Teaching how to breathe
Pat
mastered the art of breathing and swimming at the same time. One guy will
thrash as hard as he can, holding his breath, until he has to stop at the
2/3 lane length mark and breathe. He will swim an hour this way! A woman I
have seen will swim 4 strokes then throw her head back and stand up and
breathe, and then swim 4 more strokes. I have seen people holding their
breath and then, when they lift their heads to breathe, they first must
exhale. This takes a lot of time, so they usually just stop. And then there
are the ones who just keep their faces out of the water so that they can
breathe easily.
While I was thinking about this today as I swam laps, I was wondering if
anybody has tips on how to teach a child how to breathe while doing the
crawl. The child I am thinking of is a 7 year old who is doing quite well
on the stroke, but has no concept of turning her head to the side to
breathe. How do I help her to learn this?
thanks,
Pat
Steve Freides
> As I swim at the local 24 Hour Fitness, I notice many people who have
> not mastered the art of breathing and swimming at the same time. One
> guy will thrash as hard as he can, holding his breath, until he has
> to stop at the 2/3 lane length mark and breathe. He will swim an
> hour this way! A woman I have seen will swim 4 strokes then throw
> her head back and stand up and breathe, and then swim 4 more strokes.
> I have seen people holding their breath and then, when they lift
> their heads to breathe, they first must exhale. This takes a lot of
> time, so they usually just stop. And then there are the ones who just
> keep their faces out of the water so that they can breathe easily.
>
> While I was thinking about this today as I swam laps, I was wondering
> if anybody has tips on how to teach a child how to breathe while
> doing the crawl.
Many - we teach this in YMCA swimming classes, and that's what I
recommend to everyone who wants to learn how to swim. At least at my Y,
they are in 8-week sessions, so it's low-cost, the groups are small
(limited to 7 students).
I actually don't teach this myself these days - I get them when they are
ready to swim a length of the pool and already breathing on their side.
But the way it's taught is with the teacher supporting them with one
hand and actually turning their head most of the time with the other
hand. The idea is simply to get them into a position that they wouldn't
do themselves based solely on verbal instruction.
-S-
Pat
> Many - we teach this in YMCA swimming classes, and that's what I
> recommend to everyone who wants to learn how to swim. At least at my
> Y, they are in 8-week sessions, so it's low-cost, the groups are small
> (limited to 7 students).
>
> I actually don't teach this myself these days - I get them when they
> are ready to swim a length of the pool and already breathing on their
> side. But the way it's taught is with the teacher supporting them
> with one hand and actually turning their head most of the time with
> the other hand. The idea is simply to get them into a position that
> they wouldn't do themselves based solely on verbal instruction.
>
> -S-
It is interesting to me that these adult swimmers do not know the knack of
breathing while they swim. And many of them have not tried goggles. One
elderly lady will swim the crawl with her eyes closed. She swims diagonally
if the lane lines are taken down.
From your post, I am wondering if the child could be put on a flat kick buoy
so that the instructor could use both hands. IIRC, I learned to breathe
while holding on to the side of the pool and kicking my legs while I
swiveled my head from looking at the pool bottom to looking to one side.
Pat in TX
cardarch
the total immersion way was best for me and cured me from a lifetime
fear of submersion. Float like a log or do the deadman's float and
roll to breath. When you see that your body floats on its own and you
can easily breath when you need to, a great fear is dismissed. Then
add motion. I really worked for me.
Nemo ad Nusquam
[...]
> It is interesting to me that these adult swimmers do not know the knack of
> breathing while they swim. And many of them have not tried goggles.
I learned to swim as an adult at the local city-pool classes. When I
showed up wearing goggles, the instructor admonished me for wearing them
-- I did not start wearing goggles until 10 years later.
--
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Pat
> Pat wrote:
> [...]
>> It is interesting to me that these adult swimmers do not know the
>> knack of breathing while they swim. And many of them have not tried
>> goggles.
>
> I learned to swim as an adult at the local city-pool classes. When I
> showed up wearing goggles, the instructor admonished me for wearing
> them -- I did not start wearing goggles until 10 years later.
I had that problem when my son was 10 years old----in 1983! His instructor
had been the pool boss for 30 years and she wasn't going to let any
newfangled ideas get into HER (city) pool! And, because I insisted that he
wear the goggles, she failed him from his "swimmer" badge. Her excuse was
that "in the breast stroke, he only glided for 2 seconds when the standard
is to glide for 3 seconds."
Nowadays, when I ask an adult why he doesn't have goggles, invariably, he'll
say, "I don't know enough about them to buy some." or "I had goggles once
and they didn't fit."
Pat in TX
Pat
> the total immersion way was best for me and cured me from a lifetime
> fear of submersion. Float like a log or do the deadman's float and
> roll to breath. When you see that your body floats on its own and you
> can easily breath when you need to, a great fear is dismissed. Then
> add motion. I really worked for me.
Thanks for your input. Every time I tell a non-swimmer that they are
carrying around their own internal device to aid in floating--their lungs!
they are always astonished because they had not thought of that themselves.
Pat in TX
Steve Freides
They teach the kids to breath holding onto the side of the pool as well,
of course. But the instructors takes them out into the water one at a
time and helps them turn their heads until they've gotten the hang of it
on their own. In my YMCA, there are different levels, so at the
earliest for 7-12 year olds (called Polliwog?), you find the teachers
doing this for them. Then there is Guppy, and I think to pass that they
must demonstrate that they can breath on the side by themselves, and
then there is Minnow, which I teach, and by that time, they are expected
to be able to swim in deep water and cover the width of the pool via
side breathing. Once they can do that, they graduate to being able to
swim the length of the pool (also Minnow but Minnow Length) with side
breathing.
And then there are three more classes which find them swimming longer
distances without stopping, learning flip turns, breastroke and
butterfly (I teach that level as well - I get to teach them butterfly,
which I enjoy doing), and at that point, they have to be at least 11
years old to make it to the next levels which are run essentially like a
swim team practice but there is no competition and it's open to everyone
without tryouts.
The YMCA has been teaching people to swim forever, and they also have
adult classes, so I just tell people to get in touch with their local Y
if they need to learn how to swim or how to swim better. Ours also has
a Masters Team for adults and age-group competitive teams for kids.
Steve "you'll find me at the Ridgewood, NJ, YMCA teaching swimming every
Wednesday afternoon" Freides
MW Smith
Goggles aren't actually necessary for swimming. They don't even make
it easier. They do prevent burning, red eyes after swimming in a
chlorinated pool, but that doesn't make swimming any easier. We
trained for years without goggles. You can easily see the black line
on the bottom and the cross on the end without goggles. If you can get
goggles to fit a 7 year old, fine, but they aren't necessary.
The way i taught breathing had four steps:
1. Have the children stand on the deck and watch a swimmer going back
and forth. Explain to them what they are seeing and ask them to
remember the head turning motion.
2. In the pool, have them kick lightly at the edge, holding the edge
of the pool, but arms Not fully extended. Kick just enough to keep the
feet on the surface. Face in the water. Breath only by turning the
head, to one side, or to both sides.
3. Have the children stand on the deck. Bend at the waste and simulate
the crawlstroke, arms only. Then add the breathing. Demonstrate this
for them first.
4. finally, the children get in and try it in the water.
This sequence worked for me as an instructor, but some kids had to go
through it two or three times to "get it."
Pat
>
> Goggles aren't actually necessary for swimming. They don't even make
> it easier. They do prevent burning, red eyes after swimming in a
> chlorinated pool, but that doesn't make swimming any easier. We
> trained for years without goggles. You can easily see the black line
> on the bottom and the cross on the end without goggles. If you can get
> goggles to fit a 7 year old, fine, but they aren't necessary.
I agree that goggles aren't necessary, but they do make it more enjoyable
and reduce or eliminate the chlorine burn. They allow people to swim with
their eyes open if the stinging of the chlorine bothers them. And, they
eliminate the poor vision and light halos afterwards, not to mention the
redness.
I find the 7 year old doesn't quite understand how a goggle is supposed to
fit. So, I got her a mask instead. That is easier to put on and adjust and
if a little water gets in the bottom, it doesn't wash over the eyes all the
time.
Your method of teaching a child to swim and breathe brought me 'way back to
my first instruction. That is exactly how it was taught! I can remember that
day as if it were yesterday from your description. I can hardly wait to try
it on her.
thanks,
Pat in TX
PaulLouis
The Total Immersion way also works best me. I could never get my head
to turn far enough to catch any air. Now it's all in the roll. The
roll also keeps your head, shoulders, and hips in alignment.
aquachimp
but has no concept of turning her head to the side to
> breathe.
Personally I don't really "turn" my head, (as this implies to "turn"
separately away from the rest of the body) Like a couple of others I
sorta roll.
>
MW Smith
wrote:
If you only roll and don't turn your head, you have to roll 90 degrees
to get your mouth above the surface. And then since your roll is
symmetrical, you are rolling back through 180 degrees, until your
mouth is above the surface on the other side as well. If you Total
Immersion guys did that at Pat's pool, she would write about you.
"Today I saw a guy rolling from side to side without turning his head.
He looked like a log in a log rolling contest."
Steve Freides
Agreed - my guess is that most people who feel they don't turn their
heads probably do about half what they do at the neck and the other half
by rolling the body.
-S-
Duncan Heenan
news:7mb9a7F...@mid.individual.net...
turbulence and slow you down &/or tir you out quickly. It also means that
the shoulders are going to be strained because they would be pulling at an
unnatural angle.--
Duncan Heenan
Steve Freides
I wouldn't be too quick to say a 180 degree roll can't be done at a high
level of performance. (That's not exactly what you said but I think
you're suggesting that.) The details escape me now but I believe there
are actually quite a few photos of elite swimmers who look like they're
laying on their sides in the water while breathing during front crawl.
If anyone would care to post one, that would be great.
I just don't think most people do it.
-S-
Robert W. McAdams
Sorry, but this simply isn't true! If you don't believe it, try the
following experiment:
- Stand facing a wall.
- While keeping your nose pointed at the wall, rotate your body about 45
degrees to your right around the axis of your spine. If you imagine
that the wall is the bottom of a swimming pool and that the wall and
your body are horizontal rather than vertical, your head and body are
now in the position they should be in when you are recovering your right
arm (without breathing).
- Now, while keeping your head stationary relative to your body (i.e.,
keeping a constant distance between your chin and left shoulder) rotate
your body to your left around the axis of your spine. How far do you
have to rotate your body before your nose is pointing to the side wall
instead of the wall you were originally facing? I think you'll find
that you have to rotate it about 90 degrees - not 180 degrees! That's
about how far you'll have to rotate when you're swimming in order for
your mouth and nose to clear the water so you can breathe.
Bob
MW Smith
Yes, but since I didn't rotate my head some number of degrees, in
addition to the 45 degree shoulder rotation, my mouth is still below
the surface, and I can't breath.
If I am floating face down in the water, and I rotate 45 degrees
around the axis of my spine, my mouth is still below the surface. But
see below.
> - Now, while keeping your head stationary relative to your body (i.e.,
> keeping a constant distance between your chin and left shoulder) rotate
> your body to your left around the axis of your spine. How far do you
> have to rotate your body before your nose is pointing to the side wall
> instead of the wall you were originally facing? I think you'll find
> that you have to rotate it about 90 degrees - not 180 degrees! That's
> about how far you'll have to rotate when you're swimming in order for
> your mouth and nose to clear the water so you can breathe.
I'm not sure what you are saying there, Bob, but it sounds
contradictory to your first paragraph. If I am floating face down in
the water, and I rotate my head only, to the right to breath, I have
to rotate it 90 degrees to the right. If, instead of rotating my head
to the right, I roll my body keeping my head fixed relative to my
shoulders, then I have to rotate my body that same 90 degrees.
That means I have to rotate back 90 degrees to be face down and then
another 90 degrees the other way to keep my stroke symmetrical.
Now, once a swimmer has developed his stroke and stamina to a level
where he can swim fast, then he can take advantage of the surface
effects created by his body moving through the water. He can inhale in
the "trough" created momentarily by the side of his head pushing water
out of the way, so that he is actually breathing partially below the
average surface of the pool. And he can take advantage of the lift he
gets from Larry's "surfing the bow wave" concept, which is real
whether or not it increases his speed. Then the angle he has to turn
his head/shoulders is much less than 90 degrees. At the extreme, the
angle is 0 degrees for water polo players, who swim with their head up
most of the time.
But we aren't talking about swimmers who can take advantage of these
surface effects. we're talking about kids just learning to swim.
Duncan Heenan
"MW Smith" <clippe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f4b13d39-fafc-4d36...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
----------------------------------
I agree with what MWS says as regards pool swimming, where there is minimal
chop on the water, but for open water where the simmer is often having to
cope with waves, the 'bow wave' effect is lost in the broken water, and
turning the head to get clear room for breathing, as well as body rotation,
becomes even more relevant.
--
Duncan Heenan
aquachimp
Yes well, I do like to complete a crawl stroke by turning it into a
backstroke and then returning to crawl, then with a different lead
hand return to back. Most relaxing.
aquachimp
To some degree, yes. I let my lead arm, er, lead my shoulder movement
and my head goes along for the glide.
I prefer a little stretch at this point. Which is why I mentioned
that , I don't _really_ turn my head, and "I sorta roll".
aquachimp
Just remembered:
I do sometimes really turn my head during front crawl, but only when
doing it in reverse.
MW Smith
If you really don't turn your head at all, then your mouth must be
coming above the surface on both sides, right and left. Is that how it
works for you? If not, then your roll is asymmetrical, which is
wrong.
And if your aren't turning your head, then your head is always rolling
back and forth. Your face is never stationary just looking forward and
down. That would make me dizzy.
Steve Freides
I guess we should mention that the thoracic spine (the top part of the
spine) rotates quite nicely. The actual rotation is probably a
combination of neck and t-spine, plus the rest of the body somewhat as
would be evidenced by hip position. While sitting in your chair, turn
your head to the side without allowing your shoulders to move - most
people will not get to 90 degrees. Then allow yourself to let your
shoulders move as well, which is mostly done through rotation of the
t-spine, but still keep your hips facing forward in your chair. You'll
find it's quite easy this way to get well past 90 degrees and many
people can get their shoulders to 180 and probably therefore their neck
to 135-ish.
A lot of the reason folks have shoulder problems is poor t-spine
mobility. The ability to extend and to rotate through the upper back is
very important to shoulder health - the shoulders tend to get too
mobile, and the t-spine too immobile. Fix the t-spine mobility and
you've allowed the shoulders to function properly. (The ability to flex
the t-spine is all too common, witness the hunched posture of many of
us. T-spine extension and rotation is where it's at.)
-S-
aquachimp
Um, not at the same time.
Or maybe I'm not following your meaning.
aquachimp
You'll need to shift forward so as not to be obstructed by the back of
the seat And, assuming there's no other furniture in the way:
Seated, raise both arms, stretch/extend them upwards as far as
comfortable, alongside your ears. Palms forward
1 With a turn from the shoulders,, without displacing the position of
your head from between your arms, 'swing' to, say the left.
Note how far you got.
2 Return to primary position and repeat, but this time, if turning to
the left, whilst ensuring that your head retains its position relative
to your right arm, swing your left arm away.
Note if that made any difference; especially note if it merely gave
the impression of a difference.
Repeat 2 but this time, whilst imagining you are in the water, instead
of keeping you head fixed in position as before, but without what
might be called "turning" it, allow it to lean slightly towards your
right arm and gently tilt your chin up
More comfortable.?
Observe how far you've m
MW Smith
You say you are not turning your head. You are just rolling. I assume
you breath on the right. You roll to the right and your head rolls
with your body. Your mouth comes out of the water and you breath. Now
you roll back the other way, and since you are a Total Immersion
disciple, your roll is symmetrical. Then you roll far enough to breath
on the left side as well. Yes? If no, then your stroke is not
symmetrical and you are a Total Immersion failure. Get thee to a Total
Immersionary!
I think you do turn your head some. If you are a good swimmer. i.e.,
if you can take advantage of the lift you get from swimming reasonably
fast, then you don't have to turn your head much at all. You turn it
more when you roll to the non-breathing side, because as you roll you
keep your head more or less stationary facing down/forward. But you do
let it roll a little to that side.
But the point here is that it is hard to roll a lot, when you are
first learning to swim. Rolling is something you always show to knew
swimmers, because you always show them the best stroke you can show
them, but a kid who can't already swim will sink if he tries to roll,
so I never tried to teach that first to kids. Maybe your experience
with kids is different. Kids usually start swimming flat and develop a
roll as they become more confident and build some stamina.
aquachimp
Never actually did that.
>
> I think you do turn your head some. If you are a good swimmer. i.e.,
> if you can take advantage of the lift you get from swimming reasonably
> fast, then you don't have to turn your head much at all. You turn it
> more when you roll to the non-breathing side, because as you roll you
> keep your head more or less stationary facing down/forward. But you do
> let it roll a little to that side.
>
> But the point here is that it is hard to roll a lot, when you are
> first learning to swim. Rolling is something you always show to knew
> swimmers, because you always show them the best stroke you can show
> them, but a kid who can't already swim will sink if he tries to roll,
> so I never tried to teach that first to kids. Maybe your experience
> with kids is different.
Nor that.
MW Smith
aquachimp
I'll re-phrase;
I've never done a "Total Immersion" course.
MW Smith
wrote:
> I'll re-phrase;
> I've never done a "Total Immersion" course.
Then it's time you did one, because if you aren't turning your head,
and you don't fit the description, then your stroke is out of balance.
aquachimp
Naaaaa.
I went for a dip today. Just me and herself. (€42 to hire the entire
facilities, inc sauna, for a max. of up to 8 people occupancy)
(question came up on a previous thread)
I tried front crawl by keeping my eyes on the times below and found
that I had to turn my head to do that.
What I did to breath without head turning, but not without head
movement, was to lead with shoulders, twist at the hips, till they
were 'vertical' (floor to roof) return, ditto shoulders... it's all a
continuous ~~~~~~ rather than a roll as such.
MW Smith
wrote:
Then if your stroke is symmetrical, you can breath on both sides,
i.e., your mouth is above the surface on both the right and the left,
yes?
If not, there are two choices: You are turning your head, or your
stroke is not symmetrical.
Robert W. McAdams
> On Nov 17, 1:35 am, "Robert W. McAdams" <r...@fambright.com> wrote:
>>- Now, while keeping your head stationary relative to your body (i.e.,
>>keeping a constant distance between your chin and left shoulder) rotate
>>your body to your left around the axis of your spine. How far do you
>>have to rotate your body before your nose is pointing to the side wall
>>instead of the wall you were originally facing? I think you'll find
>>that you have to rotate it about 90 degrees - not 180 degrees! That's
>>about how far you'll have to rotate when you're swimming in order for
>>your mouth and nose to clear the water so you can breathe.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you are saying there, Bob, but it sounds
> contradictory to your first paragraph. If I am floating face down in
> the water, and I rotate my head only, to the right to breath, I have
> to rotate it 90 degrees to the right. If, instead of rotating my head
> to the right, I roll my body keeping my head fixed relative to my
> shoulders, then I have to rotate my body that same 90 degrees.
>
> That means I have to rotate back 90 degrees to be face down and then
> another 90 degrees the other way to keep my stroke symmetrical.
I get the impression that when you say "floating face down" you really
mean "floating on your stomach" or "floating belly button down." But
you should rarely be in that position when you're swimming freestyle.
If you are, you're going to lose the added power you can get from the
rotation of your body.
Your body should be rotating from about 45 degrees in one direction to
about 45 degrees in the other direction. And that means that when your
body is rotating from one side to the other side, it will be rotating a
total of 90 degrees, which means that if your nose is pointed at the
bottom of the pool when you start the rotation and you let your head
rotate with your body, your nose will be pointing at the side wall when
you finish the rotation. Of course, if it is pointing directly toward
the side wall, your mouth and nose will still be slightly below the
surface. But that just means turning your head slightly, or rotating
slightly more than 45 degrees from flat on your stomach.
> Now, once a swimmer has developed his stroke and stamina to a level
> where he can swim fast, then he can take advantage of the surface
> effects created by his body moving through the water. He can inhale in
> the "trough" created momentarily by the side of his head pushing water
> out of the way, so that he is actually breathing partially below the
> average surface of the pool.
True. And this is what allows elite swimmers to actually keep their
core body rotation to 45 degrees in each direction without having to
turn their heads to breathe. Swimmers who aren't that good will have to
rotate slightly more, but the time they lose doing this won't be
important precisely because they aren't swimming that fast.
> But we aren't talking about swimmers who can take advantage of these
> surface effects. we're talking about kids just learning to swim.
And they are the ones who most need to be taught the proper way to swim!
I see far too many swimmers who were taught to swim incorrectly, and
who are now faced with the prospect of having to do countless hours of
drilling and swimming to undo their bad habits because they've spent
hundreds of hours practicing those bad habits.
Bob
MW Smith
> MW Smith wrote:
> I get the impression that when you say "floating face down" you really
> mean "floating on your stomach" or "floating belly button down." But
> you should rarely be in that position when you're swimming freestyle.
> If you are, you're going to lose the added power you can get from the
> rotation of your body.
It was a thought experiment, Bob, meant only to illustrate the point.
> Your body should be rotating from about 45 degrees in one direction to
> about 45 degrees in the other direction. And that means that when your
> body is rotating from one side to the other side, it will be rotating a
> total of 90 degrees, which means that if your nose is pointed at the
> bottom of the pool when you start the rotation and you let your head
> rotate with your body, your nose will be pointing at the side wall when
> you finish the rotation.
From the horizontal position, if I rotate my body 45 degrees to either
side, my nose rotates through the same 45 degrees, which means it is
not pointing at the wall, which would require a 90 degree rotation.
After a 45 degree rotation, my nose is pointing 45 degrees from
vertical and 45 degrees from horizontal. To be pointing AT the wall, I
must turn my head an additional 45 degrees, or rotate my body an
additional 45 degrees.
If you rotate your body 45 degrees to one side and your nose is
pointing at the wall, then you are rotating your head an additional 45
degrees.
> And they are the ones who most need to be taught the proper way to swim!
> I see far too many swimmers who were taught to swim incorrectly, and
> who are now faced with the prospect of having to do countless hours of
> drilling and swimming to undo their bad habits because they've spent
> hundreds of hours practicing those bad habits.
I've never seen anyone who was taught to swim incorrectly, and I've
been around a lot of swimmers. My point about teaching breathing to
kids is simply that almost all kids I've seen first learning to swim,
first swim flat with little or no body roll, and it has been my
experience that trying to get them to roll before they can swim
confidently and with good forward motion is counterproductive, because
when trying to roll they sink and then can't breath.
Confident forward motion first, then add the roll. I suppose the same
would apply to adults, but adults have a lot more fat, making rolling
without sinking more likely.
aquachimp
yep. But still requires a movement of my head, (which I noticed was
against the force of the water), but which does not qualify as a
"turn"
MW Smith
That would make me dizzy. I minimize the motion of my head, where you
maximize it.
aquachimp
Ordinarily I wouldn't have noticed it, but I was taking notes at the
time; I noticed 2 things
1) I had to resist the the force of the water form pushing my head
away from lead shoulder
2) and so detected the pressure to prevent me from gently tipping my
chin upwards as this movement was in direct opposition to it
MW Smith
You lost me. There would be a water pushing your head away from your
lead shoulder if you were fishtailing. Otherwise your head would be
pointing straight ahead.
Why are you trying to tip your chin upward? My head stays in a natural
position, but when I roll to my breathing side, I also turn my head a
bit toward that side. When I roll to the non-breathing side (which I
don't do far enough) I don't turn my head to that side and I don't
even let it roll with my body as my body rolls to that side. As I
said, that would make me dizzy. In a work out, especially, where I am
swimming beside oncoming traffic, I need to have my head stable for a
moment, so I can see the situation in front of me.