed themselves? Or because people were
willing to give up their freedom and put all their trust in political
leaders - no different then the direction a lot of western countries
are headed in today? For greater insight in this I suggest everyone
reed the Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek. Even Keynes loved it even
though he was and remains the politicians' favourite economist.
Joe Ramirez
Actually, I think Scott did a pretty good job of zeroing in on
examples of social goods that, historically, private markets have done
a poor job of providing. For example, the great road networks
throughout history have been government productions. The Roman roads,
the Incan roads, the great wall of China, the U.S. national highway
system -- what private actors could or would have constructed such
infrastructure assets? Answer: none that we know of. When private
actors do serve as the spearheads, they still require massive
governmental assistance (e.g., U.S. transcontinental railroad).
It's easy to claim that private behavior would magically satisfy all
wants in a "more free society." However, I believe the vast majority
of citizens would be unwilling to bet absolutely everything on an
experiment with 100% pure libertarianism. Sometimes self-interest writ
large just isn't enough.
kaennorsing
Sure, I agree railroads and interstate roads are good examples of
public initiatives. Also some environmental protection and obviously
national defence. However not health care, labour, education or any
kind of innovation. I also believe the state should stay away from
economics and monetary control and we should get rid of intellectual
property rights. It makes no sense.
DavidW
I wasn't attacking him at all. His post seems inconsistent with his past
government-related paranoia, that's all, so I'm puzzled.
> The article uses the
> same argument door-to-door salespeople and Jehovah�s witnesses do. It
> lines up a number of things that are good (or bad) to put the person
> in a receptive mind for the last sales pitch.
> Without taking sides on the health care bill (Fox is nuts but that is
> beside the point), I find the argument misleading and find those
> presenting it not credible.
> I am not ready to say if I support the health care bill or not (have
> my own insurance) but to argue in its favor like this is not going to
> convince me.
I didn't think his point was to argue for the health-care bill, but rather to
point out the weakness of the argument of those who oppose it, and I thought he
did that very well. It could have been any other bill that people oppose on the
grounds that government regulation and involvement in people's lives is
inherently bad and therefore the bill is bad.
Scott
I didn't write it...sorry for the confusion.
i found it on a listserv.
Superdave
er no. most of my close friends are doctors.
Fan
> Fan wrote:
(...)
>
> > You chose to attack the person instead his logic.
>
> I wasn't attacking him at all. His post seems inconsistent with his past
> government-related paranoia, that's all, so I'm puzzled.
>
> > The article uses the
> > same argument door-to-door salespeople and Jehovah s witnesses do. It
> > lines up a number of things that are good (or bad) to put the person
> > in a receptive mind for the last sales pitch.
> > Without taking sides on the health care bill (Fox is nuts but that is
> > beside the point), I find the argument misleading and find those
> > presenting it not credible.
> > I am not ready to say if I support the health care bill or not (have
> > my own insurance) but to argue in its favor like this is not going to
> > convince me.
>
> I didn't think his point was to argue for the health-care bill, but rather to
> point out the weakness of the argument of those who oppose it, and I thought he
> did that very well. It could have been any other bill that people oppose on the
> grounds that government regulation and involvement in people's lives is
The problem is that his post was arguing that government involvement
is inherently good :-)
He listed all the good thing government does and used them to argue
that government involvement in health has to be good. I do not even
have a position on government involvement in health care especially
since government is already involved in health care. We are talking
about more government in health care and I do not know if that is good
or bad. You would not find me demonstrating for or protesting against
it. I do not know how it will work and if it will help or hurt things.
I am not arguing for or against more government involvement in health
care.
I just wanted to say that the argument used is faulty because it uses
the same argument vacuum cleaner and various other products pushing
salespeople use. To illustrate my point, an opposing argument could
have listed all the things the government screwed up and use them
against the health care bill. That argument would have been just as
meaningless as the one Scott presented.
I have to admit that people screaming and waving signs about this
health care bill being the sign of Communist takeover of America is
just stupid. This is a very emotional issue for a lot of people and I
am not exactly sure why…
Fan
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:25:05 +1000, Whisper <beave...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >On 4/13/2010 10:53 PM, Superdave wrote:
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> doctors get paid too much for what they do. there is no competition because they
> >>> are all part of a little club that they keep "little" with most new doctors
> >>> being their own sons and daughters who get "preference" to enter medical school.
>
> >>> WTF?
>
> >>> It's a managed monopoly and restraint of trade.
>
> >>> Time we out an end to that gravy train shit.
>
> >> I have a lot of doctor friends. At least 20 (doctors and dentists) are among
> >> my closest friends.
>
> >You must have hundreds of close friends if 20 of them are doctors? I
> >suggest you stop posting like a dickhead on rst & take time to nurture
> >some of these close friendships no?
>
Keep them very close...
Whisper
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:25:05 +1000, Whisper<beav...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On 4/13/2010 10:53 PM, Superdave wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:31:28 +0800, Superdave<the.big.r...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> doctors get paid too much for what they do. there is no competition because they
>>>> are all part of a little club that they keep "little" with most new doctors
>>>> being their own sons and daughters who get "preference" to enter medical school.
>>>>
>>>> WTF?
>>>>
>>>> It's a managed monopoly and restraint of trade.
>>>>
>>>> Time we out an end to that gravy train shit.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a lot of doctor friends. At least 20 (doctors and dentists) are among
>>> my closest friends.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You must have hundreds of close friends if 20 of them are doctors? I
>> some of these close friendships no?
>
>
> er no. most of my close friends are doctors.
They're breaching doctor/patient protocol by socializing with you.
Superdave
it's ok cause the rest of my friends are lawyers.
kaennorsing
Because it forces people to buy health insurance they may not need or
want. People like to have a choice in what they buy as no product or
service fits all. Why insure what doesn't need to be insured? It's not
efficient. From what I also understand of the bill; if you don't buy
insurance you will be fined I believe 500 dollars. This fine is lower
than the actual premium you pay over a year, but the government forces
insurance companies to accept this fine as an immediate insurance
policy for the individual and pay-out the medical costs of the insured
at the moment you're insured. So you will be insured when you pay the
fine. This goes beyond the actual concept of insurance. It will result
in a lot of people not buying the health insurance until they need the
coverage - when medical costs run through the roof. So they'll have
paid less for the insurance (the fine) with the same outcome; coverage
of medical costs. This will bankrupt the insurance companies over the
long run as they can't possibly cover their expenses.
Of course, in the short run the insurance companies can make huge
profits as they receive the premiums from people who weren't insured
before wish to comply with regulations. When the insurers go bust
they'll be considered 'too big to fail'. This is why it's considered a
very short-sighted solution that will eventually drive costs up even
more and bankrupt the country. Other than that I hear the democrats
also stuck some kind of legislation on student loans in the health
care bill that will give an incentive to universities to charge by
even more as these loans are covered by the government and the
students don't actually have to pay back the loan. Meaning the student
will no longer care how much he borrows to go through college and the
schools will charge accordingly. The student loans are what made
college tuitions so expensive in the first place and this will lead to
even higher prices. How the hell this ends up in a health care bill
though is beyond me.
Fan
(...)>
The funny thing is that this is the 39th post and the first and only
argument about the heath care bill :-)
DavidW
Bullshit. You can't understand a simple argument. Many people who
oppose the bill do so because they say that government intervention is
_inherently_ bad, so the post is arguing that that's not true by
pointing out many good things government does. It's not saying that
therefore all government intervention is good. Those are very
different points. Fuck, it's so obvious. All you have to do is read it
_slowly and carefully_. My home computer is playing up so I've made a
special trip to an internet cafe to buy time just to make this post
because I can't stand such dumbness. Imbecile.
Fan
It is so disappointing to see another post without any valid argument
pro or contra health bill. We have just one post, the only post from
kaennorsing arguing against the health bill.
Before I make up my mind, I would like to see at least one post
arguing in favor of the health bill on its merits. So far, not a one,
only people trying to sell me very expensive vacuum cleaners I can get
one at any appliance store.
The last moron said not one word for the health bill but thinks that
it is enough to say that the government does many wonderful things and
call me names. That is his argument. The government does good things,
bad things, and horrible things. We need to argue the health bill on
its merits but better yet not even talk about it on a tennis list.
Pelle Svanslös
TT
Great song.
Now...somewhat late after the fact...I have learned that the song is
called "live is life"...instead of "life is life" which I thought it was
back then. Goddamn they pronounce "live" strangely!
TT
...or perhaps I was thinking about different "live"...
What the heck does it mean?
(to) live is life would make sense...
(being) live is life...mmmmm...
TT
Sorry about thread hijack...
Nanananana
Nanananana (all together now)
Nanananana
Nanananana
Life (nanananana)
Life is life (nanananana)
Labadab dab dab life (nanananana)
Liiiiiiiife (nanananana)
When we all give the power
We all give the best
Every minute of an hour
Don't think about the rest
And you all get the power
You all get the best
When everyone gets everything
And every song everybody sings
And it's life (nanananana)
Life is life (nanananana)
Life is life (nanananana)
Labadab dab dab life (nanananana)
Life is life when we all feel the power
Life is life come on, stand up and dance
Life is life when the feeling of the people
Life is life is the feeling of the band
When we all give the power
We all give the best
Every minute of an hour
Don't think about the rest
Then you all get the power
You all get the best
When everyone gives everything
And every song everybody sings
And it's life (nanananana)
Life is life (nanananana)
Labadab dab dab life (nanananana)
Life is life (nanananana)
Life (nanananana)
(nanananana)
(nanananana)
(nanananana)
Life (nanananana)
Life is life (nanananana)
Labadab dab dab life (nanananana)
Live is life (nanananana)
And you call when it's over
You call it should last
Every minute of the future
Is a memory of the past
Cause we all gave the power
We all gave the best
And everyone gave everything
And every song everybody sang
Life is life
DavidW
Fuck, no one can be this stupid.
Fan
You are but for you to know, you would have to be not so stupid