No Pirlo = No Kaka
Mark V.
last season and this and have come to this conclusion. Namely, that
Kaka is an over rated player who doesn't amount to his hype without
Pirlo playing behind him. I mean, have you ever noticed how Kaka
doesn't really "show up" when the Brazil nationals play? That's
because there is no Pirlo to set him up, to get the midfield maching
purring, to pull Kaka's marionette strings to to speak. Pirlo of
course as we all saw during Italy's spectacular Cup victory last year
makes anyone better around him whether it is Kaka or Totti, etc.
In fact I challenge any of you to name a better midfielder in the
world than Pirlo.
Diabolik
"Mark V." <markva...@religious.com> wrote in message
news:1190298435....@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Agreed that Pirlo is the best midfielder, as any Milan fan would know.
He has superb vision and precise passing like no other.
Infact I think he deserves the Pallone d'oro just as much as Kaka', for what
he did with Milan and the National team.
But to suggest Kaka' is overrated is stretching it.
An over rated player doesn't score 10 gols in the CL.
wany...@gmail.com
Look at the differences when Hamman & Mascherano were on the pitch,
and when they weren't.
Have other teams tried man-marking him with top quality DMs, and with
what results?
MH
Interesting observation. I have another one (also a bit exaggerated like
yours):
No Gattuso = no Pirlo.
The evidence, M'lud, is what happens when the two of them are not
playing together. Eg. When Gattuso went off injured vs. Man Utd at Old
Trafford, suddenly it was one way traffic and united won. I'd have to
sit down and look through all the records of Italy games and Milan games
when Pirlo played without gattuso, but my gut impression (possibly
completely erroneous) is that both Italy and Milan don't do that well
when Pirlo plays without Gattuso.
Pirlo's passing and vision are great, but (like much of the Milan team),
he does tend to tire in the last 30 minutes, and if Gattuso is not
there, this is exacerbated.
Benny
> Subject : markva...@religious.com
> I have been involved in extensive analysis of the play of AC Milan for
> last season and this and have come to this conclusion. Namely, that
> Kaka is an over rated player who doesn't amount to his hype without
> Pirlo playing behind him. I mean, have you ever noticed how Kaka
> doesn't really "show up" when the Brazil nationals play? That's
> because there is no Pirlo to set him up, to get the midfield maching
> purring, to pull Kaka's marionette strings to to speak. Pirlo of
> course as we all saw during Italy's spectacular Cup victory last year
> makes anyone better around him whether it is Kaka or Totti, etc.
What do you mean involved? Anyway that's extraordinarily harsh. Pirlo and
Kaka's play for Milan is largely independent of each other. Kaka' initiates
most of the counter attacks and links with Seedorf while Pirlo does his damage
from deep which is why he is almost impossible to pick up. The key player in
the midfield for Milan and Italy is actually Gattuso. Kaka', Seedorf and Pirlo
especially couldn't perform without him.
http://soccer-europe.com
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Enzo
In football, every part of the structure must work. It makes no
sense to say that a forward cannot score goals without the
support of his midfield.
Put 4 amateurs in Milan's backline, and see what Gattuso and Pirlo
can do. My guess - nothing.
Diabolik
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com> wrote in message
news:fixIi.32345$ka7....@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Gattuso??? LOL!
Ambrosini, or many other defensive midfielder can replace Gattuso, but
no-one can replace Pirlo.
Diabolik
"MH" <nos...@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:46F29368...@ucalgary.ca...
>
>
> Mark V. wrote:
> > I have been involved in extensive analysis of the play of AC Milan for
> > last season and this and have come to this conclusion. Namely, that
> > Kaka is an over rated player who doesn't amount to his hype without
> > Pirlo playing behind him. I mean, have you ever noticed how Kaka
> > doesn't really "show up" when the Brazil nationals play? That's
> > because there is no Pirlo to set him up, to get the midfield maching
> > purring, to pull Kaka's marionette strings to to speak. Pirlo of
> > course as we all saw during Italy's spectacular Cup victory last year
> > makes anyone better around him whether it is Kaka or Totti, etc.
> >
> > In fact I challenge any of you to name a better midfielder in the
> > world than Pirlo.
> >
> Interesting observation. I have another one (also a bit exaggerated like
> yours):
>
> No Gattuso = no Pirlo.
>
> The evidence, M'lud, is what happens when the two of them are not
> playing together. Eg. When Gattuso went off injured vs. Man Utd at Old
> Trafford, suddenly it was one way traffic and united won. I'd have to
> sit down and look through all the records of Italy games and Milan games
> when Pirlo played without gattuso, but my gut impression (possibly
> completely erroneous) is that both Italy and Milan don't do that well
> when Pirlo plays without Gattuso.
Ambrosini, or many other defensive midfielder can replace Gattuso, but
no-one can replace Pirlo.
Ambrosini almost has the same defensive qualities as Gattuso, execept he can
also pass the ball, has vision and makes great runs forward and score gols.
MH
This is possibly true in theory. However, the results I did look up
seemed to confirm my impression (which I admit could still be very
wrong). Eg. When Hungary beat Italy 3-1 in a friendly recently, Pirlo
was playing but not Gattuso. I'd be interested in what other objective
observers of Serie A thought.
Diabolik
That was only a friendly so I wouldn't count it.
Ambrosini was injured and left out of the squad for Milan for years, and
therefore the national team.
Ambrosini is a very valid replacement for Gattuso. IMO he's better than
Gattuso because more versatile, and he's the Milan captain.
If you saw the last Italy game against the Ukraine, you would have seen
Ambrosini in action in the second gol, where he won the ball in midfield and
provided a great pass for DiNatale to score.
Bob
> This is possibly true in theory. However, the results I did look up
> seemed to confirm my impression (which I admit could still be very
> wrong). Eg. When Hungary beat Italy 3-1 in a friendly recently, Pirlo
> was playing but not Gattuso. I'd be interested in what other
> objective observers of Serie A thought.
FWIW during an interview prior to the Italy-France match, Malouda identified
Gattuso as the most critical cog in the italian squad.
MH
He is not alone in thinking that, as far as I can tell. Sort of like
France with Deschamps - on paper they had and have players who should be
more than adequate replacements (Vieira, Makelele, Dacourt, more
recently Toulalan) but since he retired they have often struggled to win
games they should have won easily, and have won no trophies.
>
>
Benny
> From : nos...@ucalgary.ca
> This is possibly true in theory. However, the results I did look up seemed
to confirm
> my impression (which I admit could still be very wrong). Eg. When Hungary
beat Italy > 3-1 in a friendly recently, Pirlo was playing but not Gattuso.
I'd be interested in what > other objective observers of Serie A thought.
Pirlo and Gattuso became Italy's central midfield pairing under Lippi and
given Pirlo only has 36 caps to date chances are they haven't played a lot of
games together at International level. Gattuso has 51 caps but didn't
establish himself in the starting XI until after Euro 2004. Although Gattuso
didn't play against the Ukraine I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say ANY
DM could replace him, Ambrosini did in that match and made the winning goal.
milivella
News seem to support MH and Benny: Milan-Parma 1-1. Milan midfield:
Brocchi (Emerson), Pirlo, Ambrosini, Kaka, Seedorf (i.e. everyone but
Gattuso).
milivella
Benny
> News seem to support MH and Benny: Milan-Parma 1-1. Milan midfield:
> Brocchi (Emerson), Pirlo, Ambrosini, Kaka, Seedorf (i.e. everyone but
> Gattuso).
> milivella
Milan's problems in the league last season and the start of this season go
beyond whether Gattuso does and doesn't play. I'll save them for Sunday's
match reports.
Diabolik
"milivella" <mili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190499770.3...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
What about when Milan drew against Siena and Fiorentina before that, when
Gattuso was playing?
Does that support MH and Benny argument?
milivella
> What about when Milan drew against Siena and Fiorentina before that, when
> Gattuso was playing?
You're right. I was only highlighting the coincidence of this thread
about Gattuso with Milan's worst result of the season so far.
milivella
Diabolik
Eh?????? They won a Euro cup and made the worldcup final, what more can
they achieve except winning it?
MH
Deschamps was still playing when they won Euro 2000. And still Captain.
Pay attention.
and made the worldcup final, what more can
> they achieve except winning it?
They blew WC 2002 completely in spite of having a very strong team.
They also under-performed at Euro 2004. They barely qualified for
WC 2006, and played poorly in the first round. Yes, they did play much
better in the elimination phase, but that was a couple of good games
where some players finally dragged themselves up to former levels.
Overall, since Deschamps retired, France have not done as well as the
amount of talent at their disposal would warrant.
>
>
Diabolik
>
>
> Diabolik wrote:
>> "MH" <nos...@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
>> news:46F3EE09...@ucalgary.ca...
>>
>>>
>>>Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>>MH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>This is possibly true in theory. However, the results I did look up
>>>>>seemed to confirm my impression (which I admit could still be very
>>>>>wrong). Eg. When Hungary beat Italy 3-1 in a friendly recently, Pirlo
>>>>>was playing but not Gattuso. I'd be interested in what other
>>>>>objective observers of Serie A thought.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>FWIW during an interview prior to the Italy-France match, Malouda
>>>>identified
>>>>Gattuso as the most critical cog in the italian squad.
>>>
>>>He is not alone in thinking that, as far as I can tell. Sort of like
>>>France with Deschamps - on paper they had and have players who should be
>>>more than adequate replacements (Vieira, Makelele, Dacourt, more recently
>>>Toulalan) but since he retired they have often struggled to win games
>>>they should have won easily, and have won no trophies.
>>
>>
>> Eh?????? They won a Euro cup
>
> Deschamps was still playing when they won Euro 2000. And still Captain.
> Pay attention.
Sorry.
> and made the worldcup final, what more can
>> they achieve except winning it?
>
> They blew WC 2002 completely in spite of having a very strong team.
ok.
> They also under-performed at Euro 2004. They barely qualified for
> WC 2006, and played poorly in the first round. Yes, they did play much
> better in the elimination phase, but that was a couple of good games where
> some players finally dragged themselves up to former levels.
They still made the final of WC2006, which is a huge achievement, so I don't
think they're underperforming just because Deschamps is missing.
> Overall, since Deschamps retired, France have not done as well as the
> amount of talent at their disposal would warrant.
I think France play better now than when Deschamps was around.
Gabbage
What you say is true, but I'm not convinced that in this case
correlation implies causation. In 2002, they probably missed Zidane
more than Deschamps - it was their failure to score a single goal that
cost them, remember.
Benny
> What you say is true, but I'm not convinced that in this case
> correlation implies causation. In 2002, they probably missed Zidane
> more than Deschamps - it was their failure to score a single goal that
> cost them, remember.
I've always thought Deschamps was over-rated. Petit had a much more impressive
World Cup in 1998 and at Euro 2000 Vieira was the stand-out DM. Deschamps only
quality is that he fouled a lot and got away with it, like Emerson.
MH
Benny wrote:
> > Subject : No Pirlo = No Kaka
> > From : gab...@gmail.com
>
> > What you say is true, but I'm not convinced that in this case
> > correlation implies causation. In 2002, they probably missed Zidane
> > more than Deschamps - it was their failure to score a single goal that
> > cost them, remember.
yes, but also a lack of leadership. They created PLENTY of chances
without Zidane, and even when down to 10 men vs. Uruguay. It is possible
that a real leader would have calmed them down, got them to avoid panic,
and actually finish a few chances.
Zidane was never a great leader. Witness the final last year.
>
> I've always thought Deschamps was over-rated. Petit had a much more
> impressive World Cup in 1998 and at Euro 2000 Vieira was the stand-out
> DM. Deschamps only quality is that he fouled a lot and got away with it,
> like Emerson.
>
From watching him play I would agree -- but one can't argue with the
fact that the guy was a winner. And obviously from his success on and
off the pitch, he really was a leader.
Diabolik
Agreed, the only great factor about Deschamps was that he was a leader, or
he would be an ordinary player like the rest.
milivella
> France with Deschamps
The stats (not that meaningful, but good for Deschamps) are:
France 1989-2000 (2 points per win):
- with Deschamps (103 matches): 77.18 of the points, 2.00 goals for
- 0.79 against
- without Deschamps (22 matches): 68.18 of the points, 0.95 goals for
- 0.50 against
To have a benchmark, see:
http://groups.google.it/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_thread/thread/892cadc83aa97258/
milivella
milivella
http://www.footballdatabase.eu
it's possible to easily (and freely!) have the data of all the players
of a team: how many matches each of them played, how many points the
team won in those matches. I picked AC Milan 2006-07 in Serie A (1.32
Points per Match in 38 Matches):
PpM Player M
1.57 Ronaldo 14
1.53 Ambrosini 19
1.50 Kalac 10
1.50 Oddo 10
1.44 Bonera 25
1.41 Simic 22
1.40 Favalli 15
1.39 Jankulovski 33
1.38 Brocchi 29
1.35 Kaka 31
1.35 Pirlo 34
1.34 Seedorf 32
1.33 Storari 3
1.33 Gattuso 30
1.33 Gilardino 30
1.31 Oliveira 26
1.28 Kaladze 18
1.25 Cafu 24
1.24 Dida 25
1.17 Serginho 6
1.14 Nesta 14
1.10 Inzaghi 20
1.06 Maldini 18
1.00 Costacurta 3
1.00 Borriello 9
0.94 Gourcuff 31
0.67 Grimi 3
Ok, the data depend on many factors, mainly who were the opponents and
how many minutes did a player play in the match. See also
http://groups.google.it/group/rec.sport.soccer/browse_thread/thread/892cadc83aa97258/
But it's possible to say that:
- According to these data, the whole Kaka (1.35) - Pirlo (1.35) -
Gattuso (1.33) debate is not founded.
- If we pick only the players that played at least half of the
matches, the best is Ambrosini (1.53), the worst Gourcuff (0.94).
Among the players with 75% of the appearances, Gourcuff is still the
worst, while Jankulovski (1.39) is the best.
I'd like to compute the data for the previous seasons, to see if they
are consistent (e.g. every season Ambrosini in the top positions,
Inzaghi among the worst players). If any of you wants to know the data
of a team (only European ones, unfortunately), I will compute them.
Bye
milivella
milivella
Excuse me, monsieur Gourcuff: you played 21 matches, so Milan with you
on the field won 1.38 points per match (2 points for the win, I
haven't said it).
milivella
milivella
that player minus points without him (no more only players with few
appearances at the top and the bottom of the table):
Jankulovski 0.59
Ambrosini 0.42
Ronaldo 0.40
Bonera 0.36
Pirlo 0.35
Brocchi 0.27
Kalac 0.25
Oddo 0.25
Simic 0.22
Kaka 0.21
Seedorf 0.18
Gourcuff 0.15
Favalli 0.14
Gattuso 0.08
Gilardino 0.08
Storari 0.02
Oliveira -0.03
Kaladze -0.07
Serginho -0.18
Cafu -0.18
Dida -0.22
Nesta -0.27
Costacurta -0.34
Borriello -0.41
Inzaghi -0.46
Maldini -0.49
Grimi -0.70
milivella
milivella
2005-06, 2006-07); the statistical basis is still not sufficient (e.g.
Milan played only 12 matches without Kaka). There are 14 players
common to these seasons: Ambrosini, Cafu, Costacurta, Dida, Gattuso,
Inzaghi, Kaka, Kaladze, Maldini, Nesta, Pirlo, Seedorf, Serginho,
Simic. Of these, two are over the team average (and so have a positive
difference with-without) every season (and so also considering the sum
of the 3 seasons): Kaka and Seedorf. Three players are below the team
average every season: Inzaghi, Cafu and Dida.
milivella