Benny and Ronaldo
vijaya reddy gosula
After maybe 2 years wathcing Beeny talk about Ronaldo, I have a few
comments to make. First, when Ronaldo was in Barcelona, all Benny would
say is that the defensive schemes and players sucked and that Ronaldo was
playing in amickey mouse league. He pointed out (benny) that Ronaldo would
be a failure if he did indeed move to Italy, where defense in regarded as
the best in the world. Well, Ronaldo moved to Italy, and as we all know
it, has just beaten the record for the most goals in a season by a rookie
foreigner. But now Benny says that Italian defenses suck....well, so would
it be England the country that would finally bring the Ronaldo farce down,
Benny? I would venture guessing that, as soon as he moved to England,
the defenses there would suddenly, inexplicably, turn "soft". Why? Well, I
think anyone can answer that question.
Ronaldo has consitently score in every league he has played, scored big,
decisive goals. I won't go into the merit that other players his age have
won this or that championship. I don't believe anyone playing today has
had the consistency at the top level over his last 4-5 years (17-21!), not
even seasoned veterans, that he has shown us.
I don't know what Benny's grudge is aginst the guy, specially when he
loves players like Kluivert, that are not even a pinky toe compared to
Ronaldo. All I know is that Ronaldo is a great player. He is not in the
same level as the great ones yet. I believe that being a playmaker is in
his future, when his explosiveness has to be replaced by a more measured
style. The he will become great. And hopefully he will have a couple world
cups under his belt.
Vijay
--
Vijay Gosula
e-mail: v-g...@students.uiuc.edu
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~v-gosul
Department of Materials Science & Engineering
Murat Ataman
In article <6gtiar$1m1$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, v-g...@students.uiuc.edu
(vijaya reddy gosula) wrote:
A very good thing about Ronaldo is he can adapt quickly wherever he goes.
It seems he changed his style a little bit this year and adapted it to
Italian defenses.
Funny thing about Benny is that he used to say that Ronaldo would only
score by dribbling pass the defenders and that would only happen in
mickeymouse defense leagues like spain, but Ronaldo was not a FINISHER!
Now it's ironic that we read Benny writing about Ronaldo's (mostly boring)
trademark FINISHES everyweek (therefore, Ronaldo can also finish, eh?).
There will be a day when Benny will start praising this guy. He already
(secretly) likes and admires the guy..
Kevin Cabral
Benny (Be...@benman.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: > Subject: Benny and Ronaldo 15 / 48 lines
: > From: v-g...@students.uiuc.edu (vijaya r at University of Illinois at
: > Urban
: > After maybe 2 years wathcing Beeny talk about Ronaldo, I have a few
: > comments to make. First, when Ronaldo was in Barcelona, all Benny would
: > say is that the defensive schemes and players sucked and that Ronaldo was
: > playing in amickey mouse league. He pointed out (benny) that Ronaldo would
: > be a failure if he did indeed move to Italy, where defense in regarded as
: I never said he would be a failure in Italy I said he wouldn't score a goal
: a game. I'll admit he's done infinitely better than I expected. I thought
: defenders would be smart enough to realise he's only a threat running from
: 20-30yds and ruthless enough to stop him. There used to be some World Class
: leg breakers in Serie A, that's no longer the case and that coupled with
: so many cheap goals given away due to teams continually playing offside has
: seen Ronaldo and many other forwards for that matter score goals for fun.
: I have said in the past that Ronaldo is crap in the box and most of his goals
: are the same, that still stands.
Smart and ruthless "World Class leg breakers"? I guess that's how they like
them in Benniland? Oh for the good old days when brutality ruled on and off
the pitch. When the Iron Lady ruled and the Tough Men stood proud. But I
guess moral decadence has conquered all...
When will the hard men return? When will Konsel learn to go at Ronaldo's shins
cleats-first instead of diving, only to have the agile and strong
Brazilian fly right through him to finish at a tight angle. Goals
should'nt be fun, they should be suffered. In fact, IMO forwards
should'nt be allowed to wear shinguards; after all, their speed already gives
them an unfair advantage over defenders and their agility and acceleration
simply allows for a plethora of cheap goals scored at the expense of
beauty. Taking away this unfair advantage would give forwards more
incentive to shoot from long-range and play with their back to goal and
perfect their turning and shooting technique. Finally, the football can be
played the way it was meant to be!
: > the best in the world. Well, Ronaldo moved to Italy, and as we all know
: > it, has just beaten the record for the most goals in a season by a rookie
: > foreigner. But now Benny says that Italian defenses suck....well, so would
: > it be England the country that would finally bring the Ronaldo farce down,
: > Benny? I would venture guessing that, as soon as he moved to England,
: > the defenses there would suddenly, inexplicably, turn "soft". Why? Well, I
: > think anyone can answer that question.
: As far back as May 1997 I said I doubt Ronaldo would finish top scorer in
: England as Premiership teams do not rely on playing offside and I also
: commented before Ronaldo came to Italy that I felt the defences were
: deteriorating. Over the past two seasons Serie A's top scorer has had a better
: strike-rate than their Premiership counterparts. Of the leading goalscorers
: in Italy IMO only Inzaghi, Montella and Del Piero have the potential to
: finish top goalscorers in the Premiership. Inzaghi and Montella because of
: their instinctive finishing ability and Del Piero because of his all round
: brilliance. Ronaldo would need to play in a team that relied on counter
: attacking, that's not the way they play in England. He would need to adapt
: his style of play. Bierhoff may be great in the air but Premiership defences
: and goalkeepers are far better at dealing with crosses than their Italian
: counterparts and Batistuta is already past it.
No, any Premiership team with half a brain would adapt its style for
Ronaldo. BTW, let's look at the scorer's table in Premiership:
Cole (Man Utd) 13 5 0 5 0 23
Hartson (West Ham) 13 3 6 0 0 22
Sutton (Blackburn) 17 2 1 0 0 20
Dublin (Coventry) 15 4 1 0 0 20
Owen (Liverpool) 15 0 4 1 0 20
Bergkamp (Arsenal) 14 3 2 1 0 20
Do you consider Cole, Owen, and Bergkamp to be "pure strikers" in your
Alan Shearer mode? I know far less about Hartson, Sutton and Dublin - so I
won't comment on them. But I'll let the statistics speak for themselves on
the ability of "forwards" to score, regardless of whether they fit your
cookie-cutter model of the English Striker.
: As long as he doesn't win a EC I'll be happy. Ronaldo is the best in the
: World at what he does and that is utilising his pace and strength to run at
: defences from deep positions just as Bierhoff is probably the best header
: of the ball in the World. IMO Ronaldo is not and never will be what I
: consider, what I look for in a striker he just happens to score more goals
: than his rivals despite the fact that can't finish in more ways than them.
You're right. Don't bother to look for forwards that score more goals than
their rivals. Better to find a forward that is a Striker. After all, isn't
a Striker a universal fixture on any great soccer team? Who cares
about incredibly unique (read: superbly talented) players like Ronaldo who
can terrorize defenses with a flick of a synapse, and the blur of legs
flying into the perfect position to make the opposition look foolish when
you can have a Striker!
- Kevin
Dario Higuchi
Concordo com tudo....
O teu home-page ta maneiro, parabens...
Abraco,
Dario
vijaya reddy gosula wrote:
>
> After maybe 2 years wathcing Beeny talk about Ronaldo, I have a few
> comments to make. First, when Ronaldo was in Barcelona, all Benny would
> say is that the defensive schemes and players sucked and that Ronaldo was
> playing in amickey mouse league. He pointed out (benny) that Ronaldo would
> be a failure if he did indeed move to Italy, where defense in regarded as
> the best in the world. Well, Ronaldo moved to Italy, and as we all know
> it, has just beaten the record for the most goals in a season by a rookie
> foreigner. But now Benny says that Italian defenses suck....well, so would
> it be England the country that would finally bring the Ronaldo farce down,
> Benny? I would venture guessing that, as soon as he moved to England,
> the defenses there would suddenly, inexplicably, turn "soft". Why? Well, I
> think anyone can answer that question.
>
> Ronaldo has consitently score in every league he has played, scored big,
> decisive goals. I won't go into the merit that other players his age have
> won this or that championship. I don't believe anyone playing today has
> had the consistency at the top level over his last 4-5 years (17-21!), not
> even seasoned veterans, that he has shown us.
>
> I don't know what Benny's grudge is aginst the guy, specially when he
> loves players like Kluivert, that are not even a pinky toe compared to
> Ronaldo. All I know is that Ronaldo is a great player. He is not in the
> same level as the great ones yet. I believe that being a playmaker is in
> his future, when his explosiveness has to be replaced by a more measured
> style. The he will become great. And hopefully he will have a couple world
> cups under his belt.
>
Paul Mettewie
Benny wrote:
> As long as he doesn't win a EC I'll be happy. Ronaldo is the best in the
Get ready to be sad next year. But then, you've been sad for quite
a while (and I referring to just your happiness in soccer terms).
> World at what he does and that is utilising his pace and strength to run at
> defences from deep positions just as Bierhoff is probably the best header
> of the ball in the World. IMO Ronaldo is not and never will be what I
> consider, what I look for in a striker he just happens to score more goals
> than his rivals despite the fact that can't finish in more ways than them.
Gaaaakkkkk......cough....cough.....cough. Help! Give me a glass of water.
Please. This last phrase climbs new heights (or rather, plumbs new depths)
of logical inanity.
The BENNY THEOREM OF STRIKING:
(in some quarters known as the Benman Corollary of Finishing,
in others the Rossonero Derivation of Footy, and in most circles
as a big, fat, reeking pile of ..........)
Striker A (fair header, fair kick, fair pace, fair hair) = the best forward to
have!!!!
Striker B (horrid header, good kick, mediocre pace, long hair) = second best!!!!!
Ronaldinho (fair header, good kick, incredible pace, no hair) = absolute
shite!!!!!!
So the 4 goals striker A has, and the 5 goals striker B
has somehow are more valid and enjoyable than the
15 (I will subtract all his penalties, even though most
were earned by fouls on him, although Benny would
insist they were dives.....) of Ronaldinho.
Hmmmmmm......4 + 5 > 15?????
However this is to be expected from someone who
somehow wishes 42 would be greater than 62.
Actually I think the perfect striker for Benny would
be a forward of all-around mediocre skills with
prostethic legs. This way he could amaze us all with
the variety of goals he *almost* will score while absorbing
leg-breaking tackle after leg-breaking tackle with little
discernable effect. Therefore a strange karma is realized,
the serene calm upon the face of Droidaldo would only be
equalized by the equally empty expanse of the scoresheet
by Cyborgtuta's name....
Benny, Benny, Benny......you may not like Ronaldinho for
whatever strange predilections have populated your soccer
consciousness over the years. You may not like him because
he is Brasilian and has turned three consecutive European
leagues topsy-turvy. You may not like him because now
Inter is once again regaining dominance that it once held
before your convenient reign of lossonero fandom.
But your attempts to insist that you do not like him because
he is not a good striker, scorer, forward, player, dribbler,
header, finisher, passer (some, all, combinations, derivations,
blenderized concotions of some or all of the former
components -- whatever....) have passed from the merely
ludicrous into the stuff of legend.
I think that you may now reach the Valhalla of RSSSF
archives as an orginator, and not the subject, of an epic.
You must be glowing with pride.
Benny would swoon if the Terminator signed a contract with
Meewan.
- Riff "Wait a minute, he did.....but the things he terminated weren't on a pitch"
Ster
Benny
> Subject: Benny and Ronaldo 15 / 48 lines
> From: v-g...@students.uiuc.edu (vijaya r at University of Illinois at
> Urban
> After maybe 2 years wathcing Beeny talk about Ronaldo, I have a few
> comments to make. First, when Ronaldo was in Barcelona, all Benny would
> say is that the defensive schemes and players sucked and that Ronaldo was
> playing in amickey mouse league. He pointed out (benny) that Ronaldo would
> be a failure if he did indeed move to Italy, where defense in regarded as
I never said he would be a failure in Italy I said he wouldn't score a goal
a game. I'll admit he's done infinitely better than I expected. I thought
defenders would be smart enough to realise he's only a threat running from
20-30yds and ruthless enough to stop him. There used to be some World Class
leg breakers in Serie A, that's no longer the case and that coupled with
so many cheap goals given away due to teams continually playing offside has
seen Ronaldo and many other forwards for that matter score goals for fun.
I have said in the past that Ronaldo is crap in the box and most of his goals
are the same, that still stands.
> the best in the world. Well, Ronaldo moved to Italy, and as we all know
> it, has just beaten the record for the most goals in a season by a rookie
> foreigner. But now Benny says that Italian defenses suck....well, so would
> it be England the country that would finally bring the Ronaldo farce down,
> Benny? I would venture guessing that, as soon as he moved to England,
> the defenses there would suddenly, inexplicably, turn "soft". Why? Well, I
> think anyone can answer that question.
As far back as May 1997 I said I doubt Ronaldo would finish top scorer in
England as Premiership teams do not rely on playing offside and I also
commented before Ronaldo came to Italy that I felt the defences were
deteriorating. Over the past two seasons Serie A's top scorer has had a better
strike-rate than their Premiership counterparts. Of the leading goalscorers
in Italy IMO only Inzaghi, Montella and Del Piero have the potential to
finish top goalscorers in the Premiership. Inzaghi and Montella because of
their instinctive finishing ability and Del Piero because of his all round
brilliance. Ronaldo would need to play in a team that relied on counter
attacking, that's not the way they play in England. He would need to adapt
his style of play. Bierhoff may be great in the air but Premiership defences
and goalkeepers are far better at dealing with crosses than their Italian
counterparts and Batistuta is already past it.
> I don't know what Benny's grudge is aginst the guy, specially when he
> loves players like Kluivert, that are not even a pinky toe compared to
I don't like the type of goals he scores and the way he scores goals i.e.
utilising his pace and hitting teams on the counter attack and his diving.
Kluivert is not one of my favourite players, he's not even close, I have said
he's a complete forward but he's struggled in Serie A. Physically and mentally
he's not up for it, Ronaldo is.
> style. The he will become great. And hopefully he will have a couple world
> cups under his belt.
As long as he doesn't win a EC I'll be happy. Ronaldo is the best in the
World at what he does and that is utilising his pace and strength to run at
defences from deep positions just as Bierhoff is probably the best header
of the ball in the World. IMO Ronaldo is not and never will be what I
consider, what I look for in a striker he just happens to score more goals
than his rivals despite the fact that can't finish in more ways than them.
Benny, Middlesbrough, England. http://www.benman.demon.co.uk/index.htm
Serie A Results and Stats will be posted on my Website every Sunday/Monday.
Also Soccer Desktop Themes, Transfers for next Season & France 98 Squads
"A beautiful Woman does not always make the best wife", Rene Simoes, coach
of Jamaica
Alex K Mizuki
ata...@ix.netcom.com (Murat Ataman) writes:
>There will be a day when Benny will start praising this guy. He already
>(secretly) likes and admires the guy..
Benny's secret admiration for Ronaldo has been well documented in
the guest pages of http://www.ronaldinho.com . In fact, there is
incriminating evidence of a user called "Ynneb" who frequently
leaves messages there. Here are some of the transcripts:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 20, 1997 4:30:43
Ynneb <yn...@yneb.co.uk>
Middlesbrough, England
Ronaldo,
I'm your biggest fan and I think it's wonderful that you've admitted to
wetting your bed. I also like the fact that you haven't gotten braces
yet... you are giving us mere mortals hope since someone who we
greatly idolize so kindly gives us illusions of imperfections. Write back!
Ynneb
------------------------------------------------------------------------
May 10, 1997 6:30:32
Ynneb <yn...@yneb.co.uk>
Middlesbrough, England
Ronaldo, I want to congratulate you on your wonderful conquest of the
Cup Winner's Cup. The CWC is such a great competition -- I even like
it better than the Champion's League.
Ynneb
------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 20, 1997 3:50:32
Ynneb <yn...@yneb.co.uk>
Middlesbrough, England
Ronaldo, I support you 100% in the struggle between your agent (Pimpnaldo)
and you club (Brothelona). They're all trying to take advantage of your
sublime talents.
Ynneb
------------------------------------------------------------------------
May 20, 1998 4:30:12
Ynneb <yn...@yneb.co.uk>
Middlesbrough, England
Ronaldo, You're the most complete striker in the history of of Serie
A. Ten times better than that diving twat Marco Van Basten.
Ynneb
<EOT>
Kenny Green
Benny wrote:
>
> I never said he would be a failure in Italy I said he wouldn't score a goal> a game. I'll admit he's done infinitely better than I expected. I thought> defenders would be smart enough to realise he's only a threat running from 20-30yds and ruthless enough to stop him. There used to be some World Class leg breakers in Serie A, that's no longer the case and that coupled with> so many cheap goals given away due to teams continually playing offside has seen Ronaldo and many other forwards for that matter score goals for fun. I have said in the past that Ronaldo is crap in the box and most of his goals are the same, that still stands.
> >
Is there no end to your contradictions ? You are trying to convince
people who watch football regularly, and actually look at it seriously,
that Ronaldo wouldnt top score in a league where Andy Cole and Michael
Owen are leading the scorers ? Dion Dublin ?
The same league where the slightest expression of skill from Michael
Owen makes him a big name, when he looked like any other ordinary
forward when he played in the U20 WC in Malaysia (He wasnt even in the
top 7). I dont hear Brazilians saying that Adailton is comparable to
Ronaldo...and he is infinitely better than Owen for example as a pure
scorer IMO.
You are a fool when you start to shift the boundaries as to what makes
someone great. Maradona is and was a great great footballer. He may be a
cheat, and a stupid human being, but morality has never been the guide
to greatness in sports...or in life in general. Ronaldo is the best
striker / forward in the world.
If you take Shearer for example, his main claim to fame besides his
scoring in the Premiership (wow), is the fact that he was top scorer in
Euro 96, at home in England, with all the matches being played at
Wembley. In fact Shearer has done very little in European Club football,
being made to look ordinary from Spartak, to Rosenborg. Doesnt make him
a poor striker, but it sure doesnt make his case stronger, and thats
when you assess the performances as seen. Hell Scillaci did the very
same thing Shearer did, which is to top score in a tournament at home.
The Premiership has not achieved anything in the last few years....In
fact that their main hopes year in year out in the CWC just about sums
it up. The strike rate in Italy has increased purely because the level
of striking has gone on the upturn at the same time as the fact for the
first time, unlike before, Italian clubs no longer have generically
Italian defences, which means that they are experiencing the same
problems that were experienced when foreign strikers started to
infiltrate the league ..ie lack of communication and coordination.
I have followed Milan since the days of Ancelotti as a player (one you
would love no doubt)...and I can honestly say, Ronaldo is great, by any
definition. Van Basten was a different type of player, but him scoring
goals that appealed to you more (and a highlight reel of Ronaldos goals
show just as much variety), doesnt make Ronaldo less of a striker.
Ronaldo has developed quicker than any other striker since Pele (people
forget how young he is), and has only one identifiable weakness...which
is his reluctance to attack headers, which really isnt a weakness,
because when you see his headed goals they actually demonstrate that he
has no problems putting them away.
Your opinions would be more valuable if you actually had something, a
thread of logic which actually supported it. Unfortunately when you
claim that Maradona is not one of the greatest players ever simply
because he never won a EC, or that implicitly Ronaldo couldnt outscore
Dion Dublin, Owen or Cole because of some sophisticated premiership
defences (Tell PAOK about Arsenals terror defence)...then you condemn
yourself to solely being impressed by your own knowledge.
Kenny
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 49 / 67 lines
> From: ata...@ix.netcom.com (Murat Ataman) at SuKi International
> Funny thing about Benny is that he used to say that Ronaldo would only
> score by dribbling pass the defenders and that would only happen in
> mickeymouse defense leagues like spain, but Ronaldo was not a FINISHER!
> Now it's ironic that we read Benny writing about Ronaldo's (mostly boring)
> trademark FINISHES everyweek (therefore, Ronaldo can also finish, eh?).
He's not what I call an instinctive finisher or great finisher because
basically he can only score one way.
> There will be a day when Benny will start praising this guy. He already
> (secretly) likes and admires the guy..
I’ll never like him and as long as he doesn’t win a EC I’ll be happy. If he
wins a EC I don’t know, maybe I’ll stop watching football or something.
Marcelo Weinberger
Kenny Green (gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
: The same league where the slightest expression of skill from Michael
: Owen makes him a big name, when he looked like any other ordinary
: forward when he played in the U20 WC in Malaysia (He wasnt even in the
: top 7). I dont hear Brazilians saying that Adailton is comparable to
: Ronaldo... and he is infinitely better than Owen for example as a pure
: scorer IMO.
So this Owen character played in Malaysia? I didn't even hear about him!
There was Nico Olivera, Zalayeta, Adailton, Riquelme, Aimar, Cambiasso,
Henry, and I think that even Trezeguet, but Owen?
To put things in perspective, the best three players in Malaysia,
Olivera, Zalayeta, and Aimar, are still being pushed slowly by Valencia,
Juventus, and River Plate, respectively. Actually, I don't remember now
whether the third was Aimar or Riquelme. If it's the latter, he was
overhyped by Boca Jrs. and now they want to get rid of him.
Cheers,
--
Marcelo
Kareem Elwakil
I think people should stop paying attention to Benny and his pathetic
remarks regarding Ronny. By the way, Ronaldo scored 2 goals today to bring
Inter to the final. I know Benny's probably going to say that the UEFA cup
isn't a good competition. It's kind of funny, because his favorite team
Milan probably won't be making any cup this year - unless Lazio doesn't
smash them in the second leg of the coppa. Point is, Ronaldo is better than
any forward on Milan (except Kluivert - who has been FABULOUS this year.
he's scored a blistering 6 GOALS to bring Milan to an incredibly high 8 th
place ranking. what leadership!!). The closest to him is Weah, who still
isn't as good as Ronaldo. Ronaldo isn't world class, he's GALAXY CLASS!!!!
,Kareem
esse
Kareem Elwakil wrote:
When you disagree with somebody, bash his favourite team. BTW, Kareem,
aren't used to be Milan's fan ? Where's your "Forza Milan" signature ?
Thach Hoang Nguyen
Marcelo Weinberger wrote:
> So this Owen character played in Malaysia? I didn't even hear about him!
> There was Nico Olivera, Zalayeta, Adailton, Riquelme, Aimar, Cambiasso,
> Henry, and I think that even Trezeguet, but Owen?
That'd rather be your being shortsighted on European participants.
Micheal scored in every game but 1 in Malaysia. Well, consider the hype the
three South American team (deservedly) got, I'm not surprised.
Massa Sugano
Marcelo Weinberger wrote:
>
> Kenny Green (gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : The same league where the slightest expression of skill from Michael
> : Owen makes him a big name, when he looked like any other ordinary
> : forward when he played in the U20 WC in Malaysia (He wasnt even in the
> : top 7). I dont hear Brazilians saying that Adailton is comparable to
> : Ronaldo... and he is infinitely better than Owen for example as a pure
> : scorer IMO.
>
> There was Nico Olivera, Zalayeta, Adailton, Riquelme, Aimar, Cambiasso,
> Henry, and I think that even Trezeguet, but Owen?
>
> Olivera, Zalayeta, and Aimar, are still being pushed slowly by Valencia,
> Juventus, and River Plate, respectively. Actually, I don't remember now
> whether the third was Aimar or Riquelme. If it's the latter, he was
> overhyped by Boca Jrs. and now they want to get rid of him.
The third was Nakamura. He was being pushed slowly by Yokohama Marinos,
but he's currently a starter. :-)
First of all, did England qualify for the Under-20 in Malaysia? If they
did, they must have had quite an ordinary tournament, as I did not hear
anything about them. The Irish squad, on the other hand, was quite
brilliant, arriving to the semi's starring Damian Duff, Robbie Keane, etc.
Boca's Riquelme is being pursued by Parma, and they may even have a deal
already for 1999.
Massa Sugano
(.................)
Kareem Elwakil
FORZA WEAH + ROSSI, FORZA RONALDO
There you have it. Weah and Rossi have been carrying the team on their
backs. I'm not a traditional football fan, I love and respect good play,
and, if a team fails to perform to their standards throughout the course of
30 something weeks, forget them. Yes, I do want to see Juventus lose, but
if they win, I won't hesitate to praise them, because they are great.
Milan's play this year has been disgraceful, the defence is damn joke, and,
other than Weah, so is the offense. Occasionally, Ba and Boban will step up
and play for real, but even then, they fail to fulfill the standards set by
themselves and others from around the world. Right now, I am concerning my
efforts to the title race, and, since I love Ronaldo, I am with Inter on
this one. As for Milan, they've been sneaking in wins, like the one against
Lazio, and following them up with garbage play. I do have to admit, Milan
was pretty good against Atalanta the other day. It doesn't matter though,
because they have lost when it matters and won when it doesn't. I'm not
like many people - I don't pick a team to like and make fun of everyone
else's favorite team. The thing is, Benny has made fun of Ronaldo's teeth,
bed wetting problem, and other crap that has jack shit to do with what he
does on the field. Now, if you have noticed, he's beginning to realize how
pathetic his statements were about Ronaldo not scoring a single goal. He
has more goals than the two leading scorers on Milan added up (with room to
spare).
Paul Grave
Kenny Green wrote in message <3533C9...@mail.globalnet.co.uk>...
>The Premiership has not achieved anything in the last few years....In
>fact that their main hopes year in year out in the CWC just about sums
>it up. The strike rate in Italy has increased purely because the level
You can compare the Leagues just by looking at the number of teams Italy has
in the Euro competitions and the number of English teams currently in
Europe. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest to me that the
Premiership is stronger than than Seria A. Does it need for Inter to play
Man U or someone and Ronaldo to bag a hatrick before Benny admits he's the
worlds best goalscorer.
Marcelo Weinberger
Massa Sugano (sug...@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Marcelo Weinberger wrote:
: > So this Owen character played in Malaysia? I didn't even hear about
: > him! There was Nico Olivera, Zalayeta, Adailton, Riquelme, Aimar,
: > Cambiasso, Henry, and I think that even Trezeguet, but Owen?
: >
: > To put things in perspective, the best three players in Malaysia,
: > Olivera, Zalayeta, and Aimar, are still being pushed slowly by
: > Valencia, Juventus, and River Plate, respectively. Actually, I don't
: > remember now whether the third was Aimar or Riquelme. If it's the
: > latter, he was overhyped by Boca Jrs. and now they want to get rid
: > of him.
: The third was Nakamura.
: First of all, did England qualify for the Under-20 in Malaysia? If
: they did, they must have had quite an ordinary tournament, as I did
: not hear anything about them.
Yes they did. Weren't they eliminated by Argentina in QF?
: Boca's Riquelme is being pursued by Parma, and they may even have a
: deal already for 1999.
Yes, but things changed for him in the last 6 months. After Malaysia,
Boca was asking 20 million dollars for him (!!!) and they wouldn't let
him go for the 14 million that Parma was supposedly offering. It was
rather surprising considering that Juventus was getting Zalayeta for 6
million, together with Pellegrin in the same package deal... Currently,
Riquelme is not playing in Boca; he didn't play last Saturday against
River even though Cagna and Cardoso were with the national team. The
coach Veira says he doesn't work enough during the games, and that's why
they brought Cardoso from Germany two months ago to play in his
position. Also Passarella dropped him from the national squad, and Boca
is anxious to sell him before his "market value" (whatever this means)
plunges. An Argentine player that I liked a lot was Cambiasso, of Real
Madrid, who is very young and will play another U-20 WC: as far as I
know, he never got close to being in Real Madrid's main squad. The only
U-20 world champion that is playing out of Argentina is Scaloni, who
usually starts for La Corun~a. Aimar is Gallardo's back-up in River,
where Placente is Sorin's back-up (but he plays very frequently); Samuel
is Fabbri's back-up in Boca, and most of the others are starting for
smaller clubs (Romeo, Perezlindo, Cufre).
Uruguayan clubs, instead, couldn't keep their U-20 who went to big
European clubs, where they see limited action: Zalayeta and Pellegrin in
Juventus, Rivas in Inter, Nico Olivera in Valencia, Pablo Garcia in
Atletico de Madrid. Melon~o went to San Lorenzo in Argentina and never
played. The ones that stayed in Uruguay are playing in small clubs,
except for Munua, Coelho, and Regueiro, who play for Nacional. Pen~arol
had one who could start this year, Perea (a defender that scored the
golden goal against Ghana), but he passed away in a car accident.
--
Marcelo
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 38 / 110 lines
> From: kca...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Cabr at The Greater Columbus
> Fre
> Smart and ruthless "World Class leg breakers"? I guess that's how they like
> them in Benniland? Oh for the good old days when brutality ruled on and off
> the pitch. When the Iron Lady ruled and the Tough Men stood proud. But I
> guess moral decadence has conquered all...
If he wasn't such a diving bastard there would be no need for ruthless
defending but if he's not prepared to play by the rules then neither should
defenders.
> No, any Premiership team with half a brain would adapt its style for
> Ronaldo. BTW, let's look at the scorer's table in Premiership:
Yes, right so every team will adopt a counter-attacking style and feed
through balls for Ronaldo to break through the oppositions offside trap?
> Do you consider Cole, Owen, and Bergkamp to be "pure strikers" in your
> Alan Shearer mode? I know far less about Hartson, Sutton and Dublin - so I
Cole definitely, Bergkamp plays too deep to be considered a striker. Owen
looks the part. Sutton is sort of the English version of Bergkamp in that
he's equally proficient with both feet, in the air and is creative.
> about incredibly unique (read: superbly talented) players like Ronaldo who
> can terrorize defenses with a flick of a synapse, and the blur of legs
> flying into the perfect position to make the opposition look foolish when
> you can have a Striker!
I don't like his style or players who play that style deal with it, it's my
personal preference.
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 32 / 90 lines
> From: Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> at Seascape Designs
> Is there no end to your contradictions ? You are trying to convince
> people who watch football regularly, and actually look at it seriously,
> that Ronaldo wouldnt top score in a league where Andy Cole and Michael
> Owen are leading the scorers ? Dion Dublin ?
The leading scorer is Sutton, if Shearer had been fit all season I'm sure
he'd be top scorer.
> The same league where the slightest expression of skill from Michael
> Owen makes him a big name, when he looked like any other ordinary
> forward when he played in the U20 WC in Malaysia (He wasnt even in the
> top 7). I dont hear Brazilians saying that Adailton is comparable to
> Ronaldo...and he is infinitely better than Owen for example as a pure
> scorer IMO.
Bollocks. The Premiership is a very physical league, what Owen has achieved
in his FIRST full season of football is amazing.
> You are a fool when you start to shift the boundaries as to what makes
> someone great. Maradona is and was a great great footballer. He may be a
In your opinion, not mine. As I have said before if he was HALF the player
you claim he would have won more than 2 Serie A titles, a UEFA Cup and the
Italian Cup, the fact is he is not one of the greatest club players of all
time, not without a EC.
> cheat, and a stupid human being, but morality has never been the guide
> to greatness in sports...or in life in general. Ronaldo is the best
> striker / forward in the world.
Best goalscorer, not best forward (Del Piero) and certainly not best striker.
> If you take Shearer for example, his main claim to fame besides his
> scoring in the Premiership (wow), is the fact that he was top scorer in
> Euro 96, at home in England, with all the matches being played at
> Wembley. In fact Shearer has done very little in European Club football,
An American didn't finish top scorer at USA '94, a Mexican didn't finish top
scorer at Mexico 86, a Swedish player didn't finish top scorer at Euro '92 nor
a German at Euro '88. Playing at home is only an advantage if the team make
it an advantage, if they have good players and don't choke under the
pressure.
As for Shearer I said he's a great finisher based on his ability to put away
chances.
> it up. The strike rate in Italy has increased purely because the level
> of striking has gone on the upturn at the same time as the fact for the
> first time, unlike before, Italian clubs no longer have generically
> Italian defences, which means that they are experiencing the same
> problems that were experienced when foreign strikers started to
> infiltrate the league ..ie lack of communication and coordination.
Bollocks, it's because they insist on playing offside and because Italian
clubs no longer produce World Class defenders. At the last World Cup Italy
lined up Baresi, Tassotti, Maldini and Costacurta in defence, all
undisputedly World Class defenders now you're hard pushed to find 4 genuine
World Class defenders in the whole of Serie A. Who is there? Thuram and then?
Maldini, not half the player he used to be. Costacurta, maybe, Cannavaro?
Nesta? Sartor? Bergomi? Aldair? Half of them are past it the other half
haven't played enough at the top level.
> forget how young he is), and has only one identifiable weakness...which
> is his reluctance to attack headers, which really isnt a weakness,
Lack of agility is a weakness, lack of the ability to strike the ball first
time is a weakness, lack of ability in pulling away from markers in the box is
a weakness.
> Your opinions would be more valuable if you actually had something, a
> thread of logic which actually supported it. Unfortunately when you
> claim that Maradona is not one of the greatest players ever simply
> because he never won a EC, or that implicitly Ronaldo couldnt outscore
I said he's not one of the greatest club players.
> Dion Dublin, Owen or Cole because of some sophisticated premiership
> defences (Tell PAOK about Arsenals terror defence)...then you condemn
> yourself to solely being impressed by your own knowledge.
Sutton, Shearer and Bergkamp are the best forwards in the Premiership and
Arsenal went out on away goals after dominating.
Carvalho
Benny wrote:
> > From: Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> at Seascape Designs
> > Is there no end to your contradictions ? You are trying to convince
> > people who watch football regularly, and actually look at it seriously,
> > that Ronaldo wouldnt top score in a league where Andy Cole and Michael
> > Owen are leading the scorers ? Dion Dublin ?
> The leading scorer is Sutton, if Shearer had been fit all season I'm sure
> he'd be top scorer.
And are you going to tell me how great is Shearer?
Sorry, my friend, Shearer is the local boy for domestic consumption.
I rate Tulio higher than Shearer (just compare Tulio 1 goal per game
ratio for the Brazilian national team) and Shearer no-performance
outside of the island.
> > The same league where the slightest expression of skill from Michael
> > Owen makes him a big name, when he looked like any other ordinary
> > forward when he played in the U20 WC in Malaysia (He wasnt even in the
> > top 7). I dont hear Brazilians saying that Adailton is comparable to
> > Ronaldo...and he is infinitely better than Owen for example as a pure
> > scorer IMO.
> Bollocks. The Premiership is a very physical league, what Owen has achieved
> in his FIRST full season of football is amazing.
So what that it is physical! What it matters is the skill level of the
league.
I bet that the Lithuanian league is as physical as the Premiership. What
a big deal!
English teams defenses are a joke compared to defenses from any of the
half dozen of countries with more developed leagues than england.
BTW: just name how many world classs forwards play in England today?
Both Adailton and Roni performed better than Owen in Malaysis and
Adailton is a completely stranger in Brasil and Roni usually sits on the
bench at Fluminense a Serie B team.
> > cheat, and a stupid human being, but morality has never been the guide
> > to greatness in sports...or in life in general. Ronaldo is the best
> > striker / forward in the world.
> Best goalscorer, not best forward (Del Piero) and certainly not best striker.
Hehehehehe
> > If you take Shearer for example, his main claim to fame besides his
> > scoring in the Premiership (wow), is the fact that he was top scorer in
> > Euro 96, at home in England, with all the matches being played at
> > Wembley. In fact Shearer has done very little in European Club football,
> An American didn't finish top scorer at USA '94, a Mexican didn't finish top
> scorer at Mexico 86, a Swedish player didn't finish top scorer at Euro '92 nor
> a German at Euro '88. Playing at home is only an advantage if the team make
> it an advantage, if they have good players and don't choke under the
> pressure.
That just proves that Shearer is better than Wynalda.
> As for Shearer I said he's a great finisher based on his ability to put away
> chances.
1 Shearer == 1/2 Bierhoff == 1/2 Kirsten == 2/3 Vieri == 1/3 Batistuta
== 1/5 Ronaldo
> Bollocks, it's because they insist on playing offside and because Italian
> clubs no longer produce World Class defenders.
So tell me which country has better defenders than Italy?
> > forget how young he is), and has only one identifiable weakness...which
> > is his reluctance to attack headers, which really isnt a weakness,
> Lack of agility is a weakness, lack of the ability to strike the ball first
!!!! lACK OF AGILITY!!!
Irineu
Rhubarb
Benny <Be...@benman.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> I’ll never like him and as long as he doesn’t win a EC I’ll be happy. If
he
> wins a EC I don’t know, maybe I’ll stop watching football or something.
>
If you only watch Serie A then you have stopped already.
Rhubarb
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
> The same league where the slightest expression of skill from Michael
> Owen makes him a big name, when he looked like any other ordinary
> forward when he played in the U20 WC in Malaysia
What makes Owen a big name is his youth and his potential.
He's been a bit quiet recently, scored against Man Utd then
got sent off.
Rhubarb
Kevin Cabral <kca...@freenet.columbus.oh.us> wrote in article
>
> Smart and ruthless "World Class leg breakers"? I guess that's how they
like
> them in Benniland? Oh for the good old days when brutality ruled on and
off
> the pitch. When the Iron Lady ruled and the Tough Men stood proud. But I
> guess moral decadence has conquered all...
>
>
I am always amazed how little understanding of the game
and it's history we see in posts that originate in non soccer
cultures. This is a good example. BTW, I am not condoning
any of these tactic. In Italy they have always had a non-football
way to augment their football, it's the only means they have
of getting to the top - I should add their football is good but
not good enough by itself. One time they were famous for hacking
players ruthlessly. Now they use the sly dive and play the
referees.
>
Rhubarb
Carvalho <carv...@mit.edu> wrote in article
> > An American didn't finish top scorer at USA '94, a Mexican didn't
finish top
> > scorer at Mexico 86, a Swedish player didn't finish top scorer at Euro
'92 nor
> > a German at Euro '88. Playing at home is only an advantage if the team
make
> > it an advantage, if they have good players and don't choke under the
> > pressure.
>
> That just proves that Shearer is better than Wynalda.
>
This Carvalho person is quite the estupido really. He was going
quite well until that own goal.
Kenny Green
Benny wrote:
> The leading scorer is Sutton, if Shearer had been fit all season I'm sure he'd be top scorer
>
Sutton is a joke. He is a classic case of Permiership level striker. You
know...kinda like Dion Dublin...half centre half, half centre forward
(for those who dont know when either arent in form they are rapidly
converted into defenders).
> Bollocks. The Premiership is a very physical league, what Owen has achieved in his FIRST full season of football is amazing.
>
Erm....sorry ? Is that a point I missed ? Owen is amazing because he has
thrived in England ?
> In your opinion, not mine. As I have said before if he was HALF the player> you claim he would have won more than 2 Serie A titles, a UEFA Cup and the> Italian Cup, the fact is he is not one of the greatest club players of all> time, not without a EC.
>
This is not up to opinion unfortunately. Whether you like it or not,
Maradona is considered by consensus to be one of the modern greats. You
cannot leave that to opinion. Opinion you leave for the Michael Owens
and the Shearers of this world.....
> Best goalscorer, not best forward (Del Piero) and certainly not best striker.
>
The words split, and hairs come to mind.
> As for Shearer I said he's a great finisher based on his ability to put away > chances.
>
The same chances he snapped up whilst Blackburn marched forward in
Europe vs the giants of Widzew Lodz, Rosenborg, and Spartak ? (the only
team worthy of making a striker work hard).
Shearer is a domestic giant....like Scillaci he has had one good intl
tournament.
>
> Bollocks, it's because they insist on playing offside and because Italian
> clubs no longer produce World Class defenders. At the last World Cup Italy
> lined up Baresi, Tassotti, Maldini and Costacurta in defence, all
> undisputedly World Class defenders now you're hard pushed to find 4 genuine
> World Class defenders in the whole of Serie A. Who is there? Thuram and then?
> Maldini, not half the player he used to be. Costacurta, maybe, Cannavaro?
> Nesta? Sartor? Bergomi? Aldair? Half of them are past it the other half
> haven't played enough at the top level.
>
Ahh...benny. If you did watch football or even take notice you would see
that it is a new phenomenon that Italy is importing defenders. Milan was
based on a generic back line, and once that disappeared so the problems
began. In fact there is a direct correlation between having an Italian
defensive core (Milan and Juve), and the success that comes with it.
Like the change of forward lines in Italy there is bound to be a
transition.
Defences in the Premiership are not good enough. If you look at the
English performances in Europe this year, last year, and the one before
that, on a whole, inept defensive performances especially away, cost
them. Repeat the script for next year....
>
> Lack of agility is a weakness, lack of the ability to strike the ball first> time is a weakness, lack of ability in pulling away from markers in the box is> a weakness.
>
Why am I not surprised that these comments sound stupid....
> I said he's not one of the greatest club players.
>
You think greatness gets given and taken away on occasion ? Maradona is
a modern great !! Van Basten couldnt inspire a much more talented Dutch
team to even get within smelling distance of a WC, and Maradona was
much, much more brutally treated by Spanish and Italian defences than
van Basten was at club level, and also by intl defences. Your opinion is
only valid to your own emotive self. It matters not how Maradona is
considered as a player by consensus.
Do we say that Bobby Moore was not a great player because West Ham never
won a European Champions Cup ? Do we say van Basten and Gullit were
insignificant beacuse they didnt win WCs...
> Sutton, Shearer and Bergkamp are the best forwards in the Premiership and Arsenal went out on away goals after dominating.
>
Arsenal dominated only in one half of a four half tie. They dominated at
Highbury in the first half. They should have lost by more in Greece, and
Bergkamp missed that tie because of his travel fear.
Arsenal like most English teams lose in Europe in the away matches,
because their defences cannot handle the pressure. Had Arsenal been
playing last night vs Spartak in Moscow on the mess of a pitch, they
would have complained about it, and succumbed to it.
As for touting Sutton...who is a classic English centre forward of the
type that Continental defences lap up, well you can have him, and
Shearer.
My basic point is that you are foolish if you believe that Cole, Dublin,
Sutton, Owen and Shearer somehow reflect some standard that Ronaldo has
to look to. They have to look to him. That plodders like Cole are
prolific in England sums up the defensive strength of the league.
Ronaldo is the best forward, striker, guy who sticks the ball in the
back of the net for his team....in the world. Whether you have severe
mood swings when he does well (which means your life is one big mood
swing right now), is of no consequence to how he is regarded.
Kenny
Kenny Green
Rhubarb wrote:
>
> What makes Owen a big name is his youth and his potential.
> He's been a bit quiet recently, scored against Man Utd then
> got sent off.
I dont say Owen isnt talented. Problem is he is talented in a league
where talent is so sought after that he gets lauded as the second
coming, when he is IMO not special. Owen was pretty anonymous in the u20
WC in Malaysia. A poster pointed out that he scored goals, but they were
all early round strikes, and are as valid as mentioning Oleg Salenko as
a great talent....based on his goals in the early WC rounds.
He wasnt IMO, and in the roundup of the tournament even in the top 8
players in the tourney, and many of these other players are still
sitting on benches elsewhere in Italy, Spain and South America.
His youth and potential are nothing unique. His location in England and
a new tool for a Sky hype machine which is running out of positives to
trumpet the Premiership is more significant.
Kenny
Farhad Shawkat
First of all, I'd like to mention that Diego Maradona was never my
favourite player, or even close. However, I'll have to say that I have
never seen anyone as talented as him. Any neutral observer who watched
Serie A games from 87-90 would rate him as one of the most talented
players in the world at that time. Also, did you watch the 86 World Cup ?
His ball skills are still unrivalled, in my opinion.
You say that if Maradona was that good, he would have won more than 2
scudettos, a UEFA cup and an Italian Cup. Well, which club was he playing
for ? Inter, Juve, or Milan ? He played for Napoli. How many titles had
Napoli won in their history ? Do you remember any of their players from
the Maradona era ? Except for Careca and Di Napoli, maybe Renica and
Ferrara, and later on, Zola and Alemao. And Ferrara back then certainly
wasn't half as good as what he is
now. Infact, sometimes, he looked pretty awful. The fact that Maradona
actually
led this squad to the scudetto TWICE is simply amazing. As well as the
UEFA cup,
a trophy which Milan, with ALL their resources, have never won.
While he will never be one of my favourite players, the fact remains that
I shall never see a player more talented than Maradona. Can you think of a
better individual performance in a World Cup ? Pele may have won three
World Cups, but look at the support he had. Vava, Didi, Garrincha,
Amarildo, then Tostao, Jairzinho, Alberto, etc. Except for Maradona, how
many greats did Argentina have in 86, or 90 ? I'm not saying he's better
than Pele, no. Pele was better overall. But as a playmaker, a pure number
10, no one I've seen can come close to Maradona.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rhubarb
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk>
>
> > What makes Owen a big name is his youth and his potential.
> > He's been a bit quiet recently, scored against Man Utd then
> > got sent off.
>
> I dont say Owen isnt talented. Problem is he is talented in a league
> where talent is so sought after that he gets lauded as the second
> coming, when he is IMO not special. Owen was pretty anonymous
> in the u20 WC in Malaysia. A poster pointed out that he scored
> goals, but they were all early round strikes,
I guess he didn't get a chance to score in later rounds because
England didn't get that far. I still think Owen is exeptional for his
age. OK if he were 23 or so then he would not be special but he
is competing against people so much bigger and older.
And I HATE Liverpool.
Kenny Green
Rhubarb wrote:
> I guess he didn't get a chance to score in later rounds because
> England didn't get that far. I still think Owen is exeptional for his
> age. OK if he were 23 or so then he would not be special but he
> is competing against people so much bigger and older.
>
> And I HATE Liverpool.
Which leads me to the point that if you consider what Ronaldo has done
and he is only a few years older than Owen, then you begin to understand
the gap, not only in ability, but in mental fortitude.
Ronaldo has been away from home since he was 17.....People seem to
assess the guy based on the fact that his career is at its peak, when he
basically is still learning.
I am no Ronaldo groupie, but like Maradona, disliking someone should not
prevent you respecting and noting their achievements and ability.
In fact I think Anelka is as good if not better than Owen. take Owen
ship him for a top team in france, and put him in that foreign
atmosphere, and see how he does compared to Anelkas development over
here. Thats what makes or breaks players...their performance under
adversity.
Kenny
Rhubarb
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> wrote
> Which leads me to the point that if you consider what Ronaldo has done
> and he is only a few years older than Owen, then you begin to understand
> the gap, not only in ability, but in mental fortitude.
>
> In fact I think Anelka is as good if not better than Owen. take Owen
> ship him for a top team in france, and put him in that foreign
> atmosphere, and see how he does compared to Anelkas development over
> here. Thats what makes or breaks players...their performance under
> adversity.
>
Or good sensible handling by their coach/manager etc.
Massa Sugano
Marcelo Weinberger wrote:
>
> Massa Sugano (sug...@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
> : Marcelo Weinberger wrote:
>
> : > So this Owen character played in Malaysia? I didn't even hear about
> : > him! There was Nico Olivera, Zalayeta, Adailton, Riquelme, Aimar,
> : > Cambiasso, Henry, and I think that even Trezeguet, but Owen?
> :
>
> Weren't they eliminated by Argentina in QF?
So Owen is as good as Japan's Yanagisawa, who also scored in all but one
game up to the QF. (And I don't even rate Yanagisawa.....)
> where Placente is Sorin's back-up (but he plays very frequently);
I hear that Placente is very sought after in Europe. Sorin himself isn't
bad at all, but he came too early, and then to Juventus.
> Perea (a defender that scored the
> golden goal against Ghana), but he passed away in a car accident.
Massa Sugan0
(..............and Kluivert lives..........)
esse
Massa Sugano wrote:
> So Owen is as good as Japan's Yanagisawa, who also scored in all but one
> game up to the QF. (And I don't even rate Yanagisawa.....)
Very relevant, indeed. How about Owen > Reidle > Del Pierro ?
Anyway, given the hype, the media, the attention, and the kid still keeps his
feet on ground, does his job, you got to respect that.
Chris Applegate
Massa Sugano <sug...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in article
<3533CE...@fas.harvard.edu>...
> First of all, did England qualify for the Under-20 in Malaysia? If they
> did, they must have had quite an ordinary tournament, as I did not hear
> anything about them. The Irish squad, on the other hand, was quite
> brilliant, arriving to the semi's starring Damian Duff, Robbie Keane, etc.
Did indeed. Out-qualfiied the Irish in the qualifying competition (No-one
remembers this though), topped their group (3 wins out of 3) in the finals, but
lost to Argentina (2-1 I think) in the Round of 16, though it was a deserved
victory by the Argentines. Not too bad a tournament, IMHO.
--
Chris A.
Remove x from mail address when replying
Marcelo Weinberger
Benny (Be...@benman.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: I don't care for the World Cup or International football for that
: matter. I'm only interested in the EC and as you know Maradona never
: won the EC, club football's biggest prize therefore I don't rate
: Maradona and no matter how many times you say he can bounce the ball
: off his arse or how many circus tricks he performed he didn't win the
: EC.
Doesn't this qualify as the RSS gem of the century? I really don't
understand why you guys take Benny seriously and even argue with him.
If you come to think of what the Internet is, real life's Benny (if
there is one) could well be laughing at how many so-called "soccer
experts" take seriously the idiocies he writes. There is however one
thing that Internet-Benny once wrote about real-life-Benny, if I recall
correctly, and it's that he didn't grow up with soccer and started
following it as a young adult, relatively recently. Well, Benny, it
shows in every idiocy you write about circus tricks, agility, and
assist statistics. And you see, this alleged experts still take the
character you created (Internet-Benny) seriously. Can you imagine what
you could have accomplished had you invented a character who actually
feels soccer in his veins?
I have trouble finding anything in common with the way the median
English fan views soccer, and I guess it showed in years of discussions.
But there is one thing that I feel when many of them write, which puts
me more on their side than any of the cheating/long balls stuff that
could separate me from them: they really feel soccer in their hearts and
as part of their culture. This makes a tremendous difference with
posters coming from other parts of the world, and it is something very
interesting I learnt in RSS.
Cheers,
--
Marcelo
Paul Grave
Benny wrote in message <892691...@benman.demon.co.uk>...
>> themselves and others from around the world. Right now, I am concerning
my
>> efforts to the title race, and, since I love Ronaldo, I am with Inter on
>> this one. As for Milan, they've been sneaking in wins, like the one
>supporting Inter because you're `concentrating' on the title race. It's not
>possible to find a greater act of treachery.
Barca - Ajax - Milan?
Paul Grave
Benny wrote in message <892695...@benman.demon.co.uk>...
>> Ronaldo has been away from home since he was 17.....People seem to
>> assess the guy based on the fact that his career is at its peak, when he
>> basically is still learning.
Like Leonardo?
Paul Grave
Kenny Green wrote in message <35351F...@mail.globalnet.co.uk>...
>In fact I think Anelka is as good if not better than Owen. take Owen
>ship him for a top team in france, and put him in that foreign
now :-(
Paul Grave
Paul Mettewie wrote in message <3532D502...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Benny, Benny, Benny......you may not like Ronaldinho for
>whatever strange predilections have populated your soccer
>consciousness over the years. You may not like him because
>he is Brasilian and has turned three consecutive European
>leagues topsy-turvy. You may not like him because now
>Inter is once again regaining dominance that it once held
>before your convenient reign of lossonero fandom.
There was this girl during my days at school, and she believed that the
world was flat(true story btw), of course we knew better, but I never found
out whether she truly believed that or if she thought she was smarter than
everyone else by challenging us to come up with an argument to disprove her
theory.
Does Benny truly believe that Ronoldo isn't a good striker, forward,
finisher, player etc.? Or is he pulling the piss?
Kevin Cabral
Benny (Be...@benman.demon.co.uk) wrote:
This entire post is indicative of your general ignorance of soccer outside
of the English sub-continent. Cheers to England getting the **** beat out
of them in the World Cup so that you can go home and contemplate the
'superiority' of 'world-class' strikers like Robbie Fowler. Fowler who?
Oh, the one who sends most of his chances into the skyboxes. It's
particularly funny how you simultaneously compliment Brazilian soccer by
talking about how Adailton and Roni must have received "infinitely better
service" at their Brazilian clubs in this post, and then in the next you
turn around to criticize Brazilian players by saying "but have they ever
set foot in Europe?"
BTW, I think Rhubarb misunderstood my parody of Benny-thought entirely.
The only weird stuff coming out of this thread is originating from Ingerland.
- Kevin
: > Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 35 / 105 lines
: > From: Carvalho <carv...@mit.edu> at MIT
: > Sorry, my friend, Shearer is the local boy for domestic consumption.
: > I rate Tulio higher than Shearer (just compare Tulio 1 goal per game
: > ratio for the Brazilian national team) and Shearer no-performance
: > outside of the island.
: Who's Tulio? Can't recall seeing him play in one of the top European leagues?
: He's better than Luizao isn't he? You know Luizao, the player you said was
: better than Fowler but he can't even score regulalry in a joke league for a
: joke team like Deportivo.
: > English teams defenses are a joke compared to defenses from any of the
: > half dozen of countries with more developed leagues than england.
: That must explain why English teams usually get hammered in Europe by 4-0
: margins.
: > BTW: just name how many world classs forwards play in England today?
: Bergkamp, Flo, Shearer, Fowler and Klinsmann (well he's past it now).
: > Both Adailton and Roni performed better than Owen in Malaysis and
: > Adailton is a completely stranger in Brasil and Roni usually sits on the
: > bench at Fluminense a Serie B team.
: They played in talented Brazil teams and got infintely better service than
: Owen.
: > So tell me which country has better defenders than Italy?
: Why Brazil of course! Italian defenders suck, the best defender in Serie A is
: Thuram and if Nesta and Favalli continue their current form for another
: season you can add them to the list. Cafu is defintely the second best
: foreign defender in Serie A. Around the rest of Europe I rate Johnson
: (Man United), Adams (Arsenal) and Kholer. By defender I mean a player who
: actually defends and tackles not someone who is good at brining the ball
: forward.
: > !!!! lACK OF AGILITY!!!
: Can't recall seeing many overhead kicks and scissor kicks from Ronaldo.
: Benny, Middlesbrough, England. http://www.benman.demon.co.uk/index.htm
Paul Mettewie
Benny wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo (Owen = Yanagisawa) 37 / 55 lines
> > From: mar...@fc.hp.com (Marcelo Weinberger) at Unknown
>
> > shows in every idiocy you write about circus tricks, agility, and
> > assist statistics. And you see, this alleged experts still take the
> > character you created (Internet-Benny) seriously. Can you imagine what
> > you could have accomplished had you invented a character who actually
> > feels soccer in his veins?
>
> How you feel about circus tricks and the World Cup is almost how obsessively
> I feel about the EC. I'm not a fan of International football and go out of
> my way to distinguish between club football and international football the
> problem is you can't appreciate that.
Benny -What YOU don't seem to appreciate is that some people happento like just
plain soccer, be it club, international or national levels.
You block out so much of what I consider wonderful about
the game -- be it a derby, Brasilian footy players (particularly
that guy who continues to score two goals a game while carrying
the burden of not having proper finishing tools.....LUDICROUS!)
The fans in Moscow gave this poor bald lad a standing ovation
after he helped beat their team -- it must be because they
felt sorry for him. I thought it was a moving moment that
signalled that those Moscovites were indeed true fans of the
game, able to appreciate the accomplishments of a rival. Able
to appreciate the beauty of his strike. Ronaldinho is a budding
genius in short pants, you just want to paint him into some narrow
corner because your world can't let this ray of Brasiliero
sunshine in.....pity. Your loss.
That you cannot do so used to make me sad, now it just makes
me shake my head.
I know it isn't Marcelo that is missing out on the game (well,
outside of the fact that Uruguay is leaking good players faster
than the Titanic leaked water....) I know it is *you* Benny. To be
a fan of Meewan and to not feel the power of The Derby is to miss
out on a huge part of what it is to be a fan of Milanese soccer.
I may not agree with a Giovanni (what has become of him?) but
at least he understood this part of game.
So for that part, I don't consider you a Meewan fan, just someone
who wants spectacle. In the USA those types watch professional
wrestling, in Europe I guess they just flick on the telly and watch
the "Champion's League." Not bad when one also pulls for a team
in their local neighborhood or section or town or city. But when
that is ALL that defines soccer for them, hmmmm.....makes me
think that *you* are the victim of hype, not us Ronaldinho admirers.
I think I have it great loving Inter -- I feel the intense emotions
that run current to the holding of the derby, or when the nasty
wicked Signora is being played and I still am interested in even
the matches against Bari or Piacenza or Napoli. For you to deem
these matches unimportant because of the Champion's League
is to deny what soccer is really all about -- appreciating shining
moments (you call them "circus tricks") that make us realize why
we love this game. Sometimes you just appreciate grit and
courage -- like today I appreciated Angelo Perruzzi's effort
against Monaco. If I was a juventino (and thank the Lawdy
I'm not....) I would be bursting with pride at his game -- he
went into that game as a warrior and while he was beaten
twice by the ball, he was never, ever beaten by the opponents.
Heck, I still remember the time *I* chipped a ball over a keeper
in a practice game 25 years ago! Or that time I tied a game
with a penalty kick with a minute left, flicking it off the outside
of my foot and then watching it tick in off the right post. I just
turned around at the time and ran back to our side of the field
like I *planned* for it to do that -- but inside I was a little boy
jumping up and down and imagining that Pele' or Georgie Best
could hardly have done any better! I still remember that one
moment like it was yesterday. For me, those thoughts tie into
why I also love seeing the nerazzurri and rossoneri take the
field against one another or watching Arsenal face Chelsea
or Sao Paulo against Botafogo....it makes one feel a little
more alive and in the world.
I know you like soccer Benny, I just wonder what part
of it you love.....
- Riff "Taking you down memory lane..." Ster
Massa Sugano
Chris Applegate wrote:
>
> Did indeed. Out-qualfiied the Irish in the qualifying competition (No-one
> remembers this though), topped their group (3 wins out of 3) in the finals, but
> lost to Argentina (2-1 I think) in the Round of 16, though it was a deserved
> victory by the Argentines. Not too bad a tournament, IMHO.
So they didn't even make the Quarterfinals. Japan did, losing only in extra time
to Ghana, which in turn lost only in extra time to the great Uruguayan team.
I am not serious at all about the Yanagisawa analogy, but there is indeed a case
for arguing that Japan was better than England. I bet England didn't have an
attacking midfielder as good as Shunsuke Nakamura.......
(And the Irish kids do seem more impressive in the English leagues.)
Massa Sugano
(...............)
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 32 / 53 lines
> From: "Kareem Elwakil" <ka...@ici.net> at The Internet Connection
> themselves and others from around the world. Right now, I am concerning my
> efforts to the title race, and, since I love Ronaldo, I am with Inter on
> this one. As for Milan, they've been sneaking in wins, like the one
> against
So within the space of about a year you've gone from supporting Milan to
supporting Inter because you're `concentrating' on the title race. It's not
possible to find a greater act of treachery.
Benny, Middlesbrough, England. http://www.benman.demon.co.uk/index.htm
Benny
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 37 / 152 lines
> From: Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> at Seascape Designs
> Erm....sorry ? Is that a point I missed ? Owen is amazing because he has
> thrived in England ?
No because in his first full season of Football he's scored 20 goals in one
of the best leagues in Europe.
> This is not up to opinion unfortunately. Whether you like it or not,
> Maradona is considered by consensus to be one of the modern greats. You
> cannot leave that to opinion. Opinion you leave for the Michael Owens
> and the Shearers of this world.....
How can it put it in a way you will understand. I don't care for the World
Cup or International football for that matter. I'm only interested in the EC
and as you know Maradona never won the EC, club football's biggest prize
therefore I don't rate Maradona and no matter how many times you say he can
bounce the ball off his arse or how many circus tricks he performed he didn't
win the EC.
> Ahh...benny. If you did watch football or even take notice you would see
> that it is a new phenomenon that Italy is importing defenders. Milan was
> based on a generic back line, and once that disappeared so the problems
> began. In fact there is a direct correlation between having an Italian
> defensive core (Milan and Juve), and the success that comes with it.
> Like the change of forward lines in Italy there is bound to be a
> transition.
The Milan back line under Sacchi were talented defenders who relied on
Baresi raising his right arm and almost immediately after the linesman raising
his flag to defend. Maybe you didn't notice but in 1994 FIFA changed the
offside rule to favour attackers. Since then Italian defenders increasingly
stand around like morons appealing for offside while the forwards run in to
score cheap goals.
> Defences in the Premiership are not good enough. If you look at the
> English performances in Europe this year, last year, and the one before
> that, on a whole, inept defensive performances especially away, cost
> them. Repeat the script for next year....
Going out on away goals or loosing by one goal margins doesn't suggest bad
defending to me especially when you consider two teams (Leicester and
Villa) when out thanks to the cheating by Atletico Madrid.
> Why am I not surprised that these comments sound stupid....
Because like your mate Riffster you don't know a classic striker when you
see one.
> You think greatness gets given and taken away on occasion ? Maradona is
> a modern great !! Van Basten couldnt inspire a much more talented Dutch
> team to even get within smelling distance of a WC, and Maradona was
> much, much more brutally treated by Spanish and Italian defences than
> van Basten was at club level, and also by intl defences. Your opinion is
> only valid to your own emotive self. It matters not how Maradona is
> considered as a player by consensus.
I don't care about the World Cup, I'll watch it but that's about it. As long
as Brazil, Spain, France or Italy don't win I'll be happy.
> Do we say that Bobby Moore was not a great player because West Ham never
He played for West Ham they weren't likely to challenge for the EC were they?
> won a European Champions Cup ? Do we say van Basten and Gullit were
> insignificant beacuse they didnt win WCs...
I don't care about the World Cup.
> My basic point is that you are foolish if you believe that Cole, Dublin,
> Sutton, Owen and Shearer somehow reflect some standard that Ronaldo has
> to look to. They have to look to him. That plodders like Cole are
> prolific in England sums up the defensive strength of the league.
I didn't apply anything of the sort I merely gave these players as examples
of the type of forwards that succeed in the Premiership. Cole has a good
goalscoring record for Man United and Newcastle in Europe, so does Sutton.
> He wasnt IMO, and in the roundup of the tournament even in the top 8
> players in the tourney, and many of these other players are still
Strikers thrive on service, Owen got bugger all and unlike most of the star
players you mention had little experience of playing football at professional
level (unlike Zalayeta, Adailton and co) unless you count reserve games for
Liverpool.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 31 / 49 lines
> From: Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> at Seascape Designs
> Which leads me to the point that if you consider what Ronaldo has done
> and he is only a few years older than Owen, then you begin to understand
> the gap, not only in ability, but in mental fortitude.
Ronaldo has been playing professional football for 5 years, Owen has yet to
complete one
> Ronaldo has been away from home since he was 17.....People seem to
> assess the guy based on the fact that his career is at its peak, when he
> basically is still learning.
Brazilians are used to whoreing themselves in Europe.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 23 / 57 lines
> From: Farhad Shawkat <fs0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> at University of
> Rochester
> Serie A games from 87-90 would rate him as one of the most talented
> players in the world at that time. Also, did you watch the 86 World Cup ?
> His ball skills are still unrivalled, in my opinion.
Leave the ball tricks to seals.
> You say that if Maradona was that good, he would have won more than 2
> scudettos, a UEFA cup and an Italian Cup. Well, which club was he playing
> for ? Inter, Juve, or Milan ? He played for Napoli. How many titles had
> Napoli won in their history ? Do you remember any of their players from
> the Maradona era ? Except for Careca and Di Napoli, maybe Renica and
> Ferrara, and later on, Zola and Alemao. And Ferrara back then certainly
> wasn't half as good as what he is now. Infact, sometimes, he looked pretty
> awful. The fact that Maradona actually led this squad to the scudetto TWICE
> is simply amazing. As well as the UEFA cup, a trophy which Milan, with
> ALL their resources, have never won.
Alemao, Careca, Maradona, Di Napoli, Carnevale and Crippa a team with 6
internationals in their squad. So I guess Maradona played in a shite team,
right? As for the UEFA Cup, Milan were too busy winning the EC. If Milan
won the UEFA Cup 20 times it would still be a mickey mouse trophy.
> While he will never be one of my favourite players, the fact remains that
> I shall never see a player more talented than Maradona. Can you think of a
> better individual performance in a World Cup ? Pele may have won three
> World Cups, but look at the support he had. Vava, Didi, Garrincha,
> Amarildo, then Tostao, Jairzinho, Alberto, etc. Except for Maradona, how
> many greats did Argentina have in 86, or 90 ? I'm not saying he's better
> than Pele, no. Pele was better overall. But as a playmaker, a pure number
> 10, no one I've seen can come close to Maradona.
I don't care about the World Cup and please don't think you're an expert on
the `old greats' after watching a few minutes of footage, unless you're 100
years old.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo - The Benny Theorem of Stri 84 / 102 lines
> From: Paul Mettewie <pan...@ix.netcom.c at The Year of the Dragon
> But your attempts to insist that you do not like him because
> he is not a good striker, scorer, forward, player, dribbler,
> header, finisher, passer (some, all, combinations, derivations,
> blenderized concotions of some or all of the former
> components -- whatever....) have passed from the merely
> ludicrous into the stuff of legend.
When he starts scoring scissor kicks, overhead kicks, volleys and classical
poachers goals in the 6 yard box I'll like him, until them seeing him run
past defenders, round the `keeper and score exactly the same way every week
will continually fail to impress me. Unlike you Riff I've seen him do it
over 100 times and after about the 20th time it gets boring.
> Benny would swoon if the Terminator signed a contract with
> Meewan.
He's a fag.
Max Attar Feingold
On Thu, 16 Apr 98 02:08:49 GMT, Be...@benman.demon.co.uk (Benny)
spoke thusly:
>Who's Tulio? Can't recall seeing him play in one of the top European leagues?
>He's better than Luizao isn't he? You know Luizao, the player you said was
>better than Fowler but he can't even score regulalry in a joke league for a
>joke team like Deportivo.
[...]
Good 'ol Benny, never changes a bit. Makes me feel as if I had
never been gone...
>Cafu is defintely the second best foreign defender in Serie A.
<Max swiftly hunts through Dejanews>
--------------------------
Subject: Re: Premiership 6th Best? : No actually, 7th.
From: Be...@benman.demon.co.uk (Benny)
Date: 1997/08/23
Message-ID: <872341...@benman.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
[...]
Oh dear, first Cafu and now two Spaniards, boy Roma are
desperate.
-----
Subject: Re: ** R. Baggio in the National team - AGAIN !!
From: Be...@benman.demon.co.uk (Benny)
Date: 1997/05/04
Message-ID: <862783...@benman.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.sports.soccer.european,rec.sport.soccer
> 2. Cafu. WC94 champion. Still the best right full-back of the world. Plays
> for Palmeiras and the Brazilian National team. Will play his 2nd WC in 98.
Best right-back in the world my arse! Flopped in Spain, which
shows how good he really is. Not in the same class as Ferrara or
Zanetti or Ze Maria, who has proven himself in Serie A.
--------------------
Heh. Flip.... flop.
>Can't recall seeing many overhead kicks and scissor kicks from Ronaldo.
He doesn't perform circus tricks, Benny, he scores goals. I'm
sure you can appreciate a player like that. :-)
Wheeee, arguing with Benny about Ronaldo. It sure is great to be
back!
Max Attar Feingold
ma...@cornell.edu
mfei...@cs.cornell.edu
http://www.csuglab.cornell.edu/Info/People/mfeingol/
"Our planet is the mental institution of the universe" - Goethe
Kenny Green
Benny wrote:
> How can it put it in a way you will understand. I don't care for the World> Cup or International football for that matter. I'm only interested in the EC and as you know Maradona never won the EC, club football's biggest prize therefore I don't rate Maradona and no matter how many times you say he can bounce the ball off his arse or how many circus tricks he performed he didn't win the EC.
>
I see. Well Benny...end of exchange. Your output is a study into why
some people challenge the fact that man is a thinking evolving creature.
>
> The Milan back line under Sacchi were talented defenders who relied on
> Baresi raising his right arm and almost immediately after the linesman raising his flag to defend. Maybe you didn't notice but in 1994 FIFA changed the offside rule to favour attackers. Since then Italian defenders increasingly stand around like morons appealing for offside while the forwards run in to score cheap goals.
>
Whatever...Benny
> Going out on away goals or loosing by one goal margins doesn't suggest bad> defending to me especially when you consider two teams (Leicester and> Villa) when out thanks to the cheating by Atletico Madrid.
>
Indeed Benny....
>
> Because like your mate Riffster you don't know a classic striker when you see one.
>
Of course Benny
> I don't care about the World Cup, I'll watch it but that's about it. As long as Brazil, Spain, France or Italy don't win I'll be happy.
>
Well said Benny.
> He played for West Ham they weren't likely to challenge for the EC were they?
>
Touche Benny
> > won a European Champions Cup ? Do we say van Basten and Gullit were
> > insignificant beacuse they didnt win WCs...
>
> I don't care about the World Cup.
>
Good One Benny
> I didn't apply anything of the sort I merely gave these players as examples of the type of forwards that succeed in the Premiership. Cole has a good goalscoring record for Man United and Newcastle in Europe, so does Sutton.
>
Great points there Benny!!
> Strikers thrive on service, Owen got bugger all and unlike most of the star> players you mention had little experience of playing football at professional level (unlike Zalayeta, Adailton and co) unless you count reserve games for Liverpool.
>
I see Benny....
Not even Bots are that stupid....
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 20 / 31 lines
> From: "Paul Grave" <pa...@pgrave.demon.co.ukFUKSPAM> at Unknown
> Barca - Ajax - Milan?
At least they were in different countries and it had nothing to do with the
success of the team or lack thereof more on the type of football they played.
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo - The Benny Theorem of Stri 20 / 38 lines
> From: "Paul Grave" <pa...@pgrave.demon.co.ukFUKSPAM> at Unknown
> Does Benny truly believe that Ronoldo isn't a good striker, forward,
> finisher, player etc.? Or is he pulling the piss?
I have never denied that he wasn't a good player, nor have I denied he wasn't
a good forward I deny the claim he is a good finisher. As far as I'm
concerned it doesn't matter how many goals he scores it's how he scores them
and if you still can't figure out why I feel Ronaldo isn't a great finisher
then clearly you don't know the difference between the likes of Linekar,
Van Basten, Inzaghi, Klinsmann and Ronaldo. If after watching the first four
players I have just listed and watching Ronaldo you still can't figure out
what the difference is you're beyond help and don't give a simplistic crap
reply like they all score goals because as I've said before it's not how many
he scores it's how he scores, he's not a classical penalty box striker and to
me a great finisher is a penalty box type forward, a player that can score in
a crowded penalty box by loosing his marker in a flash, a player that relies
on his instinct not his physique. Ronaldo is a run and shoot merchant and I
don't like them so deal with it.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo (Owen = Yanagisawa) 37 / 55 lines
> From: mar...@fc.hp.com (Marcelo Weinberger) at Unknown
> shows in every idiocy you write about circus tricks, agility, and
> assist statistics. And you see, this alleged experts still take the
> character you created (Internet-Benny) seriously. Can you imagine what
> you could have accomplished had you invented a character who actually
> feels soccer in his veins?
How you feel about circus tricks and the World Cup is almost how obsessively
I feel about the EC. I'm not a fan of International football and go out of
my way to distinguish between club football and international football the
problem is you can't appreciate that.
Steve Jones
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> Benny wrote:
>
> > The leading scorer is Sutton, if Shearer had been fit all season I'm sure he'd be top scorer
> >
>
> Sutton is a joke. He is a classic case of Permiership level striker.
Yup, Sutton, Shearer, Lineker, Klinsmann (last time around), Fowler, Owen,
Flo, Dublin all just shite Premiership strikers.
> You
> know...kinda like Dion Dublin...half centre half, half centre forward
> (for those who dont know when either arent in form they are rapidly
> converted into defenders).
Umm so what you have is a striker who when playing badly can still play
at the highest level in defense, some would see that this points to a high
level of skill and judgement in the player and a flexiblity that isn't
often found. But no to you a player who can lead either the front or
back lines is just plain average.
>
>
> > Bollocks. The Premiership is a very physical league, what Owen has achieved in his FIRST full season of football is amazing.
> >
>
> Erm....sorry ? Is that a point I missed ? Owen is amazing because he has
> thrived in England ?
Also scored on his European debute, was one of only two brightspots in the
shambles that was England v Chile (Dublin was the other).
[snip]
>
> > As for Shearer I said he's a great finisher based on his ability to put away > chances.
> >
>
> The same chances he snapped up whilst Blackburn marched forward in
> Europe vs the giants of Widzew Lodz, Rosenborg, and Spartak ? (the only
> team worthy of making a striker work hard).
>
> Shearer is a domestic giant....like Scillaci he has had one good intl
> tournament.
Which makes him 100% on competitions he could have played in, Toto was not
in the reckoning the next time around, Shearer is. Shearer was top scorer
in 100% of the international compeititions he has played in.
[snip]
>
> Defences in the Premiership are not good enough. If you look at the
> English performances in Europe this year, last year, and the one before
> that, on a whole, inept defensive performances especially away, cost
> them. Repeat the script for next year....
Umm so point out the thrashings dished out to English defenses in Europe
this season, Liverpool I recall and.... And who had the second best defensive
record in UEFA WCQ ? If you want to pick on an easy target to critisise in
England pick midfielders, not defenders.
[snip]
>
> Arsenal like most English teams lose in Europe in the away matches,
> because their defences cannot handle the pressure. Had Arsenal been
> playing last night vs Spartak in Moscow on the mess of a pitch, they
> would have complained about it, and succumbed to it.
Ahh argument by supposition and statement, it must be nice to know everything
about football.
>
> As for touting Sutton...who is a classic English centre forward of the
> type that Continental defences lap up, well you can have him, and
> Shearer.
I'm sure that Benny would take the SAS for AC Milan next season, and
equally sure that a fit Shearer would impress the watching Italian
public.
[snip]
>
> Ronaldo is the best forward, striker, guy who sticks the ball in the
> back of the net for his team....in the world. Whether you have severe
> mood swings when he does well (which means your life is one big mood
> swing right now), is of no consequence to how he is regarded.
Okay getting away from the Sutton is average, Shearer is over-rated stuff,
Ronaldo is for me one of the best (and I still don't think he has proved
himself to be the very best) forwards in the game, he doesn't have the
instinct of a Romario or a Shearer but he does have a presence and
an ability on the ball that neither of these can match, he certainly
isn't as good as the hype but he _is_ without doubt one of the best
on planet football, if given a choice of a Wolves strike partnership
I'd take a fit Alan Shearer and Batigol.
--
What I know most surely in the long run, about morality and
obligations, I owe to football" Albert Camus, Novelist, Goalkeeper.
The above opinions rarely reflect my own and never my employers'
Do not add me to mailing lists violations will be billed for time.
esse
Massa Sugano wrote:
> Chris Applegate wrote:
> >
> > Did indeed. Out-qualfiied the Irish in the qualifying competition (No-one
> > remembers this though), topped their group (3 wins out of 3) in the finals, but
> > lost to Argentina (2-1 I think) in the Round of 16, though it was a deserved
> > victory by the Argentines. Not too bad a tournament, IMHO.
>
> So they didn't even make the Quarterfinals. Japan did, losing only in extra time
> to Ghana, which in turn lost only in extra time to the great Uruguayan team.
And the Argies in turn dump the ever so hyped Brazilians 2-0. Who won the
tournament, I forgot. Uruguay ?
> I am not serious at all about the Yanagisawa analogy, but there is indeed a case
> for arguing that Japan was better than England. I bet England didn't have an
> attacking midfielder as good as Shunsuke Nakamura.......
>
Guess again, his name was Danny Murphy. Only if we gave him more playing time
at Anfield.
> (And the Irish kids do seem more impressive in the English leagues.)
>
Compared to whom ?
> Massa Sugano
> (...............)
Chris Raistrick
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:38:50 -0700, Kenny Green
<gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Sutton is a joke. He is a classic case of Permiership level striker. You
>know...kinda like Dion Dublin...half centre half, half centre forward
>(for those who dont know when either arent in form they are rapidly
>converted into defenders).
Sutton was converted to a defender at Blackburn because of the
shortage of defenders not because of his form
Cheers,
Chris
Kenny Green
Steve Jones wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Sutton is a joke. He is a classic case of Permiership level striker.
>
> Flo, Dublin all just shite Premiership strikers.
>
Sutton , Shearer, Fowler, Owen, Flo, and Dublin....Klinsmann has played
two years in England, one in form, his first where he scored goals, and
now when he hsnt done anything. Lineker never played in this era. Flo
hardly ever starts for Chelsea....
Fowler has played against nearly all Liverpools UEFA opponents, and in
nearly every case has disappeared when they played in crucial ties ( was
it the service everyone asks ). Fowler is a very good finisher, but
suffers badly from being one footed for someone who is not talented
enough to not make that a bigger factor than it is. Again thats my
opinion. You might think differently.
Dublin, cmon Steve...really. Do you really believe that any Continental
defence will lose sleep over Dion Dublin ? Be honest. The guy is an
average footballer who has got good heading ability. He has been in the
league long enough for anyone to know that. He is simply playing because
his form has forced Hoddle to pick him when everyone else was either
injured or playing crap. Doesnt make him intl standard.
Sutton. Well I`ve seen Sutton in action against Continental defences,
and he looked plain clumsy. Leagues do throw up these players. Italy had
one in Silenzi a few years ago (who failed to even last at Forest).
These hard working, honest centre forwards who get romanticised till you
actually see them play in a big game. I have watched Sutton and Dublin
all season, and there is nothing really between them. I feel that
Casiraghi for example is another type like that.
I never said Owen is crap. I`ve said he is overrated mainly because
Premiership football and Sky needs something to trumpet. They tried the
Premiership is the best league in the world bit. They have a WC coming
up and Gascoigne may or may not be able to meet expectation, and England
needed a new hero. Owen is no better than at least 20 or 30 other very
good young players out there. He isnt amazing, or incredible or great.
He just has the potential to be a very good player.
>
> Umm so what you have is a striker who when playing badly can still play
> at the highest level in defense, some would see that this points to a high level of skill and judgement in the player and a flexiblity that isn't often found. But no to you a player who can lead either the front or back lines is just plain average.
>
Steve ...think about this carefully. Would Sutton and Dublin play in
defence if they were playing for Manchester Utd ? The fact is that both
Blackburn and Coventry played them in that position when they had no
choice, because the alternative defenders were either injured or so bad.
I dont see how this can be qualified as some versatility, when to me it
actually confirms the standard of Premiership defending (and striking)
that these two guys did the role quite comfortably.
> Also scored on his European debute, was one of only two brightspots in the
> shambles that was England v Chile (Dublin was the other).
> [snip]
Watch that Chile game again. Dublin did nothing. It is one of those new
myths that if someone didnt foul up major that they had a bright match.
Watch the game again.
>
> Which makes him 100% on competitions he could have played in, Toto was not> in the reckoning the next time around, Shearer is. Shearer was top scorer> in 100% of the international compeititions he has played in.
> [snip]
Very true if you want to be purely statistical. Shearer also looked very
very ordinary for his club team in Europe (was it lack of servise once
again ?)
> >
>
> Umm so point out the thrashings dished out to English defenses in Europe this season, Liverpool I recall and.... And who had the second best defensive record in UEFA WCQ ? If you want to pick on an easy target to critisise in England pick midfielders, not defenders.
> [snip]
Its not about easy targets. As for the UEFA WCQ, Scotland had nearly the
best defensive record. Does that map directly that the Scottish teams
have great defences (btw Owen scored against Celtic I remember now...not
to devalue his goal), when the Scottish Premier League regularly
features comedy defensive errors.
English Premiership teams dont get thrashed, but they sure as hell do
not win away often....and they more than often concede a goal at home.
It really shows lack of defensive discipline. Real Madrid are no great
shakes defensively but they still did not concede against Dortmund.
> >
> Ahh argument by supposition and statement, it must be nice to know everything about football.
>
I watched Arsenal in Greece. You could visibly see the defenders and
Viera wilting to the pressure. I mean some of the Greek players were
made to look way better than they actually were, because Arsenal
immediately showed they were uncomfortable with the pitch, and the
crowd.
Now they may mature as a team, but when you consider the back four is
essentially the same as ever, and that Viera is almost always going to
get booked in Europe, Arsenal do not inspire me with confidence. Its not
like they were even like Man Utd losing to a top team. They lost in the
early stages of the UEFA Cup to a talented but no way special Greek team
(Olympiakos and AEK are much better).
>
> I'm sure that Benny would take the SAS for AC Milan next season, and
> equally sure that a fit Shearer would impress the watching Italian
> public.
> [snip]
Thats Benny. If you respect his judgement then thats you. Shearer is
good....but he aint great.
> >
s regarded.
>
> Okay getting away from the Sutton is average, Shearer is over-rated stuff,
> Ronaldo is for me one of the best (and I still don't think he has proved
> himself to be the very best) forwards in the game, he doesn't have the
> instinct of a Romario or a Shearer but he does have a presence and
> an ability on the ball that neither of these can match, he certainly
> isn't as good as the hype but he _is_ without doubt one of the best
> on planet football, if given a choice of a Wolves strike partnership
> I'd take a fit Alan Shearer and Batigol.
>
How do you quantify Instinct ? Do you say that there is less an instinct
from picking up the ball in the middle of the field and running through
to score a goal in a game when nothing has happened, as Ronaldo has done
plenty times, or in poking in the ball on a run to the near post as many
other strikers do more regularly ?
I though Ronaldo was hype too, but when you see how consistently he
scores you begin to realise that he is a burst player. He survives for
that 10 seconds in every game when a defenders concentration drops, and
he almost always lets you pay.
IMO he has more of an instinct than Romario or Shearer and any other
striker in the world. If Shearer picks up a loose ball in the middle of
the field his instinct is to either look to hold up the ball for a wide
player, or to run toward the sidelines and try to hit it off the player
for a corner...Ronaldos instinct is to score. His zone is wider....and
his instinct more natural.
And his goal ratio has survived Brazil, Holland, Spain, and Italy.
Shearer has dominated the English scoring charts and failed with
Blackburn to make any impact in Europe.
As for Romario, his mood can severely disrupt his game (Shearer is
pretty inscrutable). Ronaldo is pretty cold. And again, tell me what 21
year old bar Pele in his time was this prolific. He is like Jordan was
when he first came in to basketball. He actually justifies the hype, but
because he is so hyped we naturally assume he is like all the others who
failed to meet that expectation before.
I live in England, watch the Premiership every chance I get. I just
think it is overrated. A look at the amount of money spent bolstering
the league, coupled with English Domestic clubs performance in Europe,
not just result, but also performance wise, tells me something is wrong.
There are only so many times teams can be unlucky.
Kenny
Rhubarb
Paul Mettewie <pan...@ix.netcom.com>
[ lengthy diatribe from someone analysing themselves in a typically
American fashion deleted ]
> field against one another or watching Arsenal face Chelsea
> or Sao Paulo against Botafogo....it makes one feel a little
> more alive and in the world.
>
> I know you like soccer Benny, I just wonder what part
> of it you love.....
>
> - Riff "Taking you down memory lane..." Ster
>
Riffster, don't dwell on it, just get on with it. I just like watching
as part of a big crowd.
Now, if Ariel or whoever could just give Riffster his post of the
week award he just tried so hard to win.
Steve Jones
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> Steve Jones wrote:
[snip]
>
> Fowler has played against nearly all Liverpools UEFA opponents, and in
> nearly every case has disappeared when they played in crucial ties ( was
> it the service everyone asks ). Fowler is a very good finisher, but
> suffers badly from being one footed for someone who is not talented
> enough to not make that a bigger factor than it is. Again thats my
> opinion. You might think differently.
Who out of interest scored the most goals in European competition last season ?
>
> Dublin, cmon Steve...really. Do you really believe that any Continental
> defence will lose sleep over Dion Dublin ?
Ahh you're suffering from "plays for Coventry must be shite" syndrome.
> Be honest. The guy is an
> average footballer who has got good heading ability.
Okay, OTOH he is a class above every single one of the strikers who have
a chance of representing France, he is twice the player that Ravanelli is
and if you think all he has is ability in the air then you haven't seen
much of him.
> He has been in the
> league long enough for anyone to know that. He is simply playing because
> his form has forced Hoddle to pick him when everyone else was either
> injured or playing crap. Doesnt make him intl standard.
Glenn Hoddle has picked Teddy Sheringham, he isn't international standard,
he hasn't picked Sutton, who is clearly a better player than Sheringham,
Dublin has demonstrated that he is a very effective leader he has taken an
average side to heady heights that leads most Coventry fans groping around
wondering how to check the top half of the table.
>
> Sutton. Well I`ve seen Sutton in action against Continental defences,
> and he looked plain clumsy. Leagues do throw up these players. Italy had
> one in Silenzi a few years ago (who failed to even last at Forest).
> These hard working, honest centre forwards who get romanticised till you
> actually see them play in a big game. I have watched Sutton and Dublin
> all season, and there is nothing really between them.
Umm Sutton did go through a trough as a young player, he has matured however
and "average" players do not go on to be top scorers in years when players
like Denis Bergkamp are fit (unlike the year Sheringham was top scorer when
his total was pitiful). Compare Sutton with Ravanelli, a possible Italian
squad member, or Dublin with Guivarc'h or Trez (or Rav) either of the English
front men will come out (IMO) as being the better for the comparison.
[snip]
> Owen is no better than at least 20 or 30 other very
> good young players out there. He isnt amazing, or incredible or great.
> He just has the potential to be a very good player.
Okay here I disagree, name 20 young players better or equal of Owen. In terms
of players even close to his class then Damien Duff or Robbie Keane may
have a shot, but I'm not kidding myself Owen is a better player than either
of them. Put simply, against Chile he put in _the_ best performance of any
England player on the pitch, he played better in that match than Sherigham
has in 2 years of WCQ.
>
> >
> > Umm so what you have is a striker who when playing badly can still play
> > at the highest level in defense, some would see that this points to a high level of skill and judgement in the player and a flexiblity that isn't often found. But no to you a player who can lead either the front or back lines is just plain average.
> >
>
> Steve ...think about this carefully. Would Sutton and Dublin play in
> defence if they were playing for Manchester Utd ? The fact is that both
> Blackburn and Coventry played them in that position when they had no
> choice, because the alternative defenders were either injured or so bad.
So you've answered you're own question, if ManU had a defending crisis and
the only players flexible enough to fit back there were two strikers then
how does this reflect badly on the striker ?
>
> I dont see how this can be qualified as some versatility, when to me it
> actually confirms the standard of Premiership defending (and striking)
> that these two guys did the role quite comfortably.
Ahhh, so because they are good at playing then therefore the league must
be poor because you rate them as such, nice circular reasoning. Could it
infact be because they read the game very well and are very good at timing
the arrival of the ball (a skill needed at both ends of the pitch).
>
>
> > Also scored on his European debute, was one of only two brightspots in the
> > shambles that was England v Chile (Dublin was the other).
> > [snip]
>
> Watch that Chile game again. Dublin did nothing. It is one of those new
> myths that if someone didnt foul up major that they had a bright match.
> Watch the game again.
Q: Which player won 95% of balls played into him
A: Dion Dublin
Q: Which player held up the ball for the on comming (crap) midfield
A: Dion Dublin
Q: Which player presented Owen with his best chances of the match
A: Dion Dublin
Q: Which player came closest to scoring with headers when competing from
a position of weakness against 2 defenders
A: Dion Dublin.
A better performance than anything Sheringham, Merson et al would be
liable to put in.
>
> >
>
> > Which makes him 100% on competitions he could have played in, Toto was not> in the reckoning the next time around, Shearer is. Shearer was top scorer> in 100% of the international compeititions he has played in.
> > [snip]
>
> Very true if you want to be purely statistical. Shearer also looked very
> very ordinary for his club team in Europe (was it lack of servise once
> again ?)
That and being injured for the games they played this season.....
[snip]
>
> English Premiership teams dont get thrashed, but they sure as hell do
> not win away often....and they more than often concede a goal at home.
> It really shows lack of defensive discipline. Real Madrid are no great
> shakes defensively but they still did not concede against Dortmund.
And Dortmund must be kicking themselves, they were crap at beating a
very poor offside trap. What the hell does not winning (ie not scoring)
have to do with a poor defense ? Yes they don't win away, but they don't
conceed much either.
>
> > >
>
> > Ahh argument by supposition and statement, it must be nice to know everything about football.
> >
>
> I watched Arsenal in Greece. You could visibly see the defenders and
> Viera wilting to the pressure. I mean some of the Greek players were
> made to look way better than they actually were, because Arsenal
> immediately showed they were uncomfortable with the pitch, and the
> crowd.
That was indeed a miserable performance.
[snip]
> > I'm sure that Benny would take the SAS for AC Milan next season, and
> > equally sure that a fit Shearer would impress the watching Italian
> > public.
> > [snip]
>
> Thats Benny. If you respect his judgement then thats you. Shearer is
> good....but he aint great.
What do you want him to do ? Who is better ? IMO Shearer is, when fit,
the best European striker. Unfortunately I think his injuries will put
paid to him demonstrating it consistenly, but iff fit for the whole
of the WC then I expect a show from Mr Shearer to make the world take note.
>
> > >
> s regarded.
> >
> > Okay getting away from the Sutton is average, Shearer is over-rated stuff,
> > Ronaldo is for me one of the best (and I still don't think he has proved
> > himself to be the very best) forwards in the game, he doesn't have the
> > instinct of a Romario or a Shearer but he does have a presence and
> > an ability on the ball that neither of these can match, he certainly
> > isn't as good as the hype but he _is_ without doubt one of the best
> > on planet football, if given a choice of a Wolves strike partnership
> > I'd take a fit Alan Shearer and Batigol.
> >
>
> How do you quantify Instinct ? Do you say that there is less an instinct
> from picking up the ball in the middle of the field and running through
> to score a goal in a game when nothing has happened, as Ronaldo has done
> plenty times, or in poking in the ball on a run to the near post as many
> other strikers do more regularly ?
Ahh, I agree that Ronaldo does have the instict required to run with the ball,
he has the instictive control and balance required, but to devalue those short
strikes is to (IMO) misunderstand just how hard they are. Most goals are
not scored from near post pokes, most would appear to be scored from a
players being given space by a defensive error or good through ball.
Gerd Muller and Lineker, and to a lesser extent Shearer and Romario have
something different that Ronaldo lacks, the ability inside the box to
create space where none exists, this is not a talent to be learnt, this
isn't just running aimlessly at the near post, this is something different,
a player like Ronaldo would work brilliantly with such a player (Romario
for instance) because where Ronaldo is weak Romario is strong, for
example in the last WC there was a corner in which Romario gained a
yard of space by the simple move of drifting back and forward just slightly
(against Sweden) thus scoring a "simple" tap-in.
>
> I though Ronaldo was hype too, but when you see how consistently he
> scores you begin to realise that he is a burst player. He survives for
> that 10 seconds in every game when a defenders concentration drops, and
> he almost always lets you pay.
I'd disagree here, Ronaldo is a very consitent player (unlike Romario) he
works all game to create that opening, and when it comes yes he does
punish it.
>
> IMO he has more of an instinct than Romario or Shearer and any other
> striker in the world. If Shearer picks up a loose ball in the middle of
> the field his instinct is to either look to hold up the ball for a wide
> player, or to run toward the sidelines and try to hit it off the player
> for a corner...Ronaldos instinct is to score. His zone is wider....and
> his instinct more natural.
And yet when it comes to the six yard box Romario is by far the better player,
yes Ronaldo's instict is to drive for goal, Romario and Shearer's is to shoot.
From 50 yards this makes Ronaldo better, from 10 the edge is for Romario and
Shearer.
>
> And his goal ratio has survived Brazil, Holland, Spain, and Italy.
> Shearer has dominated the English scoring charts and failed with
> Blackburn to make any impact in Europe.
Isn't Ronaldo's average dropping from his PSV and Brazil days ? Shearer
had one shot at Europe and flopped.
>
> As for Romario, his mood can severely disrupt his game (Shearer is
> pretty inscrutable). Ronaldo is pretty cold. And again, tell me what 21
> year old bar Pele in his time was this prolific. He is like Jordan was
> when he first came in to basketball. He actually justifies the hype, but
> because he is so hyped we naturally assume he is like all the others who
> failed to meet that expectation before.
Nobody justifies this level of hype, even if Ronaldo were the re-incartnation
of god it would be excessive, "World's best player" he _may_ become the
best player in the world but right now there are more experienced players
who are actually better, he could become the very best but right now he
is still learning his trade. He is the world's best prospect.
>
> I live in England, watch the Premiership every chance I get. I just
> think it is overrated. A look at the amount of money spent bolstering
> the league, coupled with English Domestic clubs performance in Europe,
> not just result, but also performance wise, tells me something is wrong.
> There are only so many times teams can be unlucky.
There are still problems with the English game, but the prospects comming
through now are much better than those who came through 5 years ago. For
me the biggest problem with English teams is that we have forgotten the
midfield, good forwards, good defenders, but the midfielders are poor.
Take ManU, Giggs is brilliant, but beyond that there is Beckham who is
okay but not in the league of a Hoddle or Waddle and then.... well
Nicky Butt sums up the problems.
Michael Winnett
In article <3534FE...@mail.globalnet.co.uk>, Kenny Green (gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk) writes:
>
>Arsenal dominated only in one half of a four half tie. They dominated at
>Highbury in the first half. They should have lost by more in Greece, and
>Bergkamp missed that tie because of his travel fear.
>
>Arsenal like most English teams lose in Europe in the away matches,
>because their defences cannot handle the pressure. Had Arsenal been
>playing last night vs Spartak in Moscow on the mess of a pitch, they
>would have complained about it, and succumbed to it.
Hmm, but Arsenal won the cup winners cup final, beating Parma, then
went back to the cup final the next year, (beating Sampdoria on the
way) missing their top striker and were only beaten by the flukiest
goal of all time.
The Greeks beat us on away goals, though their goal was peppered
throughout the second leg, and if we have to look for an excuse, it
would be that we had a new manager, and several new players, and we
really weren't playing as a cohesive unit. That seems fairly
understandable to me. I won't use the players we had missing
through injury as an excuse, but you should understand that it
takes time for a team to adjust to a new system, expecially when
the new manager seeks to transform the entire method and attitude
of the team.
Most fans (apart from the blinkered) will recognise that Arsenal
play a different game to that played under George Graham or Bruce
Rioch. We are now playing as a team, and we shall hope to give a
good account of ourselves in the champions league next year, in
which case, with our record against Italian sides, Italian teams
would do well to try and avoid us:-)
Mick
ARSENAL MAILING LIST HOMEPAGE
http://www.satchmo.win-uk.net/arsehome
Kenny Green
Steve Jones wrote:
>
> Who out of interest scored the most goals in European competition last season ?
>
Early round scores...still couldnt do it when it mattered.
>
> Ahh you're suffering from "plays for Coventry must be shite" syndrome.
>
I`ve seen Coventry twice this season...live.
> Okay, OTOH he is a class above every single one of the strikers who have a chance of representing France, he is twice the player that Ravanelli is and if you think all he has is ability in the air then you haven't seen much of him.
>
Ravanelli is no great, but Dublin still isnt a big match player (then
again what big matches has he played in). You are confusing a rich vein
of form with class. Dublin is an ordinary big forward with average ball
skills and his strength is in the air. Even Coventry fans acknowledge
that....
>
> Glenn Hoddle has picked Teddy Sheringham, he isn't international standard, he hasn't picked Sutton, who is clearly a better player than Sheringham, Dublin has demonstrated that he is a very effective leader he has taken an average side to heady heights that leads most Coventry fans groping around wondering how to check the top half of the table.
>
You think Dublin alone did that that ? Why not bring in Burrows and
Huckerby as well. The fact is that Dublin has been in this league long
enough and has not been ever regarded as a `class` striker. He doesnt
suddenly metamorphose into one.
Hoddle picks Sheringham because he likes how he and Shearer play off
each other. Thats his decision. Sutton IMO presents Hoddle with a
tacticaL change that he doesnt want, and coupled with the problems he
has ie...Sutton not playing the B games..then there you have it. You
might think he may do England proud, but the WC will not be poorer
because Sutton is at home...
> Umm Sutton did go through a trough as a young player, he has matured however and "average" players do not go on to be top scorers in years when players like Denis Bergkamp are fit (unlike the year Sheringham was top scorer when his total was pitiful). Compare Sutton with Ravanelli, a possible Italian squad member, or Dublin with Guivarc'h or Trez (or Rav) either of the English front men will come out (IMO) as being the better for the comparison.
> [snip]
>
Firstly Bergkamp has not been a prolific scorer since probably his Ajax
days. He plays off the stiker alot, and does his fair share. Secondly
Bergkamp missed alot of games this season.
It is indicative of the league IMO that Dublin and Sutton do so well.
>
> Okay here I disagree, name 20 young players better or equal of Owen>>
De La Pena (SP)
Zalayeta (URU)
Olivera (URU)
Pellegrin (URU)
Cambiasso(ARG)
Babandinga (NIG)
Tomba (Camerounian)
Anelka (FRA)
Trezeguet (FRA)
Riquelme (ARG)
Jose Deus (SP)
Adailton (Bra)
Alex (Bra)
Pedrinho (Bra)
Peter Ofori-Quaye (Ghana)
Henry (FRA)
Aimar (Arg)
Roy Mackaay (Hol)
I have ommitted 1 Dutch player who I cant remember offhand. who plays
for Feyenoord and was injured when they played Man Utd.
This is a list just from immediate memory. I`m sure if I looked at some
tapes, and looked through some recent youth archives i`d find others.
Some of the guys dont play same position as Owen...but i`d take most of
them on that list ahead of him anyday.
> > >
> > > Umm so what you have is a striker who when playing badly can still play at the highest level in defense, some would see that this points to a high level of skill and judgement in the player and a flexiblity that isn't often found. But no to you a player who can lead either the front or back lines is just plain average.
> > >
You are saying that Dublin and Sutton are so talented ? I am pointing
out that there is nothing about these guys that indicate that they are
anything special. That they have been entrusted to this role, and
succeeded, show the poverty of the English Premiership stikers more than
their versatile capabilities. You think they would play Sutton and
Dublin at the back vs a European team ?
>
> So you've answered you're own question, if ManU had a defending crisis and the only players flexible enough to fit back there were two strikers then how does this reflect badly on the striker ?
>
Sheesh.....The fact is...whether Dublin or Sutton can defend great (and
neither can), is incidental as to whether they are good strikers or
not...very true. I am saying it proves how bad strikers are in the
Premiership when two guys who are not exactly great in their specialist
role, can suddenly play defence and not be routinely punished. In most
other top leagues they`d be history. If you consider them good
defenders, then that is an indictment.
> >
>
> Ahhh, so because they are good at playing then therefore the league must be poor because you rate them as such, nice circular reasoning. Could it infact be because they read the game very well and are very good at timing the arrival of the ball (a skill needed at both ends of the pitch).
>
Steve....I would love it if you were speaking from a definitive point of
view, but right here you are supposing that they could be that good.
Could it be that their timing is good ? Sutton played in defence when he
could time a ball into the goal from a metre out, and was recommended to
see a shrink !
> >
> >
> Q: Which player won 95% of balls played into him
> A: Dion Dublin
>
if they are played in the air 95% of the time against a pretty small
Chilean defence then you can claim this as a victory every time.
> Q: Which player held up the ball for the on comming (crap) midfield
> A: Dion Dublin
>
Is Owen going to hold up the ball ? Is that an attribute that makes
Dublin an intl class player ?
> Q: Which player presented Owen with his best chances of the match
> A: Dion Dublin
>
Seeing that he played up front with him, what were the odds on that.
> Q: Which player came closest to scoring with headers when competing from a position of weakness against 2 defenders
> A: Dion Dublin.
>
Thats his strength. Kevin Francis could have done two of the four things
you list there, and he isnt an intl class striker.
> And Dortmund must be kicking themselves, they were crap at beating a
> very poor offside trap. What the hell does not winning (ie not scoring)
> have to do with a poor defense ? Yes they don't win away, but they don't conceed much either.
>
Dortmund scored home and away vs Man Utd....the best team in England
over the last 4 seasons. Real have a poor defence....true. Dortmund
failed to score vs real ...home and away.
>
> That was indeed a miserable performance.
> [snip]
>
It`ll be interesting to see Arsenal in the EC next year. One thing is
that Highburys size will help them. European teams dont seem to like
playing on small pitches. Highbury isnt small...but its smaller than
most.
> What do you want him to do ? Who is better ? IMO Shearer is, when fit,
> the best European striker. Unfortunately I think his injuries will put
> paid to him demonstrating it consistenly, but iff fit for the whole
> of the WC then I expect a show from Mr Shearer to make the world take note.
>
We shall indeed see. I have put a bet on England to not make the second
round. Got great odds too. And though I think they might, it wouldnt
surprise me if they lose out to Colombia and Romania.
I agree with a good deal of the rest except that you must realise that
Ronaldos goals involve so much energy that it is amazing that he scores
at that ratio. Thats amazing. And yes he is the worlds best player.
Put him at Man utd, and with the side they played against Monaco...they
would have won....no matter who else was missing.
Put him at Dortmund Ditto.
There is no other intl football player who so instantly affects his
teams capability like Ronaldo.
There arent any better players. Might be playmakers, dribblers,
crossers, headers of the ball....but he is the most desribale player in
the world....Like Jordan has been for years in the NBA (without being
the best shooter, dunker etc)
Kenny
Kenny Green
Michael Winnett wrote:
>
> Hmm, but Arsenal won the cup winners cup final, beating Parma, then
> went back to the cup final the next year, (beating Sampdoria on the
> way) missing their top striker and were only beaten by the flukiest
> goal of all time.
>
That victory over Parma was a Tactical victory for graham, but noone
could claim that Parma were outplayed. It was a great victory that
season though.
> Most fans (apart from the blinkered) will recognise that Arsenal
> play a different game to that played under George Graham or Bruce
> Rioch. We are now playing as a team, and we shall hope to give a
> good account of ourselves in the champions league next year, in
> which case, with our record against Italian sides, Italian teams
> would do well to try and avoid us:-)
>
Well call me blinkered. The back four is essentially the same, and have
played in the same style as in the past. Viera and pettit are good, but
add no real creativity to the midfield (Arsenals weakness), and Bergkamp
still has to prove that he is as good as he is at Premiership level,
when he treads foreign turf.
Arsenal are still a Work in progress...which is promising, but apart
from the recent blackburn goal storm, I dont see much difference
defensively between this team and Grahams, and that is where Arsenals
strength lies.
IMO Viera will prove a liability both to Arsenal, and if he plays for
France for his tendency to give away freekicks. In this age these are
costly.
Kenny
Steve Jones
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> Steve Jones wrote:
[snip]
>
> > Okay, OTOH he is a class above every single one of the strikers who have a chance of representing France, he is twice the player that Ravanelli is and if you think all he has is ability in the air then you haven't seen much of him.
> >
>
> Ravanelli is no great, but Dublin still isnt a big match player (then
> again what big matches has he played in). You are confusing a rich vein
> of form with class. Dublin is an ordinary big forward with average ball
> skills and his strength is in the air. Even Coventry fans acknowledge
> that....
He is still a damned sight better than Ravanelli, who is (allegedly) one
of the player in contension for an Italian team spot, thus England can't
exactly be too short of strikers when Dublin probably around the 6th or
7th (Shearer, Fowler, Owen, Sutton, Wright, Scholes) best. And he'd be
straight into the French squad without a question.
>
> >
> > Glenn Hoddle has picked Teddy Sheringham, he isn't international standard, he hasn't picked Sutton, who is clearly a better player than Sheringham, Dublin has demonstrated that he is a very effective leader he has taken an average side to heady heights that leads most Coventry fans groping around wondering how to check the top half of the table.
> >
>
> You think Dublin alone did that that ? Why not bring in Burrows and
> Huckerby as well. The fact is that Dublin has been in this league long
> enough and has not been ever regarded as a `class` striker. He doesnt
> suddenly metamorphose into one.
Err ? You think that Alex Ferguson thinks he was shite ? Dublin went
to ManU because his potential was clear, he then promptly got injured
then in came Canto... well and the rest is history. Dublin has widely
been regarded as being a class striker. Also Huckerby was put into the
England B squad and performed rather well according to accounts outside
of the London "Paul Merson" Media.
>
> Hoddle picks Sheringham because he likes how he and Shearer play off
> each other. Thats his decision. Sutton IMO presents Hoddle with a
> tacticaL change that he doesnt want, and coupled with the problems he
> has ie...Sutton not playing the B games..then there you have it. You
> might think he may do England proud, but the WC will not be poorer
> because Sutton is at home...
It will be if Sheringham plays for England, Sheringham _doesn't_ play well
off Shearer, at least no better than _any_ other player would and a lot
less than many would. England will be poorer if Sutton is at home, whether
that effects the WC however is open to question.
>
>
>
> > Umm Sutton did go through a trough as a young player, he has matured however and "average" players do not go on to be top scorers in years when players like Denis Bergkamp are fit (unlike the year Sheringham was top scorer when his total was pitiful). Compare Sutton with Ravanelli, a possible Italian squad member, or Dublin with Guivarc'h or Trez (or Rav) either of the English front men will come out (IMO) as being the better for the comparison.
> > [snip]
> >
>
> Firstly Bergkamp has not been a prolific scorer since probably his Ajax
> days. He plays off the stiker alot, and does his fair share. Secondly
> Bergkamp missed alot of games this season.
>
> It is indicative of the league IMO that Dublin and Sutton do so well.
So lets get this straight, you feel that Dublin and Sutton are average,
therefore the league must be average if they do well. This is pure
circular reasoning, it can't be argued with because in itself it presents
nothing.
>
>
> >
> > Okay here I disagree, name 20 young players better or equal of Owen>>
>
Not sure who all of these are, but....
> De La Pena (SP)
A fine fine player, slightly older than Owen IRC and not IMO a finer one.
> Zalayeta (URU)
> Olivera (URU)
> Pellegrin (URU)
> Cambiasso(ARG)
> Babandinga (NIG)
> Tomba (Camerounian)
> Anelka (FRA)
Not IMO,
> Trezeguet (FRA)
Absolutely not.
> Riquelme (ARG)
> Jose Deus (SP)
> Adailton (Bra)
> Alex (Bra)
> Pedrinho (Bra)
> Peter Ofori-Quaye (Ghana)
> Henry (FRA)
Not even close. He isn't even a regular in the Monaco side.
> Aimar (Arg)
> Roy Mackaay (Hol)
>
>
> I have ommitted 1 Dutch player who I cant remember offhand. who plays
> for Feyenoord and was injured when they played Man Utd.
Out of interest what has each of these done to deserve such adulation,
how much have they scored and where are they currently playing ?
>
> This is a list just from immediate memory. I`m sure if I looked at some
> tapes, and looked through some recent youth archives i`d find others.
My problem here is that I've only seen a few from the list, and the two
from Monaco can certainly IMO be counted out of the reconing, firstly they
are older than Owen, and secondly they don't come close in terms of class,
and I've seen _alot_ of them this season. Only Trez has a real chance
of being in the French squad for France, and his performance in the French
League is certainly not superiour to Owens.
>
> Some of the guys dont play same position as Owen...but i`d take most of
> them on that list ahead of him anyday.
This could be because you automatically assume anyone in the Prem is average.
>
> > > >
> > > > Umm so what you have is a striker who when playing badly can still play at the highest level in defense, some would see that this points to a high level of skill and judgement in the player and a flexiblity that isn't often found. But no to you a player who can lead either the front or back lines is just plain average.
> > > >
>
> You are saying that Dublin and Sutton are so talented ? I am pointing
> out that there is nothing about these guys that indicate that they are
> anything special. That they have been entrusted to this role, and
> succeeded, show the poverty of the English Premiership stikers more than
> their versatile capabilities. You think they would play Sutton and
> Dublin at the back vs a European team ?
IFF they had the injuries, otherwise of course not. Do you think John Barnes
would be played as a striker in a European game, Newcastle did it this season.
Would ManU choose to play without Giggs ? Would they play Pallister upfront ?
They've done both this season because of injuries or tactical decisions.
>
> >
> > So you've answered you're own question, if ManU had a defending crisis and the only players flexible enough to fit back there were two strikers then how does this reflect badly on the striker ?
> >
>
> Sheesh.....The fact is...whether Dublin or Sutton can defend great (and
> neither can), is incidental as to whether they are good strikers or
> not...very true. I am saying it proves how bad strikers are in the
> Premiership when two guys who are not exactly great in their specialist
> role, can suddenly play defence and not be routinely punished. In most
> other top leagues they`d be history. If you consider them good
> defenders, then that is an indictment.
Ummm, George Best was also a fantastic defender. Total Football ring a bell ?
There are some players who cannot move and yet are great at their position,
Shearer, Linker, Muller, Zola being examples, there also other players who
can move around alot, Phil Neville isn't a poorer player because he can
play on either wing, in defense or central midfield. Zidane isn't a poorer
player because he can play right infront of the defense as a libero or as
part of a striking duo. Neither Dublin nor Sutton are the best defenders
around, but equally neither is useless in defense this cannot prove anything
about their striking abilities. For other examples of flexible international
players look at Bruno N'Gotty or indeed almost all of the French team each
is pretty flexible about their attacking/defensive roles.
> > >
>
> >
> > Ahhh, so because they are good at playing then therefore the league must be poor because you rate them as such, nice circular reasoning. Could it infact be because they read the game very well and are very good at timing the arrival of the ball (a skill needed at both ends of the pitch).
> >
>
> Steve....I would love it if you were speaking from a definitive point of
> view, but right here you are supposing that they could be that good.
> Could it be that their timing is good ? Sutton played in defence when he
> could time a ball into the goal from a metre out, and was recommended to
> see a shrink !
> > >
> > >
>
> > Q: Which player won 95% of balls played into him
> > A: Dion Dublin
> >
>
> if they are played in the air 95% of the time against a pretty small
> Chilean defence then you can claim this as a victory every time.
Oh so the Chileans were midgets, must have missed that. The fact remains
that he did win those balls, and not just those played in the air, he also
came back into midfield quite a bit to help out the completly ineffectual
midfield.
>
> > Q: Which player held up the ball for the on comming (crap) midfield
> > A: Dion Dublin
> >
> Is Owen going to hold up the ball ? Is that an attribute that makes
> Dublin an intl class player ?
It is _one_ of them. Its amazing how players manage to have more
than one ability you know. And yes Owen was able to hold up the ball
as well.
>
> > Q: Which player presented Owen with his best chances of the match
> > A: Dion Dublin
> >
>
> Seeing that he played up front with him, what were the odds on that.
But if he is crap with his feet how did he manage to make such a pass ?
>
> > Q: Which player came closest to scoring with headers when competing from a position of weakness against 2 defenders
> > A: Dion Dublin.
> >
>
> Thats his strength. Kevin Francis could have done two of the four things
> you list there, and he isnt an intl class striker.
Bollocks, I've seen Francis play and his ability in the air is perfect
as long as he doesn't actually have to move.
>
>
>
> > And Dortmund must be kicking themselves, they were crap at beating a
> > very poor offside trap. What the hell does not winning (ie not scoring)
> > have to do with a poor defense ? Yes they don't win away, but they don't conceed much either.
> >
> Dortmund scored home and away vs Man Utd....the best team in England
> over the last 4 seasons. Real have a poor defence....true. Dortmund
> failed to score vs real ...home and away.
So then Dortmund must be shite because they failed to score home and away
and also conceeded two away goals....
[snip]
>
> We shall indeed see. I have put a bet on England to not make the second
> round. Got great odds too. And though I think they might, it wouldnt
> surprise me if they lose out to Colombia and Romania.
Ahhh... fair enough, but there is a reason you got great odds....
>
> I agree with a good deal of the rest except that you must realise that
> Ronaldos goals involve so much energy that it is amazing that he scores
> at that ratio. Thats amazing. And yes he is the worlds best player.
IYO, I'd place Batigol above him for starters, Boksic could have a
claim, and IMO so could a fit Shearer, right now Ronaldo is the best
young player around, but he still has quite abit to learn, not much mind.
>
> Put him at Man utd, and with the side they played against Monaco...they
> would have won....no matter who else was missing.
Put Giggs in the side that played against Monaco and they would have won.
>
> Put him at Dortmund Ditto.
Wouldn't bet on that.
>
> There is no other intl football player who so instantly affects his
> teams capability like Ronaldo.
We shall see in the coming WC.
>
> There arent any better players. Might be playmakers, dribblers,
> crossers, headers of the ball....but he is the most desribale player in
> the world....Like Jordan has been for years in the NBA (without being
> the best shooter, dunker etc)
Desirable is an interesting concept, Jordan is without question the best
over the years in the NBA because of his scoring and winning, Ronaldo
hasn't actually _won_ all that much, and he isn't the best scorer in
his league.
And anyone who pushes him as the next Pele clearly hasn't seen what Pele
had done by his age.
esse
Kenny Green wrote:
> That victory over Parma was a Tactical victory for graham, but noone
> could claim that Parma were outplayed. It was a great victory that
> season though.
>
I count that win a bit lucky. Smith scored out of nothing, Tino hit the
goal post with Seaman beaten.
> Well call me blinkered. The back four is essentially the same, and have
> played in the same style as in the past. Viera and pettit are good, but
> add no real creativity to the midfield (Arsenals weakness)
Not at the current moment.
> and Bergkamp
> still has to prove that he is as good as he is at Premiership level,
> when he treads foreign turf.
>
Havesn't he already done that ? All those years with Ajax. All those
games with The Netherland. Where've ya been ?
> Arsenal are still a Work in progress...which is promising, but apart
> from the recent blackburn goal storm, I dont see much difference
> defensively between this team and Grahams, and that is where Arsenals
> strength lies.
Ooh, what a statistical troll. Because of all those one-nils to the Arse
?
Paul Grave
Benny wrote in message <892708...@benman.demon.co.uk>...
>I have never denied that he wasn't a good player, nor have I denied he
wasn't
>a good forward I deny the claim he is a good finisher. As far as I'm
>concerned it doesn't matter how many goals he scores it's how he scores
them
>and if you still can't figure out why I feel Ronaldo isn't a great finisher
>then clearly you don't know the difference between the likes of Linekar,
>Van Basten, Inzaghi, Klinsmann and Ronaldo. If after watching the first
four
Tell me, in the history of the game of football, when has it ever matter how
a goal is scored?
Tell how you define "finisher"?
I was under the impression that a "finisher" comes from "finishing" a team
manoeuvre by putting the ball in the net?
Chris Raistrick
On 15 Apr 1998 20:00:35 -0400, kca...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin
Cabral) wrote:
>BTW, I think Rhubarb misunderstood my parody of Benny-thought entirely.
>The only weird stuff coming out of this thread is originating from Ingerland.
Do us a favour.
Please don't associate Benny with England. He's a wannabe Italian
with a gloryhunting Milan fetish.
He can't stand Ronaldo because Ronaldo played in Spain and he can't
accept that many of the best players in the Italian league were bought
from Spanish clubs.
He's probably loving this thread because you are attacking English
Football, which he couldn't care less about.
BTW You could always continue the thread in German or Spanish as,
reputedly, he can follow their commentaries.
Vaya, Benny segamos asi?
Cheers,
Chris
Paul Mettewie
Rhubarb wrote:
> Riffster, don't dwell on it, just get on with it. I just like watching
> as part of a big crowd.
It's simple Rhuby.......
Don't like the style -- don't read the post.
> Now, if Ariel or whoever could just give Riffster his post of the
> week award he just tried so hard to win.
Wow -- I am cut to the quick.
- Riff "Trying so hard not to laugh" Ster
Luiz M. Franca-Neto
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Paul Grave wrote:
> Benny wrote in message <892708...@benman.demon.co.uk>...
> >I have never denied that he wasn't a good player, nor have I denied he
> wasn't
> >a good forward I deny the claim he is a good finisher.
Benny, you've never played soccer yourself, have you?
For the untrained-eye, when Pele, Maradona (ok, I'll concede!),
Ronaldo, and some others play, soccer looks something easy to play.
That's because those guys are soccer virtuoses, dear Benny! It's not a job
for any kick-n-rush addicted at all, my dear!
As for the goals using scissors kick, etc, etc, you should remind
yourself even Marcelo Balboa (US) can do it ... However, entering the
defense, carring the ball *underneath* (not ahead as a hockey player, as
many lacking skills European to-be-dribblers use to do) is a
job very seldomly you find a player able to perform with elegance. It's
not by accident that Ronaldo was elected twice FIFA player of the year
with a huge margin to the second player (R. Carlos) by means of the vote
sof more than 100 coachs.
And, as bad at it sounds to you, Ronaldo is heading for the FIFA player of
the year "nomination" one more time... (I guess you are just torturing
yoyurself while trying to go aginst the blatantly superiority of Ronaldo
to any other player at his position right now. Make yourself a favor: get
real!)
Cheers!
Luiz Franca
fra...@leland.stanford.edu
Kareem Elwakil
You hit the nail right on the head. Benny is always talking about first
time strikes and all that other crap. In order to first time strike - you
need a near perfect pass from your teamate. Ronaldo, unlike just about
every other forward in the world, needs absolutely NO pass or ANYTHING from
his teamates to score. Not to say that the Inter players do nothing,
because they definitely make his job easier, but he can just score when
there is no chance at all. THAT is a great player. Just like Luiz is
saying, if they were to vote for another World Player of the Year right now
for the year of 1998 (so far), Ronaldo would win it again. Benny, if you
can look at some of Ronaldo's goals from the past few games, especially his
second against Spartak, and tell me that there was any type of chance
involved, than you must have a serious problem. Anybody who has ever played
football knows how difficult it is to dribble through defenders as if they
were statues. And that's what he made the Spartak defenders look like -
statues. They stood there, almost in awe, as he crossed over'd the keeper
and put Inter into winning position. But what makes him so incredible is
his ability to control the ball at FULL SPEED - a true sign of a great
player. And he's been improving, too. Of all the players I have ever seen
in the history of football, I think Ronaldo has the potential to be the
greatest. As of this year, Ronaldo has been scoring free kicks, something
which he didn't do at Barca or PSV or Brasil. Imagine next year - what will
he do next??? And with the world cup coming up, I have heard Ronaldo say he
wants to win it more than anything else. Like Bergomi says, if he wants to
win, he wins. PERIOD. As of now, Ronaldo is the best player in the world
without a damn doubt. I don't think anyone comes close to him, to be
honest. I remmember a few months ago, people were telling me that so and so
is better than Ronaldo (I've heard them all - bati, del piero, ect...).
There is no comparison. Ronaldo is the best, and, he's already well on his
way to the hall of fame.
Moratti about Ronaldo: " There are no more adjectives to describe this
player"
,Kareem
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo (Owen = Yanagisawa) 21 / 29 lines
> From: "Paul Grave" <pa...@pgrave.demon.co.ukFUKSPAM> at Unknown
> Like Leonardo?
If you're referring Leonardo going to the J-League yes but the transfer to
Milan? He had a chance to join one of the greatest clubs in the history of
the game or stay at PSG, tough choice.
Re : Anelka
> And we gave him away for free, what nice guys we are. I can laugh about it
> now :-(
Bollocks, last year everyone was having orgasms about Anelka, complaining
about Arsenal stealing him and now you can laugh about it? Please. He's a
gifted player with massive potential. Arsenal got Anelka for free and PSG
paid Milan several million for choker Simone, I reckon Arsenal and Milan got
the best deal.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 33 / 84 lines
> From: ma...@cornell.edu (Max Attar Feingold) at Cornell University
> Good 'ol Benny, never changes a bit. Makes me feel as if I had
> never been gone...
<Max swiftly hunts through Dejanews>
What he did in Brazil doesn't count. He's proven himself in Europe.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo - The Benny Theorem of Stri 42 / 111 lines
> From: Paul Mettewie <pan...@ix.netcom.c at The Year of the Dragon
> Benny -What YOU don't seem to appreciate is that some people happento like
> just plain soccer, be it club, international or national levels.
And to say Maradona is one of the greatest ever players in Serie A is as
equally stupid as saying Van Basten was one of the best players in the 1990
World Cup. There is a big difference between club and international football.
In international football a player is eternally judged for his performances
during 4 weeks every 4 years in club football he is judged on his
achievements during his career.
> corner because your world can't let this ray of Brasiliero
> sunshine in.....pity. Your loss.
He bores the piss out of me. Same shit different week.
> That you cannot do so used to make me sad, now it just makes
> me shake my head.
The fact that you can't see the difference between a forward like Ronaldo
and a forward like Van Basten, Linekar, Klinsman, Inzaghi and even Salas,
the fact that you don't appreciate the masters of the penalty box and the
wonderful goals they scored while at the same time drool over Ronaldo
`same goal every week' makes me shake my head.
> I know it isn't Marcelo that is missing out on the game (well,
> outside of the fact that Uruguay is leaking good players faster
> than the Titanic leaked water....) I know it is *you* Benny. To be
Stelle down, you have Recoba, Zalayeta and one more, forgot his name,
Pellegrin or something and Uruguay are all of a sudden the best producers of
good players?
> who wants spectacle. In the USA those types watch professional
> wrestling, in Europe I guess they just flick on the telly and watch
> the "Champion's League." Not bad when one also pulls for a team
> in their local neighborhood or section or town or city. But when
> that is ALL that defines soccer for them, hmmmm.....makes me
> think that *you* are the victim of hype, not us Ronaldinho admirers.
To me it is the pinnacle of football. The league champions of Europe battle
for to be the Champions of champions. The greats that have won this cup in
the past is a who's who or European football. Who remembers the greats of
the UEFA Cup or the CWC? To me next month it's either Juve 3 or Real Madrid
7, it's Milan either 1 EC behind Real Madrid or 2 behind Real Madrid.
That's how I see it.
> moments (you call them "circus tricks") that make us realize why
> we love this game. Sometimes you just appreciate grit and
Juggling balls and making pretty patterns in midfield doesn't win you
matches. For all the circus tricks by Zidane, Inzaghi in the second half
of the season has created more goals by simply holding up the ball in the
box and playing others in. Circus tricks are good if they're effective,
generally they aren't.
> Heck, I still remember the time *I* chipped a ball over a keeper
> in a practice game 25 years ago! Or that time I tied a game
And I remember scoring a left foot half-volley and a hat-trick by doing a
Simone i.e. turn and shoot first time, and I remember watching some
twat do lots of circus tricks with the ball and dribble past defenders and
score. Then I marked him, I stuck to him like a fly on shit, got in his
face, tackled him hard (but fair) and he didn't score while I was on him and
I did that several times to players of his ilk and then my shins packed up.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 30 / 207 lines
> From: Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> at Seascape Designs
> Sutton , Shearer, Fowler, Owen, Flo, and Dublin....Klinsmann has played
> two years in England, one in form, his first where he scored goals, and
> now when he hsnt done anything. Lineker never played in this era. Flo
> hardly ever starts for Chelsea....
Pay attention I said Klinsman last time around. Who cares which era Linekar
played in, he was a classical English, Johnny on the spot as Bobby Robson
calls them centre forward. Flo is IMO World Class.
> Fowler has played against nearly all Liverpools UEFA opponents, and in
> nearly every case has disappeared when they played in crucial ties ( was
That must be why he was top scorer in last year's CWC. That must also explain
why a crap English forwards like Cole and Wright have good goalscoring
records in European competition.
> Dublin, cmon Steve...really. Do you really believe that any Continental
> defence will lose sleep over Dion Dublin ? Be honest. The guy is an
That must explain why defenders find marking Bierhoff so easy.
> Sutton. Well I`ve seen Sutton in action against Continental defences,
> and he looked plain clumsy. Leagues do throw up these players. Italy had
Sutton against continental defenders? When? During Blackburn's ill-fated
Champions league campaign I think he was injured or played in defence. As
a teenager he was scoring goals for Norwich against the likes or Bayern
Munich and Inter.
> needed a new hero. Owen is no better than at least 20 or 30 other very
> good young players out there. He isnt amazing, or incredible or great.
> He just has the potential to be a very good player.
You cannot find another 20-30 young players in the rest of Europe that have
made such an impact in their first full season as a professional. You don't
seem to understand it's his first full season, how many times do I have to
repeat it until it sinks in? Off hand only Raul made a similar impact in one
of Europe's top leagues at the same age. Montella made an equally massive
impact in his first season in Serie A but then he's older
> I dont see how this can be qualified as some versatility, when to me it
> actually confirms the standard of Premiership defending (and striking)
> that these two guys did the role quite comfortably.
Next you'll be telling us Arsenal have a shit defence, Seamen is a crap
`keeper and Schmeichel only looks good playing against Premiership forwards.
> Very true if you want to be purely statistical. Shearer also looked very
> very ordinary for his club team in Europe (was it lack of servise once
> again ?)
Let me see Shearer was a flop in his first ever foray into European
competition, so was Maradona for Barca over a decade ago. Up until his injury,
Shearer was averaging a goal a game but then scoring in World Cup qualifiers
or friendlies doesn't count right? Shearer's record is even more impressive
considering he's lost about 24 months this decade due to injuries.
> IMO he has more of an instinct than Romario or Shearer and any other
> striker in the world. If Shearer picks up a loose ball in the middle of
> the field his instinct is to either look to hold up the ball for a wide
> player, or to run toward the sidelines and try to hit it off the player
> for a corner...Ronaldos instinct is to score. His zone is wider....and
> his instinct more natural.
And if Ronaldo is in the box getting marked and has to latch onto a ball in
a split second and put it away he can't do it, if he is forced to volley or
try and overhead kick he can't do it, he certainly can't head the ball as
well as Shearer. The likes of Romario and Shearer are far more complete than
Ronaldo, he can only run and shoot, the other two can do it all, both feet,
in the 6 yard box surrounded by defenders, volleys, overhead kicks, shots
from range etc, etc, split second, instinctive finishing `penalty box
thieves' as Lippi said referring to Inzaghi.
> Shearer has dominated the English scoring charts and failed with
> Blackburn to make any impact in Europe.
And Ronaldo did bugger all for PSV in his first season in Europe and Barca
went out to a Russian team in the first round of the EC a few years ago but
then that's the beauty of European competitions, a good team and good player
usually gets a second chance to impress. Shame Shearer was injured during
Newcastle's run in the EC but of course now you'll claim is Shearer was in
attack instead of Asprilla he would shoot blanks.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 29 / 242 lines
> From: Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> at Seascape Designs
> Early round scores...still couldnt do it when it mattered.
Actually I think he scored in that tie, David James let them down.
> each other. Thats his decision. Sutton IMO presents Hoddle with a
> tacticaL change that he doesnt want, and coupled with the problems he
> has ie...Sutton not playing the B games..then there you have it. You
> might think he may do England proud, but the WC will not be poorer
> because Sutton is at home...
He will give Hoddle more goals than Sheringham, if far better at holding the
ball up and if you've watched him play you'll also realise he also creates
goals.
> De La Pena (SP)
Played several years at Barca, can't get a regular place. Good at playing
through balls.
> Zalayeta (URU)
> Olivera (URU)
> Pellegrin (URU)
When they do something in their respect leagues then you can compare.
> Babandinga (NIG)
Yes, he shines in a two team league at a club that gets close to 100 league
goals and his finishing is awful.
> Anelka (FRA)
Yes, Anelka has had a far better season than Owen.
> Trezeguet (FRA)
Biggest choker I've seen, boy did he look good for France against Brazil in
the World Youth Cup and incredibly he recently repeated the impossible
against Spain, even I could have put away those chances. Nice fluke goal
against Man United but then Owen also scored against Man United away.
> Riquelme (ARG)
Only one you've listed who's possibly better.
> Adailton (Bra)
Hard to judge until he gets regular playing time at Parma. IMO Owen's equal
in terms of finishing, Owen has more pace.
> Henry (FRA)
His shooting is piss weak and can't handle physical play
> Aimar (Arg)
He's not even as good as Riquelme never mind Owen.
> Roy Mackaay (Hol)
He had potential at Feyenoord but going from one league with crap defending
(Holland) to another (Spain) and still not making any sort of impact isn't
very impressive
> I agree with a good deal of the rest except that you must realise that
> Ronaldos goals involve so much energy that it is amazing that he scores
> at that ratio. Thats amazing. And yes he is the worlds best player.
No, he's called Del Piero and at the same age had already won more than
Ronaldo, is far more creative, has a better scoring record in European
competition and about the same strike rate at International level despite the
fact he isn't a striker.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo - The Benny Theorem of Stri 70 / 111 lines
> From: Paul Mettewie <pan...@ix.netcom.c at The Year of the Dragon
> Celebratio
> who wants spectacle. In the USA those types watch professional
> wrestling, in Europe I guess they just flick on the telly and watch
Hey Riff when you're N.W.O. you're N.W.O. for life!
Alex Mizuki
Kareem Elwakil wrote:
> You hit the nail right on the head. Benny is always talking
> about first time strikes and all that other crap.
Benny's is a pathological case. I find it amazing that he
is still a Ronaldinho detractor. With yesterday's game
with Spartak, he broke yet another record as the top
scorer as a first year foreigner in all competitions
(Serie A, and Cups), surpassing Zico's record of 35 goals
Ronaldinho has met or surpassed everyone's expectations
in Serie A (especially Benny).
Alex Mizuki
Michael Winnett
In article <35363CEC...@geocities.com>, esse (extr...@geocities.com) writes:
>
>
>Kenny Green wrote:
>
>> That victory over Parma was a Tactical victory for graham, but noone
>> could claim that Parma were outplayed. It was a great victory that
>> season though.
> I count that win a bit lucky. Smith scored out of nothing, Tino hit the
>goal post with Seaman beaten.
You don't get anything for hitting the post or most of the results
in the world would be different, all Arsenal had to do was beat
Parma, and they did so, without really breaking sweat, despite
missing two key players, and with David Seaman playing with two
broken ribs. If Ian Wright and J Jensen had been playing, Parma
would have been very lucky to escape with 0-1
>
>> Well call me blinkered. The back four is essentially the same, and have
>> played in the same style as in the past.
Well, I don't know how often you've watched Arsenal, but I've only
missed two games this season (couldn't get a ticket for Shite Fart
Lane as they're converting it to a football stadium or
something;-) but you're quite wrong.
The back four isn't quite the same, firstly Keown is first choice
ahead of Bould now at centre-back, George had him playing as a
midfield man-marker, and the centre-backs are encouraged to come
forward much more. Frequently Adams is to be found in the
opposition penalty area, you may recall that, against Newcastle he
narrowly missed with a cross-shot from inside the box, at the time
he was Arsenals most advanced player.
To say that the back four is "essentially the same" misses the
point of what Wenger has been doing at Arsenal. Certainly that
point has not been lost on some of the teams that have been beaten
by arsenal this season, but it seems that some people never tire
of regurgitating the same old bollocks that was heard 50 years ago,
that Arsenal are always "negative", that Tottenscum are always
"entertaining", etc. What is "essentially the same" is that the
defence is solid, and doesn't concede a lot of goals, but if they
did suddenly start to concede lots of goals, you wouldn't be
posting to this newsgroup about what a huge improvement there had
been, and how much you loved the new, leaky Arsenal, you'd be
droning and moaning about something else.
>> Viera and pettit are good, but
>> add no real creativity to the midfield (Arsenals weakness)
>
> Not at the current moment.
Well, I'd agree that they are not the most attacking midfielders in
the world, but their job is to win the ball and give it to Overmars
and Bergkamp. Vieira is very young and will improve, I think he's
a terrific prospect, unfortunately he suffers from wearing the
Arsenal shirt because he has acquired a reputation as a "dirty"
player, though if he were playing for some mediocre outfit he
would be "enthusiastic". Pettit and Vieira are a good
partnership, they cover for each other, and are a key part of the
team. Arsenal play as a team, not as individuals, the teams that
play as individuals are to be found at the foot of the premier
table, desperately scrabbling for points, and kicking anything
that gets in their way, though of course, they're never criticised
for their "gutsy", "determined", performances the way that
successful clubs like Arsenal are.
>
>> and Bergkamp
>> still has to prove that he is as good as he is at Premiership level,
>> when he treads foreign turf.
>>
>
> Havesn't he already done that ? All those years with Ajax. All those
>games with The Netherland. Where've ya been ?
precisely
>
>> Arsenal are still a Work in progress...which is promising, but apart
>> from the recent blackburn goal storm, I dont see much difference
>> defensively between this team and Grahams, and that is where Arsenals
>> strength lies.
>
> Ooh, what a statistical troll. Because of all those one-nils to the Arse
Teams progress by scoring more goals than they concede. That is
the way football works, and always has done. It's pathetic to
bleat about it and to whine because Arsenal take on opposing teams
and beat them by scoring more goals (or goal as the case may be;-)
that's the way of the game, if you don't like it, why not watch
basketball or baseball? They're both good sports, and are often
high-scoring, if the rules of soccer don't suit you either find some
other sport that you like better, or see if fifa will change the
rules for you.
If you can get fifa to change the rules so that a team has to win
by two clear goals, fine, but till then a 1-0 or a 4-2 will do just
as well, though the Arsenal defence just don't like to concede
goals, which is why in 1993, when we won the league, only losing
one game all season, that defeat only came after Steve Bould had
been carried from the field on a stretcher. When I used to play
park football, as a full-back, I didn't like to concede goals
either, I never scored many, so I didn't often get that buzz that
you get from scoring a winning goal, but I certainly did get
staisfaction from keeping a clean sheet, and, in my experience,
that is the way most footballers feel. Defences that concede lots
of goals aren't, in some mystical way, to be admired, (except by
idiots;-), they concede lots of goals because they're crap, that's
all there is to it.
If you prefer teams that let in lots of goals, may I suggest you
get yourself down to Tottenscum asap, where you can sing glory
hallelujah all the way to the Vauxhall Conference. Don't expect
to see "entertaining" football though, as they only have one
decent player in the team, and contrary to the kind of myths that
you seem to thrive on, they're the biggest bunch of cloggers in the
Premier at the moment, you won't read that in the papers though, no
they'll be full of bitching about how unfair it is that the media
darlings, Moancheater, are having their butts kicked by Arsenal,
who are obviously vastly inferior, no matter how many times they
beat them. (twice this season, btw;-)
Paul Grave
Benny wrote in message <892771...@benman.demon.co.uk>...
>Re : Anelka
>> And we gave him away for free, what nice guys we are. I can laugh about
it
>> now :-(
>Bollocks, last year everyone was having orgasms about Anelka, complaining
>about Arsenal stealing him and now you can laugh about it? Please. He's a
You'll notice that the smilie indicated I was being sarcastic.
>gifted player with massive potential. Arsenal got Anelka for free and PSG
>paid Milan several million for choker Simone, I reckon Arsenal and Milan
got
>the best deal.
We've got Simone, a wonderful player worth every penny we spent, and Milan
have Kluivert! HAHAHA
Paul Mettewie
Benny wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 33 / 84 lines
> > From: ma...@cornell.edu (Max Attar Feingold) at Cornell University
>
> > Good 'ol Benny, never changes a bit. Makes me feel as if I had
> > never been gone...
>
> <Max swiftly hunts through Dejanews>
>
> What he did in Brazil doesn't count. He's proven himself in Europe.
And what you said before didn't count. You've "proven" yourself in RSS.
- Riff "How you've proven yourself is another matter though" Ster
Paul Mettewie
Benny wrote:
> When he starts scoring scissor kicks, overhead kicks, volleys and classical
> poachers goals in the 6 yard box I'll like him, until them seeing him run
> past defenders, round the `keeper and score exactly the same way every week
> will continually fail to impress me. Unlike you Riff I've seen him do it
> over 100 times and after about the 20th time it gets boring.
What about the first goal against Spartak???? If that isn't a
"classical poacher's goal", then there isn't such a thing. Ronaldo
is sitting in the small box, a cross bounces off a couple of
defenders' legs, and Ronaldinho out-reacts everyone and
sticks in a hugely important goal that Romantsev admitted
broke the spirit of his team. Next point (non-point) ?
Well, one more thing you've lost to Ronaldinho......the list
goes on and on and on and on........
And how many scissor kick goals are scored in a year by
a player? And don't scissors kicks qualify for "circus trick"
status, thereby rendering them almost useless in your view???
Your dog-of-an-argument isn't just chasing its' own tail,
it is eating it as well.
> > Benny would swoon if the Terminator signed a contract with
> > Meewan.
>
> He's a fag.
Okay -- if you say so, Benny.
- Riff "Benny reports from Hollywood" Ster
Massa Sugano
Chris Raistrick wrote:
>
> On 15 Apr 1998 20:00:35 -0400, kca...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin
> Cabral) wrote:
>
> >BTW, I think Rhubarb misunderstood my parody of Benny-thought entirely.
> >The only weird stuff coming out of this thread is originating from Ingerland.
>
> Do us a favour.
>
> Please don't associate Benny with England. He's a wannabe Italian
> with a gloryhunting Milan fetish.
Benny is English football philosophy taken to the extreme. His obsession
with diving, his praise of leg-breakers, and the like have nothing to do with
calcio italiano.
Rhubarb and Benny, btw, have much in common.
Massa Sugano
(..................)
Marcelo Weinberger
Massa Sugano (sug...@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Benny is English football philosophy taken to the extreme. His
: obsession with diving, his praise of leg-breakers, and the like
: have nothing to do with calcio italiano.
No, Benny (whatever this Internet entity is) may understand these
elements of English football philosophy and tries to adhere to them on
a rational level, but he doesn't feel them in his veins, because he
doesn't feel football at all. Benny learnt (or tries to learn) football,
which is totally different from having football as part of your culture.
--
Marcelo
Kareem Elwakil
>That's the biggest load of bollocks I've ever read
No it's not. Read your own post. You can just tell by the response you've
gotten from people from all over the board. You simply don't know what
you're talking about.
Kareem Elwakil
>That's the biggest load of bollocks I've ever read, have you seen him
attempt
>a first time strike, I have and he blows. Players that score many first
time
>goals operate in the 6 year box and have the ability to pull off their
>markers at the right time, you don't see Ronaldo do that because that's
>not his game, his game is running from 20-30yds.
As a matter of fact, I have seen him attempt a first time strike, and, it
was against Milan!!!!! It was beautiful chip right over Rossi. That didn't
blow at all. If you remmember, Inter smashed Milan 3-0 in a championship
match, where it counts. Face it. Ronaldo is the best in the world, and you
probably know it. While some loyal Italians will say Del Piero is better -
deep down they are amazed by the phenomenon Ronaldo.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and how EASY it looks... 21 / 79 lines
> From: "Kareem Elwakil" <ka...@ici.net> at The Internet Connection
> You hit the nail right on the head. Benny is always talking about first
> time strikes and all that other crap. In order to first time strike - you
> need a near perfect pass from your teamate. Ronaldo, unlike just about
That's the biggest load of bollocks I've ever read, have you seen him attempt
a first time strike, I have and he blows. Players that score many first time
goals operate in the 6 year box and have the ability to pull off their
markers at the right time, you don't see Ronaldo do that because that's
not his game, his game is running from 20-30yds.
> Subject: Re: Benny and how EASY it looks... 24 / 38 lines
> From: Alex Mizuki <gt7...@prism.gatech.edu> at Georgia Institute of
> Technology
> is still a Ronaldinho detractor. With yesterday's game
> with Spartak, he broke yet another record as the top
> scorer as a first year foreigner in all competitions
What are you talking about? He's played in the UEFA Cup with PSV.
> (Serie A, and Cups), surpassing Zico's record of 35 goals
He may be the highest scoring foreigner in his first season in Serie A, but
Nordahl (Milan) only played 15 games for Milan in his first Serie A season
and scored 16 goals.
> Subject: Benny and how EASY it looks... 29 / 56 lines
> From: "Luiz M. Franca-Neto" <fra...@leland.Stanford.EDU> at Unknown
> Benny, you've never played soccer yourself, have you?
Yes I have.
> For the untrained-eye, when Pele, Maradona (ok, I'll concede!),
> Ronaldo, and some others play, soccer looks something easy to play.
Who said it was easy? All I saw from Maradona was hype and circus tricks
and from Ronaldo the same goal every week.
> As for the goals using scissors kick, etc, etc, you should remind
> yourself even Marcelo Balboa (US) can do it ... However, entering the
> defense, carring the ball *underneath* (not ahead as a hockey player, as
> many lacking skills European to-be-dribblers use to do) is a
> job very seldomly you find a player able to perform with elegance. It's
I have seen a player dribble past several players and score hundreds of times
Ronaldo does it every week, Del Piero does it, Zola does it, Baggio, Weah,
I've even seen players in England do it. you rarely see more than 5-6 scissor
kicks in a season and just in case you're confused a scissor kick is
different from an overhead kick.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 21 / 39 lines
> From: "Paul Grave" <pa...@pgrave.demon.co.ukFUKSPAM> at Unknown
> You'll notice that the smilie indicated I was being sarcastic.
Sorry, I didn't notice, I'm not up on these Net symbols.
> We've got Simone, a wonderful player worth every penny we spent, and Milan
> have Kluivert! HAHAHA
True but Milan will be laughing when they sell Kluivert for a profit of
several million and then he'll finish top scorer for his new club but that's
football for you.
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo (Owen = Yanagisawa) 38 / 56 lines
> From: Paul Mettewie <pan...@ix.netcom.c at The Year of the Dragon
> Celebratio
> Well, one more thing you've lost to Ronaldinho......the list
> goes on and on and on and on........
I'm not the one who can't bring himself to admit that there are things the
likes or Shearer, Inzaghi, Montella can do that Ronaldo can't. There are only
two things Ronaldo does better than the others - dribble and read the offside
trap.
> And how many scissor kick goals are scored in a year by
> a player? And don't scissors kicks qualify for "circus trick"
By Circus tricks I mean ball juggling.
> Okay -- if you say so, Benny.
> - Riff "Benny reports from Hollywood" Ster
Come on Riff, you like garbage like Terminator 2, Titanic and the other
countless crap churned out by Hollywood? Try watching Goodfellas or better
still Man Bites Dog, now there's a class film if I ever saw one but maybe
the fact that it's subtitled and in black & white will put you off.
Paul Grave
Benny wrote in message <892861...@benman.demon.co.uk>...
>> We've got Simone, a wonderful player worth every penny we spent, and
Milan
>> have Kluivert! HAHAHA
>True but Milan will be laughing when they sell Kluivert for a profit of
You hope.
>> And how many scissor kick goals are scored in a year by
>> a player? And don't scissors kicks qualify for "circus trick"
>By Circus tricks I mean ball juggling.
I can't remember any game were Zidane juggled the ball yet you dislike him
because of his "circus tricks".
Tell me more about "circus tricks".
Ariel Mazzarelli
Rhubarb <rh...@noway.jose> dixit:
>Kevin Cabral <kca...@freenet.columbus.oh.us> wrote in article
>>
>> Smart and ruthless "World Class leg breakers"? I guess that's how they
>like
>> them in Benniland? Oh for the good old days when brutality ruled on and
>off
>> the pitch. When the Iron Lady ruled and the Tough Men stood proud. But I
>> guess moral decadence has conquered all...
>>
>I am always amazed how little understanding of the game
>and it's history we see in posts that originate in non soccer
>cultures. This is a good example. BTW, I am not condoning
>any of these tactic. In Italy they have always had a non-football
>way to augment their football, it's the only means they have
>of getting to the top - I should add their football is good but
>not good enough by itself. One time they were famous for hacking
>players ruthlessly. Now they use the sly dive and play the
>referees.
Does an insular culture count as a non-soccer culture? I suppose that would
be a bit unfair.
But this is fair: If I were going to post that the Italian slyness was of
recent vintage, I too would use a phony name.
Ariel
--
++++ stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++
++++ see http://www.pacifica.org/democracy/mumia/index.html ++++
Ariel Mazzarelli
Marcelo Weinberger <mar...@fc.hp.com> dixit:
Ahem!
You guys know very well that it is improper to air out this kind of
psychological analysis in a public forum. The Committee takes great care
to protect the privacy of its patients, even after their treatment has
been given up as hopeless.
Ariel Mazzarelli
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> dixit:
>We shall indeed see. I have put a bet on England to not make the second
>round. Got great odds too. And though I think they might, it wouldnt
>surprise me if they lose out to Colombia and Romania.
Just out of, oh, shall we call it "curiosity", what were these odds?
Ariel Mazzarelli
Marcelo Weinberger <mar...@fc.hp.com> dixit:
>Benny (Be...@benman.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: I don't care for the World Cup or International football for that
>: matter. I'm only interested in the EC and as you know Maradona never
>: won the EC, club football's biggest prize therefore I don't rate
>: Maradona and no matter how many times you say he can bounce the ball
>: off his arse or how many circus tricks he performed he didn't win the
>: EC.
>
>Doesn't this qualify as the RSS gem of the century?
I don't know about that--eg Irineu must also be considered for his assertion
that Coutinho was on Diego's level... however, if you take into account
that Irineu suffers from that peculiar brand of exaggeration that only a
brasuca can display, then I'll have to think of another contestant.
Also, remember that we still have a couple of years to go in this century.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 25 / 43 lines
> From: Massa Sugano <sug...@fas.harvard.edu> at Harvard University
> Benny is English football philosophy taken to the extreme. His obsession
That's not English football philosophy, it's my philosophy, don't paint
everyone with the same brush.
> with diving, his praise of leg-breakers, and the like have nothing to do with
> calcio italiano.
Sounds like a definition of Italian football to me.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo (Owen = Yanagisawa) 18 / 36 lines
> From: "Paul Grave" <pa...@pgrave.demon.co.ukFUKSPAM> at Unknown
Re : Selling Kluivert for a profit
> You hope.
So you think at best Milan will break even and sell Kluivert for nothing?
> I can't remember any game were Zidane juggled the ball yet you dislike him
> because of his "circus tricks".
I dislike him because he's not as effective a playmaker as people make out,
to me a playmaker is responsible for creating goals and Zidane hasn't created
as many goals as Del Piero, Inzaghi, Walem, Totti and Nedved yet he's
considered one of the best playmakers in the World.
> Tell me more about "circus tricks".
Ball juggling, drag-backs, fakes all the flash shit. I don't like them
because they are generally not effective, if it results in a goal then great
but more often than not it doesn't.
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and how EASY it looks... 17 / 33 lines
> From: "Kareem Elwakil" <ka...@ici.net> at The Internet Connection
> No it's not. Read your own post. You can just tell by the response you've
> gotten from people from all over the board. You simply don't know what
> you're talking about.
All it shows is they are as equally gullible and consumed by the hype as you
are.
> Moratti about Ronaldo: " There are no more adjectives to describe this
> player"
Moratti on Ronaldo a few months ago :
"He is not himself, he is playing badly. I don't know what his problem is but
he's certainly got one."
When asked if Ronaldo was in a state of crisis Moratti said "It seems like
that to me and he'd do well to get that into his head".
Such a great man this Moratti bloke.
> As a matter of fact, I have seen him attempt a first time strike, and, it
> was against Milan!!!!! It was beautiful chip right over Rossi. That
> didn't
Like you said it was a chip, by first time strike I mean Weah's 3rd against
Atalanta or Del Piero's volley this week against Monaco the type of goals
Ronaldo doesn't score.
> match, where it counts. Face it. Ronaldo is the best in the world, and
> you probably know it. While some loyal Italians will say Del Piero is
> better - deep down they are amazed by the phenomenon Ronaldo.
Del Piero has won 2 league championships and a EC, Ronaldo has yet to win a
league championship. Del Piero has the same number of goals as Ronaldo
(despite the fact that he's not a centre-forward), more goals in Europe and
triple the number of assists so you tell me who's better? You can sing the
praises of Ronaldo all you like, bottom line son he hasn't won a league
championship. He can win all the FIFA Player of the year awards for the next
decade for all I care, until he wins a league championship and a EC he's not
even close to being the player you think he is.
Sheen Ikegaki
Benny wrote:
[snip]
> > match, where it counts. Face it. Ronaldo is the best in the world, and
> > you probably know it. While some loyal Italians will say Del Piero is
> > better - deep down they are amazed by the phenomenon Ronaldo.
>
> Del Piero has won 2 league championships and a EC, Ronaldo has yet to win a
> league championship. Del Piero has the same number of goals as Ronaldo
> (despite the fact that he's not a centre-forward), more goals in Europe and
> triple the number of assists so you tell me who's better? You can sing the
> praises of Ronaldo all you like, bottom line son he hasn't won a league
> championship. He can win all the FIFA Player of the year awards for the next
> decade for all I care, until he wins a league championship and a EC he's not
> even close to being the player you think he is.
Since when have Serie A and EC been individual competitions?
-Sheen
Kareem Elwakil
>Del Piero has won 2 league championships and a EC, Ronaldo has yet to win a
>league championship. Del Piero has the same number of goals as Ronaldo
>(despite the fact that he's not a centre-forward), more goals in Europe and
>triple the number of assists so you tell me who's better? You can sing the
>praises of Ronaldo all you like, bottom line son he hasn't won a league
>championship. He can win all the FIFA Player of the year awards for the
next
>decade for all I care, until he wins a league championship and a EC he's
not
>even close to being the player you think he is.
Del Piero hasn't won 2 league championships - Juventus has. As a matter of
fact, his season before this one haven't been superb. Juventus wins not
because of their attack, but because of their powerful midfield and defense.
With players like Zidane, Descamps, and Dilivio, how can you go wrong.
Juventus strikers are easily replaced. Belive it or not, if Juve does
manage to sell Del Piero, they will easily manage to find someone who can
score just as well. As long as they maintain their powerful midfield and
defense, they will always be front runners. Winning championship cups
takes team, not a single player. Del Piero is expendable, Ronaldo isn't. I
wonder what you'll be saying when Ronaldo holds up the World Cup trophy. He
has other players around him who are also considered great players, and, he
is simply unstoppable. Well right now, he is two points away from winning a
league title. And knowing his ability, it is definitely within reach.
We'll see where Del Piero bring the struggling Italy in the World Cup.
,Kareem
Sheen Ikegaki
Benny wrote:
[snip]
> > I can't remember any game were Zidane juggled the ball yet you dislike him
> > because of his "circus tricks".
>
> I dislike him because he's not as effective a playmaker as people make out,
> to me a playmaker is responsible for creating goals and Zidane hasn't created
> as many goals as Del Piero, Inzaghi, Walem, Totti and Nedved yet he's
> considered one of the best playmakers in the World.
Wow. You invented the truly original playmaker theorem where Zidane is forced
to compete with the likes of Inzaghi and Totti.......
Excuse me, but I cannot help but doubting that you have ever played football for
more than one year. In your perspective, football must be grossly simplified to
look like ice hockey.
Cheers,
Sheen
--
*** Eric's Japanese Football Web Site ***
http://www2.gol.com/users/ericv/jfoot/
"A formidable work by a writer who let a splendid new light into Japanese
football." --- Anonymous
Sheen Ikegaki
Benny wrote:
[snip]
> > Okay -- if you say so, Benny.
>
> > - Riff "Benny reports from Hollywood" Ster
>
> Come on Riff, you like garbage like Terminator 2, Titanic and the other
> countless crap churned out by Hollywood? Try watching Goodfellas or better
> still Man Bites Dog, now there's a class film if I ever saw one but maybe
> the fact that it's subtitled and in black & white will put you off.
You inadvertently revealed part of your personality by saying that Titanic was
garbage and that "the fact that it's subtitled and in black & white will put
you(*which means just Benny himself, psychologically speaking) off."
Now it is natural that you don't like either Ronaldo or Zidane.
Actually, Titanic matches Goodfellas in terms of cinematography, narrative
efficiency and compositions of mise-en-scéne. A brilliant job by Hollywood.
Zidane is a mixture of film noir and Hollywood romance made by potential
communists before World War II. You'll never understand his beauty.
Cheers,
Sheen
Benny
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 23 / 40 lines
> From: rob...@ihug.co.nz (Robert Chapman) at The Internet Group Ltd
> Benny - Consider this. Why should Ronaldo bother to score tap-ins in the
> 6 yard box like (as you say) dozens of strikers can, when he can
> complement these 'common' players by scoring 'running goals' out of
> nothing that no-one else is capable of?
Typical Ronaldo fan, you are under the illusion that the types of goals
Linekar, Muller, Van Basten, Klinsmann scored could be scored by anyone
and if Ronaldo wanted to score those types of goals he could right?
For a definition of strikers read Steve's post on the 16th.
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo 30 / 49 lines
> From: chris.r...@usa.net (Chris Raistrick) at Virgin Net Usenet
> Service
> Please don't associate Benny with England. He's a wannabe Italian
> with a gloryhunting Milan fetish.
Oh, yes, we haven't got close to a league title in 2 years and I haven't
jumped to Juve or Inter.
> He can't stand Ronaldo because Ronaldo played in Spain and he can't
> accept that many of the best players in the Italian league were bought
> from Spanish clubs.
I didn't know Del Piero, Inzaghi, Zidane, Nedved, Bierhoff and Batistuta came
from Spain?
> He's probably loving this thread because you are attacking English
> Football, which he couldn't care less about.
I love English football, I love the direct, physical style, the classical
strikers.
> Subject: Re: Benny and Ronaldo - The Benny Theorem of Stri 23 / 41 lines
> From: "Paul Grave" <pa...@pgrave.demon.co.ukFUKSPAM> at Unknown
> Sorry to disappoint you but all of them have the same job, to score goals.
> Tell me, in the history of the game of football, when has it ever matter
> how a goal is scored?
I said it matters to me.
> Tell how you define "finisher"?
Steve defined it best, read his post.
> I was under the impression that a "finisher" comes from "finishing" a team
> manoeuvre by putting the ball in the net?
So that makes Ronaldo is a classical finisher, that makes Zola a classical
finisher because he's great at free kicks and thus finishes team manoeuvres?
Kenny Green
Ariel Mazzarelli wrote:
>
> Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> dixit:
> >We shall indeed see. I have put a bet on England to not make the second
> >round. Got great odds too. And though I think they might, it wouldnt
> >surprise me if they lose out to Colombia and Romania.
>
> Just out of, oh, shall we call it "curiosity", what were these odds?
>
> Ariel
> --
Ariel,
I got 50-1 at the bookmakers the week after the draw was announced...
I put 75 pounds on it....
Kenny
Ariel Mazzarelli
Rhubarb <rh...@noway.jose> dixit:
>
>
>Paul Mettewie <pan...@ix.netcom.com>
>
>[ lengthy diatribe from someone analysing themselves in a typically
> American fashion deleted ]
>
>> field against one another or watching Arsenal face Chelsea
>> or Sao Paulo against Botafogo....it makes one feel a little
>> more alive and in the world.
>>
>> I know you like soccer Benny, I just wonder what part
>> of it you love.....
>>
>> - Riff "Taking you down memory lane..." Ster
>>
>Riffster, don't dwell on it, just get on with it. I just like watching
>as part of a big crowd.
>
>Now, if Ariel or whoever could just give Riffster his post of the
>week award he just tried so hard to win.
Ok, that's enough! This thread is getting too many nominees for post of the
week, of the century, and who knows what else.
I hereby declare that NO post from this thread will get the Post of the Week.
Maybe that'll improve matters.
Ariel
--
Ariel Mazzarelli
Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> dixit:
>Ariel Mazzarelli wrote:
>>
>> Kenny Green <gre...@mail.globalnet.co.uk> dixit:
>> >We shall indeed see. I have put a bet on England to not make the second
>> >round. Got great odds too. And though I think they might, it wouldnt
>> >surprise me if they lose out to Colombia and Romania.
>>
>> Just out of, oh, shall we call it "curiosity", what were these odds?
>>
>> Ariel
>> --
>
>Ariel,
>
>I got 50-1 at the bookmakers the week after the draw was announced...
>
>I put 75 pounds on it....
50-1???????????????????????????????
Holy shit. This may be worth the investment of a one-day r/t air ticket.
And I may have to buy you dinner in gratitude!
Sheen Ikegaki
Ariel Mazzarelli wrote:
> Rhubarb <rh...@noway.jose> dixit:
[snip]
> >Now, if Ariel or whoever could just give Riffster his post of the
> >week award he just tried so hard to win.
>
> Ok, that's enough! This thread is getting too many nominees for post of the
> week, of the century, and who knows what else.
I hope I'm one of the nominees.
> I hereby declare that NO post from this thread will get the Post of the Week.
> Maybe that'll improve matters.
No. This kind of threads are indispensable for the likes of me who need the
subject for projection to deal with their own cognitive disorders.