Overreaction to Henry Handball
Benny
decision go against them away to a big team. Happens all the time and
there were several occasions in which the ref could have given the
French penalties for handball beside Ireland are a shite side. We
wouldn't be having this discussion if Duff or Keane took their chances
or if France didn't have a complete imbecile as coach.
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> People are reacting as if it's the first time minnows have had a
> decision go against them away to a big team. Happens all the time and
> there were several occasions in which the ref could have given the
> French penalties for handball beside Ireland are a shite side.
Let's face it, so are the French (at least this outfit).
Bob
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com> wrote in message
news:he4507$sic$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> People are reacting as if it's the first time minnows have had a
> decision go against them away to a big team. Happens all the time and
> there were several occasions in which the ref could have given the
> French penalties for handball beside Ireland are a shite side. We
> wouldn't be having this discussion if Duff or Keane took their chances
> or if France didn't have a complete imbecile as coach.
It's not so much an over-reaction, as an hypocritical one. Ireland's defense
committed a significant number of unsanctionned and deliberate fouls on the
french offense on aerial plays. In particular, see O'Shea deliberate pushing
with both hands on Squillaci's back in the Irish box at minute 19:57. That
is blatant cheating as well yet we don't hear a pip about how the Irish were
able to dominate aerial play in their half also because of lax ref'ing.
Peremptory claims that Anelka dived to dismiss the possibility that the
result may have been the same irrespective of Henry's handball also don't
sit too well with the video evidence since there seemed to be contact on
Anelka's ankle (please no bs about how he started falling before contact). I
am not mentionning these inconvenient facts to excuse Henry (the handball
was disgraceful and he should be sanctionned if all other cheaters were
sanctionned as well) or to justify the result but to point out that as long
as players are allowed to commit serial professional fouls, it'll be
impossible to stamp out cheating. I find both the cheating and the hypocrisy
pretty disgusting but I have felt that way for a long time.
Real Mardin
desperately rotten luck for Ireland, and why oh why do these decisions
always seem to go against the "smaller" teams, BUT you have to say the
Irish reaction has been completely over the top.
They've actually written to FIFA and the French FA demanding a re-
match! Sorry, is this World Cup qualifying or Monday Night Raw??
Although apparently there's a precedent involving Uzbekistan a few
years ago, so maybe from a Sports Arbitration point if view they have
half a case?
It's wrong to blame the ref - if anyone should have seen the incident,
it was the linesman. But then we're all human.
Wrong too, is the demonisation of Henry. Did he really do anything
worse than the scores of players who'll throw themselves down in the
box for a penalty "appeal" this weekend? Unlike those players, Henry
actually had the honesty to admit he handled the ball.
I ask you, if Keane or Duff had handled the ball en route to setting
up a team mate to equalise, what would Irish fans expect? For the men
in green to demand the goal be chalked off? Would they be demanding a
re-match then?
Unlucky Ireland, desperately unlucky. But learn to take it with
dignity.
RM
Bob
> Unlucky Ireland, desperately unlucky. But learn to take it with
> dignity.
The alternative is to not take it, with dignity, i.e. Ireland can campaign
for football authorities to systematically go after *all* cheaters.
Alan
He didn't have a choice. That clip has been played on every major news
channel dozens of times already. It's perfectly obvious to all that he
handled the ball at least once deliberately in the run up to that
goal. The first time could possibly be an accident, but the second
time where he extended his hand and pushed the ball back into play
couldn't possibly be an accident.
Bruce D. Scott
[...]
I agree the wrong guy to penalise is the referee. He perhaps missed
it. But there are the borderline cases everyone is making excuses for
and then there are the completely over the top things such as this that
only happen in such a blatant way at such a level every few years.
I can tell you the Portuguese reaction as well. They lost to France by
suffering a penalty on a handball that was in fact, in contrast to this
case, a borderline one. Of course it is France and it is a glamour
boy. Not Abel Xavier. No, certainly he wouldn't get away with such a
thing.
Then there is the Italian reaction: can you imagine the outcry if this
were Italy that did this?
There may well be too many blatant handballs. I certainly think it is
more often than 10 or 20 years ago, despite the existence of the HOG in
1986. But the reason there are so many now is that the penalties for it
are way too light.
I'm actually in favour of repeating the match. It has been the case in
the Bundesliga more than once and it is the right decision.
At the very least there should be the possibility of catching this stuff
(and in this case it was an automatic no-brainer), but then having the
guts to penalise it hard enough, and more importantly certainly enough,
that the activity stops.
In this case, however, they really should consider banning Henry out of
the World Cup. Let him get his paycheck for his club. But not for the
big one where he country shouldn't be there at all.
--
ciao,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
Alkamista
> "Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com> wrote in message
>
> news:he4507$sic$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > People are reacting as if it's the first time minnows have had a
> > decision go against them away to a big team. Happens all the time and
> > there were several occasions in which the ref could have given the
> > French penalties for handball beside Ireland are a shite side. We
> > wouldn't be having this discussion if Duff or Keane took their chances
> > or if France didn't have a complete imbecile as coach.
>
> It's not so much an over-reaction, as an hypocritical one. Ireland's defense
> committed a significant number of unsanctionned and deliberate fouls on the
> french offense on aerial plays.
You were *obsessed* with the Malouda WC2006 Final incident for a good
2 years after the event. No offense intended, but the one practicing
hypocrisy here might be you.
Bob
You are clueless (or a troll) and you don't even provide a logic for your
statements. I was answering people who were smearing Malouda and denying
the obvious so they could pretend that Italy winning the cup was
inconstestable. I was also suspicious that systematic fouling occured and
would have like a review.
As to the Henry situation you'll have to explain how I 'might be'
hypocritical because I don't get it.
Alkamista
>
> - Show quoted text -
You were hung up on the the Malouda incident for a long time. Now you
are criticising people for being hung up on the Henry incident.
Bob
Italian trolls were 'catapulting the propaganda' for a long time about
Malouda and I was debunking it by showing that it was a blatant foul by
Materazzi in case you weren't paying attention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGAJYQ_aBx0
Now you
> are criticising people for being hung up on the Henry incident.
You are comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand, people here were
denying that Materazzi fouled Malouda, including PaulC, Diabolik, perhaps
you too, .... People who are now joining the fray (when not initiating it)
to make an example of Henry. On the other hand, nobody here is denying that
Henry handballed, and in my case I also added that it was disgraceful. At
the time of the Materazzi incident I said I was for systematic review of
foul play after games, and I said today that the Irish should not have to
take it as long as they argued for systematic sanctions of cheaters, etc ...
How am I being a hypocrite?
SHUSSBAR
Another H.o. almost God : Vata,
Semi Final Former Champions League 89/90
BENFICA - O. MARSEILLE.
Marseille won 2-1 at home. We are in Lisbonne, 7 minutes left Benfica
is out of the CL finals when....
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6drsd_la-main-de-vata-benfica-vs-marseill_sport
Benfica, a future for Henry?
Bruce D. Scott
: Good, it will give Benzema a chance :-)
haha you might be right there :-)
Your main surprise for me in these matches was Anelka. I was
particularly shocked by his unselfishness in the first match *gg*
SHUSSBAR
Considering what he was told to do with the Domenech system, I think
he had 2 good games.
Karamako
> People are reacting as if it's the first time minnows have had a
> decision go against them away to a big team. Happens all the time and
> there were several occasions in which the ref could have given the
> French penalties for handball beside Ireland are a shite side. We
> wouldn't be having this discussion if Duff or Keane took their chances
> or if France didn't have a complete imbecile as coach.
Right, + :
1. At this moment of the match, around 100th mn (for the first time in the
match), the French were slightly increasing the pressure and the Irish
seemed a bit tired. Govou, Anelka had a few occasions.
Eveybody seems to forget but if the goal had been disallowed, Ireland wasn't
qualified for anything but only for penalty kicks ! At 1-0, they weren't
winning the head to head match and nothing indicates they would have win.
2. It wasn't a "golden goal", they still had time to score one goal. At 2-1
Ireland would have been qualified.
Alkamista
> Alkamista wrote:
>
> > are criticising people for being hung up on the Henry incident.
>
> You are comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand, people here were
> denying that Materazzi fouled Malouda, including PaulC, Diabolik, perhaps
> you too, ....
No, I had zero interest in that incident, I was just sick of the
80,000 posts on that subject, exactly 50% of which were made by you.
> People who are now joining the fray (when not initiating it)
> to make an example of Henry. On the other hand, nobody here is denying that
> Henry handballed, and in my case I also added that it was disgraceful. At
> the time of the Materazzi incident I said I was for systematic review of
> foul play after games, and I said today that the Irish should not have to
> take it as long as they argued for systematic sanctions of cheaters, etc ...
> How am I being a hypocrite?
Put things in perspective. We have one of the biggest names in the
game, perpetrating one of the most high-profile and blatant injustices
in recent memory, in the biggest game of the year for the two teams
involved, and you are saying that the neutrals who are crying foul are
hypocrites because they didnt express the same outrage at some shoving
and physical Irish play in the air? Come on man, get real. You just
dont like it because a Frenchman is the target of criticism here, and
very predictably so.
Bob
> On Nov 19, 5:25 pm, "Bob" <B...@Bob.com> wrote:
>> Alkamista wrote:
>>
>>> are criticising people for being hung up on the Henry incident.
>>
>> You are comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand, people here
>> were denying that Materazzi fouled Malouda, including PaulC,
>> Diabolik, perhaps you too, ....
>
> No, I had zero interest in that incident, I was just sick of the
> 80,000 posts on that subject, exactly 50% of which were made by you.
spare me your mischaracterization of the stream of trolls that came through
rss on that issue.
>
>> People who are now joining the fray (when not initiating it)
>> to make an example of Henry. On the other hand, nobody here is
>> denying that Henry handballed, and in my case I also added that it
>> was disgraceful. At the time of the Materazzi incident I said I was
>> for systematic review of foul play after games, and I said today
>> that the Irish should not have to take it as long as they argued for
>> systematic sanctions of cheaters, etc ... How am I being a hypocrite?
>
> Put things in perspective. We have one of the biggest names in the
> game, perpetrating one of the most high-profile and blatant injustices
> in recent memory, in the biggest game of the year for the two teams
> involved,
... lots of hyperbola in a row, I wonder what comes next ;)
and you are saying that the neutrals who are crying foul are
> hypocrites because they didnt express the same outrage at some shoving
> and physical Irish play in the air?
yes, I have been saying for years that cumulative niggling fouls can be as
important as single big ones. Shoving a player while they take a header
isn't just "physical play" but it is cheating just as surely as handling the
ball
Come on man, get real. You just
> dont like it because a Frenchman is the target of criticism here, and
> very predictably so.
Right, change the topic when you are uncapable of substantiating your
initial claim of my being a hypocrite.
Futbolmetrix
news:he4gat$oio$3...@gwdu112.gwdg.de...
> In this case, however, they really should consider banning Henry out of
> the World Cup. Let him get his paycheck for his club. But not for the
> big one where he country shouldn't be there at all.
I disagree. Henry's handball was deliberate and certainly sanctionable, but
it was also instinctive. The ball was next to his hand and the only way that
he could control it was nudge it with his hand again.
In fact, the person to blame was the ref, not because he missed it (he
doesn't have the benefit of 50 video cameras from every possible angle), but
because he didn't have the guts to go up to Henry and simply ask him to fess
up. I'm actually naive anough to believe that if he had done so, Henry would
have admitted his handball.
The threat of a sanction would not stop players from handling the ball in
certain situations, but it would encourage them to fess up if the ref missed
their infraction.
D
MH
You are wrong, he had two excellent games.
Sheridan Elliot
but the reaction has been ridiculous. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has
waded in, saying letting the result stand sends a message that cheating
pays. This after his government introduced a bill to allow bankers to
continue to profiteer and plunder at public expense.
It just proves how little most fans of the national team, who only ever see
football on TV, know about the game. The referee's decision is final, end
of. If he didn't see it, he didn't see it. It has always been thus. If it
happened to England, people here would be laughing and calling them
crybabies. In fact, they were in '86.
I see Martin O'Neill is going to sit down with Richard Dunne to see if he's
in the right frame of mind to play on Saturday. Jesus Christ. Grow a fucking
pair FFS.
varois83
> match), the French were slightly increasing the pressure and the Irish
> seemed a bit tired. Govou, Anelka had a few occasions.
> Eveybody seems to forget but if the goal had been disallowed, Ireland wasn't
> qualified for anything but only for penalty kicks ! At 1-0, they weren't
> winning the head to head match and nothing indicates they would have win.
Thank-you, I thought I was the only one noticing that. Ireland wasn't
robbed of a world cup spot, they were robbed of a chance to win during
the last 15 mn of OT or penalty. They were not qualified at all as it
would still have been 1--1 in aggragate.
Patrick
varois83
wrote:
If it
> happened to England, people here would be laughing and calling them
> crybabies. In fact, they were in '86.
It's nice to see some truth in all that garbage. I am French and yes
"Ireland got robbed", but come on people you are about to declare war
to France.
I have seen my teams cheated so often, and it frustrated me so much
(Mostly by Italian sides in the 80's in European cups but a famous
greman one in the WC), try to google Schumacher the German keeper who
in 1982 destroyed French player Battiston's jaw. A red card for the
German keeper and a penalty kick were in order but nothing happened
and we got eliminated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3byTNRoxujo
I can't believe the Irish prime minister put the French president
Sarkozy on the spot. That Arsene Wenger the Arsenal French coach had
to come in front of the Microphone and apologize to avoid backlash.
Ireland, I am French and I am telling you, you got fucked of a chance
of making the WC (We were tied 1-1 at the time overall, not 100% sure
you would have qualified.) and it sucks but it's the way it goes.
The only way to fix this is to have video replay in soccer, not to
have the match replayed which has never happened beside for a lousy
Bahrain game.
Let's be honest Irish fans (Please don't be like the cheating
Italians), if it were you that had scored with a handball, do you
think your prime minister would have asked for a replay with France?
Would have Robbie Keane asked for a replay or rushed to the ref to
tell him "Disallow the goal I touched it with my hand"?
We have good players but a lousy coach (Even though I respect him as a
French patriot), I can't believe how bad we were especially in the
first half. I would have hopped a straight forward 2-0 and Ireland
goes home, but unfortunately it wasn't.
Bye
Patrick
FF
> try to google Schumacher the German keeper who
> in 1982 destroyed French player Battiston's jaw. A red card for the
> German keeper and a penalty kick were in order but nothing happened
> and we got eliminated.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3byTNRoxujo
Thanks for the link.
In all fairness, a red card would have been in order but not a
penalty. Battiston had already lost that ball, he had shot and missed,
no way the french could have got anything out of that.
The red card though could have mattered, since the game was then
decided on PKs.
I guess the ref wasn't sure what to do here, because of this.
> I can't believe the Irish prime minister put the French president
> Sarkozy on the spot. That Arsene Wenger the Arsenal French coach had
> to come in front of the Microphone and apologize to avoid backlash.
I might add, this whole incident, even if we accept the irish version
of it, is nowhere close to Italy / Spain 02, for instance. (Not to
mention Germany - Italy 06 again.) It's incredibly blown out of
proportion.
> The only way to fix this is to have video replay in soccer, not to
> have the match replayed
Absolutely.
Clément
> varois83 wrote:
> > try to google Schumacher the German keeper who
> > in 1982 destroyed French player Battiston's jaw. A red card for the
> > German keeper and a penalty kick were in order but nothing happened
> > and we got eliminated.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3byTNRoxujo
>
> Thanks for the link.
> In all fairness, a red card would have been in order but not a
> penalty. Battiston had already lost that ball, he had shot and missed,
> no way the french could have got anything out of that.
I have no time to double-check the rules right now, but this doesn't
make sense to me. Either it was a foul or it wasn't. Whether Battiston
had lost the ball has nothing to do with it (the ball was still in
play).
If the referee thought there wasn't a foul, then there was no call for
a red card either.
(Mind you, the opinion here is that the ref just didn't have the balls
to call it as he saw, a PK and a card at that point of the match).
Abraço,
Luiz Mello
FF
> On Nov 21, 8:21 am, FF wrote:
> > varois83 wrote:
> > > try to google Schumacher the German keeper who
> > > in 1982 destroyed French player Battiston's jaw. A red card for the
> > > German keeper and a penalty kick were in order but nothing happened
> > > and we got eliminated.
> >
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3byTNRoxujo
> >
> > Thanks for the link.
> > In all fairness, a red card would have been in order but not a
> > penalty. Battiston had already lost that ball, he had shot and missed,
> > no way the french could have got anything out of that.
>
> I have no time to double-check the rules right now, but this doesn't
> make sense to me. Either it was a foul or it wasn't. Whether Battiston
> had lost the ball has nothing to do with it (the ball was still in
> play).
It's not in the laws (or at least I didn't find it on a quick look)
but it's how it's done most of the time, I'd say practically every
time. If the attacking team has lost the ball before the foul, the ref
will give no PK. There were discussions over this here on RSS some
time back IIRC. I find it OK, it would be a little too much to let
them score a goal after they lost the ball. IMO it should be in the
laws. Anyway, that's how it's done.
Abubakr
I agree. A penalty should only be given if the attacking player fouled
has a genuine opportunity to play the ball. Heading or booting the
ball ten rows back into the stands and then getting a tap, as Gerrard
and Rooney have in recent times done, should not be deserving of a
spot kick by any reasonable standard of justice.