> You know, one thing I learned in watching my friends' kids and their > friends is that it's really not a good idea to be so snobbish about > education.
No argument there, and there wasn't meant to be one.
>Community colleges vary a great deal according to the area > they're in and on what terms you're admitted; they also do make it > possible for people to continue in education who would not be otherwise. > Getting in might not mean anything but it DOES mean something if they > actually PASSED the courses they took.
Well -- I'll agree that they can and do offer good courses. But I would say that you cannot draw conclusions based on community college work. A brilliant person can have gone to community college, or NOT have gone to even a community college. The point is, because the admission criteria are so low, some of the courses have to be at an equally low level. (There are community colleges that teach *reading*, for pity's sake.) Saying, "I took a community college course" simply doesn't prove anything.
[ ... ]
> > After all, it caused Serena to confuse "formal education" with > > "intelligence." (Hint, Serena: Isaac Newton never went to high > > school. :-)
> I'm not sure she was confused. Hingis dropped out of school very young.
True. So what? That doesn't say a thing about EITHER of their intelligences. That's the point I'm getting at. I don't know who would do better on an IQ test. (Even if one assumes IQ tests mean something, and I don't believe they do.) Intelligence is not something created by education. At best, it is *encouraged* by education. But a person with no formal schooling can be as smart as the most overstuffed professor in the world. Serena said that Hingis said something stupid because Hingis wasn't formally educated. No, if Hingis said something stupid, it's because Hingis says stupid things, not because she's uneducated.
I thought about putting a smiley on that statement, but I won't. I mean it. Education is *not* intelligence, and the two should not be confused -- and on the evidence, Serena *is* confusing them.
[ ... ]
> > Even if MJF played with a college team, she is still ranked below > > Kremer at present. :-)
> Oh, come on. MJF has been in the top 20 most of her career, and is a > two-time GS finalist. Her problem is injuries, which could have happened > even if she'd dropped out of school at 12.
You're nitpicking my nitpick. :-) I was offering a list -- a correct list, from what I've heard -- of the highest-ranked players to go to college. I'm not arguing that MJF isn't a better player than Kremer or Raymond; I believe she is. But that doesn't show on the ranking list. :-)
--- Robert B. Waltz (replying from my emergency backup usenet server...) waltzmn.nos...@skypoint.nospam.com You know what to take out
waltzmn.nos...@skypoint.nospam.com (Robert B. Waltz) wrote:
> wen...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote: > > They are supposed also to have taken some community college courses -- so > > their home schooling must have been adequate. > I realize you've been in Britain for a while, but surely you know that > there is only one qualification needed to take introductory courses > as a community college. That qualification being that you're breathing....
Well, you've got to *want* to. Most players have never made any effort to take any college classes (heck, even high school classes), even though I assume they're all breathing. Surely you can find an ounce of admiration for a girl (and her parents) who are willing to do *something* intellectual ... even if their standards don't quite match yours.
> After all, it caused Serena to confuse "formal education" with > "intelligence." (Hint, Serena: Isaac Newton never went to high > school. :-)
I think Serena was just trying to respond in kind to Martina's bitchy comment. Give the poor girl some time; she hasn't had all the practice Martina has had in that area.
> > > So the last top player to complete a *real* high school education > > > remains Davenport. There are, of course, players who have gone to > > > college -- but it appears that the highest-ranked female players to have > > > gone to college seriously are Raymond (#29) and Kremer (#31). (At > > > least, I think Raymond went to Stanford. I know Kremer did.)
> > I thought Raymond went to Florida.
> You're probably right. I knew she went to college. I didn't know > the school, and guessed Stanford.
You should get these important details straight, Robert, or we'll get confused about whether you're unintelligent or just not formally educated well enough :-)
> > It makes it harder, but four languages still beat two.
> As a sign of intelligence/learning? I don't think that follows. > I'd still give the palm to Serena here; she learned a language > voluntarily, whereas Hingis had no real choice. > I don't think this is something we can actually settle, since > there are no genuine tests for intelligence. All parties in > the dispute clearly fail the "knowing when to keep their > mouths shut" test. :-)
That, unfortunately, has nothing to do with intelligence, nor with education, but with temperament.
dgos...@emory.edu (dar) wrote: > > I realize you've been in Britain for a while, but surely you know that > > there is only one qualification needed to take introductory courses > > as a community college. That qualification being that you're breathing....
> Well, you've got to *want* to. Most players have never made any effort to > take any college classes (heck, even high school classes), even though I > assume they're all breathing. Surely you can find an ounce of admiration > for a girl (and her parents) who are willing to do *something* > intellectual ... even if their standards don't quite match yours.
*Fashion design* is intellectual?
I don't expect her to go into the sciences; apart from the creationism thing, I gather Serena is not fond of math. OK, I can accept that (even if I can't understand it :-). But I refuse to accept fashion as formal education!
If you'll notice, I've been applauding Serena's desire to learn foreign languages. It's something more Americans should do. This is different.
[ ... ]
> > > > So the last top player to complete a *real* high school education > > > > remains Davenport. There are, of course, players who have gone to > > > > college -- but it appears that the highest-ranked female players to have > > > > gone to college seriously are Raymond (#29) and Kremer (#31). (At > > > > least, I think Raymond went to Stanford. I know Kremer did.)
> > > I thought Raymond went to Florida.
> > You're probably right. I knew she went to college. I didn't know > > the school, and guessed Stanford.
> You should get these important details straight, Robert, or we'll get > confused about whether you're unintelligent or just not formally educated > well enough :-)
Well, I *did* put a disclaimer on it. :-)
[ ... ]
> > I don't think this is something we can actually settle, since > > there are no genuine tests for intelligence. All parties in > > the dispute clearly fail the "knowing when to keep their > > mouths shut" test. :-)
> That, unfortunately, has nothing to do with intelligence, nor with > education, but with temperament.
As I so amply demonstrate, right? :-)
OK, I'm off this thread. I won't read it any more. If anyone wants to argue, argue amongst yourselves.
--- Robert B. Waltz (replying from my emergency backup usenet server...) waltzmn.nos...@skypoint.nospam.com You know what to take out
waltzmn.nos...@skypoint.nospam.com (Robert B. Waltz) wrote:
> dgos...@emory.edu (dar) wrote: > > > I realize you've been in Britain for a while, but surely you know that > > > there is only one qualification needed to take introductory courses > > > as a community college. That qualification being that you're breathing.... > > Well, you've got to *want* to. Most players have never made any effort to > > take any college classes (heck, even high school classes), even though I > > assume they're all breathing. Surely you can find an ounce of admiration > > for a girl (and her parents) who are willing to do *something* > > intellectual ... even if their standards don't quite match yours. > *Fashion design* is intellectual?
In that it requires the use of the intellect, yes. Don't be such a science snob. I have studied art (at a university even) and found it intellectually rigorous and fulfilling. If you don't understand how fashion design *could* challenge and expand one's intellect, then I suggest you take a course in it. (I hear Sally Struthers offers one you can take by mail, if you're afraid of the entrance exams at a community college. ;-)
> I don't expect her to go into the sciences; apart from the creationism > thing, I gather Serena is not fond of math. OK, I can accept that > (even if I can't understand it :-). But I refuse to accept fashion > as formal education!
Formals are very important to education. What else would a girl wear to the prom?
> > > I don't think this is something we can actually settle, since > > > there are no genuine tests for intelligence. All parties in > > > the dispute clearly fail the "knowing when to keep their > > > mouths shut" test. :-)
> > That, unfortunately, has nothing to do with intelligence, nor with > > education, but with temperament.
> As I so amply demonstrate, right? :-)
> OK, I'm off this thread. I won't read it any more. If anyone wants to > argue, argue amongst yourselves.
Chickenshit <g> .... there's nothing to argue. I would just suggest that all the left brainers out there stop criticizing the right brainers for being right brainers, and vice versa.
> > > They are supposed also to have taken some community college courses -- so > > > their home schooling must have been adequate.
> > I realize you've been in Britain for a while, but surely you know that > > there is only one qualification needed to take introductory courses > > as a community college. That qualification being that you're breathing....
> Well, you've got to *want* to. Most players have never made any effort to > take any college classes (heck, even high school classes), even though I > assume they're all breathing. Surely you can find an ounce of admiration > for a girl (and her parents) who are willing to do *something* > intellectual ... even if their standards don't quite match yours.
> > After all, it caused Serena to confuse "formal education" with > > "intelligence." (Hint, Serena: Isaac Newton never went to high > > school. :-)
> I think Serena was just trying to respond in kind to Martina's bitchy > comment. Give the poor girl some time; she hasn't had all the practice > Martina has had in that area.
> > > > So the last top player to complete a *real* high school education > > > > remains Davenport. There are, of course, players who have gone to > > > > college -- but it appears that the highest-ranked female players to have > > > > gone to college seriously are Raymond (#29) and Kremer (#31). (At > > > > least, I think Raymond went to Stanford. I know Kremer did.)
> > > I thought Raymond went to Florida.
> > You're probably right. I knew she went to college. I didn't know > > the school, and guessed Stanford.
> You should get these important details straight, Robert, or we'll get > confused about whether you're unintelligent or just not formally educated > well enough :-)
> > > It makes it harder, but four languages still beat two.
> > As a sign of intelligence/learning? I don't think that follows. > > I'd still give the palm to Serena here; she learned a language > > voluntarily, whereas Hingis had no real choice.
> > I don't think this is something we can actually settle, since > > there are no genuine tests for intelligence. All parties in > > the dispute clearly fail the "knowing when to keep their > > mouths shut" test. :-)
> That, unfortunately, has nothing to do with intelligence, nor with > education, but with temperament.
> dar
Serena has it right when she talks about Martina's problems stemming from her lack of a formal education. Most european kids get at least a State provided formal education..heck i believe Kournikova put in many hours in the classroom...Martina spent few hours in classroom getting a formal education!
They (both Hingis and father Williams) have big attitudes and big mouths, IMO. Hingis is #1, and has the ego to go right along with it. Venus and Serena have both been more humble in their quest for glory than their father has, and in comparison to Hingis.
Bonnie Barnes wrote in message
<4066-37D33D0D...@newsd-293.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... never mind all this hingis/williams malarkey and just bring steffi back y
<1634-37D33D52...@newsd-283.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... Tracy Austin talks incessantly about nothing. She rambles on and on and never makes her point. Trying to watch a tennis match without her mouth going would be greatly appreciated. Doesn't any of the other commentators get annoyed? Her and Virginia Wade are the worst. Love Mary Carillo. She knows when to say something constructive and doesn't speak during a crucial point of the game.
I wasn't fond of Mary Carillo during yesterday's Agassi match. What was with all that nonsense about the NBA and Jordan?? She wouldn't shut up about it either, even after J.M. tried to put the ca-bosh on it. She brought it up a 3rd time, trying to explain herself, about a half hour later. I was thinking 'Give it a rest, Mary!'.
> Serena has it right when she talks about Martina's problems stemming from her > lack of a formal education.
problems, what problems ? she has won 5 grand slams - that's 5 more than the williams sisters and their big daddy together have. someone needed to shut the old feller up, and hingis is more qualified for the job than most anyone else (barring graf who's retired, and seles who looks to be going downhill). anyway, all this counts for shit - let's see who wins the real fight.
> Most european kids get at least a State provided > formal education..heck i believe Kournikova put in many hours in the > classroom...Martina spent few hours in classroom getting a formal education!
In article <1dxlyvg.xd740w1hxuj32N@[192.168.1.3]>, s...@noreplay.com (Sof) writes: > Matthias Neeracher <ne...@iis.ee.ethz.ch> wrote: >> The Swiss, on the other hand, *never* use "proper" (formal, stage) German in >> conversation with each other and reserve its use for formal occasions >> (speeches, parliamentary debates). > Hi Matthias, I didn't know you were reading this newsgoup :-)
Heh.
> I just wanted to add that *the Swiss* also use French or Italien in > conversation, and in formal occasions :-)
Yes, but do they say soixante-dix? :-)
My remarks were meant to apply to Swiss-German speakers only, and I apologize if I didn'tmake that distinction sufficiently clear.
Matthias
-- Matthias Neeracher <ne...@iis.ee.ethz.ch> http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~neeri "Thou shalt not answer questionnaires // Or quizzes upon world affairs, Nor with compliance // Take any test. Thou shalt not sit with statisticians nor commit // A social science." -- W.H. Auden, _Under which lyre_
> Don't the Williams Sisters both speak "foot in mouth" as a second language?
Actually, I think Venus is losing her fluency in that tongue. She's grown up a lot in the past year, and has learned the art of making confident statements that don't sound like idle boasts. I'm very glad to see it, since I suspect she will be a very important force in tennis for many years to come.
> Robert B. Waltz wrote in message ... > >Georgiana Gates <ram...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
> >> rugger wrote:
> >> > Serena, who is just as mouthy as Venus and the old man, said Hingis > >said this because of her lack of a formal education. Serena all proud of > >the fact she's learning a foreign language (I think Hingis can already > >speak 4 or 5).
> >> Well, by tennis standards the Williamses have a lot of education - > >> both finished high school, right? How many top women players have any > >> college at all?
> >Well -- as a footnote, the Williams Sisters are home schooled. They have > >completed high school -- but I don't trust a curriculum with Richard > >Williams in charge. :-)
> >So the last top player to complete a *real* high school education > >remains Davenport. There are, of course, players who have gone to > >college -- but it appears that the highest-ranked female players to have > >gone to college seriously are Raymond (#29) and Kremer (#31). (At > >least, I think Raymond went to Stanford. I know Kremer did.)
> >On the other hand, I think Serena's mastery of a second language *is* > >more significant than Hingis's (somewhat incomplete) mastery of four > >(Hingis is fully fluent in the Slovak dialect of Czech and the Swiss > >dialect of German, has fluent but somewhat imperfect English, and > >speaks ungrammatical French). Serena started studying foreign > >languages when she was much older; that makes it MUCH harder.
> >This assumes, of course, that Serena *has* mastered whatever it was > >she was studying. :-)
> >-- > >Robert B. Waltz > >(e-mail address hidden to avoid spam -- you know which text to remove)
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KC wrote: > Don't the Williams Sisters both speak "foot in mouth" as a second language?
Then again, the "foot in mouth" language you mention is Hingis' first language. I find it -almost- amusing that Hingis describes the Williams as "big mouths" (although I may agree with her at times), but she's just as much a big mouth as they are.
> > Don't the Williams Sisters both speak "foot in mouth" as a second language?
> Then again, the "foot in mouth" language you mention is Hingis' first language. I > find it -almost- amusing that Hingis describes the Williams as "big mouths" > (although I may agree with her at times), but she's just as much a big mouth as they > are.
> DJ
------------------
I agree 100%. And let us not forget that Hingis, and the Williams sisters are still just TEENAGERS. Dam, don't we all recall the dumb/stupid/stuff we did when we were teenagers?
>Then again, the "foot in mouth" language you mention is Hingis' first language. I >find it -almost- amusing that Hingis describes the Williams as "big mouths" >(although I may agree with her at times), but she's just as much a big mouth as they >are.
Yeah, but Hingis can back up her mouth most of the time. Besides, she's cute and I like her.
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NOSPAM4myxe...@webtv.net wrote: >>clair...@flash.net (Claire Abraham) wrote: >>Martina stated that Richard had a big mouth. I >>am not confused. >Well the Associated Press articles say otherwise, so do the USA network >commentators who also mentioned the quote. I guess they're all wrong, >and you're right?
Q. Does it motivate you more when you see something in the headlines? Did you hear that Papa Williams predicted an all-Williams final?
MARTINA HINGIS: He always has a big mouth. They always talk a lot. It happened before. It's going to happen again. So I don't really worry about that.
(quote from Hingis, 01 Sep, after Pitkovski match)
